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View Full Version : What's the most important quality in a BBEG?



Talic
2007-12-18, 06:12 AM
A lot of people design their BBEG's in different ways, and everyone has their own idea on what makes a truly memorable villain. My question is, what's are the important qualities in a multi-session boss? Feel free to give examples from your current campaigns to illustrate the qualities you bring to the table.


For me? The casual disregard for others. Whether it's a minion, a partner, an enemy, or a small town downriver from his leaky poison factory, the true villain doesn't care about the consequences of his actions, as long as they don't affect his own personal goals.

Bag_of_Holding
2007-12-18, 06:14 AM
Being Big, Bad AND Evil.

squishycube
2007-12-18, 06:20 AM
The BBEG should inspire some kind of negative emotion in the PC's. She can be disgusting to look at, be very frightening (this one can be very hard to pull of), do things truly vile and wicked (instead of just wanting to get power), etc.

For an evil party facing a BBEG this works to, maybe with other emotions (fear still works, obviously), jealousy is a good one

Talic
2007-12-18, 06:25 AM
The BBEG should inspire some kind of negative emotion in the PC's. She can be disgusting to look at, be very frightening (this one can be very hard to pull of), do things truly vile and wicked (instead of just wanting to get power), etc.

For an evil party facing a BBEG this works to, maybe with other emotions (fear still works, obviously), jealousy is a good one

Oh, most certainly. Evil can very easily be convinced to fight evil... All the BBEG needs to is interfere with the evil group's plans. Even accidentally.

Diakos
2007-12-18, 06:35 AM
Self loathing is one of the most unpleseant feeligns around, so if the antagonist, can invoke that in them, make them draw parrallels between them and he antagonist, or even better manipulating them into doing his/her "dirty work", than s/he is sure to earn their antagonism.

For maximum efficiency if you know a really good experienced RP'er, make him join the group either at start or somewhat and then after several big events, have him betray them, possibly having planted evidence to make them seem guilty of crimes, tuning the authortities/citizens against them and ideally themselves against each other.

That gives a lot of tension and loathing towards the antagonist (maybe even have him be manipulated from further up...)

stainboy
2007-12-18, 06:41 AM
Presence. The most memorable BBEGs are the ones whose presence is felt throughout the game, not just the guy you know is going to be in the last room of the last dungeon sublevel. You don't have to have him constantly show up to taunt the party, but his personal touch should be evident throughout the story. The PCs should know his methods, his motivations, and at least a little of his personality before the final confrontation.

The archvillian is the closest thing the DM gets to a PC, and the challenge is expressing his character without having him in the room most of the time.


Oh, and crunch-whise, he should be immune to every save-or-die ability, save-or-suck ability, and cheap spell combo the party has access to, as well as being protected or out of reach to the point that the party's damage dealers can't just burn him down in a round or two. His tactics should be threatening without relying on abilities that quickly kill or incapacitate party members and thus remove them from the fight early. Every character should have an opportunity to contribute to the fight in a unique way.

Fuzzy_Juan
2007-12-18, 06:53 AM
The capability to hold their own against the PC's...without that, he may be bad and evil...but not really 'big.

Goals that are far reaching in scope...things that require many minions to accomplish, lots of intrugue. Without that, it is not a multi-session vilian since he will reveal himself right away and likely get stomped unless vastly superior to the PC's.

A damn good reason for said goals...without a reason, the BBEG is just a random lunatic...with nothing really bad or evil, just inconvenient. The terrasque is big, and very 'bad' in the sense that it will destroy and devour everything...but it is not malicious, nor does it give a rat's ass what it does so long as it feeds. It is a force of nature, no more 'evil' than a hurricane...it simply is. It doesn't have to have a sensible reason...BBEG often have an overdeveloped sense of revenge and take disproportionate revenge for even the slightest insults...like deciding to eradicate an entire race because 2 guys of that race picked on him as a kid and he always wanted revenge...

Try to avoid 'glass cannons' like Babylon 5's Cartagia...he was bad...insane...evil...he had purpose...a grand psychotic design that would allow for the world to burn for his own ascention to godhood (in his own mind). But he was just a schmuk in the end...If Vir can kill him alone...it just is pretty lame...While it can be 'fun' to have the real mastermind be a 1st level commoner with a silver tounge and delusions of grandeur...in a DnD world, this just means that no matter what beefy people follow him or protect him, he is just dead...and fast too.

Someone who is a BBEG must inspire fear and terror in those who oppose him...and in those who follow him. And not just the PC's...but the players. They must be truely horrified of what might happen if they continue opposing this guy. maybe not just because of the BBEG alone, but of the power and minions he has at his disposal....moving against this person should be a daunting feat which must be carefully done to avoid being squashed or overrun.

(In a Council of Wyrms game in 2nd ed DnD...the BBEG I created was a dragon named Flashfire, a bastard homebrew half red-half blue dragon (how I hated when they called him purple...he was striped damnit!:smallfurious: ) The story was that this dragon was cast away when he was born as an abomination but he survived and returned to take over. His immunities and unique dual nature alowed him immunity to the two strongest dragon's breath and also allowed him to combine lightning and fire in a single blast of immense power. Even though he wasn't a great wyrm, his 'flashfire' was strong enough to floor any dragon who was not red or blue...Also, due to his red heritage, blue couldn't stand against him and niether could reds due to the blue in him...later it was revealed that he had started his own dragon eugenics program where his followers would cross breed and with the aid of magics try and ensure more hybrid dragon offspring...(all to bring the dragon races closer to Tiamat and IO). The players were a few dragon PC's and a couple of Dragon Slayer PC's who had to team up and stop his plans since if left unchecked it looked like he would take over all the chromatics and then who knows what the crossbred evil dragons would do to the good dragons. It was a grand battle of the old guard against the young dragons (many young dragons joined since hybrid dragons could typically defeat much older dragons...they wanted to make their heirs stronger than the elders who would be in power forever otherwise in the era of current peace)

The real kicker was (according to my backstory for him) that Flashfire had survived by polymorphing into an elven form and joined the dragonslayers, learning from them and studying wizardry as well...when the PC's and their helpers finally faced off against Flashfire...it was against his elite core of adult hybrids, his red dragon mate, 5 fairly high level humanoid 'slaves' and Him...all who had recieved dragonslayer training...it was brutal...but awesome...

CASTLEMIKE
2007-12-18, 07:52 AM
Generating experience points by dying or being defeated so the PCs gain experience along with treasure. A memorable BBEG is frosting on the cake.

Tyrmatt
2007-12-18, 08:01 AM
Cutting it close. When the PC's drive him off, leave them within an inch of their life and have him depart with a soul splitting scream and the promise to get them and their little dog too. No one remembers a battle where they walked all over the enemy, nor do they remember a crushing defeat. A narrow victory by a razor thin margin where skill or luck won the day is a truly lasting victory.

warmachine
2007-12-18, 08:19 AM
For me, the BBEG must believe he's doing good rather than out of selfishness. It's just that his methods or philosophy are atrocious. For example, Redcloak is fighting for his downtrodden race. Or Magneto from X-Men who forms the Brotherhood of Mutants. The lieutenants believe in this cause too, fight hard for it and have answers for the PC's accusations.

Telonius
2007-12-18, 08:30 AM
He's gotta be evil, and he's gotta do it with style. He's gotta be, not just badass, but really badass (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0434.html).

Kompera
2007-12-18, 08:40 AM
A lot of people design their BBEG's in different ways, and everyone has their own idea on what makes a truly memorable villain. My question is, what's are the important qualities in a multi-session boss? Feel free to give examples from your current campaigns to illustrate the qualities you bring to the table.

A slow unfolding of understanding for the players. Drama, suspense. The first interactions between the players and the more epic BBEGs doesn't even require that the players see or learn of the BBEG. They only need to have enough information to put it together somewhere in the middle, a la "Hey! Remember the smuggling ring we busted up 8 sessions ago? Well, one of the smugglers said <foo>, and we saw some <bar> in their lair. That must mean that the guy we're after now was their organizer!" Or something to that effect.

And the truly epic story arcs are definitely "multi-session" Bosses.

Reinboom
2007-12-18, 08:46 AM
Not actually evil.
Really.
I don't like playing with alignments. It makes for some really interesting BB'E'Gs.
Just has a different goal from the party that the party may or may not exactly agree to.
Oh, and multiple BB'E'Gs helps in this. Let the party choose who is more evil.


For the encounter itself? They should be designed in such a way as to test all of their abilities. Something that allows every character to shine.

TimeWizard
2007-12-18, 09:07 AM
I for one am incredibly against "I'm a crazy psycho with no care or sympathy for anything, so let's kill 'em all, mwahahaha" because it's cheesy and nobody really gives a damn. It's like a villian cop out. Memorable characters are defined by the perfect flaws- why is the BBEG doing this? Maybe he doesn't want to, but he has to for reason outside his control (i.e. to stop the ascent of an even greater BBEG for long running campaigns/ dead wife/ or the trite but tried and true revenge). Really, Kefka was cool in Final Fantasy 6, but crazy psychos make much better lieutenents or enforcers then they do BBEGs. Let's try the Simple Story Well Told approach to the villian X.

X the Villian
What is X's past before s/he turned evil?
Why did X turn evil?
Was anyone else involved?
What is the main flaw of X?
Now that X is evil, what are X's immeadiate goals?
What does X consider to be his/her final goal?
What other things does X need to accomplish the final goal?
How many risks does X take? Is X a chessmaster villian knowing every move the PC's make in advance, or does X like to gamble with plans and try to speed up his/her final goal?
How does X react when PC's screw up his plan? Furious anger or cold calculation?
Does X fight his/her own battles? Why?
What ends would X go to to save his failing plan? Outsiders?
What do you want the PC's to feel when they think about X? Hatred? Betrayal? Sorrow?

The best villians have some characteristic people can identify with, some impulse or weakness that they feel in their own lives.

Jayabalard
2007-12-18, 09:13 AM
believability. Realistic motivations, goals, strengths, flaws, etc.

Saph
2007-12-18, 09:48 AM
I think squishycube nailed it. Ability to inspire negative emotions, the big ones being fear and anger. You want the PCs to hate the guy's guts, but also be terrified of him.

I don't think good intentions, a long character backstory, or realistic motivations are important at all. If you make the BBEG scary enough, the PCs will be way too busy running away or fighting for their lives to ask themselves "Now, what does this guy really want?"

If you look at the most successful villains from books and movies, you usually find they're neither sympathetic nor well-intentioned. Sauron isn't made out to be a remotely sympathetic character in LotR. Darth Vader might have been well-intentioned once, but he isn't by the time of Episodes IV and V (and the Emperor never was). Sephiroth's an insane killer with delusions of godhood and yet one of the most popular game characters of all time. And the Xenomorphs from Alien can't even talk, much less express their motivations. Didn't hurt any of their successes as BBEGs.

- Saph

Reinboom
2007-12-18, 09:54 AM
Following up to Saph's...
I think it actually might depend what type of campaign you are running - as well as mood.
Sauron makes a great villain.
Jon Irenicus from baldur's gate 2 wouldn't of done well for me at all if I didn't get intent, motives, etc. on the other hand.

Falrin
2007-12-18, 10:04 AM
A Flaw that 'prevents' him from killing the PC's.

Arrogant: Nice for a starter. Attacks the PC's, but overestimùates his forces.

Sadistic: Makes a DM feel warm and fuzzy. Watching them suffer is more important then killing them, can go from relatives to 'dopplgangers serial killers'.

Agressive: Relatives ressurected, Dopplegangers killed. Send in to much without thought. Great for a 'tactical' PC-victory.

Deadly Calculated: What got him in his position takes over again. When going face to face he'll use deadly spells, Coup-de-grace without mercy and use his most vicious minions and abuse every weaknesses he can find.

valadil
2007-12-18, 11:51 AM
Recurring - I know you said long lasting BBEG, but I wanted to emphasize this. I want my character to hate the same evil throughout the game. I've been in a bunch of games where you kill the bad guy, only to have it revealed that he was but a puppet and the real evil is another castle. Storywise you're much better off fighting one guy over and over.

Make it personal - In my first game ever I failed at giving the players a reason to hate the BBEG. When it came time for them to fight him they decided they should join him instead. I'm all for choice, but I wasn't prepared for this at the time.

Justifiably Evil - Sure you can have a being of pure evil that kills as easily as he breathes, but that's boring. I find characters like that are easily dismissed. I'd rather have something that the players can relate to, but is terribly misguided. Nobody ever sets out knowing that they're evil - in their own head all their actions are justified to their own idea of a greater good. Players will resent your BBEG more if he actually believes he's right.

AKA_Bait
2007-12-18, 11:55 AM
Presence. The most memorable BBEGs are the ones whose presence is felt throughout the game, not just the guy you know is going to be in the last room of the last dungeon sublevel.

Agree. This is why having some signature thing, a tattoo on minions, a particular article of clothing, or some other style is massivley important. When the PC's are being screwed with they should know who is responsible.



Oh, and crunch-whise, he should be immune to every save-or-die ability, save-or-suck ability, and cheap spell combo the party has access to, as well as being protected or out of reach to the point that the party's damage dealers can't just burn him down in a round or two. His tactics should be threatening without relying on abilities that quickly kill or incapacitate party members and thus remove them from the fight early. Every character should have an opportunity to contribute to the fight in a unique way.

And this is why I love liches.

Attilargh
2007-12-18, 12:10 PM
Being a Magnificent Bastard (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagnificentBastard) never hurts. See also the Villain tropes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Villains) from TV Tropes (www.tvtropes.org).

Emperor Demonking
2007-12-18, 12:11 PM
He should have something memorable about him. He should be smarter than the players.

Most of all he should iether be cool or magnificent.

Prometheus
2007-12-18, 12:14 PM
Realistic Motive: Being evil for the sake of evil is not a good enough reason. Although harmful to the world, the BBEG should have a vision for the world that he controls. Most of the time this has been power, but has also been revenge, hatred, religious fanaticism, desire for immortality, communism, imperialism, order.'

Success: The most powerful BBEG must be successful at what he does, and loved by his allies for it. He must have some part of him that is absolutely an indispensable resource - making it all the worse when he doesn't use for the right side.

Complicated Combat: Whether it involves a slew of allies, a strange setting, homebrew abilities, or multiple forms (that have to be defeated consecutively), the battle should be long and present some unusual tricks to it. One had to be stopped before he flew to the ceiling and then transformed when defeated. Another moved so fast he could be anywhere as a five-foot step and had multiple arms with reach.

Snadgeros
2007-12-18, 12:14 PM
A really good laugh and memorable personality. See: Kefka, A.K.A. The Best Villain Ever

Lady Tialait
2007-12-18, 12:16 PM
I like BBEGs you feel pity for..and they know it!

Maldor Cyrenian Fallen Palidin who lost his palidanhood when he turned into a vampire.

Lady Misilus A powerful Wizardess who learned how to summon feinds to help her plauged contry and got turned into a Sucubus

things like that..the party (if good) will want to help them not kill them.that makes it harder

barring that I like the Means and power to distroy the party...and totally willing to do so.

Seffbasilisk
2007-12-18, 12:27 PM
I prefer BBEG's that convince the PCs to work for them (either by pretending to be good, offering a good reward, training, etc etc) then turn on them when they fail to complete the task they were given (often when they find out all the details of the plot.)

Kompera
2007-12-18, 01:13 PM
I don't think good intentions, a long character backstory, or realistic motivations are important at all. If you make the BBEG scary enough, the PCs will be way too busy running away or fighting for their lives to ask themselves "Now, what does this guy really want?"They are. Or at least, they should be. The implacable evil dude is so one dimensional that it's cliche.


If you look at the most successful villains from books and movies, you usually find they're neither sympathetic nor well-intentioned. Sauron isn't made out to be a remotely sympathetic character in LotR. Darth Vader might have been well-intentioned once, but he isn't by the time of Episodes IV and V (and the Emperor never was).Sauron is an example of an implacable and one dimensional BBEG. Darth Vader, in contrast, was a BBEG whose background and familial connections to the good guys led to his conversion to good right when it mattered the most.

I like my BBEGs to be like comic book villains rather than literature villains. The best villains in comic books are those who have some motivation other than simple destruction or evil doing.

The Silver Surfer: Forced into the role of Herald to Galactus. A good man with a good heart who had led Galactus to world after world for Galactus to feast upon. Heroes freed him from this destiny.

Magneto: An ultra powerful mutant who hates and wishes to destroy all humanity. Why? Because humanity has treated his kind with fear and loathing, and he wishes to champion their cause. Magneto would be a good substitute for many civil rights champions, were they to have had his power.

The examples can be endless...

Good villains love someone or something very much. A person, a country, a class of beings, a cause. These are not two dimensional villains. This love shapes their actions, and the heroes can possibly use this love to end a fight or change the actions of the villain.

Lyinginbedmon
2007-12-18, 01:25 PM
I've had a couple of effective BBEGs. The first was Meredith Nussulheim, 1st High Maester of Grimdolf. She's a Pixie Loremaster, who specialises in the use of Telekinesis...on Small longswords of wounding...50 of them. Now, this isn't her only terrifying quality, she's also extremely emotionally messed up. She has relationship issues because she's pretty much a sadist, with the perspective that anything that isn't a threat is a potential new toy to do with as she pleases.

After that was the BroShaCho Trio, specifically their "face": Alabaster Bronislav. He wasn't exactly "evil, vile, and horrid" per say, in fact despite being a Blackguard Lich his aim was to take over the world to unite it and make it better. However, the players just kept on loathing him because inevitably they would get tangled up in his plans and be treated like puppets, he was really hated when he stole one of the players' mucho-expensive magically-enchanted boat.

Moofaa
2007-12-18, 01:26 PM
I had a recurring telepath villian that the party was pretty much scared to death of.

Probably cause during one encounter he mind controlled another PC who was about to vent everyone out of the airlock of their own ship so they had to gun him down. (he did survive tho, I think)

They were trying to figure out what this guy was up to, since he had done some pretty evil things and apparently was trying to track down and kill the party.

Anyways, while exploring an abandoned ancient alien facility they ran into him in this lab room. He was undergoing some sort of brain surgery. They kill his bodygaurds without too much trouble when the main villain stands up. Now, the top of his skull had just been re-attached, and he wasn't obviously prepared for a fight. ( I actually didn't expect the PCs to be where they were at that time).

One of the players decided to rush forwards, kick him in the nuts, and shove him backwards over a table. And with their typical luck managed to roll 20s doing just that.

They could have finished him right there. Don't get me wrong, this guy was pretty strong but 5 PCs with heavy automatic weapons could easily have burned him down in a single round or two.

Apparently I did such a good job of making this guy frightening through my decriptions, they all turned tail and ran...

Best moment ever in one of my games I think.

Saph
2007-12-18, 01:52 PM
Good villains love someone or something very much. A person, a country, a class of beings, a cause. These are not two dimensional villains. This love shapes their actions, and the heroes can possibly use this love to end a fight or change the actions of the villain.

What if you don't want the heroes to end the fight or change the villain's actions? Personally I find the "I'm a good guy really" villains much more cliched than the evil ones. It feels like the writer (or DM, in this case) is trying to preach to me. Listen, I know you spent ages creating this guy and I know you find his backstory really fascinating, but right now I'm much more concerned with the fact that he's trying to kill me!

This is the reason comic book villains get so silly after a while. Because the writers are so invested in keeping them around and making them tragic characters, they have to keep on coming up with convoluted and not-very-convincing reasons for the heroes to team up with them or let them go or put them on a bus, rather than just killing them off, even when it makes absolutely no sense. (So Magneto has just murdered another few thousand people and we've captured him? Let's put him back in prison, I'm sure there's no way he's going to escape a fifth time.)

- Saph

Toliudar
2007-12-18, 02:01 PM
Intelligence is what separates a BBEG from a big behemoth encounter. He/she plans, learns, changes in response to what the heroes do. In an ideal world, the campaign evolves as a kind of dance between the PC's and the BBEG. Moves and countermoves.

Xuincherguixe
2007-12-18, 02:27 PM
I like having several BBEGs, all who's schemes and plots take on a labyrinthine quality. Manipulator's being manipulated. There might not be a single overpowering evil thing.

I'm a fan of antagonists who make life hell for players but are completely apathetic to it. Or getting outraged when their inept and seriously lacking efforts to help them aren't returned met with love and worship. Arrogant and unable to see their own flaws.

That and confusion. Where it becomes impossible to tell what the right decision is, and they seem to have all their bases covered. Mind you this kind of villain can get pretty annoying and may not be appropriate. If they are to be beaten, one needs to use insane thinking to rip them out from their webs. Especially nasty masterminds shouldn't fall to pieces when something slips away, instead making the best of the situation. An excellent time for the players to manipulate the target instead.

Insane BBEGs are great too. They don't have to be stupid berserk psychopaths either. Maybe the guy is loopy enough to think that the Lord Quagamungo will bring the turnips of triumph if he bakes 56,432 people into a large pie delivered by a large herd of sheep, but the guy might still be capable of large scale manipulation. Or if one is feeling cynical, It might be totally obvious the guy is nuts , and lying, but they march along anyways. The opposition could be the many followers who either don't know about the bizarre pie scheme, or wish for the honor of being part of the great pie.

And of course there are the misguided villains who think they're doing good, and the villains who work with the party as their goals intersect. The best way of handling the latter? They don't betray the PCs. They might even be forced to betray the villain instead.

Deepblue706
2007-12-18, 06:40 PM
The most important quality a BBEG must have is influence - He or she must be able to influence the world around the PCs, or they will fail as tools to entertain the players. Whether their influence comes from being an intimidating brute-like warlord, a manipulative politician, a bandit king, a monster with magical powers...it doesn't really matter. A BBEG can be a mastermind, a zealot, a shambling mass of pure, abyssal evil, or a number of other things - but the players will not care unless this villain plays a part in what is going on. And to play a part the PC will enjoy and remember, the BBEG must have influence.

Second would be stage presence.

BloodyAngel
2007-12-18, 07:25 PM
I love my evil villains! One of my favorite was foreshadowed a long way away. I think a evil villain should be felt long before he is seen, making the final battle with them that much more nasty.

One of my personal favorites... In one long running game, a recurring villain named Talik showed up. He was a tiefling druid, the half-brother of a priestess in the party. She found out that her mother had been one of the big, bold adventuring types, and had tried to slay a powerful half-fiend named Baal back in the day. Her group failed. After a few months of abuse, she gave birth to not one, but TWO tieflings. She was rescued by a paladin, who slew Baal, but the children were stolen by his minions and raised to be the mighty warlord his father was. Only, he wasn't. He was small and far too mortal for them. Constantly falling short of being the powerful demon he thought he should be, he went for revenge on his mortal family, blaming them for killing his father. Talik made a great villain, because he was cruel, ruthless, merciless, and sadistic.... But really, he was just a young man who was desperately trying to live up to his father.

I liked Tallis because he KNEW he was evil. He was TRYING to be evil. He was trying to act like he thought a demon should act. He caused hell, attacked cities, killed people without any mercy... and tortured a beloved NPC to death in front of his own sister (who went a smidge nuts after that and became mute). All because in some way... he wanted dad to be proud.

All the better when, almost 3 months of game later, long after Talik was killed for his henious crimes... The group finds out that Baal DIDN'T die way back when. He performed the ceremony to become a lich before he died, and had regenerated a long time back. The group, remembering how hard it had been to face Talik... was horrified at facing the thing that Talik was desperately trying to be like!

Baal was nasty in the extreme... and the group DID manage to beat him... but only due to the very noble sacrifice of the party's knight, who held him off just long enough for the priestess to burn him to cinders with holy spells. Baal also gave one of the best lines I've had for a villain in a while. "Do I know you? You look like a woman I used to know." Said with a sadistic laugh... at the priestess who's mother he had raped. :smalleek:

Leliel
2007-12-18, 07:52 PM
The most important quality, to me, is sympathy.

True, it helps for the villain to be terrifying, malicious, and just plain sadistic.

But I'm also with Terry Pratchett in that villains that have no depth beyond their "villain" persona are just egocentric dullards, and evict no emotional response from the players beyond "kill, kill, kill". While it's good to have a truly evil villain once in a while, all of them have to have a reason beyond just love of destruction. In my opinion, the best villain is, although it is made clear why that the players have to kill him, makes them think why they have to as well. A good example is M____s Yggdrasil from Tales of Symphonia. Look him up, if you're not afraid of spoilers.

[Shameless Plug] This was also design philosophy I had in mind for my non-evil lycanthrope campaign BBEG, Erebin Pullusia. Although I haven't finished putting up his (long, long) backstory yet, he's basically what would happen if Martin Luther King Jr. repersented werebeast civil rights, and did a Face Heel Turn. He very consciously knows that a lot of what he does is wrong, but he's afraid to admit that his methods (basically, "violent, manipulative protest") are wrong. I think he's a very complex and sympathetic character. Then again, I am his creator, and if you want to juge him, you can find the thread on the Homebrew forum.[/Shamless Plug]

Glorytome
2007-12-18, 11:57 PM
i agree with saph in the sense that "bad guys are really good guys" are certainly cliched, and somewhat of a let down as a bad guy. but i still need my BBEGs to have a certain amount of depth. i never liked sauron as a villian, for instance, as i always felt he was faceless and generic.

essentially, the bad guys are still bad guys (not good guys in disguise), but they're still human bad guys. i think nothing is truly scarier than a villian who can massacre, and destroy, and still seem realistic

Admiral Squish
2007-12-19, 12:03 AM
Truly enjoying the evil he does. Reveling in wickedness, laughing at the pain of others, showing casual disregard for the others around him if they get in his way, but intelligent about his cruelty. Smart enough to know how not to act really evil in public, and good enough an actor to fool those who he must.

Xuincherguixe
2007-12-19, 12:15 AM
Having read this (http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html)

shaddy_24
2007-12-19, 12:41 AM
Memorable. This is incredibly important.

I have an example, but it's from a new campagn, so I don't want my players to see it. So if any of you are out there, DON'T READ THIS!

Ok, I tried starting this campagn once. The players went on a short adventure together (all done on the spur of the moment), and ended up in a town (once again, spur of the moment, so no planning. I wasn't expecting this to become the campagn, I thought it was a one session thing). That night, the leader of the wizards' guild held a public meeting where he announced that he had successfully gathered up 6 artifacts of great power (6 gemstones, all different colors, that controlled sand of the appropriate color, each with a different power). He used this to take over the town violently, driving the players out and capturing most of the town's population.
That version of the campagn didn't work, so I restarted it, with the players living in the town and the mayor (a human woman named Sandra) takes over, driving out anyone who could oppose her. The players remember her, but they still worry that that wizards' guild leader is in there somewhere, waiting for them. He freaked them out. Funny part is, he's not in it, but there is another person above Sandra, that the players will start to deal with around 7 -8th level.
There's no raise dead type spells in this world, so the players are going to fight Sandra around 7th or 8th level and defeat her. They think she's gone, and her boss comes out of the woodwork, so they plan to move on. But she's a loyal servent of that guy, and still has her uses, so he has another follower take her soul and plant it into another body (that guy's going to be there when Sandra dies). He's going to take her soul into a gem upon her death, then put it into the body of one of the players friends (I've already planned out who). So she suddenly comes back from the dead, in a world where that's not possible, to continue following the players (getting more powerful to remain a challange to them, of course), but now in a friend's body. Is that memorable enough for you?:smallbiggrin:
And the big bad behind her does have a reason for what he's doing. He's going to use the stones to merge the worlds of the living and the dead, claiming that it will be better for everyone. But, it's mostly so he can see his dead wife again. I'm looking forward to it.

Wow, sorry, this is really long.

Zeal
2007-12-19, 12:43 AM
Memorability

I find that villains have to be memorable and the best ways to do this are to make the encounters with them memorable and unique and/or by giving them an obvious power over the PCs and having them damn well know it.

For example: A Demon-Lich type villain in one of my games called The Tomb King, he had the swarmshifter template and would always enter as a swirl of black dust, shredding everyone in the room before settling down into combat. In the first encounter, he awoke a gigantic undead-dragonkin army and, as it swarmed up from the depths of the huge crypt they rested in, he took one of the PCs (a powerful Half-fiend Telepath/Thrallheard) and threw him over the edge. A memorable entrance to my players. Also, he had a huge army and an enigmatic master plan, which intimidated the PCs immensely, as they were used to fighting mooks as opposed to a very powerful, very intelligent and very evil, essential immortal undead monster.

TimeWizard
2007-12-19, 12:51 AM
What if you don't want the heroes to end the fight or change the villain's actions? Personally I find the "I'm a good guy really" villains much more cliched than the evil ones. It feels like the writer (or DM, in this case) is trying to preach to me. Listen, I know you spent ages creating this guy and I know you find his backstory really fascinating, but right now I'm much more concerned with the fact that he's trying to kill me!

This is the reason comic book villains get so silly after a while. Because the writers are so invested in keeping them around and making them tragic characters, they have to keep on coming up with convoluted and not-very-convincing reasons for the heroes to team up with them or let them go or put them on a bus, rather than just killing them off, even when it makes absolutely no sense. (So Magneto has just murdered another few thousand people and we've captured him? Let's put him back in prison, I'm sure there's no way he's going to escape a fifth time.)

- Saph

I whole-heartedly disagree in a friendly way. The sympathetic villain can easily be mis-handled, especially if the DM or storyteller is trying to 'show off' their woe-is-me-itude. A well handled one is extremely memorable and moving, like Suitengu from Speed Grapher (anime). If you've seen it through, you feel a lot for his character, even if he did descend into a world-hating psycho. You sympathize with him, or are afraid to allow yourself to sympathize with him- which shows masterful story telling. To use an earlier example of yours, people don't remember Sauron because he was a great, well developed villain. People remember Sauron because he was the opposition to a great, well developed protagonist(s). Sauron himself has little influence on the story at all, little in the story has to do with his direct interference- it's mostly just revelation of backstory. This is what he did and why we must stop him. The real antagonist of LotR is the despair and personal challenges faced by the protagonists. Then there is Alien. Alien's aren't villains, lacking any kind of motivation beyond eat/breed. Jaws wasn't a villain, essentially it's a man vs nature story. Sepheroth and Kefka are memorable because of the scope of their plans but mostly, and if I may get a little tangental because people won't stop with their outplayed obsession with the protaginists of those god-damned games. Whew, (been meaning to get that off my chest for a long, long time. On the subject of Final Fantasy anyone can easily say the best developed villains came from Tactics (PSone) and nobody woul seriously disagree with them. Oh sure you get a bit of split hairs here and there but to be honest this is the internet and you'd get that sort of thing no matter what declaration of opinion on a psuedo-intellectual topic you make. But beside the point is that Tactics had everything 7 didn't, a well rounded cast of opposing members, various and unique party members with unique skill sets, and most importantly a plot that while somewhat diced in translation was incredibly complex with a series, a whole series of understandable motivations, power plays, politics, scape-goating, and hierarchical villainy. To make a somewhat lame and no doubt mis-informed analogy FF7 is LotR: you care about the party members and ipso facto the opposition becomes memorable or gains memory points by proximity. FFTactics is A Song of Ice and Fire: the scale of conflict may be less but there's so much actual work going into who-hates-who and why that you feel a little lost in immersion until you're done and the whole thing percolates (mm, coffee) in your mind til you feel on the verge of popping like a school boys water balloon in summer if you don't get all of this out and discuss it with a fellow reader/player who as a peer has also experienced the work and provides campare/contrasting views.

*Air comes into body again*
So long story short I beleive you're opinion valid but personally biased in a unique and charming way that lies perpendicular to all I hold in literary truth and since I am a student of literature (read: a narcissistic prick) I hold these opinions to be, like truths, self evident and correct. I eagerly await a rebuttle, Sincerely Your Closest Friend,
XOXO
TIME.

Yami
2007-12-19, 01:43 AM
Mystery.

People, and PC's alike fear what they do not know. When my players fail their knowledge (planes), they fight paraniod, unsure of what this new creature can do. The same works with a villan. Perhaps when they face the BBEG the second time they've found out his powers, but that first air of mystery can really help make an encounter memerable. (Which is, in my opinion, the point.)

Signature and presence are important, but I do not feel they are more important than having the players unsure if thier master plan will even work. They might know that BBEG raises the dead, but if they don't even know if thier oppoenent is undead himself, or what he can do in combat... Well, it makes them fear him.

I agree that making your players hate the BBEG can be useful, but I still remeber one campaign where the party agree to have one of them undergo horrific experiments as they joined the BBEG as minions. And these people loathed him.

Talic
2007-12-19, 01:52 AM
Personally, I find that a backstory and a reason that a villain is doing something is something NEEDED.

BBEG's should not just be faced on a battlefield. Their goals need to be stopped, and the party needs to know what those goals are... They need to piece together the plan. If the backstory has tragic elements in it, great. If you can see HOW this guy became what he is, that's awesome, it develops an understanding of why he does it. I think that understanding is what disturbs players most, that they can identify, on some level, with the guy trying to put a deadly plague on all the platinum coins in the realm, to overthrow the rich. That is what gets people to really go after the BBEG.

Note, I don't want them to convert my boss. He's a dedicated sort usually... Megalomaniacal enough to be not-that-persuadable, and all that. But his problem is a real one, usually. Once, after killing a BBEG, I actually had a PC take up a quest to right the very wrong the BBEG was fighting, albeit in a more goodly way.

Make no mistake though, the BBEG had his head impaled on a greatspear by then. I just want them to figure things out, predict what's next... I want them to know that the BBEG has weaknesses to exploit as well, that, beneath it all, he's not perfect.

Just dangerous, dedicated, and EEEEEEEvil.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-12-19, 02:10 AM
It would be memorable not gaining any experience or treasure for defeating the BBEG and using up party resources in the process or even worse losing the amount of experience they would have normally gained due to a curse overcoming the BBEG.

Talic
2007-12-19, 02:12 AM
It would be memorable not gaining any experience or treasure for defeating the BBEG and using up party resources in the process or even worse losing the amount of experience they would have normally gained due to a curse overcoming the BBEG.

I suppose it would...

Memorable in the sense that your players would leave and not come back.

Keep in mind that you try to have FUN in this game. Rewards are part of that fun. People don't care if everything they do has no overall impact, and doesn't change anything, even themselves.

herrhauptmann
2007-12-19, 02:50 AM
The most important quality, to me, is sympathy.

True, it helps for the villain to be terrifying, malicious, and just plain sadistic.

But I'm also with Terry Pratchett in that villains that have no depth beyond their "villain" persona are just egocentric dullards, and evict no emotional response from the players beyond "kill, kill, kill". While it's good to have a truly evil villain once in a while, all of them have to have a reason beyond just love of destruction. In my opinion, the best villain is, although it is made clear why that the players have to kill him, makes them think why they have to as well. A good example is M____s Yggdrasil from Tales of Symphonia. Look him up, if you're not afraid of spoilers.

Carser from Night Watch is a good Pratchett villain who has no purpose beyond to kill and have fun. 'He had demons on both shoulders, egging him on.' I think he's also the only Pratchett villain like that.
Neil Gaimain's American Gods, There are pretty much 3 gods causing all the ruckus that Shadow must deal with. Loki and Odin are instigating a fight. While old Hinzellmann is doing his own thing in laketown, making him by far the most reprehensible of the 3 I think.

Biggest thing for me is being remembered. 3 things did that in my first group. Hearing that Lord Strahd was 'upset'.
Our party of 4 6th levels getting smacked around by a 10th level goblin named Blixx (think of Legend for characteristics).
And fighting Lond from the Ravenloft book 'A dance of the Dead'. That fight just took forever because he would not die. We were third level, he six or seven. We all worked our way through a meat grinder of foes at our own pace (my guy tried to free some slaves first) so we ended up challenging him in sequence, giving him enough time to smack us around, but not finish him. Bad tactics on our part, but awesome cinematic effect. Especially with our DM really getting into his part as Lond.

Edit: Some other things help with that too. If there's a long term BBEG that the PCs know and hate but can't kill yet, and a short term bad guy (werewolf for example) who's unrelated that the PCs can almost deal with now. If they wake up one day and there's a group of silvered weapons sitting on their doorstep and the only explanation is a note with the BBEG's symbol on it. Well, they'll use the weapons to kill the werewolf, but hate that they needed the BBEG's help. It gets worse if the day after the fight, the weapons disappear again with a note left behind saying "Thanks, I've been meaning to get to him for a while now"...... Well, they'll end up hating the BBEG even more, because now they realize they just did him a favor.

Saph
2007-12-19, 07:05 AM
To use an earlier example of yours, people don't remember Sauron because he was a great, well developed villain. People remember Sauron because he was the opposition to a great, well developed protagonist(s). Sauron himself has little influence on the story at all, little in the story has to do with his direct interference- it's mostly just revelation of backstory. This is what he did and why we must stop him. The real antagonist of LotR is the despair and personal challenges faced by the protagonists. Then there is Alien. Alien's aren't villains, lacking any kind of motivation beyond eat/breed.

But none of that hurts either Aliens or LotR. And that's the point. A BBEG doesn't exist to be a fascinating character, he exists to serve the needs of the story. There's nothing wrong with making the BBEG a simple antagonist and focusing on the protagonists instead.


On the subject of Final Fantasy anyone can easily say the best developed villains came from Tactics (PSone) and nobody woul seriously disagree with them.

Well . . .

You see, personally, I tried FFT after having played all the other Playstation FFs. And I did try to finish it, really. But in the end I gave up somewhere halfway through, and to be honest looking back on it now I can't remember what the story was supposed to be or who the characters were.

If you want an good example of a PS 1 game that does both, though, there's Suikoden II. That has a psychotic-evil-killer villain that you fight halfway through (Luca Blight), and a sympathetic used-to-be-on-your-side villain that you fight right at the end. The interesting thing is that both fights work. Luca Blight's one of the most memorable boss fights because he's so ferocious that he just won't die, and because he's so evil it's really satisfying to kill him. The battle right at the end is much more moving, but it's also more of a personal (and optional) sidequest that happens after the game's effectively over.

- Saph

CASTLEMIKE
2007-12-19, 07:07 AM
I suppose it would...

Memorable in the sense that your players would leave and not come back.

Keep in mind that you try to have FUN in this game. Rewards are part of that fun. People don't care if everything they do has no overall impact, and doesn't change anything, even themselves.

I agree the game is about having FUN and "most" of the time gaining experience and treasure defeating BBEGs is part of that foundation with the DM not seriously trying to take out the PCs.

I use suggested wealth by level so it is easy to make to up the suggested wealth in the next adventure or start them off top heavy into the adventure or before encountering the BBEG.

Don't forget a simple Restoration spell would restore any lost experience points and most good temples would probably be happy to perform it for the PCs if there are no casters able to do it in the party. Your PC knows he took out a major BBEG if he suffers level loss due to the negative energy of his passing if it only happens once or twice in a campaign.

PCs could have picked up a lot of treasure before dispatching the BBEG so there should be no issue in your game if he gets away with everything on his person or an occassional lingering effects of evil from the Book of Vile Darkness is nice since it comes in different grades.

However it is nice occassionally to throw the players a curve particularly with the monsters and keep them on edge which is part of the fun for the players and the DM.

Use a "Green" goblin sorcerer instead of a "Blue" psion.

"Sometimes" the only reward is the satisfaction of a job well done like saving the world or defeating the BBEG or one of his minions and stopping their nefarious plans this time.

Maybe a celestial manifestation light the clouds parting and shining on the PCs who gain a limited amount of Action Points if they are not normally used in your game. They can't be stolen or purchased in game. They are limited. They are good for addressing terrible rolling by a PC or by letting them take a reroll or an extra action.

Sometimes the PCs shoot themselves in the foot MDJs or the original Head of Vecna adventure where each PC who cut off their head died because of player greed because they wouldn't wait to get to town and consult a sage.

I had a great DM who killed 4 of the players in a group of 6 who insisted on gaining the power of the head despite arguing and threatening to kill other PCs if they didn't help them chop off their heads after watching player after player choose to cut off their head which killed them. I was one of the 2 who didn't die. This sucked up a lot of party resources raising the other players from the dead but it also made for a nicer game in the long run.

It was one of my most memorable games I have ever played and never forgotten and I have used it twice with similar results.

Your thread OT is "What's the most important quality in a BBEG?"

My first post on page 1 of this thread was Rewards "experience and treasure" with memorable being frosting on the cake.

Not all BBEGs need to be memorable. In plenty of campaigns the PCs never learn who the BBEG really is even with divination magic because of intermediataries (BBEG Minions) and anti divination magics. I like immortal Devils stirring a lot of pots who takes an interest in the PCs after they disrupt a plot and more of an interest after the second plot they disrupt since they are becoming troublesome now.

Most of the thread posts are the PCs knowing who the interesting, memorable BBEG is or the BBEGs are. It's a lot more fun for the player's to Keep them guessing and keep them on edge.

P.S. the Soul Locked template from Heroes of Horror is nice for a single BBEG in the campaign.

pendell
2007-12-19, 09:35 AM
My thoughts :

1) The villain must trigger an emotional response.

This is tailored to the players at the table -- you want this to be a villain that they *loathe*. That they absolutely despise and will move heaven and earth to beat.

An example of this is LOTR. Notice that spiders make prominent appearances in both Hobbit and LOTR as villains. My understanding is that Chris Tolkien (JRR's son) had a real aversion to spiders, so naturally his dad made sure to throw a couple in to keep things interesting .

Tapping into the phobias of the players around your table is absolutely fair play. For instance, if they all despise cats, Prooowwwl the Lord of All Cats might be a candidate villain, or at least a minor boss.

2) The villain must have *style* .

Xykon is a perfect example of this. He shouldn't simply be a non-descript villain with nothing to remember him by. he needs a schtick, a calling card, something that makes it stick in everyone's memory that *this* is the villain's trademark. An example from Forgotten Realms would be Artemis Entreri and his jeweled dagger.


3) The villain's presence should be felt everywhere, but the villain should never be on-camera.

An example of this , again, is Sauron in LOTR or Takhisis in Dragonlance. You can see the activity of minions everywhere, but the chief villain himself is hardly ever on screen. There all kinds of backstory elements (for instance, they're traveling through a wasteland and an NPC chimes in 'these used to be gardens until war passed through' . Or they're talking about their long-lost homeland and how the enemy managed to destroy it. Or they talk about the theft of the good dragon eggs and where they came from). There should be plenty of stories *about* the BBEG, and there should be plenty of minion-beating, but the BBEG him/herself should make actual appearances rarely. The more often the BBEG shows up, the more cheapening the effect of his presence. Plus, the more opportunities you give your characters to one-shot him :).

4) The villain should be at least on a demigod level of power.
Why? Because you don't want this to be three rounds and out. Takhisis, again. There are a number of ways to win the dragonlance campaign, but engaging the Queen of Darkness in direct combat is -- outside of very carefully controlled story conditions -- an automatic loss. You WANT your PCs wetting themselves in fear. Which means that the BBEG needs to be either an ultimate killing machine, or nigh-invulnerable. Either way, you want to make them *think* there way through this. You want them to complete the quests that will enable them to lower the BBEG's plot shield so that they can actually beat 'em.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Attilargh
2007-12-19, 10:46 AM
4) The villain should be at least on a demigod level of power.
What? Why? If the villain's level is that high, what's stopping him from just teleporting next to the heroes and ending the game there and then?

Leliel
2007-12-19, 10:55 AM
Carser from Night Watch is a good Pratchett villain who has no purpose beyond to kill and have fun. 'He had demons on both shoulders, egging him on.' I think he's also the only Pratchett villain like that.
Neil Gaimain's American Gods, There are pretty much 3 gods causing all the ruckus that Shadow must deal with. Loki and Odin are instigating a fight. While old Hinzellmann is doing his own thing in laketown, making him by far the most reprehensible of the 3 I think.


My apologies, most shallow villians. Carcer is one of the few egocentric geinuses in Prachett's work. Still, that book also contains Vetinari, who may not even be villian, just an antihero who comes into conflict with the protagonists of Discworld on occasion.

And of course, there is Lord Rust, who is an egocentric dullard.

TimeWizard
2007-12-19, 11:46 AM
But none of that hurts either Aliens or LotR. And that's the point. A BBEG doesn't exist to be a fascinating character, he exists to serve the needs of the story. There's nothing wrong with making the BBEG a simple antagonist and focusing on the protagonists instead.



Well . . .

You see, personally, I tried FFT after having played all the other Playstation FFs. And I did try to finish it, really. But in the end I gave up somewhere halfway through, and to be honest looking back on it now I can't remember what the story was supposed to be or who the characters were.

If you want an good example of a PS 1 game that does both, though, there's Suikoden II. That has a psychotic-evil-killer villain that you fight halfway through (Luca Blight), and a sympathetic used-to-be-on-your-side villain that you fight right at the end. The interesting thing is that both fights work. Luca Blight's one of the most memorable boss fights because he's so ferocious that he just won't die, and because he's so evil it's really satisfying to kill him. The battle right at the end is much more moving, but it's also more of a personal (and optional) sidequest that happens after the game's effectively over.

- Saph

You are correct, psycho killer types can be interesting and, while my better instincts don't like saying this, memorable. I just don't feel for them the same way that I feel for well developed villains- but I see your point about villains existing only for the sake of neccesity. I just don't care about those villains as much. Kudos to Suikoden II by the way, that was a great game.

AKA_Bait
2007-12-19, 12:21 PM
The most important quality, to me, is sympathy.


I sort of agree with this. Sympathy is important for the right kind of Villian. I think a better word for what you mean is 'Humanity' though. A good Villian needn't be tragic or pitiable (although they can be) but they should be comprehensible most of the time.

Occasionally though, something that goes 100% the other way can be effective too. cough Cuthulu cough.

meet shield
2007-12-19, 01:09 PM
For me the best quality of a BBEG is the hate of the pg: every character need a valid motive for fight him, not only "save the world" you know.
Every character have to have a personal motive: save one particolaur person, ravenge, stole an object of his family... something other.
In this mode when the BBEG come out from the shadow every character think: now you are mine.
And the final fight will be undimenticable, cause every pg fight for his life and for his dreams.
So, the BBEG have probably to be LM, cause is the mind of the EVIL.

meet shield
2007-12-19, 01:11 PM
For me the best quality of a BBEG is the hate of the pg: every character need a valid motive for fight him, not only "save the world" you know.
Every character have to have a personal motive: save one particolaur person, ravenge, stole an object of his family... something other.
In this mode when the BBEG come out from the shadow every character think: now you are mine.
And the final fight will be undimenticable, cause every pg fight for his life and for his dreams.
So, the BBEG have probably to be LM, cause is the mind of the EVIL.

Roderick_BR
2007-12-19, 01:32 PM
Tapping into the phobias of the players around your table is absolutely fair play. For instance, if they all despise cats, Prooowwwl the Lord of All Cats might be a candidate villain, or at least a minor boss.

Actually, using a player's phobia must be handled VERY carefully. If the player feels that you are targeting him personally, instead of the character, with something that upsets him on a personal level, he may feel offended and give up the game.
As an example, there's this woman I know, that has an irrational fear of snakes. I saw her feeling ill and turn off the TV because it was showing something about snakes in it. If she were to someday play D&D, and I started to throw snakes in the game, she'd pick her purse, stand up, turn around, and walk away, maybe to never return to the game table again.
If the person, however, is afraid or something, but not to the point of it being an actual phobia, then it's fair to use it as a way to show it's dangerous.
And using something that just annoys people (like the cat example) is interesting to keep the player motivated.

alchemyprime
2007-12-19, 03:13 PM
I know he wasn't a BBEG, but my favorite antagonist of all time: JArlaxle. I plan on using him as a template for a villain.,

AKA_Bait
2007-12-19, 03:24 PM
Actually, using a player's phobia must be handled VERY carefully.

I would actually discourage doing it at all. The game is supposed to be fun for everyone and someone with a real phobia of something (rather than just thinking bugs are icky for example) and you make the BBEG something that taps into that they probably aren't going to be having much fun.

However, if the PC has a phobia, that's another story...

Felius
2007-12-19, 03:37 PM
First, it must be something the characters will oppose either by need, desire or both. Even if they agree with its motives, even if they were, and maybe still are, best friends, make him something they will oppose. How depend on the motivation of your players. You could even use a character who is a champion of virtude and honor, but feels that his friends are one the biggest threats to goodness, and therefore must be stopped at all costs.
Second, as it have been said, it must trigger an emotional response. Don't really matter which, if it's love, hate, etc. Just try to not cause lust. That doesn't work!
Third, as it have been also said, it must be memorable. Your players may hate that damn troll that they fought last week, and took a couple characters down, but he will be forgotten in a few weeks.

Justin_Bacon
2007-12-20, 04:46 AM
A lot of people design their BBEG's in different ways, and everyone has their own idea on what makes a truly memorable villain. My question is, what's are the important qualities in a multi-session boss? Feel free to give examples from your current campaigns to illustrate the qualities you bring to the table.

Loathability.

IME, the quickest way to make the PCs loathe a villain is to have the villain thwart them. Describe the ravages of Sauron and they're as likely to forget his name as they are to remember him. Have Bill Ferny loose their mounts, OTOH, and they'll never forget it.