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ZeroNumerous
2007-12-18, 06:42 AM
Designer's Notes
Playing through FFT again got me thinking.. I want to run a campaign involving Zodiac Stones. The problem? I don't know what to do if/when my players get a hold of a Zodiac Stone. A quick Google search found nothing for already homebrewed Zodiac Stones in D&D.. So I threw something together and called it good.

Since only 7 of 13 were introduced in Final Fantasy Tactics, I've filled in the gaps with Final Fantasy 12's Espers. I went with FF12's spelling for Velius/Quecklain/Adramelk, mostly because it seems to have been translated much better versus FFT's horrific translations..

Also, Elidibs sucks.

Legend
Dec. 25 - 'A Zodiac Stone? Pah! Legends and old wives tales intended to give hope to the ignorant.'

That was what I would have said a day ago.. But.. This book. These stones. They have shown me something.. Something strange. A day ago, a friend of mine arrived with a few crystal orbs and a journal. He said I might be interested in learning what these orbs were. They were flawless and round, perfect in all ways..

January 2 - I did some research, and I discovered that the stones I had were three of the actual Zodiac Stones! Pisces. Aries. Taurus. Powerful things.. Just holding them makes me feel more powerful, more alive!

January 3 - I feel that I am going no, I have gone, insane. I hear things, creatures, whispering to me in the darkness of my mind. It calls to me. It calls itself.. The Impure King. It tells me no, commands me to search for the other stones..
-Last entry of the wizard Demelus.

Before the Planes as they are existed, there were only the Gods. The Gods existed in the endless limbo of the Astral Sea with nothing yet made. These Gods, powerful and limitless, created the Material and filled it with Life. They breathed so much Life into that plane that another plane burst into existence beneath it. This second plane would come to be known as the Underworld, and it is where the Gods would rule while watching the Material. But, as all things do, the work of keeping the Upperworld and the Underworld running grew tiresome to even the immortal gods. And ever so slowly, they grew disillusioned with the Upperworld and it's Life.

The Gods thought up a brilliant plan, a plan most cunning indeed. They created Espers, beings who existed solely to perform their duties, and then breathed Life into them as well. They created twenty-four Espers. Twelve Espers of the Upperworld and Twelve of the Underworld. The Gods instilled each Esper with it's purpose, and it was a grand purpose indeed. They existed to run all of existence, so that Life may flourish and grow. And they did as they were told. For a time, a short time, it was good.

Of the Scions, these Esper workers, little is written. Possibly because many kept their existence out of the Material Realm, as they were instructed. The twelve Espers of the Upperworld would become known as the Scions of Light, being perpetually bathed in the light of the sun. While the twelve Espers of the Underworld would become known as the Scions of Darkness, beings forever scorned from the sun's warmth.

The Gods were all-powerful, but they were not all knowing. The Gods were none-the-wiser when the twenty-fourth Scion, the Scion of Light known as Ultima, began her traitorous thoughts. Ultima was the masterpiece of the Scions and she was tasked with leading the souls of the deceased to the Gods for reincarnation. The High Seraph, so called for her wings of brilliant gold, was the Gods' favorite Scion and worst enemy.

Ultima went to each of the twenty-three Scions that had been made and pleaded her case. The Gods were useless beings who did nothing but lounge about now that Espers did their work. She reasoned that they, the Espers, should be given their time to rest. And when Ultima began her revolution, eleven of them stood with her.

The first of them, and the least among them, was Belias the Gigas. Belias, made as half-man and half-beast, was deemed by the Gods to be a failed experiment. As pity, they gave the Gigas the task of guarding and regulating passage to the Holy Realm. His hatred at never receiving his true purpose grew with the passing of time. And he joined Ultima as soon as she whispered her poisonous words into his ears.

The second would come to be known as Mateus, the Corrupt. Mateus was tasked with the watching and care of the Underworld, where he would swim through it's waters to cleanse them. He ruled the living beings of the Underworld with a fair hand, and protected the Upperworld from it's inhabitants. However, he eventually submitted to avarice, and darkness flowed into his heart. Eventually, the greedy and corrupted spirit heard the whispers of power from Ultima. In his cowardice, the Corrupt bound a goddess of Ice as a living shield to do battle with the Gods.

The third would come to be known as Shemhazai, the Whisperer. Shemhazai was given total control over the souls of the Underworld inhabitants, and would be tasked with guarding the Gods from the living beings of the Underworld. She was forbidden to walk among the Upperworld, so that her clarity of purpose would remain pure. Jealous of the Scions of Light, but enamored with the grace and beauty of Ultima, Shemhazai would succumb to the Scion's treasonous thoughts. She fled to Ultima's side and whispered the weaknesses of the Gods into her ears.

The fourth would come to be known as Hashmalim, the Bringer of Order. Hashmalim was given the task of bringing Order to all things, and he walked among the Upperworld to lead the races away from the chaos of their birth. The Gods gave him power over the very world itself in order to accomplish his birth-given task. His desire to bring Order to all things would prove to be what felled the great Lord. The Gods were a seed of chaos in a perfect world, and Ultima's sweet words coaxed his support.

The fifth would come to be known as Famfrit, the Darkening Cloud. Famfrit was gifted with a clouded and revolting form, a form so revolting that even his creators deemed him an abomination. Famfrit was given control over the waters of the world so that he would be away from Underworld for long periods of time. Famfrit hated the Gods for branding him with his ugly flesh, and went to war with them readily. Ultima crafted him a set of armor inlaid with wards to protect him from the Gods, but in reality it hid his flesh from her eyes.

The sixth would come to be known as Adrammelech, the Worth. He was Emperor among the Scions of Darkness. His power was limitless, and he could reduce anything to dust with the blows of his fists. The Gods tasked him to quell the fiends and dark spirits of the Underworld. His power and fearsome visage, however, drew these fiends to him and bound them to his will. With his army of fiends, Adrammelech joined Ultima's revolution against the Gods.

The seventh would be called Cúchulainn, the Impure King. He was a Scion of Darkness created to rid both of the worlds of their impurities by swallowing them all himself. The Gods, however, vastly underestimated the impurities of Man. Cúchulainn would become corrupt and mad with their evil, and flocked to Ultima's side when she announced her rebellion.

The eighth would come to be known as Chaos, the Walker of the Wheel. He was made by the Gods to guard the sacred crystals from mortal hands. But the moment he entered the Upperworld and breathed deep the air of Man, the nameless god fell. In a single second he was stricken by madness and overwhelmed by the turmoil of life and death. He took the name Chaos and would live and die a hundred times by walking the wheel of Life. Angered that the Gods did not assist him, Chaos rebelled with Ultima.

The ninth would come to be known as Zalera, the Death Seraph. Zalera was created by the Gods to judge the souls of the dead. He, unlike the Gods, felt the full brunt of their forlorn cries and the curses of those who rail against the natural order. Their pain tainted the Death Seraph, and it took a mere whisper from Ultima to begin his revolution. The Scion reached into Heaven and stole a shamaness from her bed to do battle with his creators.

The tenth would come to be known as Zeromus, the Condemner. The Gods created Zeromus to be an infallible executer of criminals, and because of this he holds the law above all else. Over time, Zeromus came to enjoy condemning criminals to death rather than simply performing his job. Because of this, he was slowly corrupted by the cries of anguish from the innocents he condemned. When Ultima began her revolution, Zeromus felt it was time to condemn the very Gods themselves.

The final Scion to join Ultima was known as Exodus, the Judge-Sal. He was tasked by the Gods to judge all things, and have the final say in the operation of the Underworld. However, as the Gods before him, Exodus grew disillusioned with the world as it was. Withdrawn, unseen and uncaring, Exodus began to harbor a deep hatred for the world's continual annoyances and interference with his rest. And thus, when Ultima offered him rest, he offered her allegiance.

And thus, the eleven Scions of Darkness, led by the High Seraph, began their revolution against the Gods. The eleven remaining Scions, the Scions of Light, proved incapable of halting the advance of their Underworld brethren. Ultima ordered each and every Scion of Light to be slain, and his body brutalized so they could be presented as a warning to the Gods. And it was this act of unrestrained malice that forever corrupted Ultima. No longer was she the High Seraph. She had become the Bloody Seraph.

Angered and repulsed by this brutality, the Gods offered Ultima one chance to lay down her arms and surrender to the judgement of her creators. The Bloody Seraph responded with the dismembered and disfigured body of Emet-Selch, the Angel of Truth and a Scion of Light. The Gods, stricken by the ease of which Ultima murdered her brethren, withdrew to the great Citadel, Giruvegan, and the Tower of Babil that held up the Upperworld. Ultima and the army of fiends provided by Adrammelech marched upon the Tower with full intent of becoming new Gods.

Before her army could begin their attack, a brilliant flash of light illuminated the entire Underworld. In a single burst, the entire army of fiends vanished amid the light and became dust under it's brilliance. Adrammelech was the first to fall, broken by the loss of his worshipers and his loyal subjects. The light slowly died away, to reveal a snake-child in it's place.

Each of the fallen Scions battled this snake-child. At first, Famfrit and Cúchulainn attacked it alone. The Darkening Cloud fell quietly, his armor broken and his unsightly form exposed to the sky. The Impure King burned by the simple radiance of the snake-child, and fled to the Upperworld in stark fear. There would be no victory alone, and the Scions realized this. Thus did they attack together, in hopes of bringing down the snake-child as quickly as possible. Ultima, however, fled into the Tower of Babil in hopes of becoming a God before the snake-child caught her..

One by one, the Scions were broken. And the snake-child hunted down the few that fled. It found the Impure King hiding beneath the waste and garbage he absorbed into his flesh. It found the Whisperer hidden among the lies and deceit of mankind. And finally, it found the Corrupt hidden among the tainted waters and in the minds of mortals. There did it banish them, and contain the broken essence of all the Scions.

Ultima stood before the Seat of the Gods when the snake-child appeared before her. He whispered the quiet results of her companions, and presented her with twelve stones bearing the twelve marks of the Zodiac. Each of her companions were broken and captured, and the twelfth stone existed solely for her. Ultima railed against her condemnation, and demanded the creature's name. He was Zodiark, the Keeper of Precepts. The final judge in all things, in all worlds, in all life, and in all death. The true face of the Gods.

The Gods, however, learned from the Rebellion and the death of their Scions. They collapsed the great Tower of Babil while both Ultima and Zodiark were still inside. They turned the tower's stones to Crystal, and shaped it's center with the mark of the Thirteenth Zodiac. But not before extracting the other twelve stones. The Gods feared Zodiark's power, and they contained him within the Tower. This tower became Serpentarius, and the Twelve became the Zodiac Stones..

Zodiac Stone
You grasp a small, perfectly round crystal shaped like an orb. The orb is simple and completely flawless. Upon gazing into the stone, you can see a faint and familiar symbol resting in it's center..

Each Zodiac Stone appears to be a small, perfectly round crystal about the size of a human fist. There are thirteen Zodiac Stones in total, each of which can be used in conjuction with any other stone. Each stone is attuned to a single zodiac constellation and bears the symbol of it's constellation etched in it's center. A DC 15 Profession(Astrology) check is required to decipher the symbol for each stone. Once a Zodiac Stone enters the possession of an intelligent creature, the creature may make a Wisdom check(DC 30) to attune to the Stone. Any creature born under the same Zodiac sign as the Stone he attempts to attune to gains a +5 bonus on this check. (Leos gain a +5 bonus to attune to the Leo Zodiac Stone).

A possessor of a Zodiac Stone that she is not attuned to suffers no ill-effects. In a dire situation where the threat of death is prevelant, the possessor of a Zodiac Stone may, as a full-round action, hold the stone up high and call upon the spirit dwelling within it by it's personal truename. The user of this ability makes another Wisdom check(DC 20). Success means that the Stone reacts and the user may make a demand as if using the wish spell. Using the Stone in this manner will not create any items, magical or otherwise. Any other abilities of wish are duplicated as if the user had cast wish spell. Using this ability of the Stone carries a 50% chance of becoming attuned to the stone.

A possessor of a Zodiac Stone that she is attuned with constantly feels a powerful malice emanating from the Stone. Holding the Stone, be it with bare hands, gloves, tongs, or holding anything the Stone is stored in provokes a Will Save(DC 15) each round. Failure means the user is overwhelmed by the malicious aura and dazed for 1d4+1 rounds, during which she does not need to make subsequent saves. An attuned possessor may, as a standard action, grasp the Stone(forcing an afforementioned will save), and speak to the spirit within. The spirit will communicate with the possessor for as long as the possessor wishes, but will always attempt to draw him or her into using the Stone's power.

Any intelligent being within thirty feet of a Zodiac Stone is subtly manipulated by the Stone's malice. All such creatures must make a DC 15 Will Save once a day. Failure carries the same consequences as a failed Diplomacy check(moving all creatures one step closer to Hostile) as if everyone else within thirty feet of the stone had attempted one.

A Zodiac Stone is attuned to a being until that being's death. It cannot attune to another being unless it is currently not attuned to any living creature. Losing the Stone causes the attuned to lose the will to live and begin wasting away. Once an attuned being has lost her stone, she must make a DC 15 Fortitude Save every day with a cumulative +1 for every day she has spent without her stone. Failing the save causes the attuned to take 1d6 CON damage. If the attuned is immune to constitution damage, then she takes WIS damage. If the attuned is immune to ability damage, it becomes a cumulative penalty instead.

All of the Zodiac Stones bestow upon their possessor, attuned or not, the following bonuses and penalties:

25 temporary HP(renewed each round)
+4 Profane bonus to all saves
+6 Profane bonus to Constitution.

An attuned user gains the following in addition to the above bonuses:

+10 Profane bonus to damage from weapons or weapon-like spells.
Aura of Malice: As a free action, the possessor of a Zodiac Stone may exude an aura of malice out to fifteen feet. Any creature that isn't a Devil or Demon that enters the aura must make a DC 35 Will Save. Failure means the creature cannot attack the user. Failure by 10 or more means the creature is overwhelmed by sheer abject terror and is paralyzed for a number of rounds equal to the user's Charisma bonus.

Each Zodiac Stone has a particular spell that an attuned user may use as a Spell-Like Ability 3 times a day unless otherwise noted. The caster level for any caster level based effect is 20. Save DCs are equal to 10+1/2 HD of possessor+Cha.

Aries: Fire Storm(Fire is pure divine flame, and fire immunity/resistance does not apply.)
Pisces: Freezing Fog*
Capricorn: Chain Lightning
Gemini: Finger of Death
Sagittarius: Trap the Soul (1/day)
Scorpio: Ghoul Gauntlet*
Libra: Word of Balance
Leo: Dictum
Cancer: Reverse Gravity
Aquarius: Blood to Water* (Penalty instead of damage)
Taurus: Animal Shapes(Bison only)^
Virgo: Heal(If attuned is Good) or Harm(If attuned is Evil)
Serpentarius: Time Stop
*Spell Compendium
^Bison Form
Note: This is added onto the Caster. HP/Base Saves/BAB remain the same.

Size/Type: Colossal Animal
Hit Dice: Caster's HP
Initiative: +0
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: -8 Size, +4 Natural
Base Attack/Grapple: As Caster/+27
Attack: Gore (BAB+3) melee (4d6+)
Full Attack: Gore (BAB+3) melee (4d6+)
Space/Reach: 30 ft./30 ft.
Special Attacks: Powerful Charge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#powerfulCharge) +6d6
Special Qualities: Low-Light Vision, Scent.
Saves: +6/+0/As Caster.
Abilities: Str 32, Dex 10, Con 22

ZeroNumerous
2007-12-18, 06:43 AM
[Reserved for Lucavi]

Lucavi

Belias - Aries - Fire - Light Blue
Mateus - Pisces - Ice - Dark Blue
Adrammelech - Capricorn - Electricity - Green
Zalera - Gemini - Death - Purple
Shemhazai - Sagittarius - Soul - Dark Green
Cuchulainn - Scorpio - Poison - Red
Exodus - Libra - Balance - Orange
Hashmalim - Leo - Earth - Yellow
Zeromus - Cancer - Gravity - Pink
Famfrit - Aquarius - Water - Ocean Blue
Chaos - Taurus - Wind - Gold
Ultima - Virgo - Holy - Blue
Zodiark - Serpentarius - Dark - Light Green

Arakune
2007-12-18, 07:39 AM
Not all Zodiac stones are evil. Probably the stones simply augment that people evilness. Remember that some of the Zodiac Braves where dead from start.

ZeroNumerous
2007-12-18, 08:17 AM
Actually, yes, they are all evil. Atleast in the context of FFT. In the context of FF12, they're all Chaotic rebels(sans Zodiark, who is a baby).

Korias
2007-12-18, 09:07 AM
Erm... Not really. Infact, it could be said that the Zodiac Stones are more an amplifier. Mustadio held a stone, did he not? As did Ramza? Yet the party did not break from the aura of malice that occured. Infact, I remember you gathered a large amount of stones, and put them to good use- You powered Worker 8 with the Sagitarius one, correct?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't belive that its all as evil. Those that used them WERE evil, however. The Zodiac Braves, who originaly used the stones, never had a specified alignment. I belive that they were more of a "Neutral" force than anything else.

Mechanicaly, their solid. However... A will save to attune? That seems to strike me as odd.

ZeroNumerous
2007-12-18, 10:26 AM
Erm... Not really. Infact, it could be said that the Zodiac Stones are more an amplifier. Mustadio held a stone, did he not? As did Ramza? Yet the party did not break from the aura of malice that occured. Infact, I remember you gathered a large amount of stones, and put them to good use- You powered Worker 8 with the Sagittarius one, correct?

You powered an perpetually Innocent being with it. It was non-Intelligent, and thus immune to the stone's effect. The other characters are heroes, they saved every time. The stones are evil. The Lucavi is proof of that.


The Zodiac Braves, who originaly used the stones, never had a specified alignment. I belive that they were more of a "Neutral" force than anything else.

The ones who summoned Ultima? Buried an entire continent in order to pave the way for Galbados Church in order to establish the eventual resurrection of Ultima?


Mechanically, their solid. However... A will save to attune? That seems to strike me as odd.

Attuning is as much a bad thing as a good thing.

Fax Celestis
2007-12-18, 11:59 AM
Not how I would have done it at all, but still viable. I personally would have made attuning oneself to a zodiac stone similar to a Binder summoning a vestige.

Arakune
2007-12-18, 01:30 PM
And yet the stones were used to revive Malak. Even Ranza starts to wonder if the stones are really evil or that the user may corrupt the stones powers.

Edit: Some cases were the use of the Zodiac Stones weren't evil:

Activating Worker 8;
Bueolf (how you spell his name?) turning back his fiance from her draconic form;
Reviving Malak;
Using it to power up the time machine.

Each time the zodiac stone produced an 'evil' result, it was because the user was evil to start. You can argue that guy with the assassins could or not be evil since they used the stone to revive him on the brink of death (like Ranza brother).

Korias
2007-12-18, 01:50 PM
You powered an perpetually Innocent being with it. It was non-Intelligent, and thus immune to the stone's effect. The other characters are heroes, they saved every time. The stones are evil. The Lucavi is proof of that.



Ok, but perhaps the next step in that chain- the transformation of Reis?

And the Lucavi are based upon the fact that each used the stones for their own means. What if one was to use a stone for the purpose of good?




The ones who summoned Ultima? Buried an entire continent in order to pave the way for Galbados Church in order to establish the eventual resurrection of Ultima?

Wasn't that because they did so as they were persuaded to do so? If I remember correctly (Which I'm probably not), they were the ones who stopped That Saint (Began with an A... its the final boss right before Ultima. ) who tried to kill everybody.



Attuning is as much a bad thing as a good thing.


Maybe. But is it possible that one can drop the stone and pick it up again, to fail the will save and thereby not re-attuning?

ZeroNumerous
2007-12-18, 02:18 PM
Not how I would have done it at all, but still viable. I personally would have made attuning oneself to a zodiac stone similar to a Binder summoning a vestige.

Again, it's not an entirely good thing. If it was purely a benefit with little to no drawbacks, then yes, a Vestige-bind would have been more appropriate. Sometimes you don't want to attune to a Zodiac Stone. (Alma)


Activating Worker 8;
Beowulf turning back his fiance from her draconic form;
Reviving Malak;
Using it to power up the time machine.

1) A perpetually Innocent being is neither good nor evil. In D&D terms, it's INT -
2&3) This is why the wish replication is there.
3b) Who are we to say that it wasn't Rafa's anger at Malak's death(or at the "Weapon King") that called to the Stone? Who said this is an entirely benevolent act?
4) Again, a neutral act.

Shaky, at best, but ultimate irrelevant information. The Stones are evil, get over it. They become demons. Demons who try to conquer the world. Heck, a full 1/4th of the game is devoted to Vormav causing enough chaos and murder to summon their leader into Alma's body.


And the Lucavi are based upon the fact that each used the stones for their own means. What if one was to use a stone for the purpose of good?

Uh. No.

Each Stone becomes the demon. Remember, the Stones disappear to summon the Lucavi.


Wasn't that because they did so as they were persuaded to do so? If I remember correctly (Which I'm probably not), they were the ones who stopped That Saint (Began with an A... its the final boss right before Ultima. ) who tried to kill everybody.

Persuaded by who? Their leader Ultima(in the guise of the Saint you're talk about, by the way)?


Maybe. But is it possible that one can drop the stone and pick it up again, to fail the will save and thereby not re-attuning?

No, and lemme add something about that.

Arakune
2007-12-18, 02:29 PM
So in the end this is just your interpretations of the stones rather than the truth? That's fine by me :smallwink:

ZeroNumerous
2007-12-18, 06:52 PM
So in the end this is just your interpretations of the stones rather than the truth? That's fine by me :smallwink:

It is my artifact.

Ironic that you chose the word "truth". A driving point in FFT is that nothing is ever true. :smallbiggrin:

Arakune
2007-12-19, 06:07 AM
It is my artifact.

Ironic that you chose the word "truth". A driving point in FFT is that nothing is ever true. :smallbiggrin:

And the truth is that no one really knows the real powers of the stones, being either unspeakable Evil or just amplifier of the wielder true soul as stated by the game.

ZeroNumerous
2007-12-19, 08:10 PM
And the truth is that no one really knows the real powers of the stones, being either unspeakable Evil or just amplifier of the wielder true soul as stated by the game.

Then why doesn't Ramza ever use any of the Stones for a good purpose?

Cybren
2007-12-19, 10:38 PM
Speaking of them... that civilization used the stones for a lot of stuff. There were only twelve, however... so were there more stones than just those?

Ghal Marak
2007-12-19, 11:28 PM
Speaking of them... that civilization used the stones for a lot of stuff. There were only twelve, however... so were there more stones than just those?

That was my assumption. Like, a great many of them were used, but in Ramza's (at least, I think that's the correct name) time period they only knew of a few.

Fax Celestis
2007-12-19, 11:35 PM
That was my assumption. Like, a great many of them were used, but in Ramza's (at least, I think that's the correct name) time period they only knew of a few.

My assumption was that the Zodiac Brave's stones were more powerful than normal.

Cybren
2007-12-19, 11:43 PM
Anyway I think the Lucavi clearly is supposed to show that the stones are evil, because, for one they corrupt a likable character who by Final Fantasy standards was ready for redemption (followed in theory by joining your party with none of the moves he used against you). I think their resurrection of whatsherface-uselesscharacter was supposed to humanize the Lucavi, basically a red herring to make the player question their actions since up to "OMG DEMONS" the plot was swimming in a moral gray area. In addition, their use to power technology is supposed to show the hubris of the civilization that did so, now their functionality. Their destruction was predestined once they sought to control demons to run their plumbing.

ZeroNumerous
2007-12-20, 12:22 AM
Speaking of them... that civilization used the stones for a lot of stuff. There were only twelve, however... so were there more stones than just those?

13. Elidibs has the Serpentarius Stone.

I look at it this way: The 'stones' used during Saint Ajora's time were materia(which is backed up by the presence of materia as treasure), while the Zodiac Stones are magical stones in their own league.

Paragon Badger
2007-12-20, 08:22 PM
Then why doesn't Ramza ever use any of the Stones for a good purpose?

They did have the capability to bring someone back to life. Remember the damned battle of the roof of Riovanes?

I always felt that the stones themselves were not inherently evil, but one of their many capabilities was to serve as a prison of the Lucavi. If misused, these prisons could be broken and the demons emerge from within.

ZeroNumerous
2007-12-21, 01:20 AM
They did have the capability to bring someone back to life. Remember the damned battle of the roof of Riovanes?

They bring people back to life all the time. Marquis Elmdor, for example. Another example: Poor Zalbag.

Final nail in the coffin: That Weigraf bastard.

The Stones also have the ability to do absolutely nothing for someone who isn't attuned to one. For example, Meliadoul carries one around for her entire stint as a villain, yet she doesn't transform when beaten. Izlude carries one as well, but doesn't transform upon death.

ocato
2007-12-21, 02:00 AM
Saying they do evil things for evil people (Zalbag wasn't evil but Vormav was using the stone, Zalbag was just a victim of it) does not really close arguments against the idea that they do good for good and evil for evil.

I have to agree with the idea that they amplify the morality of their user. Wiegraf was filled with hate and self-pity and the stone reacted to that and made him into Velius (Belias). Izlude was not very evil, and didn't go all demonic like his father, Vormav. Meliadoul, Vormav's other child, also held a stone despite not being filled with its evil. It is quite arguable that Marquis Elmdor (The Silver Ogre) is a monster on the battlefield, and many atrocities are credited to him and his Masamune, aka evil. Heck, Orlandu had a stone, and he was the goodest of the good (and arguably due to his long-term exposure to the stone). The stone restored Reis, filled Worker 8 with life, saved and redeemed Malak (who, although confused, was good and proved this by giving his life to save his sister, Rafa), 'rescued' Cloud from the lifestream (the official explanation for Cloud's time in FFT as far as I know is that he was in it during his time in the lifestream, a plot point at the beginning of disk 3 I think in FF7), and of course the most obvious point:

Ramza held a lot of the stones, in fact close to all 13 of them, and he didn't so much as twinge evil.

ZeroNumerous
2007-12-21, 03:02 AM
Atrocities? Other than being a very good fighter, I've never noticed a single instance in the game were the Marquis performs an "atrocity".

Zalbag: He told Algus to kill Teta. Willingly. How is that not evil? He was going to murder his brother for poisoning their father.

Izlude: No, he didn't transform, that much is true. But that was more an argument against the idea of Good using the Stone for Good. If Izlude was as Good as he's shown to be(caring about Weigraf's safety. Caring about Alma's safety. Allowing Ramza to leave alive without fighting him.) then why would the Stone let him die?

Worker 8: This is irrelevant. It's neither Good nor Evil. Worker 8 has INT -. He's perpetually Innocent.

Malak: Redeem? Who said he was redeemed by the Stone? He was redeemed by the Weapon-King admitting to harming Rafa. Further, how can you say that Rafa's anger and grief at the death of Malak didn't call out to the Stone? We have no proof on the Good or Evil intentions of this action.

Cloud: It activated a machine. Again, neither Good nor Evil.

Ramza: He's the hero. He always makes his safe versus corruption.

Besides that, no one has addressed the underlying issue of the Stones literally becoming Lucavi.

EDIT: Oh, and I finished up the Creation Legend. I'll be stating out the Lucavi over the next few days.