By RAW....

[AmberVael]

... what are some extremely ridiculous things you can do or claim, by RAW?
I'm looking for things that are more "simple" and don't require a huge chain of events. I'm talking about things such as:

1) Being able to take full actions while dead, since death is never defined, and seemingly has no stated penalties.
2) Body slamming the ground with your eyes closed, which incurs a 50% penalty.
(So I suppose you levitate? Or shoot off into orbit, either one)
3) Drown someone to bring them back to 0 HP from the negatives.
4) Etc.

I do have an actual reason I'm asking for these, and no, it isn't me terrorizing some poor DM somewhere. You'll get to see it when I'm done. ^-^

[Mr. Friendly]

Cast spells while Wild Shaped as a Druid? :smalltongue:

Instantly transport items around the world thanks to the principles of the Commoner Rail Gun (an individual, readys to receive an item, handed to him by the peron on his left, then hand it to the person on his right; repeat an infinite number of times {Think 'Hands Across America Faerun'} )

[martyboy74]

However, the item in the railgun never goes faster than the speed that you could hand something off, and reaches it's destination nigh instentaneously.

Assuming that you have a high enough grapple modfier, you can be grappling ten different creatures at one, and still be fighting with a two-handed weapon.

[Nebo_]

The super speedy grapple ball. Everyone in the party joins in a grapple. One everyones turn, they make a grapple check to move half speed - everyone else chooses to fail their checks. When there are a heap of people all moving at half speed, you get some serious speed. Just imagine a ball of adventurers rolling across the country side.

[Corlis]

2) Body slamming the ground with your eyes closed, which incurs a 50% penalty.
(So I suppose you levitate? Or shoot off into orbit, either one)

"The secret to flying is to throw yourself at the ground, and miss"? :smallamused:

[Reinboom]

Train a house cat to kill a commoner.
:smallwink:

[Ryuuk]

"The secret to flying is to throw yourself at the ground, and miss"? :smallamused:

Off course, just ask Arthur Dent

[cupkeyk]

"The secret to flying is to throw yourself at the ground, and miss"? :smallamused:

If you miss the square of ground you were aiming at, you hit a random square adjacent to it. Same thing with the miss chance.

:p

[AlterForm]

If you miss the square of ground you were aiming at, you hit a random square adjacent to it. Same thing with the miss chance.

:p

Alright, but when you start dealing in 3 dimensions (as is required for aerial combat), you have 1 square you missed, 18 that would cause you to float, and bob, and bob, and float, and just 8 that would cause you to still hit the ground. :smallamused:

[cupkeyk]

Alright, but when you start dealing in 3 dimensions (as is required for aerial combat), you have 1 square you missed, 18 that would cause you to float, and bob, and bob, and float, and just 8 that would cause you to still hit the ground. :smallamused:

A an empty space is not a valid target unless you are groping for or attacking an invisible creature.

[AmberVael]

A an empty space is not a valid target unless you are groping for or attacking an invisible creature.

Ah, but everything is invisible to you, as you are blind. :smalltongue:
Also, you could negate this problem by saying you are attacking the entire earth in general.

[Jayabalard]

Alright, but when you start dealing in 3 dimensions (as is required for aerial combat), you have 1 square you missed, 18 that would cause you to float, and bob, and bob, and float, and just 8 that would cause you to still hit the ground. :smallamused:Your numbers don't make any sense. if you aim for a spot on the ground, then there are 9 squares above that (in the air) 8 that are on the same level as that (on the ground), and 9 that are below that (underground); so 9/26 you'll miss and still be in the air, but the other 17/26 you'll hit the ground.

[cupkeyk]

Your numbers don't make any sense. if you aim for a spot on the ground, then there are 9 squares above that (in the air) 8 that are on the same level as that (on the ground), and 9 that are below that (underground); so 9/26 you'll miss and still be in the air, but the other 17/26 you'll hit the ground.

And grant yourself a burrow speed.

[fendrin]

By RAW...

1) An object can fall an infinite distance instantaneously.

2) a character with sufficiently high jump check can kill themselves by jumping too high. (watch out for the jump spell)

3) an acupuncture session is deadly to lvl 1 wizards. (minimum 1 damage per needle)

[Mr. Moogle]

Im surprised that nobody's started talking about the infinite quarterstaffs instantaniously and all you need is one rank in Craft (quarterstaff) and Proffesion (wood merchant) :smalltongue:

[AmberVael]

3) an acupuncture session is deadly to lvl 1 wizards. (minimum 1 damage per needle)
Hmmm. You can improvise weapons at -4 penalty... and a successful attack does a minimum of one damage.
>>
<<
*throws air molecules*

[Sebastian]

To stay awake forever.

[SilverClawShift]

3) an acupuncture session is deadly to lvl 1 wizards. (minimum 1 damage per needle)

Where are the rules for acupuncture? Because I would call professional accupuncture non-lethal damage. This thread is about RAW, not houserules, but I've never seen actual rules for acupuncture anywhere.

[Fax Celestis]

1) Being able to take full actions while dead, since death is never defined, and seemingly has no stated penalties.

Incorrect. Death is indeed defined.


Dead
The character’s hit points are reduced to -10, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect. The character’s soul leaves his body. Dead characters cannot benefit from normal or magical healing, but they can be restored to life via magic. A dead body decays normally unless magically preserved, but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death (depending on the spell or device). Either way, resurrected characters need not worry about rigor mortis, decomposition, and other conditions that affect dead bodies.


1) An object can fall an infinite distance instantaneously.

Incorrect. Creatures and objects fall at 150' for the first round, 300' a round after that.


Minimum Forward Speed
If a flying creature fails to maintain its minimum forward speed, it must land at the end of its movement. If it is too high above the ground to land, it falls straight down, descending 150 feet in the first round of falling. If this distance brings it to the ground, it takes falling damage. If the fall doesn’t bring the creature to the ground, it must spend its next turn recovering from the stall. It must succeed on a DC 20 Reflex save to recover. Otherwise it falls another 300 feet. If it hits the ground, it takes falling damage. Otherwise, it has another chance to recover on its next turn.

[AmberVael]

Incorrect. Death is indeed defined.
Okay then, correction, it isn't defined in a way that prevents you from actually acting. :smalltongue:
See, normally you'd not be able to act because your ability score is 0, but it is Constitution, which only has the clause of "you're dead."
Dead is defined as being at -10 or less, and without a soul. Unlike the dying (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#dying) condition, you are not helpless or prevented from acting.

[Attilargh]

You need that one feat to act while dead, as your nonlethal damage exceeds your hit points and you're therefore unconscious.

[leperkhaun]

Okay then, correction, it isn't defined in a way that prevents you from actually acting. :smalltongue:
See, normally you'd not be able to act because your ability score is 0, but it is Constitution, which only has the clause of "you're dead."
Dead is defined as being at -10 or less, and without a soul. Unlike the dying (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#dying) condition, you are not helpless or prevented from acting.


if you need a rule that tells you that you cant do stuff while dead..... you need to be removed from the gene pool.

hmmm just read the post and notice it seems like im taking one out on you. Im not. Im just saying that something like death, there shouldnt be a rules for what you can and cannot do while dead. its common sense.

[AmberVael]

Hehehehe. I never claimed it to be something I'd actually use. It's theoretical.
Or rather, I do have a use for it, but it is a parody and humorous use. I don't mean any of this for serious application.

[Emperor Demonking]

Not true alot of the time what's in the dictionary and earth are different from D&D.

I mafde a thread about number two.

The mount and demount trick.

[Douglas]

The pony express: line up a bunch of horses, and get your ride bonus up to +19. Fast mount the first horse as a free action. You automatically succeed on the check. Fast dismount as a free action... on the other side of the horse. Fast mount the next horse in line, dismount on the other side, etc. In this way you can travel as far as you can line up a string of horses in one round - and still be able to full attack when you arrive at the other end.

[-Cor-]

The pony express: line up a bunch of horses, and get your ride bonus up to +19. Fast mount the first horse as a free action. You automatically succeed on the check. Fast dismount as a free action... on the other side of the horse. Fast mount the next horse in line, dismount on the other side, etc. In this way you can travel as far as you can line up a string of horses in one round - and still be able to full attack when you arrive at the other end.

In a related move, the two full attacks 20-ft. step. Not as mind-numbingly broken as the Horse-porter, but still...

And it's something most DMs will allow.

Anyway, it goes like this:

Mounted character's horse takes a full attack action on an opponent. (2 hooves? Bite? Can't remember.) The horse then takes a 5-ft diagonal step back and to the left. At this point it's the character's action, fast dismount as a free action. Fast Dismount says you dismount in any of your mount's squares. Pick the back left. Take a 5-ft. step diagonally back and to the left. Take a full attack action. You've just, in effect moved four diagonal squares and taken a full attack.

[Hario]

Making Millions of gold by buying ladders and selling rods.

Take Fighter Past Level 8 (no more real good feats).

Have Cleric's best buffs be ranged personal.

Be a Full Caster.

[Kompera]

if you need a rule that tells you that you cant do stuff while dead..... you need to be removed from the gene pool.

hmmm just read the post and notice it seems like im taking one out on you. Im not. Im just saying that something like death, there shouldnt be a rules for what you can and cannot do while dead. its common sense.The point is not that it is or is not not common sense, the point is that most games are rigorous enough about their definitions to state in an unequivocal fashion what the consequences of Bad Things(TM) (such as death) are. I'm unaware of any GM who allows dead characters to take actions. But by RAW, that's a house rule. And that's a ridiculous state of being.

[Attilargh]

And it's something most DMs will allow.
Do most DMs disregard the part where it says "If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack"?

[AmberVael]

Do most DMs disregard the part where it says "If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack"?

No, but the mount never moved more than 5ft. It moved exactly 5ft, and thus it works.

[zaei]

Lighter-than-air alchemical substances. Alchemists Fire/Acid weighs 1 pound in a flask, and an empty flask weighs 1.5 pounds. Throw enough alchemists fire or acid into a container, and you can FLY!

[kamikasei]

Lighter-than-air alchemical substances. Alchemists Fire/Acid weighs 1 pound in a flask, and an empty flask weighs 1.5 pounds. Throw enough alchemists fire or acid into a container, and you can FLY!

That's not lighter than air. That's much worse.

Lighter-than-air is when something is less dense than air. A hot-air balloon works because the lighter-than-air hot air + the weight of the balloon, over the volume of the inflated balloon, is less dense than air. The inflated balloon still weighs more than the deflated balloon.

What you've got there is a substance with negative mass. Either that or an extremely strange flask and an extremely thin alchemical substance that can actually achieve buoyancy and thus register as weighing less on a scales. And I'm not sure that even makes sense...

[Attilargh]

No, but the mount never moved more than 5ft. It moved exactly 5ft, and thus it works.
Reading comprehension, why have you forsaken me? :smallredface: No beef with it in that case.

[Fighteer]

That's not lighter than air. That's much worse.

Lighter-than-air is when something is less dense than air. A hot-air balloon works because the lighter-than-air hot air + the weight of the balloon, over the volume of the inflated balloon, is less dense than air. The inflated balloon still weighs more than the deflated balloon.

What you've got there is a substance with negative mass. Either that or an extremely strange flask and an extremely thin alchemical substance that can actually achieve buoyancy and thus register as weighing less on a scales. And I'm not sure that even makes sense...
Even better, by relativistic theory, objects only have negative mass when traveling faster than the speed of light. (Technically, their mass is undefined, but if you plug in velocity > c to the relativistic mass equation, you get a negative result.) So you don't just have alchemical substances with negative mass, they are actually moving at warp speed while still contained in a simple flask. It boggles the mind.

However, the effect of releasing these supra-relativistic substances from the flask is apparently that they start obeying normal physical laws again. So we also have a kind of quantum uncertainty effect from the combination of the substance and the flask that disappears when either is treated separately.

My personal favorite is the one where hiding behind a tower shield hides not only the character but also the shield itself. Heisenberg would love that one.

[fendrin]

Where are the rules for acupuncture? Because I would call professional accupuncture non-lethal damage. This thread is about RAW, not houserules, but I've never seen actual rules for acupuncture anywhere.

needle = improvised weapon. Minimum damage on an attack is 1. call it non-lethal if you want, but that is a houserule, not RAW.


Incorrect. Creatures and objects fall at 150' for the first round, 300' a round after that.

Minimum Forward Speed
If a flying creature fails to maintain its minimum forward speed, it must land at the end of its movement. If it is too high above the ground to land, it falls straight down, descending 150 feet in the first round of falling. If this distance brings it to the ground, it takes falling damage. If the fall doesn’t bring the creature to the ground, it must spend its next turn recovering from the stall. It must succeed on a DC 20 Reflex save to recover. Otherwise it falls another 300 feet. If it hits the ground, it takes falling damage. Otherwise, it has another chance to recover on its next turn.

Actually, that rule specifically states flying creatures. A flying creature is a creature with a fly speed. By RAW all other creatures and objects fall instantaneously, regardless of distance.

[Fighteer]

Actually, that rule specifically states flying creatures. A flying creature is a creature with a fly speed. By RAW all other creatures and objects fall instantaneously, regardless of distance.
The RAW do not appear to specify any particular time for falling, so I don't see how the above interpretation is any more valid than 150 feet the first round, 300 each additional.

[Theli]

needle = improvised weapon. Minimum damage on an attack is 1. call it non-lethal if you want, but that is a houserule, not RAW.

Not if the Acupuncturist takes a -4 penalty to make it non-lethal. :D

[NEO|Phyte]

needle = improvised weapon. Minimum damage on an attack is 1. call it non-lethal if you want, but that is a houserule, not RAW.

Improvised weapon, eh? Lets be generous and say that an average needle would be equivilant to a Fine-sized dagger.
Using this table (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#weaponSize), how much damage would it deal?

[AmberVael]

Not if the Acupuncturist takes a -4 penalty to make it non-lethal. :D

Oh, so you get knocked out by needles instead. How amusing. :smalltongue:

Neophyte- while the weapon itself might not deal damage, you could put your modifiers on it. The minimum damage you're dealing, no matter what the modifier is, is 1.

[NEO|Phyte]

Neophyte- while the weapon itself might not deal damage, you could put your modifiers on it. The minimum damage you're dealing, no matter what the modifier is, is 1.

That still leaves the fact that you'd have to be Tiny or smaller to be able to wield it as a weapon.
And either way, using acupuncture needles for acupuncture != improvised weapon, so the minimum damage rules does not apply.

[Reinboom]

Nonlethal damage brings up another.
How much can you take?
By starvation, you won't die. Just won't recover very quickly.
By choking on smoke (which kills more people than fire does - or is the most major contribution to their death, usually, in the real world) you can't die.
Now for all the weapons...

[AmberVael]

*sigh*
You'd think so Neo, but you're taking the chart in the wrong way.
The chart isn't about the size of the weapon, but the size of the creature carrying it. The chart says that a normal dagger, if created for a fine creature, could not be used by a medium creature.

It never says anything regarding the size of the actual weapon, only about the size of the creature it is made for. Thus, needles made to be held by medium creatures could be used as improvised weapons.

[NEO|Phyte]

It never says anything regarding the size of the actual weapon, only about the size of the creature it is made for. Thus, needles made to be held by medium creatures could be used as improvised weapons.
Really?

To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match.
Unless this needle is relatively the same size as a few inches of solid steel, I'm thinking no, by RAW.

[Fax Celestis]

Actually, that rule specifically states flying creatures. A flying creature is a creature with a fly speed. By RAW all other creatures and objects fall instantaneously, regardless of distance.

No, not really. This is under the "minimum forward speed" header, mind you, and nonflying characters do not have a fly speed and therefore never meet "minimum forward speed".

[13_CBS]

Wasn't there this one thing by RAW where, if someone charges, and the target readies an action to step aside after that person charges, the universe implodes?

Well, not quite implode, but still...

[tyckspoon]

Wasn't there this one thing by RAW where, if someone charges, and the target readies an action to step aside after that person charges, the universe implodes?

Well, not quite implode, but still...

The RAW says readied actions happen before the actions that trigger them. Therefore, in order to respond to something with a key phrase like 'if he starts (insert an action here)', you have to react to it before anything is done at all; otherwise your action happens *while* the trigger action is going on, not before it. That has a lot of weird effects, one of which is requiring everybody to be a little bit precognitive if you use that kind of trigger action. It's fairly easy to avoid by just going with the intent of readied actions instead (interruption, not prediction), but if you want to go strict RAW you need to change the trigger phrasing to something like 'while he is casting a spell' or 'when a creature is charging at me.'

[Issabella]

"if" your GM has no understanding of economics.

Infinite money. Buy a 10ft ladder, break apart into two 10ft staves, sell the stave's for more then the ladder according to the book.

[Ceaon]

Take this example.
Two commoners have a beef.
Commoner 1 sneaks up on Commoner 2.
Since they're commoners, they both have a +0 attack bonus and 10 AC (total, touch and flatfooted).
Commoner 1 hits the flatfooted Commoner 2.
He has a +0 attack bonus and thus...
has a chance of 50% to hit air. Commoner 1 has all the time of the world and may just as well miss his target completely.

What a buffoon, you'd say.

It gets worse.

Commoner 2 is mad Commoner 1 hit him and decides to strike back by sneaking up on Commoner 1's wife, Commoner 3.
As his proficient simple weapon, he chose the club, but since he doesn't want everyone to know he's going to him somebody, he's left it at home.
He sneaks up on NPC 3 - BUT, he is not proficient with the "unarmed strike" simple weapon.
He has a -4 attack bonus, and thus only a 30% hit chance.

Yikes.

[Epic_Wizard]

The pony express: line up a bunch of horses, and get your ride bonus up to +19. Fast mount the first horse as a free action. You automatically succeed on the check. Fast dismount as a free action... on the other side of the horse. Fast mount the next horse in line, dismount on the other side, etc. In this way you can travel as far as you can line up a string of horses in one round - and still be able to full attack when you arrive at the other end.

Actually there is a suggested limit of around 2 free actions allowed per person per round at the DM's discretion. While there is no concrete rule about the number of Free actions you can take it does say basically 'DM's you should be regulating this' which invalidates this along with a large number of these "infinite free actions" loopholes.

Also as for Dying vs Dead and actions it says that your soul leaves your body so while you can take actions they don't use your body. I would guess that this has to do with having people rise as ghosts and then being able to take actions then.

[fendrin]

Ok, so I typed this up once already then lost it :smallmad:

So here it is again, but without nice quoting.

Falling
Fax, the title of the rule does not matter. The rule as written states "If a flying creature fails to maintain its minimum forward speed...". Not "an airborne creature", not "any object". RAI you are right, but we are talking about RAW.

Fighteer has a valid point. There seem to be only a few situations in which RAW states you fall. Falling while climbing, jumping down, falling off a mount, being dropped by a flying creature using a snatch attack, and pit traps. There may be others. However, nowhere in the RAW does it state that you fall if you simply step off a cliff or building (though chasms are defined as a type of it trap).

If a non-flying creature or object does fall, it falls instantaneously. a flying creature falls slower, as defined under 'minimum forward speed'.

Needles
Neo, a human is not using a needle as a tiny (or whatever size you want to call it) dagger, they are improvising it as a weapon in it's own right. Regardless of the weapon, a successful attack deals a minimum of 1 point of damage.

[Theli]

Needles
Neo, a human is not using a needle as a tiny (or whatever size you want to call it) dagger, they are improvising it as a weapon in it's own right. Regardless of the weapon, a successful attack deals a minimum of 1 point of damage.

Meh, total text from the SRD:


Improvised Weapons

Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses one in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a -4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object. To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match. An improvised weapon scores a threat on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.

Looks he has a point. A needle could reasonably be compared to a dagger. (Such as a bolt could be considered an improvised dagger of its size.) And due to its small size, it might just do - damage, as listed on the relevant table. It's debatable.

[NEO|Phyte]

Needles
Neo, a human is not using a needle as a tiny (or whatever size you want to call it) dagger, they are improvising it as a weapon in it's own right. Regardless of the weapon, a successful attack deals a minimum of 1 point of damage.
The rules don't care if you're pretending its a dagger or just trying to stab someone with it. You need to compare its size and general unpleasantness to other weapons to determine 1) what size you need to be to wield it, and 2) what damage it deals.
Now, sure, we can hold needles easily enough between our fingers, but how the hell are you going to stab someone with it in a way that will actually be effective in a combat situation? Unless your needle is a lot bigger than the ones I'm picturing in my head, by the RAW for determining improvised weapons (as posted by Theli above me), your acupuncturist is going to have a be a few size categories smaller than Medium to be a threat to the poor wizards, and then he'd STILL have to WANT and TRY to kill a paying customer to do so with his needles.

[Emperor Demonking]

If you use a needle as a weapon it might do damage, but you have to use it as a weapon.

[fendrin]

OK, I would posit that a "standard needle" is roughly equivalent to a blowgun dart (in Complete Warrior). That would be a damage rating of '1'.

If you want to stay core only I would call it equivalent to a rat's dagger, a rat is tiny, a tiny dagger does 1 point of damage.

And sticking a piece of pointy metal into another person sounds like an attack to me. It's just a very small attack.

The acupuncturist would be taking -4 for an improvised weapon, another -4 to do non-lethal damage, for a net of -8, but the target is typically prone, and not resisting, essentially 'voluntarily helpless', which gives a dex of 0 (-5 mod), and the acupuncturist gets a +4 to hit. That gives a lvl 1 expert with 0 str a net -4 to hit against an AC of 5, requiring a 9+ to succeed.

Of course, a skilled acupuncturists would be above lvl 1, and thus have a higher BAB, and I'm guessing would be using weapon finesse (to minimize damage from str, a low str is optimal, but accuracy is very important too).

[NEO|Phyte]

The acupuncturist would be taking -4 for an improvised weapon, another -4 to do non-lethal damage, for a net of -8, but the target is typically prone, and not resisting, essentially 'voluntarily helpless', which gives a dex of 0 (-5 mod), and the acupuncturist gets a +4 to hit. That gives a lvl 1 expert with 0 str a net -4 to hit against an AC of 5, requiring a 9+ to succeed.

. . .

Why are you treating a decidedly non-combat situation like a fight with a balor? He doesn't need to roll anything (aside from maybe Profession (acupuncturist)), he just sticks the needles where they need to go to do their mojo, the target (hopefully) starts feeling better, end of story.

I'd hate to try to get a tattoo in a game run by you.

[fendrin]

. . .

Why are you treating a decidedly non-combat situation like a fight with a balor? He doesn't need to roll anything (aside from maybe Profession (acupuncturist)), he just sticks the needles where they need to go to do their mojo, the target (hopefully) starts feeling better, end of story.

I'd hate to try to get a tattoo in a game run by you.

I wouldn't actually run it that way! Remember, we are talking about RAW here, not 'reasonable DM interpretation', 'common sense', or even RAI.

Vael, I hope you are making a comic of these, or something like that. I would love to see the end result.

[Theli]

Heh, except that the RAW DEMANDS DM interpretation:


To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match.

The keyword being "reasonable".

Well, technically all RAW includes Rule Zero. But that tends to be omitted for argument's sake.

[deadseashoals]

1) Buy a ten-foot ladder.
2) Chop it in half and slice off the rungs, creating two ten-foot poles.
3) Sell the two ten-foot poles for more than you bought the ladder for.
4) Profit.

[Mr. Friendly]

Heh, except that the RAW DEMANDS DM interpretation:



The keyword being "reasonable".

Well, technically all RAW includes Rule Zero. But that tends to be omitted for argument's sake.

Um, no. RAW doesn't include Rule 0, that's the point of RAW. That's why RAW discussions are generally considered thought experiments. In most cases no sane DM would ever allow them.

[Roderick_BR]

Fighteer has a valid point. There seem to be only a few situations in which RAW states you fall. Falling while climbing, jumping down, falling off a mount, being dropped by a flying creature using a snatch attack, and pit traps. There may be others. However, nowhere in the RAW does it state that you fall if you simply step off a cliff or building (though chasms are defined as a type of it trap).
It means you can just walk off the top of a building, and keep moving on the air? Nowhere on RAW says that you fall if there's no ground under you :p
However, walking off a cliff would count as jumping down, I guess.

On the bodyslam thing, people is right on the miss chance: You just land on a different square than you intended. Is actually pretty correct. You close you eyes, jumps down, and misses the place you wanted, falling more to the side. The text from Fling Ally (Races of Stone) it suggests to use the same rules for throwing itens, when you are throwing someone. The same would apply to "throwing yourself"

And for the needle: don't you start taking lethal damage when your non-lethal damage exceeds your HP?
But I'd say that acupuncture needles used correctly doesn't deal damage at all (or so specialists claims), unless it's actually used as a weapon.

For dead-man-walking: I can argue that "dead" doesn't need to say you can't act. At worse, the "dying" condition says that at -10, "she is dead." That, alone is the definition of death, as in, "dead" has no definition because it IS the definition.

For the peasant vs peasant: the 50% miss chance is the chance that one peasant can actually avoid being hit. In that slightly split second, he noticed some commotion behind him, and tried to move. If he were immobile, he would take a -5 for an effective Dexterity 0, with only 25% chance of missing it, though... :smallamused:
And it was already said: Creatures are proficients with their natural attacks, and unarmed strikes are natural attacks. There is no such thing as "weapon proficiency: unarmed strike". The Improved Unarmed Strike feat has an entirely different use.

My favorite RAW rule is that once you get past a certain amount of Hit Points, you can survive a fall from ANY height. Falling up to 200 ft deals you 20d6 points of damage, with a maximum of 120 points of damage. If you have exactly 120 points of damage, you are merely disabled, and can even walk, albeit slowly. If you have 121, you can fall from stratosphere, open up a crater on the ground, stand up, and walk away.
Likewise, a wizard flying up to 270 ft can drop a mug that'll deal 20d6 points of damage when it lands. Just have him carry a box of rocks (min. 1lb each), and turn it upside down. Aerial strike.

Edit: I was forgetting: Massive damage. But once your Fort save is high enough, you can ignore that too.

[fendrin]

1) Buy a ten-foot ladder.
2) Chop it in half and slice off the rungs, creating two ten-foot poles.
3) Sell the two ten-foot poles for more than you bought the ladder for.
4) Profit.

Hey Vael, maybe you aught to start a compiled list in the first post. That way people who think their being helpful without reading the entire thread might have some chance of not posting the same idea over and over again... :smallannoyed:

[Theli]

Read as Written.

The whole point of worrying about RAW is that it's written in the books that govern how the game is run.

Well, those very same books have Written within them rule zero.

I understand that discussions of RAW don't include that. I'm not saying that they do, or even should. As arguments that end in "It's DM fiat" just don't go anywhere.

All I'm saying is that in ANY discussion of RAW it should be implied, and understood by all participants in RAW-based debates, that ultimately it IS up to DM fiat, even if DM fiat may not be worth talking about.

And further, there are many rules by RAW that are so intertwined with rule zero, that it makes talking about them difficult. The improvised weapons rules are one such example.

At the point where you recognize that you can't make reasonable assumptions about how the RAW SHOULD be because of this, then the subjects worth as a RAW topic is almost nothing.

That's not to say that you can't talk about improvised weapons with regards to RAW. You just can't make any statement which would suggest assumptions of things that really are DM fiat, such as if a needle is a fine-sized improvised dagger, or a diminutive-sized one. You will simply be limited to only talking about the X-sized improvised dagger itself, and not be able to apply any further fluff labels within the framework of a RAW debate.

So you lose the joke of how an acupuncturists kills their clients... oh, well. Since when did RAW become all about making jokes anyway?

[fendrin]

Since when did RAW become all about making jokes anyway?Since that is the point of the thread...

I agree with you about the limitations of RAW (because D&D requires a DM to arbitrate such things).

How about this: a housecat can knock out an average commoner in 6 seconds.

[Riffington]

Well, those very same books have Written within them rule zero.


This is why RAW is a houserule. It is a houserule that rule zero and the Golden Rule do not apply.

[Theli]

Since that is the point of the thread...


To that I can only nitpick that just because something is ridiculous, that doesn't make it funny. :p

ANYWAY, the title could've been a little bit clearer... So, meh...

Ridiculous...huh... Well if the OP didn't read through all of the current Simple Q&A thread...

Apparently, if you're in a square 5 feet away from a door, you can only move up to the door and open it during a single turn. You can not go past that door even a single square. (Assuming that you only have the typical movement and standard actions during a turn.)

However, if you are in a square immediately adjacent, you can open it and use your full move to go beyond it.

Yes, there is such an extreme difference between being 5' away from a door and a fraction of a inch less than 5' away.

RIDICULOUS.

[Falrin]

you can put infinite Commoners in a 5x5 Ft Box by having thme grapple eachother.

[Fighteer]

Falling
Fax, the title of the rule does not matter. The rule as written states "If a flying creature fails to maintain its minimum forward speed...". Not "an airborne creature", not "any object". RAI you are right, but we are talking about RAW.

Fighteer has a valid point. There seem to be only a few situations in which RAW states you fall. Falling while climbing, jumping down, falling off a mount, being dropped by a flying creature using a snatch attack, and pit traps. There may be others. However, nowhere in the RAW does it state that you fall if you simply step off a cliff or building (though chasms are defined as a type of it trap).

If a non-flying creature or object does fall, it falls instantaneously. a flying creature falls slower, as defined under 'minimum forward speed'.
My point was that the RAW do not specify any particular speed for a falling object, except for the case of a flying creature failing to maintain sufficient forward velocity. You can't claim that the rules say that falling happens instantaneously, because they don't. The rules don't even say how and when creatures fall in a general sense, but there has to be some limits to how ridiculously literal we can be.


Needles
Neo, a human is not using a needle as a tiny (or whatever size you want to call it) dagger, they are improvising it as a weapon in it's own right. Regardless of the weapon, a successful attack deals a minimum of 1 point of damage.
A person deliberately using a needle as a weapon would indeed inflict a minimum of 1 point of damage with it. The nonproficiency and inappropriate size penalties reflect the difficulty of actually striking a target in a sufficiently vulnerable spot (such as the eyes, throat, groin, or other place where you could, in theory, generate severe pain or bleeding).

An acupuncturist is not using his needles as weapons and therefore does not inflict damage with them. If you want to be particularly cruel, you could have him make some kind of skill check and inflict a point of damage with a sufficiently bad failure, but that's not RAW.

Back to the commoners fighting each other: (a) All creatures (except for certain herbivorous animals) are proficient with their own natural weapons, so the second commoner does not take a nonproficiency penalty. (b) As anyone who's ever gotten into a fistfight can attest, there's a distinct difference between swinging your fists around wildly and delivering a solid blow that actually stands a chance to hurt or incapacitate your opponent. Remember that, by RAW, "missing" an attack roll doesn't mean you hit nothing but air; it can mean that you struck a glancing blow, got parried or blocked, or any result other than landing a solid hit. The fluff is up to the DM, but it's misleading to say that every failed attack roll represents a total miss.

[fendrin]

My point was that the RAW do not specify any particular speed for a falling object, except for the case of a flying creature failing to maintain sufficient forward velocity. You can't claim that the rules say that falling happens instantaneously, because they don't. The rules don't even say how and when creatures fall in a general sense, but there has to be some limits to how ridiculously literal we can be.
There are certain circumstances that cause a creature to fall. We know from the falling damage rules that creatures that fall hit the ground and take damage. Falling is not an action, and by RAW takes no time. It just happens. The process of falling is undefined. But we know that to get from one end to the other takes no time. It is not an action, and by RAW happens immediately. In other words, a character who uses their standard action to do something that makes them fall would fall an unlimited amount of distance, take falling damage as appropriate, then be able to take their move action (presuming they are not incapacitated by the falling damage).


A person deliberately using a needle as a weapon would indeed inflict a minimum of 1 point of damage with it. The nonproficiency and inappropriate size penalties reflect the difficulty of actually striking a target in a sufficiently vulnerable spot (such as the eyes, throat, groin, or other place where you could, in theory, generate severe pain or bleeding). No, hitting one of those areas would be a critical hit. Any stab with a needle causes damage.

Also the penalties you asses are not appropriate. To attack with a needle would only incur the -4 for an improvised weapon. It is a medium sized needle, not a tiny (or whatever) sized dagger. There is a -4 penalty for improvised weaponry, and presumably an acupuncturist would be taking the -4 penalty to do non-lethal, so the penalties work out the same, but for instance, you cannot take a feat to become proficient with a needle the way you could to become proficient with a spiked chain. By RAW, anyway.


An acupuncturist is not using his needles as weapons and therefore does not inflict damage with them. If you want to be particularly cruel, you could have him make some kind of skill check and inflict a point of damage with a sufficiently bad failure, but that's not RAW.

If you insert a sharpened object into a body, it is an attack. Whether it is a spear or a needle, the only thing that is different is the scale.

[Theli]

Fendrin, the rules explicitly say that you compare the improvised weapon to actual weapons of whatever size to determine damage and its size category.


To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match.

So I really don't understand why you keep making that distinction. Its weird.

*shrugs* But whatever, I guess its really not that important to me to keep arguing over.

[Fighteer]

There are certain circumstances that cause a creature to fall. We know from the falling damage rules that creatures that fall hit the ground and take damage. Falling is not an action, and by RAW takes no time. It just happens. The process of falling is undefined. But we know that to get from one end to the other takes no time. It is not an action, and by RAW happens immediately. In other words, a character who uses their standard action to do something that makes them fall would fall an unlimited amount of distance, take falling damage as appropriate, then be able to take their move action (presuming they are not incapacitated by the falling damage).
I still don't see where it explicitly states that falling occurs instantaneously. You're interpreting the rules to mean that, which is beyond the official scope of this thread. The proper terminology is "undefined", meaning the DM must make a judgement call.


No, hitting one of those areas would be a critical hit. Any stab with a needle causes damage.

Also the penalties you asses are not appropriate. To attack with a needle would only incur the -4 for an improvised weapon. It is a medium sized needle, not a tiny (or whatever) sized dagger. There is a -4 penalty for improvised weaponry, and presumably an acupuncturist would be taking the -4 penalty to do non-lethal, so the penalties work out the same, but for instance, you cannot take a feat to become proficient with a needle the way you could to become proficient with a spiked chain. By RAW, anyway.
No, not by RAW. Because RAW does not define stats for a needle. Therefore, any introduction of needles as weapons is a house rule by definition. It could be a Tiny (or Diminutive) dagger or a Medium improvised weapon with a base damage of 1. But it is not RAW.

However, what is explicitly stated in the rules is an explanation of the concept of the attack roll in combat. A failed attack roll does not always mean that you missed your target; it means that you failed to hit it in a way that inflicted damage. This covers blocks, parries, glancing blows, attacks that did not penetrate armor, etc., as well as complete misses. For that needle to inflict a point of damage, you must make a successful attack roll, which means by definition that you hit the target in such a way as to inflict meaningful injury. Anything after that is fluff.


If you insert a sharpened object into a body, it is an attack. Whether it is a spear or a needle, the only thing that is different is the scale.
So a healer stitching up a wound using needle and thread from a healing kit is actually damaging his subject (or would that be victim)? You seem to be moving from rules interpretation to outright ridiculousness. Needles, knives, and other sharp objects used as part of a profession or skill do not inflict injury unless explicitly stated by the rules of that profession or skill. I challenge you to find where "acupuncture" is listed as a profession in the rules.

What is explicit is that you have to make an attack to inflict weapon damage. If the person wielding the needle is not attempting to injure his target with it, the "minimum 1 damage" rule doesn't apply, because no actual attack happened.

[fendrin]

Ok, I'm giving up on the acupuncture thing.


Apparently if I hit someone with a crowbar but don't intend to hurt them it's not an attack and does no damage. That's a worthy of notice on this thread, I suppose.


I will admit to being wrong about the size category and non-proficiency penalties, though.

[Theli]

Why would you hit somebody with a crowbar if you didn't intend to hurt them? Heh.

Besides that, RAW stipulates EXACTLY what a crowbar is as an improvised weapon and how it can be used. But you probably already know that. :p So nevermind.

[Kurald Galain]

Here's an interesting one...

Both in third and first edition, a high-level monk takes no damage from a fall if landing within a few feet of a wall. It does not matter what height he fell from; I know a piece of fanfic in which a monk falls from orbit (literally) and takes zero damage.

Which means that we finally found a viable party role for monks, assuming the party consists of astronauts :smallbiggrin:

[Fighteer]

Apparently if I hit someone with a crowbar but don't intend to hurt them it's not an attack and does no damage. That's a worthy of notice on this thread, I suppose.

"Hitting someone with a crowbar" implies an attack roll; therefore you are, by definition, attempting to inflict damage. You may wish to "pull your punch" and inflict nonlethal damage instead (for an additional -4 penalty in addition to the nonproficiency penalty), but it's still an attack and does at least 1 point of damage if you succeed.

"I bonk him on the head with a crowbar to tell him he's being a fool" is not exactly the same thing, but generally one uses an object for that purpose that's not as likely to accidentally injure someone. The DM would be perfectly justified in making you roll to avoid causing damage in such a situation, but that's not RAW so it doesn't apply here.

And yes, I do realize you were being sarcastic.