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View Full Version : Point Buy vs. Rolling Redux: The Final Battle (yeah right)



Mr. Friendly
2007-12-18, 09:32 AM
Point Buy and Rolling, the two most common methods of attribute generation. Personally I sit on the fence between the two. On the one hand I like the safe predictability of point buy from both a player and DM perspective. On the other hand there is a bit of gambler's thrill in rolling for the character.

Most people I game with prefer rolling, but it always degenerates into the same predictable scenario:

Player: "I rolled crap, I want to roll over."
DM: "Your stats aren't crap."
Player: "But everyone else rolled at least 1 18!"
DM: "Tough luck. Deal with it."

At this point Player either whines and cries until DM gives in or, as is more common....

Player: "Ok, Ted the Crappy Fighter charges the (monster)." or "I open the door, before the Rogue checks it."

In short the "character" has a suicidal death wish until he dies and the player rolls a new character, disrupting the game.

By contrast, point buy is kind of bland, though more stable.

So, from my perspective, it looks like this:

{table]Rolling|Point Buy
Varied PC stats|Balanced PC stats
Fickle Finger of Fate|Fickle Finger of Math
Random|Stable
Exciting|Bland
Variable power impact on the game|Known power impact on the game
Possible to roll a 3|Impossible to have all 18s (by default)[/table]

Anything I am missing?

So, how about it d6 lovers, tell everyone why point buy sucks.

Point buy lovers, tell everyone why random stats suck.

Round 1: FIGHT!

Prophaniti
2007-12-18, 09:40 AM
I don't mind point-buy so much, but I prefer to play with a slightly larger stat pool. Standard point-buy you can never play any class that requires multiple high stats to be effective. The party is supposed to be HEROES! In a typical game at least, they're supposed to be extraordinary individuals. That's why we usually play with 4d6 drop lowest, sometimes I even allow a re-roll if they roll multiple 1s. Practically all the D&D pc games used point-buy and it always felt restricting, like I was going into the game with my legs tied together or chopping off my hand just to make it interesting.

Kurald Galain
2007-12-18, 09:44 AM
I fail to see what is so "exciting" about rolling 4d6 six times.

Also, I fail to see how math can in any way be considered "fickle". Indeed, the whole point of mathematics is that it isn't fickle.

Nebo_
2007-12-18, 09:46 AM
I don't like these threads usually, but it's a fresh one so I'll say my piece before it gets too bogged down with people trying to ram opinions down each other's throats.

I like rolling because it's fun. My group is sensible enough to allow rerolls when bad stats come up, so we don't get crippled characters. Point buy just doesn't have the excitement of rolling, so we don't use it.

Matthew
2007-12-18, 09:56 AM
Point Buy is predictable, rolling is unpredictable. It's all preferential. Personally, I like a bit of randomness in character generation and I despise the most common result of point buy, which is the temptation (or pressure) to simply give your character an 18 in his prime Attribute and stay away from MAD builds.

Telonius
2007-12-18, 10:00 AM
Most people I game with prefer rolling, but it always degenerates into the same predictable scenario:

Player: "I rolled crap, I want to roll over."
DM: "Your stats aren't crap."
Player: "But everyone else rolled at least 1 18!"
DM: "Tough luck. Deal with it."

At this point Player either whines and cries until DM gives in or, as is more common....

Player: "Ok, Ted the Crappy Fighter charges the (monster)." or "I open the door, before the Rogue checks it."

In short the "character" has a suicidal death wish until he dies and the player rolls a new character, disrupting the game.



One method I've seen to avoid that situation is to give every player one free 18, then roll for the rest.

Duke of URL
2007-12-18, 10:08 AM
I prefer rolling. Point-buy feels too "sterile".

The whole idea of point-buy was to eliminate the "unfairness" of random rolls. For computer games, this makes a lot of sense -- everyone starts on relatively even footing, and people don't just hit "re-roll" or start over until they have god-like stats.

For rolling, I personally like the idea of setting a minimum and maximum net modifier. If you roll badly, i.e., below the minimum modifier, you get to re-roll. If you roll "too well", you still have to re-roll. Maybe it sucks to be the guy who just "wasted" an 18, 18, 18, 17, 16, 11 set, but it's good for the guy who rolled 11, 7, 6, 6, 4, 3. This imposes a level of fairness, but still keeps the randomness that comes with rolling.

ALOR
2007-12-18, 10:15 AM
I much prefer rolling to point buy. Point buy just feels dull compared to rolling the dice and letting fate decide. I do recognise the usefullness of point buy (especially in a game like living greyhawk) but it's just not my cup of tea.

Mr. Friendly
2007-12-18, 10:20 AM
I fail to see what is so "exciting" about rolling 4d6 six times.

Also, I fail to see how math can in any way be considered "fickle". Indeed, the whole point of mathematics is that it isn't fickle.

The first part was directed at my alluded to notion of the gambler's thrill.

The second part was a kind of a joke. :smallwink: There is a certain truth to it though, more than a few players I have gamed with have severe difficulties with numbers exceeding the number of digits they possess. :smallbiggrin:

Sleet
2007-12-18, 10:30 AM
I strongly prefer point-buy to rolling for D&D. I do not like that so much of the character's destiny rests on six rolls at the start of the campaign. I prefer more control over the character I'm going to play for a long-term campaign.

Tormsskull
2007-12-18, 10:35 AM
In a game where you live or die by the dice, where most everything is determined by the dice, it only makes sense that a character's attributes are also determined in that way.

Dice are the ultimate deciders in the game, they are impartial, and regardless of your personal view on luck or fate, they really don't favor anyone. On any given day, one person can roll well, and another can roll poor.

I view a player that rolls really well as having "earned" the right to play that character, because they rolled it. Simply saying "I'll take 18 this, 16 that, 8 where it isn't going to hurt me" etc, almost seems like cheating to me.

But I will defintely agree that for heavy combat/hack n slashers/balance fanatics, point-buy is better because it starts each character off at an equal level and is much better for optimiziers to be able to craft the mechanics they'd like.

SilverClawShift
2007-12-18, 11:23 AM
In short the "character" has a suicidal death wish until he dies and the player rolls a new character, disrupting the game.

If a player at one of our games did that, I would politely ask them to GTFO. A little maturity at the table goes a long way. Remember, the game's a group activity. :smallsmile:


Standard point-buy you can never play any class that requires multiple high stats to be effective. The party is supposed to be HEROES!

(Let me pre-face this by saying that I'm not trying to be rude or snarky, and no offense is meant. Everyone has their own playstyles, and that is perfectly okay, I just wanted to express my view about stats and stat generation counter to this quoted point).

Personally, after playing with my group for so long, stuff like this kind of surprises me. I think it's a reflection of two factors.
1: I think people have let their idea of what the stats represent slowly creep skywards.

10 is your average human being. That's not weak, that's average. Re-arranging the furniture in your living room, helping to push a car out of the snow, carrying in 6 bags of groceries at a time. Those are 10-STR tasks.

12 is Significantly Better. The big guy you know who you call up when you need help moving, cause you know he'll be able to put the fridge on a handtruck and wheel it without losing control. He's got 12 STR. Maybe he's got 13 or 14 STR if you know one of the bigger big guys. He's stronger than you, and it shows.

18 is the REALISTIC HUMAN MAXIMUM. Olympic powerlifters have 18 STR. Olympic Gymnasts have 18 Dex. That guy who walked for 4 days through the woods on a broken leg after he survived a plane crash, he's got 18 CON. GHANDI had 18 Wis. ALBERT EINSTEIN had 18 Int.

That's why the stat generation system caps at 18. Your first level character is not beginning the game inherently stronger than everyone else in the world. At best, he's in the top ranks of the strongest. If he has racial adjustments, then those might put him over the top (the toughest living dwarf is tuogher than the toughest living human, the strongest living half-orc...ect), but then you're exceptional at something beause you're NOT human, that's the point.

Which brings me on to the second skewing factor.
2: Because 18 is the maximum for regular stat generation, and because D&D is a game in the end, it becomes extremly easy to view 18 as your 'goal'. Once you've established that you are "supposed" to have 18 in your key stat, it establishes itself as a fact in your mind.
Now, fighters need to start with 18 STR in your mind. Wizards need to start with 18 INT. Rogues need 18 DEX.

Now you're left looking at your other stats.

25 point buy is enough to give you an 18 in one stat, with 9 points left over. 9 points is enough to raise every stat to the human average, except for one. So now, you are slightly less intellligent (or charismatic, or nimble, or perceptive) as a human, in exchange for being ONE OF THE STRONGEST HUMAN BEINGS TO HAVE EVER GRACED THE FACE OF THE PLANET, with a few epic exceptions.
That's not your ending title, that's the START of your career. As you level up, you will get a +1 increase to a stat every 4 levels, and can find magical items to temporarily (or even permanently) increase that stat. By the time you are level 8, you have enough raw strength to wake up in the morning, challenge arnold schwarzenegger (when he was mr universe) to an arm wrestling match, and summarily mop the floor with him.
By the time you're level 16, you can literally throw another person over your shoulders and move as if you weren't carrying anything. You are so strong that carrying another human being can be done without you even noticing they are there.

That's pretty darn heroic.

But we've established that that's somehow not heroic because our other stats are 'only human'.
So we use a 32 point buy. Now, we can have two straight 18s. We can be the strongest, AND the smartest. The most nimble, AND the wisest. The most intelligent, and the most charming. But our other stats are all less than average.
Being the strongest, and the most beautiful and charming person, both at the same time, isn't enough, because I'm still not more agile than the gymnast rogue. The wizard who's dedicated his life to being intelligent is smarter than me. This can't stand. 45 point buy!
Or roll the dice and hope for two 18s, a 16, a 15, and a 12. Then, maybe, we'll be heroic. not as heroic as the guy who rolled 6 18s, but still acceptable.

Anyway, I'm off on a tangent. My point is, trolls are supposed to be scary because they're stronger and tougher than any human being who's ever lived. Nymphs are immpressive and awe-inspiring because their beauty and presence is greater than that of every movie star who's ever smiled for the camera. Dragons are intimidating because they're not just big strong lizards, they're big strong lizards who are SMARTER THAN YOU.
I'm not trying to belittle anyone here. Some people want more powerful games, and that's cool. Everyone has what they like. But I think sometimes people get it in their head that the 'base' power line is way, way higher than it is.


*********************************************

That all said, there is one thing our group does from time to time that I kind of enjoy, which adds a (small) organic factor.
First, roll 2d6. 1 is STR, 2 is DEX, 3 is CON, 4 is INT, 5 is WIS, 6 is CHA. So if you roll a 1 and a 5, you have STR and WIS.
Now flip a coin. One of those stats is heads, one is tails (your call). The one that comes up gets +2, the one that is down gets -2.
You can do this up to three times, and it won't stack with itself (you re-roll if you get the same numbers), for a total of +2 to three stats, and -2 to three stats, which you didn't have any direct control over.

Then you use point buy and racial modifiers as normal.

I like it for a few reasons. It's numerically balanced, there's no strict mathematical advantage to it. It lets you mix/max a little, but you don't get to pick which stats get the boost and which get the penalty. You get an organic element of random birth coupled with a little guided control via point buy.
The biggest drawback is that it allows starting stats of 22 if you luck out. A Halfling who rolled and flipped high for DEX basically gets a +4 racial modifier instead of a plus 2. The benefit of that being that at least you're further hindered in some other way.

We don't do it often enough though, usually we just stick with point buy.

raygungothic
2007-12-18, 11:30 AM
If I wanted non-random character generation I'd play something different, I think. Not that there's anything particularly wrong with point buy, it's just not a flavour I associate with D&D.

I was skeptical of 4d6-drop-lowest at first, but I actually think it's pretty clever. Six rolls of 4d6-drop very rarely produces a spread problematically far removed from "PC average", particularly when combined with the way the modifiers are assigned. Joe getting one more +1 and Bob getting one more -1 than the rest of the party isn't going to screw them up for life, and bigger deviations are rare. However, it still manages somehow to keep enough variance to retain the old "character creation is unpredictable" feeling, and 18s are still special (just about 10% of characters will have one, if my calculations are correct, so not even every PARTY will have an 18!)

I tend to feel that purely points-generated characters are MORE disposable because you can replicate them perfectly any time - and, in effect, you get any number of shots at generating the character. There's something special about the one-shot nature of rolling: sit before your DM and roll six lots of dice, no more. As you only get to do this once, it grants your character a tiny veneer of nonreplicability. Maybe not functionally speaking, admittedly... but there is a sort of psychological effect there.

(I'm really lucky in my player group, though, who are a pretty mature lot and can usually be trusted to behave sensibly in matters of crunch. I would probably have a different attitude with a different party)

CabbageTheif
2007-12-18, 11:43 AM
life is not fair, and the paradox of D&D is the attempt to make a realistic surreal scenario. for this reason, the average human has stats that are... average. having a 15 makes you far more powerful than an average human to begin with; that is why a first level fighter can kick the crud out of a first level warrior. if others have an 18 and you have an 8, well, thats life. i will agree that point buy is more fair, but i dont want it to be fair. sometimes its the character with the involved backstory who fails his fortitude save, and there is no explanation why that happens and his unnamed cohort lives. thats life.

plus, it is far quicker and simpler to roll than pointby. i did it once, and whne i changed my mind and wanted to switch some numbers it was an issue, redoing the math like that. sheesh!

Emperor Demonking
2007-12-18, 11:46 AM
I prefer pointbuy as if you want to play a wizard you can and if you want to play a monk you can.
Wheras with rolling you've iether got wizard rolls or monk rolls.

Sleet
2007-12-18, 11:48 AM
if others have an 18 and you have an 8, well, thats life.

I don't play D&D to get an object lesson in life's unfairness. I'm quite aware that life is arbitrary and unfair, and frankly I play D&D largely to get away from that sort of thing.

Tormsskull
2007-12-18, 11:49 AM
*snip*

I totally agree. I get very agitated when players keep elevating their expectations on the stats. I cut my teeth on Basic D&D 3d6 down the line. If you somehow managed to get an 18, OMG! It was a huge accomplishment.

Now-a-days 18's are no big deal. Especially with point-buy when you can simply choose to have an 18.

That's one of the main reasons I like the idea of hidden scores. In my homecreated system, the stats range from 1-100. When a player rolls their stats they don't get to see what they actually rolled. I have them roll behind a screen, tally up the numbers, then give them a description of their stats and where they want to put them.

Instead of having an +4 Mod to Hit and Damage, in my system the players have "Exceptional" Strength. Or "Incredible" strength. Sometimes I change the words in-between campaigns just to keep them guessing.

What does this do? It makes it where the players only have a round-about idea of their stats, and since they don't know their exact modifiers, the stats tend to fade into the background. Visually we all know that Jake the Barbarian looks way stronger than Rex the Rogue (Exceptional Strength versus Disappointing Strength), but mechanically the players don't know the difference.

Mr. Friendly
2007-12-18, 11:53 AM
I totally agree. I get very agitated when players keep elevating their expectations on the stats. I cut my teeth on Basic D&D 3d6 down the line. If you somehow managed to get an 18, OMG! It was a huge accomplishment.

Now-a-days 18's are no big deal. Especially with point-buy when you can simply choose to have an 18.

That's one of the main reasons I like the idea of hidden scores. In my homecreated system, the stats range from 1-100. When a player rolls their stats they don't get to see what they actually rolled. I have them roll behind a screen, tally up the numbers, then give them a description of their stats and where they want to put them.

Instead of having an +4 Mod to Hit and Damage, in my system the players have "Exceptional" Strength. Or "Incredible" strength. Sometimes I change the words in-between campaigns just to keep them guessing.

What does this do? It makes it where the players only have a round-about idea of their stats, and since they don't know their exact modifiers, the stats tend to fade into the background. Visually we all know that Jake the Barbarian looks way stronger than Rex the Rogue (Exceptional Strength versus Disappointing Strength), but mechanically the players don't know the difference.


What about rolling to hit? Making skill checks?

Zaggab
2007-12-18, 11:57 AM
In my group we prefer point-buy.

Why?

Because last time we tried 4d6 drop lowest, one player got 12 as his lowest stat, and all others over 14 with 2 18.

Another player rolled not a single stat over 12. 4 times in a row. Then we had the the extremely lucky players (there were two with extremely good stats) re-roll so that they wouldn't have twice the sum of modifiers as the other players.

This took so much time and was so cumbersome, that we simply decided it was quicker, easier, more balanced and, most importantly, more fun to use point-buy.

Roderick_BR
2007-12-18, 12:00 PM
You can add that rolling doesn't allow players to create character sheets before hand (unless they roll before hand while the DM watches, or trusts them), and point buy has space for min-maxing.

Tormsskull
2007-12-18, 12:18 PM
What about rolling to hit? Making skill checks?

You mean because it is hidden from players? I have one of those handy-dandy DM Screens with artwork on the front for the players to get mesmerized by, and a bunch of details on the other side for me. I paper-clip several items to the back of that screen, including each of the PC's Attribute mods.

When I call for a check, or they chose to make a check, I simply add in their mod to the total they say they got. It actually works out pretty well, for most groups.

Artanis
2007-12-18, 12:27 PM
I like point buy because I know what it's like to play a worthless character. For some people, being totally and utterly useless may be fun, but I'm not one of those people. If my character is mathematically incapable of contributing to the party, then I'm not going to have any fun.

At that point, I'm left with two options:
1) Get a new character
2) Leave the game

To the person who said that they'd tell the player of a suicidal character to "GTFO": you are saying that you do not care whether one of your players is having fun. You would rather kick a player out than allow them to have fun, and to me, that is simply unacceptable.

Duke of URL
2007-12-18, 12:52 PM
I like point buy because I know what it's like to play a worthless character.

That's what re-rolls are for. No DM should ever make you play a "gimped" character because of bad ability rolls.

On the other hand, if you convinced yourself in advance to play a MAD class and only have one very good/exceptional stat... well, you can either try a different concept, or a tough Diplomacy check on the DM...

Kurald Galain
2007-12-18, 01:02 PM
In my opinion, what's worse than a "gimped" character is a bland character.

The first time I rolled up a character, I had no scores under ten... and no scores over twelve either. Yay.

Roderick_BR
2007-12-18, 01:12 PM
In my opinion, what's worse than a "gimped" character is a bland character.

The first time I rolled up a character, I had no scores under ten... and no scores over twelve either. Yay.
My friend once rolled four 10s, a 9 and a 12. He said he was going to call his character Medium Averagius :smallbiggrin:

bluish_wolf
2007-12-18, 01:12 PM
Why is everyone putting gimped in scare quotes?

Tormsskull
2007-12-18, 01:30 PM
Why is everyone putting gimped in scare quotes?

Because a lot of people tend to use the word gimped to mean "Not super awesome". When it really means "horribly bad". If a character has all 8's, I would call them gimped. But when a character has 15, 14, 12, 11, 9, 8, they are not gimped, but since those scores are less than great, some would say they were gimped, thus leading to "gimped".

Dausuul
2007-12-18, 01:36 PM
I think part of the reason for "ability score creep" is that when you look at how they actually affect a character's capabilities, an 18 isn't much different from a 14, or a 14 from a 10. It's another +2 on some rolls, whoopty doo. Strength at least has a clear manifestation in terms of how much you can carry, but for most of the other stats, it's all just abstract numbers. So people want stats where those numeric modifiers are high enough to really feel the impact.

Consider the difference between an 18 Dex (Olympic gymnast) and a 10 Dex (man on the street). When attempting any given Dex-based task, there is a 20% chance that the gymnast's superior Dexterity will actually come into play. The rest of the time, either both succeed or both fail. This is not conducive to creating a sense of "My character is one of the most agile human beings ever born."

Counterspin
2007-12-18, 01:44 PM
As someone who greatly enjoys the tactical side of D&D, I stick to an array because it starts everyone out on equal footing. A big chunk of D&D is still a war game, and I don't want to start my players off on unequal footing when it comes to combat.

Craig1f
2007-12-18, 01:50 PM
I think part of the reason for "ability score creep" is that when you look at how they actually affect a character's capabilities, an 18 isn't much different from a 14, or a 14 from a 10. It's another +2 on some rolls, whoopty doo. Strength at least has a clear manifestation in terms of how much you can carry, but for most of the other stats, it's all just abstract numbers. So people want stats where those numeric modifiers are high enough to really feel the impact.

Consider the difference between an 18 Dex (Olympic gymnast) and a 10 Dex (man on the street). When attempting any given Dex-based task, there is a 20% chance that the gymnast's superior Dexterity will actually come into play. The rest of the time, either both succeed or both fail. This is not conducive to creating a sense of "My character is one of the most agile human beings ever born."

I think you hit the nail on the head. Adding a simple +2 or +3 to various checks does not seem all that important.

Now, over the course of a PC's life (hopefully), they will have rolled so many times that that +3 has come into play many times. But simply having a +1 just seems so unimportant.

And 10s are just SO boring. You're +0. Whoopidy do. In fact, I prefer an 8 to a 10 because something is modified in some way.

I feel the same way about hit points. "Oh man, I got a level. Suck on my Barbarian's d12 hit die. Um, I rolled a 1. I get... 4 hitpoints"

I haven't DM's yet, but if I do, I will allow HD rerolls as rewards in lieu of experience (since I'm in favor of everyone leveling at the same time). I'll probably let them trade an action point for a single re-roll or something as well.

Craig1f
2007-12-18, 01:58 PM
You know what you could also do that would be interesting?

Have a rigid rolling system. However, for every point under some number (say 84) that the player's total roll is, they are rewarded with some luck-based thing.

Maybe, for every 3 points you are under, you get a luck feat. Or you start with a bunch of action points. Or you start with more money.

Someone would have to come up with a system for it, but it would allow for a wider array of ability scores, but make up for low rolls with luck feats, or general feats, or skill points, or action points, or some other kind of perks.

After all, if you roll low, and you're still an adventurer, there must be SOME reason why you have the potential to be a hero, since you have mundane abilities. You must be very lucky or skillful in some atypical way.

SilverClawShift
2007-12-18, 02:11 PM
After all, if you roll low, and you're still an adventurer, there must be SOME reason why you have the potential to be a hero, since you have mundane abilities. You must be very lucky or skillful in some atypical way.

I'm remembering a line... I can't recall where it's from, but it's some superhero confiding in someone he loved about how afraid he always felt when things started to turn violent (even though he had a reputation for being very calm and collected).

The line was "Half of being a hero is being the guy who was lucky enough to duck at the right time".

EvilJames
2007-12-18, 02:22 PM
We generally don't allow rerolls in most cases in my game the low stats add to the excitment and amusement of all (a bard a friend of mine played had a wisdom of 3) Rolling is great for when you really aren't sure what you want to play, Just let the dice decide if you end up crappy joe fighter, revel in it and you might find him the most fun thing you've played in years.

On the other hand point buy systems are great if you know exactly what you want to play because the dice are indeed fickle and rarely generous (at least to me) I've also never been in a point buy game where anyone involved had 3 18's ususally the points are also used for other things so if you want your character to be the perfect example of humanity then he's going to suck at actually doing anything.

GoC
2007-12-18, 06:24 PM
I think part of the reason for "ability score creep" is that when you look at how they actually affect a character's capabilities, an 18 isn't much different from a 14, or a 14 from a 10. It's another +2 on some rolls, whoopty doo. Strength at least has a clear manifestation in terms of how much you can carry, but for most of the other stats, it's all just abstract numbers. So people want stats where those numeric modifiers are high enough to really feel the impact.

Consider the difference between an 18 Dex (Olympic gymnast) and a 10 Dex (man on the street). When attempting any given Dex-based task, there is a 20% chance that the gymnast's superior Dexterity will actually come into play. The rest of the time, either both succeed or both fail. This is not conducive to creating a sense of "My character is one of the most agile human beings ever born."

And that my friend is the problem with D20. Sometimes it's 20% and other times it's 75%.

Kaelik
2007-12-18, 08:36 PM
I think part of the reason for "ability score creep" is that when you look at how they actually affect a character's capabilities, an 18 isn't much different from a 14, or a 14 from a 10. It's another +2 on some rolls, whoopty doo. Strength at least has a clear manifestation in terms of how much you can carry, but for most of the other stats, it's all just abstract numbers. So people want stats where those numeric modifiers are high enough to really feel the impact.

One exception I'd say is Spellcasters. Their primary attribute is really important.

It effects bonus spells and DCs sure. But one thing to keep in mind is that you need an inherent 1X to be able to cast X level spells. If you are going to be a spellcaster who uses save or effects, you practically require a 16 base at level one to still be up there at level 10-15. Of course if you don't intend to play that far it isn't such a big deal.

But all the same, spellcasters stats have much greater effects then any other character, Str based THFs next, then everyone else with their +3 to a d20 roll.

Fax Celestis
2007-12-18, 08:54 PM
There's always the option of using alternate rolling methods. 5d4, 1d10+8, 4d6 (drop lowest), and 1d12+6 all have merit.

Ashes
2007-12-18, 09:05 PM
Nothing but point buy. Ever. Most of the group gets crappy stats when we roll, two guys always get great stats. It's not very fun. Also, I'm of the persuasion that you should play your character as the ability scores allow. If you have a low Intelligence, you're not gonna be the one who figures out the puzzle, if you have a low Charisma you shouldn't be the charming talker, or the inspirational commander. It just doesn't feel right, therefore I like having the opportunity to set my own stats, to make sure I can do what I feel this character should do, and be crappy at what this character should suck at.

Prometheus
2007-12-18, 09:22 PM
There's always the option of using alternate rolling methods. 5d4, 1d10+8, 4d6 (drop lowest), and 1d12+6 all have merit.
I like 4d6 (drop lowest). It stops players from rolling 3s, it guarantees them some stats to work with, and it will also likely give them some 8s to have to work around. I know very little about the others.

Another point of variation is that I let my players chose which stats go where. But if I was a character looking for a direction, I'd roll up each stat in order.

tyckspoon
2007-12-18, 09:29 PM
I like 4d6 (drop lowest). It stops players from rolling 3s, it guarantees them some stats to work with, and it will also likely give them some 8s to have to work around. I know very little about the others.


4d6 drop low makes a 3 less likely, but not impossible; you need more than 3 dice to count or use a version that has a +X element to achieve impossibility. However, if somebody does manage to roll a 3, I think there's a pretty good chance the penalty will drag down their sum modifier enough to qualify for a reroll.

Cruiser1
2007-12-18, 10:02 PM
I definitely prefer point buy. However, I like this combined with the form where higher stats cost more points (like in the stat generation PC program that came with the 3.0 PHB).

In other words, it costs 1 point to raise a stat by 1 up to 14. It costs 2 points to raise a stat by 1 to 15 or 16. It costs 3 points to raise a stat by 1 to 17 or 18.

That allows a character with one dependent ability (like INT for a Wiz, or CHA for a Sor) to get an 18 if they really want it, but it will cost them. However a character dependent on multiple abilities like a Fighter can get say multiple 16's (a higher total modifier, but more balanced across stats).

Kaelik
2007-12-18, 10:08 PM
I definitely prefer point buy. However, I like this combined with the form where higher stats cost more points (like in the stat generation PC program that came with the 3.0 PHB).

In other words, it costs 1 point to raise a stat by 1 up to 14. It costs 2 points to raise a stat by 1 to 15 or 16. It costs 3 points to raise a stat by 1 to 17 or 18.

That allows a character with one dependent ability (like INT for a Wiz, or CHA for a Sor) to get an 18 if they really want it, but it will cost them. However a character dependent on multiple abilities like a Fighter can get say multiple 16's (a higher total modifier, but more balanced across stats).

That's the most common way that PB is handled, and the only one in the DMG. It's also what pretty much everyone in this thread was talking about.

Baidas Kebante
2007-12-18, 10:43 PM
In my group we prefer point-buy.

Why?

Because last time we tried 4d6 drop lowest, one player got 12 as his lowest stat, and all others over 14 with 2 18.

Another player rolled not a single stat over 12. 4 times in a row. Then we had the the extremely lucky players (there were two with extremely good stats) re-roll so that they wouldn't have twice the sum of modifiers as the other players.

This took so much time and was so cumbersome, that we simply decided it was quicker, easier, more balanced and, most importantly, more fun to use point-buy.

A long time ago when I was still gaming (no one games in Hong Kong :smallfrown:), we ran into a similar problem. So we came up with a compromise we called "Average/Cap". We found that it made everyone relatively balanced, didn't depend too much on luck and still kept the characters from being over- or under-powered.

The idea is that the DM chooses what would be an appropriate average score for the campaign and the maximum score a character can attain at character creation. As an example, the DM may decide that 12 is an average score and highest result possible should be 18.

Then, all players roll 3d6 three times (half the total number of attributes a character has). They look at their results and pair each one with a score that would create the established average. For example, if I rolled a 10, 18 and 5 then I would know that my other three scores are 14 (avg of 10 and 14 is 12), 6 (avg of 6 and 18 is 12) and 18 (avg of 5 and 19 is 12, but the cap is 18). That means that my list of scores will be 18, 18, 14, 10, 6 and 5. Some really good scores, some pretty bad ones, and some that are decent.

If the DM wanted higher or lower scores in general, he'd alter the average as appropriate. Normally, he wouldn't raise the cap, but he did do lower it once for a challenge. As a group we liked this method because we weren't all concerned with heroic attributes and simply wanted to have something balanced that could be applied to almost any class and would also be comparable to each other.

Kompera
2007-12-18, 11:22 PM
Point Buy and Rolling, the two most common methods of attribute generation. Personally I sit on the fence between the two. On the one hand I like the safe predictability of point buy from both a player and DM perspective. On the other hand there is a bit of gambler's thrill in rolling for the character.

Most people I game with prefer rolling, but it always degenerates into the same predictable scenario:

Player: "I rolled crap, I want to roll over."
DM: "Your stats aren't crap."
Player: "But everyone else rolled at least 1 18!"
DM: "Tough luck. Deal with it."

At this point Player either whines and cries until DM gives in or, as is more common....

Player: "Ok, Ted the Crappy Fighter charges the (monster)." or "I open the door, before the Rogue checks it."

In short the "character" has a suicidal death wish until he dies and the player rolls a new character, disrupting the game.

By contrast, point buy is kind of bland, though more stable.

[snippage]

Anything I am missing?

So, how about it d6 lovers, tell everyone why point buy sucks.

Point buy lovers, tell everyone why random stats suck.

Round 1: FIGHT!

The thing you are missing is maturity (not personal maturity, you're missing seeing it in your groups). My group has always used a die rolling char gen method. It's typically the fairly generous 4D6 drop lowest roll method. And there is always the "barrel maker" (i.e That character becomes a barrel maker, roll over.) option to discard a character and reroll.

I have on rare occasions heard things like "Every stat of mine is lower than the highest stat of that type in the group", but that has never led to mindless suicide or endless kvetching. High stats are nice, but character class and gear is better. The one player who complained that he was eclipsed in every stat by another player is a Priest, has the best AC of the group, and has been a very respectable combatant as well as a healer. My Barbarian/Fighter, in contrast, has very good physical stats and no horrible stats. I am a combat monster offensively, but I'm hit more often since I'm using a 2HW and I have little else to offer to the group other than combat proficiency. My Craft(weapon) has not yet come into play, and it is frankly mostly a role playing skill since any weapon I can craft the group can find for sale. My Ride, Jump, and Intimidate skills have never been used. Meanwhile, the Clerics high Wisdom have let his Spot and Listen rolls actually work for him, while mine have been mostly useless.

I haven't GMed in a while, but I think I'd use some kind of array with a few points swappage built in. This way the characters would not be exactly identical, and they would have some kind of customization on top of a set baseline. I think this gives the less MAD classes an advantage, so I might work class into the calculation. Perhaps Monks would get +5 stats, Fighters/Paladins/Rangers +3, and all other classes +1 on top of a set array.

Talic
2007-12-19, 01:25 AM
I prefer pooled rolling.

Each of 6 players rolls a stat (4D6, drop low). The stats are combined to have 6 seperate stats. Players vote on keep or toss, majority win. Each player takes those 6, arranges as desired.

This way, everyone has balance, in having the same stats.

If there's less than 6 players, then DM makes up for it. If there's more, then only 6 roll.

mockingbyrd7
2007-12-19, 01:34 AM
I don't like these threads usually, but it's a fresh one so I'll say my piece before it gets too bogged down with people trying to ram opinions down each other's throats.

I like rolling because it's fun. My group is sensible enough to allow rerolls when bad stats come up, so we don't get crippled characters. Point buy just doesn't have the excitement of rolling, so we don't use it.

Same here. Same, same, same. I agree.

Crow
2007-12-19, 01:56 AM
We roll because it's fun. I give a choice between -4d6 drop lowest- and -3d6 rerolling 1's-.

On occasions where everybody is rolling up at the same time, everybody rolls an array, and then I (the DM) roll an array. Then the players can bid on my numbers using their own.

If somebody wants my 18, they may bid their 15. Then another player may bid their 16...

Whoever wins gets my 18, and loses whatever number they were willing to sacrifice.

herrhauptmann
2007-12-19, 02:10 AM
In almost all cases, I prefer to roll my stats. The times I don't are when the DM continually focuses on one player being 'the best,' and having all NPC's remark on it and act accordingly. Regardless of whether it was appropriate or not.

For example, I rolled a character, 17str, 18 con, 15dex, 13int, 14wis, and 7cha. Awesome stats for a sword and board meatshield. Character enjoyed fighting, not jsut to the death, but for fun, for practice, to 'teach' others to be better combatants.
The DM continually treated our ranger 19str and average everything else (fav enemy undead and constructs for RP reasons), 1 bastard sword and a hand crossbow as weapons (again for RP reasons). Ranger was continually being billed as the greatest warrior in the group (despite being anything but the physically strongest), to the point where commoner NPCs would treat my guy like crap but fawn over the other. (Lawful character, can't just stab a guy)

ANyway, like I said, aside from DM favoritism, I prefer rolling my character out.
I personally believe that it makes for more interesting characters. How can you explain a 2nd ed warrior with int and str both as 16s? (Rolled each stat in order, no changes) I wasn't too much of a roleplayer at the time, but I still came up with good backstories.

Dausuul
2007-12-19, 02:26 AM
In almost all cases, I prefer to roll my stats. The times I don't are when the DM continually focuses on one player being 'the best,' and having all NPC's remark on it and act accordingly. Regardless of whether it was appropriate or not.

For example, I rolled a character, 17str, 18 con, 15dex, 13int, 14wis, and 7cha. Awesome stats for a sword and board meatshield. Character enjoyed fighting, not jsut to the death, but for fun, for practice, to 'teach' others to be better combatants.
The DM continually treated our ranger 19str and average everything else (fav enemy undead and constructs for RP reasons), 1 bastard sword and a hand crossbow as weapons (again for RP reasons). Ranger was continually being billed as the greatest warrior in the group (despite being anything but the physically strongest), to the point where commoner NPCs would treat my guy like crap but fawn over the other. (Lawful character, can't just stab a guy)

Wait... did you say you had a 7 Charisma?

I don't think you can legitimately complain about NPCs treating you like crap.

Charlemagne
2007-12-19, 06:37 AM
I like point buy, because... I like making my character, if I want to play a Fighter who is all Brawn, dumb as a rock and ugly as hell, I can. -shrugs-

Besides, point buy makes min-maxing easier.

Sstoopidtallkid
2007-12-19, 07:29 AM
I prefer point-buy, just because in one of my first RP experiences (homebrew system, 9 stats, 3d6), I rolled one 15, one 10, and the rest below 9. And the kicker? That was my re-roll. I ended up stuck with that until I could RP him retiring to a monastary.

Plus, I hate playing guys with really bad mental stats, and when I roll, I always end up with at least one with a - modifier. Those just bug me to try to rollplay.

Sebastian
2007-12-19, 07:37 AM
and I like rolling (but strictly in order, if you had to roll and assign then just go with point buy IMHO) because you can never tell what you will got, for example you could want to play a fighter but roll an average strength and high Int and come up with some way to still play the character you wanted, there were some options for high Int fighters even in 2nd ed, or you could play a wizard built as much as for melee as it was possible not maximed maybe, but it can be a lot of fun. Or even have an idea for a totally new character.

Beside rolling is fun. If I'd want to make my characters exactly how I want I'd play GURPS, or M&M or some other game like them.

Frosty
2007-12-19, 11:43 AM
Point buy if you want to play a character-concept you already have in mind. Rolling if you want to form your character concept after you roll.

ghost_warlock
2007-12-19, 01:59 PM
I prefer point-buy. I figure there's enough randomness and imbalance in the game as it is.

Tengu
2007-12-19, 02:10 PM
Point buy if you want to play a character-concept you already have in mind. Rolling if you want to form your character concept after you roll.

That's actually one of the most reasonable, yet simple answers to the question I've heard. It also shows why I prefer point-buy: because I almost always have the concept first and actual character creation later.

And there's the balance issue, and the fact that I consider rolling before the game even starts (and during leveling - I hate the idea of random HP per level) a relic of the past. And I don't play DND, but games where rolling for stats would usually be much more complicated and point-buy is default.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-19, 02:23 PM
I dislike both systems.

At least, the classic alternatives. 4d6 is TOO random and turns chargen into a game of bingo (I GOT A 18!), and 25, 28, or 32 point buy means you're going to either have a less than average stat or two, or be average AT EVERYTHING, with no highpoint. That is not a representation of even a normal human being, since nearly everyone is ALL average with a highpoint or two, and this is supposed to be a game in which we are on the road to become living legends, people who, if we are lucky enough to survive a long time, will be eating gods for breakfast, and far too many times have I rolled full 3's to believe in the dicerolls being good at shaping a character,. On the other hand, D&D chars eat gods for breakfast IN THE LONG RUN. No one is supposed to play Superman right off the bat. Maybe the nonwizardly Batman, who is at peak human condition (2 or 3 18's at most) of mind and body, but no more. For this reason, I personally prefer nonstandard point buys, which usually bring a bigger balance.


For example, my current favorite is one on one pointbuy. All your stats start at 0 and you get a number of points to distribute as you want, which I've seen ranging from 60 to 100 to 108 (Superman, in other words). Usually, something in the 80's vicinity is used, since it allows a character to have a few maxed stats (a psywar I'm currently playing has an 18 in CON, STR, and WIS, and 14 in INT and 10 in CHA and DEX), or all round above average stats. It allows you to play someone who is a hero, yet isn't more powerful than a few gods at 1st level.

Duke of URL
2007-12-19, 02:34 PM
and 25, 28, or 32 point buy means you're going to either have a less than average stat or two, or be average AT EVERYTHING, with no highpoint.

Average at everything would be a 12 point buy.

SoD
2007-12-19, 02:37 PM
I always roll for stats. I just like the extra chance of it. Also, I don't reroll stats, if I need to put a 3 somewhere, I'll put a 3 somewhere. If I end up with six 3's to put...well, I'll do it. But I don't expect people to complain if I end up with 6 18's. Sadly, I am yet to manage that...

Mr. Friendly
2007-12-19, 02:41 PM
I always roll for stats. I just like the extra chance of it. Also, I don't reroll stats, if I need to put a 3 somewhere, I'll put a 3 somewhere. If I end up with six 3's to put...well, I'll do it. But I don't expect people to complain if I end up with 6 18's. Sadly, I am yet to manage that...

Well, first the 3e+ PHB says you should reroll any character that isn't net +1 stat boni. Aside from that, how much fun could you honestly have playing a character with 3s down the line?

SoD
2007-12-19, 02:44 PM
I know what it says about rerolling, I just don't like it. Feels like adjusting the reality of my character. And what to do with a character with all 3's? Find a good way to get killed, a memorable one so that people will say ''Ah yes, I remember him. He was absolutely hopeless at everything! Remember how he died? Oh, that was brilliant, etc''.

I'd probably give him levels in commoner as well.

horseboy
2007-12-19, 04:57 PM
I don't like rolling, as it reminds me of my munchkin days. Sure, I started all sweet and innocent, with the default, 3d6 put it where you want it. Then I started hanging out with the "bad" crowd doing the 4d6. Then it went to 4d6 drop 1's, then drop 1 & 2's, then 1, 2 & 3's. Finally after I started DM'ing it annoyed me just how long that took, so I decreed d20, reroll single digits. 19 is 18 with a +1 to a stat of your choice, 20 a +2. So abusive.

Then point buy started showing up in systems and I learned how to actually craft a character. Now a days, the only games I still play with rolling as the default are relics from the 80's. (Traveler & Rolemaster mainly)

Mr. Friendly
2007-12-19, 06:41 PM
I know what it says about rerolling, I just don't like it. Feels like adjusting the reality of my character. And what to do with a character with all 3's? Find a good way to get killed, a memorable one so that people will say ''Ah yes, I remember him. He was absolutely hopeless at everything! Remember how he died? Oh, that was brilliant, etc''.

I'd probably give him levels in commoner as well.

So, you spend time and energy making a character, then kill him off, wasting more game time, then spend even more time making a new character....

That, uh, sounds like a waste of time.

EvilJames
2007-12-21, 02:59 AM
So, you spend time and energy making a character, then kill him off, wasting more game time, then spend even more time making a new character....

That, uh, sounds like a waste of time.

Not if he and the other players are having a good time (Besides I doubt he puts too much thought into such a character, since realisticly such a character wouldn't put much thought into anything at all, just die in some fantasticly embarassing manner.)

Talic
2007-12-21, 03:01 AM
Not if he and the other players are having a good time (Besides I doubt he puts too much thought into such a character, since realisticly such a character wouldn't put much thought into anything at all, just die in some fantasticly embarassing manner.)

Ah but for even such a lackadaisical character to seem realistic, some thought must be put into his random blunderings.

EvilJames
2007-12-22, 03:35 PM
not much thought. After all the character has a 3 Int and Wis, so pretty much anything sounds like a good idea to him.

The most thought would go into "How much bang for the buck can you get" basically how spectacularly can this guy die, for the benefit at all.

JMobius
2007-12-22, 04:03 PM
For example, my current favorite is one on one pointbuy. All your stats start at 0 and you get a number of points to distribute as you want, which I've seen ranging from 60 to 100 to 108 (Superman, in other words). Usually, something in the 80's vicinity is used, since it allows a character to have a few maxed stats (a psywar I'm currently playing has an 18 in CON, STR, and WIS, and 14 in INT and 10 in CHA and DEX), or all round above average stats. It allows you to play someone who is a hero, yet isn't more powerful than a few gods at 1st level.

My old GM used a system similar to this, which I inherited. The only distinction is that that we use 4d6 drop lowest, repeated six times, to generate the pool for each character. This makes for some randomness involved, but removes the significance of individual rolls -- getting one 18 isn't really all that important if your next roll is a 9. I also have on further rule that all stats have to be at least 8 (before racial modifiers).

This approach has panned out pretty well for me in practice, both as a player and a GM.

#Raptor
2007-12-22, 11:39 PM
How do you guys think about rolling untill the roll equals, say, a 32 pointbuy?
Perhaps with the added rule that players may either take 38 pb or roll untill the roll equals 32 pb.
Final roll equals a 33 pb? "Bad luck", thought the char probably still isn't going to be a useless. Final roll equals a 50+ pb? Never been a better time for a MAD class than now.

Some randomness, but not as much as with regular rolling, and it ensures that nobody is going to be overly weak - and if you get lucky (multiple 18s), you didn't waste those. (As it would be the case with a "not over..." rule.)

Of course the same could also be done with 28 pb baseline, or less.

horseboy
2007-12-23, 10:59 AM
How do you guys think about rolling untill the roll equals, say, a 32 pointbuy?
Perhaps with the added rule that players may either take 38 pb or roll untill the roll equals 32 pb.
It'd take too long. May as well just do a 32 pt buy.

Kurald Galain
2007-12-23, 11:28 AM
How do you guys think about rolling untill the roll equals, say, a 32 pointbuy?


The easiest way to do that (without taking, like, forever) is to roll for five stats, add those up as if it were point buy, and use whatever buy points remain for the sixth stat.

souldoubt
2007-12-23, 12:48 PM
I USED to prefer rolling, mostly as a matter of course because it's the default way to generate scores, but I do also like the randomness that allows for interesting ability results and combinations that I might not come up with from using point buy. Plus I find point buy to be much more time consuming.

However, I've played in more than one game where a lack of balance between the characters' scores caused problems. In at least one game, the scores I rolled were so much better than the so-so scores of my companions, it made things kind of boring for me and very inconvenient all around. While my two fellow party members were in constant danger of dying or being disabled every time we entered combat, there was never any feeling of risk or challenge for me -- I was never even reduced below half HP. So now I tend to shy away from games that use straight-up rolling without any accommodations for balance.

To say the very least, I ALWAYS prefer Fixed Progression for HP. In the game I mentioned, my character's higher Con and HD did a lot to keep him unperturbed by damage in combat, but it didn't help the situation that the other players rolled pretty crappy HP.


For rolling, I personally like the idea of setting a minimum and maximum net modifier. If you roll badly, i.e., below the minimum modifier, you get to re-roll. If you roll "too well", you still have to re-roll. Maybe it sucks to be the guy who just "wasted" an 18, 18, 18, 17, 16, 11 set, but it's good for the guy who rolled 11, 7, 6, 6, 4, 3. This imposes a level of fairness, but still keeps the randomness that comes with rolling.

I've often considered doing something like this to prevent situations like the one I described above. Maybe I will next time I run a game. By itself, rolling is problematic, but point buy feels so inorganic and inauthentic.

kentma57
2007-12-24, 09:30 AM
I prefer rolling:
-5 by 5 grid, rolling 4d6 best 3 and one free 18
-just roll 4d6 best 3 five times, reroll ones and give them a free 18

you need to have common sense though, I once rolled four 18s and two 17s, I gave them up and used different stats to be fair to the party...

PhallicWarrior
2007-12-24, 12:31 PM
I generally use point buy for character gen, at least for PC-controlled NPCs. (I run solo games for my little sister to keep my DMing skills up, and she tends to encounter NPCs that like her, KOTOR-style.) I usually let my players choose between 28 point buy, 4D6-drop-lowest, and the Elite array.

Leon
2007-12-24, 07:50 PM
Ive been a longtime 4d6 Drop lowest fan but have recently taken to point buy, however i also use a Standard Array and Elite Array of my own devising for Theoretical PCs and NPC/Monsters

My Standard is that can choose roll or buy, if you roll and dont like it i can roll for you but what you get is what you play with even if it is worse.

Zocelot
2007-12-25, 12:02 PM
The problem with rolling is that it allows for too much cheating

The chance of rolling an 18 is 1/6*1/6*(1/6*2)
Its 1 in 108
With 6 dice rolls, thats still one in 18
If you got 18 players at one table, one of them would have one 18

And yet, we've all seen the person who has two 18s on one character, or the table where everyone has an 18.
The first has a chance of one in 389
The second has a chance of 1 in 104976 (provided a small table of 4 people)

As a DM, I can say that point buy is the only way NOT to get overpowered characters.