A Marine Platoon at the Pelennor Fields

[WNxHasoroth]

Ok, a mite absurd, but consider this scenario.

The United States Marine Corp (oorah) has a force of fifty men on the ground, a platoon. They are all armed with M16A4's, with a M429 SAW for every fifth man. Additionally, they have a stockpile of five SMAWs (anti-tank).

Assume that there are no soldiers from Rohan or Gondor. And assume that the Witch Kings "Killable by no man" prophecy doesn't apply to a piece of lead through the torso.

No Aragorn, no Ghost-Soldiers. Just the thousands of Orcs, Easterlings and handfuls of Mumakil against a platoon of USMC.

Lastly, assume that the Marines have a stockpile of ammo that is easily reachable and unlimited, and the two sides have never heard of each other.

My bet, the Marines. Gun powder, stockpiles of ammo, and blowing Mumakil to pieces with SMAW's would probably break the morale of the enemy before they got close. SAWs would mow down any orc soldier getting to close while your average Marine will cut down anything he sees.

The only way I see the Orcs winning is if they manage to get their siege towers through the swarms of AT fire, and capture the ammo stockpile.

[Winterwind]

For a second there I thought you meant a platoon of Warhammer 40k Space Marines, and was paralyzed by the image of the ensuing carnage. :smallbiggrin:

Anyway, in this situation, even though I mean no offense to your brave marines, I will bet on the orcs - because, being orcs and being driven by Sauron's will, their morale will not break. And then, even if for every marine they kill they have to sacrifice a hundred, or several hundred, of their own, they will ultimately prevail. They have bows, they have almost never-ending numbers. Every now and then, they will get a marine by fluke. And the marines will have problems with their own morale due to the Nazguls' presence.

[WNxHasoroth]

Winterwind, you just gave me an idea for the next versus thread haha.

I think if you can withstand the fear of artillery you could withstand the Nazgul, long enough for you to blow them out of the sky. Arrows could kill Marines in a war of attrition, but they are out ranged by rifles.

The flood of numbers really, is the only problem, but there are enough bullets.

[Swordguy]

Pfft. Orcs.

...And not just 'cause I served in the Army and have to make fun of jarheads any chance I get. :smallbiggrin:

Seriously, human wave tactics work when the members of said wave a) don't care about taking casualties, and b) are psychologically immune to the effect of taking losses.

The orcs fill both categories.

The Marines are outnumbered 5,000 to 1 (using the PJ Movie's numbers of about a quarter million orcs as the OPFOR). Now, the movie orcs NEVER break and run. The book orcs do, but they take massive casualties, the death of their commander, and an envelopment (Rohirrim+Aragorn's reinforcements from the Anduin) before they do so.

I can tell you from personal experience that a 5.56mm round in the torso isn't even a guaranteed knockdown on a drugged-up Iraqi. You can FORGET about it being a guaranteed knockdown on a crazed Uruk, and even on a completely flat, level plain you're looking at 500 yards of fire envelope at best. Make it a company of Marines, fortified to hell and back with concertina, a pair of Ma Deuce's, and a good complement of mines and we'll talk. As it stands now? Marines wiped out to a man. Orcs take (oh, I'll be generous) 8,000 casualties (5k killed, 3k wounded). The Marines simply can't fire fast enough in enough directions to stop them.

[TheRiov]

I think its pretty well established since World War 2, that an infantry charge is pretty much ineffective against the machine gun. I'm ASSUMING that the marines are on the defensive. A flanking action by the corsairs might be an issue however, as most weapons fire will be ineffective against wooden hulled boats.

[Irenaeus]

For a second there I thought you meant a platoon of Warhammer 40k Space Marines, and was paralyzed by the image of the ensuing carnage. :smallbiggrin:

Space Marines would actually have a real problem, they have weapons that seems to have an absurdly low range when compared to the average movement rate. The bows and siege engines of Middle-Earth would crush them.

As for those other marines: I second Nazgûl, the will of Sauron and morale problems.

Edit: and as for the weapons issued in the scenario by the OP, I'd rather have any other professional military unit in the world as long as they had proper MGs instead of (or in addition to) the M249s. It's a static defense scenario after all.

[CrazedGoblin]

For a second there I thought you meant a platoon of Warhammer 40k Space Marines, and was paralyzed by the image of the ensuing carnage. :smallbiggrin:


Same hehe :smallbiggrin:

but on the whole it would look damm cool

[Winterwind]

Winterwind, you just gave me an idea for the next versus thread haha.:smalleek:


I think if you can withstand the fear of artillery you could withstand the Nazgul, long enough for you to blow them out of the sky.That's provided you even as much as see them. They are pretty good at not being seen if they don't want to, and their presence is fully sufficient.


Arrows could kill Marines in a war of attrition, but they are out ranged by rifles.Sure they are, but when there's a sea of orcs approaching you, preferably using any covers they can find, some will get into reach.


The flood of numbers really, is the only problem, but there are enough bullets.Bullets, yeah. Soldiers shooting the bullets, no. :smallwink:


I think its pretty well established since World War 2, that an infantry charge is pretty much ineffective against the machine gun. I'm ASSUMING that the marines are on the defensive. A flanking action by the corsairs might be an issue however, as most weapons fire will be ineffective against wooden hulled boats.I'd say it's rather inefficient. But if you outnumber your opponent thousandfold and don't give a boop about your own losses (and neither do your troops), I don't really think it matters anymore. The argument was stated far more eloquently and competently by Swordguy than I could ever hope to formulate it myself.


Space Marines would actually have a real problem, they have weapons that seems to have an absurdly low range when compared to the average movement rate. The bows and siege engines of Middle-Earth would crush them.Don't want to derail the thread, but:
a) I'm pretty sure that's due to game balance issues
b) Even if that was the case, how exactly would the orcs want to breach the Space Marines' armours? Bows most definitely won't cut it here...


Same hehe :smallbiggrin:

but on the whole it would look damm coolThat it would. That it would. :smallbiggrin:

[Swordguy]

I think its pretty well established since World War 2, that an infantry charge is pretty much ineffective against the machine gun. I'm ASSUMING that the marines are on the defensive. A flanking action by the corsairs might be an issue however, as most weapons fire will be ineffective against wooden hulled boats.

The primary argument for that is the performance of massed infantry charges against emplaced MG positions during WWI. The worst examples were during Ypres, where a regiment (1,000 men) was wiped out (95+% casualties) by a trio of German machine guns.

That's significantly different than this example. Why? The ratio of chargers to defenders is absurdly higher. In addition, this platoon of Marines is sitting on the Pelennor Field. The orcs have room to flank the position. This helps the orcs two ways. First, the defenders have to spread their fire in multiple directions. Secondly (and a correllary to the first), the attackers will have less fire coming at them from a given direction.

The orcs will reach the Marines. They'll take perhaps 10 minutes worth of fire doing so (500-yard jog). At maximum effective rate of fire during that time (burning out the barrels), you're looking at 350,000 rounds going downrange. That's with ZERO time to reload (or to detail your shooters to act as ammo-bearers, which further reduces your rate of fire). Or accounting for misses (a 40% hit rate in combat is phenomenal, so we'll go with that). Or accounting for the multiple Marines targeting the same orc (wasting fire). Or accounting for the fact that you're probably looking at several rounds to reliably drop an Orc. Or the fact that the orcs will only be under accurate fire for the last third of the run.

EDIT: Dammit, forgot. Infantry charges don't work against emplacements? Don't tell Col. Robert Cole. From the Medal of Honor Recipient list:

"Citation: For gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his own life, above and beyond the call of duty on 11 June 1944, in France. Lt. Col. Cole was personally leading his battalion in forcing the last 4 bridges on the road to Carentan when his entire unit was suddenly pinned to the ground by intense and withering enemy rifle, machinegun, mortar, and artillery fire placed upon them from well-prepared and heavily fortified positions within 150 yards of the foremost elements. After the devastating and unceasing enemy fire had for over 1 hour prevented any move and inflicted numerous casualties, Lt. Col. Cole, observing this almost hopeless situation, courageously issued orders to assault the enemy positions with fixed bayonets. With utter disregard for his own safety and completely ignoring the enemy fire, he rose to his feet in front of his battalion and with drawn pistol shouted to his men to follow him in the assault. Catching up a fallen man's rifle and bayonet, he charged on and led the remnants of his battalion across the bullet-swept flat and open ground and into the enemy position. His heroic and valiant action in so inspiring his men resulted in the complete establishment of our bridgehead across the Douve River."

Or, for that matter, the North Koreans, who did pretty much the same thing dozens of times during the Korean War.

[WNxHasoroth]

I'd suggest looking at the Movie Marine rules published in a WD a while back for a real representation of a Marine.

They are insane, a ten man squad is 1500 points I think and rip through everything, my poor Leman Russ AC didn't stand a chance.

[Rare Pink Leech]

I'm also going to have to give it to the orcs. The numbers are simply against the marines. Fifty marines aren't enough to defend Minas Tirith (when you say on the ground, I assume you mean that they don't have any helicopters or other aircraft but are in the city itself). Judging from the size of the city in the movie trilogy, fifty marines wouldn't be able to cover the entire lower wall - it wouldn't matter how quickly they mow down orcs, the sheer numbers of ladders and siege towers would quickly overrun the wall. That, combined with the nazgul coming in from behind/above, and you simply don't have enough men.

Have those fifty marines supporting the other human LOTR armies, however, or increase the number of marines and increase the equipment they have with them, and methinks they would win handily.

[CrazedGoblin]

Have those fifty marines supporting the other human LOTR armies, however, or increase the number of marines and increase the equipment they have with them, and methinks they would win handily.

Artillery :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:

[Nerd-o-rama]

It goes to the orcs on sheer numbers.

A full division, Army or Marines, with artillery support could probably hold Gondor (and they wouldn't even think about sallying without air support, or at least superiority). If it's just a platoon, they get swarmed under.

Also, against orcs and mumaks you probably want higher caliber guns. 5.56mm assault rifles are efficient killing tools, but they don't have the kick to break a charge, and would probably hardly sting the elephants. Give them some more emplaced MGs (.30 cal. should do it, but .50 rounds) so they can use their rifles for cleanup.

[TheRiov]

The orcs have room to flank the position.

So the marines are not using the cities defenses either? Why not withdraw into the city and use its fortifications? All they reasonably have to do is defend the gates and hold off the Nazgul. The seige weapons will be all but useless and quickly eliminated. With unlimited supplies, there would be little chance of them breaching the walls, especially given that Minas Tirith was specifically designed to hold off invaders.

[Swordguy]

So the marines are not using the cities defenses either? Why not withdraw into the city and use its fortifications? All they reasonably have to do is defend the gates and hold off the Nazgul. The seige weapons will be all but useless and quickly eliminated. With unlimited supplies, there would be little chance of them breaching the walls, especially given that Minas Tirith was specifically designed to hold off invaders.

*shrug* The OP said "on the ground". I felt that if he had wanted them in the city, he would have mentioned it.

That said, they still don't have enough men to man the walls - the ammo situation gets worse since they're spread out over a half-mile line (the Marines designated as ammo-bearers have to truck a LOT farther and if they were in a smaller position). And since they can't man the walls, they're still vulnerable to a flanking action, since Minas Tirith has more or less a 180-degree frontage. Oh, and blowing up the siege towers? There's only 5 SMAWs. Are you gonna use them on the siege towers (of which, IIRC, there were 5) or the Mumakil, (of which there were about 20)? Either one getting to the walls will result in problems.

[Telonius]

The orcs don't even need to reach the marines. They can use the "Connecticut Yankee Gambit." Dump a bunch of the dead bodies and wait for the germs to do their work for them. And I bet that whatever diseases orcs have are much, much nastier than what humans are used to.

Or, pull back the army to out of range, and send one orc out every fifteen minutes or so. Keep the marines awake for long enough, and the fight will be over.

[TheRiov]

*shrug* The OP said "on the ground". I felt that if he had wanted them in the city, he would have mentioned it.

That said, they still don't have enough men to man the walls - the ammo situation gets worse since they're spread out over a half-mile line (the Marines designated as ammo-bearers have to truck a LOT farther and if they were in a smaller position). And since they can't man the walls, they're still vulnerable to a flanking action, since Minas Tirith has more or less a 180-degree frontage. Oh, and blowing up the siege towers? There's only 5 SMAWs. Are you gonna use them on the siege towers (of which, IIRC, there were 5) or the Mumakil, (of which there were about 20)? Either one getting to the walls will result in problems.

Unlimited ammo. They have 5 launchers.
Presumably they would be able to preposition ammunition around the outer walls. Its not like they have to ration it.
The outer walls of Minas Tirith are 100 feet tall. Only the seige towers are going to be able to top them, so eliminating the towers is the primary concern. The Mumakil are a secondary concern since they wont be terribly useful against the walls. The only other thing to defend is the gate, peventing a large battering ram (Grond) from being brought to bear.

[warty goblin]

Indeed, 50 men won't be enough to defeat Sauron's armies- all three of them. As soon as the orcs actually reach the marine's position its all over, bayonets and combat knives are poor foils for spears and axes. This isn't even mentioning bits like the marine's position being bombarded by severed heads and large rocks, and assuming that the Nazgul's terror doesn't break them. If the Marines were holed up in Minas Tirith proper, they'd do better, but eventually fall because the walls are two large for 50 men to hold, they'll be spread to thin.

Now on the WH 40K Space Marine question, about ten should be enough, assuming unlimited ammo and squad heavy weapons. For one thing, I'm pretty sure the only way Sauron could actually damage them involves immobalizing them in a sea of orcs, hauling them back to Mordor, and droping them into Mt. Doom, which would be difficult to say the least.

[Selrahc]

Now on the WH 40K Space Marine question, about ten should be enough, assuming unlimited ammo and squad heavy weapons. For one thing, I'm pretty sure the only way Sauron could actually damage them involves immobalizing them in a sea of orcs, hauling them back to Mordor, and droping them into Mt. Doom, which would be difficult to say the least.

Not if you actually want to defend the city. It would be levelled by seige weapons, even though the Space Marines would wipe out vast swathes of orcs at key spots.

Space Marines wouldn't get beaten in a fight. But they would lose.

[Swordguy]

As soon as a SMAW fires, and the realization dawns over the Nazgul over the threat they represent, each time a launch occurs they're gonna get targeted by the orcs version of air support - and shooting them down is a real problem. For one, you aren't shooting at the ground units. Two, I remain unconvinced that anything short of an M2HB is going to bring one down before it gets to the firer. Three, because people are so spread out over the wall, they can't support each other in the event of air attack from the Nazzys.

No, looking at this with a more professional eye, I'd site my platoon like this:

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n294/wolffe42/MTdefense.jpg

The platoon lies JUST outside the barbican. The size of the towers will somewhat protect against swooping air attacks, and there's enough fire in the same place to have a hope of bringing a flying beast down. The platoon is in a tight enough spot to support itself from any direction. This location maximizes concentration of fire and line of sight. The orcs basically HAVE to take this position to effectively enter the city. Unfortunately, the area they have to defend is simply too big. 50 men simply can't defend a semicircle with a quarter-mile radius. The orcs will eventually get to the far ends of the walls unhampered, bypassing the engagement area, and move along the walls towards the gate and take the position from the rear flanks.

In short, with 50 men, it's too big an area. If I had a company, I could make a go of it. Not with just a platoon.

[thorgrim29]

Tough.... I'd say the orcs, because eventually the guns will jam and/or overheat.

[Dervag]

On the Pelennor Fields themselves, I'd say the orcs win for the reasons I list below. On the walls, I don't know.


Ok, a mite absurd, but consider this scenario.

The United States Marine Corp (oorah) has a force of fifty men on the ground, a platoon. They are all armed with M16A4's, with a M429 SAW for every fifth man. Additionally, they have a stockpile of five SMAWs (anti-tank).

Assume that there are no soldiers from Rohan or Gondor. And assume that the Witch Kings "Killable by no man" prophecy doesn't apply to a piece of lead through the torso.Failing that, statistically speaking, out of a pool of 50 Marines, several of them will be women and therefore quite capable of fulfilling the prophecy under their own power with no aid whatsoever from any shieldmaiden of Rohan who may or may not be present.


No Aragorn, no Ghost-Soldiers. Just the thousands of Orcs, Easterlings and handfuls of Mumakil against a platoon of USMC.

Lastly, assume that the Marines have a stockpile of ammo that is easily reachable and unlimited, and the two sides have never heard of each other.

My bet, the Marines. Gun powder, stockpiles of ammo, and blowing Mumakil to pieces with SMAW's would probably break the morale of the enemy before they got close. SAWs would mow down any orc soldier getting to close while your average Marine will cut down anything he sees.

The only way I see the Orcs winning is if they manage to get their siege towers through the swarms of AT fire, and capture the ammo stockpile.I think the Marines would lose; they don't have enough automatic weapons. Human wave tactics can defeat a force of entrenched defenders if the numerical disparity is great enough, and in this case it is.

Think about it this way. Replace every one of those orcs with a Chinese soldier from the Korean War, and replace every one of those Marine rifles and SAWs with a BAR or a .30 caliber machine gun. The Chinese stage a bayonet charge, and we assume that they do not use their rifles or any artillery support. The Marines don't get any air support; their only artillery is bazookas.

Now, assume the battle is on a big flat plain. The Chinese have a pretty darn good chance of winning this one.

And orcs will actually have one noticeable advantage here compared to our hypothetical division of Chinese infantry- body armor. Their body armor may not stop a 5.56 mm round, but it will assuredly stop the round from penetrating more than one orc. That's going to impose a limit on the rate at which Marines can kill the orcs. If they go rock&roll most of their rounds miss high or low.

If they go for aimed fire, as per doctrine, then the sustained rate of fire is at most 12 RPM for the rifles and 85 RPM for the SAWs, according to their own publications. For a brief time (a maximum of two minutes), they can increase that; the SAWs are listed as capable of 200 RPM as a rapid rate. The rifles' rate isn't going to be all that much higher than it would be normally because the limit on the semiautomatic rate of fire for an M-16 is more a question of marksmanship and target acquisition time. On the other hand, the targets aren't concealed so they will be easy to find. Call it 20 RPM, and I suspect I'm being generous.

(see here ( www.usna.edu/USMCInfo/Documents/Pubs/b2107.pdf) for data on rate of fire)

Put simply, the Marines in question can fire about 1500-2000 rounds per minute, total. And that upper figure puts a very heavy strain on their SAWs, one that probably cannot be sustained for more than a few minutes. On the flat, they only have five or six minutes from the time when the orcs come in the maximum range that is doable with those weapons before any surviving orcs reach their position. They can put out just barely enough lead to, hypothetically, kill every orc. If they were getting one kill per round fired.

Realistically, they aren't. And if they aren't getting more than, say, one kill per two or three rounds they aren't going to win this one. So on the flat, while the orcs will take very heavy casualties, heavy enough to be likely to rout a human force of that size, I question the ability of 50 men armed as you describe to destroy a majority of the orcs. Now, if there were 12 or 13 SAWs (one per fire team, as per doctrine), and 12 or 13 M203 grenade launchers (likewise one per fire team, likewise as per doctrine), I think the Marines would have a decent chance.

Remember, they have to kill enough orcs at long range to drive them off. Once the orcs get within 100 or 200 meters, they're likely to try to carry the charge out regardless of casualties because they're less likely to die in the last 100 or 200 meters of the charge than they are retreating with the Marines shooting at them all the way.

[Mr. Mud]

The Voices in my signature told me to say Marine... Help me... :smallwink:

[Thinker]

I think its obvious that the marines would win, no contest. Everyone is greatly underestimating the power of guns. With armor piercing rounds (which they obviously have infinite of) they can kill hundreds of lined up invaders at once. Also, US Marines are the best trained and best equipped soldiers ever. I don't think it would require too much effort to accomplish this. I would bet on only a handful of marines accomplishing the same task, simply because LoTR people suck and are generally weaker and dumber than people in the real world. Hobbits and Ents, need I say more?

[Dervag]

I think its obvious that the marines would win, no contest. Everyone is greatly underestimating the power of guns. With armor piercing rounds (which they obviously have infinite of) they can kill hundreds of lined up invaders at once.I don't know if it's even possible to design an efficient armor piercing round in 5.56 mm caliber, and I'm pretty sure none exists. If no such round exists today, then it's safe to say that our hypothetical Marines on the Pelennor Fields don't have them either. It's more likely that they'd be firing standard 5.56 ball, which has both an effective range limit and a serious armor penetration problem.


Also, US Marines are the best trained and best equipped soldiers ever.The problem here is that we know exactly how well they are equipped, and I strongly suspect that even perfectly trained soldiers could not overcome that number of enemies on that terrain with those weapons. If every man in that force were a superb sniper capable of scoring 15 to 20 headshots per minute with an M-16 at ranges of several hundred meters, it might be possible, but even the US Marines don't train to that high a standard.

Now, if they're defending the walls it may well be another story.

[Swordguy]

I don't know if it's even possible to design an efficient armor piercing round in 5.56 mm caliber, and I'm pretty sure none exists. If no such round exists today, then it's safe to say that our hypothetical Marines on the Pelennor Fields don't have them either. It's more likely that they'd be firing standard 5.56 ball, which has both an effective range limit and a serious armor penetration problem.

The problem here is that we know exactly how well they are equipped, and I strongly suspect that even perfectly trained soldiers could not overcome that number of enemies on that terrain with those weapons. If every man in that force were a superb sniper capable of scoring 15 to 20 headshots per minute with an M-16 at ranges of several hundred meters, it might be possible, but even the US Marines don't train to that high a standard.

Now, if they're defending the walls it may well be another story.

I think his post was sarcasm. He just forgot to tag it that way.

[Hawriel]

Swordguy please correct me if im wrong.


MYTH The USMC or any other branch of the military do not have the very best ever mony can buy. Alot of there equipment is the best but not all. Im not just talking about GPC game boys that let generals micromanage at the squad level or what ever version of the M16 is being used. this goes for boots, clothing. backpacks, ect ect. From what Ive read you can walk into what ever camping store of your chosing and buy stuff a gunt would only dream about having issued to him. I hope Im wrong things may have changed sence Ive done my readings. I thought that it was standard to use steal jacketed AP rounds, sence WW2. Ive read afew accounts that soldiers where frustrated because AP rounds didnt drop an unarmored target properly. The round went right through. The battle of Mogaditue comes to mind. I would think for killing orcs the 5.56 would be to light any way. Orcs are tough. very tough LOTR orcs make D&D orcs look like kobolds. The orcs are also wearing armor. its not kevlar but plate chain and lick leather isnt tishue paiper. I admire the marines but when the orcs close into hand to hand its over.

[archon_huskie]

50 marines against how many orcs?

Orcs win. by sheer numbers the marines will grow fatigued eventually.

[SurlySeraph]

Ever heard of the Battle of Isandlwana? When spread over a wide area, even highly trained riflemen cannot keep up enough fire to stop large numbers of angry people armed with melee weapons. Even if the marines can carry enough ammo to kill all the orcs, they cannot deliver it in time. If they focus fire on a particular contingent of orcs, the others can flank them. If them form a reinforced square to avoid flanking and concentrate firepower, the mumakil will stomp all over them. There just aren't any tactics that can make up for the numbers here.

[....]

Marines fall back to Minas Tirith and spend the next few days picking off orcs?

[Cuddly]

Wasn't there a siege during one of the Crusades where a handful of Templar (like 6? 13?) held out for months versus a besieging army.

[Dervag]

what ever version of the M16 is being used.Arguably, the mere fact that they are using M-16s indicates that the US Marines don't have the best weapons money can buy. Many people believe that their money could buy a much better weapon than the M-16, although there is precious little agreement about what that weapon is.


I thought that it was standard to use steal jacketed AP rounds, sence WW2. Ive read afew accounts that soldiers where frustrated because AP rounds didnt drop an unarmored target properly. The round went right through.Many of the orcs are wearing iron armor. A bullet that fragments may simply fail to penetrate even on a direct hit to their center of mass. And hits to their limbs are unlikely to incapacitate them with one shot. Moreover, the M-16's wounding power against flesh greatly decreases once the round slows down a bit. After a few hundred meters, it becomes even less reliable as a one-shot killer than it is at point blank range. Which is, again, bad for these marines, because they really do need to kill a large percentage of the total enemy force at very long range (outside bow range, basically) if they want to demoralize the orcs enough to make them break and run away.

I suspect that for this mission, the marines would be better off carrying M-14s than M-16s. Ammo resupply is not a problem, and stopping power is.


Marines fall back to Minas Tirith and spend the next few days picking off orcs?I'm not at all sure they can kill enough orcs to keep the orcs from getting up to the walls. However, they can prevent any siege weapons from reaching the walls; their rocket launchers will take care of that.

The only question is whether the Nazgul will be able to interfere effectively. With only fifty defenders, taking out even a few from above would make a big difference.

[Swordguy]

Swordguy please correct me if im wrong.


MYTH The USMC or any other branch of the military do not have the very best ever mony can buy. Alot of there equipment is the best but not all. Im not just talking about GPC game boys that let generals micromanage at the squad level or what ever version of the M16 is being used. this goes for boots, clothing. backpacks, ect ect. From what Ive read you can walk into what ever camping store of your chosing and buy stuff a gunt would only dream about having issued to him. I hope Im wrong things may have changed sence Ive done my readings. I thought that it was standard to use steal jacketed AP rounds, sence WW2. Ive read afew accounts that soldiers where frustrated because AP rounds didnt drop an unarmored target properly. The round went right through. The battle of Mogaditue comes to mind. I would think for killing orcs the 5.56 would be to light any way. Orcs are tough. very tough LOTR orcs make D&D orcs look like kobolds. The orcs are also wearing armor. its not kevlar but plate chain and lick leather isnt tishue paiper. I admire the marines but when the orcs close into hand to hand its over.

... :smalleek:

Oh, that's what you meant.

Okay, the answer is no. The USMC tended to be on the lower end of the supply chain for a long time in the 80's and 90's. This has been somewhat rectified The real problem isn't the supply chain, it's crappy equipment all around thats 10 years out of date by the time it gets to the troops. As an example: campers and hikers had the equivalent of ALICE packs years before the troops did. Why this happens is due to politics and therefore not eligible for discussion on this thread, save for the fact that it's reprehensible.

As for penetrating power: the M855 (ball ammo) has plenty of penetration - unfortunately it has a tendency to over-penetrate and thus to less soft tissue damage. In essence, it's out of the body before it can spall. Now the hydrostatic shock can mess a person up, but it's not as much as it's made out to be - and really only matters in a lower torso hit (since the ribs tend to absorb some of same). If it doesn't over-penetrate, it fragments, which is good. Again unfortunately, the round has to be at the top of its velocity to fragment. This means that weapons without a long barrel (read: M4 carbine) can't accelerate the round to a fast enough speed to achieve fragmentation. An M16a4 can - but not past about 250 yards. All considered, M-14s would be more effective - though you then run into the problems of inaccuracy in rapid fire and more user fatigue (heavy weapon, lots of recoil).

Armor-piercing rounds aren't needed to breach armor under 300 yards, but if you feel they're necessary, there's the M995 - but it's a round that generally only used in the M249 SAW, due to pressure concerns. Really, though, it's overkill against these targets protection - and because it's moving so fast it'll overpenetrate as well.

Actually, in this case, the armor may hurt the Orcs. I imagine it'd slow the rounds down enough so that they have the time to do some decent damage inside the body. You'll also introduce the problem of armor spalling into the wearer.

The problem isn't the ammo being used. The problem is that the Marines can't fire fast enough to get all the Orcs before the Orcs get to them.

[Foeofthelance]

To sort of summarize for Swordguy without touching politics...

This is my rifle.
There are many like it.
And they were all made by the lowest bidder.

The problem with this situation is that there is a massive disparity between the forces. There are simply way too many orcs to be handled by a single platoon of anything. Armored units might stand a chance, at least until they get swarmed under. Given the numbers to put up a fair fight, or even decent artillery support, then its a no brainer.

Now of course the question isn't whether the Marines could hold or not. The question is how long would it take for the Orcs to dig them out if they went guerilla in the city?

[warty goblin]

To sort of summarize for Swordguy without touching politics...

This is my rifle.
There are many like it.
And they were all made by the lowest bidder.

The problem with this situation is that there is a massive disparity between the forces. There are simply way too many orcs to be handled by a single platoon of anything. Armored units might stand a chance, at least until they get swarmed under. Given the numbers to put up a fair fight, or even decent artillery support, then its a no brainer.

Now of course the question isn't whether the Marines could hold or not. The question is how long would it take for the Orcs to dig them out if they went guerilla in the city?

Probably not that long. Remember the orcs don't want to capture Minas Tirith, they want to reduce it to gravel. All they need to do is burn the city a ring at a time. The upper reaches, where the walls are smaller will be the hardest since the marine coverage is the thickest, but I figure they could mount siege engines on the lower walls and bombard the upper ring with flaming ammo.

[Swordguy]

To sort of summarize for Swordguy without touching politics...

This is my rifle.
There are many like it.
And they were all made by the lowest bidder.



Bwaha-ha-ha!

It's the dammed truth and you know it. I went through 11 extractor springs and two actual extractors in 2 months.

/+1, would read again.

[Irenaeus]

This is my rifle.
There are many like it.
And they were all made by the lowest bidder.
Ok, I laughed a little to loud there.

Many military weapons also suffer from too much use and far too little maintenance. I think most AK spinoffs are more suited as a rifleman's weapon than the guns of the AR-15 family since they are much more able to take the abuse they will invariably suffer.

I once had a squadmate who would routinely use the butt of his G3 to drive the pegs of our tent into the (frozen) ground. That can't be good for the poor thing.

[EvilElitest]

Probably not that long. Remember the orcs don't want to capture Minas Tirith, they want to reduce it to gravel. All they need to do is burn the city a ring at a time. The upper reaches, where the walls are smaller will be the hardest since the marine coverage is the thickest, but I figure they could mount siege engines on the lower walls and bombard the upper ring with flaming ammo.

but i guess they wouldn't mind taking it, remember Minas Morgul?
from,
EE

[GoC]

There are simply way too many orcs to be handled by a single platoon of anything.

A platoon of 20th level wizards backed by Silver age Superman.:smallamused:

Give me a tank as durable as the AK-47 and I'll wipe them ALL out. I love that 60km/h speed.:smallbiggrin:

[Mr._Blinky]

Okay, now I'm no great strategist/tactician, and I'm going to admit that my knowledge on current tech is kind of spotty (I've taken efforts to do research on both, due to the amount of SF I write), but I'm going to throw in my two cents here.

First, I think that as is, the marines are just plain screwed. They'll kill hundreds if not thousands of orcs, but eventually they'll be wiped out once even a few orcs get into range, especially if the orcs are smart and advance behind a shield wall. However, with a few changes to the situation, the marines might stand a chance of at least crippling the enemy, though still probably not winning.

First, they've got to be up on the walls. It's their only chance. On an open field, they'll just get surrounded and hacked to pieces. Up on the walls, they're far from the enemy's melee warriors until the towers go up.

Second, snipers are pretty much a must for the marines. While they're less useful than automatics against the horde of doom, they have A) Better range, both in terms of killing and accuracy, B) Better stopping power in general, and C) The ability to pick off key targets. While the Nazgul would worry me against the forces proposed, a few guys with .50 sniper rifles could probably blow the heads off of the flying beasts, which is really more dangerous in this situation than their morale issues, since it allows them to get at the soldiers. Also, make sure at least one of the snipers is a woman, to deal with the WK.

Second, they need full on machine guns, as in emplaced turrets. They'll have higher rate of fire, better ammo, and more stopping power. Sitting back on the walls with these will allow for them to wipe out far more orcs.

Third, if they successfully destroy the orc's siege weapons, they've effectively won. The orcs must break down either the gate or mount the walls in order to get within melee range, and to that they need their siege engines. If the SMAWs can destroy those quickly enough when they appear, they can sit back and pick off the orcs at leisure. Of course, even if they can take out the towers and ram, I'm not sure if they can hit the catapults at that range, which is actually potentially the most dangerous thing out there.

Fourth, mines. If the marines can mine the field, then they can take out a significant chunk of the orc force when they charge. It would also force the orcs to slow down and spread out, so as not to lose another large number in a second explosion.

Lastly, give the marines top-of-the-line weapons. M-16 is actually extremely old now, and their are far better weapons that the marines could be using. Same with body armor. On the other hand, I'm not sure what the body armor would do against and orc with a sword, and since the only ranged weapon is bows, I'm not sure how much improvement the armor needs. As I recall, modern weapon is rather poor and blocking close-combat weapons, since that's not what it's designed for.

Basically, the only hope the marines really have is to make sure that the orcs can't get to them in the first place, and so you use the SMAWs to kill the seige, and the snipers to kill the Nazgul and trolls. If they can do that, the machine guns can pick off the orcs at leisure.

[Dervag]

Actually, in this case, the armor may hurt the Orcs. I imagine it'd slow the rounds down enough so that they have the time to do some decent damage inside the body. You'll also introduce the problem of armor spalling into the wearer. OK. Granted. However, the armor will help somewhat at long range, which is where the Marines want to cause most of the casualties. Once the orcs are in bowshot, some of them may try to shoot back (and a few thousand arrows landing around their foxholes will definitely make things worse for them). And once they're in bowshot they will feel much more confident about taking the position in a melee charge.


The problem isn't the ammo being used. The problem is that the Marines can't fire fast enough to get all the Orcs before the Orcs get to them.Yeah. That was the gist of my analysis.


I once had a squadmate who would routinely use the butt of his G3 to drive the pegs of our tent into the (frozen) ground. That can't be good for the poor thing.There was a time when that was a smart move.

That was when rifles were intended to double as emergency polearm hafts in a pinch, weighed a few more pounds, and had a number of moving parts that could be hand counted by a blind butcher.