PDA

View Full Version : 3.x Vs 4E Tolkien Vs Holiwood+Anime



Smight
2007-12-18, 11:05 AM
Am I the only one that gets the feeling that more they turn away from Tolkien the more they dip into Holiwood and anime for inspiration, for example gravehound zombie in this article http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20071019a sems like it's more at kome chasing Mila Jovovich through corridors of Umbrela CO. and what is with "fey step" http://forums.gleemax.com/leaving.php?destination=http://dnd4.com/%3Fpage_id%3D41 if you get to bigger levels do you get BANKAI too :smallsmile: i seriusly got to wonder will warriors hair turn blond and spikey when he powers up.

Mr. Friendly
2007-12-18, 11:12 AM
Am I the only one that gets the feeling that more they turn away from Tolkien the more they dip into Holiwood and anime for inspiration, for example gravehound zombie in this article http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20071019a sems like it's more at kome chasing Mila Jovovich through corridors of Umbrela CO. and what is with "fey step" http://forums.gleemax.com/leaving.php?destination=http://dnd4.com/%3Fpage_id%3D41 if you get to bigger levels do you get BANKAI too :smallsmile: i seriusly got to wonder will warriors hair turn blond and spikey when he powers up.

Ah yes, Tolkien, the perfect D&D world. Where PCs are helpless, mewling babes, unable to defeat any foe except via DM fiat and having high-level NPCs/DMPCs save them. Wow. That sure is fun.

Crow
2007-12-18, 11:19 AM
Ah yes, Tolkien, the perfect D&D world. Where PCs are helpless, mewling babes, unable to defeat any foe except via DM fiat and having high-level NPCs/DMPCs save them. Wow. That sure is fun.

Those "NPCs/DMPCs" were actually the real PCs. It's all in how you look at it.

Valairn
2007-12-18, 11:23 AM
Methinks the verdict is out, good to wait to make decisions, when you actually see the mechanics.

Smight
2007-12-18, 11:31 AM
Ah yes, Tolkien, the perfect D&D world. Where PCs are helpless, mewling babes, unable to defeat any foe except via DM fiat and having high-level NPCs/DMPCs save them. Wow. That sure is fun.
And you managed to totaly misunderstood the post, what i ment was that it seems like they get inspiration for new feats more from modern movies and anime then from folclore and old fantasy , wich may lead to vampire being more similar to Blade movie then Stokers Dracula, but that could only be me.

Counterspin
2007-12-18, 11:32 AM
Can't people be bothered to come up with new things to troll the boards about? Seriously. Or at least come up with some reasonable examples?

Additionally, why does everyone think that when they yell "Videogame" and "Anime" we're all going to just nod agreeably? As long as the game is good I don't care. If you're that hugely concerned about these influences, just stick with third. Hopefully the people with good reasons to stick with it will let you into their games.

Once again, the video game and anime tropes are just intellectually lazy, so that you can be angry without having to say why. Why are zombie dogs bad for the game? They're a great example of "fast zombies." And how will short range teleport hurt my game?

SpikeFightwicky
2007-12-18, 11:34 AM
D&D should stay as far away from Holywood as possible, and vice versa. (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0190374/)

Mr. Friendly
2007-12-18, 11:39 AM
Those "NPCs/DMPCs" were actually the real PCs. It's all in how you look at it.

Really? So the LotR cycle had only two PCs? Gandalf and Golum?


And you managed to totaly misunderstood the post, what i ment was that it seems like they get inspiration for new feats more from modern movies and anime then from folclore and old fantasy , wich may lead to vampire being more similar to Blade movie then Stokers Dracula, but that could only be me.

So D&D, as a game, should remain static and unchanging, forever? Should all vampires be Strahd/Dracula? Should every Lich be Sauron? Every dragon Smaug? How many times can you recycle the same villain and plot over and over?

So instead of shambling zombies that are easily avoidable and escapable, there are fast moving zombie dogs now. Big deal. The medium of folklore changes over time. In ages past people sat around the campfire and recited the story of the Bogeyman who would sneak in and eat them. Now we have engineered plagues that make people become vampires and zombies.

New != bad
Change != bad

Neither one necessarily equals good either. However, when you recycle the same plot, villain and monsters for 30 years, sometimes you need to add a little spice.

kamikasei
2007-12-18, 11:46 AM
Those "NPCs/DMPCs" were actually the real PCs. It's all in how you look at it.

That's an argument I've not heard made before. The "PC-analogues" in LotR were Elrond, Galadriel, Gandalf, Denethor? Really? That doesn't sound much like any D&D game from any edition that wasn't a specialized setting designed for high-level political play, to me...

To the OP: the purpose of D&D is not to ever-more-faithfully reproduce the world of this or that classic novel. New books should present new options that are fun and interesting, and as popular culture and, yes, the fantasy genre move on, those options will derive from a widening pool of inspiration. The point that a given monster may be reworked to resemble a movie interpretation instead of the original myth is fair... but in equal fairness there are often multiple conflicting myths and most of them don't work well for a game creature. On the other hand, though I haven't read your link about Fey Step yet, I seriously doubt it's going to merit the bizarre DBZ-parody criticism you directed towards it.

The other complaint, given that you mentioned feats, I would surmise is that you fear 4th ed characters will "feel" more like a movie action hero or (shonen fighting) anime protagonist than an adventurer in a Tolkienesque medieval fantasy setting... which might be a justified concern, but options aren't bad to have, and unless it turns out that it's actually impossible to play a relatively mundane character and still remain effective then wanting to play a restricted subset of the "feel" available in the books remains a viable style.

Smight
2007-12-18, 11:53 AM
Once again, the video game and anime tropes are just intellectually lazy, so that you can be angry without having to say why. Why are zombie dogs bad for the game? They're a great example of "fast zombies." And how will short range teleport hurt my game?
Nothing is wrong with the idea they could just put little more efort into making them little more original, same thing could be made with zombie wolf, and "fay step" and "flash step" they coulda chnged a name bit more there is nothing more anoing then when players start discusing latest anime show douring session, and with things like that it's gona happen more often.

Valairn
2007-12-18, 11:59 AM
That's just pure silly prejudice. I'm done with this thread.

Indon
2007-12-18, 12:05 PM
Nothing is wrong with the idea they could just put little more efort into making them little more original, same thing could be made with zombie wolf, and "fay step" and "flash step" they coulda chnged a name bit more there is nothing more anoing then when players start discusing latest anime show douring session, and with things like that it's gona happen more often.

I'd rather have D&D monsters that model creatures you'd actually see in a D&D campaign, personally, rather than 'original' D&D creatures like the Tiger Shark.

As for ability names, what's wrong with those? A good ability name is at least somewhat flavorful or descriptive, and unique, and those aren't even very anime-inspired names.

"Seven leagues step", now that's an anime name. "Cherry Blossom Dragon Arc," that sort of thing. "Fey Step," just sounds a lot like things like "Dimension Door".

Smight
2007-12-18, 12:12 PM
That's just pure silly prejudice. I'm done with this thread.

No just expiriance, but I gues it larley depends on players around the table, you obviusly didn't have guy around your table who learned japanese for soule purpose of watching anime RAW.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-12-18, 12:13 PM
D&D is getting more like anime? That's ridiculous.

*looks at sig*

Um...

Attilargh
2007-12-18, 12:14 PM
"Seven leagues step", now that's an anime name.
A what (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_league_boots) now? :smallconfused:

(Also, who the hell would want to place his feet seven leagues apart?)

Mewtarthio
2007-12-18, 12:16 PM
Bah. I refuse to believe 4e is suffering undue anime influence until character sheets are printed with the line "Gender (Male / Female / Damned if I can figure it out (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Kino_no_Tabi_eyecatch.jpg))."

Thinker
2007-12-18, 12:21 PM
So what if the designers are gaining inspiration from anime? They'd be stupid not to. If anyone restricts their inspiration simply because of the medium and not because of the story (s)he is being short-sighted and stupid. I could see a case for limiting inspiration based on genre, but video games and anime have genres within themselves. If you want a medieval feel draw from medieval concepts, but even restricting culture is ridiculous. You could reflavor and get ideas from anything. The idea of the samurai being loyal to a lord and using an ancestral weapon could be applied fairly easily to a germanic story as well. Quit bitching about source material and reflavor things as you wish. Its not about what matches your specific idea, but what is the best fit for the most people.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-12-18, 12:22 PM
No just expiriance, but I gues it larley depends on players around the table, you obviusly didn't have guy around your table who learned japanese for soule purpose of watching anime RAW.
That's silly.

I (tried to) learn Japanese for the sole purpose of playing imported video games. I failed at that, mostly because the games I'm importing are all text-heavy, and how the hell does anyone memorize kanji? How? They're all just blobs to me.

EvilElitest
2007-12-18, 12:25 PM
Ah yes, Tolkien, the perfect D&D world. Where PCs are helpless, mewling babes, unable to defeat any foe except via DM fiat and having high-level NPCs/DMPCs save them. Wow. That sure is fun.

Do you run champaigns like the DM of the Rings. If not then i just can't understand your complaints.



Really? So the LotR cycle had only two PCs? Gandalf and Golum?
I'm sorry, i really don't care about this thread, but this just goes into the very deepest depth of BS
1. He said Tolkien based, not the book itself.
2. Hate to break it to you, LOTRS is a book, not a game. A game based after the book, unless run by a totally usless Dm wouldn't be done that way, which by the way can be done with any champaign.



Quote:
Originally Posted by That other guy
And you managed to totaly misunderstood the post, what i ment was that it seems like they get inspiration for new feats more from modern movies and anime then from folclore and old fantasy , wich may lead to vampire being more similar to Blade movie then Stokers Dracula, but that could only be me.
So D&D, as a game, should remain static and unchanging, forever? Should all vampires be Strahd/Dracula? Should every Lich be Sauron? Every dragon Smaug? How many times can you recycle the same villain and plot over and over?
Personally, i don't mind the new as long as they keep the old, not replace it (excluding things that are broken then become fixed)


So instead of shambling zombies that are easily avoidable and escapable, there are fast moving zombie dogs now.
both, ain't worth whining about.

Big deal. The medium of folklore changes over time. In ages past people sat around the campfire and recited the story of the Bogeyman who would sneak in and eat them. Now we have engineered plagues that make people become vampires and zombies.

what ever floats your boat

from,
EE

Valairn
2007-12-18, 12:30 PM
I have learned key phrases in Japanese and done a little reading up on their lexicon so I can better enjoy anime. You'd be surprised what understanding the native language can do for improving a plot line, that otherwise ports crappily to English.

Of course you seem to have some grudge against people that do that, so like I said I have nothing particularly useful to add to this post that will matter to you.

Artanis
2007-12-18, 12:33 PM
That's silly.

I (tried to) learn Japanese for the sole purpose of playing imported video games. I failed at that, mostly because the games I'm importing are all text-heavy, and how the hell does anyone memorize kanji? How? They're all just blobs to me.
Don't they have like, four alphabets or something? :smalleek:

hamstard4ever
2007-12-18, 12:38 PM
No just expiriance,

You've had less than satisfactory experiences and you choose to project that dissatisfaction onto everything that has even a tenuous connection to your bad experience. That is prejudice.

Indon
2007-12-18, 12:39 PM
That's silly.

I (tried to) learn Japanese for the sole purpose of playing imported video games. I failed at that, mostly because the games I'm importing are all text-heavy, and how the hell does anyone memorize kanji? How? They're all just blobs to me.

Kanji and other pictographic languages are pretty hard to learn; from my little interaction with the concept, individual lines can be like syllables, and more complex structures can be like highly abstract pictures, and many word meanings can be gleaned from a combination of those two influences.

There's a reason professional translators have had a history of screwing up Japanese to English translations (and it isn't _all_ gross incompetence, either).

As for the names I'd made up, I just made up stuff that I could feasibly see in my Exalted game. Granted, the league is a western measurement, but still.

Tengu
2007-12-18, 12:39 PM
Will there be characters with hidden portals in their foreheads from which robots sprout constantly? No.
Will there be doofus gunmen walking around, refusing to kill anyone and fighting for LOVE AND PEACE? Probably not.
Will the setting be a futuristic, cyberpunk world where almost everyone has at least a direct neural connection to the net, if not a completely robotic body? I bet not.
No bounty hunters and jazz and blues music in space too, I bet.
Will there be time travelers, aliens and espers? Hmm, maybe the last ones.

Who said that DND is becoming more anime-like? :smallwink:

Attilargh
2007-12-18, 12:46 PM
Will there be doofus gunmen walking around, refusing to kill anyone and fighting for LOVE AND PEACE? Probably not.
Clearly you've never played Iron Kingdoms with Book of Exalted Deeds. :smallwink: (Come to think of it, that'd probably be pretty damn awesome.)

Also, D&D characters' level is rarely over nine thousaaaaaand!

Tengu
2007-12-18, 12:47 PM
See? DND is already so anime-like it's hard to become more.

And yes, awesome idea.

Leicontis
2007-12-18, 12:48 PM
Am I the only one that gets the feeling that more they turn away from Tolkien the more they dip into Holiwood and anime for inspiration, for example gravehound zombie in this article http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20071019a sems like it's more at kome chasing Mila Jovovich through corridors of Umbrela CO. and what is with "fey step" http://forums.gleemax.com/leaving.php?destination=http://dnd4.com/%3Fpage_id%3D41 if you get to bigger levels do you get BANKAI too :smallsmile: i seriusly got to wonder will warriors hair turn blond and spikey when he powers up.
How do I make the second link work? It just takes me to a page of images.

I have no problem with D&D drawing inspiration from things other than Tolkien. Let's face it - there are a lot of people out there that want to play characters based on a movie, anime, video game, book, etc. Why not make it easier for people to build more varied characters? As long as people aren't straitjacketed into playing anime-esque or hollywood-esque or Tolkien-esque characters, but are able to play any of the above (or none of the above) effectively, it's a good thing to draw inspiration from a wider pool of sources.

AKA_Bait
2007-12-18, 12:48 PM
Will there be time travelers, aliens and espers? Hmm, maybe the last ones.


We already have those. They are called Mind Flayers. On that note...

3.x is too anime! Tentacled psionic powered aliens from the future are so not D&D! [/sarcastic]

Morty
2007-12-18, 12:51 PM
It's actually quite amazing how people can draw conclusions from buch of marketing material.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-12-18, 12:51 PM
Don't they have like, four alphabets or something? :smalleek:
Three alphabets, two phonetic, one pictographic. The pictographic one (kanji) is the hardest, for all the reasons Indon said, and yet is the most commonly used. Probably because there are so many homophones in Japanese that you can't just spell things out phonetically.

I can understand formal, spoken Japanese after a couple of passes, though (the only reason I like Moe chicks in anime: they use diction that I can follow because it's what they teach in school).

Smight
2007-12-18, 12:53 PM
How do I make the second link work? It just takes me to a page of images.

.

go to facts/rumors , link is in uper part pf the page with pictures

AKA_Bait
2007-12-18, 12:57 PM
It's actually quite amazing how people can draw conclusions from buch of marketing material.

Yeah. Impressive really. People can go from 0 to "I love/hate it" without ever actually seeing the final product.

Of course, if we didn't do that, what would we have to talk about on these boards anyway?

Nerd-o-rama
2007-12-18, 12:58 PM
Non-troll topics of some sort?

Valairn
2007-12-18, 12:59 PM
We could talk about making more homebrew :-D. HOMEBREW YEAHH!!!!!!!

kamikasei
2007-12-18, 12:59 PM
No just expiriance, but I gues it larley depends on players around the table, you obviusly didn't have guy around your table who learned japanese for soule purpose of watching anime RAW.

Clearly this person was a blight upon the earth and should be ostracized. Like a guy who would learn French because he likes French cinema, though he doesn't intend to ever move to France. Obscenity!

In other points:

I don't actually see anything about Fey Step at that link you posted. Could you elaborate? Without reference to Bleach?

edit: Okay. Dude. One, direct link (http://dnd4.com/?page_id=33#6). It's only polite not to make your audience do the legwork. Two,

# Eladrin (Have a short teleport ability called “fey step”)...this is your complaint? That sounds very appropriately fey. Possibly a bit over-the-top for first level, if that's when it's found, but that will depend on its limitations.


Nothing is wrong with the idea they could just put little more efort into making them little more original, same thing could be made with zombie wolf, and "fay step" and "flash step" they coulda chnged a name bit more there is nothing more anoing then when players start discusing latest anime show douring session, and with things like that it's gona happen more often.

Seriously, what? I mean, is there a particular anime where a particular character has an ability called "Fey Step"? Would the utterance of such a phrase at your gaming table instantly spark off a discussion of the latest Naruto vs Ichigo vs Spike vs Chiyo-chan battle royale? I don't get where you're making the connection between distracted/unfocused players and a couple of very generic-sounding ability names, which I still haven't seen the source for...

Oh, and: zombie dogs rather than zombie wolves because it fits the idea of turning normal, harmless things undead and monstrous.

Moofaa
2007-12-18, 01:00 PM
I think some people worry too much about what some company puts in the books.

If you want classic zombies in your world and not new fast-running zombie dogs then fine.

After years of DMing I am suprised anyone actually doesn't homebrew practically every aspect of their worlds. Myself even my fantasy games only utilize basic d20 rules. Stuff like magic, races, and classes are typically changed into whatever I think fits my theme.

But everyone has their own style.

Mewtarthio
2007-12-18, 01:00 PM
We could talk about making more homebrew :-D. HOMEBREW YEAHH!!!!!!!

Anime homebrew or Hollywood homebrew?

AKA_Bait
2007-12-18, 01:02 PM
Non-troll topics of some sort?

Madness! You'll destroy us all!

Morty
2007-12-18, 01:03 PM
Non-troll topics of some sort?

Where's the fun in that?

kamikasei
2007-12-18, 01:11 PM
We already have those. They are called Mind Flayers. On that note...

They're not supposed to be time-travelling, alien epsers all at once. I doubt you realise the horror you've perpetrated on my mental-image-faculty.

Attilargh
2007-12-18, 01:25 PM
That reminds me:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/cit_haruhi_suzumiya_super_smiley_nagato_photoshop. jpg

Also, my love for the Expanded Psionics Handbook has reached new levels. I just realized it can be used to portray any mix of aliens, espers and time-travelers one could ever want. (Well, almost. If you need more, break out Lords of Madness.)

EvilJames
2007-12-18, 01:27 PM
Ah yes, Tolkien, the perfect D&D world. Where PCs are helpless, mewling babes, unable to defeat any foe except via DM fiat and having high-level NPCs/DMPCs save them. Wow. That sure is fun.

:smallconfused: what game were you playing? Your DM must have been pretty terrible if thats what you think of it.


Really? So the LotR cycle had only two PCs? Gandalf and Golum?



Huh? No the closest to PC's in the books were the others of the fellowship. Regardless the importance of Gandalf and Gollum to the original story have little effect on the setting when/if you are using it for a setting.

that being said I have little problem with them making new monsters for the new d20 game. If they have movie or anime influences then so be it (people would and have homebrew versions of there own anyway, they are merely saving them the effort) I may even engineer a few I like into my 2nd ed Ad&d game.

Mr. Friendly
2007-12-18, 01:37 PM
:smallconfused: what game were you playing? Your DM must have been pretty terrible if thats what you think of it.

Um, are you serious? Have you read/watched Lord of the Rings? If that were a D&D campaign it would suck. Come to think of it, I have played in plenty of Forgotten Realms games where everything of importance had to be done by Elminster/Blackstaff AKA Gandalf.

How about the final battle? The chance for characters to actual fight stuff? Oh no, sorry, Nazguls are immune to everything. Only this female NPC can do anything about it.

What about poor Frodo? After being railroaded along the whole path, he doesn't even get to actually destroy the ring.

They were good books; ok movies; they are ok to draw *some* inspiration from for D&D. However you cannot simply arbitrarily cast Time Stop on the world of fantasy simply because you think Tolkien was the best thing ever. There is newer, fresher fantasy that has come out since then.

EvilJames
2007-12-18, 01:47 PM
oops I edited my post (I didn't change my original statement but I did add a bit)

My statement there stands "The books are not a D&D campaign. The story has no effect on using the books as a setting, nor as a source material. So yes I am quite serious. If you are playing in a Tolkien esq world and you're having that kind of trouble it's your DM's fault not the source material


Come to think of it, I have played in plenty of Forgotten Realms games where everything of importance had to be done by Elminster/Blackstaff AKA Gandalf.
then you are still going to have this trouble in the new game my friend you may want to consider a new DM: smallyuk: All the source material in the different games in the world won't save you from that.

Mr. Friendly
2007-12-18, 01:58 PM
oops I edited my post (I didn't change my original statement but I did add a bit)

My statement there stands "The books are not a D&D campaign. The story has no effect on using the books as a setting, nor as a source material. So yes I am quite serious. If you are playing in a Tolkien esq world and you're having that kind of trouble it's your DM's fault not the source material


then you are still going to have this trouble in the new game my friend you may want to consider a new DM: smallyuk: All the source material in the different games in the world won't save you from that.

Um, did you read my post and what I was replying to?

The OP makes it sound like Tolkien is the greates thing since sliced Kobolds, I was pointing out that, if LotR WERE a D&D campiagn, it would suck since you would be constantly railroaded and never able to actually acomplish anything. Every major NPC does everything for you.

You obviously missed the entire point of my post.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-12-18, 01:58 PM
Would the utterance of such a phrase at your gaming table instantly spark off a discussion of the latest Naruto vs Ichigo vs Spike vs Chiyo-chan battle royale?
Chiyo-chan.

AKA_Bait
2007-12-18, 02:00 PM
Um, are you serious? Have you read/watched Lord of the Rings? If that were a D&D campaign it would suck. Come to think of it, I have played in plenty of Forgotten Realms games where everything of importance had to be done by Elminster/Blackstaff AKA Gandalf.

Sure. And that's bad DMing. An uncreative DMPC using DM will ruin a game in any system. Remember here, we are not talking about the plot of the lord of the rings for a campagin (which wouldn't be a good game but then it's not designed to be) but the setting of Middle Earth. You know, with elves and dwarves and orcs and wizards and the like. You know, the broad brushstrokes forefather of all modern fantasy.


They were good books; ok movies; they are ok to draw *some* inspiration from for D&D. However you cannot simply arbitrarily cast Time Stop on the world of fantasy simply because you think Tolkien was the best thing ever.

Since when has D&D ever done that or have people argued for that? No one is starting the anti-beholder league because they don't appear in Tolkien. What some people are concerned with is that feel of 4e won't be conducive to the Middle Earth type of setting they enjoy. That's a reasonable concern, although not cause to start going nuts and ranting. At least not yet.


There is newer, fresher fantasy that has come out since then.

This is just a matter of personal taste. Therefore, I can say with absolute conviction that you are wrong. :smalltongue:

kamikasei
2007-12-18, 02:04 PM
Huh? No the closest to PC's in the books were the others of the fellowship. Regardless the importance of Gandalf and Gollum to the original story have little effect on the setting when/if you are using it for a setting.

I probably shouldn't get in to the middle of this, but a few people have made this mistake now. Mr. Friendly was responding to:



Ah yes, Tolkien, the perfect D&D world. Where PCs are helpless, mewling babes, unable to defeat any foe except via DM fiat and having high-level NPCs/DMPCs save them. Wow. That sure is fun.
Those "NPCs/DMPCs" were actually the real PCs. It's all in how you look at it.

Possibly Crow misread his intent as saying that the hobbits were the mewling babes and Aragorn, Legolas etc. the true PCs. But seriously, dudes, stop talking past each other.

EvilJames
2007-12-18, 02:08 PM
Um, did you read my post and what I was replying to?

The OP makes it sound like Tolkien is the greates thing since sliced Kobolds, I was pointing out that, if LotR WERE a D&D campiagn, it would suck since you would be constantly railroaded and never able to actually acomplish anything. Every major NPC does everything for you.

You obviously missed the entire point of my post.

Actually I think you missed my point. I was saying that if you are being railroaded then that the doing of your DM not the setting you are playing in

You also missed the OP's point that being that he doesn't care for the supposed influences of the new game, and not that a DM should run a game like Tolkien wrote his books (you shouldn't be running any game like any book honestly. Fiction in literature and roleplaying follow vastly different narrative paths and styles, there is a reason that the characters in the D&D novels do vastly different things than most players would in their shoes)

Mr. Friendly
2007-12-18, 02:12 PM
Actually I think you missed my point. I was saying that if you are being railroaded then that the doing of your DM not the setting you are playing in

You also missed the OP's point that being that he doesn't care for the supposed influences of the new game, and not that a DM should run a game like Tolkien wrote his books (you shouldn't be running any game like any book honestly. Fiction in literature and roleplaying follow vastly different narrative paths and styles, there is a reason that the characters in the D&D novels do vastly different things than most players would in their shoes)

*smacks head against wall repeatedly*

EvilJames
2007-12-18, 02:25 PM
*smacks head against wall repeatedly*

*helps*

I'm not sure what your trying to say here now. Yes I read your post and yes I read the OP's post. I disagree with your summation of what his post means, I'm not sure whats so hard to understand about that.

He never said that Tolkien was the greatest thing since "sliced Kobolds" or even implied it. He did state that he likes it better than the newer influences and that is his opinion and he is entitled to it. You are the one who said that that means railroading players, and I disagree with your statement. If I am missing some subtle hidden point then please elaborate.

Smight
2007-12-18, 02:32 PM
Um, did you read my post and what I was replying to?

The OP makes it sound like Tolkien is the greates thing since sliced Kobolds, I was pointing out that, if LotR WERE a D&D campiagn, it would suck since you would be constantly railroaded and never able to actually acomplish anything. Every major NPC does everything for you.

You obviously missed the entire point of my post.

And where does exactly OP makes that bold statement?

psychoticbarber
2007-12-18, 02:43 PM
Um, did you read my post and what I was replying to?

The OP makes it sound like Tolkien is the greates thing since sliced Kobolds, I was pointing out that, if LotR WERE a D&D campiagn, it would suck since you would be constantly railroaded and never able to actually acomplish anything. Every major NPC does everything for you.

You obviously missed the entire point of my post.

I entirely agree, that if the PLOT of the LOtR was played out in D&D, it would be extremely sucky.

but,


Actually I think you missed my point. I was saying that if you are being railroaded then that the doing of your DM not the setting you are playing in

and


Sure. And that's bad DMing. An uncreative DMPC using DM will ruin a game in any system. Remember here, we are not talking about the plot of the lord of the rings for a campagin (which wouldn't be a good game but then it's not designed to be) but the setting of Middle Earth. You know, with elves and dwarves and orcs and wizards and the like. You know, the broad brushstrokes forefather of all modern fantasy.

sum up my opinion quite nicely. I wouldn't want to run the LotR in my game, but I am actually actively working towards making my personal campaign setting more like the vast reaches of Middle Earth, complete with a high-magic past and a low magic present (Shameless Plug!) (http://cityofkayru.blogspot.com/).

I believe that the OP was attempting to say that he prefers low-magic, Tolkien-esque settings to what he considers to be anime-inspired, high-powered settings.

It's a perfectly reasonable position to hold.

Mr. Friendly
2007-12-18, 02:44 PM
*helps*

I'm not sure what your trying to say here now. Yes I read your post and yes I read the OP's post. I disagree with your summation of what his post means, I'm not sure whats so hard to understand about that.

*to self*Ok... deep breaths... stay calm, stay calm.....**

Post 1: Am I the only one that gets the feeling that more they turn away from Tolkien the more they dip into Holiwood and anime for inspiration, for example gravehound zombie in this article http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20071019a sems like it's more at kome chasing Mila Jovovich through corridors of Umbrela CO. and what is with "fey step" http://forums.gleemax.com/leaving.ph...3Fpage_id%3D41 if you get to bigger levels do you get BANKAI too i seriusly got to wonder will warriors hair turn blond and spikey when he powers up.

Emphasis mine. The OP has set the tone for this thread. If you fail to stick to Tolkien, you get undead dogs and DBZ.

My reply (post #2): Ah yes, Tolkien, the perfect D&D world. Where PCs are helpless, mewling babes, unable to defeat any foe except via DM fiat and having high-level NPCs/DMPCs save them. Wow. That sure is fun. Sarcastic, yes. I did not explicitly label who was a PC and who an NPC, though seeing the thread degenertation because I didn't, I suppose I should clarify now: For the record I meant Frodo, Sam, Merry, Pippen, Legolas, Aragorn, Gimley and I guess Boromir. They were the obvious PCs, though a case could be made that Sam was Frodo's cohort, at any rate, Gandalf fits the very definition of the ambiguous and mysterious NPC Wizard.

Since the subtlety is obviously lost on most of the readers of this thread, I was saying that IF Tolkien were D&D, it would suck. Which frankly, in the ancient days of Gygax, it did suck, a lot, since you were railroaded in exactly the same ways as Tolkien.

Mewtarthio
2007-12-18, 02:47 PM
This topic has become so confusing and incomprehensible that I'm fairly certain nobody really know what they're saying.


This is just a matter of personal taste. Therefore, I can say with absolute conviction that you are wrong. :smalltongue:

I disagree. I think that the more recent fantasy settings are newer than LotR.

EvilJames
2007-12-18, 02:48 PM
Actually on second thought maybe it's me who is being vague (If so I apologize) I'll try and word this differently.

My point is that regardless of how Tolkien treats his characters (and admittedly he does treat them fairly shabbily but then he's not a DM, but an author, but I digress) It has no effect on the playability of the world as a setting. Just because the characters in the book don't have a choice does not mean that your players can't have a choice. You gave examples of how such railroading has happened to you. I'm just saying that that doesn't have anything to do with what the Op is talking about.


*to self*Ok... deep breaths... stay calm, stay calm.....**

Post 1: Am I the only one that gets the feeling that more they turn away from Tolkien the more they dip into Holiwood and anime for inspiration, for example gravehound zombie in this article http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20071019a sems like it's more at kome chasing Mila Jovovich through corridors of Umbrela CO. and what is with "fey step" http://forums.gleemax.com/leaving.ph...3Fpage_id%3D41 if you get to bigger levels do you get BANKAI too i seriusly got to wonder will warriors hair turn blond and spikey when he powers up.

Emphasis mine. The OP has set the tone for this thread. If you fail to stick to Tolkien, you get undead dogs and DBZ.

My reply (post #2): Ah yes, Tolkien, the perfect D&D world. Where PCs are helpless, mewling babes, unable to defeat any foe except via DM fiat and having high-level NPCs/DMPCs save them. Wow. That sure is fun. Sarcastic, yes. I did not explicitly label who was a PC and who an NPC, though seeing the thread degenertation because I didn't, I suppose I should clarify now: For the record I meant Frodo, Sam, Merry, Pippen, Legolas, Aragorn, Gimley and I guess Boromir. They were the obvious PCs, though a case could be made that Sam was Frodo's cohort, at any rate, Gandalf fits the very definition of the ambiguous and mysterious NPC Wizard.

Since the subtlety is obviously lost on most of the readers of this thread, I was saying that IF Tolkien were D&D, it would suck. Which frankly, in the ancient days of Gygax, it did suck, a lot, since you were railroaded in exactly the same ways as Tolkien.

your apparent level of upset is odd but oh well I'm not disagreeing with your statement of "if" or who the pc's were (the cohort idea for Sam is something I hadn't thought about though) I'm disagreeing with it's relevency to the Op's opinion. He said that "it seems like" not that we explicitly get DBZ (god I hope not) and as has been stated before he just doesn't like the direction it's going not the fact that it has a direction.

Xuincherguixe
2007-12-18, 02:48 PM
I'd like someone to explain why drawing inspiration from Anime is such a bad thing. I would propose the same about Hollywood, but I'm not convinced that there's any inspiration to be taken :P

Cynicism aside, every so often there's some good stuff from out of Hollywood. And just because the inspiration for something was stupid doesn't mean you can't make something awesome out of it. I could cite examples, but it would be my own personal taste.

Seriously, there is next to nothing that's completely original. Almost all fiction is based on taking aspects of various other things and combining them. Sometimes this works well, sometimes it doesn't. I don't actually like a lot of D&D, but I bet that I could still turn it into something interesting.

With or without Anime/Hollywood inspirations.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-12-18, 02:50 PM
This topic has become so confusing and incomprehensible that I'm fairly certain nobody really know what they're saying.
Become? The OP was barely legible.

And no, I don't know what I'm talking about. Although now I'm starting to think of what class fits Yuki Nagato (Wizard, probably. This would be easier in Mutants & Masterminds, but that would defeat the point of my sarcasm. The really hard part is an accurate race, although a reinterpretation of Kalashtar could come close. Wait. Kalashtar Psion...Shaper or Egoist, maybe kineticist.)

Callos_DeTerran
2007-12-18, 02:55 PM
Emphasis mine. The OP has set the tone for this thread. If you fail to stick to Tolkien, you get undead dogs and DBZ.

Aye, the OP sets that as the tone for the entire thread with that, not to mention a, at least, mild dislike for such a change.

Personally I could care less if it dips more into Hollywood and anime then sticking to Tolkien. It's all well and good to prefer that sort of setting, but I'd go nuts if I was forced to play it. It's simply not exciting enough for me.

I admit though thats probably one of the only things about the new edition that peaks my interest. If balance is restored, stream-lined and exciting combat kept or improved upon, and the fluff is decent then I couldn't give a damn where they get their inspiration from. It could come from the Teletubbies as long as it was fun to play.

psychoticbarber
2007-12-18, 02:57 PM
I'd like someone to explain why drawing inspiration from Anime is such a bad thing. I would propose the same about Hollywood, but I'm not convinced that there's any inspiration to be taken :P

I'm not anti-anime inspiration at all, just to be clear. I happen to be moving away from the anime with my current setting, but I enjoy ridiculously high-powered combat as well. I was going to run a Naruto game awhile back, but there wasn't enough real interest at the time.

It all depends on how I feel, and what kind of feelings I want the setting to evoke. I was slightly tired of D&D's ease-of-magic when I started creating this setting, so magic in my setting is difficult and dangerous, and steel is just as likely to win the day. I'm not playing in d20 for this system, so I strongly suggest that magic-users give themselves other options, because it won't always work.

In this particular case, anime inspiration doesn't work (at least, not the animes I'm familiar with). I'll probably get around to a point where I want ridiculous high-powered combat again, and the anime inspiration will come back. I would argue that refusing inspiration because of the source is just a way to limit yourself and stay with what you know. Which works for some people, and if you're one of those people, I'm not knockin' that either.

Tengu
2007-12-18, 02:58 PM
That reminds me:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/cit_haruhi_suzumiya_super_smiley_nagato_photoshop. jpg


Aaah, that's disturbing! Can I manage to quote without looking at it too much?

Apparently I did, because I am still posting. What's that picture from? Made by fans?

On a slightly more serious and general note, DND is slowly becoming a modern RPG, where people can do a lot of stuff other than "I attack the monster" or describe a long and flavorful action that's just "I attack the monster" mechanically. And most people associate such stunts with anime because they don't aren't familiar with other sources where people who aren't wizards do crazy stuff (Celtic myths, anyone?).

Nerd-o-rama
2007-12-18, 03:02 PM
That image is actually from season 2. I'm lying through my teeth, but we will see Nagato with actual facial expressions, I'm sure.

The image source is TVTropes, and I've seen it there before, but I have no idea where it comes from originally. I'm going to guess "my darkest nightmares".

Also, you had to repost it at the top of the page, didn't you? I might have trouble taking this topic seriously now.

Mewtarthio
2007-12-18, 03:03 PM
I can't see that image.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-12-18, 03:04 PM
Don't complain.

kamikasei
2007-12-18, 03:05 PM
And no, I don't know what I'm talking about. Although now I'm starting to think of what class fits Yuki Nagato (Wizard, probably.

She's clearly a 4ed Truenamer.

Hey, OP! Could you explain why the thread subject conflates Hollywood and Anime? Set up as an opposition to Tolkien that just sounds like "old fantasy novels vs. more recent fantasy of anything other than novel format".


The image source is TVTropes, and I've seen it there before, but I have no idea where it comes from originally. I'm going to guess "my darkest nightmares".

It's a photoshop job, according to the filename.

And if you think that's bad, check out the pic (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/blacklagoon.jpg) for Black Lagoon (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlackLagoon) there.

Tengu
2007-12-18, 03:10 PM
That image is actually from season 2. I'm lying through my teeth, but we will see Nagato with actual facial expressions, I'm sure.


Oh no, just as a feared. And here I hoped that Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuutsu is not like Eva or FLCL and you can watch it without rolling for sanity loss...

*rubs hands together in anticipation*

Smight
2007-12-18, 03:11 PM
*to self*Ok... deep breaths... stay calm, stay calm.....**

Post 1: Am I the only one that gets the feeling that more they turn away from Tolkien the more they dip into Holiwood and anime for inspiration, for example gravehound zombie in this article http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20071019a sems like it's more at kome chasing Mila Jovovich through corridors of Umbrela CO. and what is with "fey step" http://forums.gleemax.com/leaving.ph...3Fpage_id%3D41 if you get to bigger levels do you get BANKAI too i seriusly got to wonder will warriors hair turn blond and spikey when he powers up.

Emphasis mine. The OP has set the tone for this thread. If you fail to stick to Tolkien, you get undead dogs and DBZ.

My reply (post #2): Ah yes, Tolkien, the perfect D&D world. Where PCs are helpless, mewling babes, unable to defeat any foe except via DM fiat and having high-level NPCs/DMPCs save them. Wow. That sure is fun. Sarcastic, yes. I did not explicitly label who was a PC and who an NPC, though seeing the thread degenertation because I didn't, I suppose I should clarify now: For the record I meant Frodo, Sam, Merry, Pippen, Legolas, Aragorn, Gimley and I guess Boromir. They were the obvious PCs, though a case could be made that Sam was Frodo's cohort, at any rate, Gandalf fits the very definition of the ambiguous and mysterious NPC Wizard.

Since the subtlety is obviously lost on most of the readers of this thread, I was saying that IF Tolkien were D&D, it would suck. Which frankly, in the ancient days of Gygax, it did suck, a lot, since you were railroaded in exactly the same ways as Tolkien.

yes and empasis in that post was in the other part of the post referencig holivud and anime, Tolkien was mear example for oposit part of the spectrum whit folclore and the rest of old fantasy stuff, wich more or less most of the other posters seem to get, and you seem to be only one focused on Tolkien being the center of the post, all of witch I already explained to you in my second post so try reading all posts before geting your panties it a twist.

AKA_Bait
2007-12-18, 03:14 PM
Emphasis mine. The OP has set the tone for this thread. If you fail to stick to Tolkien, you get undead dogs and DBZ.
Emphasis on emphasis mine mine.


And where does exactly OP makes that bold statement?

I think it's appropriate at this juncture to point out that That_other_guy is the person who wrote the original post. He does not seem to agree with the literal bent this thread has derailed onto. I have the sneaking suspicion when he referred to Tolkien he was using in a manner to indicate the kind of feel he wanted his universe to have, not to the plot of The Lord of the Rings as a campaign setting particularly. Tolkien get's picked for this because he basically started the genre and many later authors are writing in the same tradition that he did. Would it be better if we referred to it as a more Terry Brooks or David Eddings setting instead?

Edit: Seems, reading above, I was right.


Since the subtlety is obviously lost on most of the readers of this thread, I was saying that IF Tolkien were D&D, it would suck. Which frankly, in the ancient days of Gygax, it did suck, a lot, since you were railroaded in exactly the same ways as Tolkien.

Oh dear, I can hear the rumble of the approaching 1ed and 2ed hordes ...



I disagree. I think that the more recent fantasy settings are newer than LotR.

Yes but he used 'and' a logical conjunction for "new and fresher". That means that even if one side of the conjunct is true (newer) the other side must be also for the argument to stand. Much modern fantasy is directly derivative and lacks the detail and imagination of Tolkien, hence it is not fresher.

[/end pointless logical defense of silly joke comment]


It's all well and good to prefer that sort of setting, but I'd go nuts if I was forced to play it. It's simply not exciting enough for me.


The reverse of this fear is exactly what bothers those who want that kind of setting. Some folks are afraid that the 4e mechanics and default setting will hem them into playing a setting that they will not enjoy, just as you would be bored if forced to play theirs.

This is a semi-silly fear. The simple fact is that 4e will probably eat 3.5 over time. Obviously, all of your books etc are not going to catch fire in June but slowly players may convert systems leaving you with no one to play with under the old rules. Many a 2ed proponent has seen this happen. If the 4e mechanics do not reasonably allow for a low powered setting then those who like that setting have a somewhat reasonable concern that they will be, practically speaking, boxed into a setting they will not enjoy.


I'd like someone to explain why drawing inspiration from Anime is such a bad thing.

*snip*

I could cite examples, but it would be my own personal taste.


In the end, that's really all it is. Some folks want a lower powered setting some want a high flying setting. Mechanics, particularly the ones that go into class balance, influence the possible fluff you can use in your own game. If the only way for a fighter to compete is by running up walls and making 37 attacks a round* then the mechanics really just won't work for a lower powered setting. Some fear this about 4e.

In the end, it's all about personal taste. I, for one, prefer that my setting be less flashy and high flying but that doesn't make it inherently better or worse. It's just what I like.

*This is just a random example. It is not a claim about what the 4e mechanics actually will be. We won't know that until we see them in June and whatever we say up until then is really just speculation over calculated marketing releases.

Serenity
2007-12-18, 03:21 PM
Tome of Battle, the most often touted 'anime' supplement does a very good job at boosting a fighter-types effectiveness to much more useful levels.It doesn't involve anything like 'running up walls' or 'hitting things 37 times'...

Indon
2007-12-18, 03:22 PM
Emphasis on emphasis mine mine.

Emphasis on 'emphasis mine' in metaemphasis mine.

I think I know what the 'hollywood/anime' feel is. It's when your Fighter character, in the trenches, doesn't cover the grenade with his body, but instead grabs the grenade and throws it back, or lets it explode and dodges the shrapnel. It's when your Wizard, instead of casting Grease to make a laughingstock of your opponent, casts Flesh to Acid, largely just 'cause it looks pretty.

It's just an overall increasing in character 'awesomeness' factor. Not neccessarily related to anime at all (there are very subdued animes out there, in terms of the Awesomeness Factor).

And to be honest, I'm neutral on it.

Callos_DeTerran
2007-12-18, 03:23 PM
This is a semi-silly fear. The simple fact is that 4e will probably eat 3.5 over time. Obviously, all of your books etc are not going to catch fire in June but slowly players may convert systems leaving you with no one to play with under the old rules. Many a 2ed proponent has seen this happen. If the 4e mechanics do not reasonably allow for a low powered setting then those who like that setting have a somewhat reasonable concern that they will be, practically speaking, boxed into a setting they will not

Less silly then you might think for me. I only play with one IRL group, all of which has voiced a general opinion to stick to 3.5 because we've all spent too much money on it (and the other two don't buy any D*D stuff in the first place, so if they want to play 4th, then they'll need to buy the books for it.)

I do admit I'm at least willing to try 4th online before completely condemning it because I'm a cheap bastard, but thats the bottom line for me anyway.

In my experience though, Tolkein has done far more shoehorn players into certain roles or settings then anything I've ever seen (This is with my IRL group, not online). If someones an elf, their always a ranger or druid. Human? Fighter, barbarian, or wizard. So on and so on based on the sort of thing you see in LoTR. I suggested a halfling barbarian once and was asked if halflings could even be barbarians (Mostly as a joke, but with enough puzzlement it was an actual question)

Dallas-Dakota
2007-12-18, 03:26 PM
Why have I suddenly gone thinking about that I´m a huge Tolkien fan, passionately ´dont like ´ anime and think Holywood is full of special effects, a few actors and not much more?

Wizzardman
2007-12-18, 03:27 PM
...Actually, I think the OP may have been arguing that the influence of anime and Hollywood on the 4th edition designers may cause 4th edition to be even more lacking of verisimilitude than 3.5. Verisimilitude being the 'feel' of the setting that previous posters were referring to.

And before anyone blows that statement way out of proportion, and jumps down my throat, as people have been doing a lot in these threads of late:

A. Anime and Hollywood present somewhat less verisimilitude than LotR [unless you're looking at the movies]. In the books, heroes generally didn't perform supernatural feats of awesomeness without, as Mr. Friendly so angrily put it, DMPC intervention--which was part of the point, as the heroes were supposed to be somewhat human, whereas the DMPCs were either angels, twisted monstrosities dumb enough to jump into lava, or unholy abominations. Magic in LotR is supernatural--i.e. beyond nature, and thereby [in LotR] virtually unstoppable by natural means. The less magical people fought like normal people, and had few, if any magical effects.

Whereas, in more recent Hollywood and Anime styles, the average hero is portrayed as much larger than life in both personality [which occured in LotR] and in ability [which was far less significant in LotR]. Evidence includes bullet time, over-the-top martial arts styles, Legolas in the LotR movies, and countless other examples.

B. While 3.5 has never been very good about maintaining verisimilitude, previews of 4th edition have revealed even fewer attempts to maintain or achieve verisimilitude [at least in my mind], and I personally don't believe that moving away from verisimilitude is a good thing. Evidence includes some of the new paladin smite abilities (which really should have been explained in fluff in the preview, rather than requiring a fluff explanation from the players), several examples from the new Star Wars RPG books (which supposedly served as a playtest for 4th Edition's new style), magic recharging on a 'per encounter' basis (who defines how long an encounter is? How do they regain their magic? Then again, we have seen very few accurate previews of how this works, so I shall reserve judgement), and the Book of the Nine Swords (which included stances that provide supernatural abilities without sensible, fluff based explanations [other than "its magic!" or "a wizard did it"]).

C. If you don't mind the loss of verisimilitude, fine. I, however, do mind, and shall complain about it, and I reserve my right to complain about it without a horde of flamers screaming 'gb2 3.5 n00b'.

kamikasei
2007-12-18, 03:31 PM
Why have I suddenly gone thinking about that I´m a huge Tolkien fan, passionately ´dont like ´ anime and think Holywood is full of special effects, a few actors and not much more?

I don't know, because that was barely a sentence. Could you rephrase?

Mr. Friendly
2007-12-18, 03:33 PM
yes and empasis in that post was in the other part of the post referencig holivud and anime, Tolkien was mear example for oposit part of the spectrum whit folclore and the rest of old fantasy stuff, wich more or less most of the other posters seem to get, and you seem to be only one focused on Tolkien being the center of the post, all of witch I already explained to you in my second post so try reading all posts before geting your panties it a twist.

Since you are apparently unfamiliar with your own second post in this thread, let me quote you:


And you managed to totaly misunderstood the post, what i ment was that it seems like they get inspiration for new feats more from modern movies and anime then from folclore and old fantasy , wich may lead to vampire being more similar to Blade movie then Stokers Dracula, but that could only be me.

Which is essentially a continuation of your OP that older = better. Which continues to validate the arguement I have been making all along, that older does not necessarily equal better.


I think it's appropriate at this juncture to point out that That_other_guy is the person who wrote the original post. He does not seem to agree with the literal bent this thread has derailed onto. I have the sneaking suspicion when he referred to Tolkien he was using in a manner to indicate the kind of feel he wanted his universe to have, not to the plot of The Lord of the Rings as a campaign setting particularly. Tolkien get's picked for this because he basically started the genre and many later authors are writing in the same tradition that he did. Would it be better if we referred to it as a more Terry Brooks or David Eddings setting instead?

No, since the OP makes it clear that D&D needs to draw inspiration strictly from
folclore and old fantasy. I think Brooks might be too new and include too many changes to the fantasy universe. :smallyuk:


Oh dear, I can hear the rumble of the approaching 1ed and 2ed hordes approaching... Let them come.


Yes but he used 'and' a logical conjunction for "new and fresher". That means that even if one side of the conjunct is true (newer) the other side must be also for the argument to stand. Much modern fantasy is directly derivative and lacks the detail and imagination of Tolkien, hence it is not fresher. Honestly when I wrote that I was thinking more of Wheel of Time and Song of Fire and Ice. Obviously Tolkien has influenced (and will continue to influence for many years) the shape of Fantasy, however you can still have a new and fresh story/setting/magic/macguffin despite that influence, as well as drawing on other influences.


In the end, that's really all it is. Some folks want a lower powered setting some want a high flying setting. Mechanics, particularly the ones that go into class balance, influence the possible fluff you can use in your own game. If the only way for a fighter to compete is by running up walls and making 37 attacks a round* then the mechanics really just won't work for a lower powered setting. Some fear this about 4e.

What I think is really funny about that is that, if anything, 4e seems to be working to reducing scenarios like that and it is difficult to obtain in 3e, yet in 2e was relatively easy to accomplish. (Two weapon fighting, Haste, Spider Climb)

The way I see it, the evolution of D&D has made it MORE possible, rather than less possible for people to viably run the low-powered kinds of games that people say they want.

Unless of course what people are talking about that they actually want out of the game is the ability to be control freaks and lead players by the nose to exactly what they want and playing the characters the DM wants them to play as opposed to being simple arbiters and interpretive storytellers.

Altair_the_Vexed
2007-12-18, 03:37 PM
Ultimately, given a flexible rules system (and nothing I've read about 4th Ed suggests it will be inflexible), you can run any setting you like.

You might need a couple of house rules, sure, but just as 1st - 3rd Ed are largely classic fantasy novel derived rules-sets but could be played in a Flash Gordon pulp fantasy style (for example), so I expect 4th Ed to be as mutable.

As for verisimilitude, I think a creative DM can probably handle that. It might need a little "This race is not available to play" house ruling, but it's our game, as TSR used to sloganise.

Counterspin
2007-12-18, 03:38 PM
Wizardman : All of your examples involve magic systems, which have no connection to versimilitude, which involves cleaving to reality as close as possible while accepting at face value the rules of magic. Could you find a better word to define what you dislike?

The Glyphstone
2007-12-18, 03:40 PM
What would LOTR be like if it were run as a D&D campaign?

It'd probably end up something like this. (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=612)

Nerd-o-rama
2007-12-18, 03:40 PM
Ah, D&D. Serious Business.


She's clearly a 4ed Truenamer.
I have my doubts as to whether Truenamers can ever be sufficiently Awesome to describe her, but flavorwise, that is pretty much what she does.

Dairun Cates
2007-12-18, 03:42 PM
That's silly.

I (tried to) learn Japanese for the sole purpose of playing imported video games. I failed at that, mostly because the games I'm importing are all text-heavy, and how the hell does anyone memorize kanji? How? They're all just blobs to me.

You don't, at first, really. You're supposed to memorize the symbols and crowns that make up the Kanji. You can then learn the meaning from the symbol itself. After all, forest in Kanji is just the Kanji for tree written 3 times. On the other hand, some of them ARE a bit obscure (The Kanji for "I" is symbolically as "the person who sits/sleeps next to the tree"). Mostly, you learn the basics, then you learn the Kanji.

On the actual topic, it is pretty silly to argue that D&D is ripping off anime/hollywood. The majority of these cool things you'll probably see are usually ripped off originally from folk lore and fairy tales. Technically, if you want hard-core old school fantasy, most folk lore predates Tolkien by quite a long time. All in all, it's just a stylistic difference.

Also, you can't tell me that "those kinds of discussion will be more common" because the game is more "anime like". There's always SOMETHING that gets talked about. If anything, it'll be the same amount of discussions, but we'll lose some of the physics arguments. Now if you're a diehard F=MA fan, I can see you weeping a bit over this prospect, but otherwise, it shouldn't faze gameplay too much.

Oh, and for the record, Anime is a style, not a genre. It'd be impossible to make an ability that isn't similar to SOMETHING in Anime because as a style, it crosses all genres. Hell, at least they're ripping off better genres of anime now than the one that Evard's Black Tentacles comes from. I think that's something we can all get behind.

Although, if D&D is somehow becoming more like EVERY anime genre, I demand talking carriages, Gnomish siege engines made out of their's parents souls, the ability to swallow an enemy's head, impenetrable bikinis that give an armor class bonus of like 20 (25 if bunny ears are included), a base class whose sole-purpose is to make other people go crazy, an actual mechanical benefit for monologuing, adventures set after you're dead, the ability to destroy BBEGs with love and song, confusing romantic interludes over whether drinking from the same cup is your first kiss, Old men that can destroy an entire party of epic level PCs by blinking provided they don't throw their back out, a pair of glasses that gives like a +6 to int, the ability to turn into a woman of pure dream and become the most cracked out superhero ever, random explosions, the ability to use spells for NON-LETHAL damage, a spell that requires a concentration check that if you fail the world is destroyed, a lot more Macguffins, the ability to bend reality with optimism, a gambling addiction defect, entire story-arcs dedicated to learning one spell, falcon punches, entire battles that take place outside of reality, the ability to set yourself on fire, magic swords with cooler abilities than to just hit really hard, USEFUL cinematic alchemy, the ability to flat out defeat an opponent with just your aura of awesomeness, and just about anything you can somehow managed to glean from Perfect Blue, Place Promised to Us in our Early Days, Metropolis, Cat Soup, Monster, and Goodbye Mr. Despair (because those last six would amuse me).

Edit: Oh, and I forget wicked awesome Ballet swordfights. ABSOLUTE MUST!

Ulzgoroth
2007-12-18, 03:44 PM
Thank you, Wizzardman. Saved me needing to say much of anything...

For my own part I'll add: I don't object to magic being commonplace (wizards will always be a core class to me), but I do object to the line between magic and not-magic becoming indistinguishable. A lot of the objectionable things I hear about 4e fall under that.


Wizardman : All of your examples involve magic systems, which have no connection to versimilitude, which involves cleaving to reality as close as possible while accepting at face value the rules of magic. Could you find a better word to define what you dislike?

Could you? Every time this sort of thing comes up, somebody attacks the chosen terminology. It doesn't actually relate usefully to the point, and I've never seen a word that fit the bill. 'Magical realism', perhaps. Somebody used that in the forward of a novel I think.

Wizzardman
2007-12-18, 03:44 PM
What I think is really funny about that is that, if anything, 4e seems to be working to reducing scenarios like that and it is difficult to obtain in 3e, yet in 2e was relatively easy to accomplish. (Two weapon fighting, Haste, Spider Climb)

Funny, I always found the loss of verisimilitude from Two Weapon fighting to be not that much of a problem, except at really high level. True, you get a bunch of attacks in a six-second period, but considering the penalties to attack, it seems pretty realistic--if you flail around desperately with a bunch of sharp objects, odds are that you will occasionally hit, but you won't exactly be very effective.

Now, true, with prestige classes, you can get up to 32 bloody attacks per round by 20th level, with each given a decent chance to hit a CR 20 monster. But by 20th level, most of the players are so far past realism that you might as well set the PCs up against Superman and be done with it.



Unless of course what people are talking about that they actually want out of the game is the ability to be control freaks and lead players by the nose to exactly what they want and playing the characters the DM wants them to play as opposed to being simple arbiters and interpretive storytellers.

Mr. Friendly, please stop ending your arguments with name calling. It makes the rest of your argument look childish. :smalltongue:

Now, if you have some evidence that all players who support 3.5 are control freaks, please present it.


Wizardman : All of your examples involve magic systems, which have no connection to versimilitude, which involves cleaving to reality as close as possible while accepting at face value the rules of magic. Could you find a better word to define what you dislike?

That's actually part of the problem. Its difficult to find an exact term for I'm referring to. Verisimilitude fits better with the combat style involved, at least--where PCs have to abide by the laws of physics, and can't poke fists through steel girders without magic.

Edit: Hold on. Let me look through my old Creative Writing notes, and see what I can come up with.

The closest I can come up with is coherence, by the philosophical definition. Magic's function and existence in the previews of 4th edition feels less internally coherent than in 3.5. The system is not coherent if people focused on fighting without casting spells suddenly can take on magical attributes not provided by items/other people, or if powers can be instantly regained by declaring a battle 'over' (despite the length of the battle, the nature of the battle, or whether the battle is truly over), or if identical actions do not have identical results.

AKA_Bait
2007-12-18, 03:56 PM
Tome of Battle, the most often touted 'anime' supplement does a very good job at boosting a fighter-types effectiveness to much more useful levels.It doesn't involve anything like 'running up walls' or 'hitting things 37 times'...

Indeed, although the fluff and some of the limited mechanics do imply a 'magical' feel to the classes in the book (white raven tactics for example). And as I recall one of the design articles for 4e does mention running up walls although I can't seem to find the link for it at the moment.

Really though, I'm not claiming that 4e will be that way, just that the possibility, is worrying for folks who perfer to have a more mundane feel most of the time.


I think Brooks might be too new and include too many changes to the fantasy universe. :smallyuk:

Ok, this is getting silly. The Sword of Shanara was first published in 1977... it's had 30 years of influence on the genre. Sheesh.


Let them come.

Cool, I'll be over here with some popcorn.


Honestly when I wrote that I was thinking more of Wheel of Time and Song of Fire and Ice. Obviously Tolkien has influenced (and will continue to influence for many years) the shape of Fantasy, however you can still have a new and fresh story/setting/magic/macguffin despite that influence, as well as drawing on other influences.

Of course you can. I also don't think anyone expects, or wants, D&D not to do that. It's just what overall feel, which is fairly or unfairly associated with particlar genre's, 4e will have that seems to be an issue of concern.


The way I see it, the evolution of D&D has made it MORE possible, rather than less possible for people to viably run the low-powered kinds of games that people say they want.

That runs directly contrary to my experience playing 2nd and 3.x but we probably had different experiences with each system.


Unless of course what people are talking about that they actually want out of the game is the ability to be control freaks and lead players by the nose to exactly what they want and playing the characters the DM wants them to play as opposed to being simple arbiters and interpretive storytellers.

A bad DM can ruin any setting in any system. That's a separate issue from the system itself. So long as there is rule 0 there will be the possibilty (and sad reality) of DM's like that.


Ultimately, given a flexible rules system (and nothing I've read about 4th Ed suggests it will be inflexible), you can run any setting you like.

You might need a couple of house rules, sure, but just as 1st - 3rd Ed are largely classic fantasy novel derived rules-sets but could be played in a Flash Gordon pulp fantasy style (for example), so I expect 4th Ed to be as mutable.


It's really an issue of ease of conversion. Yes, any system with enough housr rules and edits can mimic whatever you want. However, when I'm looking for a system I want one that's close to what I'm aiming for where I have to do less work on my own. That's why I'm willing to drop $90 on the core books rather than just homebrew my own system from scratch.


'Magical realism', perhaps. Somebody used that in the forward of a novel I think.

I think that was Neil Gaiman but I could be wrong.

Mr. Friendly
2007-12-18, 03:58 PM
Ok, let's do this:


Funny, I always found the loss of verisimilitude from Two Weapon fighting to be not that much of a problem, except at really high level. True, you get a bunch of attacks in a six-second period, but considering the penalties to attack, it seems pretty realistic--if you flail around desperately with a bunch of sharp objects, odds are that you will occasionally hit, but you won't exactly be very effective.

You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means. You do remember that Haste used to *double* all the attacks you got?


Now, true, with prestige classes, you can get up to 32 bloody attacks per round by 20th level, with each given a decent chance to hit a CR 20 monster. But by 20th level, most of the players are so far past realism that you might as well set the PCs up against Superman and be done with it.

As an aside, perhaps you could show me that build.


Mr. Friendly, please stop ending your arguments with name calling. It makes the rest of your argument look childish. :smalltongue:

What names did I call anyone?


Now, if you have some evidence that all players who support 3.5 are control freaks, please present it.

As it relates to the above, I never said all players or supporters of 3.5 were control freaks. Thank you for playing straw man or not a straw man. My implication however was that those who so strenuously resist 4.0, in much the same manner as those who so strenuously resisted 3.0 dislike the the role of the DM being reduced from omnipotent god to referee. That's my personal evaluation of the mentality, however I lack any proof of it since I lack Telepathy or some form of magical or psionic mind-reading.

Callos_DeTerran
2007-12-18, 04:01 PM
C. If you don't mind the loss of verisimilitude, fine. I, however, do mind, and shall complain about it, and I reserve my right to complain about it without a horde of flamers screaming 'gb2 3.5 n00b'.

I have to admit, verisimilitude has never been a big thing with me. Heroes SHOULD be larger then life and be able to do extraordinary things that other people can't do easily. It's one of the reasons I love fantasy and sci-fi because of the 'greater then normal' feel to it in some fashion or another.

Granted, some times it's entertaining to see a regular guy do something amazing, more often then not I find it dull. ("So your an accomplished swordsman, thats great. So...how do you plan to stop the extraplanar invasion of demons from the Abyss?) Nor do I really like Macguffin's either (Then it's more ordinary person with something extraordinary then heroic), unless being heroic is part of the business.

Once again, in my opinion, you need to be extraordinary to accomplish the REALLY epic things. Being ordinary and still managing it is impressive, but an ordinary person stopping something like the demon invasion above breaks verisimilitude more then some supernatural person doing it. At least the supernatural person has a REASON they can stop it.

Dallas-Dakota
2007-12-18, 04:07 PM
I don't know, because that was barely a sentence. Could you rephrase?

1 I am a huge LOTR fan
2 I think most hollywood movies are almost all special-effects and stunt-mans these days.
3 I don´t like Anime, or manga.(whatever the difference may be)

And this thread made me think of if those facts may be connected toghetter.

Rephrased well enough?

Nerd-o-rama
2007-12-18, 04:08 PM
You don't, at first, really. You're supposed to memorize the symbols and crowns that make up the Kanji. You can then learn the meaning from the symbol itself. After all, forest in Kanji is just the Kanji for tree written 3 times. On the other hand, some of them ARE a bit obscure (The Kanji for "I" is symbolically as "the person who sits/sleeps next to the tree"). Mostly, you learn the basics, then you learn the Kanji.
Tried it, failed. Well, got a C, but close enough. Sigh.


Although, if D&D is somehow becoming more like EVERY anime genre. I demand talking carriages, Gnomish siege engines made out of their's parents souls, the ability to swallow an enemy's head, impenetrable bikinis that give an armor class bonus of like 20 (25 if bunny ears are included), a base class whose sole-purpose is to make other people go crazy, an actual mechanical benefit for monologuing, adventures set after you're dead, the ability to destroy BBEGs with love and song, confusing romantic interludes over whether drinking from the same cup is your first kiss, Old men that can destroy an entire party of epic level PCs by blinking provided they don't throw their back out, a pair of glasses that gives like a +6 to int, the ability to turn into a woman of pure dream and become the most cracked out superhero ever, random explosions, the ability to use spells for NON-LETHAL damage, a spell that requires a concentration check that if you fail the world is destroyed, a lot more Macguffins, the ability to bend reality with optimism, a gambling addiction defect, entire story-arcs dedicated to learning one spell, falcon punches, entire battles that take place outside of reality, the ability to set yourself on fire, magic swords with cooler abilities than to just hit really hard, USEFUL cinematic alchemy, the ability to flat out defeat an opponent with just your aura of awesomeness, and just about anything you can somehow managed to glean from Perfect Blue, Place Promised to Us in our Early Days, Metropolis, Cat Soup, Monster, and Goodbye Mr. Despair (because those last six would amuse me).
I can't believe I can cite most of those; I mean, the shows I actually watch are rather limited in scope. I guess I've picked up a lot of references.

Also, I want this system. BESM doesn't count, at least not the d20 version.

Wizzardman
2007-12-18, 04:13 PM
Ok, let's do this:


Okay.


You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means. You do remember that Haste used to *double* all the attacks you got?

Yes. And as I said before, 3.5 had its problems, as well. But Haste was an example of a problem that was easily rectified with white-out. I'm concerned that 4th will have problems that are more... wide-spread than white-out can fix.


As an aside, perhaps you could show me that build.

You'd have to contact Mikheleus; he created that build for an epic game we played freshman year. We only ever had one real combat that game...


What names did I call anyone?

Ah, forgive me. I may have taken the control freaks statement too seriously.



As it relates to the above, I never said all players or supporters of 3.5 were control freaks. Thank you for playing straw man or not a straw man. My implication however was that those who so strenuously resist 4.0, in much the same manner as those who so strenuously resisted 3.0 dislike the the role of the DM being reduced from omnipotent god to referee. That's my personal evaluation of the mentality, however I lack any proof of it since I lack Telepathy or some form of magical or psionic mind-reading.
You really should work on that. I hear telepathy is quite useful. :smallwink:

And to be fair, I doubt there's any way to reduce the position of DM to referee status; "referee status" would imply that DMs have some control over their players. Personally, I'm more concerned about maintaining the right feel and atmosphere in the game; I'm a fan of somewhat grim and gritty fantasy, and I end up with a lot of players who want to either be 'magic users' or 'not magic users.'

Counterspin
2007-12-18, 04:14 PM
"The system is not coherent if people focused on fighting without casting spells suddenly can take on magical attributes not provided by items/other people, or if powers can be instantly regained by declaring a battle 'over' (despite the length of the battle, the nature of the battle, or whether the battle is truly over), or if identical actions do not have identical results."

None of your examples apply to 4e. What martial class suddenly gains magical attributes not from items/other people? Powers, if they're similar to SWSE are not instantly regained, but require a minute of rest, and I see no examples of identical actions not having identical results. Can we please have some exact examples, because I've seen no intimation that any of the things you've discussed are actually there in 4e.

Leadfeathermcc
2007-12-18, 04:15 PM
My implication however was that those who so strenuously resist 4.0, in much the same manner as those who so strenuously resisted 3.0 dislike the the role of the DM being reduced from omnipotent god to referee.
That is a rather broad generalization. What about those of us who resist 4.0 because we are cheap bastards who do not feel like spending money on new books? Actually resist is to strong a word for what I feel--mild curiosity about the new system, coupled with the desire to not spend money when the old system does what I want with just a few tweaks, all wrapped up in a thin layer of ennui--probably describes my feeling better. There are a multitude of reasons to want, or not to want 4.0, and I am actually getting more entertainment value from reading all these threads where so much strong opinion has been formed on so little solid information than in reading the WotC website marketing.

kamikasei
2007-12-18, 04:18 PM
1 I am a huge LOTR fan
2 I think most hollywood movies are almost all special-effects and stunt-mans these days.
3 I don´t like Anime, or manga.(whatever the difference may be)

And this thread made me think of if those facts may be connected toghetter.

Rephrased well enough?

Yeah, that makes an actual coherent thought, so well done on the rephrasing.

Incidentally: anime is animated. Manga is a comic book or graphic novel. And if you didn't know that much, then I suspect I could find an anime you'd like.

Counterspin
2007-12-18, 04:18 PM
Economic reasons are one of the best reasons I've seen to stick to 3e. It's a simple argument, it applies to everyone, and it's not based on imaginary influences.

Tengu
2007-12-18, 04:21 PM
just about anything you can somehow managed to glean from Perfect Blue, Place Promised to Us in our Early Days, Metropolis, Cat Soup, Monster, and Goodbye Mr. Despair (because those last six would amuse me).


Umbrellas being usable as weapons?



Also, I want this system. BESM doesn't count, at least not the d20 version.

I've heard that the tri-stat version is much better, as always in the case of games that get later converted into d20 - the original is a healthy, strong specimen, the clone is retarded, misses half of the vital organs and has trouble breathing on its own. Star Wars might be the sole exception.

AKA_Bait
2007-12-18, 04:23 PM
"The system is not coherent if people focused on fighting without casting spells suddenly can take on magical attributes not provided by items/other people, or if powers can be instantly regained by declaring a battle 'over' (despite the length of the battle, the nature of the battle, or whether the battle is truly over), or if identical actions do not have identical results."

None of your examples apply to 4e. What martial class suddenly gains magical attributes not from items/other people? Powers, if they're similar to SWSE are not instantly regained, but require a minute of rest, and I see no examples of identical actions not having identical results. Can we please have some exact examples, because I've seen no intimation that any of the things you've discussed are actually there in 4e.

I think he's concerned about the ToB maneuvers mechanic being incorporated into 4e. I find that mechanic problematic as well. I don't know squat about Saga or the powers in it so I'll just stop here.

Counterspin
2007-12-18, 04:28 PM
The TOB maneuver system can't be ported over because everyone is on the same daily/encounter/round setup now.

Wizzardman
2007-12-18, 04:37 PM
"The system is not coherent if people focused on fighting without casting spells suddenly can take on magical attributes not provided by items/other people, or if powers can be instantly regained by declaring a battle 'over' (despite the length of the battle, the nature of the battle, or whether the battle is truly over), or if identical actions do not have identical results."

None of your examples apply to 4e. What martial class suddenly gains magical attributes not from items/other people? Powers, if they're similar to SWSE are not instantly regained, but require a minute of rest, and I see no examples of identical actions not having identical results. Can we please have some exact examples, because I've seen no intimation that any of the things you've discussed are actually there in 4e.

I was trying to avoid most examples, as they've already been discussed/fought over in other threads, but I was referring to:

1. Several stances/actions in ToB, which allow for actions that I view to be somewhat unrealistic, and [combined with the fluff they present] fit more with magical effects than ways or methods of swordfighting. These are less of a problem in ToB by itself, but given both designer statements on the use of ToB, and the paladin smite abilities, I'm concerned that we'll end up with fighters and warlords breaking magical DR without using magic.

2. The problem with the "a moment of rest=recharge" statement is: how long is this moment, and when does it apply? Can the caster duck behind a column, sleep for five rounds, and then pop back out refreshed? Is there a set time for the moment--if the enemies assault in waves, can the caster recharge between waves, just because he/she's not fighting? Is a courtroom an encounter--can the caster recharge his 'zone of truth spells' between each speech, or are social situations even listed as encounters? I'd like to have the option of escaping from Vancian magic, but coherence is more important.

3. The last refers to the paladin 'smite for heals' system. How does that work in the fluff? Does the paladin's god have a ton of Holy Clerics sitting around, waiting to toss heal spells at the right signal from the paladins? Is the paladin's faith delivering the healing--if so, why does range matter (given certain limits, of course)? Why doesn't the paladin's faith allow him to heal his party members with every strike? Is there something special about the attack itself (other than the Paladin declaring it a smite)--can enemies use Spellcraft Checks to identify what he's up to?

Counterspin
2007-12-18, 04:54 PM
Magic is arbitrary. That's the way it is, that's the way it's always been. The strength of a fireball isn't dictated by some invisible ruleset that dictates how easy it is to channel fire onto the prime material plane, but rather by systemic balance. And the fact that you'd prefer "Vancian coherence"... I don't know what to say. The Vancian system is just as incoherent as any other magic system. Same with paladins. Channeling divine energy to produce a huge variety of effects is a staple of 3e. It's called cleric spellcasting. All I can say is that I think your version of coherence is you convincing yourself there is a structure behind 3e magic when there wasn't any.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-12-18, 05:06 PM
Oh crap. Now Tengu's avatar is even more frightening.

Attilargh, you are history's greatest monster.

Morty
2007-12-18, 05:09 PM
I don't get it. What's so frightening about an anime girl grinning maniacally?:smallconfused:

Wizzardman
2007-12-18, 05:18 PM
Magic is arbitrary. That's the way it is, that's the way it's always been. The strength of a fireball isn't dictated by some invisible ruleset that dictates how easy it is to channel fire onto the prime material plane, but rather by systemic balance. And the fact that you'd prefer "Vancian coherence"... I don't know what to say. The Vancian system is just as incoherent as any other magic system. Same with paladins. Channeling divine energy to produce a huge variety of effects is a staple of 3e. It's called cleric spellcasting. All I can say is that I think your version of coherence is you convincing yourself there is a structure behind 3e magic when there wasn't any.

...Not really. Its not that hard to make new, balanced spells--you just have to reverse engineer the process they used to make the original spells. Similarly, all magic items followed similar rules (worth a +1 enchantment, requires blah to make, affects blah on a d20 roll or blah on a damage roll, etc). All spellcasters had a spell list, from which they could obtain a certain number of spells, and use a certain number of them at a time, and had to cast using a combination of words, movement, and items. Its part of game balance, yes, but it helps to create an organized, straightforward world. It's easy to make fluff for "why things work this way" when the game balance system remains the same for all characters. Likewise, its easy to make your own modifications with a well-structured system. If magic was arbitrary, every thread on the Homebrewed board would be about a class that can, say, turn enemies into muppets at a whim, because there's nothing in the rules that would say "classes can't do that".

The thing about cleric spellcasting was that it was spellcasting--it followed certain rules, it required certain actions, it was listed as spells, etc. It wasn't a paladin's attack suddenly causing healing because the paladin thought to himself "Hey, god, this is for Billy." It required incantations, etc. If the paladin cast a spell that damaged an opponent and healed a friend, I suppose that would be a little better--at least the god would be doing all of the work, instead of arbitrarily rewarding the paladin's action (and not, say, all the other actions he's done today, which might have been better), but that still sounds a little counterintuitive.

Now I'm not saying I like the Vancian system, but it did have structure--casters could only cast a certain number of times in a period, and had to rest for a long time before they could cast again. Now, again, some of it did seem kind of arbitrary, but the Vancian system didn't mean "oh, while we fight, the wizard goes and hides in a closet, so he's out of the combat; that way he'll pop back in, fully recharged, in about three rounds."

Nerd-o-rama
2007-12-18, 05:21 PM
I don't get it. What's so frightening about an anime girl grinning maniacally?:smallconfused:
Well, she's never smiled period. Ever. Not even once, which the Emotionless Girl usually does to let us know she's an actual character.

Also, she's an alien, and the last member of that particular alien group we saw smiling turned out to be a knife-wielding sociopath that tried to kill our viewpoint character (which segued into the best Magical Girl fight in the history of anime, by the way).

Artanis
2007-12-18, 06:09 PM
That is a rather broad generalization. What about those of us who resist 4.0 because we are cheap bastards who do not feel like spending money on new books? Actually resist is to strong a word for what I feel--mild curiosity about the new system, coupled with the desire to not spend money when the old system does what I want with just a few tweaks, all wrapped up in a thin layer of ennui--probably describes my feeling better.
Those people tend to argue "4e is a waste of money", as opposed to, "4E IS TEH DESTROYZING DNDZOR!"

Counterspin
2007-12-18, 06:12 PM
"If magic was arbitrary, every thread on the Homebrewed board would be about a class that can, say, turn enemies into muppets at a whim, because there's nothing in the rules that would say "classes can't do that"."

No the reason why you don't find those things in homebrew is because being wildly more powerful than existing material negates the point of putting homebrew on line - offering people good ideas for their own use. Because a DM wouldn't allow a class that powerful. It has nothing to do with coherence, it's all balance.

"The thing about cleric spellcasting was that it was spellcasting--it followed certain rules, it required certain actions, it was listed as spells, etc."

All of these things are true about paladin smites in 4e. They follow certain rules, they require certain actions, they're magical effects. You've blinded yourself to this fact.

""oh, while we fight, the wizard goes and hides in a closet, so he's out of the combat; that way he'll pop back in, fully recharged, in about three rounds."

That's not out of combat. It's not participating in combat. It's a strawman.

Do you have a single of example of nonsystemic coherence in 3e magic? I can't think of one.

Leadfeathermcc
2007-12-18, 06:25 PM
Those people tend to argue "4e is a waste of money", as opposed to, "4E IS TEH DESTROYZING DNDZOR!"

My interpretation of Mr. Friendly's comment, and I admit it was my interpretation and could be flawed, was that people opposed to 4.0 were opposed to 4.0 for one monolithic reason. So I was responding to that as I dislike monolithicreasonism . . .ummmm moving on. . .

As to 4.0 being a waste of money, I do not see it as a waste of money, rather it is something I have no desire to spend money on, others might find it a fine place to put their entertainment dollars.

On a seperate note, I just bought Rules Compendium for my birthday and am finding it a nice resource. I wish the rules had been written this clearly the first time around.

edit: and now I really want to make a monster called DNDZOR!

Serenity
2007-12-18, 06:35 PM
I was trying to avoid most examples, as they've already been discussed/fought over in other threads, but I was referring to:

1. Several stances/actions in ToB, which allow for actions that I view to be somewhat unrealistic, and [combined with the fluff they present] fit more with magical effects than ways or methods of swordfighting. These are less of a problem in ToB by itself, but given both designer statements on the use of ToB, and the paladin smite abilities, I'm concerned that we'll end up with fighters and warlords breaking magical DR without using magic.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: White Raven is the art of teamwork. Iron Heart is the art of being really skilled with a blade. Stone Dragon is the art of hitting things really hard. Diamond Mind is the art of finesse and intelligence in battle. Setting Sun is basically Judo. Tiger Claw is the art of mobility and ferocity. Desert Wind and Shadow Hand are explicitly supernatural, because they're meant to be mystical sword styles learned by mystical swordsmen. Devoted Spirit should probably be labeled supernatural, but again, it's learned by holy warriors. Not seeing the problem here. I can admit that there's certain Stone Dragon maneuvers that might deserve a supernatural label. So if you don't like that, you can drop them. There's still lots and lots that's perfectly acceptable for a mundane character.


2. The problem with the "a moment of rest=recharge" statement is: how long is this moment, and when does it apply? Can the caster duck behind a column, sleep for five rounds, and then pop back out refreshed? Is there a set time for the moment--if the enemies assault in waves, can the caster recharge between waves, just because he/she's not fighting? Is a courtroom an encounter--can the caster recharge his 'zone of truth spells' between each speech, or are social situations even listed as encounters? I'd like to have the option of escaping from Vancian magic, but coherence is more important.

The rules on this are perfectly coherent. Recharging abilities requires some time to get into the right frame of mind/reposition yourself/etc. In combat, that usually involves sacrificing an action or two to recharge one ability, which can leave you very vulnerable. A break in action of a few minutes when you can relax allows you to get back everything. If you're being hounded by wave after wave of enemy, that will probably be difficult, and even if you have the time between assaults to recharge, it may also mean that you're stuck in the same place when it comes. This is a fine system; it eliminates the mentality of the narcoleptic party without allowing them to press an 'I win' button constantly.

Wizzardman
2007-12-18, 06:38 PM
"The thing about cleric spellcasting was that it was spellcasting--it followed certain rules, it required certain actions, it was listed as spells, etc."

All of these things are true about paladin smites in 4e. They follow certain rules, they require certain actions, they're magical effects. You've blinded yourself to this fact.

But the rules should be logical. 'Paladin hits=healing occurs' seems illogical to me; there's no set pattern to fighting, and it only seems to occur occasionally, rather than consistently when the paladin hits. Obviously, his/her god is not very good at positively reinforcing the paladin for hitting.



That's not out of combat. It's not participating in combat. It's a strawman.

So there's a difference between out of combat and not participating in combat? You're saying there's a difference, and yet actionwise, I'm not seeing any. The wizard doesn't do or feel anything differently between resting during combat and resting after combat; why would their spells not recharge?



Do you have a single of example of nonsystemic coherence in 3e magic? I can't think of one.

Fighters use weapons, armor, and natural skill to defeat enemies--they rely on training and skill, rather than using magic to manipulate the cosmos. Paladins are fighters who channel their faith into magic, and use it to fight their enemies--they usually use weapons and armor, but have some limited access to magic, which they channel using certain rituals.

Most of the main classes follow certain themes, and don't deviate from the theme just because it would make them more powerful. Fighters could be much more powerful if they could channel magic, but they don't, because they're theme is 'fighting, and not directly using magic'.


Setting Sun is basically Judo.


My Judo instructor might disagree with you there, but okay. And Stone Dragon was the only style I ever had a problem with.



The rules on this are perfectly coherent. Recharging abilities requires some time to get into the right frame of mind/reposition yourself/etc. In combat, that usually involves sacrificing an action or two to recharge one ability, which can leave you very vulnerable. A break in action of a few minutes when you can relax allows you to get back everything. If you're being hounded by wave after wave of enemy, that will probably be difficult, and even if you have the time between assaults to recharge, it may also mean that you're stuck in the same place when it comes. This is a fine system; it eliminates the mentality of the narcoleptic party without allowing them to press an 'I win' button constantly.

Okay. I'll accept that. That's all I was asking for--a solid definition. It still seems a little strange to me, and I imagine players will be arguing that psychotropic drugs, tv, sedatives, or quick doses of chocolate will be put them in the right frame of mind, but I'll accept it, as long as its consistent. A wizard can take a break for a round to bring back a spell they just cast, etc.

Tengu
2007-12-18, 06:55 PM
Oh crap. Now Tengu's avatar is even more frightening.


If it's any help, the fruit of my half-assed resizing skills gives me the creeps each time I post, too. Guess that my masochistic side is slowly coming out.

tyckspoon
2007-12-18, 07:19 PM
Fighters use weapons, armor, and natural skill to defeat enemies--they rely on training and skill, rather than using magic to manipulate the cosmos. Paladins are fighters who channel their faith into magic, and use it to fight their enemies--they usually use weapons and armor, but have some limited access to magic, which they channel using certain rituals.

Most of the main classes follow certain themes, and don't deviate from the theme just because it would make them more powerful. Fighters could be much more powerful if they could channel magic, but they don't, because they're theme is 'fighting, and not directly using magic'.


I'm not seeing how you consider the Smite previews to be deviating from the Paladin's theme. He's a warrior who calls on divine energy to empower himself. In 3.x, this was represented with multiple different abilities: he could Smite, which let him use divine energy to harm his foes. He could cast spells, which let him use divine energy for assorted other effects. He could channel divine energy in a third entirely different way to Turn Undead. I think the Smite preview indicates that the Paladin is merely having his different abilities rolled into a more cohesive single mechanic; now when he Smites, he channels some divine energy to attack his enemy and some of it to do what a 3rd Ed paladin would have had to cast a spell for or use a Turn attempt. Personally, I find nothing wrong with the idea, and it will hopefully help separate the conceptual space of the Paladin and the Cleric; they're standing on each other's feet in the default 3rd edition rules.

Dairun Cates
2007-12-18, 07:36 PM
I don't get it. What's so frightening about an anime girl grinning maniacally?:smallconfused:
Watch Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya and Higarashi, you'll get it. It's about 10 times more disturbing than Rei grinning in Eva.

Counterspin
2007-12-18, 07:57 PM
"But the rules should be logical. 'Paladin hits=healing occurs' seems illogical to me; there's no set pattern to fighting, and it only seems to occur occasionally, rather than consistently when the paladin hits. Obviously, his/her god is not very good at positively reinforcing the paladin for hitting."

You defined what was good about clerical spellcasting, I showed it was identical to 4e paladin smites, and you move the goalposts. Okay.

"So there's a difference between out of combat and not participating in combat? You're saying there's a difference, and yet actionwise, I'm not seeing any. The wizard doesn't do or feel anything differently between resting during combat and resting after combat; why would their spells not recharge?"

If you think standing around doing nothing is the same as hiding in a corner while people who want to kill you try to kill your buddies, I have nothing to offer you.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-18, 08:13 PM
Seeing as the thread has transformed into several different conversations, might as well ask my own question:

Did anyone realize what the OP posted was the equivalent of "The Beatles vs. Genesis+Britney Spears"? And before anyone asks, Genesis is anime's avatar, Britney is Hollywood's incarnation.

VeisuItaTyhjyys
2007-12-18, 08:20 PM
Also, D&D characters' level is rarely over nine thousaaaaaand!

Also, instead of the monk dying about twice a plot arc, monks never die. However, the monk being useless is true in both anime and D&D.
Seriously, Krillin. Just stay home.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-18, 08:23 PM
Actually, he has to come. Never know when you need a walking Macguffin.

Artanis
2007-12-18, 08:32 PM
And it's not like he takes up much space.

Nightgaunt
2007-12-18, 09:03 PM
This thread is awesome.

I remember the cries when advanced went to 3.x, same cries. In my opinion they were right. In this case though it was the System of magic that created a more magic intensive world. Sure, a DM could just ignore the rules, but within the structure of the rules magic in 3.x is way easier to come by then in 2nd advanced. My guess is 4e will continue that trend, in order to make a character more fun to play "out of the box" and to grab new gamers.

My guess (And this is a guess) is that WoTC as a company is far more interested in tapping in to the larger markets. I would even go to the view that the competition has less to do with 4e being like hollywood as it is 4e being like MMORPG. I'm sure the guys at wizards would sell their children in to slavery to put up the kind of numbers Blizzard does.

I have to admit though, this is a flavor issue, and I don't know enough about 4e for sure. I wasn't a big fan of 3e when it came out, but I finally made the switch at 3.5. I liked some of the adds (The skill system which may have been cribbed off some other systems is very good, and the feats were a step in the right direction I think) but others I hated (the way you made magical items). You just have to change up the rules to meet the thematic elements of your campaign world is all. It's true though, by RAW, you really can't have a low-magic 3e campaign, and if you do within 30-40 sessions you will.

Tren
2007-12-18, 09:05 PM
The light reflecting from his head can be a distraction though.

As for the paladin smite discussion; the concept of the Paladin's god/faith bringing renewed vigor to his allies as he deals a powerful blow against an enemy is no less coherent than anything about clerical spellcasting. Why does an infinite being only grant spells to his servants on a limited basis, why do all gods regardless of alignment or portfolio grant the exact same set of spells (domains aside), and why if spells are divinely granted and only an extension of the divine will why would the individual clerics wisdom have anything to do with the process?

These are an arbitrary set of mechanics that we apply fluff to in order to answer these questions and create verisimilitude. There are plenty of fluff explanations to describe why a paladin smashing away at enemies would renew his allies, and they're no more or less coherent than any other fluff/mechanic combo in the game.

Nightgaunt
2007-12-18, 09:08 PM
Why does an infinite being only grant spells to his servants on a limited basis, why do all gods regardless of alignment or portfolio grant the exact same set of spells (domains aside), and why if spells are divinely granted and only an extension of the divine will why would the individual clerics wisdom have anything to do with the process?

I'd grant you the same spell selection but I would say the other two are reasonable constraints.

1) If the god funneled too much power on a creature that was not yet ready for that power the creature would perish. The god slowly funnels power, over time, in ever increasing amounts.

2) Wisdom has to do with being intune with and aware of your enviornment. It seems to me the ability of the cleric to manifest a gods energy has more to do with the Cleric's ability to understand his chosen deity's will. A will that can not be intellectually understood but instead is "felt". I would take that as a measure of Wisdom.

I never found those particularly arbitrary.

Tren
2007-12-18, 09:19 PM
I'd grant you the same spell selection but I would say the other two are reasonable constraints.

1) If the god funneled too much power on a creature that was not yet ready for that power the creature would perish. The god slowly funnels power, over time, in ever increasing amounts.

2) Wisdom has to do with being intune with and aware of your enviornment. It seems to me the ability of the cleric to manifest a gods energy has more to do with the Cleric's ability to understand his chosen deity's will. A will that can not be intellectually understood but instead is "felt". I would take that as a measure of Wisdom.

I never found those particularly arbitrary.

Well sure it's arbitrary, is there anything in the rules that explicitly states the reasons why clerical spellcasting functions the way it does? I think at most there's some references in general to spellcasters "growing in power" but what does that mean exactly? We as players and DMs can make some logical assumptions about the reasons why game mechanics work the way they do, but we're really just filling in the blanks with fluff that fits our game/campaign setting.

I happen to agree with the reasons you listed, I think in most any game world those would be perfectly reasonable explanations for the mechanics of spellcasting. But they're still only as valid as an individual player/dm/group deems them to be.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-12-18, 11:27 PM
If it's any help, the fruit of my half-assed resizing skills gives me the creeps each time I post, too. Guess that my masochistic side is slowly coming out.
Still not as masochistic as the people taking this thread seriously.

kamikasei
2007-12-19, 02:31 AM
So there's a difference between out of combat and not participating in combat? You're saying there's a difference, and yet actionwise, I'm not seeing any. The wizard doesn't do or feel anything differently between resting during combat and resting after combat; why would their spells not recharge?

Speaking for ToB, not 4e since its mechanics on per-encounter abilities and recharging are unknown: if you're keeping a count of rounds and initiative and so on, then you have to use your recovery mechanic to get back maneuvers, which uses up actions. A Warblade in a long-drawn-out fight could, in principle, go off to a corner and use standard action after standard action to flourish his blade uselessly until he has all his maneuvers back. His buddies probably wouldn't thank him for that, though. An encounter is over once you say "ok, fight's over, we are no longer in combat mode and aren't bothering to keep track of rounds precisely". Between that point and the next fight it's assumed you have time enough to regain all your maneuvers.

If encounters are coming so thick and fast that you're having to track every six-second increment in between them, then they're effectively one big encounter from the ToB maneuver point of view.


Seeing as the thread has transformed into several different conversations, might as well ask my own question:

Did anyone realize what the OP posted was the equivalent of "The Beatles vs. Genesis+Britney Spears"? And before anyone asks, Genesis is anime's avatar, Britney is Hollywood's incarnation.

Well, that's the point I was trying to make here.


Hey, OP! Could you explain why the thread subject conflates Hollywood and Anime? Set up as an opposition to Tolkien that just sounds like "old fantasy novels vs. more recent fantasy of anything other than novel format".

But no one listened... *sniff*

Tengu
2007-12-19, 02:39 AM
I preferred the old way people were complaining. The new trends in complaining are much worse, less creative, break with the roots of how we used to complain in the past and just cater to a wider audience instead of focusing on how complaining should really look like.

Azukius
2007-12-19, 02:40 AM
This thread is Waaaaaaaaaaaaaay of topic.
we could have a vote, Tolkien or Anime? Wont change anything but the results might be interesting

oh, and I'm going for Tolkien.

kamikasei
2007-12-19, 02:43 AM
This thread is Waaaaaaaaaaaaaay of topic.
we could have a vote, Tolkien or Anime? Wont change anything but the results might be interesting

oh, and I'm going for Tolkien.

False dichotomy for the win!

I vote for Kodos.

Tengu
2007-12-19, 02:45 AM
This thread is Waaaaaaaaaaaaaay of topic.
we could have a vote, Tolkien or Anime? Wont change anything but the results might be interesting

oh, and I'm going for Tolkien.

I vote for Cake. It's delicious and moist and you cannot go wrong with it.

Azukius
2007-12-19, 02:53 AM
Q: how many gamers does it take to change a light bulb
A: Change? We dont need no stinking change!

Rolaran
2007-12-19, 03:31 AM
I vote for Cake. It's delicious and moist and you cannot go wrong with it.

Must... fight... urge... Can't... hold out... much... longeeerrr...

The cake is a lie!

Sorry, momentary loss of control there.

Anyway, I don't particularly care what served as the inspiration for my D&D, as long as I enjoy myself and so does the group. Heck, I've homebrewed in creatures from Star Control II and X-COM; if things snuck in from ancient Sci-Fi PC games make D&D more interesting and fun, then why not?

Khanderas
2007-12-19, 03:43 AM
Must... fight... urge... Can't... hold out... much... longeeerrr...

The cake is a lie!

Pie is exactly three !:smallbiggrin:

Mr. Friendly
2007-12-19, 06:11 AM
False dichotomy for the win!

I vote for Kodos.

Why are we building a giant death-ray aimed at a planet I've never heard of?

Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.

Abortions for all! - BOOOO!
Abortions for none! - BOOOO!
Abortions for some, miniature American flags for others! - YAY!

On a serious note though, going back to "classic fantasy".

I would like to point out that 1e and 2e were capable of recreating Tolkien. 3e and 4e can do the same; the difference is that the default power level of the characters is not Frodo and Sam; it's Conan and Elric.

One of the things that amuses me in the "4e is ruining D&D!" threads (which I label as such to differentiate them from "I just bought a bunch of 3.5, I ain't payin for 4e." threads) is very often, I find the same people complaining about the same things: anime influence, too Hollywood, Golden Wyvern Adept (and similar fluff bits); the latter of which is the one that entertains me the most. The complaint generally goes that Wizards is putting in too much fluff and it will be impossible to have to go through every book and convert everything to a world appropriate name; yet those same people, when the horrible imbalances and flaws are brought up in 3.x have no problem rattling off a dozen plus houserules and long lists of disallowed/rebalanced character classes.

Metathesiophobia - Fear of change.

Metathesiotetartosekdosiphobia - Fear of changing to Fourth Edition. :smalltongue:

hamlet
2007-12-19, 08:49 AM
Pie is exactly three !:smallbiggrin:

You just killed my 8th grade math teacher!

Thank you!

AKA_Bait
2007-12-19, 10:29 AM
Pie is exactly three !:smallbiggrin:

Wrong! Pie is excactly apple or possibly blueberry!

Attilargh
2007-12-19, 10:30 AM
I preferred the old way people were complaining. The new trends in complaining are much worse, less creative, break with the roots of how we used to complain in the past and just cater to a wider audience instead of focusing on how complaining should really look like.
Y'know, no-one's going to kick your door in and threaten you with a gun until you start complaining in a modern way. Me, I'm bored of the old way of complaining. Who honestly cares if I don't playfully compare my target to llamas? I just want to vent my frustration at the creation, and if I have to go against a few unwritten laws to do so, so be it!

Nerd-o-rama
2007-12-19, 10:34 AM
Y'know, no-one's going to kick your door in and threaten you with a gun until you start complaining in a modern way.
Clearly, you haven't been on the internet very long.

psychoticbarber
2007-12-19, 10:35 AM
Wrong! Pie is excactly apple or possibly blueberry!

What about lemon meringue? Or boisonberry? Pie must equal these as well! Equal opportunity for pie!

AKA_Bait
2007-12-19, 10:40 AM
What about lemon meringue? Or boisonberry? Pie must equal these as well! Equal opportunity for pie!

Pah. Down with your newfangeled unamerican so called pies! There are only 2 real pies! Any new pie just besmirches the sanctity of the old pies with its horrid and overpowered lemon and boisenberry flavor!

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-19, 10:44 AM
Pies, however, are actually Power armors of apple and lemon bars. And the nonamerican pies are prototype versions.

hamlet
2007-12-19, 10:45 AM
Pah. Down with your newfangeled unamerican so called pies! There are only 2 real pies! Any new pie just besmirches the sanctity of the old pies with its horrid and overpowered lemon and boisenberry flavor!

What about cherry?

psychoticbarber
2007-12-19, 10:46 AM
Pah. Down with your newfangeled unamerican so called pies! There are only 2 real pies! Any new pie just besmirches the sanctity of the old pies with its horrid and overpowered lemon and boisenberry flavor!

Pah, down with American Imperialist Pie. I'm a Canadian! Your pies might keep mine safe, but we have the right, nay, the duty to oppose you!

Except our government. They're supposed to go along with you, and the people are supposed to complain about the influx of American Pies, but never actually do anything about it, because we're Canadian.

...okay, it's political, and I'll change it if the mods want me to, but I am making fun of my OWN country.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-19, 10:48 AM
Suddenly, this feels like a discussion of RIFTS politics.

Mr. Friendly
2007-12-19, 10:49 AM
Bah, you people and your disgusting fruit pies!

What about Chocolate Cream Pies?

Or better still Meat pies! How about Shoo-Fly Pie? Pecan Pie!

How abouta Pizza Pie!

psychoticbarber
2007-12-19, 10:54 AM
Bah, you people and your disgusting fruit pies!

What about Chocolate Cream Pies?

Or better still Meat pies! How about Shoo-Fly Pie? Pecan Pie!

How abouta Pizza Pie!

Get six pieces, head to the centre of the board, answer one question, and win!

Leadfeathermcc
2007-12-19, 11:06 AM
I have nothing against your new pie, but I have a perfectly good pie already and wonder why I should buy a new pie.

just trying to be consistant. :smallwink:

So now we know that WotC is really the Pieman

http://www.strawberry-shortcake.net/CollectorsInfo/Vintage/First/purplepieman.JPG

AKA_Bait
2007-12-19, 11:13 AM
I have nothing against your new pie, but I have a perfectly good pie already and wonder why I should buy a new pie.

just trying to be consistant. :smallwink:

So now we know that WotC is really the Pieman

http://www.strawberry-shortcake.net/CollectorsInfo/Vintage/First/purplepieman.JPG

The simple truth is, these new pies are unknown and untested. We have no way of knowing, other than the boxes the bakers put them in, if they are safe pies or poison pies. Blueberry and Apple pies are known, and good, even if some parts are only half baked.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-19, 11:23 AM
You can always test 'em on Truenamers, Healers, and CWar samurai. Foolproof testing!

Oh, nice new avatar, but I prefer the shaved version.

AKA_Bait
2007-12-19, 11:43 AM
You can always test 'em on Truenamers, Healers, and CWar samurai. Foolproof testing!

Humm... but if they survive the pie... then... we are all doomed!


Oh, nice new avatar, but I prefer the shaved version.

Thanks. Illiteratescribe just made it for me. I'd been using the old one for over a year and wanted a change. I like Sampi's too and I'm sure it's not gone forever. I'm still hoping someone will make me a christmas one. :-)

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-19, 12:08 PM
With the beard, you can say you're Jolly Old Saint Nick after using an epic version of the Time Regression power to return to the 20's. Now, what red could be used for a suit?

Tengu
2007-12-19, 01:27 PM
Pah, down with American Imperialist Pie. I'm a Canadian! Your pies might keep mine safe, but we have the right, nay, the duty to oppose you!

Except our government. They're supposed to go along with you, and the people are supposed to complain about the influx of American Pies, but never actually do anything about it, because we're Canadian.

...okay, it's political, and I'll change it if the mods want me to, but I am making fun of my OWN country.

But that might offend those of us who look up to your country, or hold it in high regards. For example me, I think that Canada is the Jesu Crystal Dragon (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrystalDragonJesus) of nations that will bring salvation to us all!

Oof, I almost brought religion to this thread, too.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-19, 01:42 PM
It also hurts cynics, because they can't use the ultimate excuse: "Blame Canada".

Nerd-o-rama
2007-12-19, 02:20 PM
Nobody cares if you make fun of Canada's politics. Not because you are Canadian, but because it's Canada.

MagicPrime
2007-12-19, 03:47 PM
π = delicious

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-19, 03:49 PM
That's true, nerd-o-rama. Canada has the "be unnoticed by everyone" superpower.

psychoticbarber
2007-12-19, 04:08 PM
Nobody cares if you make fun of Canada's politics. Not because you are Canadian, but because it's Canada.

I find this incredibly offensive.


Not :smallbiggrin:. And even if I did, I'm sure I'd apologize to you.

I am a huge patriot, for the record, I don't really think there are many better places in the world to live, but every place has it's poor aspects. I don't think that people like Tengu should necessarily look up to us any less, though. I love my country so much that I'm not afraid to point out when it has failings, because pointing that stuff out is the only way to make it better.

But I think we should leave this to PMs (that's private messages, not Prime Ministers) from here on out.

Edit: Just to be totally, totally clear, I did NOT find the above quote offensive. At all.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-12-19, 04:20 PM
They're so polite. It's adorable.

Ahem.

(Incidentally, I love Canada and plan to retire there, assuming it remains largely unchanged in the next forty-fifty years. It's a beautiful and pleasant nation).

So what was this thread about again? Haruhi Suzumiya and pie or something?

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-19, 04:23 PM
I think this was a practical example of entropy.

Tengu
2007-12-19, 04:27 PM
You're thinking about decay. It would have been entropy if tiny pieces of "4th Edition will be more Anime-like" would've been floating everywhere around now.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-19, 04:34 PM
No, 'twas entropy. There's no Decay Shield spell, but there is an Entropy Shield, which some of have cast on us.

Tengu
2007-12-19, 04:38 PM
So it's a spell that protects you from being turned into tiny pieces, scattered around evenly? Nifty. Either that, or they just preferred a cool name for a spell to a precise one. Which is completely understandable (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool), by the way.

Cthulhu
2007-12-19, 06:00 PM
Personally I think Tolkien would make a fine D&D gam in some sort of low magic world.

Characters: Aragon, Gimli, Legolas, Boromir & Gandalf <-- Part time players.

Gandalf never really actually does much in the way of magic, I mean when he solos the balrog he just collapses a bridge they are both standing on and then gets a DM fiat ressurection, spends an another entire book in jail, and never does much in the mean time. D&D wizards flip out summon huge monsters, polymorph into other huge monsters and then kill everything, all thuings gandalf never does, but he does stab someone with a sword, so I guess he's a wizard/fighter multi class.

Aragorn is some sort of badass ranger who gets a magic sword for the last act, legolas is another badass ranger who went bows instead of two weapon fighting, gimli and boromir are warriors.

They all intially start out playing a D&Dized version of lemmings as they herd the hobbits around, then gandalf sacrifices himself as he takes a job in another state for a while, then they kill a ****load of orcs, gandalfs player comes back with a DM ex machina res, then the enage in some polticial machinations, then gandalfs player goes interstate again, then the players bust out in the defense of the castle in the mass battle scene, then gandalf comes back from holidays after the players met the win conditions etc.

It would work okay for me? Maybe its not brilliant, but could be cool.

VeisuItaTyhjyys
2007-12-19, 07:02 PM
Clearly, you haven't been on the internet very long.

This internet, I hear it is serious bizness?

Wordmiser
2007-12-19, 07:09 PM
I don't think the trend is so much toward Anime styles as it is toward video game styles. This isn't something to be sneered upon, if anything, it's a trend that should be embraced.

MMORPGs are directly comprable to D&D, whether it's an appealing notion or not, and both to strive toward the same goals--to create varied and equally useful members of (usually) combat-oriented groups. If a MMORPG does something right and a tabletop RPG adopts it (in this case, it's most likely recharge times, which aren't such a bad mechanic at all) so much the better. It's an improvement for D&D as a game (though it might not sit well with players who are sentimentally attached to mechanics of prior editions).

--And the notion that 4E will "stink" of anime--where did that come from? Is it the flavor assigned to ToB? The fact that heroes will be stronger than the commonfolk around them (which, as has been said before, is common in almost all Western fiction and mythology)? Something else?

Tengu
2007-12-19, 08:00 PM
Stink? :smallmad: It's not wise to ditch all the achievements of Japanese cartoon cinematography, you know. As already mentioned, anime is not a genre, it's just a general style of drawing people with big eyes.

Wordmiser
2007-12-19, 08:27 PM
Stink? It's not wise to ditch all the achievements of Japanese cartoon cinematography, you know. As already mentioned, anime is not a genre, it's just a general style of drawing people with big eyes. True. I suppose I should have quotation-marked "stink" to indicate that the people who use this as an argument against the use of the [still entirely unknown] 4E system tend to dislike the genre itself.

Tengu
2007-12-19, 09:33 PM
True. I suppose I should have quotation-marked "stink" to indicate that the people who use this as an argument against the use of the [still entirely unknown] 4E system tend to dislike the genre itself.

Ah, I see. No problem then.

Alternatively, various anime are like cheese brands - some taste great, some are okay, though some are pretty crappy... but they all stink.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-19, 09:36 PM
This always got me wondering. Western works and eastern have always been treated like INCREDIBLY different worlds. I wonder what would happen if someone made a mangaesque western comic, or a series with western animation and animeish plot.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-12-20, 01:26 AM
A Western-style cartoon in Japan would be very unlikely, as one of the key things about the anime industry is that it's extremely insular: I have not found a show made in the last fifteen years that wasn't either rife with references and tongue-in-cheek use of traditional tropes, or an out-and-out deconstruction of a particular genre. Even The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya, which we were going on about earlier, basically watches like an American school sitcom, and yet still primarily exists to affectionately mock the trappings of anime. Lucky Star, by the same company, apparently works the same way with cheaper animation and no overarching plot. There's just no room for it to "be American".

If you want to see an animesque western show, however, look no further than Avatar the Last Airbender (which mainly borrows the art style and some of the tropes) or Firefly (Girl in a Box. 'Nuff said.)

Smight
2007-12-20, 04:36 AM
This always got me wondering. Western works and eastern have always been treated like INCREDIBLY different worlds. I wonder what would happen if someone made a mangaesque western comic, or a series with western animation and animeish plot.

western as in cowboy or style of animation?
for style, when east and west colide you get something like this

"Domo kotsu uru mamoru yo, Teen Titans"...

kamikasei
2007-12-20, 08:39 AM
for style, when east and west colide you get something like this

"Domo kotsu uru mamoru yo, Teen Titans"...

That's more a western Saturday morning cartoon coupled with pseudo-anime animation. (Which isn't a bad thing, but not what Azerian asked about.)

Mr. Friendly
2007-12-20, 08:56 AM
I loved Teen Titans.

Not only was it an excellent re-interpretation of the Titan saga, I really liked the animation. The hybrid of Western and Anime gave it a fresh and unique look, plus I have always liked the Anime tradition of showing emotional reactions. (I don't know what the words are for it, I'm not an anime person, I just watch anime as I come across it; but like where someone gets swirly eyes or the little sweat/tear drop when embarassed)

Tengu
2007-12-20, 10:12 AM
By the way, TV Tropes has the definition, as well as a list of the shows (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Animesque) that are western but anime-like. Ah, TV Tropes, the geek's Wikipedia. Strangely enough, I've never seen any of these shows. Not even Avatar.

Dairun Cates
2007-12-20, 03:34 PM
By the way, TV Tropes has the definition, as well as a list of the shows (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Animesque) that are western but anime-like. Ah, TV Tropes, the geek's Wikipedia. Strangely enough, I've never seen any of these shows. Not even Avatar.

Not even Megas XLR, Boondocks, or Teen Titans? What kind of coma did you just come out of?

Nerd-o-rama
2007-12-20, 06:03 PM
By the way, TV Tropes has the definition, as well as a list of the shows (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Animesque) that are western but anime-like. Ah, TV Tropes, the geek's Wikipedia. Strangely enough, I've never seen any of these shows. Not even Avatar.
What.

Go watch it. Now.

Tengu
2007-12-21, 03:36 AM
Not even Megas XLR, Boondocks, or Teen Titans? What kind of coma did you just come out of?

I've been living in a monastery for the past 10 years. Hey, at least I knew Aeris dies before I played FF7! I know someone on the board didn't, and was depressed when that happened.

Actually, no. I'm just living in Poland. TV really sucks here. I didn't watch any anime apart from Dragonball before I got internet, for example.

Attilargh
2007-12-21, 08:35 AM
What.

Go watch it. Now.
Seconded. Double-time, mister, you don't know what you're missing!

bluish_wolf
2007-12-21, 09:19 AM
I loved Teen Titans.

Not only was it an excellent re-interpretation of the Titan saga, I really liked the animation. The hybrid of Western and Anime gave it a fresh and unique look, plus I have always liked the Anime tradition of showing emotional reactions. (I don't know what the words are for it, I'm not an anime person, I just watch anime as I come across it; but like where someone gets swirly eyes or the little sweat/tear drop when embarassed)

"A visual gag."


Seconded. Double-time, mister, you don't know what you're missing!

If it's really that good, I may watch the first couple episodes or so. If I get around to it. I still have to finish the second season of Zero no Tsukaima and am behind in Higurashi as well.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-21, 09:53 AM
Well, I've seen quite a few of those shows, but I was thinking of something a bit...let's say, more complex, which was a better fuse (BTW, Western does not only mean American. Much like in Rock 'n Roll, in Literature, The British usually do it a bit better, and Germany has sprouted some pretty good books form what I've seen). Seems like it's still on the to-do list.

PS: The TT series, if you read some of the better TT comics, almost inspires pity. I mean it, the plot is too lacking.

Mr. Friendly
2007-12-21, 10:02 AM
Well, I've seen quite a few of those shows, but I was thinking of something a bit...let's say, more complex, which was a better fuse (BTW, Western does not only mean American. Much like in Rock 'n Roll, in Literature, The British usually do it a bit better, and Germany has sprouted some pretty good books form what I've seen). Seems like it's still on the to-do list.

PS: The TT series, if you read some of the better TT comics, almost inspires pity. I mean it, the plot is too lacking.

Well not to derail this into TT series vs. the Comics, I still stand by the series. I thought it was done pretty nicely, especially some of the later ones with their battles against The Brain and his crew. No mistaking it though, it was a kids show. Still, I thought it was spiffy. I also liked Xiolin Showdown. :smalleek:

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-21, 10:05 AM
I liked it too. But that's the point of my question, how would an adult western plotline (A non comical one) work with anime or manga, or the other way round.

Tengu
2007-12-21, 10:18 AM
I liked it too. But that's the point of my question, how would an adult western plotline (A non comical one) work with anime or manga, or the other way round.

Since plotlines are more universal than people usually think - very good, I'd guess. Jin-Roth: Company of Wolves or Perfect Blue, for example, would work as well as western life action movies and you couldn't see a difference (except that both take place in Japan).

And I'll probably see Avatar, after I finish watching Full Metal Panic and Hogfather.

kamikasei
2007-12-21, 10:20 AM
I liked it too. But that's the point of my question, how would an adult western plotline (A non comical one) work with anime or manga, or the other way round.

Try Gankutsuou - "The Count of Monte Cristo" as a sci-fi anime. Visually gorgeous. Pretty damn solid as a story, too.

[spoiler]I felt the ending was weak, but only towards the very end. Up to that point it was excellent.[/quote]

You've got to watch it subtitled, though, for the Count's Japanese voice actor.

Artanis
2007-12-21, 12:18 PM
If it's really that good, I may watch the first couple episodes or so. If I get around to it. I still have to finish the second season of Zero no Tsukaima and am behind in Higurashi as well.
Avatar definitely is that good. It takes a lot of the good things about anime and a lot of the good things about western shows and blends them together, and adds some goodness that isn't often found in either. It also has some of the best fight choreography I've ever seen in a TV show.