Yoda vs Sauron

[Zenos]

So, let us say a hypothetical battle between Jedi Master Yoda and Dark Lord Sauron, let's suppose Sauron has an unbreakable mace (jsut so he can parry) in a duel in the mines of Moria, who would win?

[Ossian]

Sauron is SO dead...

[Telonius]

Yoda gets his little green butt handed to him. He can't even foresee a Sith Lord plotting the demise of the Republic from two offices down the hall. How's he going to fight a shape-shifting, all-seeing demigod?

[Lyesmith]

Yoda gets his little green butt handed to him. He can't even foresee a Sith Lord plotting the demise of the Republic from two offices down the hall. How's he going to fight a shape-shifting, all-seeing demigod?

With a lightsaber.
Duh.

[Telonius]

Sauron: Ah, a lightsaber. I surrender.
Yoda: Huh? Confused I am.
Sauron: Yes, I surrender. Now, take me back to prison. I promise not to turn the guards and the Prime Minister against you.
Yoda: About this, a bad feeling I have.

[Vectner]

Sauron is a demi-god, yoda is a jedi. Hmm, I think Sauron would win. But the real quesion would be who would win in Chuck Norris vs. Sauron?

[Lyesmith]

Granny Weatherwax!
She's even mightier than Chuck Norris.

[GoC]

Sauron is SO dead...

Agreed.
Especialy if it's the cartoon version.

[Lyesmith]

There was a Cartoon?

[Selrahc]

Yeah. Clone Wars.

Jedi are even more uber than normally presented. But its not really canon(In universe, the entire thing was a propaganda cartoon produced by the republic)

[EvilElitest]

Sauron: Ah, a lightsaber. I surrender.
Yoda: Huh? Confused I am.
Sauron: Yes, I surrender. Now, take me back to prison. I promise not to turn the guards and the Prime Minister against you.
Yoda: About this, a bad feeling I have.

wow, reminds me of a post on the Lk vs. Sauron thread

based on this


Within three years he had the exclusive ear of the King of Numenor. For somebody who was hauled there as a captive, this shows a remarkable ability to talk. He then turns the King (Ar-Pharazon to be precise) to worshipping Melkor. This spreads throughout most of Numenor, with the exception of the House of Elendil. There's some definate corruption going on here, I know it...


and my response


just to play off of this'
King of the high men-i shall go and demand Sauron surrenders
elrond-there is no were sauron would surrender
Sauron-i surrender
Elrond-oh, i totally didn't see that coming, dude i must be a trap
King- Oh come on, he is the king of evil and he is surrendering? He must of finally figured out that he is uselss to the power of love and puppies
Elrond- well, just be careful
King-oh he is the king of all evil, there is not way i'll trust him
Elrond- alright, well i'll come up and check on you in three years
King-yes mother
Elrond- just don't let him talk his way out of prison
King- Oh yeah, like i'd allow the embodyment of evil out of prison
(three years later)
Elrond- hey dude, how is it hanging
King- hey Elrond, you are not ghetto, never talk that way again. Anyways things are cool
Elrond- everything's cool?
King- pretty much
Elrond- nothing out of the ordinary in the least
King- not realy, everything is totally ok
Elrond- ok, i just came up to check up on sauron to make sure that he was still in prison
king- Sauron? Oh him, he is gone
Elrdon- he escaped
King- hell no, i made him my chief adviser
Elrond-WTF?
King-well we had a public trial, and he was put onto the stand. Within five min he had convinced us that he shouldn't be in prison. In ten he convinced us that he was totally innocent of the crimes he confessed to and he was the perfect person to trust running the country. In half an hour he was my chief advister, in 40 mins we were all worshiping Morgoth, and he had become my high priest and convinced me that defying the gods and sacerficing humans was A-ok.
Elrond- Are you high or just stupid
King- I assure, i am not high
Sauron- No, i'm just that good baby
Elrond- you won't get away with this
Sauron- right, well let me allow one of my servents to respond, bob
Bob- I am the middle finger of sauron
Elrond-???
Sauron-give him the message
Bob- #$%% you B#%ch. I'm running this town now
Elrond- dear god, i have lost the will life
Sauron- now go home and cry to all you little elvish friends, loser. Oh and you look awful in purple
Elrond- I hope your defeated by a deformed midgit
Sauron-right, like that would ever happen
(a few years later)
Sauron-well the king is dead, i'm in charge, the gods are in despair, and i have the greatest humans on earth working for me, and i have just made the song Jingle bells illegal, so all is good
(valar drop a contient on him)
Sauron- wow, didn't see that coming

also, lightsabers burn right? And Sauron is a fire being right? Anyone see were i'm going with this?
from,
EE

[Winterwind]

My humble opinion: Yoda tears the movie version Sauron to shreds just about as effortlessly as book version Sauron does the same to Yoda.

A somewhat oversized guy in plate armour does not stand up to the power of a swift and mighty Jedi Master, and neither does the latter stand up to the power of a living god.

[Ganurath]

Yoda wins, because Yoda is better than a human king in every way and a human king was able to take down Sauron.

[Winterwind]

Yoda wins, because Yoda is better than a human king in every way and a human king was able to take down Sauron....in the movie.

Also, that's Numenorian king (okay, technically, not quite, but sort of). Yoda is still better, but the gap has just grown significantly smaller.

[Mr. Mud]

Amen to that Winter. Yoda a SuPeRiOr intellect, not to mention the force and a nifty little light saber. Against what? Sauron's InFeRrIoR Intellect?

Human King vs. Jedi King, Jedi win :smallbiggrin:

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Sauron assumes spirit form and subsequently posesses every single friend of Yoda's, turning them against him one by one.

It doesn't matter that Yoda might be able to defeat the (movie vestion of) Sauron. Sauron is immortal and he doesn't need a body to live.

[dehro]

Sauron: Ah, a lightsaber. I surrender.
Yoda: Huh? Confused I am.
Sauron: Yes, I surrender. Now, take me back to prison. I promise not to turn the guards and the Prime Minister against you.
Yoda: About this, a bad feeling I have.

very funny... but still Yoda..for he has a sense of humour...

no, really it's because
I like him more

[Talkkno]

I'm going to have give this to Yoda, mere Jedi trainees have forced pushed at least a dozen Star Destroyers(Though one of them died.) Lesser Jedi have stripped the force from people's bodies, and I pretty sure that is enough to KO Sauron's spirit, as we all remember the Force
""The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us, penetrates us, and binds the galaxy together."
Which has enough power to make destroying a planet million times over seem like nothing. And some Jedi in KOTR saw Fett's death by Mace Windu flawlessly, even though that was a couple thousand years in future. The Jedi were weakened during the Clone Wars and the years before becuase the ROTS novelisation states Paplatine was creating a "shroud" of sorts, weakening there powers. Darth Nihilus could suck out entire planet's worth of life force and he is weaker then Paplatine by a decent margin and he could also, with some help, create supernovas.

[Haruki-kun]

I think Sauron wins. I don't know why, I just don't see it happening for Yoda to win this one.

[mregecko]

Tom Bombadil comes in

Everyone goes "wtf?"

Heads asplode.

[Emperor Ing]

Yoda has great skills with the lightsaber first off, so while Sauron can parry the lightsaber with his mace on the first attack, yoda will already be moving into his second, and third attack
And not to mention Sauron has no weapons against the Force.

[Telonius]

Except that Sauron isn't exactly a "living thing." He helped create the universe, and existed before it. I doubt The Force would have much of an effect on him.

[GoC]

Except that Sauron isn't exactly a "living thing." He helped create the universe, and existed before it.

Actualy that's Melkor.
Sauron is the same type of being as Gandalf.

[TheElfLord]

The Mair also existed pre creation.

As mentioned above, Yoda was oblivious to Palpatine's work to overthrow the government, I don't know how anyone thinks he is a match for Saron.

[Emperor Ing]

What people dont understand, is how Sauron was killed, by simply slicing off the finger that has the One Ring on it. Yoda doesnt have such a weakness

And what can a flaming eye do? Stare at you to death? :smallamused:

[Niun]

Sauron is only killed by loosing his finger in the movies, so if we are using the book Sauron, go right ahead and slice a finger or two off, he won't mind.

And, if Sauron is in his flaming eye form from the movie, how's Yoda going to to beat him?

[Selrahc]

And, if Sauron is in his flaming eye form from the movie, how's Yoda going to to beat him?

Staring contest.:smallwink:

[Seraph]

Granny Weatherwax!
She's even mightier than Chuck Norris.


Bah, Norris is a tool who owes everything to This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Lee) man. Yeah, that's right. Lee isn't dead, he's just waiting for Norris to get cocky.

[Ossian]

The duel isn't about who would rule middle earth, but who would survive if the two were locked ina romm and only one could leave alive.
Sauron was dispatched by a band of awesome epic heroes, but still within the realm of "you can see them move". Magic weapons made of metal, no 50 foot leaps, no precognition. He was killed by Isildur only in the movie though

Isildur: haaaaa [swings the shard of Narsil, severes three fingers off sauron's hand]...woooooooooot! I made it!

Sauron: MUTH.........R!!!! [shouts with pain, bends, collects his fingers, the ring, squishes Isildur with a stroke of his mace]

As far as ending lives go, Yoda is no match for anyone who isn't as Force Sensitive like him and isn't wielding a Lightsaber. Maybe the fight isn't as easy as I am making it sound, but I'll bet on Kermit the Jedi.
Sauron (from the books) might count on some fiery attack, but no soul shattering.

In SW there are no Gods, and the only religion is "The Force" (but no jedi would call it as such), and their are the best Religion users ever spawned. So, godliness-wise, the gap is almost filled....

O.

[Emperor Ing]

Lets evaluate:
Sauron: 2 possibilities
A massive flaming eye on a large tower
An ultrapowerful warrior with a wierd weakness

Yoda:
Short, old, but VERY AGILE Jedi Master

Note: Sauron is assumed to be the ultrapowerful warrior:
I would believe that a Lightsaber is a lot lighter weapon than a Mace, so in terms of attack quickness, Yoda Wins
In terms of power, that mace was seen sending groups of soldiers flying, while the lightsaber slices through almost everything (key word, ALMOST), so because of the "sends groups of soldiers flying" part, Sauron wins
Abilities, well, Im not sure of Sauron's powers, but yoda's force powers are very well known, but due to lack of knowledge, I cant give a fair judgement. :smallconfused:

[Laurellien]

Sauron would lose, because he ain't cool.

[TheElfLord]

Staring contest.:smallwink:

Saron is the liddless eye, he can't blink, ergo he wins :)

Saron doesn't have to hit, or even see Yoda to kill him in a one on one fight. Gil-galad was burned to death by the heat of Saron's body. Getting too close to him is fatal.

[GoC]

The Mair also existed pre creation.

As mentioned above, Yoda was oblivious to Palpatine's work to overthrow the government, I don't know how anyone thinks he is a match for Saron.

What's that have to do with it? This is a locked room battle.

The Randomizer: How would Sauron ever even hit Yoda?
Yoda can easily hit him and a few lightsabre hits will leave Sauron limbless.

TheElfLord: This is contradicted multiple times in both the books and the films.

[lipe44]

TheElfLord: This is contradicted multiple times in both the books and the films.

Wait? Where its contradicted? Ive read LOTR and Silmarillion, LOTR does no mention about them and Simarillion clearly states that they existed before the world began.

And why you keep taking Sauron at a weakened state? He can shapeshift, he can turn ethereal, he can use magic, How come Yoda can win?

[DraPrime]

Wait? Where its contradicted? Ive read LOTR and Silmarillion, LOTR does no mention about them and Simarillion clearly states that they existed before the world began.

And why you keep taking Sauron at a weakened state? He can shapeshift, he can turn ethereal, he can use magic, How come Yoda can win?

Because Yoda is harder to kill than Sauron is. Yoda has a hell of a lot more speed than Sauron. Have you seen Attack of the Clones? As crappy as it was, it showed how ridiculously awesome Yoda is in a fight. And Yoda is very good with his force powers, which could very well trump Sauron's magic.

[kpenguin]

Sauron... waits.

Yoda dies of old age.

[GoC]

Wait? Where its contradicted? Ive read LOTR and Silmarillion, LOTR does no mention about them and Simarillion clearly states that they existed before the world began.
:smallconfused:
The post I was responding to:

Saron is the liddless eye, he can't blink, ergo he wins :)

Saron doesn't have to hit, or even see Yoda to kill him in a one on one fight. Gil-galad was burned to death by the heat of Saron's body. Getting too close to him is fatal.


And why you keep taking Sauron at a weakened state? He can shapeshift, he can turn ethereal, he can use magic, How come Yoda can win?
Great, now we have to argue endlessly about wether or not lightsabers affect ethereal creatures before finaly deciding there isn't enough information.:smallannoyed:

[TheLogman]

Actually, Yoda is immortal, he just died because his Force (The only thing keeping him going) was being destroyed by the presence of two Dark Sith.

[EvilElitest]

Except that Sauron isn't exactly a "living thing." He helped create the universe, and existed before it. I doubt The Force would have much of an effect on him.
Yoda- by the power of the force i destroy you
Sauron- The force
Yoda- the energy field that
Sauron- oh yeah i know that, i helped make it
Yoda- WTF?
Sauron- Yeah, i'm co founder of the dark side of the force
Yoda- really?
Sauron- yeah here is my card
yoda- "Badass B**ch, yeah"
Sauron- what can i say
Yoda- yeah this is awkard
Sauron- i would imagine
Yoda- well by the power of being smaller than a hobbit, i destroy you
Sauron-noooooooo, short people, my mortal enemy


Actualy that's Melkor.
Sauron is the same type of being as Gandalf.
No that is Saurman, Sauron was the second greatest evil in the world and greatest of the Maiar the lesser gods


Bah, Norris is a tool who owes everything to This man. Yeah, that's right. Lee isn't dead, he's just waiting for Norris to get cocky.
I love you, i've been wanting to say so for ages

from,
EE

[warty goblin]

Yoda- by the power of the force i destroy you
Sauron- The force
Yoda- the energy field that
Sauron- oh yeah i know that, i helped make it
Yoda- WTF?
Sauron- Yeah, i'm co founder of the dark side of the force
Yoda- really?
Sauron- yeah here is my card
yoda- "Badass B**ch, yeah"
Sauron- what can i say
Yoda- yeah this is awkard
Sauron- i would imagine
Yoda- well by the power of being smaller than a hobbit, i destroy you
Sauron-noooooooo, short people, my mortal enemy

No that is Saurman, Sauron was the second greatest evil in the world and greatest of the Maiar the lesser gods


from,
EE

Hilarious. I love it.
*drools helplessly on keyboard*

[EvilElitest]

Hilarious. I love it.
*drools helplessly on keyboard*

Thank you, thank you, i work on vs. thread monday-saterday, while i spend sunday kicking puppies
from
EE

[GoC]

No that is Saurman, Sauron was the second greatest evil in the world and greatest of the Maiar the lesser gods

Saurman, Sauron and Gandalf are all Maiar.
So, I'm right.:smalltongue:

[EvilElitest]

Saurman, Sauron and Gandalf are all Maiar.
So, I'm right.:smalltongue:

well they all helped create the world so yeah
from,
EE

[GoC]

well they all helped create the world so yeah
from,
EE

"Helped create the world"?
IIRC Illuviator and the valar created it.
And then the Valar created the Maiar.
Right?

[Anteros]

Yoda got beaten up by an old politician dude, I'm going to have to go with Sauron. Besides, Sauron's big power is corrupting people to serve his ends...Jedi's big weakness is being corruptable.

[EvilElitest]

"Helped create the world"?
IIRC Illuviator and the valar created it.
And then the Valar created the Maiar.
Right?

NO Illuviator created the Valar and the Maiar, who were just lesser version of teh Valar. As the Valar begane to sing the song of creation, Morgoth started to sing his own tune, and along with him came Sauron, Gothmog, and other evil beings, and so all they evil in creation came about. But illuviator warped the evil songs and joined it with his own and thus the world was created
from,
EE

[Ossian]

Yoda got beaten up by an old politician dude, I'm going to have to go with Sauron. Besides, Sauron's big power is corrupting people to serve his ends...Jedi's big weakness is being corruptable.

Palpatine was a Sith Lord, arguably the most powerful, but undoubtedly the smartest to ever live. As old as he was, he was still 840 years younger than Yoda. He didn't exactly beat up Yoda. It was a tough battle, and it was decided at the very last dice roll. Had it been a locked room battle (i.e. no clone troopers swarming the senate seconds after Yoda fell from one of the seats) the outcome MIGHT have been different.

O.

[Oslecamo]

Palpatine was a Sith Lord, arguably the most powerful, but undoubtedly the smartest to ever live. As old as he was, he was still 840 years younger than Yoda. He didn't exactly beat up Yoda. It was a tough battle, and it was decided at the very last dice roll. Had it been a locked room battle (i.e. no clone troopers swarming the senate seconds after Yoda fell from one of the seats) the outcome MIGHT have been different.

O.

Well it's all Yoda's fault for having a bigger stick up his ass than a paladin.

"Using my small size to sneack and Palpatin's throat during his sleep could I...Naaaahhhhh. Or greatly increasing my chances of sucess by attacking togheter with Obi-Wan-Kenobi...Naaaaahhhhh. The force demands that I fail so countless more wll die."


He should have seeked the higher ground:P

[lipe44]

:smallconfused:
Your most recent post:



Great, now we have to argue endlessly about wether or not lightsabers affect ethereal creatures before finaly deciding there isn't enough information.:smallannoyed:

You do realise that i didnt posted that, right? [Scrubbed]

[Vaire]

Y'all are arguing about two superbeings from two very different worlds. What's worse, Yoda is from a universe that has so many contradictions and holes in it that no one can ever agree about what should or should not be able to happen. Sauron is from a universe that was well thought out and well planned. You'll never be able to make the two mesh. And I'm not sure it should be tried. Yoda belongs in a world of moral relativism. Balance in the force is everything. Yin and Yang. In the world of Tolkein evil is not opposite and equal to good, but inferior.

[TheElfLord]

TheElfLord: This is contradicted multiple times in both the books and the films.

While the film shouldn't be used for any true comparasons, I'm curious to how you think this is contradicted in the books. Is there a part of LotR that states that Gil-galad did not die by the head of Saron's body?

[Ditto]

The OP said it was a one-on-one duel. Sauron is no match for Yoda’s – or any Jedi’s – speed in close quarters. Sure, he’s apparently kickass at melee, but he’s ten feet tall swinging a mace (in long, heavy strokes!) against a two-foot tall ball of flying weightless sword. If Yoda were to get hit, he’d go squish, but that’s true of dropping a boulder on him too. Doesn’t mean it’s a practical possibility. Sauron in physical form in a duel would unquestionably lose.

The fact that Yoda couldn’t see Palpatine’s machinations doesn’t mean he’s weak… and if Jedi can suck the Force out of people and *planets*, then Sauron is fair game. Not that Yoda really has that trick in his arsenal, but in principle it should function. If you’re not a robot or dirt (or a freaking Yuuzhan Vong), there’s Force going on in you.

EDIT: The heat of Sauron’s body, darn… it’s not like the Jedi have some Force coolant power. Seriously, the Jedi are almost as bad as Batman when it comes to widget effects.

[Fay Graydon]

I'm sorry, but in my opinon. this fight is realy one sided.

Sauron is in full armour yes?
Yoda uses the force to slam Sauron into the ground before pushing him down a crevas, then Yoda uses the force to close the crevas and melts the rock so that Sauron stays there.
then every hundrend years or so Yoda visits Sauron to ask him this question:
"Had enough you have, Hmmmm?"

Plus, Yoda is Insanly fast!
In Star Wars Battlefront 2, my friends and I gave Yoda the nickname 'Little Green Snot' because he was so irritatingly fast!

[GoC]

While the film shouldn't be used for any true comparasons, I'm curious to how you think this is contradicted in the books. Is there a part of LotR that states that Gil-galad did not die by the head of Saron's body?

Not Gil-Gad but the guy who killed Sauron and cut off his finger? His name began with 'I' I think.

[Zenos]

Not Gil-Gad but the guy who killed Sauron and cut off his finger? His name began with 'I' I think.

You mean Isildur?

[GoC]

You mean Isildur?

Yeah him.
He was human, right?

[Zenos]

Yeah, kindof, he's human, but his family has a little elf blood in it, if I remember right.

[GoC]

Yeah, kindof, he's human, but his family has a little elf blood in it, if I remember right.

And Gil-gad is pure elf, right?

[Zenos]

And Gil-gad is pure elf, right?

I think Gil-Galad was pure elf.

[lipe44]

Not Gil-Gad but the guy who killed Sauron and cut off his finger? His name began with 'I' I think.

Just so you know, in the books it says that Isildur cut off his finger AND it says that anyone who gets close to Sauron will die because of his heat... So i presume he didnt just attacked like in movies, also i really dont have idea where they took the armoured Sauron from...

[TheElfLord]

Not Gil-Gad but the guy who killed Sauron and cut off his finger? His name began with 'I' I think.

It is true that not everyone dies when they come within a certian distance of Saron. The ability may not be continuous, such as a once a day or once and hour power. One use is enough to kill the High King of the Noldor. Saron may not have thought Isildur enough of a threat to burn him up. Against a single powerful opponent, Saron would surely use his heat abilities.

[Emperor Ing]

It is true that not everyone dies when they come within a certian distance of Saron. The ability may not be continuous, such as a once a day or once and hour power. One use is enough to kill the High King of the Noldor. Saron may not have thought Isildur enough of a threat to burn him up. Against a single powerful opponent, Saron would surely use his heat abilities.

Maybe its a...fiery stare? God power? :smallconfused:

[GoC]

Just so you know, in the books it says that Isildur cut off his finger AND it says that anyone who gets close to Sauron will die because of his heat... So i presume he didnt just attacked like in movies, also i really dont have idea where they took the armoured Sauron from...

What did they do then?
Shoot him full of arrows?

[Ossian]

Well, forget the movie, just to begin with. As stated multiple times, what you see in the new line film is just a cheap shot from Isildur. In the books, they cut the finger off Sauron's DEAD body, that is, after he had already lost the fight to the Dream Team of Gil Galad (with Ice spear), Elendil, Isildur, and possibly a bunch of other monsters of the Elven League. Call it the "Play Off" of 2nd Age.

While Sauron has a high mastery over fire, and seems immune to stuff like lava, it does not come at no cost. For example, he had already cast down the shape of the beautiful Annatar when he forged the 1 Ring waist deep in the lava of Mount Doom (but we don't actually know if he was just withstanding the heat of the volcano or plain bathing in the lava). Granted, as a Maia he has many immunities, but it is also true that in Middle Earth there are many different kinds of fire. I wouldn't be surprised if he walked through a wall of flames unscathed, but I do think it beyond his power to do so through a great dragon's fire. He might manage, but at the cost of an effort (how great this is debatable). So, all of his heat prowess does not look like a shield enough for a Lighsaber, since "enchanted" weapons could still kill him. The high energy blade is more of a cutting surface than a scorcher.

Corruption and lure of the Dark Side? Hmm..while this is a closed cage match I'd still say that of all the Jedis that ever lived the masterest master ever isn't a good choice to show Sauron's ability to tempt mortals.

But then again, while I seem to be leaning towards Yoda, on a second thought this would not be so simple for the diminutive Master. Sauron is a being of great power, and one that does not fear anything on Middle Earth lest he gets charged by a bunch of fire dragons. His Fire-Aura isn't really described so that we can use it, but it's still there. I suspect that if he really had to tap into the last once of power, he'd be more than just a force to be reckoned with. Massive Fear waves, Massive Evilness Waves, Massive Flame Waves, spirit shattering darkside bursts, and a couple of swings of his weapon (who said it has to be that anchor!) can really oush Yoda to the limit.

O.

[Talkkno]

It is true that not everyone dies when they come within a certian distance of Saron. The ability may not be continuous, such as a once a day or once and hour power. One use is enough to kill the High King of the Noldor. Saron may not have thought Isildur enough of a threat to burn him up. Against a single powerful opponent, Saron would surely use his heat abilities.
I'm not sure that will be that effective, consriding that Twi'lik(sp?) Jedi Knight in ROTS was jutted with a lot more then one blaster shot with a heavy blaster rifle, which according the AOTC ICS has the enough energy to put a 1 meter hole in something like a mix of concrete and durasteel. Which is about 1 ton of TNT of energy.
Also in Dark Force Rising of the Thrawn trilogy, Jedi master Jorru's C Boath gets hit by a low level blast from Luke's X wing starfighter and it only knocks him unconscious, consider that they have to be at least the Kiloton level, as the hulls of a outdated troop transport is noted in the Clone Wars ICS to shrug off megatons without it even scratching its hull.

[Azukius]

Rule 1) Do not act incautiously when confronted with old, wrinkly, (green,) men.