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Prometheus
2007-12-18, 06:57 PM
Normally I hate these kinds of "balance" threads but I kind of need to know. I'm running a campaign based on CORE 3.5 books, version 3 Class books (Sword & Fist etc), spell compendium, and Arms & Equipment.

I thinking about adding the Tome of Battle, which will quite obviously introduce much more powerful melee classes. While none of the PCs are Fighters that would feel like they wasted their time, I want to know if introducing NPCs from the Tome of Battle will crush them. I know spellcasters are considered overpowered, but no one really powergames.

8th level "Vampire Spawn" Sorcerer - Has all the special attack, qualities, and weaknesses of a vampire spawn, without the ability score adjustments. Is mostly concerned with direct damage, scorching ray and fireball, and isn't the type to power-game heavily.
5th level Rogue/ 3rd level Wizard - On her way to a Arcane Trickster or Shadow Dancer or Arcane Archer build, she will shoot ineffectually from a distance or gets off sneak attacks with her persistent blade spell.
8th level Cleric - Spends the most of his actions acting as a tank and taking advantage of his high AC (~25). He positions himself to absorb attacks and heal those who fall into danger. Considering taking martial weapon proficiency next level.
Usually they have another companion who travels with them: a Thief-Acrobat, Half Giant Psychic Warrior, Bard, Monk with Rage, or Barbarian/Rogue/Streetfighter.

Is it fair to introduce a swordsage or warblade without telling them the mechanics of manuevers and stances?
Would the more powerful melee classes be able to get over or around the Cleric's tank strategy?
Would any of the classes make an appropriate multiclass for the Rogue or the Cleric?

ZeroNumerous
2007-12-18, 07:02 PM
If you build a Warblade even remotely well, it would disassemble, methodically and without pause, the Sorcerer and Wizard. The cleric could stand toe-to-toe with it, since it's the only character who could pose any real threat, given how woefully underpowered the rest of the group is.

If you do use ToB, my suggestion is to use lots of mooks rather than a single ToB BBEG who's their level or higher. The problem with ToB adversaries is that it's very, very hard to screw one up or make it significantly underpowered to match a party of similar power.

Kizara
2007-12-18, 07:05 PM
Normally I hate these kinds of "balance" threads but I kind of need to know. I'm running a campaign based on CORE 3.5 books, version 3 Class books (Sword & Fist etc), spell compendium, and Arms & Equipment.

I thinking about adding the Tome of Battle, which will quite obviously introduce much more powerful melee classes. While none of the PCs are Fighters that would feel like they wasted their time, I want to know if introducing NPCs from the Tome of Battle will crush them. I know spellcasters are considered overpowered, but no one really powergames.

8th level "Vampire Spawn" Sorcerer - Has all the special attack, qualities, and weaknesses of a vampire spawn, without the ability score adjustments. Is mostly concerned with direct damage, scorching ray and fireball, and isn't the type to power-game heavily.
5th level Rogue/ 3rd level Wizard - On her way to a Arcane Trickster or Shadow Dancer or Arcane Archer build, she will shoot ineffectually from a distance or gets off sneak attacks with her persistent blade spell.
8th level Cleric - Spends the most of his actions acting as a tank and taking advantage of his high AC. He positions himself to absorb attacks and heal those who fall into danger. Considering taking martial weapon proficiency next level.
Occasionally they also have a Thief-Acrobat, Half Giant Psychic Warrior, or Bard traveling with them.

Is it fair to introduce a swordsage or warblade without telling them the mechanics of manuevers and stances?
Would the more powerful melee classes be able to get over or around the Cleric's tank strategy?
Would any of the classes make an appropriate multiclass for the Rogue or the Cleric?

No I dont think it would be fair, and feel that your group enjoys your more limited metagame and you should continue as you are. Don't introduce cheese to a group that has no interest in it. If anything, consider using the eariler additions to the 3.5 complete series, such as Cwarrior.

Douglas
2007-12-18, 07:05 PM
From what you've posted I would describe that party as distinctly unoptimized. ToB characters will have to be lower level than usual or deliberately handicapped with bad builds to not overwhelm them. It's not that ToB is overpowered (imo), but ToB characters tend to be fairly well optimized out of the box while other characters have to put in significant effort to reach the same power level, and your party has not put in that effort.

Saph
2007-12-18, 07:11 PM
ToB classes are, on average, significantly more powerful than the core melee classes - but as antagonists against a non-ToB party, they work great. Lots of surprises for the PCs, and you can read the flavour text right out of the book as they perform their maneuvers.


Is it fair to introduce a swordsage or warblade without telling them the mechanics of manuevers and stances?

Yes. As the DM, you're under no obligation to explain how the NPCs do their stuff. If the PCs want to find out in-game what their opponents are using, there's actually a specific skill, Martial Lore, in ToB that covers it. Just make sure the encounter's fun.


Would the more powerful melee classes be able to get over or around the Cleric's tank strategy?

Easily, yes. The Emerald Razor maneuver, for instance. Or they could just tumble past and clobber the spellcasters.


Would any of the classes make an appropriate multiclass for the Rogue or the Cleric?

Probably not, since it'd mean losing caster levels, unless they went for something like Ruby Knight Vindicator (for the Cleric) or Jade Phoenix Mage (for the Rogue), and both have awkward pre-requisites.

As mentioned, though, you might want to make the ToB opponents a level or two lower than them to begin with, otherwise they might easily kill a PC without you meaning to. ToB characters really take off around levels 7-9.

- Saph

Metal Head
2007-12-18, 07:19 PM
Is it fair to introduce a swordsage or warblade without telling them the mechanics of manuevers and stances?
Would the more powerful melee classes be able to get over or around the Cleric's tank strategy?
Would any of the classes make an appropriate multiclass for the Rogue or the Cleric?

It's totally fair. As a DM I use Book of Erotic Deeds Vile Darkness. None of my players have it, and I don't give them access to it. It means I always have a few unexpected tricks up my sleeve. The melee classes could easily get around the cleric's tank strategy, but it also depends on what spells the cleric has prepared. If the cleric lays down a bunch of penalties on the enemy at the start of the battle, that's going to change it first. And unless you're going for a prc, then don't multiclass.

Aquaseafoam
2007-12-18, 07:21 PM
I personally enjoy throwing crazy things at my players. They have undead crusaders and Blue Goblin Psions running around in their current dungeon. Add in the Goblin Rogues that are constantly ambushing them and the fact that any living creature that dies in this dungeon instantly raises as a zombie and my players are having to trod through hell, all the while loving every minute of it.

Dont just throw fast balls at your players, you gotta mix in a couple screw balls and curve balls. Keeps them on their toes and of the opinion that you are a good DM.

Prometheus
2007-12-18, 07:33 PM
So the basic answer that I'm getting seems to be:
-For the level, it would break apart the strategy that the party is based on unless in the form of multiple lower level combatants.
-ToB would provide little advantage or options to the PCs.
-ToB is an excellent variation in combat, as long as I can make sure it is balanced relative to the party.

Thanks a lot for the speedy and effective responses everybody. I'm satisfied with the feedback, but feel free to continue to add input if you so desire.

DraPrime
2007-12-18, 07:58 PM
It's totally fair. As a DM I use Book of Erotic Deeds Vile Darkness. None of my players have it, and I don't give them access to it. It means I always have a few unexpected tricks up my sleeve. The melee classes could easily get around the cleric's tank strategy, but it also depends on what spells the cleric has prepared. If the cleric lays down a bunch of penalties on the enemy at the start of the battle, that's going to change it first. And unless you're going for a prc, then don't multiclass.

Suddenly I don't like the fact that you're my DM.

tyckspoon
2007-12-18, 08:32 PM
Tome of Battle won't be much use to your particular party (of all the characters you mentioned, the [NPC?] Monk would probably benefit most from adopting it, even if the only thing he does is take the Superior Unarmed Strike feat.), but I second Kizara's suggestion of introducing some of the Complete series. It sounds like the sorcerer would appreciate the Reserve feats introduced in Complete Mage, for example.

Kaelik
2007-12-18, 09:17 PM
-For the level, it would break apart the strategy that the party is based on unless in the form of multiple lower level combatants.

For there level 95% of their opponents should break apart that strategy. Some of them would have to try, some would just do it on accident.

Prometheus
2007-12-18, 09:37 PM
For there level 95% of their opponents should break apart that strategy. Some of them would have to try, some would just do it on accident.
When you say opponents do you mean from the ToB or all?

Because they haven't had any real difficulty dealing with other opponents thus far. A strong singular monster is blocked by the cleric and several small opponents are easily cleared with AoE blast spells.

ZeroNumerous
2007-12-18, 09:47 PM
Because they haven't had any real difficulty dealing with other opponents thus far. A strong singular monster is blocked by the cleric and several small opponents are easily cleared with AoE blast spells.

Rogue 7/Shadowdancer 1, Druid 8, and for kicks, Sorcerer 8 shouldn't have much of a problem fighting them..

tyckspoon
2007-12-18, 10:00 PM
When you say opponents do you mean from the ToB or all?

Because they haven't had any real difficulty dealing with other opponents thus far. A strong singular monster is blocked by the cleric and several small opponents are easily cleared with AoE blast spells.

You're getting into the levels where those tactics become losing choices. Strong singular monsters are going to be able to smack the cleric easily unless he puts a lot of money and spells into getting his AC up (a brief sample of CR 8 SRD monsters: Dire Tiger, +20 to hit with claws, +14 bite. Stone Giant, +17/+12 with club or +17 full attack with two slams. Dragons.. well, trading full attacks with a dragon is a notoriously bad idea. Especially once they get Large and are doing the Bite/Claw/Claw/Wing/Wing/Tail Slap thing.) He'll hold up for a while longer if he's mostly fighting humanoid foes, but even that gets tricky: 8 levels of full BAB, a 14 Strength (low estimate there for 'strong enemy'), and +2 worth of magic bonuses to hit gives +14 chance to hit on the full BAB attack. Any higher and the enemy is getting a better than 50% chance to hit AC 25, which is not good odds for tanking.

AoEs to clear out weaker opponents is a good idea in theory, but the math often fails. Consider the CR 6 Digester; the CR system considers that a weak enemy for your group. It averages 68 hp; a Fireball cannot take that out. Even monsters around CR 4 or 5 require a lucky roll to one-shot with a Fireball spell.. and let's not forget that if you want to kill things with fire, you're fighting against the most common resistance and immunity in the game. Once again, class-leveled opponents tend to be easier here, but the fact that most hit dice are bigger than d6s and the addition of Con bonuses means that HP almost always beat out blaster damage.

Prometheus
2007-12-18, 10:04 PM
*shrugs* Apparently they perform better than expected... Druids, Clerics, Sorcerers, Rogues...even a variety of Monsters across I, II, and FF. Although their combat has been low on casters for plot reasons: their most frequent enemies have been Fighters, Barbarians, Rogues, Rangers, and Monsters.

Maybe it is the crazy antics of the Cleric, I neglected to mention that he is quite the tactician and makes good use of Darkness, Soften Earth and Stone, and Stone Shape. But he didn't use any of those on the NPCs ZeroNumerous had mentioned...

EDIT: I've given them accelerated experience rates, so theoretically their magic items should be below WBL.

Brawls
2007-12-18, 11:20 PM
Tome of Battle won't be much use to your particular party (of all the characters you mentioned, the [NPC?] Monk would probably benefit most from adopting it, even if the only thing he does is take the Superior Unarmed Strike feat.), but I second Kizara's suggestion of introducing some of the Complete series. It sounds like the sorcerer would appreciate the Reserve feats introduced in Complete Mage, for example.

Doesn't the Superior Unarmed Combat feat just give you the equivelent Monk damage progression for unarmed damage? How does that help a Monk? They already get that progression as a class ability. Or am I missing something?

Brawls

Mavian
2007-12-18, 11:26 PM
When taken by a monk, it bumps them further up the monk table, instead of the Superior Unarmed Strike table.

tyckspoon
2007-12-18, 11:30 PM
Doesn't the Superior Unarmed Combat feat just give you the equivelent Monk damage progression for unarmed damage? How does that help a Monk? They already get that progression as a class ability. Or am I missing something?

Brawls

As Mavian said, it has a similar effect to wearing a Monk's Belt. There is some disagreement as to whether the Monk's Belt and the feat should stack for determining a Monk's unarmed strike damage; I am of the opinion that they should and do, which makes having both a reasonable way to achieve decent damage as a lower-level monk. If they don't, then you should pick one or the other and save resources, depending on whether you need the feat or the cash and item slot more.

Draz74
2007-12-18, 11:35 PM
- but as antagonists against a non-ToB party, they work great. Lots of surprises for the PCs, and you can read the flavour text right out of the book as they perform their maneuvers.

No! :smalleek: Whatever you do, if you have any narrative talent, I strongly suggest making up your own flavor text.

For one thing, it makes Warblades and Crusaders so much cooler when you describe them as actual skilled, focused warriors, rather than wannabe-wuxia types (Swordsages being the actual wuxia types) who yell out weird names for all their maneuvers and so on ... The last thing D&D needs is another group convinced that Tome of Battle can't represent non-supernatural warrior types. :smallwink:

For another thing, if you start reading book-sounding flavor text paragraphs for everything these foes do, your players will quickly figure out that you're pulling material out of some new published source. It sounds way more fun to just leave them, for a while, totally puzzled about how these fighter types are pulling off all these cool stunts.

Serenity
2007-12-19, 09:18 AM
No! :smalleek: Whatever you do, if you have any narrative talent, I strongly suggest making up your own flavor text.

For one thing, it makes Warblades and Crusaders so much cooler when you describe them as actual skilled, focused warriors, rather than wannabe-wuxia types (Swordsages being the actual wuxia types) who yell out weird names for all their maneuvers and so on ... The last thing D&D needs is another group convinced that Tome of Battle can't represent non-supernatural warrior types. :smallwink:

For another thing, if you start reading book-sounding flavor text paragraphs for everything these foes do, your players will quickly figure out that you're pulling material out of some new published source. It sounds way more fun to just leave them, for a while, totally puzzled about how these fighter types are pulling off all these cool stunts.

OK, first of all NONE, count 'em, NONE of the maneuvers have flavor text involving 'yelling out weird names.'

Second, let's check out what some of those flavor texts actually say:

Insightful Strike: "You study your opponent and spot a weak point in her armor. Wit a quick, decisive strike, you take advantage of this weakness with a devastating attack."

Disarming Strike: "You chop at your foe's hand, causing a grievous injury and forcing him to drop his weapon."

Overwhelming Mountain Strike: "Your mighty strike temporarily disorients your opponent, costing him precious seconds as he shakes off the attack."

Fountain of Blood: "As your foe dies on your blade, you twist and turn your weapon to send blood spraying across the battlefield. Your enemies shriek in fear at their ally's grisly demise."

White Raven maneuvers are all fluffed as shouting orders, distracting enemies and such.

Oh, you can just feel the supernatural wuxia power pumping in those, can't you? I recommend creating your own descriptions too, so you're not repeating the same description over and over, but only the fluff in Desert Wind, Devoted Spirit, and Shadow Hand is very supernatural, which is obviously by design.