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SofS
2007-12-19, 04:04 AM
If there's one thing common to most RPG settings I'm aware of, it is the presence and use of magic. Pretty much all fantasy settings use it and use it heavily; sci-fi settings also have their share of it (especially if you count psionics, as I do, but that's neither here nor there right now). I'd like to ask a general question of the posters on this board in regard to this assertion.

What do you like or dislike about magic in the roleplaying settings and systems that you know? I'm asking about both crunch and fluff, so to speak. What settings have handled magic to your liking? What systems make the concept work for you, whether or not you play magical characters? Contrariwise, what settings have irritating concepts of magic? What systems are terrible at making magic fun?

This question is open to all settings and systems. I'd like to see what people think about the presence of magic (or lack thereof) in the games they end up playing. Thanks for reading.

JackMage666
2007-12-19, 04:31 AM
D&D is horrible with magic, cause if you don't got it, you're pretty much underpowered in most campaigns now. I don't like when it's the most powerful force to come across, to the point where other classes are nearly penalized for not having it.

random11
2007-12-19, 04:35 AM
Most magics I used are home brewed versions using GURPS. I don't know many systems I liked that didn't have problems in this field AND fit the world I want.

Generally, I want magic to be more powerful then alternatives (otherwise, there is no reason to practice magic), but on the other hand, with major disadvantages (otherwise, every second person in the world would have been a wizard).

The disadvantages I use varies, and depend on the magic type that is used.
Usually it is either a high cost (hp, money, time to gather resources...)
Or a high risk (failure in magic is a lot riskier then failing a combat skill)
If you want, I can give some more detailed examples for the things I used.

Titanium Dragon
2007-12-19, 04:52 AM
Advantages of magic:

Allows for a wide variety of bizzare effects.
Allows for wacky dungeons and puzzles.
Is rather cool to set things on fire with a few words (or your mind).

Downsides:

Typically breaks the rules of the world, which makes it powerful.
Often allows too broad a diversity of effects, allowing one character to do anything and everything.
Is a cop-out when explaining things.

Favorite magic system? Alternity's psioinics. Sure, its potent to set people on fire with your mind, but you can also use a flame thrower to do the same thing. It was largely balanced with the system because magic is basically pseudo technology, and when other characters can replicate many psionic abilities with sensors and guns and various other things. Sure, its powerful, but there's tons of things to do in the system and psionics is not so powerful as to overshadow the other characters and, because of the way it worked, you couldn't take over other people's roles entirely with psionics because you weren't any better at it than someone who just used skills anyway.

SofS
2007-12-19, 04:54 AM
JackMage666: I'm no fan of D&D magic myself. It's too common and not really any fun, in my opinion, as it works against many fun character concepts. I invite anyone who disagrees to show me how that's not the case.

random11: I'd love to hear some examples of what you used. GURPS is great fun for making up styles of magic.

Balancing magic is best done, I think, by making it different from other things you could do with your character, not just the same thing but more mystical. I'd agree that cost and rarity, if enforced well, work to make magic both balanced and important.

Satyr
2007-12-19, 04:58 AM
Magic in the wrong doses hurts a game. While high amounts of magic sound nice on the short term, on long terms it hurts a campaign world badly because it destroys the world's plausibility and only an environment that is fundamentally rational, has a high level of internal consistency and is carefully maintained can give the feeling that one is involved in an epic.
I haven't yet seen a setting with high magic and a good long term motivation.
A too high level of magic does not only hurt the campaign, but also the perception of supernatural events - if magic becomes a part of every day life, it loses its sense of wonder. To be something special, it has to be something rare.
Therefore, my settings - and from my point of view, any good setting - is 'low magic'.

random11
2007-12-19, 05:27 AM
random11: I'd love to hear some examples of what you used. GURPS is great fun for making up styles of magic.




Blood magic:
------------
This type of magic requires a small sacrifice of blood (temporary cost of heath and strength). The more you sacrifice, the stronger the effect will be.

This type of magic is not limited to spells, it can practically do almost everything except all forms of healing.
However, the caster has no direct control on what the outcome will be, that depends mostly on the sub-conscience level.

For example, when you are in the middle of a combat, use of blood magic can result a direct attack for aggressive or direct characters, it can create buffs and protection spells in other times.

The biggest risk when using this magic, is that once the magic is activated, the caster has a split second to understand what type was activated, and throw it on the right target.
Failure in this might mean that you will accidentally attack your party, or buff an enemy.


Divine magic
------------
I used the four classical elements as gods, but it can easily be altered to any other concept.

Like the previous kind of magic, the caster is limited only by the concept of what his god represents (fire god - any form of fire magic).
This time, the caster has full control of the effect, but is limited in the strength and intentions.
The strength is limited by his rank in the temple.
The intentions depend on the gods. He is strictly unable to use the magic for personal gain, or even for self defense if it isn't on a direct holy mission.

Furthermore, failure in magic causes "crisis of faith" which leads to the caster having big penalties for future spells until he solves his dilemmas.
This can be done only by quite meditation in a temple, guided by higher ranked casters from the same god.



----
I made several other spell types, which includes demonology, alchemy, necromancy, stone magic and rune magic, all very different from one another.
If I'll have the time I'll post it later today.

Kiero
2007-12-19, 05:36 AM
I like magic simple, broad and unitary. As in I really dislike having completely arbitrary splits (arcane/divine/psionics...) in types of power. Moreso in terms of mechanics, but I don't tend to like fluff justifications for it either. Having lots of categories based around types of effects I can dig, but broad "you must be this type to use this entire swathe of magic" bleh.

I absolutely hate shopping lists of any kind in games, and spell lists read as just that. Feng Shui has the perfect magic system; a collection of very broad powers and room to improvise stuff. I much prefer dealing with magical effects on the "what's fun for everyone, what are you trying to do" basis than boring everyone with arguing over rules interpretation.

And don't get me started on magic items, especially the commonly occurring "magic item shop on every corner" economy variety. I'd happily do without any magic items at all, ever. Characters should be about what they know and how far they are willing to go for what they believe in, not how cool their stuff is.

Elanorea
2007-12-19, 05:40 AM
I'm currently trying to develop a homebrew world that has close to no magic. D&D magic annoys me immensely, because it can do anything, and everything it does will be better than the same thing done with non-magical means, and thus the non-magical classes are nearly useless.
I've encountered more "balanced" magic systems in video games, but then again most of those systems are very inflexible and make no sense from a fluff standpoint.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-12-19, 05:44 AM
I like magic in the game but I don't like magic stores or PCs knowing what their players know from reading a source book except for freebie original spell research leveling. Most wizards learn under the apprenticeship program for years not magic schools PHB page 55 first paragraph under Wizards. Just using humans for example Clerics, Druids and Wizard PCs normally start the game 3 - 4 years later than other classes for their race PHB page 109.

IMO most of the abuses are when the mechanics and rules the game is based on are ignored or abused on top of the design oversights. Most of the high level PC spellcasters hide out in dimensional spaces with anti divination effects in place from what I read on the boards so the comparable NPCs should be doing the same in game.

PCs knowing things the player knows is huge.

Take Candles of Invocation CL 17 (Creator must be the same alignment as the candle he is making) Gate (Clerics, Sorcerers or Wizards normally) at 8,400 gp market IMO they are way undercosted comparted to a more user restricted limited use scroll of Gate at 8,825 gp even before Miracle and Wish cheese.

Never had a DM give me one in game or let me buy one much less more than one. IMO Candles of Invocation should be minor artifacts not wondrous items handed out rarely as one shot minor artifact treasure by the DM in a campaign. Demographically only clerics are making them in game. Beats me why they are selling them for 8,825 gp when they could use it for a Wish and get 25,000 gp.

Magic items that have high caster level requirements being commonplace like Meta Rods which should be minor artifacts IMO.

According to standard demographics in the DMG the highest level sorcerer or wizard you will find in a Metropolis (+12 to highest level locals) is three of each class of levels 13 to 16 along with 3 clerics of levels 13 to 19. Nine high level spellcasters total in a Metropolis, comprised of at least 6 who cannot cast level 9 spells normally.

Why would they all have crafting feats? Why would they have nothing better to do with their time than craft items for PCs or NPCs when they could make more each day (500 GP should be doable) as professional spellcasters (if people can find them because they aren't hiding) and not lose any experience. They are hugely outnumbered (spellcasting supply to spellcasting demand).

90% of the populace lives in Thorps (-3), Hamlets(-2) and Villages (-1) the highest individual level sorcerer or wizard is 1D4 plus the locale demographic mechanic and 1D6 for clerics.

Small Towns get (+0)

Ignoring standard demographics from the DMG, something the designers do way to frequently in game to sell more source books look at Waterdeep City of Splendors or the Silver Marches.

This spills over into arcane spellcasters at mid to high levels not having every spell in existence at their beck and call because there is a shortage of comparable high level NPCs in the world who don't know all the spells either who don't live in the information age so it takes time to find someone with the spell who is willing to share it with you for some kind of consideration.

I like the ECS Magewrights but don't believe they should be limited to Spell Mastery let them have spell books instead and basic arcane magic from cantrips to second level becomes uncommon while opening up more 4th to 5th level sources for arcane spells in a world.

Talic
2007-12-19, 06:00 AM
I like magic in the game but I don't like magic stores or PCs knowing what their players know from reading a source book except for freebie original spell research leveling.

IMO most of the abuses are when the mechanics and rules the game is based on are ignored or abused on top of the design oversights. Most of the high level PC spellcasters hide out in dimensional spaces with anti divination effects in place from what I read on the boards so the comparable NPCs should be doing the same in game.

PCs knowing things the player knows is huge.

Take Candles of Invocation CL 17 (Creator must be the same alignment as the candle he is making) Gate (Clerics, Sorcerers or Wizards normally) at 8,400 gp market IMO they are way undercosted compared to a more user restricted limited use scroll of Gate at 8,825 gp even before Miracle and Wish cheese.

Never had a DM give me one in game or let me buy one much less more than one. IMO Candles of Invocation should be minor artifacts not wondrous items handed out rarely as one shot minor artifact treasure by the DM in a campaign.

Magic items that have high caster level requirements being commonplace like Meta Rods.

According to standard demographics in the DMG the highest level sorcerer or wizard you will find in a Metropolis (+12 to highest level locals) is three of each class of levels 13 to 16 along with 3 clerics of levels 13 to 19. Nine high level spellcasters total in a Metropolis, comprised of at least 6 who cannot cast level 9 spells normally.

Why would they all have crafting feats? Why would they have nothing better to do with their time than craft items for PCs or NPCs when they could make more each day (500 GP should be doable) as professional spellcasters (if people can find them because they aren't hiding) and not lose any experience.

90% of the populace lives in Thorps, Hamlets and Villages.

Ignoring standard demographics from the DMG, something the designers do way to frequently in game to sell more source books.

This spills over into spellcasters at high levels not having every spell in existence at their beck and call because there is a shortage of comparable high level NPCs in the world who don't know all the spells either.

And thus, you have spell research rules... which is one reason wizards have their own abodes, often extraplanar.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-12-19, 06:11 AM
And thus, you have spell research rules... which is one reason wizards have their own abodes, often extraplanar.

I agree I like the original spell research rules that supplement leveling. It just takes time and gold. IMO most DMs will let you know if a source book spell is not viable in their campaign.

P.S. Elanora you might like "A Game of Thrones" pricey 490+ pages but almost no magic.

Tormsskull
2007-12-19, 08:19 AM
I like magic to be raw energy that is dangerous to learn and basically requires the user to learn how to control it, which should be difficult.

I really like the Wheel of Time's take on magic, except I would axe the "men and women access magic through different means" idea.

In my perfect RPG, magic would only last as long as the caster is maintaining the spell, which would be strenous. There would be no divination spells as they currently are (though some of their info-gathering attributes could be done in another way).

My favorite phrase for my preferred type of magic is "Magic isn't magical". By that I mean that magic is just a source of power that can be shaped based on the caster's skill. It is not intelligent, it is not good or evil, etc. I particularly despise Programable magic.

Also, I don't like the idea that you can read a book and then learn to cast spells. To me magic is something you either can do, or can't do, it isn't Calculus.

Fixer
2007-12-19, 08:34 AM
I prefer my magic less powerful (but only slightly so) than what a person can do with their hands and tools. It should, however, be able to do some things that a person simply cannot do to compensate for being less effective in other areas.

I see magic as the tool that characters without high physical ability scores use to improve their lot in life. It is the medieval nerd life-path. Their magic helps them to survive in the world, but not become near-gods or masters of realms. An equivalently skilled guy with a sharp pointy stick and a magician should give each other an equally hard time at all levels, not just the 3rd or 4th levels as it is in D&D.

Wands and staves should be treated as tools, like longswords or greatswords. They are used by magicians to attack their opponents (kind of like Harry Potter without the bad Latin). Robes should be able to be used as armor, enchanted to deflect blows or avoid magical effects. Some other implement should be available for the off-hand for personal defense when one is not wielding a staff or a magician could go the two-wand route.

ALOR
2007-12-19, 08:41 AM
Honestly I like magic many diffrent ways. I like high magic, where magic gets close to technology (eberon or even something more advanced). I like low magic where the rumors of a mage living in a tower will get you dissmissed as crazy. However, what is truly important for me in any setting? Magic should be the ultimate power in the setting.

Maroon
2007-12-19, 09:23 AM
I dislike the D&D magic system of 'read book, combat begins, say some words, something happens, say some more words, something else happens, combat ends, read book'. There just isn't a cost attached, not in the way a fighter has to trade full attacks to get anywhere. While I don't care much for horror campaigns, I find that the Sanity system is a great way to represent the dangers of using your brain as a battering ram. I haven't tried it yet, but using it in conjunction with psionics and doing away with power points (essentially spending Sanity points to manifest powers) makes magic much more physical. High-level casters will be much weaker, in a way, than low-level casters, because they're always only a few steps away from going permanently insane.

kamikasei
2007-12-19, 09:34 AM
I dislike the D&D magic system of 'read book, combat begins, say some words, something happens, say some more words, something else happens, combat ends, read book'. There just isn't a cost attached, not in the way a fighter has to trade full attacks to get anywhere. While I don't care much for horror campaigns, I find that the Sanity system is a great way to represent the dangers of using your brain as a battering ram. I haven't tried it yet, but using it in conjunction with psionics and doing away with power points (essentially spending Sanity points to manifest powers) makes magic much more physical. High-level casters will be much weaker, in a way, than low-level casters, because they're always only a few steps away from going permanently insane.

That sounds like much, much more of a cost than a fighter having to trade full attacks. If the fighter had to sacrifice CON to deal damage you might be closer.

psychoticbarber
2007-12-19, 10:24 AM
I really like the Wheel of Time's take on magic, except I would axe the "men and women access magic through different means" idea.

I agree. [Insert Shameless Plug of Home Setting Here] (http://cityofkayru.blogspot.com). It's still a work in progress, so, bear with me.

Craig1f
2007-12-19, 10:58 AM
What I don't like in DnD is that there aren't many non-magic solutions for things. Most traps end up being magical. You can't improve a sword past MW without magic. And the only way to really stop magic is an anti magic field.

Traps should mostly be mechanical. You should be able to find improved weapons, using different materials (not just admantine and the like) to get inherent bonuses. You should be able to sharpen your weapon to make it better, etc.

It should be easier to disrupt spellcasters from casting spells. Right now, they can reliably cast defensively pretty quickly in the game.

Prometheus
2007-12-19, 12:00 PM
D&D doesn't effectively maintain a separation between types of magic. Arcane and Divine spellcasters can replicate almost all each others effects, usually only at the cost of a level. Specialization mechanic is not enough to give the a true feeling of specialization - the divination specialist who barred abjuration but up to this point in time has no used evocation can grab an evocation spell knowing nothing else about the field.

It's one thing I always appreciated about Magic the Gathering cards (before they went soft and start catering to a younger crowd and emulating YuGiOh and Pokemon) Certain types of effects just couldn't be replicated with certain types of magic. If you did actually find one that would do it, the cost was heavy.

Of course, if you widened the barriers between D&D magic as it currently stands, you couldn't do much with any one school and the classes would be vastly unbalanced. About four pairs would be good a good number (It could be divided a number of ways. eg Spirital Div-Necro, Material Conju-Abjur, Transcendent Trans-Evok, and Decietful Illu-Ench or Good Div-Abjur, Evil Evok-Necro, Law Conj-Ench, Chaos Trans-Illu)

Morty
2007-12-19, 12:06 PM
In D&D magic, I like Vancian casting, lots of specific spells and scholarly approach to arcane magic- mages are scholars, not heavy artillery batteries. But that's it. Other than that, magic is too easy, too powerful and it's too easy to solve everything by magic without resolving to mundane means.

The_Werebear
2007-12-19, 12:26 PM
In the campaign my friends and I are doing, we have burned the spellcasting system to the ground and are rebuilding it from the bottom up. Here are the primary changes

We axed the arcane/psionic/divine borderline. Magic is magic, no matter where you pull it from. Some people write formulas, some people pray, some people pull it out of their ass. In the end though, it is still the same stuff.

We axed the traditional schools and spells and built our own list, maxing it out at seventh level. Since you have to put points in schools to gain proficiency with casting the higher level effects, it means you can't just level up and start doing stuff you never did before. Exe(A fifth level spellcaster has five points to spend. They put 3 points in Fire and Ice, giving them access to third level effects and lower from that school. They put one of their remaining points in Necromancy and another in divination. They can cast first level spells from those schools. Since we are using the bardic spell level numbers, they can't actually cast third level effects yet, meaning that third point in Fire and Ice is a waste until they gain some more levels.

We instituted a spell point system with very limited spell points ( 1 per caster level + your wisdom bonus). Once you run out of spell points (spells cost 1 per spell level) you have to start burning 1d4 vitality points per spell level instead, and if you want to go that far, into wound points as well. This was partially for balance, partially for flavor. Many flavor sources mention casters being exhausted by the effort. In this system, it is literally possible to cast yourself to death if you aren't careful.

Some schools (Necromancy and Divination in particular) cost sanity to use. (Fairly easy will save versus San damage, but the risk is still there) This is kinda bad, because Necromancy gets the healing spells again.

Raising the dead has been modified. You have to get to someone who will first be willing to repair the body(Fairly easy to find, it only requires some healing spells). Then, you need to find someone willing to stuff the soul back in it, something a little harder to find as messing with souls is a 7th level effect, again in Necromancy school.

We gave spellcasters MAD again. Intelligence helps boost the number of points you can put into various effects (we haven't decided by exactly how much), wisdom gives you extra spell points and sanity, and charisma determines the DC.

Maroon
2007-12-19, 12:27 PM
That sounds like much, much more of a cost than a fighter having to trade full attacks. If the fighter had to sacrifice CON to deal damage you might be closer.
Well, considering that casting an nth level spell will cost you either n, 2n or nd6 sanity points as outlined here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/sanity.htm#castingSpells), paying 17 sanity points for a 9th level power is quite forgiving. Also consider that psionics has a much more limited ability to heal hit points and practically no resurrection. It'd do the job of equalising casters and non-casters pretty well. You might also allow sanity points to be recovered quicker or have some sort of vitality/wound point system for sanity points.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-19, 12:31 PM
Personally, I follow Eddings' philosophy on magic and sorcery:

You can do anything, but more often than not, it's simply better to do it the mundane way, for a variety of reasons.

EvilRoeSlade
2007-12-19, 12:34 PM
I like the magic system in Iron Heroes. There's only one magic-using class, the Arcanist. Whenever the Arcanist casts a spell, there's a small chance it will fail and thus backfire, creating some serious problems. Thus the Arcanist has to save his spells as a last resort, and use his skills, feats, and lesser magical features to support the party (all of which he has in abundance).

Iron Heroes is set up for a low-magic campaign setting akin to the world of Conaan. Magic Items are dangerous things created by unknowable entities in times gone by. You don't toss your ancestral greatsword heirloom for the magic sword you found in the pile of treasure, because if you do, odds are there's something about that sword that you don't know about that will make you regret ever daring to touch it.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-19, 12:36 PM
Actually, tossing "ye olde heirloome" is a bad idea for another reason: you can upgrade items, so you get BOTH a potential macguffin and a better wep. And you can soften things up for getting an Ancestra Weapon, a Legacy Weapon, or best of all, a Legendary Weapon.

Arakune
2007-12-19, 12:45 PM
Focus Version.

With focus 10 in light you can make an entire mountain invisible! But to get that focus 10 it's like going to... lvl 45? Sure, magic will broke the game, but only when the game are already broken anyway...

Edit: O yeah, iff you specializes only in light focus.

Fhaolan
2007-12-19, 12:56 PM
TANSTAAFL

There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

And that's my biggest issue with many RPG magics, which to me breaks believability. Magic in D&D (and many other RPGs) is free. It's easy. Nothing ever goes wrong, and it really doesn't cost anything meaningfull.

So why isn't everyone doing it? If magic is so easy, so obvious, so ubiquidous, why isn't everyone a spellcaster of some sort?

That annoys me. There is another path for high-magic, PAIN. It *costs* something to do the big magic. Sacrifice, either yours or someone else. Big rituals, bargains with extraplanar entities, really *nasty* things. You want the ability to alter reality? You pay the piper.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-19, 01:01 PM
Isn't that similar to systems in which the force of your will/etc. determines what you can do? In those, if you go past your limit, it's Hasta La Vista, Baby for you.

Tweekinator
2007-12-19, 04:09 PM
Magic is foul and unnatural.

Thinker
2007-12-19, 04:33 PM
Magic is foul and unnatural.

Um...no. Magic is the essence of any good fantasy universe. Without magic why not just be earth? Is it an alternate history? May as well be magic. Is it a world with different creatures? May as well be magic. I'd take a wizard protaganist over some half-assed smelly fighter any day.

GoC
2007-12-19, 09:19 PM
TANSTAAFL

There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

And that's my biggest issue with many RPG magics, which to me breaks believability. Magic in D&D (and many other RPGs) is free. It's easy. Nothing ever goes wrong, and it really doesn't cost anything meaningfull.

So why isn't everyone doing it? If magic is so easy, so obvious, so ubiquidous, why isn't everyone a spellcaster of some sort?

They should increase the Int requirements to 13+spell level.
And anyone with 14 knows that it's easier to become a powerful warlord then a powerful wizard.
Years of study isn't going to get you beyond 3rd level and as for adventuring well... casters are very squishy.

I generaly play in low-level worlds were the highest level wizard in the country is 7th level.

Talic
2007-12-20, 03:27 AM
Because half a decade of practice is required to become a mage.

It's like being a doctor... They go into a hospital, save a few patients, go home, all without sacrificing their soul to the foul demon Demigorgonzola...

Why, it must be easy to be a doctor! Why isn't everyone?

Well, the $50,000+ medical school bill and 6 years of rigorous training could be part of it.

Khanderas
2007-12-20, 03:53 AM
Because half a decade of practice is required to become a mage.

It's like being a doctor... They go into a hospital, save a few patients, go home, all without sacrificing their soul to the foul demon Demigorgonzola...

Why, it must be easy to be a doctor! Why isn't everyone?

Well, the $50,000+ medical school bill and 6 years of rigorous training could be part of it.
Sure. But in D&D that isnt true. You go, kill 10 kobolds and you are a mage (or if you started as a mage, a better mage). You also advance as a specialist as fast as the guy who says "durr" alot and clubs things to death. (You will advance further yes, but 1 level fighter takes the same time / xp as 1 level wizard).

Edit: Funnily enough, you advance your bookish skillz the same way a Fighter does. By killing things dead. "Woo, the Purple worm is dead, Im now a Librarian lv 14. That means I can pull a supervisor salary !"

Thorosofmyr
2007-12-20, 01:24 PM
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the Shadowrun system's take on magic yet. I've really only played 3rd ed, but I've liked what I've seen of it so far.

There, magic is costly.
The most broken magic in the game is undoubtedly summoning. A single earth elemental can quite easily stand up to heavy machine gun fire without much trouble. However, along with anti magic counter-measures, summoning the elemental requires quite a bit of money.

In addition, casting is also costly on the constitution. Shadowrun does boxes in two types, stun and lethal. You have 10 boxes of each. Casting all types of magic requires a test against taking stun damage. Take 10 stun, and you're out like a light. In addition to summoning, there's a great number of very useful spells, from the classic fireball to control actions. However, it's not impossible for even a fairly well made character to be out after casting one particularly powerful spell.

Also, magic doesn't always work.
In dnd, without interference, magic works. The spell goes off 100% of the time. In shadowrun, each spell requires a test. The test is harder depending on how powerful the spell is. In addition, wounds (from stun or leathal) make these checks harder. Even if the spell doesn't go off, you need to make the test against taking the stun.

The restrictions are a little harsh, but magic is still undeniably useful and powerful. However, it's not so easy that all the other characters are automatically overshadowed. Technology is more predictable, reliable, and in some cases just as deadly.

Fhaolan
2007-12-20, 03:35 PM
Because half a decade of practice is required to become a mage.

It's like being a doctor... They go into a hospital, save a few patients, go home, all without sacrificing their soul to the foul demon Demigorgonzola...

Why, it must be easy to be a doctor! Why isn't everyone?

Well, the $50,000+ medical school bill and 6 years of rigorous training could be part of it.

Yep. And yet a medical doctor cannot warp the nature of reality, which a Mage can. He can't spend a couple of hours learning a spell that can cause elemental fire to spontaneously appear out of nothing. As for divine spellcasters, he can't cure cancer as a standard action, which a cleric can.

A 1st level Wizard can control forces so far beyond what the most experienced surgeon is capable of, the cost of doing so must also be far beyond the cost of being a surgeon. That price *must* be paid. If it is not paid, then the campaign world will spiral into absurdity because magic is too easy.

In D&D, being a Wizard doesn't even take as much effort to be a surgeon. And all it takes to be a Wizard is an Int above human average. And as Khanderas says, it doesn't take 5 years. It take one evening of killing Kobolds. And spontaneously you gain a spellbook and all the training necessary to be a Mage.

Yes, it's too easy.