The coolest VS thread yet

[Prophaniti]

Having seen too many ridiculous and nonsensical vs threads (seriously, some of these are just getting wierd... vader vs transformers? Sauron vs Batman? How stoned were you?:smalltongue: ) I decided to make one where the combatants were actually on the same level.

Prepare for the ultimate showdown of humanity's supersoldiers!
In this corner- Saving humans from extinction is a cakewalk (unless you're playing on legendary:smallbiggrin:) for these guys. Give it up for the
Spartan-IIshttp://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii294/graywolf_001/HALO_THISWEEK.jpg
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii294/graywolf_001/TheHeretic_TheSpartansDesktop_1280x.jpg
Man, it's hard to find a good picture of a Spartan-II squad...

And in this corner- Bringing the Light of humanity to the farthest corners of the galaxy, and killing anything that gets in the way! Let's hear it for the
Space Marineshttp://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii294/graywolf_001/space-marines-codex-graphic.gif
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii294/graywolf_001/17-big.jpg
Details: Ok, obviously there are way more SMs than Spartans, so Imperium vs UNSC is out. This is a 'cage' match. An equal number of Spartans face an equal number of Space Marines in three distinct rounds.

Round 1: One spartan and one marine in a maze-like level. They may choose whatever weapons they wish out of those normaly available in their respective games (yes, this means the spartans can use covenant tech). Last man standing wins.

Round 2: Squad vs. squad, again weapon choice is open, but no vehicles (there's too many really good ones on the SM side to balance). Terrain and objective are chosen by the winner of a coin toss, so this round can have a lot of variance.

Round 3: This is just for fun. Let's see which one's toughest without that awesome armor. Cage match, unarmed, unarmored. Fight to knockout (or death, whichever happens first)

This strikes me as an awesomely matched pair. Both are genetically and cybernetically enhanced, both have unmatched reflexes, strength, endurance, tactical expertise, ect. I will try to find links to lists of their respective enhancements, but if anyone finds them before I do, that'd be great.

Space Marines have the advantage in weapons tech, I'd take a bolter over ANY gun you can use in Halo. Spartans have absolutely outstanding team coordination, even beyond that of most SM chapters, and their armor has regenerating shields, a big plus. Personally I think anyone who immediately gives it to one or the other doesn't know enough about the one they think will lose.

Addendum:This section will contain all updates and changes to the original paramiters.
1)Space Marines are just standard marines with tactical squad gear. No special characters.
2)Power basis is fluff vs fluff, respective video games are ignored. (Spartans were underpowered in Halo anyway, they cant even sprint:smallconfused:)
3)UNSC timeline is after current events of games, and Spartans have access to both borrowed and reverse-engineered Covenant tech.
4)scale is such that plasma sword = power sword
5)in round 2 both squads are limited to one or two of each special weapon. Standard weapon for Spartans is any rifle (assault, battle, plasma, carbine), any one pistol.
6)scanners/sensors are as follows: Space Marine squad gets one man with an auspex. SM helmets do have thermal scanning as well as night vision, but so do Spartans, even though they don't cover it in the game. Both Spartans and SMs have limited motion tracking. The walls in round 1 are too thick for thermals to penetrate.
7)Spartans get access to gadgets from Halo 3, bubble shield, energy sapper, flashbang, ect. SMs get any special grenades they like from the SM armory.

So what are your thoughts? Who would you bet on? Does that change in any of the rounds? Side contests that might be fun- How much of the vast Imperial warmachine would be required to bring the UNSC (before they were nearly eradicated) under the hand of the Emperor? UNSC marines vs Imperial Guard? How much trouble do you think the Covenant would have been if they'd found the Imperium instead of the UNSC? Go forth and discuss!

[A Rainy Knight]

Hey, I made a thread like this a while ago. Deja vu.

Space Marines all the way. They're just ridiculously powerful. The Spartans have the advanced reflexes, stamina, muscles, and such. The Space Marines just never friggin' die. When they do, it's generally on top of a mound of corpses. They've got instantly-clotting blood, three lungs, two hearts, nearly invincible armor that augments their strength, and a ludicrously powerful body as it is. Plus, "they shall know no fear." Half the weapons in Halo probably couldn't pierce their armor. Spartans are tough, but Space Marines are just crazy. Or at least fanatical.
If the numbers are even, Master Chief's going to wish he was playing on Easy. :smallamused: I'd hand every match to the Space Marines on account of them being the toughest pseudo-humans in the galaxy.

Yes, I used to play Spacies in Warhammer 40K.

[Emperor Ing]

Factor thrown in: Spartan Laser
If that can shoot through tanks (even if it doesnt kill them in 1 hit in the game), then space marines might have a chip on their shoulder.
Otherwise, space marines.

[A Rainy Knight]

Very true. I hadn't thought of that. But then again...

Say hello to my portable lascannon. :smalltongue:

[Tweekinator]

I'm going with Space Marines. As Rainy Knight said, they are unstoppable killing machines.

[Smeik]

vortex grenade.
It's the easiest way for a SM to win if they have access to their whole weapon chamber.

I see a problem with round three, as most SMs have parts of their armour implanted into their friggin' body. BUt just as well, the SM wins the wrestling-comtest with ease.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Even if all the Spartans have their lazors, it still has to go to the Space Marines. Each one is like a highly mobile, ultra-zealous tank, packing a rapid fire missile launcher; it would take just one to get into melee to doom all of the Spartans.

[Baerdog7]

As much as I hate to do this, I think I'm going to have to give this one to the Space Marines. They are just too stupidly powerful, especially if they get into melee. Powerfist > energy sword. Now, the OP didn't give a specific chapter, but the Spartans would be even more screwed methinks if it were Space Wolves that they got into melee with. *shudders*

I feel kinda dirty now. It's always hard giving beakies so much credit, even if they deserve it.

[13_CBS]

Thought Spartan Lasers blasting through tanks was powerful?

A Space marine could literally tear a tank into pieces WITH HIS BARE HANDS.

[Lorn]

Marines all the way, no competition possible.

Assuming that's fluff Marines, even more so.

Round 1 -
Marine sensors can see through things (well, at least detect heat signatures) giving them a pretty serious element of surprise. Plus, massreactive shells - even if it does NOT pierce the Spartan armour, it'll pulp the fleshy innards. And it'd be able to chew through the walls of the maze.

Round 2 -
Marine winning toss: Marines win. Cityscape terrain, they're designed for close range firefights.
Spartan winning toss: Marines win. They're MARINES. Plus, the Spartans would probably choose the same terrain; if the Marines won the last match they'd win this too.

Round 3 -
Marine end-of-story-no-competition-Spartan-head-on-a-plate win.
Read the Horus Heresy fluff. Marines can fight just as well without armour. They can literally rip arms off and stuff NO problem with their bare hands. It'd be a massacre, even if you gave the Spartan extra people.

[Prophaniti]

Sorry, Rainy Knight, I probably shoulda checked to see if it'd been done before... unless it's been long enough for that to qualify as thread necromancy?

I love Space Marines just as much as the next chaos-hating sworn Imperial, but I'm surprised you guys are writing off the Spartans so quickly. First I should clarify the limits of the SM wargear. Tactical squad gear only, no Terminator armor, no Iron Halo or other really powerful bits. That means close combat weapons, except for the sergeants, are limited to the standard knives - not to be underestimated but without the endgame power of some of the other options.

For sake of scaling comparisons a Plasma sword from Halo = a power sword from WH40k, and the grav hammer=Thunderhammer, so a single hit from either one on either side could kill. To be fair, the Spartans will be outfitted in a similar fashion, with only one or two of each 'special' weapon in the squad(sword, hammer, snipe, rocket, Sp Laser), but each of them get their choice of those fun new devices from Halo 3, and they're all fully effective on SMs. The drainer will lock up their power armor just the same, and the radar scrambler will mess with the auspex.

Second, has no one else read the novelisations of the Halo universe? The spartans posess an almost supernatural group synergy. It is stated in the books that the Spartans NEVER lost a ground engagement; they were only forced to retreat when the UNSC lost control of the sky and the covenant glassed the planet. The training of a spartan focuses a lot more on group action than most SM chapters from what I've read.

As far as augmentations go, I still put them on a close level, at least as far as strength and speed goes. A spartan's bare-handed punch could dent hull plating, which is on a level with SMs. The only SMs to rip a tank apart bare-handed or similar feats where mostly Primarches, who are as far above normal SMs as they are above normal humans. The parts of a SMs armor that are inseperable are things like the black carapace, which is mostly an interface for the full suit. Yes the SMs have a lot of extra organs, and if you put both of them at the end of a shooting gallery, the SM would live longer. The deciding factor, for rounds 1 & 2 at least, will be tactics and guile, in which I think the spartans have an edge.

Oh, and if anyone thinks Chapter will make a difference please say which chapter and why. A very valid point about the Space Wolves, if the Spartans let them close... I don't hold out much hope for them.

I really need to find that list of augments for both sides.... it'll have to be after work though.

[....]

Yeah, I say Space Marines.

I mean, come on the Spartans are from earth in the year, what, 21XX? The Space marines are for the year 41,000.

Thats like asking if cavemen could beat modern marines.

EDIT: And the post you just made above me dosn't seem very fair. You admit the Marine beat the Spartans, but then say, "Wait, though, lets pretend the Spartan's equipment is as good as the Marine's."

Not to mention that neither the plasma sword or grav-hammer are anything like standard Spartan issue. If they get super alien weapons, why don't the Space Marines?

[Lorn]

Second, has no one else read the novelisations of the Halo universe? The spartans posess an almost supernatural group synergy. It is stated in the books that the Spartans NEVER lost a ground engagement; they were only forced to retreat when the UNSC lost control of the sky and the covenant glassed the planet. The training of a spartan focuses a lot more on group action from what I've read.
Have you read the WH40K fluff? Specifically, the Horus Heresy series?

Specifically, Horus Rising and False Gods?

There's a very detailed account of exactly how dangerous normal Marines can be in these.

Marines, in those, never lose. They never retreat. Group work and single unit work is pretty much the same. Added to that, the fact that their normal weaponry is a small missile launcher does kind of tip the balance a bit...

[EvilElitest]

I don't know enough about ether side so nothing to add, but i will say good job for trying to make an even vs. thread
from,
EE

[Prophaniti]

I'm making the comparison so there is some sense of scale to the fight. A power sword from WH40k will carve through ceramite and steel like butter... so will a Halo plasma sword. No, they're not standard issue UNSC gear, but in this fantasy universe the UNSC beat the covenant (and allied with the defecting elites) and reverse-engineered much of their tech, so now they have plasma weapons and grav-hammers. Best I could do for them considering the mentioned time gap. Some of the standard UNSC gear will still be useful. The sniper rifle is still a 50-cal round and a headshot stands a good chance of scoring a kill on a SM. SMs don't use alien weapons because they're xenos filth, don't you know anyting about them?:smalltongue:

A spartan is just as strong without armor as a normal SM and faster. SMs are tougher, so the wrestling match probably will go their way. The other two as I said depend a lot more on coordination and tactics so I still think the Spartans have a fighting chance.

[....]

SMs don't use alien weapons because they're xenos filth, don't you know anyting about them?:smalltongue:
.

But if Spartans get super-swords, why don't SM get Terminator armor?

[Prophaniti]

Have you read the WH40K fluff? Specifically, the Horus Heresy series?

Specifically, Horus Rising and False Gods?

There's a very detailed account of exactly how dangerous normal Marines can be in these.

Marines, in those, never lose. They never retreat. Group work and single unit work is pretty much the same. Added to that, the fact that their normal weaponry is a small missile launcher does kind of tip the balance a bit...

I have actually, and love them. Great novels. You should note in them that however impressive a Space Marine is, their normal notion of tactics is like that of a swat team, bash in the door, pour in and don't hesitate. Granted this works very well for them because they are so tough, but having also read the Halo books and examining the tactical genious of every spartan they talk about... I can see them setting up a devastating ambush that a typically arrogant SM would walk right into. The Space Marines best bet for victory in round two would be to select an open plain as the battlefield, minimal cover and no way for the spartans to flank or ambush. Any other scenario has the spartans at least on an even footing, perhaps at an advantage.

But if Spartans get super-swords, why don't SM get Terminator armor?
The SMs do get super swords, the sergeant can have a power sword. I already stipulated that neither side can have the entire squad with them.

[Lorn]

A spartan is just as strong without armor as a normal SM and faster. SMs are tougher, so the wrestling match probably will go their way. The other two as I said depend a lot more on coordination and tactics so I still think the Spartans have a fighting chance.
No. No, they aren't. Really, there's no way they can be.

Take Abbadon as an example, from False Gods (Graham McNeill)

P208 - he's unarmoured, and he literally rips a combat servitor apart. Three, in fact, though two aren't described. Servitor = basically the same as a human as far as that goes. Just with extra metal bits.

Plus, just because an Astartes is bulky does not mean they're slow - Loken, page 31 of the same book.

The difference is, Spartans are merely genetically engineered to slightly improve them, if that. Marines, completely regrown. Literally, they can have no other purpose than war. Their life revolves around it, they train constantly when they aren't actually at war or sleeping.

There honestly is, as far as I can see, no competition. At all.

[Mr._Blinky]

Yeah, I think the SM win. They're just ridiculously powerful. And no, a Spartan is not as strong as a SM, the Marines are significantly stronger. Now, if the tech were the same, the Spartans might win at guerrilla tactics, but that's it.

In fact, guerrilla warfare is about all I can see the Spartans winning at. They're faster, smarter, and unlike the Marines are actually willing to experiment without flagellating themselves for impurity. In the first scenario, the Spartan can stealth around, get into a good position, and use hit and run to lure the SM to a concealed mine or something. This is of course assuming that the SM sensors don't detect him, but on the other hand they don't detect Infiltrated units without an auspex, so there's no real reason to believe they could.

Once you get to squad level and the tech involved, Spartans get slaughtered. If they went in guerrilla styles, they could get maybe one or two Marines with traps, but then they'd get smoked by missiles, heavy bolters, lascannons, etc.

And for the final match, I'd imagine that the Spartan's punches could knock the wind out of the Marine on a good shot, and I think they're more agile, but the minute the Marine gets a grip it's all over. It'd be like being compressed by a trash compactor.

[GoC]

Give the Spartans Ironman's armor and they might stand a chance.

[Prophaniti]

Again, answering WH40k novel with Halo novel, please tell me someone else has read them...:smallannoyed: if both are unarmored, its even strength, spartan is faster, SM is a good bit tougher(although if we inlcude some of the chem augments added to the program in Ghosts of Onyx, that gap closes a little). The SM armor is more protective but that is at least partly negated by the Spartan shields. Weapons tech is again in SM favor, but not enough to make it a guaranteed win. The Covenant had better weapons after all, and we all know how much good that did their ground forces. Going from Novel fluff vs novel fluff, and making it an average SM tactical squad possibly with a veteran sergeant, I still think it's quite an even match. Obviously I'm not going to throw named characters in the match because that stirs up more bias than that already present.

I have added an addendum section to the first post to keep track of all the things I've had to clarify.

[A Rainy Knight]

Sorry, Rainy Knight, I probably shoulda checked to see if it'd been done before... unless it's been long enough for that to qualify as thread necromancy?

Don't worry. Mine's pretty long dead.

[Selrahc]

Again, answering WH40k novel with Halo novel, please tell me someone else has read them...:smallannoyed:

Yeah. I'd give Spartans the edge in running speed, and say that they have reflexes on a similar level, or to a slight degree better.

In pretty much every other area, the Space Marines have either a slight or a significant edge over Spartans.

[Raiser Blade]

Spartans were bred as war machines too. They are more than just a "little" genetically altered.

Having read the books I think that a spartan could rip a normal human being into pieces with his bare hands. I know a full powered punch to the torso or head from a spartan is lethal.


They are around eight feet tall and they have enhanced skeletons and healing capabilities. Also they are lightning fast even without their armor (which makes them faster).

In a training mission they disarmed and knocked out a group of guards and people who were actually watching the training mission didn't see them do it.

Also squad tactics is where the spartans excell. They have been training together since they were kids.

In a squad match of a group of spartans vs. a group of space marines I give that to the spartans everytime. One on one is different.

[Prophaniti]

Thank you Raiser, at last someone understands where I'm coming from:smallsmile:. Anyone have any thoughts on the side contests at the bottom of the first post?

[A Rainy Knight]

The Covenant would definitely be in trouble if they hit the Imperium instead of the UNSC, because they would immediately be denounced as heathen xenos and drowned under a tide of Guardsmen. Pretty much that simple.

[Raiser Blade]

The Covenant would definitely be in trouble if they hit the Imperium instead of the UNSC, because they would immediately be denounced as heathen xenos and drowned under a tide of Guardsmen. Pretty much that simple.

No actually the covenant would bathe their planets/planet? in plasma and watch the atmosphere burn away and then warp away.

[A Rainy Knight]

How many ships do the Covenant have? Because the Imperium has millions of planets in it, not to mention the fact that I find the presence of things like glassing planets (Covenant)/the Exterminatus (Imperium)/Base Delta Zero (Galactic Empire) to take the fun out of everything. :smalltongue:

And why didn't they just do that to the Halo humans?

[Mr._Blinky]

Spartans were bred as war machines too. They are more than just a "little" genetically altered.

Having read the books I think that a spartan could rip a normal human being into pieces with his bare hands. I know a full powered punch to the torso or head from a spartan is lethal.


They are around eight feet tall and they have enhanced skeletons and healing capabilities. Also they are lightning fast even without their armor (which makes them faster).

In a training mission they disarmed and knocked out a group of guards and people who were actually watching the training mission didn't see them do it.

Also squad tactics is where the spartans excell. They have been training together since they were kids.

In a squad match of a group of spartans vs. a group of space marines I give that to the spartans everytime. One on one is different.

Fully understood, and I have read books from both. I still say SM win because while both are tooled out, genetically enhanced cyborgs, the Space Marines are genetically engineered 39,000 years in the future from the genetic stock of a god-level being (they're designed from the Primarchs, who are in turn the Emperor's sons), have armor that can withstand tank shells, have weapons that are essentially rapid-fire, 20 mm grenade launchers, have their senses honed to the point of ridiculousness, are strong enough to rip tanks apart with their bare hands, can have entire sides of their bodies blown off and keep fighting, have multiple redundant organs, and are all FANATICALLY ZEALOUS, HUNDREDS OF YEARS OLD PSYCHOPATHIC MONKS WHO DO NOT KNOW FEAR. Spartans are amazingly tough, but while they have excellent tactical brilliance and are blindingly fast, SMs in the fluff are just so ridiculously over-powering that a squad of them today could probably wipe out a full armored column in a frontal assault.

I'll grant that against Tac. Marines, the Spartans have the advantage of stealth and speed, and probably have better tactical knowledge than the Marines. But remember that the whole "trained from age 8" thing matters less when your opponent started only a bit later and is a couple of hundred years more experienced. Also, in terms of strength, Spartans are strong, but not Marine strong. The mere fact that a brute in Halo can survive being punched even once proves it. A similar punch from a marine in full armor would turn the brute into a pile of goo. And that's not even including powerfists and the like. Also, power sword does not equal energy sword. Energy sword isn't even a one hit kill if it isn't on a charge, whereas a power sword cuts through tank armor like it isn't even there. A gravity hammer is a deadly weapon, but a Thunderhammer is so powerful it can knock out people inside of tanks it strikes.

Energy shields regenerating is fun, but in the long run I'd rather have the armor that my opponent can't even penetrate with anything short of a .50 cal or a massive laser than the armor that will be taken out in two shots, but has the ability to regenerate if only struck once. I'm sorry, but the moment that the Marine's bolter starts firing, the Spartan is going to die, because even provided that he only gets hit once (probably enough to take down his shields, considering that these things kill tanks), even if he hides in cover to regenerate the bolter rounds will just tear through whatever he's behind.

In the long run, I think the Spartans are cooler, but I've got to had this to the Space Marines. They're just to "0mg w1n bu770nz!!!1!!" to lose.


No actually the covenant would bathe their planets/planet? in plasma and watch the atmosphere burn away and then warp away.
Yeah, except anything like this that the Covenant try, the Imperium has seen done better, more often, and on a larger scale. The Imperium routinely forgets dozens of planets due to rounding errors in taxes, so I doubt they'd even notice the Covenant if it weren't for the fact that they're xenos scum. At which point the Imperium would send in one battlecruiser and wipe out the whole covvie fleet.

[Oslecamo]

Hmm, technically, the dreadnought is a SM.

Spartan squad:Ok, mens, the enemy is aproaching the planet, we must prepare the defense...

DEEPSTRIKING

Spartans:OMG what is that shoot it shoot it!
Dread:Finnally, back to war.
Spartans:It grabbed Chef, OMG HE TORE CHEF APART WITH THAT CLAW THINGY!
Dread:I shall crush those who stand before me.
Get away from it shoot it with the heavy weapons!
Dread:It is better to die for the emperor than live for yourself.
Spartans:CRAP IT SHOOTS ALSO! WHAT THE HELL HE TOOK THEM DOWN WITH a SINGLE SHOT! Get behind cover quickly! ARGHHH! IT ISN'T SUPOSED TO PIERCE SOLID ROCK! OMG IT GOT ME TROUGH THE WALL HELLLPPP COME BACK HERE I BEG YOU OMG THAT ISN'T SUPOSED TO BEND THAT WAY ARGHHHHHHHH



As someone comented, the SM are from a much advanced era than spartans.

They have big advantages such as deep striking and much superior weapons. Their enanchments are also good enough that even if they armor is pierced they can keep fighting.

Also, it's hard to do guerrilla tactics when the enemy can nuke buildings with his basic hand weapons.

Even with all the restrictions imposed. So spartans can use their best toys and SM have to use their lowest weapons?

SM can be defeated. But they bother to leave a huge pile of dead enemies behind them. Retreating is not an option, unlike those chicken spartans. SM can take very heavy punishment. Seriously, marines get attacked by freaking demons who are able to twist reality and somehow manage to survive. Master chef didn't have to face giant reality twisting demons no sir.

Make the battle against Karkysans of the imperial guard and we may be geting somehwere near fair fight.

[Icewalker]

I didn't finish the thread, but from the looks of it is rarely to never brought up:

From what I know (which is almost nothing about SM, a good bit about Spartans) the Spartans are just so much smarter that they will be able to out-maneuver and wreck even far superior technology...if you put their weapons/armor on the same power level, then the Spartans win hands-down (I think...). If the weapons are on the same level, it'd be close I'm guessing, and if the weapons/armor are different based on respective worlds, from the sound of it the Spartans, despite superior tactics, simply wouldn't be able to take down the marines before getting run down and shredded.

[....]

No actually the covenant would bathe their planets/planet? in plasma and watch the atmosphere burn away and then warp away.

They'd do that once, and then all of the considerable forces of the Imperium would follow them to High Charity and crush it for the good of the God-Emperor of man.

[Oslecamo]

I didn't finish the thread, but from the looks of it is rarely to never brought up:

From what I know (which is almost nothing about SM, a good bit about Spartans) the Spartans are just so much smarter that they will be able to out-maneuver and wreck even far superior technology...if you put their weapons/armor on the same power level, then the Spartans win hands-down (I think...). If the weapons are on the same level, it'd be close I'm guessing, and if the weapons/armor are different based on respective worlds, from the sound of it the Spartans, despite superior tactics, simply wouldn't be able to take down the marines before getting run down and shredded.

They shall be my finest warriors, these men who give of themselves to me. Like clay I shall mould them, and in the furnace of war forge them. They will be of iron will and steely muscle. In great armour shall I clad them and with the mightiest guns will they be armed. They will be untouched by plague or disease, no sickness will blight them. They will have tactics, strategies and machines so that no foe can best them in battle. They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines and they shall know no fear.

+++ The Emperor of Mankind, on the Creation of the Space Marines +++

Ok, let me present you to some basic facts of the SM:

1-SM may be trained to be fanatical, but they're also trained how to fight properly. They have their own military educational programs and books. They are taught several battle tactics and strategies before being put in the field.

2-They live hundreds of years. During those hundreds of years they fight thousands of battle. Those battle are against enemies as varied as demons, futuristics elfs who can freely teleport around the battlefield and zap your brains with a tought, orcs who can be decapitated and keep fighting and whose weapons defy every law of reality, living robots who wield disintregator weapons and eat heavy weapons for lunch, swarms of insect like aliens who send into battle more troops than SM have ammo and communist uber teck aliens whose ranged weapons can punch even trough SM armor, plus having obsecen ranges. And they somehow manage to survive and win against all of that. That is battle experience that the spartans can only dream off.

3-They have a very good reasonto be fanatic. They live in an universe in wich anyone with an open mind is easy prey to mind controling demons who can literally strike from anywhere.

4-They almost always fight in huge numerical disadvantage. A simple squad of space marines is expected to face and kill whole enemy armies. In freaking open field.


The SM may charge in battle screaming "FOR THE EMPEROR", but that doesn't mean they're stupid. They're smart. And they know how to fight well. They aren't called the emperor's finest just for their uber weapons and genetic enanchments.

[Illiterate Scribe]

I know a full powered punch to the torso or head from a spartan is lethal.

Experimental evidence (that is, Halo running on a window on my laptop right now) demonstrates that this is not the case.

Also, I'll grant you that the Spartans may have an edge in flexibility, but the faith of a Space Marine in the Emperor is not just decorative. Ever heard the reason why Ork guns work? Yeah, it's a more subtle version of that.

The one piece of equipment where I think that the UNSC even rivals the Imperium is in AIs (OK, the Imperium are deliberately shooting themselves even more than usual in the foot here, with their ban on the Legio Cyberneticus, but let's forget that) - lugging, say, Cortana about is going to be easier than bringing about a Tech priest's brain, and more reliable than a machine spirit.

Apart from that, I can't really see any examples of UNSC superiority. Remember, WH40K SMs are supernerfed - the Inquisitor system gives a better approximation.

[Prophaniti]

As I added to the OP, the games are not used as the basis for this. Both Spartans and the Astartes are nerfed in the games, to make it more challenging and because it's not really practical in a game to try to simulate the level of reflexes, strength and speed both are supposed to have.

Poor Spartans. Looks like they're the underdogs. 'Course, that means when they actually win a few rounds those of us who bet on them get more money:smallbiggrin:.


The SM may charge in battle screaming "FOR THE EMPEROR", but that doesn't mean they're stupid. They're smart. And they know how to fight well. They aren't called the emperor's finest just for their uber weapons and genetic enanchments.

Never said they were, just that they tend to be very direct and somewhat arrogant, however well-earned it is. It's easy to see the first few clashes going to the Spartans just because the Astartes underestimate them and walk right into traps and ambushes.


They'd do that once, and then all of the considerable forces of the Imperium would follow them to High Charity and crush it for the good of the God-Emperor of man.

All of the considerable forces of the Imperium are engaged elsewhere. It's a big galaxy and Mankind is set upon on all sides by xenos, heathens and heretics. It would probably take quite a few world-burnings before a substantial fleet could be directed against them, and I don't put Imperial warships very far ahead of Covenant. That would be an interesting space battle as Covenant vessels like Shadow of Intent and Unyielding Heirophant clash with Imperial ones named Vengful Spiritand Pride of the Emperor. Man, they both know how to give ships cool names...

Any more opinions on the side contests? I actually think adding the Covenant to WH40k would be pretty interesting... Would they manage to carve out a space amid the myriad powers of the galaxy? Would they succumb to the corruption of Chaos, or would the Prophets oppose it as do the Tau, Eldar and Imperium? From all accounts, they've got plenty of ships, even with the scale of WH40k. Not enough to be a serious threat by themselves, but enough to cause trouble, considering no faction can devote all their resources to fighting them.

[Icewalker]

I'm not assuming the SM are stupid (although, I was assuming they were less well-trained and had less experience than they are, apparently) but from the sounds of that they may have better battle experience, but the Spartans still seem like they'd be able to out-tactic them...although it'd make it a more even fight if they have equal weaponry.

Damn, I'd totally get into WH40K if it wasn't for the whole 'several hundred dollars and work painting your own little guys who turn out looking crappy anyways' thing.

Footnote: the second part of that statement may only apply to me, but applies nonetheless.
:smallsigh:

[ZeroNumerous]

Never said they were, just that they tend to be very direct and somewhat arrogant, however well-earned it is. It's easy to see the first few clashes going to the Spartans just because the Astartes underestimate them and walk right into traps and ambushes.

Traps like.. What, pray tell? A couple of SPARTANs hiding behind a wall to pop-out from behind you and shoot you in the back? Space Marines see through walls, atleast heat-wise. Mines? Ever seen a mine in Halo? I sure haven't. At best, the SPARTAN Laser may burn a pin-sized hole through a Space Marine. Even then, he laughs and blows the SPARTAN's brains out with his pistol-sized rocket-firing 20mm auto-loading bazooka.

Hell, you could give the SPARTANs the assistance of the Elites, the UNSC, and the entire remaining Covenant fleet. It won't matter one bit.


All of the considerable forces of the Imperium are engaged elsewhere. It's a big galaxy and Mankind is set upon on all sides by xenos, heathens and heretics. It would probably take quite a few world-burnings before a substantial fleet could be directed against them, and I don't put Imperial warships very far ahead of Covenant.

I'm sorry, but the underlined portion tells me that you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to WH40k. Pit a single cruiser, who by itself can perform Exterminatus, against any Covenant ship and you'll have a bunch of dead xenos floating in space. And thats not even addressing a Grand Cruiser, battlecruiser, or a battleship. Forerunners-forbid the Covenant face a half-staffed Battle Barge.


From all accounts, they've got plenty of ships, even with the scale of WH40k. Not enough to be a serious threat by themselves, but enough to cause trouble, considering no faction can devote all their resources to fighting them.

As I stated before, and I'm still sorry for saying this, but it appears that you don't understand WH40k.

Orks: One lone rock crashes on a Covenant planet. In days, the planet is non-responsive. The orks have billions of these rocks. The Flood is nothing compared to the never-ending tide of feral greenskins. Stopping an ork infestation requires burning the planet to a crisp.

Eldar: Mind-crush. Guess what: Every eldar alive can do it.

Imperium: Do you know how many men are stationed on a planet to defend it? Even a backwater world forgotten by the Imperium due to a single rounding error during tax-season? Millions. Not just "a" million. MillionS. Cadia, the most heavily defended world in the entire Imperium, has a mere 850 million people on it. 75% of which are in the military. Oh, and lets not forget something..

That is only the people on the planet. Not part of the 612 other regiments serving on other planets of the Imperium.

Necrons: You die. I don't care what you are, you die. Fighting any necron means losing. Even Space Marines don't stand much of a chance against one.

Tau: Covenant ground-troops wouldn't even see the things sniping them. And even if they did, it wouldn't matter. Jackals are jokers compared to these guys.

Chaos: "They either kill you, or convert you."

[Raiser Blade]

As far as the covenant are concerned. I don't know how many ships they have exactly but they have a lot of them. I wouldn't be suprised if they had thousands and thousands of their battle cruisers.


Now I don't know a lot about space marines but apparently the OP was crazy to even suggest a fight between a spartan and one.


Seriously you guys are describing walking battlestations.

[Raiser Blade]

Experimental evidence (that is, Halo running on a window on my laptop right now) demonstrates that this is not the case.

Also, I'll grant you that the Spartans may have an edge in flexibility, but the faith of a Space Marine in the Emperor is not just decorative. Ever heard the reason why Ork guns work? Yeah, it's a more subtle version of that.

The one piece of equipment where I think that the UNSC even rivals the Imperium is in AIs (OK, the Imperium are deliberately shooting themselves even more than usual in the foot here, with their ban on the Legio Cyberneticus, but let's forget that) - lugging, say, Cortana about is going to be easier than bringing about a Tech priest's brain, and more reliable than a machine spirit.

Apart from that, I can't really see any examples of UNSC superiority. Remember, WH40K SMs are supernerfed - the Inquisitor system gives a better approximation.



How fun would the HALO game have been if you could run around and one-punch everything to death?

In the books master chief without his armor caved a marines chest in with a punch. And he was still getting used to being genitically altered.

[Rogue 7]

I'd actually give the spartans a fighting chance here. They don't match up to a Space Marine for toughness or strength. However, 3 battle rifle rounds are at least going to make a dent in a marine's armor. Admittedly, bolters'll do quite a bit more, but these aren't guardsmen with flashlights here. Spartans have the advantage in shields and speed, important factors on the battlefield (speed at least). Yes, I know 40K fluff. I know how tough marines are. A sniper to the brain'll still put them down for good. A hail of lead will do some damage. The spartans won't win in a straight fight, and they'd recognize that. They'd keep their distance, outmaneuvering and ambushing the Marines. If they can't do that, they lose, plain and simple, so that's where the real battle occurs- maneuvering and positioning so that they can strike when it's best for them.

[WNxHasoroth]

Ok wow, this is fun.

Plasma Sword = Power Sword
Thunder Hammer = Gravity Hammer
Spartan Laser = Lascannon

Right? Ok. In that case, Space Marines get one tiny advantage, we're playing them by the fluff. Which means (if you want game stats) we're using Movie Marine rules (some White Dwarf a while back). A squad of ten marines was worth 1,500 points (roundabouts). An opposing army of an equal amount of points could have in excess of a hundred men. So when your posing an equal number of Spartans your beginning to look at problems.

This isn't even going into the stats of Fluff Loyal Marines, where they could take lascannon hits etc and keep going, and where the power armor save was boosted from a 3+.

Would like to add most Human weapons from Halo lore would be of no effect on Space Marines as game rules already set a precedent (autoguns), which are equal to lasguns in their next-to-uselessness.

[Zenos]

About those people who say the SPARTAN's could ambush the SM's I will quote Farseer Taldeer in Dwan of War:

"You cannot surprise a Space Marine, only confirm his suspicions."

[Oslecamo]

Never said they were, just that they tend to be very direct and somewhat arrogant, however well-earned it is. It's easy to see the first few clashes going to the Spartans just because the Astartes underestimate them and walk right into traps and ambushes.



You can never suprise a Space marine. They expect treachery at every turn. You can only fulfill their expectations-Eldar farseer


I don't know if you noticed, but since the Horus Heresy, any SM who shows the slightest sign of arrogance will probably be striped out of his equipment and sent back to the main base for some severe disciplining. The reason why there are chaos space marines it's exactly because they started to grow too much arrogant. So SM comanders take lots of precautions to supress any sign of arrogance.

Also, the spartans won't easily outmanuever the SM. Why? Because the SM have good experience fighting the following enemies:

Eldar and dark Eldar:easily teleport around the battlefield. They have lots of troops with powerull psychic powers. They are masters at the creation of illusions. They are able to attack and disappear before you even noticed your forces are dead.

Chaos forces:can corrupt your own troops under your nose and you'll only notice when in the begginning of battle they shoot you instead of the enemy. What may look like a regular troop can sacrifice himself to summon mighty demons who will even make SM **** in their pants. The are the main reason why the Inquisition was created, to find and destroy the slightest signs of treachery before they turn upon you.

Tau:Seriously, these guys see themselves as hunters and you as the prey. Their rangeds weapons make the SM ranged weapons look like clubs. They have the best freaking stealth technology of the galaxy. They are easily able to either hide for days expecting a weakness from the enemy and then attack ing with full force it or using baits to lure you into ambushes where you sudenly find yourself completely surrounded by Tau fire warriors out of nowhere.


The SM have fought all of these races, who are great adepts at outmanuvering, guerilla tactics, ambushes and traps. The blood ravens, one of the SM chapters, is literally fanatic for knowledge and has spent centuries compiling information about all those races from the battles they fought. The ultramarines, another chapter, will take that information and put it into codexes to be distributed among all SM recruits so they can learn of their enemies forces and weakness.

So, what can the Spartans do that will suprise the SM? Can they move in the battlefield faster than the Eldar, whose military leaders not only live milleniums but they spend those milleniums training nonstop their battle tactics?

Can they hide and ambush as well as the Tau, who don't have the SM closed mind against new technologies and thus wield the strongest weapons of the game who also happen to have fantastic range plus stealth suits that make you invisible and personal jetpacks to fly around the battlefield faster than you can see them?

Can they fight as dirty as the Chaos Space marines who never show their true strenght untill the last minute and have demonic chaotic forces running trough their veins?

I highly doubt so. Anything the Spartans can do, the SM will have seen an hundred times.

[LordVader]

I didn't finish the thread, but from the looks of it is rarely to never brought up:

From what I know (which is almost nothing about SM, a good bit about Spartans) the Spartans are just so much smarter that they will be able to out-maneuver and wreck even far superior technology...if you put their weapons/armor on the same power level, then the Spartans win hands-down (I think...). If the weapons are on the same level, it'd be close I'm guessing, and if the weapons/armor are different based on respective worlds, from the sound of it the Spartans, despite superior tactics, simply wouldn't be able to take down the marines before getting run down and shredded.

Nuh-uh. I have knowledge of both worlds, so here's my take.

Space Marines are even more accomplished soldiers than Spartans. Many of them have served for dozens of years, and their leaders have hundreds of years experience.

SMs also have superior armor, and at least two of any vital organ, plus the ability to spit blood, have acidic blood, etc.

Basically, the Space Marines have dozens of years more experience than the best spartan, Master Chief.

[Artemician]

To sum up what most of the people have been saying so far:

SPARTANs are the super soldiers of the 25th century.

Space Marines are the super soldiers of the 40 000th century.

SPARTANs are proto-space Marines. The Marines are superior in almost every way to SPARTANs, because of the improvements in technology, biomechanics, and weapons. And that is why they win. It is like comparing a squad of elite 9th century ninja with a modern day SAS team.

[Selrahc]

The Spartans could win a sprint race though. Thats something :smalltongue:

Honestly though, I think the Spartans are close. But they're not quite good enough at anything that matters.

Having said that though, I think some people are way overestimating Bolters. Nuking houses in a single shot? More powerful than tank cannons? Definitely not. They are really powerful guns, but they aren't that good.

[Oslecamo]

The Spartans could win a sprint race though. Thats something :smalltongue:

Honestly though, I think the Spartans are close. But they're not quite good enough at anything that matters.

Having said that though, I think some people are way overestimating Bolters. Nuking houses in a single shot? More powerful than tank cannons? Definitely not. They are really powerful guns, but they aren't that good.

Well, the imperial guard elite soldiers, the storm troopers, would be at least as fast as the spartans, if not faster. They wear light armor and also get some genetic enanchments. And I guess that what the space marines would call "cheap quality" enanchments would be called "uber powerfull" enanchments by the Spartans. They had millions of years to develop them.

And the bolter is one of the best weapons in the Warhammer game. It can pierce most types of armor with good sucess. However, we're testing them against Warhammer 40.000 armor. The Spartans armor and buildings are far less advanced. It would be like a pre-historic man with a shield of wood and leather trying to defend from a soldier with a machine gun loaded with armor piercing bullets. The shield of the pre-hitoric man would protect him from most things of his time, but a armor piercing machine gun, alas, it's something he couldn't even dream off.

The Spartans will probably be so awed by the SM superiority they will kiss their feet.

I sugest we make the duel between the imperial guard stormtroopers and the Spartans. The Storm troopers also get some genetic enanchments but they have to use the cheap weapons and armor of their time. Wich would compare more fairly to Spartans equipment.

[Prophaniti]

Obviously a lot of love for WH40k here (which despite accusations I am quite familiar with, used to play a lot and have read most of the novels. It continues to be one of my favorite fictional universes). I think the reason so many people think it's no contest, and make statements about Astartes ripping tanks apart bare-handed (please cite reference, must've missed that one) is the difference in how they're portrayed in their respective media. WH40k just feels more grandious, more over-the-top, just plain BIGGER, and by extentsion everything in it feels bigger. The purpose of this vs is to show the similarities. A human in one is a human in the other. Every bit of fluff on a STANDARD SMs (not a specific character or unusual individual) strength and speed is matched by very similar fluff on Spartans, with one exception.

SMs have many implants and augments designed specifically to enhance their survivability and enable them to live in environments that would kill a normal human. While many of these, such as the redundant organs, would tip the scales in their favor, there is no practical use for their acidic spittle (it's just their spit, not their blood read it again they're not Aliens) or their ability to eat things like wood in my scenario. Their ability to rest without sleeping only comes into play in scenario 2, IF things get drawn out.

The organs and chem enhancements are useful as they enable them to keep fighting after suffering injuries such as having limbs blown off, but even an astartes will shut down after a few minutes. The Flight of the Eisenstien has an example as the main character, an above average SM, has a leg blown off. Yes, he does continue to fight, but after a few minutes even his enhanced physiology cannot sustain him and he collapses. There is only one instance of something similar in Halo 'verse, from Ghosts of Onyx, where a Spartan-III is rearguard and gets inside the doors after being killed by enemy fire. He's already dead, but new chemicals added to the creation process keep his body and mind functioning for just a few minutes more.

So yes, survivability goes to SMs, but not by so much if we add the new drugs to the Spartan creation process. Armor protection is about equal, but only because of a Spartan's shields. Weapons does favor SMs but only for bolter vs any halo rifle. A spartan laser is equivelant to a lascannon, which can kill a SM with direct hit, not just put 'a pinhole' in their armor. A 50cal anti-material rifle can still kill a SM with a headshot or one to a weak point in the armor, joints and so forth. Some of the covenant weapons look a little better, for those who know how devestating plasma is in 40k.

Speaking of covenant... The DO have a lot of ships, likely in the order of hundreds of thousands, possibly millions if all were mobilized, you only see fractions of their fleet in the games or the books. I know this is not enough to seriously threaten any faction in 40k, but it would be enough for them to hold their own if they're careful. There are covenant vessels described as large as all but perhaps the largrest Imperial craft. Nothing I've read indicates that void shields are any better than Covenant shields, they go down just as often from direct hits. Imperial warship armament is substantialy better than UNSC, so that levels the field, but they don't have guided plasma missiles, an undeniably potent weapon that would melt through an unprotected Imperial ship just as easily as through a UNSC one. Remember, except for a couple of tacticaly brilliant manuevers by UNSC's finest, the Covenant fleet dominated every engagement unless outnumbered, which seldom happened. I'm saying I put their ships about on par with a typical Imperial warship.

I never said either Spartans or Covenant would dominate, just that it'd be close, and one hell of a fun fight.

[Selrahc]

Spartans run at about 60 KM/H. Thats faster than Space Marines by a wide margin.

The Bolter is not one of the best weapons in the 40K game. I.E, the tabletop wargame. Its actually a fairly average troop weapon. In the fluff its substantially better.

But some statements about the bolt gun on this thread, just don't tally even with its better performance in fluff. It has some impresive specs, but it isn't the equivalent of a modern day tanks main battle gun. It doesn't have a substantial blast radius. It couldn't tear down a building in a single shot. Humans can survive a hit from it while unarmoured if they don't get hit in the head, or the torso.

Claiming that the difference in capability between the weapons that the Spartans use, and the weapons space marines use is equivalent to the differences between a stick and an armour piercing machine gun is clearly an exaggeration. Warhammer 40,000 armour isn't that far ahead of Spartan stuff.

[Prophaniti]

*snip*

They did not have 'millions' of years to develop anything. The 'verse is set 40 thousand years ahead. That's why it's called WH 40k. A millenium, despite the name is a mere 1,000 years. Jeez, people talk about me not knowing the 'verse.... In the current Imperium, technology has fallen greatly from what man was capable of before the Age of Strife, and threatens to continue to fall as more ancient tech breaks with no one knowing how to fix it.

Plasma weapons in the Imperium are prized ancient relics that are nigh-irreplacable, whereas Covenant, and thanks to reverse-engineering, UNSC can manufacture them with ease. Spartan armor also has self-recharging personal shields, a feat that cannot be duplicated by surviving Imperial tech, save for a few prized artifacts held by important and powerful people. Imperial tech, because of their attitude and dogma, is not what it could be, and not as far ahead as so many people think.

Also, I don't recall reading anything about Imperial Stormtroopers that has them denting hull plating barehanded or outrunning vehicles, both of which SPARTANs can do. In many books and rulebook fluff short stories, SMs are stated as being fast DESPITE being hampered by armor, while SPARTAN armor is stated as further enhancing their already blinding speed. There is no way Imp Guard, even Stormtroopers, are on the level of the SPARTANs.

Bolters are not magical 'I win' buttons, and are nowhere near the best weapons on the 40k table-top game, which I already stated we're not useing as a basis. They are certainly more devestating than any standard UNSC rifle, but they're not equivilant to tank shells and will not blast through Spartan shields AND armor as though it were wood and leather. Master chief, when testing the FIRST model of the armor, survived a nearly direct hit from a fighter bombardment, ordnance-class weapons which the bolter certainly is not. There have been updates and enhancements to the armor since then and it is nothing to be sneered at, even by an Astartes.

EDIT: Exactly, Selrahc.

[A Rainy Knight]

The Kasrkin would probably be a better match for the Spartans, though they're probably a bit weaker. They're normal humans as I remember it, simply armed with better weapons and equipment than the rest of the Imperial Guard.

Spacie armor does not hamper their movement due to the Black Carapace interface, which links the armor into their nervous system and makes it move along with them. In fact, it actually augments their strength and speed.

In my opinion, UNSC Marines < Kasrkin < Spartans < Space Marines.

[Raiser Blade]

They did not have 'millions' of years to develop anything. The 'verse is set 40 thousand years ahead. That's why it's called WH 40k. A millenium, despite the name is a mere 1,000 years. Jeez, people talk about me not knowing the 'verse.... In the current Imperium, technology has fallen greatly from what man was capable of before the Age of Strife, and threatens to continue to fall as more ancient tech breaks with no one knowing how to fix it.

Plasma weapons in the Imperium are prized ancient relics that are nigh-irreplacable, whereas Covenant, and thanks to reverse-engineering, UNSC can manufacture them with ease. Spartan armor also has self-recharging personal shields, a feat that cannot be duplicated by surviving Imperial tech, save for a few prized artifacts held by important and powerful people. Imperial tech, because of their attitude and dogma, is not what it could be, and not as far ahead as so many people think.

Also, I don't recall reading anything about Imperial Stormtroopers that has them denting hull plating barehanded or outrunning vehicles, both of which SPARTANs can do. In many books and rulebook fluff short stories, SMs are stated as being fast DESPITE being hampered by armor, while SPARTAN armor is stated as further enhancing their already blinding speed. There is no way Imp Guard, even Stormtroopers, are on the level of the SPARTANs.


So plasma > Space marines armor? If so then the spartans will destroy the space marines.

Also the covenant had thousands of ships attacking the humans and they were only the "scouting party" so to speak. I the covenant ran into a serious threat (which the human weren't until towards the end of the series) tey could probably mobilize millions of ships. Also apparently plasma is better than what the imperium has and the covenant ships only fire plasma.

[Selrahc]

So plasma > Space marines armor? If so then the spartans will destroy the space marines.

Not necessarily. 40K plasma weapons>Space Marine power armour. Haloverse plasma weapons are on a much lower power setting*. Not all plasma is the same.

*40K Plasma weapons are tank killers, and are just fricking devastating weapons.



Also the covenant had thousands of ships attacking the humans and they were only the "scouting party" so to speak. I the covenant ran into a serious threat (which the human weren't until towards the end of the series) tey could probably mobilize millions of ships. Also apparently plasma is better than what the imperium has and the covenant ships only fire plasma.

Hooboy... I really wouldn't try and argue against the 40K naval power.

Let me just give you a quick run through:
Battleships the size of small moons
Really big guns (As in the size of cities)
Planet busting guns in each big ship (As in, to the same standard as the covenants glassing. Not literally smashing the planet ala the Deathstar).
Lots of these giant kill everything ships
Countless escorts and scout ships, each one of which has at least the size and firepower of a covenant main battleship
Combat teleportation technology, to put boarding parties of elite troops on the bridge of enemy ships
Incredibly good fighter squadrons



On the ground, in conventional squad level combat the covenant aren't too far behind, technology wise. Hell, with their big walky things they could even fight some of the lesser Titans. But in the space arena the Imperium kicks it up a gear. The sheer scale of their might is pretty crazy.

[A Rainy Knight]

Halo plasma weapons seem to be just another futuristic weapon that throws the word "plasma" around. The Spacie plasma rifles and cannons have the actual stuff, that is, a dense high energy gas. (I might be wrong, just recalling from last year's science class.) Of course, that's what makes Warhammer plasma guns so dangerous compared to Covenant guns, which just let off a little steam. As opposed to exploding.

[Belteshazzar]

Fortunately for the Covenant they are able to do something that no race in Warhammer can do. Instantaneous travel. This combined with their armor melting plasma cannons would make an effective powerhouse. The only weakness I can see would be the Prophets who are psionic and it could make them warp susceptible.

P.S. and if we were going by fluff only then their weapons can easily melt ship armor like slag and their energy swords could slice any known material aside from other energy fields (so a power sword 'may' parry it but a chainsword wont.)

[Raiser Blade]

Covenant: Warp in glass a few hundred planents, Warp back.

Repeat.


Would that be possible against the imperium?

[RandomLogic]

Covenant: Warp in glass a few hundred planents, Warp back.

Repeat.


Would that be possible against the imperium?

Sure, but the Imperium could do exactly the same thing. Also, the millions of planets are orders of magnitude more than the hundreds that are glassed.

I think this would be an interesting contest in terms of space warfare, but a 1v1 Space Marine hands down. In fact, I'd bet you could remove his armor and give him his knife and he'd win.

[Raiser Blade]

Sure, but the Imperium could do exactly the same thing. Also, the millions of planets are orders of magnitude more than the hundreds that are glassed.

Oh well that belteshazzar guy said that the covenant could do what no race in warhammer could. I was misinformed.



I think this would be an interesting contest in terms of space warfare, but a 1v1 Space Marine hands down. In fact, I'd bet you could remove his armor and give him his knife and he'd win.


Do the words *BOOM HEADSHOT* mean anything to you? A spartan would put several ounces of lead through the unprotected space marine head before the SM could do anything.

If you meant no guns just knives the spartan in his armor still wins. The armor would equalize the strenth differences and the spartan is so much faster than the space marine. A spartan could probably rip a space marines throat out before the space marine does anything with a knife.

[Selrahc]

Covenant: Warp in glass a few hundred planents, Warp back.

Repeat.


Would that be possible against the imperium?

Sure. A few hundred planets however, is a drop in the ocean. But they'd have to stick to systems without sizable fleet detachments, and if they ever try to glass an actual planet that matters, the defences against them will be so severe that they would have a really hard time. City sized planetary defence guns(plural) are somewhat of a norm on forge worlds and hive planets. Depending on the world, ranging from crippling a few ships to repelling a full scale invasion.

Meanwhile, the Imperium would launch an unstoppable crusade and raze the covenant from the galaxy.

The travel is not instantaneous, it always takes an amount of time(Time to calculate the route and other such stuff. You can be travelling for several weeks at least). And with the rather short distances involved in traversing the Haloverse, I'd be hesitant to believe that they have such a major speed advantage.

Still, the covenant have the capacity to really screw the Imperium up for awhile. Picking off important resource worlds, death worlds like Catachan which provide recruits, new colonies or even Space Marine home worlds. They would be able to cause some real nasty damage. But ultimate victory is never on the cards.


and if we were going by fluff only then their weapons can easily melt ship armor like slag

Good job the 40K ships have literal miles of reinforced adamantium armour, all wrapped up in futuristic void shields.


Do the words *BOOM HEADSHOT* mean anything to you? A spartan would put several ounces of lead through the unprotected space marine head before the SM could do anything.

While I'd definitely give the win to the Spartan in that scenario, Space Marines have a heavily reinforced skull. Capable of absorbing shock, and deflecting small arms fire.

[Prophaniti]

Well, yes, I feel pretty sure haloverse weapons fire the same thing, at least in the books (yes it's superheated gas, ionized gas technically. generally hydrogen since it's the easiest to get to that state). Perhaps a smaller amount of it than typical 40k plasma weapons, as it seems to do less damage, but not by much. Plasma bolts still melt holes walls and people and anything else they hit. They don't explode on the game because no one would use them if they did, also only Imperial plasma weapons suffer a danger of exploding, because of the aforementioned technological backslide. No other race that fields them suffers from that danger, at least back when I played...

Where do you people get your info? First a bolter can kill a tank, then the Imperium is millions of years old, now suddenly Imperial Battleships are the size of the Deathstar... No Imperial Battleship is the size of even a small moon, sizes are stated about some of them, and the largest I recall was less than 20km long, still pretty damn big, but much smaller than any moon. The enormous Imperial Fists station Phalanx is the size of a small moon and it is stated as having docking facilities for multiple main battleships. I equate the size of this to the size of High Charity in Halo, so ship size seems pretty level to me. I'd put an Imperial ship and a covenant ship of roughly equal tonnage on the same power level, personally.

Everything I've read about Karksins gives me the impression of them on level with helljumpers, maybe a rung or two higher. Certainly not on the Spartan's level. In terms of raw prowess, I'd agree with Rainy Knight's scale. The main thing that makes the competition really interesting is the demonstrated tactical brilliance of the Spartans, whereas Astartes, as I mentioned earlier, tend to fight more like a swat team. Works very well for them, since they are extremely tough, and I'm not claiming they can't do or try anything else, just stating how most chapters standard engagements work.

[GoC]

Fortunately for the Covenant they are able to do something that no race in Warhammer can do. Instantaneous travel. This combined with their armor melting plasma cannons would make an effective powerhouse. The only weakness I can see would be the Prophets who are psionic and it could make them warp susceptible.

P.S. and if we were going by fluff only then their weapons can easily melt ship armor like slag and their energy swords could slice any known material aside from other energy fields (so a power sword 'may' parry it but a chainsword wont.)

This is starting to sound like the Federation (Star Trek) vs. the Galactic Empire (Star Wars):smallannoyed:

[A Rainy Knight]

Although both the Imperium and the Covenant have "warp travel," in all likelihood the Covenant would have the edge there. The Imperial ships rely on the Astronomicon to avoid being lost in the warp, and even then the daemons and such make it a pretty stormy sea.

And I'm not really sure about the plasma weapons that the Covenant have. Based on the game, they don't have the power of a Warhammer plasma rifle, but I've never read any of the novels.

[Prophaniti]

While I'd definitely give the win to the Spartan in that scenario, Space Marines have a heavily reinforced skull. Capable of absorbing shock, and deflecting small arms fire.

No more than a Spartans is. They cover the augment precess pretty well in Fall of Reach and their bones are made nigh-unbreakable. Think Wolverine, minus the claws... and the cool sideburns.

Although both the Imperium and the Covenant have "warp travel," in all likelihood the Covenant would have the edge there. The Imperial ships rely on the Astronomicon to avoid being lost in the warp, and even then the daemons and such make it a pretty stormy sea.
Space travel differences are hard to reconcile between the two 'verses... dunno if I want to touch that. I was merely making comparisons of their battle capabilities.

[Belteshazzar]

Okay as long as the Covenant have coordinates for where they wanted to go they could get there. The reason the were searching so long for the Halos is because the galaxy is a big place. No really, it is a big place and the exact objects they were looking for were only vaguely hinted at in a probably mistranslated Forerunner history-book mistaken for a holy text. It would be like a Zulu tribesman trying to find an obscure gas station in Kentucky with only a travel brochure. They could go anywhere instantaneously (and in some cases even marginally faster, yes I do mean that, they sometimes arrive a few seconds before they left) but they ran an incredible possibility of going nowhere in particular, like five billion lightyears from the nearest gas station on a random jump, or possibly the interior of a local sun.

The Imperium on the other hand, has a much slower speed (possibly years) and more limited route through the warp because of warp shadows, Astronomicam ect. The Eldar can move much faster, but they need webway gates at both entrances. Orks can hardly even be considered as the prefer giant asteroids which are hardly known for their expediency. The only ones who could rival them would be the Necrons but even then they are not teleporting.

[Selrahc]

now suddenly Imperial Battleships are the size of the Deathstar...

No.... I didn't make that claim.

I said small moon. And it is the size of a small moon, since the ships can be 30KM long. I could have said large asteroid but that would have been kind of meaningless.

The capital ships are really really big that was the point I was making.

High Charity is the covenants space bound Holy City. It is an exceptional case, and should probably be compared to exceptional cases like the Rock (Size of a planet), or the Blackstone Fortresses(Size of the deathstar pretty much), or the Imperial Fist fortress monastery, or any of the grand space stations the Imperium has.

Looking at vessels like "Truth and Reconciliation", we can see the general size of a covenant warship. It would be dwarfed even by the escorts of the imperium. And the covenant doesn't have even a numbers advantage over the Imperium.




Everything I've read about Karksins gives me the impression of them on level with helljumpers, maybe a rung or two higher.

Substantially higher than that. The helljumpers are a fairly standard elite military forces operation. The Kasrkin are trained from birth in a climate of total war, then handpicked from amongst their peers to receive the best training and equipment, and then surgically enhanced even further, and then subjected to missions that are incredibly tough, seven for special forces work.

I wouldn't put them on a level with Spartans though.



No more than a Spartans is. They cover the augment precess pretty well in Fall of Reach and their bones are made nigh-unbreakable. Think Wolverine, minus the claws... and the cool sideburns.

I know. I've read the books.:smalltongue: Not wolverine level though. Just a lot tougher than a regular persons bone. ITs pretty much the same deal.

Its kind of irrelevant to the point I was making though. I wasn't saying "Space Marines are better because they have this thing" I was saying "Space Marines won't go down to a cheap headshot very easily"

[Prophaniti]

No.... I didn't make that claim.

I said small moon. And it is the size of a small moon, since the ships can be 30KM long. I could have said large asteroid but that would have been kind of meaningless.

The capital ships are really really big that was the point I was making.

High Charity is the covenants space bound Holy City. It is an exceptional case, and should probably be compared to exceptional cases like the Rock (Size of a planet), or the Blackstone Fortresses(Size of the deathstar pretty much), or the Imperial Fist fortress monastery, or any of the grand space stations the Imperium has.Sorry about the Deathstar thing, it was just a frustrated exaggeration. Moons, however, usually have a diameter measured in thousands of km(earth's is nearly 3500), hundreds at least, rather than tens. Maybe you mean moons like Diemos (mars' outer moon), which is only around 13km wide. There are stated lengths of ships on both sides longer than that. I did compare High Charity with the Imperial Fist's station (Phalanx), because it is the size of a typical moon and still has warp capabilities like High Charity. I don't think the Rock does, but I could be wrong. Phalanx is stated as having docking facilities for many main line battleships and lots of destroyers and frigates. As I said, I don't recall any Imperial ships stated as longer than 20km or so.


Looking at vessels like "Truth and Reconciliation", we can see the general size of a covenant warship. It would be dwarfed even by the escorts of the imperium. And the covenant doesn't have even a numbers advantage over the Imperium.Truth and Reconciliation was I believe a destroyer, I think. Anyway the largest ships in the Covenant armada are Carriers, which are described as pretty damn big, though I'll have to look it up again to get any actual lengths they mention. As I said earlier, the biggest Imperial ships are probably larger than the biggest Covenant, but ships of that size are few and far between, there's a lot more frigates, destroyers and regular battleships, all of which have comparable covenant ship classes.

I know. I've read the books.:smalltongue: Not wolverine level though. Just a lot tougher than a regular persons bone. ITs pretty much the same deal.

Its kind of irrelevant to the point I was making though. I wasn't saying "Space Marines are better because they have this thing" I was saying "Space Marines won't go down to a cheap headshot very easily"The headshot I was refering to was with the sniper rifle, which is a 50cal anti-material rifle. It might not penetrate the ciurass of a SM but the helmet, which must be weaker because of the size and sensitivity of the instruments in it, is another story. I'm thinking a headshot would shatter the helmet pretty well, and no skull, however enhanced, is even going to slow it down.

[Belteshazzar]

Yeah, for whatever ceramic ossification or whatever they do to make the Spartan's bones so strong combined with their pituitary modifications to make them into 8ft Olympians. It isn't near as impressive as the multiple, redundant organs, black carapace, or somatic healing state of the Emperor's Finest.

P.S. All these vs threads make me want them to make An Ultimate Showdown of Ultimate Destinies game. Only then can we truely know if Mario Bros vs Spartans vs Black Mesa vs Space Marines vs Black Mesa vs Sam Fisher, vs Megaman, vs Tau, ect. With so much concentrated awesome the player would be the real winner.

[JellyPooga]

I apologise if I unwittingly slight the Spartans here, but I know very little about the HALO 'verse and significantly more about the 40K one. With that in mind...

First off, a question: Who chooses the field of combat in round 3? If the set up is essentially the same as round 2 and the Marines win the toss, couldn't they just choose to fight in hard vacuum? Sure a Marine can't survive that long in vacuum without his power armour, but from what I've read here, I didn't get the impression that Spartans could survive any better than your joe average human.

Hell, even in round 2 if the Marines win the toss they can opt for hard vacuum as the field of battle as (again, only from what I've gleaned from what's been said here in this thread) the Spartans probably haven't had much experience or training for fighting in the dead of space, whereas a Marine...well, in short, has. That's even given that the Spartan armour protects the occupant from the deleterious effects of a vacuum (don't you just love the word "deleterious"?:smalltongue: ).

On a tangent from the OP, does the fight neccesarily have to be between Spartans and loyalist Marines? I suspect that the Spartans might have more trouble verses the squad of millenia old Chaos Marines, some of whom have literally been fighting non-stop for hundreds of years, others of whom have been killed several times and ressurected by their daemonic lords to carry on the eternal wars that rage within the Eye of Terror and others still who are possessed by or are daemons themselves, granting them even greater strength, speed, intelligence, psionic powers, tentacles, claws, beaks and all manner of weird and wonderful attributes...and that's just the tip of the iceberg of the craziness that are the Chaos Marines...just a thought...

[....]

There's a lot more SM than Spartans.

Hell, there's probably more SM/Guardsmen than all the humans in the Halo universe.

[Belteshazzar]

I apologise if I unwittingly slight the Spartans here, but I know very little about the HALO 'verse and significantly more about the 40K one. With that in mind...

First off, a question: Who chooses the field of combat in round 3? If the set up is essentially the same as round 2 and the Marines win the toss, couldn't they just choose to fight in hard vacuum? Sure a Marine can't survive that long in vacuum without his power armour, but from what I've read here, I didn't get the impression that Spartans could survive any better than your joe average human.
.

Sorry but Master Chief road bareback on a warping spacecraft then atmosphere surfed on a broken plate of the shielding all the way home in the start of Halo 3. His only injury. A few bruises and his armor was locked up. As for surviving unarmored it is a good chance that Spartans would survive significantly longer than normal humans if they take 0-g space combat so easily.

[Selrahc]

Hell, even in round 2 if the Marines win the toss they can opt for hard vacuum as the field of battle as (again, only from what I've gleaned from what's been said here in this thread) the Spartans probably haven't had much experience or training for fighting in the dead of space, whereas a Marine...well, in short, has. That's even given that the Spartan armour protects the occupant from the deleterious effects of a vacuum (don't you just love the word "deleterious"? ).


Spartans train in vacuums, and their suits are fully pressurized, and even have special magnetized boots for fighting on the outsides of space ships.

EDIT

As for surviving unarmored it is a good chance that Spartans would survive significantly longer than normal humans if they take 0-g space combat so easily.

But they aren't genegineered with any special vacuum conditions stuff. So Space Marines probably do survive better.

[JellyPooga]

Sorry but Master Chief road bareback on a warping spacecraft then atmosphere surfed on a broken plate of the shielding all the way home in the start of Halo 3. His only injury. A few bruises and his armor was locked up.

I'd like to see a saddle for a warping spacecraft...:smallbiggrin:

Fair doos...like I said, I know all but nothing about the HALO-verse

edit: ^ same goes Selrahc :smallwink:

[A Rainy Knight]

Imagine, if you will, the Spartans and Marines fighting in a vacuum to the tune of "On The Blue Danube." :smalltongue:

[Prophaniti]

Sorry but Master Chief road bareback on a warping spacecraft then atmosphere surfed on a broken plate of the shielding all the way home in the start of Halo 3. His only injury. A few bruises and his armor was locked up. As for surviving unarmored it is a good chance that Spartans would survive significantly longer than normal humans if they take 0-g space combat so easily.

Halo 3 does not pick up immediately after 2, there's some fighting on earth for a bit. The opening sequence is actually him in a damaged Pelican, he can't save it so he bails just before it blows up. The Halo novels have a similar event, but involving the other spartans. They do lose one or two in the impact. I'm curious as to whether an astartes could duplicate that particular feat, since the sci-fi explanation involves a specific component of the MJOLNIR armor (the gel layer mentioned in the game) which is not present in SM power armor.

As far as 0-g combat goes, both spartans and astartes are well trained in it. I think it would be a great arena for round 2. If we're talking vacuum as well, no, neither of them can survive for any significant period of time without their suits. The SM may live longer, but not enough to even start gloating about it.

[WNxHasoroth]

Rebuttal to any sort of Covenant > Space Marines comment:

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f219/Hasoroth/Covenantbitches.jpg

[Illiterate Scribe]

Spartans run at about 60 KM/H. Thats faster than Space Marines by a wide margin.

The Bolter is not one of the best weapons in the 40K game. I.E, the tabletop wargame. Its actually a fairly average troop weapon. In the fluff its substantially better.

But some statements about the bolt gun on this thread, just don't tally even with its better performance in fluff. It has some impresive specs, but it isn't the equivalent of a modern day tanks main battle gun. It doesn't have a substantial blast radius. It couldn't tear down a building in a single shot. Humans can survive a hit from it while unarmoured if they don't get hit in the head, or the torso.

Claiming that the difference in capability between the weapons that the Spartans use, and the weapons space marines use is equivalent to the differences between a stick and an armour piercing machine gun is clearly an exaggeration. Warhammer 40,000 armour isn't that far ahead of Spartan stuff.

Aha, but it's more accurate to use, say, the rules for Inquisitor if we're concerned with bolt weapons - as an abstract figure, pistols did 2d6 damage, small arms 2d6+2, and bolters 2d10+5. A fairly big step up, and enough to down (but not instakill) a pretty tough soldier with regularity.

[Prophaniti]

Rebuttal to any sort of Covenant > Space Marines comment:
Heh, that's awesome. 'Course, the comparison I was making was Fleet battles, there's no question in my mind that Astartes could massacre the Covenant. I only mentioned plasma because Imperial plasma weapons, since so few understand them anymore, are touchy and dangerous, prone to exploding in peoples faces if the vents fail. Covenant wield plasma weapons like the Eldar or Tau, they always work and aren't a threat to the wielder as well as the target. Although I do agree with the theory that perhaps they tend to operate on a lower output than Imperial ones, perhaps using less gas per shot, since they seem to do less damage (again, by the books, not the game), but that's not by much.

Point taken, however. He looks way cooler than any Covenant.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Heh, that's awesome. 'Course, the comparison I was making was Fleet battles, there's no question in my mind that Astartes could massacre the Covenant. I only mentioned plasma because Imperial plasma weapons, since so few understand them anymore, are touchy and dangerous, prone to exploding in peoples faces if the vents fail. Covenant wield plasma weapons like the Eldar or Tau, they always work and aren't a threat to the wielder as well as the target. Although I do agree with the theory that perhaps they tend to operate on a lower output than Imperial ones, perhaps using less gas per shot, since they seem to do less damage (again, by the books, not the game), but that's not by much.

Point taken, however. He looks way cooler than any Covenant.

They do have (again, confirmed by Inquisitor) a 'safe(ish) fire mode' - using it on that would seem to make it more equivalent to Covenant weaponry.