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View Full Version : [4e] Video: The Tiefling and the Gnome



illathid
2007-12-20, 12:49 AM
Wizards just put a new animated video that features an interview with a Gnome and a Tiefling.

The link is here (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/toon/20071219a&pf=true).

Cybren
2007-12-20, 12:53 AM
what the hell is with the accents? And it's like they're trying to get people to hate gnomes on purpose.

Admiral Squish
2007-12-20, 12:58 AM
Niiiiiice.

Behold_the_Void
2007-12-20, 01:08 AM
what the hell is with the accents? And it's like they're trying to get people to hate gnomes on purpose.

People don't hate gnomes :smallconfused:

illathid
2007-12-20, 01:09 AM
what the hell is with the accents? And it's like they're trying to get people to hate gnomes on purpose.

I actually liked the Gnome's accent better than the Tiefling, but maybe thats just 'cause I thought he was funny.

On a side note, it doesn't seem like this really reveals too much about 4E in particular. Although... It does seem to suggest that theres going to be some connection between Gnomes and Fey, which could be interesting.

Admiral Squish
2007-12-20, 01:10 AM
what the hell is with the accents? And it's like they're trying to get people to hate gnomes on purpose.

NOBODY gets to hate on my little midgety brothers, yo. NOBODY. I SWEAR TO GOD, I'LL EAT YOUR FACE. FAAAAAACE!:smallfurious:

Ganurath
2007-12-20, 01:12 AM
That, ladies and gents, is why Tieflings are my favorite nonstandard race. Because they punt badgers.

Catch
2007-12-20, 01:12 AM
Hi-larious. Perfectly captures the spirit of the gnome, too.

horseboy
2007-12-20, 01:14 AM
meh, :smallsigh:

Icewalker
2007-12-20, 01:23 AM
Harsh.

Pretty funny though :smallbiggrin:

RTGoodman
2007-12-20, 01:23 AM
The biggest thing I thought when I saw that was "Man, I would love to have a badger minion..."

Besides that, it didn't really give us that much info, since we knew most of the stuff before (for instance, that there's a power to use eldritch blast against multiple foes).

Eldmor
2007-12-20, 01:23 AM
Defined pacts! YES!~ [/warlockasm]
I like this new woodland gnome take instead of the all-knowing tinkers. Badger minions for all!

Fax Celestis
2007-12-20, 01:26 AM
I'm...I'm married to a tiefling.

Awesome.

Chronicled
2007-12-20, 01:33 AM
That. Was. Fantastic.

Xefas
2007-12-20, 01:59 AM
My god, I need a badger-based gnome in my next D&D session.

"Who's my minion? Who's my minion?! You are!"

JackMage666
2007-12-20, 02:04 AM
I'm annoyed by both of them. Everyone hates the Goth-guy playing the Infernal-girl character. Everyone also hates the.. um.. Person playing the.. Um.. Gnome.

Swordguy
2007-12-20, 02:33 AM
I'm annoyed by both of them. Everyone hates the Goth-guy playing the Infernal-girl character. Everyone also hates the.. um.. Person playing the.. Um.. Gnome.

This.

Though if I had to choose, I'd get rid of gnomes as well. Reminds me of a joke:

You're in the airlock of a spaceship - out the window there is nothing but the blackness of space. Next to you are a gnome and a psionicist. You have a gun with one bullet. Whom do you shoot?

The window.

Deepblue706
2007-12-20, 02:41 AM
Wow. That was quite horrible. I...kinda don't feel so well about being someone who plays D&D. I mean, the world had plenty of reasons to shun us already - from watching that video, I think I'm going to shun myself.

Nebo_
2007-12-20, 02:43 AM
People don't hate gnomes

People who don't hate gnomes aren't real people.

reorith
2007-12-20, 02:44 AM
was anyone else surprised by the profanity?

Ganurath
2007-12-20, 02:51 AM
was anyone else surprised by the profanity?Pleasantly. You expect fiendspawn to say "No shucks?"

Diakos
2007-12-20, 02:51 AM
Sigh... every iteration of D&D seem to give more and more distance to the quirky half-suicidal tinkergnomes of olde...
Where is a man supposed to get his fantasy steampunky goodness now?
Feels like they are turning Gnomes into big-nosed Yodas, and i thinks that's rather sad as there's allready hordes of tree-hugging crittes, heck they even get 2 classes.
And while Ebberon is the most "steampunky" setting, it's steampunk in a ADD sugaraddled anime-wannabe way...
Then again if it was up to me, every setting would be ravenloft, just in diferent ages, of course including an occult neo-victorian "steampowered golems fighting vampire overlords armies of undead" setting.

Xefas
2007-12-20, 03:04 AM
Pleasantly. You expect fiendspawn to say "No shucks?"

I rather liked the NWN fiendish alternatives.

"Pike off, window-licker!"
"Pus-mongering dog eater!"
"...Berk"

Tallis
2007-12-20, 03:35 AM
So gnomes are idiots now? Tieflings have a wierd half russian half indian accent? It was funny, but I wouldn't want to play iether one of them.

I do like the idea of taking gnomes back to their fey roots, but some intelligence would be nice too.

CaptainSam
2007-12-20, 03:42 AM
Tieflings are bad! She burnt the badger!! But he was hard and took it, so everything's okay in the end.

Jack Zander
2007-12-20, 03:48 AM
Sooo... the evil creatures are the good guys and the friendly gnomes are the bad guys now?

Great, I finally got my PCs to play good characters and now this...

reorith
2007-12-20, 03:51 AM
Pleasantly. You expect fiendspawn to say "No shucks?"

no, but wotc is a subsidiary of hasbro. i kinda figured they wouldn't say anything that should be beeped.


I rather liked the NWN fiendish alternatives.

"Pike off, window-licker!"
"Pus-mongering dog eater!"
"...Berk"

pike off, window-licker! i'm so using that later today

Kioran
2007-12-20, 03:51 AM
Wow. That was quite horrible. I...kinda don't feel so well about being someone who plays D&D. I mean, the world had plenty of reasons to shun us already - from watching that video, I think I'm going to shun myself.

There´s little to add here. While they at least got the pronunciation of Tiefling right (a rare blessing), about everything else was ridiculous or bad. No explanation, and humour on a 12-year olds niveau.
Oh, and ZOMG-powers. In short, no crunch to evaluate and fluff that sucks. And makes a very easy target for ridicule.

Ganurath
2007-12-20, 03:52 AM
Tieflings are bad! She burnt the badger!! But he was hard and took it, so everything's okay in the end.No, she kicked it. Punting small, furry animals is standard fare for warlocks, just ask Richard.

Fax Celestis
2007-12-20, 05:38 AM
So gnomes are idiots now? Tieflings have a wierd half russian half indian accent? It was funny, but I wouldn't want to play iether one of them.

I do like the idea of taking gnomes back to their fey roots, but some intelligence would be nice too.

Tieflings have a Slavic accent. You know, like Dracula.

Reinboom
2007-12-20, 05:48 AM
I'm not too fond of the gnome's eyes.
hm..
They are definitely changing things to draw more clear distinctions between various races.

And that gnome acts very much like my old usual gnome player... I can't see gnomes as monsters though. It's strange.
Perhaps monsters for evil parties to kill?

Kioran
2007-12-20, 06:01 AM
Tieflings have a Slavic accent. You know, like Dracula.

But slavic people have/dracula has dignity. He isn´t a "kickahhss wolock". Seriously, the presented figures have neither intelligence, nor smarts, nor any form of conceivable humour. Even Ben Stiller´s worst roles weren´t quite as stupid.
But if that´s the feel the aim for with 4th Edition (a mixture of pulp, thrown in references to modern cinema and mutual show-off instead of stolid cooperation), they managed to capture it quite well.

Somebody hit them with a hammer. Gygax was no god, and many alterations to his work were good, but letting some people screw with the basics of flavor and the experience is simply bad. There´s nothing wrong with fighting only one troll or rolling attacks for 4 round straight. That makes fighting 4 Trolls or pulling of stunts special.
You know, special, as in "not an everyday occurence".

Well, faux-coolness for those who want it. Another 100$ i won´t be spending - good for me.

Baxbart
2007-12-20, 06:09 AM
Ahahahaha, that was hilarious!

FRANCIS! NOOOOO!

...

Now I'm suddenly possessed by the irrepressible urge to play a gnome - they look way more fun than being some angsty goth-tiefling. Hell, who needs favourable stats and powers - its all about the comedy relief!

illathid
2007-12-20, 06:10 AM
Sigh... every iteration of D&D seem to give more and more distance to the quirky half-suicidal tinkergnomes of olde...
Where is a man supposed to get his fantasy steampunky goodness now?
Feels like they are turning Gnomes into big-nosed Yodas, and i thinks that's rather sad as there's allready hordes of tree-hugging crittes, heck they even get 2 classes.
And while Ebberon is the most "steampunky" setting, it's steampunk in a ADD sugaraddled anime-wannabe way...
Then again if it was up to me, every setting would be ravenloft, just in diferent ages, of course including an occult neo-victorian "steampowered golems fighting vampire overlords armies of undead" setting.

The problem with "quirky half-suicidal tinkergnomes" is that's exactly how Warcraft portrays gnomes. And we all know that if there's anything in 4E that even hints of possibly resembling something that has already appeared in World of Warcraft will cause legions of people to begin screaming "4e=MMORPG".

tyckspoon
2007-12-20, 06:45 AM
But slavic people have/dracula has dignity. He isn´t a "kickahhss wolock". Seriously, the presented figures have neither intelligence, nor smarts, nor any form of conceivable humour. Even Ben Stiller´s worst roles weren´t quite as stupid.
But if that´s the feel the aim for with 4th Edition (a mixture of pulp, thrown in references to modern cinema and mutual show-off instead of stolid cooperation), they managed to capture it quite well.


It's framed as an 'out of character' interview and intended to be humorous. It's a very large leap to say that this kind of video is intended to represent the feel of the game in-play.

My gawds, that gnome.. if that is the official take on the gnome, no wonder they wanted to pack him off into the MM.

Starsinger
2007-12-20, 07:17 AM
I thought the video was pretty cute. Giving the Tiefling an accent was an interesting choice, what would've made it more acceptable? If she was a valley girl? "And like I have like this power that like lets me like use eldritch blast on like multiple like targets, y'know? AND I can like totally do it without like breaking a nail!"

Fixer
2007-12-20, 07:38 AM
no, but wotc is a subsidiary of hasbro. i kinda figured they wouldn't say anything that should be beeped.
What I heard was beeped, so the profanity was short-lived.

Reinboom
2007-12-20, 07:39 AM
angsty goth-tiefling

Have people started just associating "angst" with "goth" now? :smallconfused:


Main Entry:
Pronunciation:
\ˈäŋ(k)st, ˈaŋ(k)st\
Function: noun
Etymology: Danish & German; Danish, from German
Date: circa 1942
: a feeling of anxiety, apprehension, or insecurity <teenage angst>


I.. don't get that with this tiefling. At all.

Oh, and <insert rant about use of the term "goth">

Starsinger
2007-12-20, 07:41 AM
Have people started just associating "angst" with "goth" now? :smallconfused:


I.. don't get that with this tiefling. At all.

Me neither, she seemed very secure with herself. I'm not picking up the Goth vibe either so much..

Diakos
2007-12-20, 08:01 AM
The problem with "quirky half-suicidal tinkergnomes" is that's exactly how Warcraft portrays gnomes. And we all know that if there's anything in 4E that even hints of possibly resembling something that has already appeared in World of Warcraft will cause legions of people to begin screaming "4e=MMORPG".

In case they do I'll personally hunt them down one by one, beat their useless brains out of their skull with the book containing the original description of Tinker Gnomes, and then proceed to give them a barb wire and broken glass enema whilst loudly chanting "Thou Shalt Not lay blame on the Greatness of Gnomes, Especially not on account of Blizzard's Long Sticky Theme Thieving Fingers" and empathising every capital letter with a swift bludgeoning of their respective groins.
(note: results may wary, in case of long distance pummelling, I may just sit and hope really hard that they get massive swollen haemorrhoids as well receive "Reekwinds curse")

Swordguy
2007-12-20, 08:04 AM
Have people started just associating "angst" with "goth" now? :smallconfused:


I.. don't get that with this tiefling. At all.

Oh, and <insert rant about use of the term "goth">

Indeed.

"If you're so goth, where were YOU when we sacked Rome?"

Morty
2007-12-20, 08:19 AM
Bleh. This video was preety bad. I didn't mind the gnome, it looks like they're making gnomes more fey-like and folklore related, which is I think right direction. But the Tiefling... bad humor, russian accent thrown there for no good purpose, bragging about powers like 10 year old... And the whole video just seemed awkward.
Also, Tiefling is of course Warlock. I wonder if there'll be any non-tiefling warlocks and non-warlock tieflings.

kamikasei
2007-12-20, 08:49 AM
Sooo... the evil creatures are the good guys and the friendly gnomes are the bad guys now?

Yes; being in the MM rather than the PHB will mean gnomes must be evil, just like Aasimar.


Also, Tiefling is of course Warlock. I wonder if there'll be any non-tiefling warlocks and non-warlock tieflings.

They're trying to sell the new additions; they might as well show them together. If that rumour about a Dragonborn race in the PHB is true, I wouldn't be surprised to see "Dragonborn Warlord" showing up in marketing material a lot, and wouldn't conclude from that that the race and class were somehow bound to one another.

I don't know; it seemed like a perfectly inoffensive video to me, not great or hilarious but good for a smile if taken as targeted at existing gamers who can take a joke. I don't understand the bile directed at it by some posters. Maybe I just have a weak spot for badgers.

Baxbart
2007-12-20, 08:55 AM
Have people started just associating "angst" with "goth" now? :smallconfused:


I.. don't get that with this tiefling. At all.

Oh, and <insert rant about use of the term "goth">

No, not at all... in fact, I've been through several phases of alternative music and the associated lifestyle (including goth, for a good few years). The description was merely a vague vibe that I got, not a generalisation of the group in general :smallsmile:

AlterForm
2007-12-20, 08:56 AM
Tiefling: Lame/10

Gnome: 12/10

Kicking the Badger Minion: Priceless

Starsinger
2007-12-20, 09:16 AM
Also, Tiefling is of course Warlock. I wonder if there'll be any non-tiefling warlocks and non-warlock tieflings.

Kinda like how in 3rd edition and 3.5 the elf was a wizard, the halfling a rogue and the dwarf a fighter.. Iconic characters that are their race's favorite class? Shocking! :smallamused:

Morty
2007-12-20, 09:26 AM
Kinda like how in 3rd edition and 3.5 the elf was a wizard, the halfling a rogue and the dwarf a fighter.. Iconic characters that are their race's favorite class? Shocking! :smallamused:

Your point? Just because they did it in 3.x too doesn't make it any less silly.

kamikasei
2007-12-20, 09:35 AM
Your point? Just because they did it in 3.x too doesn't make it any less silly.

Well, if you find it silly that's a matter of taste, I guess, but when you said "I wonder if there'll be any non-tiefling warlocks and non-warlock tieflings" I took that as asking whether Tieflings would somehow be required to be Warlocks or vice versa; pointing out that races and classes were often matched up in 3ed without any such restrictions applying is in fact a valid counterargument. If you just meant "I wonder if we'll see Tieflings depicted as anything other than Warlocks in publicity, source books, etc." then that's a less unjustified fear but I doubt the trend will be so strict.

Starsinger
2007-12-20, 09:37 AM
Your point? Just because they did it in 3.x too doesn't make it any less silly.

Would you prefer Iconic characters that arbitrarily weren't their races favored class for the sole reason that it would be different? Or is your complaint that Tiefling's favored class is Warlock?

Morty
2007-12-20, 09:42 AM
My compliant is that Tieflings were already matched with Warlocks in an article about warlocks, so they could've given Russian Tiefling here other class. Secondly, I find "iconic classes for races" concept wrong in all cases. Thirdly, Tieflings=Warlocks match-up is too painfully obvious. It sort of looks like the race and class were made for each other. Hence my fear that there won't be many non-tiefling warlocks and vice versa.

Swooper
2007-12-20, 09:42 AM
That wasn't a gnome. It was a goblin. This video made me hate WotC, not gnomes.

Reinboom
2007-12-20, 09:58 AM
That wasn't a gnome. It was a goblin. This video made me hate WotC, not gnomes.

But on the same bill... the current rendition of gnome (http://www.enworld.org/Pozas/Pictures/Iconics/nebin.jpg) isn't a gnome (http://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Dat_Erdm%C3%A4nneken) either. (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1c/Nisse_d_apres_nature_ill_jnl_fal.png)

Answers (http://www.answers.com/topic/gnome) help on the topic.

Goblins aren't that cute, anyways.

Thoughtbot360
2007-12-20, 10:27 AM
People who don't hate gnomes aren't real people.

I know, the gnomes whole personality is "annoying prankster". In a way, I find them as bullies. They *never* stop pranking! Or building steam-powered telescopes that fog themselves up or other impractical inventions that are destined to blow up in your face.

However, if Richard completes his new campaign world (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/Y2BEzifZZgrsSdReVf4.html), he might have the best re-representation of the gnomes ever.

Admiral Squish
2007-12-20, 10:31 AM
I know, the gnomes whole personality is "annoying prankster". In a way, I find them as bullies. They *never* stop pranking! Or building steam-powered telescopes that fog themselves up or other impractical inventions that are destined to blow up in your face.

However, if Richard completes his new campaign world (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/Y2BEzifZZgrsSdReVf4.html), he might have the best re-representation of the gnomes ever.

There is an entire chapter on them in races of stone, and there's a lot more to them than just pranks, you know. I suggest you read it, before spouting nonsense about our much-maligned short brethren.

Tallis
2007-12-20, 10:35 AM
I thought the video was pretty cute. Giving the Tiefling an accent was an interesting choice, what would've made it more acceptable? If she was a valley girl? "And like I have like this power that like lets me like use eldritch blast on like multiple like targets, y'know? AND I can like totally do it without like breaking a nail!"

I don't have a problem with the tiefling having an accent. It just that it's such a badly done accent. If they wanted to give her an accent they should have picked one that they could do well. She does talk a bit like a valley girl too, syntax wise.
All in all I'm starting to think that WotC should just stay away from making any kind of video...
@Fax I've only known a couple of Romanians and they didn't sound like that, so I'll have to take your word for it that it's meant to be a slavic accent.

mostlyharmful
2007-12-20, 10:38 AM
Sucks, a LOT. mildly redeeming badger minion but for the most part it made me want to cringe. the tiefling with the hollywood accent in particular sucked hairy ass.:smallyuk:

Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick
2007-12-20, 10:43 AM
And after all that bother to explain why they don't use humor (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20051104a).

Shame, shame, shame.

YPU
2007-12-20, 10:59 AM
yup, now i am sure i will be playing gnomes for the rest of my life. tough i tend to play the type who think the world and especialy life is just a big joke of which only he knows the punchline.

how would and intervieuw with the aasimar sound?

Chronicled
2007-12-20, 11:16 AM
Indeed.

"If you're so goth, where were YOU when we sacked Rome?"

I do believe I'll be sigging that.

Fax Celestis
2007-12-20, 12:16 PM
I don't have a problem with the tiefling having an accent. It just that it's such a badly done accent. If they wanted to give her an accent they should have picked one that they could do well. She does talk a bit like a valley girl too, syntax wise.
All in all I'm starting to think that WotC should just stay away from making any kind of video...
@Fax I've only known a couple of Romanians and they didn't sound like that, so I'll have to take your word for it that it's meant to be a slavic accent.

My grandparents were from Yugoslavia, and they had that accent when they weren't trying to cover it up.

Townopolis
2007-12-20, 02:17 PM
Looks like I've got some homebrew to do.

TheThan
2007-12-20, 02:39 PM
I’m sorry, that gnome was creepier than the freaking Tiefling. It wasn’t cute nor was it funny it was just creepy. No wonder they got stuck in the MM, the way they got depicted I’m sure a lot of adventurers would simply kill them out of principle. So they might as well get XP for doing it.

Kiirseva
2007-12-20, 02:44 PM
Adam Phillips does some great work (http://www.biteycastle.com/). Check out his other cartoons and you might appreciate that short more.

horseboy
2007-12-20, 02:49 PM
I’m sorry, that gnome was creepier than the freaking Tiefling. It wasn’t cute nor was it funny it was just creepy. No wonder they got stuck in the MM, the way they got depicted I’m sure a lot of adventurers would simply kill them out of principle. So they might as well get XP for doing it.

Agreed. At the beginning I thought it was some kinda of zombie minion of the tiefling's.

But nothing to be surprised about. They spent more effor highlighting her breasts than they did drawing the gnome.


I thought the video was pretty cute. Giving the Tiefling an accent was an interesting choice, what would've made it more acceptable? If she was a valley girl? "And like I have like this power that like lets me like use eldritch blast on like multiple like targets, y'know? AND I can like totally do it without like breaking a nail!"


I totally stared this owlbear in the eyes and was, like, bring it fuzzy.
That's not valley how?

reorith
2007-12-20, 04:01 PM
Have people started just associating "angst" with "goth" now? :smallconfused:


I.. don't get that with this tiefling. At all.

Oh, and <insert rant about use of the term "goth">

tieflings have a +2 racial bonus to knowledge (architecture and engineering) checks involving flying butresses and pointed arches.

Starsinger
2007-12-20, 04:13 PM
That's not valley how?

See, like, I'm talking like, without the like, accent and just like, sounding like an extra from like, Clueless or something, y'know?

Tallis
2007-12-20, 06:19 PM
My grandparents were from Yugoslavia, and they had that accent when they weren't trying to cover it up.

Fair enough. Guess it wasn't as badly done an accent as it sounded to me.

Crow
2007-12-20, 06:34 PM
Can somebody explain to me what the purpose of the video was? I'm feeling somewhat lost as to what they were trying to show me.

Goff
2007-12-20, 06:44 PM
To soften the blow that gnomes will be relegated to the Monster Manual by distracting players with humour and how cool their replacement is meant to be.

Sivorak5651
2007-12-20, 06:45 PM
One of my player roleplayed a gnome...once.
He died much more horribly than this little fellow.
Never happened again :smallbiggrin:

bugsysservant
2007-12-20, 08:05 PM
Must...surpress...blinding...RAGE...

:smallfurious: ...:smallmad: ... :smallannoyed: ...:smallsigh:

Seriously. Whatever gnomes did to deserve that, that fate was too much. And the tiefling. No. Just... No.

Pretty much the only thing I didn't hate about that video was learning that its pronounced "tee-fling" instead of "tye-fling" Grrrr.

Belteshazzar
2007-12-20, 09:33 PM
Damn Tieflings taking up space that belongs to the greenskins. I swear. If any of my characters saw something that looked like that walk into a bar it would be instantly slain. Even my evil character's would mistake it for a succubus and grind it up to make aphrodisiacs.

Crow
2007-12-20, 09:35 PM
Seriously. Half-orcs are one thing. That thing is quite another...

CabbageTheif
2007-12-20, 10:02 PM
tieflings have a +2 racial bonus to knowledge (architecture and engineering) checks involving flying butresses and pointed arches.

but eventually they will have to give way to the eladrin, who have craft(a realistic version of the human form) and knowledge (grecco-roman). for those who are not history buffs like me and reorith, the bit he mentioned was rerfrencing gothic arcitectur and i ust described a bit of the baroque

CockroachTeaParty
2007-12-20, 10:18 PM
Adam... what are you doing? I hope WotC at least paid him a substantial amount. More funds to make quality cartoons, like Brakenwood, instead of that filth. Wasted talent... Don't sell out, Phillips! Not to THEM. Talk to people at Pixar or something!

Belteshazzar
2007-12-20, 10:43 PM
Seriously why Tieflings? is there some Drizzt like character from a game or book I am missing. Did all the other kids wake up one day and decide that they wanted to be a svexy horny deamon thing whose mere presence on the proposed covers is not going to make it easier to not seem like some kind of satanic fanboy?

Seriously, I have never seen a Tiefling played. Okay I lie I saw one once but my LG cleric of Wii Jas accedently dropped a Darkness globe in the area while she was trying to elderich glaive some enemies while flying. The wizard then forgot she was in there with the gnolls and pumped a fireball into the area. Perhaps my only experience with them has relegated them to the halls of stupidity (you have a ranged touch attach woman now use it from range) but they never impressed me.

At least with Drow you could say you come from a good drow society and not get pinned into characterizations. With Tieflings you are either evil b@$terds or a noble soul trying desperately to avoid their wicked heritage. What is the alternative, are tieflings suddenly not the result of a blasphemous sin against all that is just?

tyckspoon
2007-12-20, 10:56 PM
At least with Drow you could say you come from a good drow society and not get pinned into characterizations. With Tieflings you are either evil b@$terds or a noble soul trying desperately to avoid their wicked heritage. What is the alternative, are tieflings suddenly not the result of a blasphemous sin against all that is just?

?? There's no requirement for tieflings to be that way. It's just a racial stereotype, in the same way that dwarfs are all 'lawful ale-soaked smiths', to borrow a phrase from elsewhere in this thread (I think it was this thread..) It's the path of least resistance to depict a tiefling character that way, that's all. Try this one: The fiendish influence that causes a tiefling could have happened hundreds of years ago. The modern tiefling might just not care about his inheritance.

I do wonder what's up with the look of the tiefling in the video. That's way more demonic than the current tieflings who are described as 'mostly indistinguishable from humans' except for some with relatively minor oddities.

Kaelik
2007-12-20, 11:16 PM
a Tiefling played. Okay I lie I saw one once but my LG cleric of Wii Jas accedently dropped a Darkness globe in the area while she was trying to elderich glaive some enemies while flying. The wizard then forgot she was in there with the gnolls and pumped a fireball into the area. Perhaps my only experience with them has relegated them to the halls of stupidity (you have a ranged touch attach woman now use it from range) but they never impressed me.

Well since Eldritch Glaive is not a ranged touch attack, and they spent one of their precious invocations on it, maybe they were making a character that did more damage, and fought in melee. Cause you know, Eldritch Glaive knida triples the damage per round of Warlocks. Oh, and also triples the status effects they can force.

But how dare that character attempt to be half as useful as a Wizard or Cleric. What a jerk. They definitely deserved death.

Belteshazzar
2007-12-20, 11:31 PM
Her and I were between first and third level (varied level party) fighting a pack of gnolls. It was not smart to move within close range of a whole pack of higher hitpoint monsters and try to poke them with a magic pointy stick. One of them could have jumped up and dragged her into the middle of the pack. Especialy, when she had a perfectly serviceable ranged attack.

Cybren
2007-12-21, 12:00 AM
You know what kind of design concept I find dumb? Giving entire races super powers. Seriously, the Eldardridnern can teleport? And frankly I couldn't discern between warlock class features and tiefling abilities whenever she was talking.


ALSO: Seriously guys "teef-ling"? That is the dumbest thing I ever heard. It's clearly supposed to be "ty-fling"

Crow
2007-12-21, 12:03 AM
You know what kind of design concept I find dumb? Giving entire races super powers. Seriously, the Eldardridnern can teleport? And frankly I couldn't discern between warlock class features and tiefling abilities whenever she was talking.


ALSO: Seriously guys "teef-ling"? That is the dumbest thing I ever heard. It's clearly supposed to be "ty-fling"

Well to be fair, every member of the common squid "race" can change colors at will. If Eldanarn can teleport though...crap. The other races better have some great abilities to make me not play an Eldanarn.

Snooder
2007-12-21, 12:09 AM
The fiendish influence that causes a tiefling could have happened hundreds of years ago...I do wonder what's up with the look of the tiefling in the video. That's way more demonic than the current tieflings who are described as 'mostly indistinguishable from humans' except for some with relatively minor oddities.

I see some people haven't kept up with 4e spoilers. Tielflings have now been standardized as a race. The race was created a few millenia ago when a tribe of humans? made a demonic pact that resulted in the tiefling race. No more human/evil outsider nookie. Also, they all now have a standard look, horns, green eyes, tail. Not sure if red skin is also standard, or if that'll vary between red/black/purple e.t.c.

Personally, I liked the vid. Reminded me why I didn't mind gnomes leaving the PHB and had some insight into the new powers and focus of each race.

Reinboom
2007-12-21, 12:12 AM
ALSO: Seriously guys "teef-ling"? That is the dumbest thing I ever heard. It's clearly supposed to be "ty-fling"

Tiefling is a germanic derived word. 'tief' in such, would be pronounced teef.
Though, the origin word (teufel) is pronounced ty-fel.

Then there's the official take which would be /'ti.flɪŋ/ or /'taɪ.flɪŋ/
Which is both teef- and tyf-

So, both are correct.

Brigham
2007-12-21, 12:16 AM
I can't say I ever envisioned a gnome to be quite like that, but I would have a blast playing or encountering one like that.

I agree about the accents, especially the tiefling. The seeming uber-ness and class/race overlap of the tiefling raises doubts, too. It's almost as if Wizards is drifting toward pre-fab starting characters like "if you want to play x race, then you will play y class with. . .".

Starsinger
2007-12-21, 12:21 AM
I agree about the accents, especially the tiefling. The seeming uber-ness and class/race overlap of the tiefling raises doubts, too. It's almost as if Wizards is drifting toward pre-fab starting characters like "if you want to play x race, then you will play y class with. . .".

Well see.. they did mention that race class combinations will have different abilities than each other. "A Dwarf Fighter with the Friend of Earth power can do things that other fighters just can't do." So maybe that's a Tiefling specific warlock ability.

horseboy
2007-12-21, 12:39 AM
I see some people haven't kept up with 4e spoilers. Tielflings have now been standardized as a race. The race was created a few millenia ago when a tribe of humans? made a demonic pact that resulted in the tiefling race. No more human/evil outsider nookie. Also, they all now have a standard look, horns, green eyes, tail. Not sure if red skin is also standard, or if that'll vary between red/black/purple e.t.c.
And that's going to be able to be dropped into a generic world, how?

kpenguin
2007-12-21, 12:45 AM
My speakers are out. Could someone please summarize what they reveal here?

horseboy
2007-12-21, 12:49 AM
My speakers are out. Could someone please summarize what they reveal here?

squat and nill

bugsysservant
2007-12-21, 12:55 AM
squat and nill

Well, that's not true. They show...ummm...that races will once more be shackled with annoying stereotypes? That gnomes will be annoying as hell? Or, if you are actually interested in mechanics, that tieflings (apparently pronounced "tee-flings") can attack TWO TARGETS IN THE SAME ROUND. :smalleek: And, IIRC (I can't bring myself to watch that thing a second time) have tails.

Xefas
2007-12-21, 12:57 AM
My speakers are out. Could someone please summarize what they reveal here?

Tieflings get a racial ability that wreathes them in fire, dealing damage to those that strike them. I assume it'd be similar to the Holocaust Cloak martial stance.

tyckspoon
2007-12-21, 12:59 AM
Well, that's not true.

Nah, it sounds accurate to me. There wasn't anything in the video that we didn't already know either from substantiated rumor or directly from the Design and Development articles on warlocks and races. The only thing that's vaguely new is the confirmation that Eldritch Chain or something very much like it is still around, which should surprise roughly nobody.

Gralamin
2007-12-21, 01:33 AM
Yes; being in the MM rather than the PHB will mean gnomes must be evil, just like Aasimar.



They're trying to sell the new additions; they might as well show them together. If that rumour about a Dragonborn race in the PHB is true, I wouldn't be surprised to see "Dragonborn Warlord" showing up in marketing material a lot, and wouldn't conclude from that that the race and class were somehow bound to one another.

I don't know; it seemed like a perfectly inoffensive video to me, not great or hilarious but good for a smile if taken as targeted at existing gamers who can take a joke. I don't understand the bile directed at it by some posters. Maybe I just have a weak spot for badgers.

It is no rumor. I have my copy of Races and Classes open to page 24 and Dragonborn are there. For comparison, Tieflings appear on page 44, and warlocks appear on page 72.

Irreverent Fool
2007-12-21, 10:32 AM
The problem with "quirky half-suicidal tinkergnomes" is that's exactly how Warcraft portrays gnomes. And we all know that if there's anything in 4E that even hints of possibly resembling something that has already appeared in World of Warcraft will cause legions of people to begin screaming "4e=MMORPG".

Oh, you mean like dragons fighting in phases or horned primary-colored demon chicks with fangs and slavic accents?

DeathQuaker
2007-12-21, 11:09 AM
Wow. I was planning to be all patient and "wait and see what the books are like" and all that, but I think that video has singlehandedly convinced me not only to never buy 4e, but never buy any product from Wizards of the Coast again. That was just all-around the stupidest thing I'd ever seen.

(Okay, Francis was funny. But the rest was stupid. :smalltongue: )

kamikasei
2007-12-21, 12:16 PM
horned primary-colored demon chicks with fangs and slavic accents?

Where were they in WoW? :smallconfused:

Valairn
2007-12-21, 12:52 PM
Where were they in WoW? :smallconfused:

Not sure if it was sarcasm or not, but check out the Drainei, horns, hooves, and slavish-like accent.

kamikasei
2007-12-21, 01:10 PM
Not sure if it was sarcasm or not, but check out the Drainei, horns, hooves, and slavish-like accent.

Whoops. I didn't think they had horns; I see now that the females do. Don't mind me, I'll just go hide in a corner.

Tallis
2007-12-21, 01:12 PM
Not sure if it was sarcasm or not, but check out the Drainei, horns, hooves, and slavish-like accent.

Draenai was the first thing I thought of when the tiefling started speaking...

...KILL IT!! was the first thing I thought of when the gnome started speaking.

Valairn
2007-12-21, 01:17 PM
Yeah Drainei was the first thing I thought too, I was like... WTF FAIL WOTC....

That video was horrible, thankfully fluff doesn't mean crap and will save me from hating 4th ed, until I see the mechanics.

d12
2007-12-21, 05:26 PM
First thought to that was, 'so is that how all tieflings are going to look?' Whatever happened to planetouched having only subtle signs of outsiderness? :smallconfused: I mean, there's nothing inherently wrong with that kind of look, but leave it for the half-fiends. Secondly, death to gnomes!! ^_^

And as for the accents, Tief McLing over there actually kind of reminds me of Molotov from Venture Brothers. :smalltongue:

Other than that, yeah, not really any new information, and I have to get most of my information regarding 4E from reading the forums because of that ridiculous sign-in junk.

GimliFett
2007-12-21, 06:06 PM
What is with the hatred of gnomes, new and old? Sheesh?

kamikasei
2007-12-21, 06:09 PM
What is with the hatred of gnomes, new and old? Sheesh?

Clearly, these people are badger-hating monsters.



That said, every time I think about the video now the gnome's voice has morphed into that of Tweek from South Park. Take whatever meaning from that you will.

Snooder
2007-12-21, 06:25 PM
And that's going to be able to be dropped into a generic world, how?

Same way Elves, Dwarves and other fantastic races are. WoTC has stated clearly that continuing campaigns across the 3.5/4e border will be hard and the best thing to do is to wrap up the current campaign arcs, retcon some changes in and begin anew. This is why they mentioned that 4e was coming over the summer, almost a year before it's due so we all have time to prepare our campaigns for the changes. You don't need to use the WoTC fluff, but the fluff certainly makes more sense than the 3.5 fluff.

Talyn
2007-12-21, 06:29 PM
Damn Tieflings taking up space that belongs to the greenskins. I swear. If any of my characters saw something that looked like that walk into a bar it would be instantly slain. Even my evil character's would mistake it for a succubus and grind it up to make aphrodisiacs.

Orcs and goblins don't have green skin, in D&D,by the way. Come to think of it, they didn't have green skin in Tolkien, or in most classic fantasy art (or even Disney movies!). Games Workshop pretty much invented that, and Warcraft made it popular. Now, back on subject...

I was just reading the new paperback publication by Wizards which is basically just them explaining the justifications behind them reworking many of the rules. Many things about their justifications I thought were legitimate, especially about the new classes, but the stuff about races seems to be really, REALLY world-specific. World-specific in a way that makes a lot of the changes unworkable in pre-existing published worlds (i.e. Greyhawk or FR) unless each world house-ruled the CRUD out of it.

Personally, I never understood the "point" of gnomes from a game-mechanic or world/literary perspective, maybe because they weren't in Tolkien. If you want a short guy with a wicked sense of humor, play a halfling. If you want a serious, protective guy who lives underground, play a dwarf. If you want a race that is stereotypically magical and close to nature, play a fey or an elf. Gnomes don't really fit into that anywhere.

This might be why the gnomes in big campaign worlds have found their "masters of magitech" niche, which, if my memory serves, started with Krynn then moved from there to Forgotten Realms, and now, through the Blizzard games, is the "default" understanding of them for most people. If you like some wacky invention antics in your game, great, keep the Realms/WoW gnomes, but that's not the default D&D setting.

On the other hand, the designers specifically admitted that they moved tiefling into "Core Race" to let people play dark, angsty, flirting-with-the-dark-side characters. I think the expression they used was "They are for people who want characters that are, if not evil, then evil-curious." They are specifically designed to replace legions of "I'm a Drizzt-clone" good Drow elves out there. I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing - Helm knows that if I ever roll a Tiefling, he's going to be as inflexibly righteous as I can make him, both because I like being contrary and have a blast with those types of characters.

Maroon
2007-12-21, 07:27 PM
Personally, I never understood the "point" of gnomes from a game-mechanic or world/literary perspective, maybe because they weren't in Tolkien. If you want a short guy with a wicked sense of humor, play a halfling. If you want a serious, protective guy who lives underground, play a dwarf. If you want a race that is stereotypically magical and close to nature, play a fey or an elf. Gnomes don't really fit into that anywhere.This is why I love Gnomes. You don't need to rip off J.R.R. Tolkien at all with his Elves and Dwarves and Hobbits when you've got Gnomes. They're not pigeonholed into anything like all the other races are; they've been portrayed as many different things throughout the fantasy genre -- tragic tinkerers, jolly pranksters, begoggled steamworkers, deceptive wizards, master gemcutters, forest dwelling fey, hoarders of knowledge, short people -- anything! There isn't a Standard Gnome, just like there isn't a Standard Human (even the officials can't seem to decide, what with the bug-eyed small-nosed green dude we see here). They fit into it everywhere.

Oh, and 'tiefling' has always been pronounced as 'tief-ling', like fief and thief and belief and brief and chief and grief. I mean, really, 'tie-fling'? Are you done throwing your neckwear around?

horseboy
2007-12-21, 08:33 PM
Oh, and 'tiefling' has always been pronounced as 'tief-ling', like fief and thief and belief and brief and chief and grief. I mean, really, 'tie-fling'? Are you done throwing your neckwear around?

I think it has more to do with TIE-Fighter.

El Jaspero, the Pirate King
2007-12-21, 08:48 PM
Wow. I was planning to be all patient and "wait and see what the books are like" and all that, but I think that video has singlehandedly convinced me not only to never buy 4e, but never buy any product from Wizards of the Coast again. That was just all-around the stupidest thing I'd ever seen.

(Okay, Francis was funny. But the rest was stupid. :smalltongue: )

Sign me up for your club too. That was lame, poorly done, and just made me feel even less like buying 4.$

Fhaolan
2007-12-22, 02:09 AM
Okay, showed that to my wife. She thought the gnome was hilarious. "I'm a Monster!", "They gave me a kick-ass lair! Do you have a lair?" and "Who's my minion?"

'course we're both twisted people.

The tiefling, on the other hand, got a big resounding 'eh.' Nothing really that funny.

What? I look at this stuff for pure entertainment. I've given up trying to glean useful info out of them. I'm going to ream all the fluff anyway when I get ahold of it, so that stuff is all irrelevant to me. I don't run 'standard' campaigns, I have my own twisted world to set stuff in that has existed through all the different versions of D&D, and several other systems. Yet one more ruleset isn't going to hurt it. All I want to see is hard mechanics before I make any decisions on whether it's good or not.

Townopolis
2007-12-22, 03:40 AM
I'm just worried that I'm going to have to homebrew all the races and classes I actually want to play.

Aimbot
2007-12-22, 05:01 AM
There is an entire chapter on them in races of stone, and there's a lot more to them than just pranks, you know. I suggest you read it, before spouting nonsense about our much-maligned short brethren.
Is it bad that the first thing I thought after reading this was: "Gnome chicks are easy." ?

This video was terrible. I don't know if I'm more worried about the obnoxious players who will play lawful good "conflicted and rebellious" Tieflings or the whole concept of Dragonborn.

JadedDM
2007-12-22, 05:04 AM
Okay, stupid 2E'er question here:

People keep talking about Dragonborn. What is that? Is that like a half-dragon or a Draconian or something?

Aimbot
2007-12-22, 05:20 AM
Okay, stupid 2E'er question here:

People keep talking about Dragonborn. What is that? Is that like a half-dragon or a Draconian or something?

It's a bone thrown to all the extremely vocal annoyances on the internet and elsewhere who have to have a dragon associated with anything fantasy in order to be interested. the sort of people who will tell anyone that listens that they're a "half-dragon."

I guess a bunch of dragons went on a bender twenty years before the modern day in the standard campaign world.

Tengu
2007-12-22, 05:45 AM
Okay, stupid 2E'er question here:

People keep talking about Dragonborn. What is that? Is that like a half-dragon or a Draconian or something?

I can only assume that Wizards have seen how popular Earthdawn's T'skrang are, and therefore want a lizard-like race for their own game too.

Abardam
2007-12-22, 09:24 AM
Okay, stupid 2E'er question here:

People keep talking about Dragonborn. What is that? Is that like a half-dragon or a Draconian or something?Dragonborn is like a template, but not. Basically you trade your racial stuff for flight/blindsense/a breath weapon (eventually). Fluff-wise, you're "reborn" (seriously, you have to make a giant egg and then sleep in it (http://64.223.12.31/dnd/images/rodragon_gallery/94116.jpg)) as a platinum-scaled humanoid with a dragon head (http://64.223.12.31/dnd/images/rodragon_gallery/94117.jpg), in order to fight for Bahamut or somesuch.

kamikasei
2007-12-22, 09:31 AM
Dragonborn is like a template, but not. Basically you trade your racial stuff for flight/blindsense/a breath weapon (eventually). Fluff-wise, you're "reborn" (seriously, you have to make a giant egg and then sleep in it (http://64.223.12.31/dnd/images/rodragon_gallery/94116.jpg)) as a platinum-scaled humanoid with a dragon head (http://64.223.12.31/dnd/images/rodragon_gallery/94117.jpg), in order to fight for Bahamut or somesuch.

That's what they are in 3.5, but have we any indication that's what they'll be in 4e? Anyone got a copy of Races and Classes and want to clear this up?

edit: According to ENWorld (http://www.enworld.org/index.php?page=4e#races):


No longer the race born of a special pact with Bahamut as presented in Races of the Dragon, Dragonborn have been the lesser cousins of dragons since the beginning. In the Points of Light setting, they once ruled a mighty empire later destroyed in a cataclysmic war with the Tiefling empire, and are now organized into wandering clans which sometimes serve as mercenary companies. They have a reputation as honorable warriors who keep their word, but are sometimes arrogant and easily offended. Their racial feats involve things like breath weapons and wings.

Mr. Friendly
2007-12-22, 09:37 AM
That's what they are in 3.5, but have we any indication that's what they'll be in 4e? Anyone got a copy of Races and Classes and want to clear this up?

Yeah, I'll clear it up. Dragonborn are a race. Period. They are NOT the pseudo-template Dragonborn of 3.5

They are very similar, in both name and overall concept, but they are their own independant race that breeds true. They lay clutches of eggs. That's where baby Dragonborn come from.

Edit: Also their racial feats as they go seem to include firebreath and wings.

Culturally they seem (by default) to be closest to Feudal Japan, placing a high emphasis on martial traditon, service and honor.

goken04
2007-12-22, 10:53 AM
I thought the video, particularly the gnome, was hilarious. I like this new incarnation of the gnome.

CabbageTheif
2007-12-22, 03:10 PM
Quote:
No longer the race born of a special pact with Bahamut as presented in Races of the Dragon, Dragonborn have been the lesser cousins of dragons since the beginning. In the Points of Light setting, they once ruled a mighty empire later destroyed in a cataclysmic war with the Tiefling empire, and are now organized into wandering clans which sometimes serve as mercenary companies. They have a reputation as honorable warriors who keep their word, but are sometimes arrogant and easily offended. Their racial feats involve things like breath weapons and wings.

so, wait. with the dragonborn being the humanoid evolutionary branch of dragons, and gnomes being little idiots, what does that leave the kobolds? i live the 3.5 races of dragon kobold, but with dragon decent being taken away and no longer having their gnomes as playable arch-nemesis, what do they have? hard working lizard-rats?

Fax Celestis
2007-12-22, 03:19 PM
so, wait. with the dragonborn being the humanoid evolutionary branch of dragons, and gnomes being little idiots, what does that leave the kobolds? i live the 3.5 races of dragon kobold, but with dragon decent being taken away and no longer having their gnomes as playable arch-nemesis, what do they have? hard working lizard-rats?

Kobolds-as-mini-dragonlings is a purely false generalization that has propagated from 1e all the way to current day because no one's been ballsy enough to correct it. A koblold (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/67/Kobold_and_flowers.jpeg) is really probably closer to D&D's interpretation of gnomes.

EvilJames
2007-12-22, 03:25 PM
Maybe kobolds will go back to being goblinoids like before

I'm just not getting the point of the dragonborn and new tieflings they don't really add anything to the game, so resounding meh from me on them. Just nothing really unique or new about them. Gnomes don't really seem that much different than they were before if you didn't play dragonlance. Kinda dumb regulating them to the mm some of my favorite characters I've played were gnomes.

Citizen Joe
2007-12-22, 03:29 PM
Going back to the legendary beginnings, goblins, hobgoblins, bugbears and kobolds would all be faeries... evil dark faeries, but faeries none the less.

CabbageTheif
2007-12-22, 03:30 PM
in the orriginal european mythology, kobolds would be what evil fey would trade for human children; essentially what the goblin king did in Labrinth was what an evil fey would do, leaving behind an evil lesser minion to take its place. historicly, i beleive that this is what was used to explain disfigured children back in the hunter/gatherer timeperiod.

but D&D is not WoW, D&D is not middle earth, and D&D is deffinatly not real-world mythology. it is its own universe that draws elements from others, and if lizard-things have been named kobolds since first edition, then in D&D thats what they are, in the D&D universe. no one needs the balls to correct it, because in this universe, this is what it is.

my concern is what the small-lizard-people-who-are-called-kobold-but-are-not-accurate-to-what-real-world-mythology-kobolds-are will be like in 4th edition

Fax Celestis
2007-12-22, 03:31 PM
in the orriginal european mythology, kobolds would be what evil fey would trade for human children; essentially what the goblin king did in Labrinth was what an evil fay would do, leaving behind an evil lesser minion to take its place. hostoricly, i beleive that this is what was used to explain disfigured children back in the hunter/gatherer timeperiod.

but D&D is not wow, D&D is not middle earth, and D&D is not real-world mythology. it is its own universe that draws from others, and if lizard-things have been named kobolds since first edition, then in D&D thats what they are, in the D&D universe. no one needs the balls to correct it, because in this universe, this is what it is.

my concern is what the small-lizard-people-who-are-called-kobold-but-are-not-
accurate-to-what-real-world-mythology-kobolds-are will be like in 4th edition

They'll probably be monsters too. Lord knows enough people played them despite them never actually appearing as a playable race until Races of the Dragon.

Morty
2007-12-22, 03:51 PM
I just hope monster races will get stats like PC races. I guess they will, otherwise WoTC will piss off large part of their fanbase.

Illeveun
2007-12-23, 02:14 AM
I liked the video, but, for 4e, it seems that I will have to homebrew a lot of the races for my setting. It's not like I didn't do that for 3e, but still.

EvilJames
2007-12-23, 03:42 AM
in the orriginal european mythology, kobolds would be what evil fey would trade for human children; essentially what the goblin king did in Labrinth was what an evil fey would do, leaving behind an evil lesser minion to take its place. historicly, i beleive that this is what was used to explain disfigured children back in the hunter/gatherer timeperiod.

but D&D is not WoW, D&D is not middle earth, and D&D is deffinatly not real-world mythology. it is its own universe that draws elements from others, and if lizard-things have been named kobolds since first edition, then in D&D thats what they are, in the D&D universe. no one needs the balls to correct it, because in this universe, this is what it is.

my concern is what the small-lizard-people-who-are-called-kobold-but-are-not-accurate-to-what-real-world-mythology-kobolds-are will be like in 4th edition

Actually they weren't really lizard or dragon things in 1st ed, just D20 they were goblinoids before then. They were dog or rat like and they did have scales so they did have some lizard like features but the draconizing of them happened in D20.

Fhaolan
2007-12-23, 12:23 PM
Actually they weren't really lizard or dragon things in 1st ed, just D20 they were goblinoids before then. They were dog or rat like and they did have scales so they did have some lizard like features but the draconizing of them happened in D20.

It actually started as an artist disconnect with the text. If you look at the 1st edition MM, the description says a small dog-like goblin, with scaly skin or something like that, but the full-page illustration nearby depicts a mini-lizardman.

The interesting thing is that apparently the Japanese translation of that exact same book had different illustrations as the anime Record of the Lodoss War, which is based on crib notes from actual D&D sessions, depicts kobolds as small humanoid wolves.

Moff Chumley
2007-12-23, 01:40 PM
I'd just like to interject: poor Francis. :smallfrown:

RTGoodman
2007-12-23, 02:04 PM
I just hope monster races will get stats like PC races. I guess they will, otherwise WoTC will piss off large part of their fanbase.

Not likely, as far as I can tell. For a while, at least. Here's a selection from Mike Mearls' blog that addresses that issue:


Design game elements for their intended use. Secondary uses are nice, but not a goal. Basically, when we build a monster we intend you to use it as a monster. If we build a feat, it's meant as a feat, not a monster special attack. If we also want to make it a playable character race, we'll design a separate racial write up for it. We won't try to shoehorn a monster stat block into becoming a PC stat block. The designs must inform each other, but we're better off building two separate game elements rather than one that tries to multiclass.

As an example, the a theoretical minotaur PC race write up draws on and evokes the feel of the minotaur monster, but it doesn't simply copy over the rules.

Morty
2007-12-23, 02:33 PM
The designer is using minotaur as an example; that's not the same as orc or goblin. Minotaur PC can cause problems because it's large, strong, dumb beast. But orc or goblin isn't in any way different from human than elf or dwarf is.

Renegade Paladin
2007-12-23, 02:34 PM
no, but wotc is a subsidiary of hasbro. i kinda figured they wouldn't say anything that should be beeped.
There's no such thing as "should be beeped." The words aren't going to hurt you.

Crow
2007-12-23, 02:39 PM
What Mearls is saying is that they cannot put together an entire racial level progression for every race in the Monster Manual. They will do progressions for monstrous races, but it will be in supplements.

Gundato
2007-12-23, 02:55 PM
I think I am going to be nauseous...

As one of the few people who not only like gnomes, but love playing as them (Gnome Barbarians with split-personalities for the win!), this just offends me.

Personally, if they hadn't stated that was a Gnome, I would have thought it was a gobbo. Well, the badger-thing (might have to do a Gnome Ranger some time) would have gotten me suspicious, but that is a moot point.

At first, I thought all the "OMG!! IT IS WARCRAFTZOZROZO!!!" was bull. But after seeing that, I can't help but start to agree. Don't get me wrong, I like what they are doing with the base classes. One problem with 3(.5)e was that too many classes were WAY too similar. And it would be nice to not need to dig up a supplemental base class for every person in my group.

But that flash right there just disturbed me. It felt more like they were rolling chars up for an MMO or a CRPG than they were for a PnP RPG. Could have easily added the metagaming humor and small bits of info by having a tiefling adventurer encounter a gnome in a dungeon, rather than just having the Gnome piss people off on purpose while the Tiefling acts like a munchkin.

Renegade Paladin
2007-12-23, 03:59 PM
Indeed.

"If you're so goth, where were YOU when we sacked Rome?"
I was going to say that. :smalltongue:

Tallis
2007-12-23, 07:09 PM
The designer is using minotaur as an example; that's not the same as orc or goblin. Minotaur PC can cause problems because it's large, strong, dumb beast. But orc or goblin isn't in any way different from human than elf or dwarf is.

That's true in 3.x, but it might not be in 4e. As I recall he said the goal was to make monsters different from PCs. I think the example he used was an orc shaman, who would have powers that weren't available to the PC races.

Tallis
2007-12-23, 07:13 PM
It actually started as an artist disconnect with the text. If you look at the 1st edition MM, the description says a small dog-like goblin, with scaly skin or something like that, but the full-page illustration nearby depicts a mini-lizardman.

I think you're thinking of the 2e MM, in 1e they still had dog-like faces and rat tails. They did have scales, but that's part of the text too. I believe 2e also started the scorpion on a stick craze...

illathid
2007-12-23, 07:20 PM
At first, I thought all the "OMG!! IT IS WARCRAFTZOZROZO!!!" was bull. But after seeing that, I can't help but start to agree. Don't get me wrong, I like what they are doing with the base classes. One problem with 3(.5)e was that too many classes were WAY too similar. And it would be nice to not need to dig up a supplemental base class for every person in my group.

So what exactly in this video made you feel like 4E is becoming more like WoW? Because the way the gnome is portrayed here is completely opposite from the way the Warcraft Gnome is.


But that flash right there just disturbed me. It felt more like they were rolling chars up for an MMO or a CRPG than they were for a PnP RPG. Could have easily added the metagaming humor and small bits of info by having a tiefling adventurer encounter a gnome in a dungeon, rather than just having the Gnome piss people off on purpose while the Tiefling acts like a munchkin.

Ok, so the fact that it was an interview made you feel like it was less of a PnP game? Or is it something different? Because It seems like you resent the fact the characters are metagaming (with the whole "the Tiefling acts like a munchkin").

I just honestly don't understand what is exactly causing you to get these feelings that "they were rolling chars up for an MMO or a CRPG"? And actually, I'm confused about your idea as it seems like they aren't rolling up characters at all. The whole flash video meta-setting makes it seems like 4e is going to be a new season of a hit tv show, or something similar.

thorgrim29
2007-12-23, 07:55 PM
Well.... the videp was lame, but my hopes are still up for 4e.

Gundato
2007-12-23, 08:03 PM
So what exactly in this video made you feel like 4E is becoming more like WoW? Because the way the gnome is portrayed here is completely opposite from the way the Warcraft Gnome is.
The entire Tiefling side of the flash was just "Wow, look at this cool crap" which really reminds me of idiots trying to maximize their damage per second and the like


Ok, so the fact that it was an interview made you feel like it was less of a PnP game? Or is it something different? Because It seems like you resent the fact the characters are metagaming (with the whole "the Tiefling acts like a munchkin").
My annoyance wasn't that it was metagaming. It was just meta. Like I said, this could easily have been treated better. Instead, it felt like a munchkin reading an obscure bit of source material.


I just honestly don't understand what is exactly causing you to get these feelings that "they were rolling chars up for an MMO or a CRPG"? And actually, I'm confused about your idea as it seems like they aren't rolling up characters at all. The whole flash video meta-setting makes it seems like 4e is going to be a new season of a hit tv show, or something similar.
My point is that it feels like the Tiefling only sees "Ooh, evil character" and "Wow, I can play with fire" rather than an actual character. I don't expect actual RPing, but I expect it to look like people are making an attempt.

I dunno, if they were actually looking to get out info while keeping it "light and fun" they might have taken a page from what Valve did with TF2. Those videos are hilarious, informative, and pretty in character. As it stands, this feels like the guy who "won" and had Gnomes replaced with Tieflings just released a bit of propaganda. It was constant "Wow guys, Tieflings are awesome. See, he gets to do this and that!" and "See guys, the Gnome likes being a second-class race (at best). Now look at the Tiefling!"

illathid
2007-12-23, 09:15 PM
The entire Tiefling side of the flash was just "Wow, look at this cool crap" which really reminds me of idiots trying to maximize their damage per second and the like

Well it's basically an advertisement. Haven't you ever seen any of those "on the set of Generic Action Movie" features? All they do is talk about how awesome the movie is going to be. What did you expect?


My annoyance wasn't that it was metagaming. It was just meta. Like I said, this could easily have been treated better. Instead, it felt like a munchkin reading an obscure bit of source material.

Of course it was just mechanics! (I think that what your going for with "meta") Wizards just released an entire book that has loads of fluff information about tieflings. This video was a chance for them to explore some of the mechanical aspects of Tieflings and warlocks that didn't get covered in the Races & Classes book.


My point is that it feels like the Tiefling only sees "Ooh, evil character" and "Wow, I can play with fire" rather than an actual character. I don't expect actual RPing, but I expect it to look like people are making an attempt.

They are RPing, just not in a way that is typical for D&D. They are explicitly making the character act in manner consistent with the setting (which in this case is "On the Set of 4th Edition"). They talk about having agents, being on a set, the Tiefling is a spot on self-centered prima donna, the beholder is Samuel L. Jackson, and the gnome seems like he could be played by Adam Sandler. It all fits with the preconceived notions about the video's setting, i.e. that it's on the set of a movie or TV show.


I dunno, if they were actually looking to get out info while keeping it "light and fun" they might have taken a page from what Valve did with TF2. Those videos are hilarious, informative, and pretty in character. As it stands, this feels like the guy who "won" and had Gnomes replaced with Tieflings just released a bit of propaganda. It was constant "Wow guys, Tieflings are awesome. See, he gets to do this and that!" and "See guys, the Gnome likes being a second-class race (at best). Now look at the Tiefling!"

The thing with the TF2 videos is that those classes have relatively little mechanical differences, at least when you compare them to D&D classes. Because of this, those TF2 videos were able to show much of their information ostensively. The Heavy has basically two defining features, he can take a lot of hits and has a big gun, and you know this because that's what the video shows you. Both Tiefling and the warlock both have many more defining characteristics than the heavy, and so try to show all of the information we received about them in the video ostensively would have taken a lot longer time to do. Having the characters tell you the information in this case is much more efficient.

Also, there have been 4 TF2 videos made (by a professional game developer) in almost year, while they've already made 2 "On the Set" video's in as many months (and from a little single little known animator as well). I find asking for similar production values between the two to be ludicrous.

Collin152
2007-12-23, 10:08 PM
Oh, NOW I get it! Fey rights! Like Gay rights! Funny!

Gundato
2007-12-23, 10:22 PM
Well it's basically an advertisement. Haven't you ever seen any of those "on the set of Generic Action Movie" features? All they do is talk about how awesome the movie is going to be. What did you expect?
Something indicative of the final product maybe? And when the end result is interactive, I would at least like something remotely informative, rather than just something that sounds like a 3-year old got into his older brother's PHB.



Of course it was just mechanics! (I think that what your going for with "meta") Wizards just released an entire book that has loads of fluff information about tieflings. This video was a chance for them to explore some of the mechanical aspects of Tieflings and warlocks that didn't get covered in the Races & Classes book.
I was more going along the lines of actions that are just the player, and not the character. Like I said, it just looked like it was the guy who really doesn't like gnomes/likes Tieflings trying to justify himself. And his argument either indicates that he thinks all of us are idiots, or that they don't want us anymore. To draw a comic/tv parallel, think of Static Shock. Was a VERY interesting concept and had some great episodes. But, it felt like they were forsaking their previous fanbase (comic readers/people who like comics) in exchange for a different kind of audience (for crying out loud, there were more guest stars than villains).


They are RPing, just not in a way that is typical for D&D. They are explicitly making the character act in manner consistent with the setting (which in this case is "On the Set of 4th Edition"). They talk about having agents, being on a set, the Tiefling is a spot on self-centered prima donna, the beholder is Samuel L. Jackson, and the gnome seems like he could be played by Adam Sandler. It all fits with the preconceived notions about the video's setting, i.e. that it's on the set of a movie or TV show.
I dunno. You might call that RPing, I call that changing the setting to conform to the characters.


The thing with the TF2 videos is that those classes have relatively little mechanical differences, at least when you compare them to D&D classes. Because of this, those TF2 videos were able to show much of their information ostensively. The Heavy has basically two defining features, he can take a lot of hits and has a big gun, and you know this because that's what the video shows you. Both Tiefling and the warlock both have many more defining characteristics than the heavy, and so try to show all of the information we received about them in the video ostensively would have taken a lot longer time to do. Having the characters tell you the information in this case is much more efficient.
What did we really obtain in the video? Gnomes are in the MM and are apparently happy about it. Tieflings are Romanian and, when rolled as warlocks, get a lot of abilities (that were only named, not elaborated upon) that are basically just warlock abilities. Using the TF2 example again, Engies get turrets, explosives, and I vaguely recall a shotgun.
And I am not saying it has to be super pretty and awesome. I was referring more towards managing to get across information without reading the manual to us. It could very well be a Warlock in a "fight" against an unknown opponent. She uses one of the abilities mentioned in the flash, and then you hear the Gnome scream for his Badger. They then start talking with a bit of metahumor/Gnome saying "It is okay guys, WotC knows what they are doing. I like being in the Monster Manual" and what not. Make it feel like DnD, and not just some generic crap. It doesn't even have to be pretty, could just be "first turn, use ability on unseen opponent", then they talk.


Also, there have been 4 TF2 videos made (by a professional game developer) in almost year, while they've already made 2 "On the Set" video's in as many months (and from a little single little known animator as well). I find asking for similar production values between the two to be ludicrous.
I don't really give a crap about the production value. What I care about is what they are trying to get across.

Look, it is obvious you either know the animator, really like them, or just really like what WotC is doing. It is obvious I don't know the animator, don't like the flashes, and really am getting annoyed with what WotC is doing. If I do migrate to 4e (a bit if), I would probably have to houserule so much stuff that I might as well look for a different system.

illathid
2007-12-23, 11:36 PM
Something indicative of the final product maybe? And when the end result is interactive, I would at least like something remotely informative, rather than just something that sounds like a 3-year old got into his older brother's PHB.

I was more going along the lines of actions that are just the player, and not the character. Like I said, it just looked like it was the guy who really doesn't like gnomes/likes Tieflings trying to justify himself. And his argument either indicates that he thinks all of us are idiots, or that they don't want us anymore. To draw a comic/tv parallel, think of Static Shock. Was a VERY interesting concept and had some great episodes. But, it felt like they were forsaking their previous fanbase (comic readers/people who like comics) in exchange for a different kind of audience (for crying out loud, there were more guest stars than villains).

I dunno. You might call that RPing, I call that changing the setting to conform to the characters.

What did we really obtain in the video? Gnomes are in the MM and are apparently happy about it. Tieflings are Romanian and, when rolled as warlocks, get a lot of abilities (that were only named, not elaborated upon) that are basically just warlock abilities. Using the TF2 example again, Engies get turrets, explosives, and I vaguely recall a shotgun.
And I am not saying it has to be super pretty and awesome. I was referring more towards managing to get across information without reading the manual to us. It could very well be a Warlock in a "fight" against an unknown opponent. She uses one of the abilities mentioned in the flash, and then you hear the Gnome scream for his Badger. They then start talking with a bit of metahumor/Gnome saying "It is okay guys, WotC knows what they are doing. I like being in the Monster Manual" and what not. Make it feel like DnD, and not just some generic crap. It doesn't even have to be pretty, could just be "first turn, use ability on unseen opponent", then they talk.

I don't really give a crap about the production value. What I care about is what they are trying to get across.

Look, it is obvious you either know the animator, really like them, or just really like what WotC is doing. It is obvious I don't know the animator, don't like the flashes, and really am getting annoyed with what WotC is doing. If I do migrate to 4e (a bit if), I would probably have to houserule so much stuff that I might as well look for a different system.

I'm not going to respond to each of your points in turn this time. Sorry.

I don't know the animator, these video's are my first exposure to him (although I do find them amusing), and I'm optimistic about what WotC is doing. That's not to say there aren't things I disagree with them about (like how they changed the planes, got rid of schools of magic, and seem to be overly relying on elemental themes). So take that for what you will.

Specifics aside, I just think it's silly to base one's ideas about 4e on an admitably tongue-in-cheek attempt at humor. It just seems like a lot of the distaste for 4e you're showing has more to do with the specific choices the animator and writer made in creating the video, rather than the choices the actually game designers (i.e. the important people :smallwink: ) have made.

Ryan Miller, the guy who wrote the video's script, said this (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14224563&postcount=30) about the video on the WotC board:


The cartoon is not a brand statement, it is not an indication of the direction the game is going - it's just a cartoon. I hardly think it will have an impact on the game itself. Although I do like the idea of being the guy who singlehandidly took out the biggest RPG in history...kinda villainous...

So I guess what I'm trying to say is, if you don't like the video that's fine, not everyone has the same tastes. But you shouldn't let a single flash cartoon have such a great influence over your idea's about a gaming system.

For example, I hate radio commercial for jewelry stores. I loathe them. I can't stand listening to them in the slightest. They actually make me physically angry (:smallfurious: ). But when I have to go buy a present for my girlfriend, where do I go? Yeah you guessed it, to one of the stores advertised (usually because I've heard some recomendations, or have actually seen what they cary).

Does that make sense?

Gundato
2007-12-24, 12:13 AM
Aye, but if you are shopping for a touching necklace and the store advertises about "bling" and the like, are you really going to go there? They might have the good stuff in the back, but it is obvious they have more Platinum clocks than diamond rings (that you would feel comfortable giving your significant other :p).

It isn't just this, but this is just what the thread is about. I have made it a point to not follow this TOO closely, but stuff like the "revamped" spells-per-day system, the emphasis on the online client (which, truth be told, I like), and advertising campaigns like this make me fearful that they are going for a different demographic.

Although, I do find it hilarious that they are planning on killing off most of the major characters and the like, but somehow I suspect that Drizzt will continue to adventure well into the new edition :p

Admiral_Kelly
2007-12-26, 01:33 PM
Nice video! :smallsmile: In my opinion, this interpretation of the gnome is alot better than the usual dwarf-wannabes in D&D, Warcraft, and alot of fictional games. I also liked the tiefling, but she struck me more as a demon than a descendant of a demon. The accent was also a nice touch.

Thrythlind
2007-12-26, 01:40 PM
The biggest thing I thought when I saw that was "Man, I would love to have a badger minion..."

Besides that, it didn't really give us that much info, since we knew most of the stuff before (for instance, that there's a power to use eldritch blast against multiple foes).

Ah, I remember my first 3.0 character, a snake-woman race using the racial stats of an elf. She was a cleric/sorceress and had a penchant for summoning badgers into battle...and dire badgers...


ahhh good times.

GimliFett
2007-12-26, 02:13 PM
Personally, as soon as I'm able I will play a 4e gnome. I like the fey-ness of the new gnome, plus it separates them further from both dwarves and halflings...