Erfworld 88, Parson's Klog Page 9 [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

rosebud

2007-12-20, 06:30 AM

I think the time for real world commentary on Royals was a century ago. (Of course, I'm merely an American. But still, WWI ended most of it and WWII ended most of what remained.)

Anyhow, regarding the klog, if it took him 4 hours to climb, how does that affect the time of day and his ability to plan? Do we have a strong notion of time in this world?

It looks like Soft, Acid, Hard, and Metal golems are depicted up top. Acid is funky, and the one metal is cute. Losing gobwins must hurt; that's nearly half the units listed in his happy meal (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0084.html).

And if there's no more Gobwin alliance, is it still Gobwin Knob?

ralphmerridew

2007-12-20, 06:46 AM

Where did it say he lost gobwins?

Sledge_bro

2007-12-20, 06:48 AM

I loved the golems at the top of the page :)

nice work

SteveMB

2007-12-20, 06:54 AM

It looks like Soft, Acid, Hard, and Metal golems are depicted up top. Acid is funky, and the one metal is cute. Losing gobwins must hurt; that's nearly half the units listed in his happy meal (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0084.html).

And if there's no more Gobwin alliance, is it still Gobwin Knob?

I think the "Gobwins broke their alliance" comment is a reference to the fall of Saline IV, not current events.

SandroTheMaster

2007-12-20, 07:39 AM

I too liked the references to Holy Wars. It is probably a punch at both Crusades and the War On Terror (both sides).

About the golems, the Acid Rock really took me by surprise. Doesn't the Soft Rock one looks like a booped up Beatle? Anywho, the Metal golem seems like he rocks in the battlefield!

Vethyx

2007-12-20, 08:19 AM

Nice, well from the description of Sizemore's current activities it looks like the marbits coming through the tunnels are going to have a rather bad time of it :P. And I really do hope we get to see some of those Golems in action. The soft rock guy doesnt look to impressive, (then again most things in Erf tend toward the cutesy side regardless of ability) but I'd really like to see the Metal Golem busting some heads! :P

Caledonian

2007-12-20, 08:58 AM

Hmmm...

What happens to your wargame scenarios after the game ends?

Maybe the world was originally meant to serve as venue for a wargame played by the Titans... which they played, and left. And the world was left behind...

Surfing HalfOrc

2007-12-20, 09:05 AM

Hmmm... Coalitions are not solid, but can and do come apart? And a demonstrated weak ally is one of the few resources Parson has available to him.

There has been a lot of talk about Parson just surrendering. What happens if the Gobwins suddenly lay down their arms, and throw themselves on the mercy of Ansom?

And the train wreck continues. It's horrible, but I can't look away. :smallconfused:

JordanGreywolf

2007-12-20, 09:09 AM

I know the sentiment has already been stated by others, but I just had to chime in: the "rock golems" are awesome!

SteveMB

2007-12-20, 09:10 AM

"Royals claim to trace their lineage back to days of Titans."

Hmmm... what exactly does "lineage" mean in an Erfworld context? Given that royals and nobles pop in cities under royal rule, perhaps it refers to the king setting production orders for another royal to be heir in case he gets croaked (or perhaps to split off part of the realm if it gets too big?).

EDIT: That last parenthetical comment might relate to Ansom's comment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0021.html) that a large alliance is a hardship on its members.

Or it could just mean that the overall concept of rule by royals goes back to the beginning of the world (or is believed to do so).

Hmmm... Coalitions are not solid, but can and do come apart? And a demonstrated weak ally is one of the few resources Parson has available to him.

There has been a lot of talk about Parson just surrendering. What happens if the Gobwins suddenly lay down their arms, and throw themselves on the mercy of Ansom?

And the train wreck continues. It's horrible, but I can't look away. :smallconfused:

No wonder Parson keeps coming back to the notion that maybe he can just wake up and it will all go away. :smalleek:

Calemyr

2007-12-20, 09:36 AM

Personally, I think what he's getting at is that there's no reason for Gobwin Knob to simply curl up and die just because its overlord is gone. The majority of the population belongs to tribesmen these days anyway, it seems, and they CAN operate freelance if they choose.

In other words, Stanley REALLY screwed up. Not only did he cut himself off from his most vital resources, but he just added a new player to the game - one that does not play by their rules and does not share their goals.

Also, the insinuation about the gobwins breaking their alliance is that they were convinced to side with Stanley and their actions were designed by him to put himself into power without personally commiting regicide. If they sided with Stan against the king, why wouldn't they side with Parson once their overlord had abandoned them?

sihnfahl

2007-12-20, 09:49 AM

Nice, well from the description of Sizemore's current activities it looks like the marbits coming through the tunnels are going to have a rather bad time of it :P.
But then again, the marbits going through the tunnels is just a feint. While Sizemore is busy putting golems and traps into the tunnels, the above-ground defenses aren't being reinforced. Also, shifting units down to defend the tunnels also reduces the number of troops 'up top'... and GK doesn't have a lot of units to spare.

Or it could just mean that the overall concept of rule by royals goes back to the beginning of the world (or is believed to do so).
Well, if it's a game world, and Royals get special rules (stronger and level faster), then it's by the design of the Titans. Since they stand out like that compared to everyone else, they're inherently 'superior'.

If they sided with Stan against the king, why wouldn't they side with Parson once their overlord had abandoned them?
Because Parson's not that strong of a leader (he's only got a bonus of 2 and has only been in the game a few turns; he has no experience or readable stats). In a turn or two, Ansom will be sailing in, and he's both a Royal and has a high leadership bonus. If the Gobwin's allegiances are so fluid, they'll go to the stronger leader. Turn on the units loyal to Stanley, put down their arms and let Ansom take over.

SteveMB

2007-12-20, 10:17 AM

But then again, the marbits going through the tunnels is just a feint. While Sizemore is busy putting golems and traps into the tunnels, the above-ground defenses aren't being reinforced. Also, shifting units down to defend the tunnels also reduces the number of troops 'up top'... and GK doesn't have a lot of units to spare.

Parson knows that it's a feint, but that knowledge doesn't help him all that much -- if he doesn't defend the tunnels at all, Ansom can just escalate the feint into a full-scale assualt. (Ansom's comment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0021.html) that he hopes to trick Stanley into committing uncroaked units to the tunnels would seem to imply that the tunnels and the city proper are considered separate locations, and forces can't be moved between them during the enemy's turn).

sihnfahl

2007-12-20, 10:26 AM

Parson knows that it's a feint, but that knowledge doesn't help him all that much -- if he doesn't defend the tunnels at all, Ansom can just escalate the feint into a full-scale assualt. (Ansom's comment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0021.html) that he hopes to trick Stanley into committing uncroaked units to the tunnels would seem to imply that the tunnels and the city proper are considered separate locations, and forces can't be moved between them during the enemy's turn).
Quite the predicament, isn't it? If he doesn't give the marbits a tough time of it, Ansom will see the weakness and exploit it. If he DOES give the marbits a tough time of it, he's using up necessary resources to counter the units up top.

It also intimates that the tunnels are multi-hex as well.

When you take stock of Parson's situation... well, the no-win scenario seems to be true here, barring something 'special' occurring.

Doopliss

2007-12-20, 10:59 AM

So this combined with the "Regicide" comment, combined with last page's elaboration on Stanley's rise to power strongly suggests you can bribe (using the term loosely here) the tribes to turn against their current alliance.

So is there anything the Marbits want that Parson can give, and a way to protect their tribe from Ansom if they betray? Sounds like even the elves, which Ansom has a lot of, aren't actually his troops. If so, they could cause a lot of trouble from behind the frontlines. Maybe even croak some of the leaders.

If there's a way he can get a sizable number of them on his side, and the element of surprise, it could end the battle right there. Though I don't really see a way right now, so this is probably meaningless speculation unless something gets revealed later.

Piercer

2007-12-20, 11:15 AM

My theory is the foolamancer has found a large number of wild Dwagons, Stanley will recruit them using the arkenhammer and return in the nick of time to retake GK.

sihnfahl

2007-12-20, 11:55 AM

So is there anything the Marbits want that Parson can give, and a way to protect their tribe from Ansom if they betray? Sounds like even the elves, which Ansom has a lot of, aren't actually his troops. If so, they could cause a lot of trouble from behind the frontlines. Maybe even croak some of the leaders.
GK's treasury is below 150k. There are no gems left. GK is about to be assaulted by not just marbits, but tons of elves, gwiffons, pegataurs, etc. Parson is a new unit with no experience, no stats and in de facto control of a side that has no real influence in the world anymore. Parson doesn't even which marbit to talk to to propose the alliance. Not to mention Parson's not a royal - the royals would keep pounding GK anyway. It would be suicide for them to switch allegiances.

My theory is the foolamancer has found a large number of wild Dwagons, Stanley will recruit them using the arkenhammer and return in the nick of time to retake GK.
He's a foolamancer, not a lookamancer. His skills are illusions, not finding things (not to mention he's loopier than a bat ATM).
Also, with the trimancer setup Stanley had in GK, don't you think he would have found those 'wild dwagons' already while Misty was alive? Whatever dwagons were around GK have already been found and tamed.

DrivinAllNight

2007-12-20, 12:32 PM

Even if Sizemore has all of his Golems that's only 19 Crap, and 16 good ones. That still leaves about 800 more troops that could conceivable be up top ready to fight, to bad the numbers of the incoming troops far outweigh them. And hopefully before battle, little miss Croakamancer Wanda will get off her butt and do something useful for Team Parson. Oh, and the Ricatta Cheese in a Condom comment was awesome, that would make a good insult someday if needed.

multilis

2007-12-20, 01:25 PM

Stanley might just save the day... by attacking a different city before the GK falls, drawing most of the attacking force after him. Charlie and Ansom's cities are the most obvious choices.

Fez

2007-12-20, 01:50 PM

What I find interesting about the klog is that we have finally moved beyond a wargame, at least any classic tabletop one.

Royals get bonuses/level faster - ok
There are non-'nation' groups you can ally with to get troops/bonuses - ok

But royal empires sometimes go off and spawn new nations? That's contrary to a boardgame model where you conquer to grow and eventually 'end' the game. If you grow enough that a new side is formed, the game doesn't end.

Similarly, royals tend to stick together and gang up when non royal nations are formed isn't really a wargame sort of 'rule'. The only way it would be is if you assumed the players could only run royal nations, and non-royal ones are 'npc' nations for you to fight and conquer.

ShinyBrowncoat

2007-12-20, 01:58 PM

But royal empires sometimes go off and spawn new nations? That's contrary to a boardgame model where you conquer to grow and eventually 'end' the game. If you grow enough that a new side is formed, the game doesn't end.

In CIV4, you can split off overseas colonies into their own nations, but it's a choice based on wanting to cut maintenance and management overhead (and eliminating all the other civs is not the only way to win the game)

Similarly, royals tend to stick together and gang up when non royal nations are formed isn't really a wargame sort of 'rule'. The only way it would be is if you assumed the players could only run royal nations, and non-royal ones are 'npc' nations for you to fight and conquer.

Well, the only PC we know of is Parson...everyone else in Erfworld might just as well be an NPC...

osricjm

2007-12-20, 02:10 PM

As for the Golems: I think I got Mick Jagger, Jimi Hendrix and James Hetfield, couldn't pin the middle one tho

Tundar

2007-12-20, 02:32 PM

I love Monty Python quotes :smallbiggrin:

Winterwind

2007-12-20, 02:41 PM

This is getting scary. Okay, it was scary before, but it just got so tenfold. If the gobwins are free to choose their own allegiance, why would they ever stay loyal to Parson's side, which for anyone except us (who are equipped with the meta-knowledge that he is the protagonist) seems absolutely booped, doomed and hopeless? On Ansom's side, an easy victory awaits; on Parson's side, only certain death.

Only thing I can think of is that they know something we don't yet (like, that Ansom loathes traitors even more than non-royals turned overlords, and would hence not spare them if they switched sides).

BarGamer

2007-12-20, 02:42 PM

All this talk of goblin tribes and where Stanley went made me remember: Didn't Ansom dissolve the alliance with the Tardy Elves at the beginning of the comic? Maybe Stanley went to recruit them?

Awesome golems. It's totally a coincidence that I was playing Rock Band last night, too. XDDD

A maze down in the tunnels + spiders sounds like the best setup, if I were setting up defenses.

multilis

2007-12-20, 02:50 PM

If the gobwins are free to choose their own allegiance, why would they ever stay loyal to Parson's side
In some games certain factions don't like each other such as goblins and elves. It is possible to combine such, but then moral goes down and you risk a 10%-50% chance of revolt every turn unless you have enough happy units to balance the unhappy ones.

So far Erfworld has fit with the normal race alliances/likes, eg the trees and elves verses dragons and goblins. Much of this goes back to LOTR books. Humans tend to be in middle, can work with either side to a limited extent.

...

Royals may split off to form own kingdom... not all of Ansom's tribe are fans of Jillian.

fendrin

2007-12-20, 03:22 PM

Erfworld rocks. Soft, Acid, Hard, and Heavy Metal.

We don't have a definition of 'conquering' yet. It might be that so long as there are any GK troops or warlords remain in the city (in which I include the tunnels), the city stays in Stanley's hands. Of course that means that the primary goal of any invasion would be to kill the overlord and any heirs.

Yup, Stanley may have saved them all by fleeing...

I'm thinking that Sizemore & co. will take out the marbits with ease, and Parson will set up shop in the tunnels running an insurgency.

Surfing HalfOrc

2007-12-20, 03:38 PM

Erfworld rocks. Soft, Acid, Hard, and Heavy Metal.

Yeah, I think that too, despite my carping about Jillian and the dwagon slaughter. :smallwink:

I'm thinking that Sizemore & co. will take out the marbits with ease, and Parson will set up shop in the tunnels running an insurgency.

Oddly enough, that was the first option Parson actually liked. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0041.html) :smallcool:

But somehow that doesn't seem like a "brilliant" solution. It's more of an "ugly, tedious, and fraught with danger" solution.

EdgarVerona

2007-12-20, 03:40 PM

Good catch on the Golems. =) I didn't realize it was them.

ShinyBrowncoat

2007-12-20, 03:43 PM

All this talk of goblin tribes and where Stanley went made me remember: Didn't Ansom dissolve the alliance with the Tardy Elves at the beginning of the comic? Maybe Stanley went to recruit them?

Yes, but they'd never get there on time. ;)

(unless he was recruiting them to attack a different city they were already nearby to)

Justyn

2007-12-20, 03:54 PM

Yes, but they'd never get there on time. ;)

(unless he was recruiting them to attack a different city they were already nearby to)

Ah, well, one option would be to recuit the Hasty Elves in addition to the Tardy Elves. Maybe even the Expediant Elves just to be of more help.

fendrin

2007-12-20, 04:01 PM

But somehow that doesn't seem like a "brilliant" solution. It's more of an "ugly, tedious, and fraught with danger" solution.
Compared to the medieval-style tactics that seem tp be predominant in Erfworld, it is brilliant.

Especially if Stanley is out of reach. How many Overlords would leave the city? Sure, that's probably not WHY Stanley left, but it sure is helpful.

Wender

2007-12-20, 04:16 PM

Compared to the medieval-style tactics that seem tp be predominant in Erfworld, it is brilliant.

It would be the best use of the remaining forces. Gobwins are miners. Undead are... undead... but they'd be safe from aerial attacks and relatively safe from area-effect attacks. Ansom could only vaporize so many at a time in the confines of the tunnels.

The best part is that if Stanley flew back to GK invisible, he'd see Ansom's troops everywhere, his own troops nowhere, the radish flying from the tower, and he'd be almost 100% likely to come to the wrong conclusion. And Ansom would be wondering why he still couldn't control the treasury even though he, by all visible measures, had taken control of the city.

Surfing HalfOrc

2007-12-20, 04:28 PM

Compared to the medieval-style tactics that seem tp be predominant in Erfworld, it is brilliant.

Especially if Stanley is out of reach. How many Overlords would leave the city? Sure, that's probably not WHY Stanley left, but it sure is helpful.

Um... I don't know. Insurgencies existed in medieval days, as they do now. Sun Tsu wrote of them thousands of years ago.

But there is very little "brilliance" in an insurgency. Sniping and sowing hate and discontent, but generally insurgencies are done on the basis of irritate the enemy until they either give up and go away, or hold on until a larger force arrives to drive the enemy away.

Watching Parson plot attacks on random officers at the Erfworld equivalent of a sidewalk cafe would be a bit more interesting than say, indexing an encyclopedia. But not by a huge margin. :smallannoyed:

Foogoo

2007-12-20, 04:55 PM

Well, if Stanley took all the remaining dwagons, which i believe he did, right? anyway if he did, then really the only option would be to fight from the tunnels, what with Ansom having complete air superiority.

the tunnels would completely neutralize air superiority, and at least partially neutralize numerical superiority. Also, it has been stated that gobwins get bonuses from tunnel fighting. Which is helpful as long as the gobwins don't bail on GK. Which... you know, prolly will happen.

Mysticaloctopus

2007-12-20, 05:05 PM

I still like the idea of the superweapon or secret weakness options. They seem most likely, given that it's a webcomic. Of course, a sudden and crushing blow happens suddenly at the climax of the story arc, and until then, we're going to be getting some different tactics like parson is thinking about. My money is on the insurgency in tunnels thing, as it's that or march out and croak or stand inside the gates and croak.

sihnfahl

2007-12-20, 05:13 PM

Well, if Stanley took all the remaining dwagons, which i believe he did, right? anyway if he did, then really the only option would be to fight from the tunnels, what with Ansom having complete air superiority.
Right. Stanley took all the dwagons; GK has no more air units. They're also limited to a mere 32 archery units. They won't last a single turn. Ansom had enough air units to handle all of Stanley's dwagons (around 50 when we started). So, in one turn, all Ansom's fliers take out the archery units. Begin bombardment after that.

the tunnels would completely neutralize air superiority, and at least partially neutralize numerical superiority. Also, it has been stated that gobwins get bonuses from tunnel fighting. Which is helpful as long as the gobwins don't bail on GK. Which... you know, prolly will happen.
While this is true, there's also the possibility that the marbits also get tunnel fighting bonuses - there has to be a reason, beyond sheer numbers, that Ansom would be using nothing but marbits in the tunnel feint.

Also, if Ansom controls GK proper, including the Tower, that may signal a 'win' condition for him. Treasury falls under his control, all units relying on that treasury either disband or are forced to change allegiances.

The gobwins would most likely change allegiances, yes. They've done it before and they'll do it again.

Bongos

2007-12-20, 05:29 PM

As for the Golems: I think I got Mick Jagger, Jimi Hendrix and James Hetfield, couldn't pin the middle one tho

Danzig? for the hard rock golem?

A small observation about the gobwin allegiance, with Saline IV it was a voluntary allegiance, but with Stanley it sure seemed like they were conquered. Is there a difference?

Or was Saline IV an original part of Gobwin Knob? It seems gobwins are, perhaps Saline was from the outside invited into Gobwin Knob, perhaps to help them win battles?

Maybe when the gobwins thought they were strong enough they got rid of Saline? (thinking it would disband Stanley). Maybe his upkeep was to high?

I mean its Gobwin Knob named after Gobwins, did this happen after the insurrection or before? Why wouldn't Stanley have named it back?

Is it significant that all of Stanley's warlords are human and not gobwin? Perhaps he still doesn't fully trust the gobwins.

I don't have a clue as to the origins of the Plaid tribe

Doopliss

2007-12-20, 05:31 PM

GK's treasury is below 150k. There are no gems left. GK is about to be assaulted by not just marbits, but tons of elves, gwiffons, pegataurs, etc. Parson is a new unit with no experience, no stats and in de facto control of a side that has no real influence in the world anymore. Parson doesn't even which marbit to talk to to propose the alliance. Not to mention Parson's not a royal - the royals would keep pounding GK anyway. It would be suicide for them to switch allegiances.I did say I didn't see a way it could be done and was probably meaningless speculation right below that. But if the Marbits/Elves rebelled and got first pick of hexes to attack, it definitely wouldn't be suicide. Depending on what they hypothetically want, it could even be a short term deal. Also, if the coalition fails this time, it's going to take them a long while to build up enough forces to take Erfworld's most defensible position, especially with Parson in command. Assuming he can conquer enough other areas to get some real income.

Foogoo

2007-12-20, 06:44 PM

Vreejack

2007-12-20, 06:50 PM

But royal empires sometimes go off and spawn new nations? That's contrary to a boardgame model where you conquer to grow and eventually 'end' the game. If you grow enough that a new side is formed, the game doesn't end.

Civ IV with the latest addition will allow you to spawn off nations. When your empire becomes unwieldy it can be beneficial to create a friendly new ally out of a distant territory rather than to try to rule it directly. The record-keeping for this sort of thing is beyond a mere board game, but so is Erfworld.

ShinyBrowncoat

2007-12-20, 07:48 PM

Is it significant that all of Stanley's warlords are human and not gobwin? Perhaps he still doesn't fully trust the gobwins.

That's a good point; I hadn't thought of that. It might well point to a (well founded) distrust of the gobwins on Stanley's part.

Tarnace

2007-12-20, 08:11 PM

Very Dissapointed...

So there have been 3 "klogs" in the last 5 issues... non of which add alot to the main story or problems at hand. Isn't this book supposed to be updated twice a week? Id rather have the plot move forward then be paused, especially now since it seems we are only getting one issue a week.

I have faithfully read Erfworld since it first appeared and now I realize I only continue to do so out of boredom at work. The fact of the matter is - this comic has potential but it could be alot better.

The plot line is hard to see - so hard we get "Klogs" to catch us up but... good writing doesnt need "Klogs". Plot points catch us unexpectantly then we get the explination later. With Erf we get a world that doesnt make any sence, a battle that no one knows the rules to, and 88 pages latter parson is still lost fighting the same enemy without a "seeming" hope at all. In fact his situation only gets worse and worse as time goes on but from what I remember it started off hopeless to begin with so 88 pages latter hes still were he started, just with more useless undefined details in late draw out bad writing.

Isnt Erf a giant conquest game? I mean we don't see any other factions at all (major conquesting factions not hirelings and peons). By page 100 parson should be onto tackling/defending against the next threat not sitting around picking his butt but at this rate he may or may not even be starting the first battle for this place by issue 100.

On the plus side I will admit that Erf has some good visual design that can be both unique and stimulating, the characters are well defined and the "Erfyness" is very apparent. Ironically, comics like Order of the Stick are a lot less visual stimulating and yet ithey are much more appealing and enjoyable.

So I guess what im saying is that I agree with Sizemore. I mean Erfworld is a standard book with nothing overly special and decent visuals. The story is slow, awkward, and confusing but some potential remains. There are at least 100 web comics at buzzcomics that are just as good or better then this one

So remeber folks, when life gives you crap - make crap golems. I'm starting to think Erfworld is a crap golem in comic form.

Winterwind

2007-12-20, 08:16 PM

That's a good point; I hadn't thought of that. It might well point to a (well founded) distrust of the gobwins on Stanley's part.Quite possible; on the other hand, it might just as well be no more but the result of Stanley's insistance on "handsome" warlords, and him not considering gobwins to be handsome. :smallwink:

SteveMB

2007-12-20, 08:22 PM

Is it significant that all of Stanley's warlords are human and not gobwin? Perhaps he still doesn't fully trust the gobwins.

The gobwins could possibly break their alliance with him. In that case, the shmuckers spent on elevating them to warlords would be worse than wasted -- it would actually benefit the new opposition.

His human warlords are presumably part of the Plaid tribe. Parson mentions royal empires sometimes splitting off new sides, but I doubt that's an issue when the "empire" consists of one city under a non-royal overlord.

hajo

2007-12-20, 08:31 PM

But royal empires sometimes go off and spawn new nations?
I could imagine several ways for this to happen:
* founding a new 'colony' - the peaceful way
* dividing a kingdom between several heirs, perhaps as a succession-war
* good old treason / struggle for power inside a royal family

fendrin

2007-12-20, 08:36 PM

Well, I think that we can all agree that there is no chance of victory for Lord Hamster. At least knowing what we know. However, the best strategy is still relevant, as it buys the GK forces time to find the inevitable superweapon (see: plot cannon) or exploit.

No, I don't think we can claim that. Though, I'm wondering if they are just going to be holding out until Stanley kills King Jetstone.

So there have been 3 "klogs" in the last 5 issues... non of which add alot to the main story or problems at hand. Isn't this book supposed to be updated twice a week? Id rather have the plot move forward then be paused, especially now since it seems we are only getting one issue a week.
The creators have stated that they are not going to be able to maintain the original pace because of personal reasons- such as family members in the hospital. I'm happy to be getting what we are.

The plot line is hard to see - so hard we get "Klogs" to catch us up but... good writing doesnt need "Klogs". Plot points catch us unexpectantly then we get the explination later. With Erf we get a world that doesnt make any sence, a battle that no one knows the rules to, and 88 pages latter parson is still lost fighting the same enemy without a "seeming" hope at all. In fact his situation only gets worse and worse as time goes on but from what I remember it started off hopeless to begin with so 88 pages latter hes still were he started, just with more useless undefined details in late draw out bad writing.
First off, I completely disagree. I have had no problem following the plot, and have found the klogs to be fun and informative, but not necessary.

Second off, if you can do better, make your own booping comic. I'll read that one too. If not, stop complaining.

Isnt Erf a giant conquest game? I mean we don't see any other factions at all (major conquesting factions not hirelings and peons). By page 100 parson should be onto tackling/defending against the next threat not sitting around picking his butt but at this rate he may or may not even be starting the first battle for this place by issue 100.
Well, that's your interpretation. I never saw anything saying Erf is a conquest game, or more importantly, that the comic is about Parson dominating Erf. That might be an interesting comic, but this isn't that comic.

SteveMB

2007-12-20, 08:40 PM

No, I don't think we can claim that. Though, I'm wondering if they are just going to be holding out until Stanley kills King Jetstone.

What Stanley intends to do is an open question. The simplest interpretation is that he's simply running away (at least for the time being), but we won't know for sure until we see him again (or this chapter ends without him showing up again).

hajo

2007-12-20, 08:50 PM

Well, if Stanley took all the remaining dwagons, which i believe he did, right?
I think Stanley is out to make a sneak-attack on one of the arkentools.

We know about only the arkenplyers in possession of Ansom, but maybe
Stanley knew about the location of one of the other two known tools ?

Depending on the outcome of that action, any number of things might happen.

Lamech

2007-12-20, 09:40 PM

I'm guessing Stanley is sneak attacking another city to start over. Using the dwagons and his Arkenhammer was how he got GK in the first place.

Foogoo

2007-12-20, 10:32 PM

I think Stanley is out to make a sneak-attack on one of the arkentools.

We know about only the arkenplyers in possession of Ansom, but maybe
Stanley knew about the location of one of the other two known tools ?

Depending on the outcome of that action, any number of things might happen.

I don't believe that Stanley knows the location of another arkentool other than the arkenhammer and pliers. He seems so singlemindedly focused on their importance that he presumably would have already made a move. Or at least he would have mentioned it at some point.

jere7my

2007-12-21, 12:11 AM

As for the Golems: I think I got Mick Jagger, Jimi Hendrix and James Hetfield, couldn't pin the middle one tho

Hrm...I think it very unlikely that Mick is a soft rock anything. That golem sports a goatee, anyway. EDIT: Also, your Jimi has boobies.

the_tick_rules

2007-12-21, 12:35 AM

another klog?

Fez

2007-12-21, 01:29 AM

Civ IV with the latest addition will allow you to spawn off nations. When your empire becomes unwieldy it can be beneficial to create a friendly new ally out of a distant territory rather than to try to rule it directly. The record-keeping for this sort of thing is beyond a mere board game, but so is Erfworld.

Yes, computer wargames sometimes have the idea you have limited control points, so if you grow past that you tend to have to change government types or split. Usually those split nations would then be vassal states that you can keep loyal with work. There have been a couple games like that (Haven't played Civ IV to know though)

However, Parson comes from a boardgame world. He was running his players through his tabletop games, and had been creating an Erfworld like environment.

I just find it interesting, it is a case of Erfworld being designed to be open ended, with kingdoms growing and spawning new kingdoms, which is again contrary to a tabletop wargame which is designed to 'end', by having one faction grow to a certain % of the board, capture key provinces, get needed items, often with various options allowing a player to claim the win.

So here is a question, if the victory conditions in Erfworld (assuming there is such a thing) don't include a conquest option (for royal kingdoms at least, overlords might in fact need to win by conquest), what are some other win conditions?

Get X number of the Arkentools?
Have so many pieces on the board?
Controlling the capitals of so many other factions (which is a bit different from conquest).
Having a treasury over a certain amount?
Summoning the Titans?

In the end, Parson doesn't just need to learn the mechanics of Erfworld, he needs to learn what the objective of the game is. If you don't know what you need to win, you can't do well at the game.

PS - As for the fellow complaining about the klogs. I assume this ties to Jaimie having commitments that affect time for art, and klogs require less art assets. Rather than complain, perhaps thank Jaimie and Rob for putting out klogs as a way to keep us involved and have content coming out, while Jaimie is dealing with other matters. Life is a series of compromises, and better to have some Erfworld content once or twice a week in the form of klogs, rather than none for 2 or 3 weeks at a time as full strips. So thanks Rob and Jaimie for listening to the fans who for the complaining are really saying 'You do good stuff, and we miss it when we don't get a new fix'. At least a klog keeps us coming back :)

Axl_Rose

2007-12-21, 01:55 AM

Parson seems to be developing some more cynicism towards war.

That's a broad and unjustified statement. At most you could say he's developing cynicism towards his situation in particular, though that is different from being cynical towards war in general.

rosebud

2007-12-21, 03:09 AM

I think the "Gobwins broke their alliance" comment is a reference to the fall of Saline IV, not current events.Thanks. That sounds correct, but dang, talk about additional handicapping if that was the case! :smallbiggrin:

I too liked the references to Holy Wars. It is probably a punch at both Crusades and the War On Terror (both sides).I don't follow. I guess you could argue that Charlie played the role of Venice and Genoa, but Venice was happy to play with all sides so long as it got paid. There does not seem to be any Papacy, though, nor Byzantium, Albi, Sultinates, Slavs, or much analogous so far. As for the so-called WoT, there's no non-state aggressor as one major side of the conflict, so, again, I don't see the analogy.

As for Holy Wars, divine right was the handy tool of non-royals become royals to deter non-royals from claiming royalty. Amongst cousins and younger children, though, there were plenty of opportunities for conflict and alliances were fluid. I don't see any strong analogs here.

Hmmm... what exactly does "lineage" mean in an Erfworld context?The chain of rulers. eg, Adam produced Cain (http://www.d.umn.edu/~jbelote/bible2.html) who produced Enoch who produced ... and so forth to Ansom or whatever other part of the tree you're tracing.

Not to mention Parson's not a royal - the royals would keep pounding GK anyway.Parson is Special (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0084.html). Maybe he's divine?

On Ansom's side, an easy victory awaits; on Parson's side, only certain death.Yeah, the group who deprived Jillian her inheritance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0074.html) allying with Ansom. That makes, um, no sense. I could see a retreat, but switching alliances does not seem to guarantee their survival.

I just find it interesting, it is a case of Erfworld being designed to be open endedThe library does detail many battles and who won (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0048.html). Perhaps it is just a world of tabletops?

Well, I think that we can all agree that there is no chance of victory for Lord Hamster.Uh, we can?

One interesting possibility would be if collapsing the city (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0086.html) while Ansom's troops were inside would give him a Pyrrhic victory. If that causes the ruler of one or more cities to croak and result in those cities becoming free, Parson could possibly set up shop somewhere else.

hajo

2007-12-21, 06:05 AM

I'm guessing Stanley is sneak attacking another city to start over.

Page 72 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0078.html) seems to indicate that he thinks he has to personally go for the arkentools, not start over with another army / city.

Using the dwagons and his Arkenhammer was how he got GK in the first place.
No, he was promoted to warlord under King Saline even before finding the hammer, see Page 79 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0087.html)

Gitman00

2007-12-21, 08:37 AM

That's a broad and unjustified statement. At most you could say he's developing cynicism towards his situation in particular, though that is different from being cynical towards war in general.

Broad, yes; hardly unjustified.

"Is this a real holy war, or just a bunch of deluded boopholes croaking each other? Too fine a distinction?"

Read: What's the difference?

This suggests that he's doubting that any war (okay, fine, any holy war) has a legitimate purpose. It's a marked character development for Parson, who has always seen war as a game. He's gone from, "Yes! I got my wish! I've been transported into a wargame and I can play it all day long!" to "Holy boop. People really die here. I could die too. What's the point of all this?"

It's also a reasonable progression, based on Page 77's revelation:

"This is hardball, man... This is booping hard core."

and Klog 8's existential struggles:

"...everything's cute. Like it's been made safe for children. The people even look like children. Except then they die. What is that?"

Now, he's starting to come to terms with his situation being real, and on top of that, things are looking more and more hopeless. He thinks, "What's the point of this war in the first place? Come to think of it, what's the point of any war?

EDIT: Now that I think of it, this could be a jumping-off point for even more character development. He's been operating under the assumption that he'll eventually wake up. As his situation gets more hopeless he starts thinking, "This game isn't fun any more. I don't wanna play. I wanna wake up!" And then... he can't. He's stuck here whether he likes it or not. So now he's got to find a real reason to fight beyond just having fun with the strategy.

hidden_agenda

2007-12-21, 12:23 PM

I'm guessing Stanley is sneak attacking another city to start over. Using the dwagons and his Arkenhammer was how he got GK in the first place.

Well it will have to be a city that fulfills a bunch of conditions:
1) lightly defended (perhaps because it's part of the alliance and its army is elsewhere?)
2) weak defenses (Stanely has no siege engines)
3) great unit factory (he needs somewhere that can generate good units to amass a separate army before the alliance turns to its new target)

This does make it seem less likely that it is, in fact, the route he is taking... (Although not impossible).

multilis

2007-12-21, 01:59 PM

Well it will have to be a city that fulfills a bunch of conditions:
3) great unit factory (he needs somewhere that can generate good units to amass a separate army before the alliance turns to its new target)

A poor unit factory can still be useful. He isn't trapped in the new city any more than GK, he can go from city to city if the first one isn't very useful.

One form of war is to play hit and run on enemy cities, forcing the enemy to protect himself so much that he loses initiative. Stanley has both cloaking and mobillity (and huge leadership/tool bonus?) so this may be viable. He may sacrifice KISS units, then build replacement knights and move on.

The size of the alliance at GK doors may mean many poorly defended cities elsewhere.

Fez

2007-12-21, 08:07 PM

fendrin

2007-12-22, 09:13 AM

A logical place to go given his mobility is to hit Charlie.

Charlie seems to have an Arkentool satellite dish, and his agents are currently on hire besieging GK, so won't be able to get back to reinforce.

Defeat Charlie and you get a 2nd Arkentool, which when mastered gives control of the Archon troop type apparently, much as the pliers give control of the Dwagons.

Probably the least defended place, protected by an inability to hit without flying troops given the mountains.

1) If Charlie had an Arkentool, don't you think Wanda would have mentioned that to Parson when she was telling him that Stanley didn't like Charlie?

2) If the dish is a 'tool, Don't you think Stanley would have just flown up and yanked it off of the castle by now? Seriously, if the Archons were the the only defense, it would be easy to get past them to grab it. Throw three expendable units at them then fly past, the way Vinny proposed that he and ansom get out of the dwagon-ring trap. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0068.html)

3) The Archons seem to be high leveled human casters, not 'creatures'.

I'm guessing that Each tool has a different set of powers. If the dish is a 'tool (which I doubt) I'm guessing it has an instant communication power. Still, it's probably more like Parson's armband: a powerful magic item that replicates a type of magic: the dish would be a thinkamancy item.

PS - Going back to my earlier point about the game having an open ended nature with royal kingdoms spawning new kingdoms and that not fitting with tabletop rules, I think I figured that out.

Its a series of scenarios, thus the library books. Lots of separate wargames set in the same world, and whenever a major campaign is done that's the end of that 'game' and then the GM creates a new one often with new empires build from whoever won the last one to make a good story. That would fit the tabletop model. Or it could be that Erf is more than a game... It's a game-like world.
Or, as others have suggested, it's a not a game thats about conquering the world. If an overlord's domain is too large to be effectively managed, it is quite practical to spawn off a smaller kingdom. Large enough to reduce the workload on the original overlord, small enough to be easily crushed should they get greedy. Each battle is it's own table-top scenario. Each scenario becomes a book in the library. If Parson had more time, he could probably learn a lot from the library.

Surfing HalfOrc

2007-12-22, 09:35 AM

Or it could be that Erf is more than a game... It's a game-like world.
Or, as others have suggested, it's a not a game thats about conquering the world. If an overlord's domain is too large to be effectively managed, it is quite practical to spawn off a smaller kingdom. Large enough to reduce the workload on the original overlord, small enough to be easily crushed should they get greedy. Each battle is it's own table-top scenario. Each scenario becomes a book in the library. If Parson had more time, he could probably learn a lot from the library.

When I was grumbling, er commenting on whether or not Ansom had enough time to be able to leap to Jillian's rescue, many people said that "Time flows differently" in Erfworld.

So on that basis, Parson should be able to take as much time as he wants, read everything carefully, highlight the good stuff, and even write new material if he wishes, while Ansom cools his heels waiting on the horn. :smallwink:

Maybe part of "Playing the opponent" is the psychological frustration of screwing around on your turn, getting a soda from the machine, texting your girlfriend, talking with the store owner, tripping and "accientially" moving a few key pieces a few inches away or towards a certian location.

What's good for Ansom, is good for Parson.

fendrin

2007-12-22, 10:30 AM

When I was grumbling, er commenting on whether or not Ansom had enough time to be able to leap to Jillian's rescue, many people said that "Time flows differently" in Erfworld.

So on that basis, Parson should be able to take as much time as he wants, read everything carefully, highlight the good stuff, and even write new material if he wishes, while Ansom cools his heels waiting on the horn. :smallwink:

Maybe part of "Playing the opponent" is the psychological frustration of screwing around on your turn, getting a soda from the machine, texting your girlfriend, talking with the store owner, tripping and "accientially" moving a few key pieces a few inches away or towards a certian location.

What's good for Ansom, is good for Parson.

Hmm, you're right. It seems that time in Erfworld is even more complicated than I thought. It obviously ebbs and flows at variable rates, controlled by this mysterious, interconnecting, event driving, unstoppable force known as "PLOT!". :smalltongue:

SteveMB

2007-12-22, 11:48 AM

When I was grumbling, er commenting on whether or not Ansom had enough time to be able to leap to Jillian's rescue, many people said that "Time flows differently" in Erfworld.

So on that basis, Parson should be able to take as much time as he wants, read everything carefully, highlight the good stuff, and even write new material if he wishes, while Ansom cools his heels waiting on the horn. :smallwink:

Maybe part of "Playing the opponent" is the psychological frustration of screwing around on your turn, getting a soda from the machine, texting your girlfriend, talking with the store owner, tripping and "accientially" moving a few key pieces a few inches away or towards a certian location.

What's good for Ansom, is good for Parson.

If it was as simple as refusing to end your turn when you had a motive to delay, why would anybody ever lose a war? Clearly, it's not that simple.

Fez

2007-12-22, 12:21 PM

1) If Charlie had an Arkentool, don't you think Wanda would have mentioned that to Parson when she was telling him that Stanley didn't like Charlie?

2) If the dish is a 'tool, Don't you think Stanley would have just flown up and yanked it off of the castle by now? Seriously, if the Archons were the the only defense, it would be easy to get past them to grab it. Throw three expendable units at them then fly past, the way Vinny proposed that he and ansom get out of the dwagon-ring trap. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0068.html)

You can only go by clues. If you look at the picture of Charlie's place, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0046.html) you have a fantastical ice keep, with a very real world looking satellite dish, and one that seems to have a bit of a shimmer around it. The other more realistically drawn, real world item we have is the arkenhammer. If it isn't a tool, what is it doing in the game world and why would it shimmer? You're right though, it may be better defended than by a few archons even if it is a tool.

SteveMB

2007-12-22, 12:54 PM

You can only go by clues. If you look at the picture of Charlie's place, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0046.html) you have a fantastical ice keep, with a very real world looking satellite dish, and one that seems to have a bit of a shimmer around it. The other more realistically drawn, real world item we have is the arkenhammer. If it isn't a tool, what is it doing in the game world and why would it shimmer? You're right though, it may be better defended than by a few archons even if it is a tool.

When he's explaining (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0035.html) the eyebook to Parson, Sizemore distinguishes between "magic items" created by mortals and "artifacts" (presumably created by the Titans).

That implies that there are artifacts that are not Arkentools -- otherwise, why have two different words? Charlie's dish might be one of those.

Surfing HalfOrc

2007-12-22, 01:58 PM

If it was as simple as refusing to end your turn when you had a motive to delay, why would anybody ever lose a war? Clearly, it's not that simple.

Well, Ansom had a "motive" to cover two hexes (Center, across, ???(Jillian could have been on the near side)), and he took FULL advantage of it.

As a table top gamer of the hex type, the hexes can be of any size, usually depending on the practical aspects of the game, but usually measured in miles. Assuming (and it's a BIG assumption, so feel free to offer evidence of a different size), a six mile hex size, Ansom was 9 to 15 miles from Jillian's position, and he covered it in just a few minutes.

SteveMB

2007-12-22, 02:40 PM

Well, Ansom had a "motive" to cover two hexes (Center, across, ???(Jillian could have been on the near side)), and he took FULL advantage of it.

As a table top gamer of the hex type, the hexes can be of any size, usually depending on the practical aspects of the game, but usually measured in miles. Assuming (and it's a BIG assumption, so feel free to offer evidence of a different size), a six mile hex size, Ansom was 9 to 15 miles from Jillian's position, and he covered it in just a few minutes.

The relationship between tactical time as experienced by the characters and the sequence of turns appears to be a bit flexible. However, it can't be infinitely flexible, or a losing side could just hold out forever by refusing to end its turn.

(Hmmmm... do Erfworlders get hungry if the subjective time between turns gets too long? Even if the natives don't, what about Parson?)

Fez

2007-12-22, 02:42 PM

When he's explaining (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0035.html) the eyebook to Parson, Sizemore distinguishes between "magic items" created by mortals and "artifacts" (presumably created by the Titans).

That implies that there are artifacts that are not Arkentools -- otherwise, why have two different words? Charlie's dish might be one of those.

Sure, but take the eyebook. It looks like something from the fantasy world (a book) even if it performs a magic function that Parson finds familiar based on IM.

The hammer though is real world object that actually makes little sense in the fantasy world as an super powered item (a plastic toy hammer?), the pliers are also a real world item (red rubber handled pliers).

If it looks like it came from the real world it seems to be an artifact. If it has a fantasy 'skin' then it seems to be erfmagic.

In addition the hammer has a sort of magical shimmer around it which the eyebook doesn't. However, the satellite dish (which is a real world object) does have a magical shimmer around it.

SteveMB

2007-12-22, 02:48 PM

Sure, but take the eyebook. It looks like something from the fantasy world (a book) even if it performs a magic function that Parson finds familiar based on IM.

The hammer though is real world object that actually makes little sense in the fantasy world as an super powered item (a plastic toy hammer?), the pliers are also a real world item (red rubber handled pliers).

If it looks like it came from the real world it seems to be an artifact. If it has a fantasy 'skin' then it seems to be erfmagic.

In addition the hammer has a sort of magical shimmer around it which the eyebook doesn't. However, the satellite dish (which is a real world object) does have a magical shimmer around it.

OTOH, there are things that look like real-world items that are out of place in a fantasy world (e.g. Ansom's "Evel Knievel" helmet) that show no other sign of being artifacts (or even magic items).

Feriluce

2007-12-23, 07:37 AM

Would it be possible for Parson to just go it alone? Maybe parley with Ansom and just go on his way..?

Not sure how Ansom would react to that.

VariaVespasa

2007-12-23, 09:34 AM

Nobody said his frontal attack strategy was gonna be casualty-free, and if Stanley is no longer there then his allies may force him to allow the city to stand rather than take the losses of a now-pointless assault. It certainly does seem like there should be a way to wind up with an independant Parson with Gobwin Knob, although the mechanics remain unclear on specifics still.

Kdansky

2007-12-25, 11:08 AM

I wanted to write this long ago, but I forgot:

If your comic has no pictures but only text, is it a good webcomic? I recently found "how to do a good webcomic" article, and one of the things mentioned is: Don't put so much text into the comic that there is no comic anymore, if you do that, you should write a novel.
I really think the same, and therefore I dislike all "klog" pages very much.

Also, the constant cencored swearing gets on my nerves. Boopediboopboop.

(im)prove me wrong! (that was awful)