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Lady Tialait
2007-12-20, 09:19 AM
I am about to start a campaign with no Wiz, Cler, or Sorc, No Bards either. Paladin's will be Variant to not have spellcasting, so will Rangers. Druids will exist, but not as Players.

I was wondering sense someone asked me Should I allow ToB in such a setting? We are also playing with E6 rules What do you think?

kamikasei
2007-12-20, 09:47 AM
It strikes me that E6 will have a bigger effect on the balance of ToB than the presence/absence of wizards, etc.

I wouldn't think it'd be too unbalancing. The largest issue I would forsee is that E6 gives out cheap feats in place of levels, and if ToB's in the game then anyone (not just martial adept classes) could keep taking Martial Study feats to learn new maneuvers. Indeed, a Fighter could learn all the maneuvers available to his initiator level if I'm not mistaken. However, this will just increase versatility, not raw power. I wouldn't expect it to be a huge problem.

How much else outside of core are you allowing?

Amiria
2007-12-20, 09:50 AM
So, you take all kinds of healing magic away from the players ... which makes the game quite deadly. If that's your intention you shouldn't allow Crusaders from ToB because they have some combat healing maneuvers. Or just replace their Devoted Spirit discipline with Iron Heart.

Lady Tialait
2007-12-20, 10:07 AM
My intention is to make a world with no Magic other then that of the Fey and otherworldly.

ToB sometimes feels a little too much like Magic for my taste, one that will be out is Dessert Wind for sure, and the Feat Marial Study can only be taken 3 times according to the feat, so you couldn't just keep takeing it and takeing it.

kamikasei
2007-12-20, 10:21 AM
My intention is to make a world with no Magic other then that of the Fey and otherworldly.

ToB sometimes feels a little too much like Magic for my taste, one that will be out is Dessert Wind for sure, and the Feat Marial Study can only be taken 3 times according to the feat, so you couldn't just keep takeing it and takeing it.

Yeah, Desert Wind and Shadow Blade won't fit too well in such a setting; the rest of the disciplines should be all right, though. You might be able to salvage some of both of those, but it'd probably easier to just nix them, though it somewhat forces Swordsages into the Judo master role if they want to be distinct from Warblades.

You may or may not want to axe Devoted Spirit. My understanding is that it's not technically supernatural in the book but it'll depend on whether you feel a Crusader's Strike healing can be viewed as "a blessing from the gods" or "a surge of morale heartens my allies" without it being too magical (like a Paladin's Smite or Divine Grace, say), or whether in your mind it would have to be "the Crusader channels positive energy while wearing a pointy wizard's hat".

I wouldn't anticipate your average Warblade having any trouble fitting in to such a setting, though.

Lady Tialait
2007-12-20, 10:33 AM
There is the issue of Warblade, Swordsage, and such being clearly stronger then Fighter, Rouge and all...

i'm not going into my other complains but you won't deny they are stronger classes then Fighter.

I am allowing nothing out of the Complete Arcane or Divine, or Spellthief.


Samuri is allowed from CW (Why would anyone play it..but there it is), Ninja from CA (it isn't THAT magical as far as i've seen..atleast not at level 6), and Swashbuckler from CW, and Scout from CA....everything else is too magical for the setting..I'm thinking of saying no the Crusader, as it's clearly more potent then Palidan at what it does. and has a Mystical feel to it i'm trying to get rid of.

Magic Items are gunna be rarities in the setting. the whole thing is sapose to feel Dark Ages Europe..that is the feel i'm going for anywho.

kamikasei
2007-12-20, 11:17 AM
There is the issue of Warblade, Swordsage, and such being clearly stronger then Fighter, Rouge and all...

i'm not going into my other complains but you won't deny they are stronger classes then Fighter.

I am allowing nothing out of the Complete Arcane or Divine, or Spellthief.


Samuri is allowed from CW (Why would anyone play it..but there it is), Ninja from CA (it isn't THAT magical as far as i've seen..atleast not at level 6), and Swashbuckler from CW, and Scout from CA....everything else is too magical for the setting..I'm thinking of saying no the Crusader, as it's clearly more potent then Palidan at what it does. and has a Mystical feel to it i'm trying to get rid of.

Magic Items are gunna be rarities in the setting. the whole thing is sapose to feel Dark Ages Europe..that is the feel i'm going for anywho.

It sounds like this no-magic-or-anything-that-smells-like-magic-or-wears-a-colour-associated-with-magic feel you're aiming for is going to be much more of an issue than balance. Personally I'd say that while a Swordsage may be too mystical for you (though if you're allowing a Ninja...) a Crusader should be able to take his place along the Paladin orders in a low-to-zero-magic world. Certainly I see no reason to exclude Warblades; they'll fit in quite nicely among the Fighters and Barbarians and Rangers.

Lady Tialait
2007-12-20, 11:23 AM
Yeah, Ninja is still being looked at hard, As for Warblade, I'm really thinking it's 'I know how to swing harder then power attack' feel works as a brute kinda shocktroop...and D12 also shows that.

As for Swordsage, it's way to mystical in flavor, I already made monk go poof for it's 'Mind over Matter' flavor, the only god to grand anyone anything is either the Fey, (for Druids..) or The One God (Christianity.)

kamikasei
2007-12-20, 11:26 AM
As for Swordsage, it's way to mystical in flavor, I already made monk go poof for it's 'Mind over Matter' flavor, the only god to grand anyone anything is either the Fey, (for Druids..) or The One God (Christianity.)

Could you explain to me what about a Swordsage limited to Diamond Mind, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw, and Setting Sun (I don't think I've missed anything there) is too mystical in flavour? I don't see why you'd want to axe the class rather than the explicitly supernatural disciplines it has access to, unless of course you feel there's no reason for the class without those disciplines available.

Adumbration
2007-12-20, 11:28 AM
What about races? Is it humans only setting? If not, you should make up some sort of a list of playable races. (There are plenty of races with magical abilities)

Lady Tialait
2007-12-20, 11:36 AM
On the SwordSage, it has close to the same flavor of Monk, so I wanna Axe it.

As for Races, Just humans. the other Races Exist, but are closely attached to Fey.

I don't know If i can get a good reason i'll leave SwordSage, but I already decided no monk...my main consern is will the Marial Adepts outshine the other classes? with no Wizard to show up the Adepts and Fighter still only a fighter. I'm really worried that the Marials will seem wizardly.

kamikasei
2007-12-20, 11:41 AM
On the SwordSage, it has close to the same flavor of Monk, so I wanna Axe it.

Meh, Swordsages always seemed much less silly than Monks, to me. They basically get Wis as a bonus to a few things. That's a lot more coherent than the weird mishmash of abilities a Monk gets.

Without the two supernatural disciplines there's not that much mystical or monk-flavoured about them; they're just more "insightful" than "cunning" warriors compared to the Warblade. If the magical effects that their exclusive disciplines allow are removed, then the "can do magical things with a blade" flavour drops right out of the class.


I don't know If i can get a good reason i'll leave SwordSage, but I already decided no monk...my main consern is will the Marial Adepts outshine the other classes? with no Wizard to show up the Adepts and Fighter still only a fighter. I'm really worried that the Marials will seem wizardly.

I feel confident in stating that they won't show up the other classes, though your players may find them more fun, depending. Especially if you're not going above level six and won't be facing much magic among you enemies, many of the Fighter's worst weaknesses won't come in to play, anyway.

edit: Actually I'm wondering why you're asking this. I mean, you have said in the past that you would rather swallow live porcupines than play or DM ToB, if I may paraphrase. And you're restricting other supplements tremendously. Is there a player looking to use a ToB class, or is it just that you're hard up for useable options with magic so reduced in the setting?

Lady Tialait
2007-12-20, 11:47 AM
Alright, no Shadowblade...or Desert Wind in the Campagin,

Fighter, Rouge, Scout, Nospell-Palidin, Nospells-Ranger, SwordSage, Warblade, Samuri, Swashbuckler, (Any more you can think of?)

Races: Human...period....

Any other Suggestions to help the ToB remove the 'Magical' Feel...any other Disiplines that could be fixed/removed.