Thanh's level

[Albonor]

I wonder, that paladin could not have been more than level 3-4 when the battle took place because he wasn't in the exploding castle. If we suppose he gained a level for the battle an another one or two since then, he cannot be more than level 5-7. Is it really enough, even with a Paladin's charisma score, to turn a wight? Or did he just got lucky on the roll?

On the other hand, he may have reached Azure City after the battle, returning from a mission and be level 8-9+...

[T-O-E]

I hope he's high-level. Thanh just reeks of cool, he has over-taken Hinjo as my favourite paladin.

We do not know how high a leve he was, he was probably on a mission whilst the Azure city war was taking place. Me? I'm hoping he's the second highest Paladin (Miko not included).

[Deuce]

If I'm reading the rules right, he could be anywhere from level 4 to level 10. Lower then 4 and he can't turn undead, starting at level 11, he would have destroyed the Wights (I think they're 4 hd). Unless of course he's some kind of Pally/Cleric multiclass.

[sihnfahl]

If I'm reading the rules right, he could be anywhere from level 4 to level 10. Lower then 4 and he can't turn undead, starting at level 11, he would have destroyed the Wights (I think they're 4 hd). Unless of course he's some kind of Pally/Cleric multiclass.
Yes, they're 4HD. Most likely he's level 7 or 8 - 50% chance of turning or better, without being able to destroy.

If he has a +2 cha bonus, he'd be guaranteed to turn 2 wights at level 7.

[elliott20]

he could also just be a straight cleric who has spent a feat on learning to use a katana.

[sihnfahl]

he could also just be a straight cleric who has spent a feat on learning to use a katana.
And gotten permission by his deity to use his katana as his holy symbol.

Edit: That'd be quite dangerous, wouldn't it? Someone breaks his sword, he no longer has a weapon nor his holy symbol?

[elliott20]

well, he could have just taken a war domain and given himself martial weapon proficiency. He also could have just have his holy symbol concealed in him. Just because a lot of clerics turn with their holy symbol doesn't mean they need to whip it out every time, does it?

[bluish_wolf]

And gotten permission by his deity to use his katana as his holy symbol.

Edit: That'd be quite dangerous, wouldn't it? Someone breaks his sword, he no longer has a weapon nor his holy symbol?

A katana is a warrior's soul, blah blah blah. You know. It's appropriate.

[sihnfahl]

Just because a lot of clerics turn with their holy symbol doesn't mean they need to whip it out every time, does it?
Turning Checks
Turning undead is a supernatural ability that a character can perform as a standard action. It does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

You must present your holy symbol to turn undead.

I'm taking that to be he does have to show his holy symbol to turn undead.

[Fighteer]

He doesn't even have to be a member of the Sapphire Guard - they may have most of the paladins in the Southern lands, but not necessarily all of them.

[elliott20]

Turning Checks
Turning undead is a supernatural ability that a character can perform as a standard action. It does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

You must present your holy symbol to turn undead.

I'm taking that to be he does have to show his holy symbol to turn undead.

ahh, I see. well, that makes sense then.

But then wouldn't it be logical that a paladin would fall under the same restrictions then?

[sihnfahl]

ahh, I see. well, that makes sense then.

But then wouldn't it be logical that a paladin would fall under the same restrictions then?
Hence my comment, above, that he obtained permission from his deity to use his sword as a holy symbol, and the fact that it would be a dangerous thing to do should someone destroy his sword. Out a weapon and a holy symbol in one fell swoop.

[Zurpl]

First post on the forum. WOOOOO! OK now back to business.


Or did he just got lucky on the roll?
...

He probably didn't get lucky on the roll because he proclaims his competence at turning when he tells the wights, "You won't be draining anything today." Which would mean that, assuming he's not some multi-class cleric or something, he'd be a smidgen higher than 4th level.

[BobTheDog]

But wait, he DID destroy one of the wights, didn't he?

Wights 1 & 2 are on him.
He turns.
Wight 2 runs and gets wights 3 & 4.
Wights 2, 3 & 4 are on the remaining scenes.

Right?

[TDG]

Perhaps he returned from an outing after the battle was over, hence his over-zealous need to slay all those that destroyed the city as he wasn't there to defend and thus feels guilty.

That would allow him to be over 3-4 level paladin and explain his absence in the throne room

[Demented]

Or he's had plenty of opportunities to level since the battle.

[elliott20]

well, Belkar just told him to be careful with his smite evil, so I guess that means he is in fact a paladin.

[Moriato]

Hence my comment, above, that he obtained permission from his deity to use his sword as a holy symbol, and the fact that it would be a dangerous thing to do should someone destroy his sword. Out a weapon and a holy symbol in one fell swoop.

It's probably not the sword itself, he probably has it engraved somewhere on the sword. Considering their culture, I'd be surprised if any AC paladin *didn't* have their god's holy symbol engraved on their sword. Even if the sword breaks, the symbol is still there.

[BobTheDog]

It's probably not the sword itself, he probably has it engraved somewhere on the sword. Considering their culture, I'd be surprised if any AC paladin *didn't* have their god's holy symbol engraved on their sword. Even if the sword breaks, the symbol is still there.

Unless it breaks right where the engraving is. :smallbiggrin:

[Iranon]

Perhaps he also invest in the You. Broke. My. Swoard. feat, in which case that would be less of a problem, at least immediately.

[MReav]

Thanh is either one of the newbies stationed at the wall, or one of the paladins that was outside the city when it fell.

[geekyhedgehog]

Or a formerly-not-paladin who thinks of himself as the only remaining Saphire Guard, because he is the only Azurite in the city, and so he took multiple levels of Cleric and/or paladin since.
Or something.

[T-O-E]

Several topics that have been created recently concern Thanh.
I'm worried a new trend might have started...
THANH'S BEEN MIKO/THERKLA-IZED!

[David Argall]

Thanh is likely around 7th for the reasons stated. His Turn argues 4-10 and his slower ability to dispatch the guards argues for a sharply lower level than Haley, but not extremely low since he does defeat guards and wights. He is definitely lower level than Hinjo, and presumably than O-Chul, again making double figures unlikely.

However, note his comments about "debt". This suggests he feels some degree of guilt over his [non?] part in the siege. He may have been outside the city until too late or he may have been on some duty that left him safe from harm. In any case, he may be feeling his actions were not entirely honorable.

[Baron Pineapple]

Remember that Hinjo said that many of the Sapphire Guard were outside the bounds of the city at the time of the attack and the call for many of them to return had been sent out, but it was doubtful enough could make it back to impact the siege. It is entirely likely that Thahn may be in fact around 10th level or higher, and is one of the returned paladins who could not make it back in time to fight in the Throne Room battle.

Here's the break-down for what we have seen of his Turning attempt.

Paladins turn as clerics three levels lower than their paladin levels. Thahn manages to turn at least two wights in #514, possibly destroying one ("Ah the light! It stings in an uncomfortable manner!")

Wights are base HD of 4 HD. This means depending on the Turn check rolled, Thahn's level can be guessed as being either 11th level (on a minimum roll, -4 to effective turning level, -3 modifier for being a paladin) or 4th level (minimum level needed to Turn Undead as a paladin, plus maximum Turn check). We must also take into account that Turning Damage is calculated by 2d6 + Turning Level + Charisma Bonus. If we go with the minimum level of 4th, for an effective Turning Level of 1, plus an assumed Charisma of 16 for a +3, we can see he needs to have rolled a 4+ on 2d6 for a Turn result. That's pretty easy, assuming decent luck. It gets better if we assume he's higher level.

This is assuming he only turns the wights and does not destroy one of the two.

If we assume he destroyed the first Wight and Turned the second, then the numbers change somewhat. He must be double the Turning Level of the HD of the Undead to be Destroyed. Therefore, his minimum Turning Level must be 8th, which would make him an 11th level Paladin by standard rules. There is the small chance that he possesses the feat Disciple of the Sun which would allow him to spend two Turn attempts for a Destroy Result, but given the presentation of Thahn as a direct combat sort of paladin, and the sortage of feat slots for a paladin, I think it unlikely.

It really comes down to whether the reader interprets the first Wight who cries out as being destroyed, since it does not appear to flee back to the others. Had it been turned, it should have fled with it's buddy blowing the whistle. So a case can be made that it was destroyed. This is seemingly backed up by the case of Thahn following the fleeing wight to it's next pair of friends, which would be highly unlikely if he still had an active wight to deal with. However space in a comic being at a premium, it might simply have been left off-panel. (But it still would have been required to flee)

So there you have it, Thahn can range from 4th to 11th level, with current portrayals and the laws of averages implying strongly at this time that he is at the higher end of the scale.

[Zurpl]

Nice explanation. I realize you basically just restated what everyone else had already said, while adding sufficient facts to back up the statements, but it was quite good. Do you do this sort of thing often?

[Baron Pineapple]

Nice explanation. I realize you basically just restated what everyone else had already said, while adding sufficient facts to back up the statements, but it was quite good. Do you do this sort of thing often?

Heh, heh. I guess I do. I've been a long-time DM and so I have gotten into the habit of breaking things down for people to understand how certain mechanics and results happen in-game. (As the players cry out "How the @#$% did that NPC just kill half our party in the surprise round?!")

I find my players get less upset and/or emotionally charged once they realize where all the little pluses and minuses add up to extreme results. Then they become more understanding and realize it's often just the roll of the dice, not a meanie-DM. :-)

[Solara]

I've been assuming that Thanh was one of the newbies on the wall, but that's mainly because I'm under the impression that no one can get in or out of the city at the moment, due to the Cloister spell. If that's the case then that would rule out the paladins that were away at the time of the battle. (though granted there's not much evidence either way at the moment, I'm just going by Belkar's 'trapped in this city' comment and the fact that he and Haley are still there in the first place.)

[SPoD]

I think most people are interpreting the panels incorrectly. A turned undead stays turned for a while (10 rounds). So the turned undead we see running and blowing his whistle does NOT come back with the two reinforcements.

What we have is this:

Panel 7: Turn Undead; one affected (the one speaking and being hit with the light), one unaffected (the one turning and covering his eyes). None were destroyed, because destroyed undead make a "POP!" noise. (See "Redcloak turning the paladin-ghosts in the castle" for an example.)

Panel 8: The turned undead runs off, blowing his whistle. He sees two reinforcement wights, and then keeps running for another 9 rounds, out of the comic.

Panel 9: The two reinforcement wights arrive to Thanh's location, where he is still battling the one wight that wasn't affected. Note that the leftmost wight's feet are not in a walking position, they're in a standing/attacking position.

If Thanh turned one wight and didn't affect a second, he is not very high level at all.

[monty]

If Thanh turned one wight and didn't affect a second, he is not very high level at all.

He could've got really unlucky on his rolls, too.

[Crimson Avenger]

hee hee

Am I the only one who thinks its amusing that we use the placement of stick feet to support an argument.

[Hopeless]

Remember that Hinjo said that many of the Sapphire Guard were outside the bounds of the city at the time of the attack and the call for many of them to return had been sent out, but it was doubtful enough could make it back to impact the siege. It is entirely likely that Thahn may be in fact around 10th level or higher, and is one of the returned paladins who could not make it back in time to fight in the Throne Room battle.

Here's the break-down for what we have seen of his Turning attempt.

Paladins turn as clerics three levels lower than their paladin levels. Thahn manages to turn at least two wights in #514, possibly destroying one ("Ah the light! It stings in an uncomfortable manner!")

Wights are base HD of 4 HD. This means depending on the Turn check rolled, Thahn's level can be guessed as being either 11th level (on a minimum roll, -4 to effective turning level, -3 modifier for being a paladin) or 4th level (minimum level needed to Turn Undead as a paladin, plus maximum Turn check). We must also take into account that Turning Damage is calculated by 2d6 + Turning Level + Charisma Bonus. If we go with the minimum level of 4th, for an effective Turning Level of 1, plus an assumed Charisma of 16 for a +3, we can see he needs to have rolled a 4+ on 2d6 for a Turn result. That's pretty easy, assuming decent luck. It gets better if we assume he's higher level.

This is assuming he only turns the wights and does not destroy one of the two.

If we assume he destroyed the first Wight and Turned the second, then the numbers change somewhat. He must be double the Turning Level of the HD of the Undead to be Destroyed. Therefore, his minimum Turning Level must be 8th, which would make him an 11th level Paladin by standard rules. There is the small chance that he possesses the feat Disciple of the Sun which would allow him to spend two Turn attempts for a Destroy Result, but given the presentation of Thahn as a direct combat sort of paladin, and the sortage of feat slots for a paladin, I think it unlikely.

It really comes down to whether the reader interprets the first Wight who cries out as being destroyed, since it does not appear to flee back to the others. Had it been turned, it should have fled with it's buddy blowing the whistle. So a case can be made that it was destroyed. This is seemingly backed up by the case of Thahn following the fleeing wight to it's next pair of friends, which would be highly unlikely if he still had an active wight to deal with. However space in a comic being at a premium, it might simply have been left off-panel. (But it still would have been required to flee)

So there you have it, Thahn can range from 4th to 11th level, with current portrayals and the laws of averages implying strongly at this time that he is at the higher end of the scale.

Hmm what if he has two levels as a cleric with the domain of Sun and then 4 or 5 levels as a Paladin?
That would give him a base cleric level for turning of 3-5?
The sun domain allows a turning attempt to become destroying effect instead so that would allow for one to be destroyed and the other reacts to this as if it was facing a high level foe... does that sound right to you?

Is there any chance that weapon he's wielding is a Holy Avenger?
Or blessed so it improves his chances of turning undead?

[Hopeless]

I think most people are interpreting the panels incorrectly. A turned undead stays turned for a while (10 rounds). So the turned undead we see running and blowing his whistle does NOT come back with the two reinforcements.

What we have is this:

Panel 7: Turn Undead; one affected (the one speaking and being hit with the light), one unaffected (the one turning and covering his eyes). None were destroyed, because destroyed undead make a "POP!" noise. (See "Redcloak turning the paladin-ghosts in the castle" for an example.)

Panel 8: The turned undead runs off, blowing his whistle. He sees two reinforcement wights, and then keeps running for another 9 rounds, out of the comic.

Panel 9: The two reinforcement wights arrive to Thanh's location, where he is still battling the one wight that wasn't affected. Note that the leftmost wight's feet are not in a walking position, they're in a standing/attacking position.

If Thanh turned one wight and didn't affect a second, he is not very high level at all.

That does sound about right given the alternatives...

[Keld Denar]

There is no "partial destroy" region of turn undead. Unless the undead affected are of varying HD, they will all be affected the same, or not at all. Therefore, one of the wights can't be destroyed, while the other is simply turned. Either they were both turned, both destroyed, both unaffected, or one turned/destroyed and the other unaffected.

If they had different HD (maybe one was advanced?) then it could be possible that the paladin destroyed the lower HD one, but his TL wasn't high enough to destroy the 2nd (since it was advanced), so it was merely turned.

Most likely is what SPoD said, in which one wight was turned, the other was not. This would lead us to believe that Thanh is not very high leveled, probably in the 5-6 level range. Also, he rolled pretty poorly on his 2d6. Unless the wights were both advanced. Oh, the uncertainty!