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Ramos
2007-12-21, 08:39 PM
Sauron the Deceiver
Large Outsider (extraplanar, evil, fire, deity)
HD 50d8+850 (1250 HP)
Speed 80 ft. (12 squares); spirit journey 1 mile (1000 squares)
Init: +12 (5 dex, 7 divine)
AC 100; touch 42; flat-footed 95
(25 natural, 20 deflection, 5 dexterity, 7 divine, 19 armor, 14 shield)
BAB +50; Grp +81
Attack Greatmace +86
(2d12+37+1d6 vile, 15-20/3x + devastating critical DC 55)
Full-Attack Greatmace +86/+86/+81/+76/+71
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks Corruptive Influence, Infernal Touch, Master of Many Forms, Words of Power, Rejuvenation, Spells
Special Qualities DvR 7, Maia traits, DR 40/epic good and mithril, SR 66, Arcane Mastery, Divine Spellcasting, Spontaneous Wizard Spells, Craft Artifact, Dark Lord
Saves Fort +71 Ref +59 Will +64
Abilities Str 50, Dex 20, Con 44, Int 44, Wis 30, Cha 50
Skill Ranks
Feats Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Ring, Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Staff, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Critical
Epic Feats Overwhelming Critical, Devastating Critical, Craft Epic Arms and Armor, Craft Epic Ring, Craft Epic Wondrous Item, Craft Epic Staff, Epic Spellcasting, Epic Skill Focus: Bluff/Spellcraft, Efficient Item Creation
Environment Middle-Earth (Mordor)
Challenge Rating 50
Treasure The Ring of Power, +10 greater fortification large full plate, +10 speed vile heavy greatmace, +10 deflective tower shield
Alignment Lawful Evil

Divine Rank 7:
Sauron has a Divine Rank of 7. He gets a +7 divine bonus to all rolls, checks and saves (factored in the stats above). He doesn't fail on a natural 1 and may take 10 on any defencive d20 roll such as a saving throw or opposed ability check to resist an enemy attack. He is not subject to dispel magic, antimagic and any effect limited to mortal creatures. He gets a +7 divine bonus to his AC and his charisma modifier as deflection bonus to his AC
He has a divine immunity to Ability penalty/damage/drain, Form-Altering attacks, Mind-Affecting effects and any non-physical effects that restrict, forcibly move, imprison or banish him. Such divine immunities may be overcome by immortals of higher divine rank.
He can see, hear and speak directly to and from anywhere within seven miles from his person, including through physical and magical barriers of any sort. A divine shield or other divine defencive powers from deities of at least lesser deity rank and higher may block this effect. Epic illusions and epic concealing powers are not automatically foiled-but in that case Sauron knows something is blocking or manipulating his senses.
He can remotely see and hear to any location in the world. He can remotely observe up to seven such locations at once, each location revealing events within a seven-mile radius. Remote sensing is barred from the domains of any immortals (including demigods) and immortals of lesser deity status or higher may block remote sensing in their location. Remote sensing overcomes barriers just like his divine senses.
He can sense events directly including 1000 people or more anywhere in his domain though he must concentrate his remote sensing to get more than a vague sense of the nature of the events and their location.

Maia traits:
As all Maiar, Sauron is immortal. He does not age, does not need to rest, eat or drink, is never fatigued or exhausted in his true form and is not subject to poisons or diseases, death effects and energy drain. Magical poisons crafted by deities of higher rank may still affect them. He is immune to fire and cold and has resistance 20 against any other energy attacks. He gets his charisma modifier as resistance bonus to saving throws.

Spellcasting:
Sauron casts as a wizard of his HD (caster level 50, caster level checks 57 due to rank bonus). He has access to abjuration, illusion, enchantment, divination and necromancy spells plus artificer infusions.
Arcane Mastery:
Sauron does not need a spellbook to memorise any of his spells. He may invent new spells of his available schools plus new artificer infusions without researching them (assume he knows any and all spells and infusions that exist).
Spontaneous wizard spells:
Sauron can spontaneously cast any spell or infusion that he knows. Because he knows all spells and infusions, he can spontaneously cast any spell in his allowed schools or any infusion.
Divine Spellcasting:
Sauron cast spells whose effective level is above 9th. He also doesn’t incur attacks of opportunity for casting spells when threatened. In addition, he receives the benefit of the Spell Focus feat on any spell he casts. Spell slots by level as follows:
4/10/9/9/9/9/8/8/8/8/3/3/3/3/2/2/2/2, 5 epic slots
Craft Artifact:
Any items crafted by Sauron himself are minor artifacts, not subject to antimagic or dispel magic. He does not need to spend XP points to craft items though he must still spend raw materials and is still limited by the same crafting time. In addition, Sauron has already created a Major artifact: the Ring of Power.

Corruptive Influence:
Sauron can corrupt others through his words and presence. He gets a +17 bonus to his bluff checks in all attempts to sway others into lawful evil actions. In addition, victims Sauron talks to must make a will save DC 5+their ECL. If they fail, they gradually become lawful evil and subservient to Sauron during a period of 100 days, reduced by 5 days for every point they failed the save by. If they'd become lawful evil in less than 50 days, they instead slowly turn insane over a period of 50 days but the manifestations of this insanity are almost always subtle in that the victim still thinks rationally in general but his goals are very much perverted. (e.g. the victim may turn to worshipping the dark powers, commiting blasphemy and hybris, becoming increasingly afraid of the dark to the point of insanity, being filled with bloodlust and enjoying suffering, commiting acts of kinslaying or genocide and so on). This ability slowly corrupts the soul of the victim-it is not a mind affecting attack. Defences from mind-affecting effects are useless-but a Deathward or other defence of the spirit can block it. Soulless or mindless beings are not subject to Corruptive Influence.
Infernal Touch:
In his true form Sauron radiates heat like the heart of a volcano. Most mundane objects touching his bare skin melt instantly or burn away. Flesh is incinerated in moments, scoured to the bone. Any successful touch attack or successful natural attack deals 20d6 fire damage to the creature that touched Sauron, as if it were immersed in magma for a fivecount (1 round). Any successful meele or ranged attack deals 20d6 fire damage to the weapon or projectile that hit Sauron. Fire damage is halved for objects and hardness applies (except for those flammable enough such as wood, paper or cloth). If a weapon is destroyed by Infernal Touch, it deals no damage to the Dark Lord. Creatures touched by the Dark Lord also take the damage. Creatures grappling with the dark lord take maximum damage each round.
Master of Many Forms:
Sauron may assume almost any shape he can imagine from medium to gargantuan. Assuming the shape of creatures gives Sauron their physical shape, mundane methods of movement, natural armor and natural attacks (to a maximum of five). Sauron's other stats remained unchanged-his ability scores or combat stats remain the same despite the change in shape. Alternatively, he may retain his own form but alter his size from medium to gargantuan. Reach and size bonuses/penalties to attack, weapon damage, natural armor, lifting capacity and hide/move silently skills apply. All other stats-inlcuding ability scores-remain the same. Last but not least, Sauron may assume spirit form. In spirit form he's formless, unable to interact with the world at all but he cannot be harmed either. He retains only his social skills (bluff, diplomacy, sense motive) and his ability to speak. He gets a fly speed of 1 mile/round and can move through any barrier as if they did not exist.
Words of Power:
By uttering the Words of Power through which the world was made, Sauron can alter reality to perform any effect of 7th level or lower that doesn't have a material or XP cost.

Rejuvenation:
Sauron is truly immortal. If he is incapacitated or destroyed, assumes spirit form and reforms 6d6 hours later. He cannot be permanently slain though he can be banished. Banishing him from a world right after slaying his physical form results in his eternal banishment from that world unless the banisher dies and any mention of his existence is forgotten by mortals.

puppyavenger
2007-12-21, 08:41 PM
..............................................

What is the point of this?

Lochar
2007-12-21, 08:42 PM
Obviously, to decieve you. :P

Ramos
2007-12-21, 09:50 PM
Err, not really. I mistakenly posted the thread for Sauron the Deceiver before he was ready and had to go back and finish the post.

The post is still not done-he needs bling, the One Ring and tactics-but otherwise he's ready.

jindra34
2007-12-21, 10:06 PM
The CR has to be off on that guy... there is no way he would not crush a fighter in one round.

Ramos
2007-12-21, 10:12 PM
Huh? By a pessimistic estimation, a lvl 50 fighter would have 625 HP with average constitution and a +6 item and inherent bonuses. Sauron does an average of 52 damage per hit. Even if ALL hits land, that's about 300 damage, less than half the fighter's HP.

If you're talking about spells now, Sauron has no damage-dealing spells and if the fighter can't make a DC 40 save by lvl 50, he deserves to be eaten.

jindra34
2007-12-21, 10:16 PM
Huh? By a pessimistic estimation, a lvl 50 fighter would have 625 HP with average constitution and a +6 item and inherent bonuses. Sauron does an average of 52 damage per hit. Even if ALL hits land, that's about 300 damage, less than half the fighter's HP.

If you're talking about spells now, Sauron has no damage-dealing spells and if the fighter can't make a DC 40 save by lvl 50, he deserves to be eaten.

no damage dealing spells...? you do realize how level illusion spells can mimic other spells (including conjuration and evocation) and even on a save do a high percent of the original damage...

Nebo_
2007-12-21, 10:19 PM
He has divine rank, that precludes having a CR.

Ramos
2007-12-21, 10:21 PM
Yeah. But as actual evocation/conjuration/transmutation spells don't really exist in Middle Earth except for infusions that you put them on a focus item, there are no spells for Sauron to mimick.

And what he's gonna mimick anyway? The 36d6 meteor swarm? That's 126 damage-less than half his meele full attack. He doesn't have multispell to pull off 6 spells/round stunts. He CAN invent illusions, enchantments and necromancies of up to 17th level-but no evocations past level 9 and them only mimicked via shadows.



He has divine rank, that precludes having a CR.
Not really-he's only a demigod or lesser deity. Hercules and Achilles were demigods (though much lower level than Sauron) but they still had or could have CR, despite their DvR. Only greater deities are truly invincible.

Rowanomicon
2007-12-21, 11:08 PM
I don't have the time to examine this now, but I will when I have the time.

As far as DvR goes I think the 7-10 range is about right for him (at least based on the way the SRD describes the DvR categories).

When the party is at the point that they are the six greatest warriors and casters in the world at the time they should fight Sauron and the two best (each one being about the equivalent of the other four together) should die.

Sauron should be one freaking tough challenge (if you stat him out at all).

GoC
2007-12-21, 11:29 PM
This is so messed up.
Do you really think that those six heroes who faced him were over level 40?:smalleek:
Did they jump mountains and lift Elephants with one hand?
Do they have blades that fire beams of energy?

Everything I know first hand about Sauron puts him at CR 10-12 but my knowledge is a bit limited (I think LotR uses the E8 system). I stand corrected.
If everything said in the vs. Sauron threads isn't exageration then his CR is probably in the 20-30 range. Which is about right for a quasy-deity.

I think your current interpretation amounts to a severe case of fanboyism!:smalltongue:

Sir_Chivalry
2007-12-21, 11:59 PM
This is so messed up.
Do you really think that those six heroes who faced him were over level 40?:smalleek:
Did they jump mountains and lift Elephants with one hand?
Do they have blades that fire beams of energy?

Everything I know first hand about Sauron puts him at CR 10-12 but my knowledge is a bit limited (I think LotR uses the E8 system).
If everything said in the vs. Sauron threads isn't exageration then his CR is probably in the 20-30 range. Which is about right for a quasy-deity.

I think your current interpretation amounts to a severe case of fanboyism!:smalltongue:

Please, please explain what six heroes fought Sauron and lived.

Beren the ONE-HANDED? One of the greatest warriors of men, and he needed an elf and a warhound to save him form Sauron's might.

The Fellowship? First they are nine people, and second they could never ahve fought Sauron.

Please don't tell me you are talking about the PCs from LOTR: The Third Age. They couldn't have taken Annatar the Fair, ancient servant to both Aule the Smith and Morgoth the Dark enemy in a real fight.

Rowanomicon
2007-12-22, 12:06 AM
All I'll say is that if your knowledge of the character is admittedly limited then I wouldn't expect you to be criticising the interpretations of the people's who's knowledge isn't nearly as limited.

He has worshipers in the tens of thousands (about 100,000), that's what I based my DvR estimation on mostly.

Also those six characters were very powerful. They do not have a level equivalent (though one could guess) because they do not come form a game.

The LotR RPG (not cannon, but still) says that if your characters are facing Sauron directly they have already lost, instead of statting him out.

Oh and the so-simple-I can't-believe-I-had-to-explain-it-to-you moment of the day:
Flashy =/= Powerful.
The short version of the example: A shabby leather hat that grants +1,000,000 to all stats vs a Helm of Brilliance. You can have the flashy one (HoB, in case you couldn't figure that out).

Sir_Chivalry
2007-12-22, 12:13 AM
No, Rowanomicon, I wasn't complaining about interpretation. I think you are right, Sauron should be a tough challenge.

I was contesting GoC's claim that Sauron is at best a CR 7-10

Rowanomicon
2007-12-22, 12:18 AM
I was posting at GoC, sorry, I should have been more clear.

EvilElitest
2007-12-22, 12:45 AM
This is so messed up.

Your responses tend to like that yes.


Do you really think that those six heroes who faced him were over level 40?:smalleek:
they were the greatest heros of their age. Sense LOTRS is NOT a roleplaying game, we must assume them

Did they jump mountains and lift Elephants with one hand?
Nether can normal epic can


Do they have blades that fire beams of energy?

No, they wers just THAT badass


Everything I know first hand about Sauron puts him at CR 10-12 but my knowledge is a bit limited (I think LotR uses the E8 system).
If everything said in the vs. Sauron threads isn't exageration then his CR is probably in the 20-30 range. Which is about right for a quasy-deity.
[QUOTE]
Considering that LOTRS isn't even a gaming system, this whole thread is rather absurd

I think your current interpretation amounts to a severe case of fanboyism!:smalltongue:

Look dude, you don't back up points, you don't base you points off anyting, your points make not senese are are often exaderated and absurd, and you arguments bordorline trolling at times, so don't even think of going there

Sir_Chivalry
2007-12-22, 12:58 AM
I'm sorry, I just get POed when people assume they know about Tolkien after seeing the LOTR movies. Yes they were good films, but Tolkien wrote countless other pieces of work, and many pertain to our favourite overlord of evil.

things you may not have known about Annatar the Fair:

He and the Maiar who would become Saruman of Many Colours were once servants to Aule the Smith, the Valar (read: god) who created the dwarves.

Though he had no part in their creation, and his knowledge was not necessary, the three elven rings (held by Elrond, Galadriel, and Gandalf at the end of the third age) were in some way created with the help of his knowledge, but not his direct help.

He did not create orcs or trolls

The eye is only a symbol, it is not a physical thing

*IMPORTANT*

Sauron has fought many warriors over the ages, including Beren, Arwen's great great grandfather, and Aragorn's ancestor (that's right kids, they're related) and he has never been killed or defeated by the hand of man, with one exception.

He had died on the island of Numenor, when the island was removed from the face of reality itself be sinking it into the sea, caused by the corruption he planted. (that's right, he made Aragorn's race, the numenoreans, the purist of men, FALL)

Isildur killed him with a lucky swing from a dwarven crafted sword, and even this legendary weapon shattered against his skin.

<End Rant>

I'm sorry, but really, when did he become somethign for people to beat as they went up the level ladder?

Demented
2007-12-22, 02:09 AM
That stat block looks to you like something that's just supposed to be beaten as you crawl up the level ladder?

Ramos
2007-12-22, 02:14 AM
Just in case people forget: in the great battle of Dargorland, Gil-Galad and his group, the seven greatest warriors of the time, charged ahead into the ranks of Sauron's army when their own army was outnumbered greatly and were winning the day, forcing Sauron to face them. Sauron's army at the time was much bigger than in LotR. And to get an idea of sizes, the army at Minas Tirith was only a small part of Sauron's army and they still were 100.000 troops. Yeah, ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND.


Do you really think that those six heroes who faced him were over level 40?
So, in the battle of Dagorland, the six people that fought Sauron made a huge difference in a battle with HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of troops from goblins to giants. Yeah, there were just a bit over level 10. As in four times as much. Six people at a level range of 30-40+ could challenge Sauron and, with a really lucky blow, defeat him.



Did they jump mountains and lift Elephants with one hand?
No, but they fought several thousand enemies at once and killed anyone with one blow-including werewolves and giants.


Do they have blades that fire beams of energy?
Dunno. But their weapons could harm a demigod even when they were broken and the majority of their magic diminished. Gandalf's sword Glamdring does not even compaire to Ainglos and Narsil in power-and it STILL shatters the Balrog's huge flaming sword with one blow and can cut through iron bolts as if they were butter.

Sir_Chivalry
2007-12-22, 08:59 AM
That stat block looks to you like something that's just supposed to be beaten as you crawl up the level ladder?

Yes, anything with stats is meant to be beaten by PCs.

I have a question, what is the obsession with beating up gods and godlings?

Not even Gil-galad, king of the elves, survived long directly against Sauron. I'll admit he was impressive, but Sauron is a Maiar with no restrictions.

It takes a powerful elf warrior or a restricted Maiar complete suicide to take down a Balrog, and they are fairly minor Maiar. Does anyone on Middle-Earth really stand a chance against Sauron?

GoC
2007-12-22, 10:42 AM
Please, please explain what six heroes fought Sauron and lived.

Not all of them lived but according to vs. Sauron posters six of the greatest heroes faced Sauron and slew him (though most of them died). Isaldor (spelling?) survived.


they were the greatest heros of their age. Sense LOTRS is NOT a roleplaying game, we must assume them

Nether can normal epic can
That was an exageration used to make a point but yes a level 40 CAN lift a baby elephant with one hand with his 40-60 Str (depending on optimization).:smalltongue:
Some examples of what an epic skill check that someone at that level can do:
DC 60 balance: walk on a hair suspended in mid air.
DC 60 diplomacy:make someone actvely attacking you suddenly turn round, apologise and aid you on your quest
DC 60 jump:Jump 60 feet or jump over a 19ft high wall
DC 40 spot:to see an invsible object
DC 60 tumble:jump off the roof of a four story building and not take damage.

>121hp(40lvl wizard with 12 con):jump off a flying plane onto a concrete floor and walk away every time
>400hp (common hp for a lvl 40 fighter):You are more resistant to injury than a 1 foot thick steel wall or a 4 foot thick stone wall
can swim in lava for half a minute without any protection against fire
Can lay down on the executioners block and an ordinary warrior wth a masterwork greataxe attempting to execute you would need nine prefectly aimed blows
Is 100 times more durable than the average warrior


No, but they fought several thousand enemies at once and killed anyone with one blow-including werewolves and giants.
Any lvl20 fighter can do that.
a lvl20 fighter is just as good at killing ordinary soldiers as a 40th level fighter. They both kill with one blow every time and are only limited by how fast they can move in how many they kill.

Good point about the swords. Sauron's definitely not under CR 18.
I like your BBEG but I'm just not sure it's Sauron.

Sir_Chivalry: I'm not quite that ignorant.:smalltongue:

Rowanomicon: Indeed. Unfortunatly you don't always get a Divine Rank over 0 just because you have lots of worshipers. Yes, Sauron does have a DvR but why should it be over 0?


Look dude, you don't back up points, you don't base you points off anyting, your points make not senese are are often exaderated and absurd, and you arguments bordorline trolling at times, so don't even think of going there
You're taking this waaaaay too seriously.
Anyway I just have to raise objections not prove Ramos wrong. He's the one who has to prove that Sauron is CR 50 as the Burden of Proof rests on him.
Exageration is how we make points in my culture. It's amazing the misunderstandings that can result when two very different cultures collide.
I'll try and stop if it's bothering you but no promises...

Sir_Chivalry
2007-12-22, 12:14 PM
No, Ramos has made his opinon known.

The onus is on anyone who contests to prove it false.

GoC
2007-12-22, 12:56 PM
No, Ramos has made his opinon known.

The onus is on anyone who contests to prove it false.
It is the obligation of the person proposing the theory to prove it.


In science, the burden of proof rests on those making a claim, not on the critic

EDIT:
Ok, I've been very unhelpful with all my negative critiscism so here's some (hopefuly) constructive critiscism:
Change HD to 30. This causes SR to go to 46, DR to 30, 3 epic slots, CL to 30 and CR to 30
Change ability scores to Str 40, Dex 20, Con 32, Int 22, Wis 20, Cha 40
Make his greatmace +6, make his full plate and tower shield +6 too.
Change DvR to 1 (LotR divinity probably works differently to D&D divinity in that they only have three divine levels (Maiar, Valar and Eru)
Change divine spellcasting to limit it to 13th level spells
Change Infernal touch to 10d6 so that archers aren't useless
give Words of Power a per encounter limit (like 2-3), increase the spell limit to 9th and make it not be able to replicate Evocation and conjuration except conjuration(creation)

Everything else looks fine and flavourful.

Ramos
2007-12-23, 07:20 AM
DC 60 diplomacy:make someone actvely attacking you suddenly turn round, apologise and aid you on your quest.
Sauron does this all the time, even with epic or immortal characters. Luthien-who is half mortal-convinces Morgoth himself not to slay her outright and then puts him to sleep with a perform check. Saruman has been known to control anyone save Galandriel, Elrond and other Maiar by speaking to them. When his powers diminished, he tried that on Theoden, the kind he had enslaved, forcibly aged and whose country he ravaged for decades. Theoden barely managed to escape being entrapped by a weakened Saruman's fast-talking and all the others (except Gandalf) were convinced even though Saruman was not speaking to them directly. And that was with a weakened Maia that tried to kill them all several times and whose tower they were besieging at the time.


DC 60 jump:Jump 60 feet or jump over a 19ft high wall.
Read the Silmarillion. Plenty of bigger jumps there-especially the elf dude who fought Morgoth that was jumping around to avoid a hammer the size of Texas.


DC 40 spot:to see an invsible object
Meh. Gandalf can do that. Tom Bombadil too.


DC 60 tumble:jump off the roof of a four story building and not take damage.
Gandalf dropped 6000 ft into Moria.


>121hp(40lvl wizard with 12 con):jump off a flying plane onto a concrete floor and walk away every time.
Gandalf dropped 6000 ft into Moria.


>400hp (common hp for a lvl 40 fighter):You are more resistant to injury than a 1 foot thick steel wall or a 4 foot thick stone wall.
Gandalf traded blows and lightning bolts for three days with the Balrog before one of them died. That's ALOT more than 400 HP


Can swim in lava for half a minute without any protection against fire.
Gandalf grappled with the Balrog all the way down to Moria and all the way up. That's a great deal more than half a minute.


Can lay down on the executioners block and an ordinary warrior wth a masterwork greataxe attempting to execute you would need nine prefectly aimed blows.
Nope. Coup-de-grace is auto-critical. Also doing max damage, that's about 40 damage. You need to make a DC 50 fortitude save or die. Without ALOT of magical protection, the 50th level warrior with the +27 fort save dies 90% of the time.


Is 100 times more durable than the average warrior.
If I take a punch from a heavyweight boxer, I'm toast. In an average 5-round fight, each boxer takes hundreds of punches.

Istari
2007-12-23, 10:04 AM
Corupting Infulence probably shouldn't take that long or have the ring shorten the time necessary.

GoC
2007-12-23, 12:06 PM
Ramos: All very good points.
There's no way I can read the Silmarillion as there are very few libraries (as in two in the entire city) here (both in universities) and none stock non-spanish fantasy books.


If I take a punch from a heavyweight boxer, I'm toast. In an average 5-round fight, each boxer takes hundreds of punches.

I think boxers have DR/lethal damage as they can't take 100 blows with a sword.

Thank you for completely destroying the image I had of Tolkien's world.:smallannoyed: