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View Full Version : Warblade Kinda Grapple Build



Behold_the_Void
2007-12-22, 04:42 AM
I have this concept for a character that I really want to play someday, and will do so if ever I get the opportunity. One thing I'm curious about, however, is the mechanics and if it's possible.

Anyway, the basic concept is the guy wears pretty heavy armor (likely Mithral Fullplate if I can wing it, or even dropping a feat to pick up the appropriate armor proficiency, though I would be loathe to do so if I didn't have to. 2-level fighter dip is also an option, as I imagine this build will be a bit feat-starved) and carries an impressively large greatsword on his back. He's pretty noble, albeit somewhat arrogant (with a personality somewhat based off the manliest character ever (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Tengen_Toppa_Gurren_Lagann_primary_charact ers#Kamina)). His major identifying feature, however, is that when he engages in combat, he doesn't draw his weapon. He just wades into the fray and starts busting heads with his bare hands. The idea is for him to be pretty proficient at grapple (his full BAB and Improved Grapple will help, but if there's another way to get more bonuses it'd be nice) and, of course, have the general power attack feat chain of doom, which is not only strong, but thematically appropriate for how he fights (kicking reason to the curb and penetrating the enemies with his sword). I know some Stone Dragon maneuvers and stances are also nice in a grapple, but I haven't had a chance to go over it in detail, and I note that overall there aren't as many that help as one would prefer. Also, I have pictures of this guy getting charged down by a Dragon or some other massive beastie, stopping it with his hands, and slamming it into the ground with a cocky comment.

So build-wise, I'm interested in how it'd work. Assume stats to be focused on strength and constitution, lower dex and reasonable int. If anyone has some build suggestions, I'd love to hear 'em. As detailed or vague as you want, I'm just interested in seeing how well this character can be made.

Armads
2007-12-22, 09:55 AM
Grappling's rather weak, since monsters tend to be bigger than you and Freedom of Movement renders stuff immune to grapples. But the problem is getting the greatsword to work in a grapple. If you had a bite attack, you could get a mouthpick greatsword, and there would be no problem. But a mouthpick weapon's funny looking (the greatsword's melded with your teeth?), and doesn't make sense.

Other possibilities are the Last Resort weapon enchantment, which removes the -4 penalty for attacking in a grapple with a light weapon. But you still need to get a light weapon. Maybe goliath wielding a small greatsword will work?

Thyatira3902
2007-12-22, 10:49 AM
i'm pretty sure there's a wolverine stance or something like it which lets you use any weapon in grapple. yeah, it's a tiger claw maneuver, but by the sounds of it it's only if you're being grappled and on the defense. i guess if you can get something to keep on grappling you you could use it though, but that's unlikely. with other grappling things with the warblade, the best idea might be to use light weapons in grapple and try and get bonuses from those. tigerclaw has a bunch of good ones for increases. good luck

TempusCCK
2007-12-22, 03:57 PM
There's some kind grappler PrC in Complete Warrior I think, a little homebrewing would make it perfect for what you're talking about. Certain abilities from the PrC let you grapple enemies of larger size than you.

Also, you might consider a half giant for the opportunity to be treated as a Large-sized creature but actually being medium.

Behold_the_Void
2007-12-22, 04:09 PM
The Greatsword is what he uses when people aren't being killed by ferocious face-punching. I know there's a stance that lets him attack with it in grapple.

I saw the Complete Warrior Grapple Prestige Class, but I was a bit underwhelmed by its abilities (or lack thereof).

Amiria
2007-12-22, 04:25 PM
Wolverine Stance only works with one-handed weapons, so no greatsword in a grapple. EWP bastard Sword can work around this but the weapon isn't worth a feat. Or maybe wield a longsword mainly two-handed, but one-handed in a grapple.

Wielding longswords two-handed doesn't look silly. Just look at Conan in the movies (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2gcpFU-78k), the Atlantean Sword looks like a longsword/broadsword.

TempusCCK
2007-12-22, 04:26 PM
Indeed, but I believed it allowed some sort of grappling for larger sizes., which is always useful.. Like I said, perhaps a bit of homebrew is required.

Behold_the_Void
2007-12-22, 05:25 PM
I'm not so much concerned if I can't grapple and use my greatsword. The grappling is one form of combat, the greatsword is his actual, "now I mean business" fighting style.

But yeah, it looks like there may need to be some homebrew involved in order to get any kind of decent grapple.

NEO|Phyte
2007-12-22, 06:02 PM
Weapon Supremacy could get you the use of the greatsword in a grapple, IIRC. It'll take a bunch of feats though, and you'll have to splash some fighter at 20th level to be able to get it pre-Epic. On the plus side, you can swap the feats over to your unarmed strike if you don't plan on pulling out the beatstick that day, yay for Weapon Aptitude.

Admiral Squish
2007-12-22, 06:09 PM
If you do homebrew to get a decent grapple, be sure to put it up! I have a warforged fighter who became a monk and is now focusing on a grappling/nonlethal style of combat, and aforementioned hmebrews would be quite useful.

Wordmiser
2007-12-22, 06:09 PM
Is Swordsage out? The Unarmed Adaption combined with a couple Fighter levels seems like it would be more than appropriate. Setting Sun access doesn't hurt either.

Behold_the_Void
2007-12-22, 06:10 PM
I've actually tried making a Warblade Weapon Supremacy build. You can get the entire chain of feats, yes, but then you don't have any feats left for things you need, like, say, Power Attack, or Improved Unarmed Strike. I'd considered doing it, but ended up discarding the idea entirely as it doesn't seem worthwhile.

Roderick_BR
2007-12-22, 07:40 PM
You could use the Superior Unarmed Damage for better damage in a grapple. Besides Improved Grapple, there's Clever Wrestling and Close Quarters Combat, when you need to avoid entering a grapple.
The prestige class Reaping Mauler is a grappler class made specially to grapple.
You can try being a goliath or half-ogre, or as a human, get the Jotumbrug(or something) feat from Forgotten Realms, that makes you count as a large sized when making bullrushes and grapples.
Ask your DM if he allows you to create a feat similar to Clever Wrestling, but granting bonuses to start/maintain grapples.

Thyatira3902
2007-12-22, 07:46 PM
in terms of ferocious face punching, my favorite combo for it is getting a lvl in monk to turn your hands into natural weapons and then take 2 potions of greater magic fang +5 and then have them permanancy-ed. while it's quite cheezy, it's nice to be able to attack at a constant +5 on atk and dmg rolls.

with grappler builds, using armor spikes is a great idea, and taking feats like earth's embrace and scorpion's grasp are also good. earth gives you +1d12 damage every round you maintain a pin. scorpion allows you to immediately initiate a grapple when you hit someone with a onehanded or light weapon. so if you're going bastard sword one handed, when you hit them you can drop the sword and immediately start a grapple without an AoO.

clever wrestling (the feat) and the reaping mauler (the PrC from complete warrior) are both pretty alright. i've grappled hydra with those two together. But the reaping mauler abilities are based on wis, not int, like the warblade which poses a problem.

I think a buddy of mine once made a sorcerer/monk or something like that which would grapple and then use still spell to cast in grapple. interesting concept. little hard to pull off sometimes.

anyway, hope that helped.

Drider
2007-12-22, 07:48 PM
Indeed, but I believed it allowed some sort of grappling for larger sizes., which is always useful.. Like I said, perhaps a bit of homebrew is required.

you can grapple larger sizes, but largeer sizes have higher bonuses.

Thyatira3902
2007-12-22, 08:10 PM
right, this just reduces the advantage it has. while you aren't going to be able to grapple with purple worms or whatever, you're going to have a better chance at grappling with say... a minotaur, or even a hill giant. and being able to attack them when they aren't able to use their primary weapons is invaluable. once you get them into grapple, they have little if any attacking ability.

tyckspoon
2007-12-22, 08:23 PM
you can grapple larger sizes, but largeer sizes have higher bonuses.

You can't score a hold against an opponent two or more size categories larger than yourself. They can grapple you, but you can't initiate the grapple against them because you will auto-fail step 3 (the opposed grapple check to make a hold.) One size increase or effective size increase such as from Powerful Build will let a Medium creature initiate grapples of creatures up to Huge size, which is usually everything you're going to want to grapple. Gargantuan and Colossal beings typically have overwhelmingly high grapple checks.

The Wolverine Stance doesn't make you count as larger; it lets you use larger weapons with the 'attack your opponent' grapple option and removes the hit penalty. It also gives you a damage bonus against a larger opponent who is grappling you when you attack him; it doesn't do anything to help with grapple checks or crushing people with wrestling.

For damage in a grapple: The 3rd level Stone Dragon stance 'Crushing Weight of the Mountain' gives a constrict attack for 2d6 + 1.5x Strength bonus. Combine with armor spikes (at least, I think they work this way..) for a 3d6 'two handed' attack. It'd be nice if you could also find a way to get the Improved Grab special attack; the Scorpion's Grasp feat is the closest thing I've seen so far.

Fax Celestis
2007-12-22, 08:53 PM
It'd be nice if you could also find a way to get the Improved Grab special attack; the Scorpion's Grasp feat is the closest thing I've seen so far.

I could have sworn there was a chakra bind from MoI that gave you the Improved Grab ability, but damn if I can find it now. However, Kraken Mantle and Girallon Arms are both good to look at: Girallon Arms gives 2+2/1 essentia to grapple checks, while Kraken Mantle gives +4/1 essentia but needs to be bound.

Armads
2007-12-22, 09:12 PM
I could have sworn there was a chakra bind from MoI that gave you the Improved Grab ability, but damn if I can find it now. However, Kraken Mantle and Girallon Arms are both good to look at: Girallon Arms gives 2+2/1 essentia to grapple checks, while Kraken Mantle gives +4/1 essentia but needs to be bound.

None of them do, but bound (to the owlbear), Totem Avatar gives Improved Grapple as a bonus feat.