A small question.

[PhallicWarrior]

Can someone please explain why the wizard is considered to be so much better than the sorceror? At first I thought it was the bonus feats, but isn't the fact that feats are no substitute for spells the reason fighters are weaker than spellcasters?

[Azerian Kelimon]

Two reasons:

1) Get spells one level later.

2) Most importantly, you can't change them to suit your situation at whim. This destroys a great part of a spellcaster's power, being ready to handle many different situations.

[Prophaniti]

Of course, being a(n effective) wizard involves a great deal of time and planning. Most gamers don't put that much effort into it, so sorcerer is a better choice. Less maintanence, less record-keeping. But, you pay for that with versatility, since you're limited to only knowing a small number of spells. I prefer the sorcerer personally for the mentioned reasons, but at least in theory a wizard is more powerful. My DM seems to think sorcerers are more powerful because that's all we ever play, so he nerfs them further, making us roll to determine what schools our spells come from when we learn new ones. This was talking him up from making us roll for the spells themselves, we get to pick within a random school.

I actually think the two classes are very redundant and should be combined, but hey. They don't ask my opinion, do they?

[Solo]

Two reasons:

1) Get spells one level later.

2) Most importantly, you can't change them to suit your situation at whim. This destroys a great part of a spellcaster's power, being ready to handle many different situations.

Partial rebuttal:

1) MotAO increases your flexibility somewhat.
2) As do scrolls.
3) Limited Wish Duplicates Psychic Reformation, so you can retool all you want as long as you are willing to burn XP.

[Admiral Squish]

Well, with a sorcerer you can change your known powers to meet the demands of a predicted encounter. Every even level past fourth, you can mix up your spell selections. And on top of that, you can cast any spell you know, rather than needing that buffer of study time wizards do. If you pick them well, in the first place, you shouldn't need that much leeway.

[cupkeyk]

more:

3. Free Scribe scroll feat. The wizard need not memorize utility spells, just carry a few of them in his scrollcase, freeing up his spell slots.

4. Wizards have Int as their prime requisite ability, sorcs have charisma, both get 2+int modifier skill points per level BUT each have an equal amount of skill sinks (Concentration, Spellcraft, Knowledge Arcana, Craft Calligraphy (for create magic tattoo)... for many people listen, Balance, Escape Artist, jump and Tumble until 5 ranks each). The wizard will have more skills to spend each level because of his high int.

[Solo]

Just a though:

With a sorcerer, you can change the power level of your spells you cast more easily.

With a wizard, you can change the spells you know more easily.

[Brom]

I actually find that Wizardly metamagic is a big deal, as it maintains lower-level spell relevancies, whereareas a Sorcerer is basically casting spells from his two highest levels all the time and can't go much lower than that and expect effectiveness. In games where the DM strives to present myriad challenges, from enviromental ((chasm, you need Spider Climb)) to monsters ((MAGIC MISSILE!)) to negotiation ((I need a Charm spell...)) to spying ((Arcane Eye/Scrying/Clairvoyance/Invisibility)) to racing against time ((Mount spell, a low level Sorc spell most Sorc's won't pick))...

The DM is a limitless amorphous source of trouble and annoyance for a party. I would say though, if you have two or more sorcerers in the party, go ahead and skimp having a Wizard. As long as the Sorcerers don't pick overlapping spells, you'll likely be able to cover all your bases. Still, even in a fast moving game, if the DM is keen on providing multiple types of encounters, if you can make even a GUESS as to what spells you'll need and prepare for it...

A properly prepared Wizard > all. I have had games where I have had no clue what was ahead where my Wizard had no choice but to lay on Abjurations ((he's an Abjurer)) and hope for the best, and then I've had games where we knew what was happening going in. I never needed those Abjurations the second time we fought that Orc Cleric/Necromancer dude -- He didn't stand a chance. Why? I'd gone from my standard who knows whats next repitiore of defensive spells to a mix of damage and accuracy magics -- True Strike & Scorching Ray, anyone? The guy was dead once it became my turn. Because I was PREPARED.

I'm writing this as I go along, so sorry for thought mis-organization.

[cupkeyk]

Partial rebuttal:

1) MotAO increases your flexibility somewhat.
2) As do scrolls.
3) Limited Wish Duplicates Psychic Reformation, so you can retool all you want as long as you are willing to burn XP.

1. Not applicable for levels 1-5 (MotAO has gross feat prereqs anyway). this assumes all sorcs should go moTAO, which is actually easier for wizards to qualify for anyway.

2. Wizards are still better at scrolls since they can write them themselves instead of purchasing them and have an entire spellbook to copy it from, unlike the sorc with scribe scroll/craft wand, who is only expanding his uses of the same few spells, not his repertoire.

3. Not applicable until level 13. What book is Psychic Reformation in? What I think the spell that would be most appropriate is Spell Engine.


Just a though:

With a sorcerer, you can change the power level of your spells you cast more easily.

With a wizard, you can change the spells you know more easily.


How is a Sorc capable of changing the power level of their spells? Did they get the Augment option of Psions by using higher spell slots? Do you mean metamagic feats?

[Solo]

1. Not applicable for levels 1-5 (MotAO has gross feat prereqs anyway). this assumes all sorcs should go moTAO, which is actually easier for wizards to qualify for anyway.

2. Wizards are still better at scrolls since they can write them themselves instead of purchasing them and have an entire spellbook to copy it from, unlike the sorc with scribe scroll/craft wand, who is only expanding his uses of the same few spells, not his repertoire.

3. Not applicable until level 13. What book is Psychic Reformation in? What I think the spell that would be most appropriate is Spell Engine.
I said partial rebuttal. Take note of the fact.

1. MotAO is good for sorcerers above level 1-5, and it gives two free metamagic feats to make up for the ones you have to burn for it.

2. True, but as I said, scrolls do help.

3. Psychic Reformation is from the XPH. Provided you have the XP, it's very good. You spend XP to retool with better spells, then use those spells to kill things, getting you more XP which you can use to continue the cycle.






How is a Sorc capable of changing the power level of their spells? Did they get the Augment option of Psions by using higher spell slots? Do you mean metamagic feats?

It's slightly easier for a sorcerer (especially a PHBII varient Metamagic Specialist) to put Metamagic on his spells "on the fly", rather than having to apply metamagic beforehand.

[cupkeyk]

but then the topic of the thread is how wizards are so much better than sorcs. Making them at least at par with, given a few things here and there, only proves that wizards are better than sorcs.

[graymachine]

Well, wizards are simply better. Casting at a higher spell level offsets the increased number of Spells per day a Sorcerer has. Assuming a wizard keeps the bonus feats from Wizard he is always going to have more metamagic potential than the Sorcerer. Furthermore, the variant rules for wizards, especially Specialists, are far more robust than those for Sorcerer. Also, wizards almost always qualify for magic PrCs far quicker than a Sorcerer (picking up spell levels quicker aside, a wizard is going to have more skill points), which means, assuming they take a PrC with continued casting, they are always going to be more powerful than a Sorcerer focusing in the same field.

For Example: We have a 5th level Sorcerer and a 5th level Conjurer. The Conjurer has taking the Rapid Summoning variant to replace his familiar and has the Augment Summoning feat. If the Sorcerer wins the init then he casts Scorching Ray (his best attack spell at this level). Assuming the Sorcerer hits on both rays, there is a good chance that the wizard won't be killed. On the wizards turn he casts Summon Undead III as a standard action, targeting the square next to the Sorcerer. The freshly summoned Ogre Zombie gives the Sorcerer hugs until his head pops off while the wizard keeps summoning more of them to make sure. If the wizard wins init then he goes invisibly and keeps summoning zombies that want hugs until the situation is taken care of. While obviously not foolproof, this is just an example I thought off of the hip.

[dentrag2]

I personnally preffer wizards, because as far as i know (In my limited experience as playing as a PC) they tend to get more spells, and Metamagic feats.

[Emperor Demonking]

Intelligence is better than charisma.
A wizard doesn't need the extra spells.
If they can prepare they can do whatever is needed.

[dr awesome phd]

In the Sorceror's defense, you could just bring along one or two of the 'Runestaves' from the MIC. They'd be able to hot-swap spells on the fly. (Runestaff of Power, FTW).