How many 6th level characters?

[GoC]

Ok the previous challenge was too easy. I obviously need something that flies so...

How many level 6 characters does it take to defeat an adult black dragon?

Same rules:
1) Cage match is in a cylinder 1000ft tall with 2000ft radius.
2) The dragon and your group start 2000ft from eachother and 1000ft from the center of the arena.
3) No custom items or items with CL requirements over 8.
4) Only Core, Complete and Spell Compedium.
5) And no you can't bring in 400 Allips.
6) Or Pun-Pun.
7) Or antimatter!

Maybe this time there won't be any simple one character solutions ya munchkins!:smallwink:

EDIT: Just remembered, I'm not sure if Shivering touch is 4th level but just in case: it's off limits.

[Ganurath]

It seems that Black Dragons do not invest ranks in Sense Motive. I present a Warlock with 15 starting Cha, +1 from level, and +2 from Cloak of Charisma for 18 Cha, +4 modifier. Add 9 ranks of UMD to that, the Spellcraft synergy bonus, and +2 from Magical Aptitude, and you have the 17 modifier needed to Deceive Item on a scroll of Glibness. That's +30 to the normal +13 Bluff modifer from ranks and Cha, but let's add on Beguiling Influence for good measure. With a +45 Bluff modifier and a dragon devoid of suspicion thanks to the False Theurgy skill trick from Complete Scoundrel, it's no task to convince the dragon that there's a powerful arbiter orchestrating this battle, and an ill fate awaits the victor. It's in the dragon's best interest that he conceed the match, and the warlock won't do so because he has knowledge of the lower planes' dark secrets that may buy his survival and freedom.

Edit: There shouldn't be too bad of a believability penalty, given the enviroment.

[GoC]

Well at least you didn't use diplomacy...

[UglyPanda]

You still have to win initiative. Otherwise *chomp*.

*Edit* Though it's easily reconciled by having two or three of the same character in a formation where they're far enough apart so that all of them can't be killed on the same turn.

[Armads]

The dragon can't kill a 6th level warlock in 1 round, can it? Besides, they probably won't start next to each other, since the arena is so big.

[GoC]

The dragon can't kill a 6th level warlock in 1 round, can it? Besides, they probably won't start next to each other, since the arena is so big.

Probably and yes.
I'm not sure if Bluff is valid in combat...
Any other solutions? Preferably involving more than one PC.

[Ganurath]

Well, it's same rules which means the 1 minute prep time. Last I checked, a Bluff check to lie wasn't engaging combat, so couldn't it be done during the initial prep time?

If not, Improved Initiate and Complete Scoundrel's Lucky start gives us a favorable chance of winning initiative, especially if the Warlock has a halfling's dexterity bonus and gloves of dexterity.

Or, for really cheesy, you can lie as an immediate action before the dragon acts if it wins initiative. No time for talking, right?

Edit: Ah, you want a proper epic throwdown. I could probably throw something together, then.

[Archangel Yuki]

6th level druid with A wand of invisibility, 6 potions of fly, Bison animal compainion.

Invisible, use potion on me and Bison buddy, fly 360ft above the dragon. Keep following him at about this speed. Around when the fly spell wears off, wildshape into a bison. Weight is 2400 lbs, as stated in monster manual. I deal 12d6 falling damage from weight and an additional 1d6 per 10 feet; at 200 ft falling, thats 32d6 each for both me and my animal companion. If I feel like it, use natural spell to summon dire wolves via summon natures ally 3 for additional 24d6 damage each. Next potion. I can continue doing this all day.

So 64d6 for me and my animal companion. Average 224 damage. My wolves average 84 damage each.

So...yeah.

EDIT: Bison has 5HD. I can do it at 5th level.

[UglyPanda]

Wait, don't you take falling damage as well? You can still do damage, but not with your own body. Also, dealing damage ends your invisibility.

Edit: De-trick, that's the spell mentioned in the first post.

Edit 2: For the purposes of this challenge, do any of the level 6 characters even have to survive? Do we only need one survivor or a certain percentage of survivors or what? Suicide tactics seem to work fairly well.

[de-trick]

forget the spell name but the same spell ray of enfeeblement but dex damage 2 hits of it should get its dex to 1, From there i need a plan to make it lose 1 dex point

edit I think its ray of clumsiness

[Felius]

Archangel, the dragon can fly and you take this damage as well. But you get the prize for most imaginative tactic.

[Chronicled]

Archangel, the dragon can fly and you take this damage as well. But you get the prize for most imaginative tactic.

Imaginative? People do this all the time. Ideally, instead of dropping yourself, you turn a bag of holding inside out to drop a giant block of lead. Or 50 front-weighted +1 greatswords.

[Armads]

6th level druid with A wand of invisibility, 6 potions of fly, Bison animal compainion.

Invisible, use potion on me and Bison buddy, fly 360ft above the dragon. Keep following him at about this speed. Around when the fly spell wears off, wildshape into a bison. Weight is 2400 lbs, as stated in monster manual. I deal 12d6 falling damage from weight and an additional 1d6 per 10 feet; at 200 ft falling, thats 32d6 each for both me and my animal companion. If I feel like it, use natural spell to summon dire wolves via summon natures ally 3 for additional 24d6 damage each. Next potion. I can continue doing this all day.

So 64d6 for me and my animal companion. Average 224 damage. My wolves average 84 damage each.

So...yeah.

EDIT: Bison has 5HD. I can do it at 5th level.

You can't wildshape into a bison until you reach level 8, where you get Wild Shape (large)

[Archangel Yuki]

Archangel, the dragon can fly and you take this damage as well. But you get the prize for most imaginative tactic.

Meh. I try.
I might actually make a druid to fight this thing later.

[NEO|Phyte]

The fly/fall trick won't work, when the fly runs out, you get a free feather fall for 1d6 rounds. Unless your dragon is stationary, odds are you aren't gonna manage to fall on it.

[Ganurath]

Adult Back Dragon’s Armor Class: 27
Level 6 Ranger’s Base Attack Bonus: +6/+1 (21/26)
Favored Enemy Bonus Against Dragons: +4 (17/22)
15 Dexterity +2 Elf +1 Level: +4 (13/18)
+1 Dragonbane Composite Longbow: +3 (10/15)
Champion of the Wild variant (Complete Champion) allows for 4th level Far Shot and 6th level Improved Rapid Shot (10/10/15)
Dragon moves in on the elf at double move fly, giving him little room to work with as far as firing goes. The dragon will no doubt be laughing hysterically as it moves in to snatch its seemingly helpless prey before the dragon gets close enough for the elf to stun him for 5d4 rounds with Dust of Sneezing and Choking. Odds are the dragon will favor the melee, too, since the elf favors combat at a distance. In any case, the elf will be making roughly 50% of his shots against the stunned opponent, and will probably have brought enough ammunition. With 10 shots at 60% chance success and 5 shots at 35% chance success, we’re looking at eight shots hitting in the minimum time of stunning. Average stunning is four times that, so 32 arrows hitting. (This elf brought a lot of arrows.) Given average damage for a +1 dragonbane composite longbow, we’re looking at 12 times 32, or 384 damage in average rolls and stunning time. I’d say it takes about a minute’s worth of firing at the stunned dragon to kill it when you add the damage from the pre-stunning volleys, and that assumes none of the hits are critical. Since our elven friend has over 5 HD, he’ll only be shaken if he fails the Frightful Presence save.

[Armads]

What if he flies 1000ft up?

[Ganurath]

What if he flies 1000ft up?Then he can't hit me with anything, can he? Unless he's eaten recently, but even then the 'bomb' wouldn't fall so far in a single round, he'd need to be within the elf's nearest range increment to hit with that load.

[Kaelik]

Since you never stated starting position I will declare that my three (3) Elven Wizards start 30ft from the Dragon, surrounding him (though that shouldn't matter.)

All are built the same.

Important stats:
Dex 20 (24 enhanced)
Int 16

Feats:
Non-Combatant Flaw
Vulnerable Flaw
Aggressive Trait
1) Improved Initiative
Flaw: Spell Focus Divination
Flaw: Split Ray
3) Insightful Divination
6) Arcane Thesis (Ray of Stupidity)

Familiar: Hummingbird
Races of the Wild substitution level.

Buffing phase:
1) Each casts a lvl 3 Divination spell.
2) Each casts Cat's Grace on themself.
3) Each casts True Casting.

Roll Initiative:

Dragon: 1d20-1
Wizards: 1d20+24

Fair to say they all go before it.

Each casts a Split Ray of Stupidity at dragon. With a +10 to hit a touch AC of 9, all non-ones hit. Caster level checks DC 18, 1d20+16, all non-ones succeed. Roll 1d4+1 Int damage for each ray. If all rays hit, pass spell resistance but roll ones Dragon is still unconscious. Higher rolls make up for any misses or spells resisted.

While this could statistically fail, I consider the odds good enough that were I a level six Wizard I would volunteer.

The other thing to do is if starting far away, ready actions to cast if he comes within range. This poses the problem of the 80ft breath weapon. My solution is to have all the Wizards cry and scream, act helpless, and have conversations about not having combat spells prepared for the day. Use the Divination spells (assuming the Dragon makes his spellcraft check) to further mislead him. Then buff with your meager buffs, and beg the Big Dragon not to eat you. Pretty please. He should just go straight for the grapple, eat tactic. Since he seems to have a nice meal (IE maybe smack them around, but don't melt the meal, because then you can't eat them.)

While it does have a small chance of failure, that is almost impossible to avoid against a CR 9 encounter that can fly and has an 80ft range breath weapon. (When only level six.)

[Armads]

Then he can't hit me with anything, can he? Unless he's eaten recently, but even then the 'bomb' wouldn't fall so far in a single round, he'd need to be within the elf's nearest range increment to hit with that load.

But your aim is to defeat the dragon, not to survive the encounter.

[Ganurath]

But your aim is to defeat the dragon, not to survive the encounter.The dragon needs to stay up to maintain the stalemate. He'll need to sleep sooner than the elf.

[Armads]

Actually, the dragon could just eat the damage for not sleeping, since has a lot more hit points than the elf.

[Hario]

EDIT: Just remembered, I'm not sure if Shivering touch is 4th level but just in case: it's off limits.

Its actually a 3rd level spell xD.

and De-Trick that is the spell but there is also Shivering Touch (lesser).

For the Trick I'll need 2 wizards (only to cover a WBL issue of 1k but it can easily be fixed with a few metamagic lowering feats like precocious apprentice (I think that's the feat.)

1 Human Wizard 6 1 human commoner (whatever you want to fill WBL, you could put another wizard here with the same feats but who cares...)

Feats. Improved Initiative,
Insightful Divination,
Empower spell,
(any really)

Items Metamagic Rod Maximize (lesser) *Can be fixed by taking the feat and lowering the metamagic price through feats and take the empower spell feat instead but I don't want to spend the time to look all that up before work*
The Wizard Borrowed or pooled 1k from his buddy the human commoner. As payment for the black dragon killing his sheep.

Between an average dex score, Improved intiative and insightful divination, you'll get at least a +7 to your intiative, enough to go first at least.

Wizard wins Initiative, Steps up, casts a Maximized, Empowered (level 3 now) Shivering Touch (lesser) which does 1d6+4 or 10 dex damage. Assuming you pass the spell resistance which can be passed with spell penetration feat (if you wanna spend a feat on it.) or Assay Spell Resistance which will make SR moot, as a swift action. Standard procedure, coupe de grace the f- out of the dragon till he's done.

You said Shivering Touch was banned but not Shivering Touch, Lesser which is a little more balanced of a spell.

[Reel On, Love]

Ray of Clumsiness + Ray of Exhaustion is the "standard", Shivering Touch-less Easy Dragon KO method.

You need to be able to beat the dragon's SR. Fortunately, scrolls of Assay Resistance can be had with a CL of 7, and True Casting might help. After that, one person hits the dragon with Empowered Ray of Clumsiness, another hits him with Ray of Exhaustion, and the dragon can't move. Coup de Grace from thee.

[Hasivel]

Hmm, Vivacious isn't banned for some reason. Alright, vivacious human Barbarian 3 again. Just for fun, I'll take flyby attack as one of my three feats, and VOP for the other two. My AC is now huge. I'll take Touch of Golden Ice for my exalted feat at second level.

This is actually probably an easier fight than the devil was for my character. It's got a weak touch AC of 9 so I can probably hit it with my positive energy ray 80% of the time or more. With flyby attack I can hide in the floor, spring out, blast it, and hide again in a single round. One hit and the dragon's stuck facing the death by infinite Fort saves. Like the Devil, it's fort save of +15 will give it four or five rounds of my hiding in the floor average before it explodes. If this seems to be taking too long I can ravage it with Golden Ice, oh look, dex damage to it's really low dex score.

It can try to smite me, of course. That basically means magic missile since it has only first level sorcerer spells available. It can try acid arrow or burning hands or such, but those all have a 50% miss chance. It's breath weapon is nasty and can potentially kill me in one round, but again, 50% miss chance so it's hardly a sure thing and I only need to be vulnerable for a single round to get it's HP into explodey territory.

[Reel On, Love]

Er.

What stops the dragon from hitting itself to prevent that tactic?

[Hasivel]

First just deciding that it can hit itself in the first place would take some houseruling.

Second, as I said, if it doesn't fall to the positive energy ray right off, I can ravage it with Golden Ice until it's paralyzed and then positive energy it 'til it explodes.

[Lochar]

Touch of Golden Ice Dex damage.

[Armads]

Vivacious is LA +5, not LA +3. Crystalkeep is wrong: I have the Planar Handbook, so I can check it. So you'd have to be Barbarian 1, which would render you vulnerable to magic missile. And you still cannot beat the dragon if it flies up.

[Rift_Wolf]

Would 10,000 Stirges be able to do it?
Or 20 druids all summoning dire weasels every round?

[Hasivel]

Vivacious is LA +5, not LA +3. Crystalkeep is wrong: I have the Planar Handbook, so I can check it. So you'd have to be Barbarian 1, which would render you vulnerable to magic missile. And you still cannot beat the dragon if it flies up.
Interesting, my copy does say 3. A reprint? Errata? Even at Barbarian 1 I am not vulnerable to magic missile, Vivacious comes with fast healing 5 so even if it tags me I can hide in the walls and heal it away. It's 3rd level magic missiles will hit me with 2d4+2 damage, for an average of 7 damage, 2 after I heal. Even at maximum damage of 10 it can't even get through my first hit die, much less an CON bonus I bring to the table (And vivacious also gives you +2 Con so I'll have plenty). And of course it's only got 6 magic missiles before spellcasting is exhausted.

Flying is no help, Positive Energy Ray is a ranged touch attack so I don't have to move far from the walls to tag it in the air. In fact flying makes it much easier for me, in the air it's movement is very restricted since it's a poor flyer. It's only real hope is to manage to hit me with it's breath weapon, which depends on it knowing where in the map I'm going to pop out, and that could be anywhere since I have no reason not to wander the map at will through the walls and show up in any random location.

[GoC]

I've clarified starting places.


AThe dragon will no doubt be laughing hysterically as it moves in to snatch its seemingly helpless prey before the dragon gets close enough for the elf to stun him for 5d4 rounds with Dust of Sneezing and Choking.

Forgot about Dust of Sneezing and choking....
That's what killed the last dragon.:smallfrown:

Hasivel: Cage match remember? Walls&floors cannot be penetrated.

Reel On, Love: I think Ray of Clumsiness cannot lower Dex below 1. I'll have to find my Spell Compedium to check. EDIT: Yep, Minimum Dex is 1.


Then he can't hit me with anything, can he? Unless he's eaten recently, but even then the 'bomb' wouldn't fall so far in a single round, he'd need to be within the elf's nearest range increment to hit with that load.
What if mister dragon decides to become a living bomb ALA Archangel Yuki?:smallwink:

[Hasivel]

If you're specifying that incorporeal creatures can't move inside the walls and floor, yeah my build is totally screwed and fails in a round or two.

Editing in my next idea to avoid double-posts:

Human Bard 6, because Bards are Badass.

Important Spells: Glibness, Eagle's Splendor.

Important skills: Bluff, Speak language (Draconic), Knowledge: Religion

Barely Important Class Ability: Bardic Knowledge

Cast both important spells during my prep. For my total bluff score I now have:

+9 Ranks
+5 Charisma (Includes Eagle's Splendor)
+2 Masterwork Tool (Distracting Jewelry)
+30 Glibness.

If custom items are allowed, a +skill item would boost it still further. They're remarkably cheap, even for a 6th level character.

First round:
I explain the awful truth to the Dragon, I AM IT'S GOD! Yes, I'm Tiamat in disguise come to test the dragon's faith. I really like it's work, grade A pillaging, killing, and destruction. In fact I've decided to promote this dragon to be part of my Harem of cute male dragons (or part of my heavenly honor guard if it happens to be a female dragon).
The dragon just needs to give me a show of faith to prove it's got the right stuff, by killing itself in Sacrifice to Tiamat right now in front of me.

My Bluff check is presumably at -20 because this is nearly impossible to believe. On the other hand if the dragon doesn't want to believe this (+5) it's a very strange black dragon. I'll just assume I'm at -20 though. If possible I'll use Bardic Knowledge to get some details on this dragon and customize my approach for an additional +2 circumstance bonus.

My total Bluff: +26 minimum (46-20), more with any real tweaking.
The dragon's Sense Motive: +1 from Wis (Not on it's class list of skills)
Looks like I win. On skill rolls natural 1s are not failures and natural 20s are not successes. The dragon can't roll better than 21 and I can't roll worse than 27. The dragon believes me utterly and does as I command, flying high into the air and then slamming into the ground at top speed to kill itself. I do a brief victory dance, then slap myself up the head. Without the dragon how am I going to cart it's treasure home? I should have told it Tiamat demands it put it's treasure in my home first.

[GoC]

Well it took a bit longer than usual for the "diplomacy pwns' build to show up but it did in the end...

[Ganurath]

What if mister dragon decides to become a living bomb ALA Archangel Yuki?:smallwink:We've been generous so far, but take a look at the ABD's mental stats. Do you honestly think he'd come up with something that complex to thwart a threat he isn't aware of when he has claws, a bite, wing smacks, and a tail slap?

Edit @ Hasivel: Copycat.

[Hasivel]

To a degree, Ganurath, but my build is one much more likely to get past a DM. I don't do anything that's remotely outside of the most basic of core abilities, don't use magic items, and don't do any min-maxing, so I thought it was a good build to throw up anyway.

[Ganurath]

To a degree, Ganurath, but my build is one much more likely to get past a DM. I don't do anything that's remotely outside of the most basic of core abilities, don't use magic items, and don't do any min-maxing, so I thought it was a good build to throw up anyway.Oh? Then explain how you cast Glibness, which a bard can't cast until level 7.

[dentrag2]

Fine. allow me to solve this as it would be done in MY campaign.
Ill use the Chars we already have.

A 6th lvl warforged.

3rd level fighter, 3rd level Myrmidon.

a 2nd lvl monk/2nd lvl wizard/1st lvl cleric/1st lvl druid human

a 5th level human (shapeshifter) Were-spider.

there, thats 3 characters. now this would happen. the dragon would go for the multiclassed monk, and the monk, with a char from 2nd ed updated to third, has the Manyspell feat that was invented for someone elses campaign, (i allowed it because its an old char. manyspell allows you to cast 1 spell a turn from each spellcasting class.) would cast summon creature 1, summon natures ally 1, and barkskin. (plant domain.) we now have some cannon fodder. the ranger sends in his giant spider animal compainion. now the dragon flys over to the spellcaster, who then uses stunning fist. assuming that fails, the fighter uses Intervene when the dragon attacks, and he pushes it about 15 feet, and doesnt suceed on his knockdown. the ranger then shifts to spider and webs the dragon. then the mage starts casting magic missles, and flanking from the spider and fighter, and the companion and summoned.the people who take damage will be healed by the monk. eventually the dragon will fall! :smallcool:

[dentrag2]

If you're specifying that incorporeal creatures can't move inside the walls and floor, yeah my build is totally screwed and fails in a round or two.

Editing in my next idea to avoid double-posts:

Human Bard 6, because Bards are Badass.

Important Spells: Glibness, Eagle's Splendor.

Important skills: Bluff, Speak language (Draconic), Knowledge: Religion

Barely Important Class Ability: Bardic Knowledge

Cast both important spells during my prep. For my total bluff score I now have:

+9 Ranks
+5 Charisma (Includes Eagle's Splendor)
+2 Masterwork Tool (Distracting Jewelry)
+30 Glibness.

If custom items are allowed, a +skill item would boost it still further. They're remarkably cheap, even for a 6th level character.

First round:
I explain the awful truth to the Dragon, I AM IT'S GOD! Yes, I'm Tiamat in disguise come to test the dragon's faith. I really like it's work, grade A pillaging, killing, and destruction. In fact I've decided to promote this dragon to be part of my Harem of cute male dragons (or part of my heavenly honor guard if it happens to be a female dragon).
The dragon just needs to give me a show of faith to prove it's got the right stuff, by killing itself in Sacrifice to Tiamat right now in front of me.

My Bluff check is presumably at -20 because this is nearly impossible to believe. On the other hand if the dragon doesn't want to believe this (+5) it's a very strange black dragon. I'll just assume I'm at -20 though. If possible I'll use Bardic Knowledge to get some details on this dragon and customize my approach for an additional +2 circumstance bonus.

My total Bluff: +26 minimum (46-20), more with any real tweaking.
The dragon's Sense Motive: +1 from Wis (Not on it's class list of skills)
Looks like I win. On skill rolls natural 1s are not failures and natural 20s are not successes. The dragon can't roll better than 21 and I can't roll worse than 27. The dragon believes me utterly and does as I command, flying high into the air and then slamming into the ground at top speed to kill itself. I do a brief victory dance, then slap myself up the head. Without the dragon how am I going to cart it's treasure home? I should have told it Tiamat demands it put it's treasure in my home first.

NOTE THAT THE SKILL STATES THAT THE TARGET WILL NOT DO ANYTHING HARMFUL TO ITSELF! therefore, this is impossible. nice try. also, i doubt the dragon would really slam itself into the wall. dragons are smarter than that.

[Reel On, Love]

Reel On, Love: I think Ray of Clumsiness cannot lower Dex below 1. I'll have to find my Spell Compedium to check. EDIT: Yep, Minimum Dex is 1.
That only applies to Ray of Clumsiness itself, not to everything else.
Ray of Clumsiness lowers the dex TO one. Then Ray of Exhaustion hits and imposes Fatigue, which gives a -2 penalty to (STR and) DEX. Dex becomes -1.

[GoC]

*snip*
You're a really evil DM if you're throwing encounters 5 CR higher than the party.:smalltongue:

EDIT:
Reel On, Love: It's a penalty not damage or drain so you can still move because you're Dex is over 0.

[Draz74]

My total Bluff: +26 minimum (46-20), more with any real tweaking.
The dragon's Sense Motive: +1 from Wis (Not on it's class list of skills)
Looks like I win. On skill rolls natural 1s are not failures and natural 20s are not successes. The dragon can't roll better than 21 and I can't roll worse than 27. The dragon believes me utterly and does as I command, flying high into the air and then slamming into the ground at top speed to kill itself. I do a brief victory dance, then slap myself up the head. Without the dragon how am I going to cart it's treasure home? I should have told it Tiamat demands it put it's treasure in my home first.

Sense Motive most certainly is on dragons' list of racially preferred (i.e. "class") skills.

[Ganurath]

Sense Motive most certainly is on dragons' list of racially preferred (i.e. "class") skills.Ah, but the sample Black Dragon demonstrates that they invest their racial skill points elsewhere.

[Azerian Kelimon]

You could always try the epic use of bluff, to implant a suggestion on it.

[Reel On, Love]

EDIT:
Reel On, Love: It's a penalty not damage or drain so you can still move because you're Dex is over 0.

You're stretching. What do you think a penalty is? It's just a change in effective dex, rather than damage--your Dex is still below 0 because of the penalty. Ray of Clumsiness + Ray of Exhaustion is standard dragon-killing stuff.

[GoC]

You're stretching. What do you think a penalty is? It's just a change in effective dex, rather than damage--your Dex is still below 0 because of the penalty. Ray of Clumsiness + Ray of Exhaustion is standard dragon-killing stuff.

If you wish.
Any other solutions?
So far we've had:
Diplomacy
Bluff
Ray of Clumsiness + Ray of Exhaustion

[JackMage666]

NOTE THAT THE SKILL STATES THAT THE TARGET WILL NOT DO ANYTHING HARMFUL TO ITSELF! therefore, this is impossible. nice try. also, i doubt the dragon would really slam itself into the wall. dragons are smarter than that.

It depends on how it's viewed. If it views sacrificing itself as beneficial, not a harm, then it's not harming itself.

In the same way, if you gave someone a Fire Extinguisher filled with Sulfiric Acid, lit them on fire, then lied and told them the Fire Extinguisher was normal, they would use it, causing harm to themself. They BELIEVED it would be beneficial, but it ended up harmful.

Same to the Dragon.

[Kaelik]

If you wish.
Any other solutions?
So far we've had:
Diplomacy
Bluff
Ray of Clumsiness + Ray of Exhaustion

What? You ignore my Super Init of doom Wizards with Int damage?

GOOD DAY SIR!

[GoC]

What? You ignore my Super Init of doom Wizards with Int damage?

GOOD DAY SIR!

I updated the rules to include a starting distance so your strategy stopped working.

[Kaelik]

I updated the rules to include a starting distance so your strategy stopped working.

I gave the solution to that problem in the original post. It's called readied actions and pretending to be helpless.

If the Dragon comes within 40ft he is instantly knocked unconscious. If you are all a bunch of helpless mages crying out for help and begging the Dragon not to eat you then he's going to close, since the only other option he has is melting you, and that way he doesn't get to eat anything.

If my strategy doesn't work then Ray of Clumsiness doesn't work either, because it has the same range.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

That only applies to Ray of Clumsiness itself, not to everything else.
Ray of Clumsiness lowers the dex TO one. Then Ray of Exhaustion hits and imposes Fatigue, which gives a -2 penalty to (STR and) DEX. Dex becomes -1.


Actually, it doesn't matter in which order you cast the spells.
If a spell says it can't reduce the stat below 1 then the stat only become 0 if all other modifiers without that particular spell would turn it to 0.
I'll try to find a SRD refrence for you.

[Kaelik]

Actually, it doesn't matter in which order you cast the spells.
If a spell says it can't reduce the stat below 1 then the stat only become 0 if all other modifiers without that particular spell would turn it to 0.
I'll try to find a SRD refrence for you.

That's stupid. This kind of "logic" makes no sense to me.

Why do people try to insist that effects don't stack?

Does a Sorcerer 19/Fighter 1 with Practiced Spellcaster and a Ring of Arcane Might have a CL of 21. YES.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

That's stupid. This kind of "logic" makes no sense to me.

Why do people try to insist that effects don't stack?

Does a Sorcerer 19/Fighter 1 with Practiced Spellcaster and a Ring of Arcane Might have a CL of 21. YES.

You misunderstood what I was trying to say, the effects do stack.
If creature X has a dex of 20 and the ray of clumsiness does 10 dmg, and the ray of exation then causes -2 to dex then creature X has a dex of 8

However if creature Y has a dex of 10 and the ray of clumsiness does 10 dmg, reducing it to 1, if you add another -2(from any source) then it stays 1 because ray of clumsiness can not reduce dex below 1. The score will only become 0 if you manager to get a total of -10 to dex from other sources.

I can't find the correct reference in the SRD BTW, but I'm sure this is the way it's supposed to be.

[Doomsy]

40 lvl 6 Samurai.

[Kaelik]

You misunderstood what I was trying to say, the effects do stack.
If creature X has a dex of 20 and the ray of clumsiness does 10 dmg, and the ray of exation then causes -2 to dex then creature X has a dex of 8

However if creature Y has a dex of 10 and the ray of clumsiness does 10 dmg, reducing it to 1, if you add another -2(from any source) then it stays 1 because ray of clumsiness can not reduce dex below 1. The score will only become 0 if you manager to get a total of -10 to dex from other sources.

I can't find the correct reference in the SRD BTW, but I'm sure this is the way it's supposed to be.

No that's not the way it works, because when you do something, and then do something else, the first thing you did doesn't change because of the new effect.

When you cast Harm on someone, and then Stab them in the face, they don't gain HP because "Harm doesn't allow them to be reduced below 1."

[Fenix_of_Doom]

No that's not the way it works, because when you do something, and then do something else, the first thing you did doesn't change because of the new effect.

When you cast Harm on someone, and then Stab them in the face, they don't gain HP because "Harm doesn't allow them to be reduced below 1."

True, but harm doesn't have a duration of 1 min/level, it's instantaneous, that makes all the difference.

Edit:@ Kaelik, I don't think there is a point in arguing with you any further, I shall wait and see if others can offer us useful facts/opinions.

[Kaelik]

True, but harm doesn't have a duration of 1 min/level, it's instantaneous, that makes all the difference.

No it doesn't make any difference, because bonuses stack, just like penalties, and if an effect can reduce something below 1 (exhaustion) then it reduces them below one.

[GoC]

If the Dragon comes within 40ft he is instantly knocked unconscious. If you are all a bunch of helpless mages crying out for help and begging the Dragon not to eat you then he's going to close, since the only other option he has is melting you, and that way he doesn't get to eat anything.

If my strategy doesn't work then Ray of Clumsiness doesn't work either, because it has the same range.

Unless it's specificaly stated that you can reduce the stats to 0 then it doesn't work. This is somewhere in the SRD.
Otherwise you can kill CR 13-17 monsters with a single spell every time.

[Kaelik]

Unless it's specificaly stated that you can reduce the stats to 0 then it doesn't work. This is somewhere in the SRD.
Otherwise you can kill CR 13-17 monsters with a single spell every time.

No that isn't anywhere in the SRD, or anywhere at all. Specific spells (Like Ray of Enfeeblement or Ray of Clumsiness) state that you cannot reduce below one. All forms of ability damage/drain or penalties reduce you to 0 unless they say otherwise.

How do I know this? Because there is a place in the PHB (or DMG?) that states what happens if you have a zero for a score, and there is no single effect in the entire game of D&D that states, "this can reduce you to zero."

There are even specific creatures which say, "If you are reduced to 0 Wisdom by this attack, then it starts to affect Constitution" even though those effects don't say that you can be reduced to 0. Because they don't have to. Because being reduced to 0 is the default state unless then penalty states otherwise.

[FlyMolo]

There's whole chapters on which kind of bonuses stack and which don't.

That's the reason bonuses are usually classified. Insight, etc etc.

A hah! Solution to the OP. A bunch of warlocks. All the warlocks take eldritch spear as a least invocation, Weapon Focus and Finesse(ray), plus spell penetration as feats. Frightful blast, sickening blast, fog cloud, miasmic cloud, darkness, and summon swarm least invocations spread among the warlocks, with bestow curse, charm, and beshadowed blast as a lesser invocations.

All right, battle plan proceeds as follows: All the warlocks spend time darknessing and fog clouding the whole area during the prep stage. Perhaps dark one's own luck, to provide a bonus to reflex saves to help survivability. Some of the warlocks blast at the dragon with frightful and sickening blasts, lowering it's saves. A platoon of warlocks go in to try and bestow curse. After the dragon is sickened, cursed, fatigued, and shaken(and maybe charmed) all the warlocks with beshadowed blast switch to those exclusively. The dragon becomes blind. Summoned swarms inflict bleeding and strength damage from poison. Given enough warlocks, this could work. Somebody else would have to do the save bonus math, however. I think the cumulative penalty to save bonuses from being sickened, cursed, fatigued, and shaken is enough to make the dragon fail it's saves versus distraction from the swarms and blindness. Getting the dragon to fail enough saves to take enough of a penalty to fail more saves is a piece of cake. It's gotta roll a nat. 1 sometime.

If you want survivability, just remove all the lesser invocations and replace them with flee the scene. It's a dimension door that leaves behind an illusionary double for one round. Keep skipping around, and the dragon will spend half it's time biting at air.

If you want just one character, consider the infinite damage loop. Or without cheese, get a portable hole and a bag of holding. Hold them behind your back. When the dragon gets close enough, drop the hole into the bag. Or vice versa. I forget exactly which one throws you out of the universe.

[Armads]

You don't need Weapon Finesse. Rays already use Dex.

EDIT: And the dragon can still fly ridiculously high.