Overpowered Races

[Toulash]

Hi

Anyone else think many of the level adjustment races are simply way too overpowered? Just for kicks I made up a frost folk Monk/Fighter and pretty much am unstoppable. All for a +1? level adjustment.

Azerblood and a couple other fit into this same category. Way too overpowered.

[Emperor Demonking]

Do they have HD?
If yes did you count it?

[Toulash]

So the 4hd for the race description should be counting against the experience points as well? So in effect, the frost folk would be a +5 adjustment?

[PirateMonk]

That is correct.

[Hasivel]

Yes, each HD is one level and each point of LA is one level. A Frostfolk Barbarian 1 is treated as a 6th level character.

Most LA races are horribly underpowered. There's a very few worth their LA. Nothing the Frostfolk gets aside from it's mildly powerful ability score bonuses is remotely worth the cost in class abilities from lost levels. A melee character can get by since it maintains progression of BAB for most of it's levels and the Saves are okay, but nobody else will look twice.

As far as I can tell, the races that tend to be worth their LA are Pixies (Invisibility all the time, still debatable though), Catfolk, some of the Anthropomorphic animals, and Aasimar. There's probably a few more I'm missing but not that many.

[Emperor Demonking]

It should be mentioned that you get BAB, skills, saves and feats from HD.

[JackMage666]

HD are more like levels than Level Adjustment, because you get HP, BAB, Skills, and Saves. While nowhere near great, compared to LA (which is just dead space to balance you out with other players), they're decent. This is especially true with certain monster types (Dragon and Outsiders, mainly), who actually get rather good stats with their HD. If you think of racial abilities as class features, then think of HD as level (in fact, there are some variants that allow Monster Class, where you gain level in the Monster class and gain the abilities, which allow for things like Minotaurs in ECL 2 campaigns.).

But, because they really don't do anything, but count as levels (which is harmful to spellcasters and things like that, who use all their levels to increase spellcasting), HD are used to balance out character, so as to not just make the Frostfolk a +3 LA (generally, from what I've noticed, 1 LA=2 HD).

Though, for a Fighter type, the Monsterous Humanoid HD isn't bad at all. All you lose is a few feats for considerably better racial stats and abilities.

[Woland]

Human is a pretty damn powerful race. LA +0, a free feat and extra skill points. Very basic, very, very good.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Anything that grants an extra feat of your choice is brutal. Others that are good are:

Vivacious.
Half-Minotaur.
A lot more, but I can't remember them.

[JMobius]

Human is a pretty damn powerful race. LA +0, a free feat and extra skill points. Very basic, very, very good.

Humans have those same abilities in Star Wars d20, and they're probably quite handily the most powerful race in the core book. I have one other book that has close to a hundred new species, and even out of those humans tower over the vast majority.

No wonder they make up the bulk of the population in the movies. :P

[Worira]

Vivacious and Half-Minotaur are templates, I believe, not races. If we're going for overpowered templates, Mineral Warrior and Divine Minion.

[Tor the Fallen]

Mineral Warrior is a template, not a race.

But as far as races go, the Strongheart Halfling. Whipsergnome is also really, really good.

[Tengu]

LA 0:
Strongheart Halfling
Whisper Gnome
Lesser Aasimar
Lesser Tiefling
Warforged (possibly)

LA +1:
Catfolk
Goliath

[CASTLEMIKE]

Upper levels probably a Noble Djinni with 10 HD and +6 LA for the free daily Wishes in a party. How many DMs will allow one of the PCs to be a Noble Djinni?

+2 LA Half Fey, Phrenic or Shadow Creature templates with LA buydown in a game. Pretty strong with the Noble Djinni using the Savage Species variant for leveling to buy down a +2 LA template before fully levling up in racial.

[Armads]

Neraph:LA +0 outsiders with +2 natural armor

The improved kobold's really, really good, too. +2 size bonus to AC, +1 natural armor, as well as being a kobold.

[Nebo_]

Neraph:LA +0 outsiders with +2 natural armor

The improved kobold's really, really good, too. +2 size bonus to AC, +1 natural armor, as well as being a kobold.

Read it again. It only works on opposed rolls, not AC.

[The Glyphstone]

Upper levels probably a Noble Djinni with 10 HD and +6 LA for the free daily Wishes in a party. How many DMs will allow one of the PCs to be a Noble Djinni?


Well, since 1% of all Djinns are noble Djinns, that's be acceptable. Choose a Djinn as your race, make the character, then roll a D%. On a 100, you're a Noble, otherwise you're stuck with the (decent, but not really worth it) abilities of a normal djinn.

[Armads]

Read it again. It only works on opposed rolls, not AC.

Okay.


Slight Build: The physical stature of kobolds lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category smaller. Whenever a kobold is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as Hide), the kobold is treated as one size smaller if doing so is advantageous to the character. A kobold is also considered to be one size smaller when "squeezing" through a restrictive space. A kobold can use weapons designed for a creature one size smaller without penalty. However, the space and reach of a kobold remain those of a creature of their actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject's size category.

It's applies when there's
- a size modifier (such as size bonus to AC)
- special size modifier for an opposed check (like hide vs spot)

Or you could interpret it the other way, then the sentence looks stupid.

[Tyrael]

Neraph:LA +0 outsiders with +2 natural armor

The improved kobold's really, really good, too. +2 size bonus to AC, +1 natural armor, as well as being a kobold.

Improved Kobold? This intrigues me. Tell me more.

[Armads]

This is the improved kobold (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a). It gets natural weapons, a few random proficiencies, slight build and weapon familiarity (not that great, though)

[Dairun Cates]

For the record, I don't support EVER taking this and if you do I will find you and stab you, but Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale.

[Closet_Skeleton]

For the record, I don't support EVER taking this and if you do I will find you and stab you, but Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale.

Is it worse than anthropomorphic bat druids?

[Durendal]

Quick question, and slightly off topic, but where is the Strongheart Halfling from? I can't find it anywhere on the web.

[Kaelik]

Is it worse than anthropomorphic bat druids?

Nothing is worse then Anthropomorphic Bat Druids. (Except Anthropomorphic Bat Planar Shepards.)

[Yaki]

LA 0:
Strongheart Halfling
Whisper Gnome
Lesser Aasimar
Lesser Tiefling
Warforged (possibly)

LA +1:
Catfolk
Goliath
fixed for emphasis

[graymachine]

The Skulk race out of RoD is pretty nice for Rogues. It's a +1 LA with 2 HD (so functionally a +3 to ECL) in exchange for a +15 racial bonus to Hide, a +8 racial bonus to Move Silently, resistance to scrying, and the ability to use Hide while moving with no penalty, even while running. The 2 HD you have to take come with a better HD than rogue (1d8), so you get a few extra hp. Sadly the only "in class" skills for those 2 HD are Hide and Move Silently, so you're paying double price for any other skills. The ability adjustment is good as long as you don't want your rogue to be very personable; the adjustment is +4 DEX, -2 WIS, and -4 CHA. You can also take the race as a 0 LA, but I'm ususally more than willing to give up the levels for this kind of adjustment.

If you can manage to put an 18 in DEX and an 18 in INT you then have the makings of a truly nasty Assassin.

[Cuddly]

Quick question, and slightly off topic, but where is the Strongheart Halfling from? I can't find it anywhere on the web.

Forgotten Realms.

[daggaz]

I thought whisper gnomes were LA+3 or something horrible? Aren't they?

LAugh, and Anthropormorphic Baleen Whales, only a munchkin would dare to think of playing such a monstrosity. I am curious tho, not having the book that describes anthro-ism... Are you really just playing an intelligent whale or something? I would imagine not being able to leave the water without crushing under your own weight would impact pretty heavily on most campaigns, besides that fact that your...well... a freaking whale.

[Cuddly]

I thought whisper gnomes were LA+3 or something horrible? Aren't they?

Whisper gnomes have no LA.

[JackMage666]

I thought whisper gnomes were LA+3 or something horrible? Aren't they?

No, that's the Snirfeblin. That's probably misspelled, but, seriously, who names a race that?

I actually want to play one one day.... But that +3 LA is killer... Looks more like a +2 LA, but it's arguable...

[Cuddly]

No, that's the Snirfeblin. That's probably misspelled, but, seriously, who names a race that?

The Scandinavians?

[CactusAir]

Glouria. Not really overpowered, but they'll annoy DM and fellow players as much if not more than an overpowered race.

LA+2, 7 HD, +6 CHA, CHA to AC an Saves, casting as 7th level Bard.

Go OA Samarai 1/Paladin2/Monk1/Iajustu master 5/Warblade1/Arcane Duelist2 for Frigging Ridiculous CHA synergy. CHA to AC 3x and to saves 2x, plus CHA based Damage bonus working off a CHA-based skill.

[slexlollar89]

where is the whisper gnom from? I know I have seen it beforebut can't for the life of me remember where!

Thanks bear guy!

[Dark Tira]

I don't know if I'd call them overpowered but Marrulurks make pretty sweet rogues. For 3 HD and a +1 LA they get 2d6 Sneak attack, Poison Use, the assassin's death attack, point blank shot and rapid shot as bonus feats, some various minor abilities, and awesome stats.

[Armads]

where is the whisper gnom from? I know I have seen it beforebut can't for the life of me remember where!

Here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=3)
EVIL FILLER TEXT OF DOOM

[CASTLEMIKE]

Well, since 1% of all Djinns are noble Djinns, that's be acceptable. Choose a Djinn as your race, make the character, then roll a D%. On a 100, you're a Noble, otherwise you're stuck with the (decent, but not really worth it) abilities of a normal djinn.

I disagree OT is overpowered races. Lot of ECL 15 to 20 or greater games being played. IMO you would really be disallowing a Noble Djinni in your game because of the Wish granting ability being overpowering and tough to control in a campaign which is a good reason to disallow the race for a PC. Using your 1% logic standard PCs shouldn't have the option of playing a subrace or planars like Aaisimar or Tieflings or ever rarer half breeds (dragons, fey, celestials and fiends) all of which are lumped together in the "other" categorgy and thus end up being under 1% demographically. Gnomes only make up 2% of a mixed demographic community and subraces like Whisper gnomes comprise a smaller fraction of the population. Based on demographics according to the DMG page 139 a mixed community has 1% half elves and 1% half orcs and no one has a problem with anybody playing one of those races as a PC. The same goes for all the various elven subraces.

[Kaelik]

LAugh, and Anthropormorphic Baleen Whales, only a munchkin would dare to think of playing such a monstrosity. I am curious tho, not having the book that describes anthro-ism... Are you really just playing an intelligent whale or something? I would imagine not being able to leave the water without crushing under your own weight would impact pretty heavily on most campaigns, besides that fact that your...well... a freaking whale.

You aren't a intelligent whale. You are an intelligent monstrous humanoid with legs, arms, and an eerie similarity to a whale. Also, you don't need to stay wet and/or in water.

[Doomsy]

Glouria. Not really overpowered, but they'll annoy DM and fellow players as much if not more than an overpowered race.

I have never heard of this race before, but I have to admit that charisma thing is kind of a cool thing even without deliberately playing into its strengths for raw annoyance. What are they from?

[Chronicled]

I have never heard of this race before, but I have to admit that charisma thing is kind of a cool thing even without deliberately playing into its strengths for raw annoyance. What are they from?

They're from Underdark; there's also a free excerpt with them on the Wizards site.

[Thrythlind]

High LA creatures tend to be crunchy outside, chewy inside

Had a wererat inquistor once that looked pretty fit, but folded pretty fast against even ECL monsters. Granted, part of that was the DM having randomly assigned a mercurial silver longsword to one of the named villains before knowing I would be playing a wererat.

[Nowhere Girl]

Humans have those same abilities in Star Wars d20, and they're probably quite handily the most powerful race in the core book. I have one other book that has close to a hundred new species, and even out of those humans tower over the vast majority.

No wonder they make up the bulk of the population in the movies. :P

At least in Saga, that's only situationally true. Some races actually outperform humans in some builds -- for example, a deceptive shot-focused gunslinger (admittedly, your build really won't kick in seriously until 8th level if you're banking heavily on feints) is strictly better as a twi'lek than as a human, because not only do you get a racial bonus to Charisma in exchange to a penalty to Wisdom, which isn't nearly as important to your build, but you also get a free reroll on all Deception checks.

No matter what the human following the same build does with that free feat, she can never match that, ever.

[Patashu]

For the record, I don't support EVER taking this and if you do I will find you and stab you, but Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale.

Anthropomorphic Tyrannosaurus Rex?

[Talic]

Where are the rules for Anthropomorphic?

[Armads]

In Savage Species.

Most broken is Anthromorphic Bat (-4 str, -2 cha, +6 wis, LA 0, fly 20ft, small?!)

[Leon]

Dark Sun Human. for a +1 LA you get two +2 Ability adjusments to place where you want, Choice of what your racial Psi powers will be aswell as all the normal bells & whistles of being a human.

The other races have some nice features but its hard to go past the ultimate in customisability

[daggaz]

How can whisper gnomes have spell like abilities and no LA? I thought that was pretty much automatically 1 LA at least. And silence... thats a pretty useful one to have, at that.

[marjan]

How can whisper gnomes have spell like abilities and no LA? I thought that was pretty much automatically 1 LA at least. And silence... thats a pretty useful one to have, at that.

How can dwarf have +2 con and -2 cha when they said phisical stat is better than mental stat boost? That's WotC.

[Feralgeist]

in star wars d20, zabrak darkside marauder with lots of con, great fortitude and absord energy, or dissipate energy, or whatever it's called. Pretty much going to be healed by most blaster shots and lightsaber strikes

[Emperor Demonking]

How can dwarf have +2 con and -2 cha when they said phisical stat is better than mental stat boost? That's WotC.

Because fighters are so good, they have to be toned down in regards to thier main hitter. Or Wotc don't think con is very good.

[Ne0]

I find Poison Dusk Lizardfolk not necessarily overpowered, but definately worth their +1 LA. They get all small size bonuses, but no penalties, +3 NA, 3 Natural attacks, a total ability modifier of +2, the poison use class ability, Hold Breath (x4 Con), Low-light vision, +4 bonuses on Balance, Jump and Swim checks, and if most of their skin is exposed, they get a +5 on Hide checks as well.

Typing all of this out, I realised that, yes, they are pretty overpowered. :smallbiggrin:

[Kaelik]

How can whisper gnomes have spell like abilities and no LA? I thought that was pretty much automatically 1 LA at least. And silence... thats a pretty useful one to have, at that.

How come regular gnomes have SLAs and no level adjust?

[mostlyharmful]

once per day cantrips, and one level one crappy spell (speak with burrowing animals? how much does the average rabbit have to say?). silence on the other hand is a lot more powerful, doubly so for rogues. Plus the whisper gnome is built better, with superior synergy, for a superior class (for mid to high levels)

[Kaelik]

once per day cantrips, and one level one crappy spell (speak with burrowing animals? how much does the average rabbit have to say?). silence on the other hand is a lot more powerful, doubly so for rogues. Plus the whisper gnome is built better, with superior synergy, for a superior class (for mid to high levels)

Um? Whisper Gnomes are built with superior synergy for a inferior class, or superior synergy for the same class.

Rogue<Wizard
Wizard=Wizard

They are of course a better race, which is why they are used more. But nobody actually uses regular gnomes so that puts them on par with humans. Silence isn't that powerful. It's still the difference between cantrips and a first level spells, and cantrips and a single first level spell.

[mostlyharmful]

Um? Whisper Gnomes are built with superior synergy for a inferior class, or superior synergy for the same class.

Rogue<Wizard
Wizard=Wizard

They are of course a better race, which is why they are used more. But nobody actually uses regular gnomes so that puts them on par with humans. Silence isn't that powerful. It's still the difference between cantrips and a first level spells, and cantrips and a single first level spell.

yeah, but the standerd gnome was put together for bard not wiz. they just happen to be better for the one class that rocks any other, which whisper gnomes are better at as well.

Rogue > Bard is my point,
Wiz> Anything else at all (except maybe cheesey Archivists)

[kpenguin]

Actually, I'd say that bard>rogue, since they are perfect for a diplomancer build.

[Kaelik]

yeah, but the standerd gnome was put together for bard not wiz. they just happen to be better for the one class that rocks any other, which whisper gnomes are better at as well.

Rogue > Bard is my point,
Wiz> Anything else at all (except maybe cheesey Archivists)

Yeah, Bards are actually better then Rogues. They are spellcasters. Certainly (unlike Wizards) they suck at level 1-5, but after level 8 there is no question that Bards are better then Rogues.

And Rogue and Bard are equals in Diplomacy. Since if you are building a true Diplomancer, absolutely nothing else matters except maybe HP/AC after you get to a +20 modifer (reachable at level 3 with Bards/Rogues/Aristocrats/Experts.)

[UserClone]

For the record, I don't support EVER taking this and if you do I will find you and stab you, but Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale.

I actually played one- a Barbarian. I await your knife.:smallbiggrin:

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

In Savage Species.

Most broken is Anthromorphic Bat (-4 str, -2 cha, +6 wis, LA 0, fly 20ft, small?!)

For someone who actually wanted to play an Anthropomorphic Bat because they are cool, this is very disheartening.

[Devin]

I may not actually know I'm talking about, but what about Elans? I hear they have access to aberration feats, leading to the king of smack build.

[JackMage666]

Anthropomorphic Bats are only broken if you play a Wild-Shape Druid. Even if you use other variants for shapeshifting, it's strong, but not broken.

Also consider that that fly speed is Average, so no really finessable flying, and their land speed is only 5 ft. For anything that's not a Druid, they're not looking nearly as pretty anymore.

EDIT - Also, Anthropomorphic Monkey's are better - -4 Str, +2 Dex, +4 Wis, -2 Con. They're considered more balanced, still +1 LA, and a 30 ft land speed for small size. Plus, you're a freakin' Monkey.

[JackMage666]

Personally, if you want to go the Anthropomorphic route, I think the most broken one is the Wolverine. +4 Str, +4 Dex, +8 Con, +4 Wis, +2 Cha. +22 Ability Scores Overall. 2 HD, +2 LA, Medium Size, 30 ft Land Speed. Also, you get Climb and Burrow speeds (10 ft each, but still...), +2 Natural Armor, and the Wolverine's Rage ability (activated anytime you take damage, so placed into a Barbarian you have a build that never runs out of rages) that lasts until you or your enemies are dead. Melee? Yes Please!

[Armads]

I may not actually know I'm talking about, but what about Elans? I hear they have access to aberration feats, leading to the king of smack build.

They aren't really that overpowered. While their racial 'Rs' are pretty good, they're an immediate action to use, which means that they cannot take swift actions on the next turn, and they cannot use it again before the end of their next turn. The King of Smack's main abuse comes from Rapidstrike, which is quite illogical to be taken by an Elan. They also have a -2 cha penalty (almost nothing, but discourages people from playing cha-based characters with them)

[Cuddly]

Elans + alter self = Darkmantle. Flight at level 3? Yes please!

[Kaelik]

Elans + alter self = Darkmantle. Flight at level 3? Yes please!

You can get flight from Alter self without being an Aberration with the right splatbooks. Though yes, having the Aberration type can be useful for exploiting such spells. But everyone already knows those spells are broken as is.

[Jacob Orlove]

If you want fun with Alter Self, try a venerable Dragonwrought Kobold. Who knew that Alter Self imposed a maximum fly speed of 120 ft/round? Only people who use it to turn into dragons. :smallsmile:

[Cuddly]

If you want fun with Alter Self, try a venerable Dragonwrought Kobold. Who knew that Alter Self imposed a maximum fly speed of 120 ft/round? Only people who use it to turn into dragons. :smallsmile:

White dragon wyrmling- 3HD, 60ft land, 30ft burrow, fly 150 ft(avg), swim 60ft. Available at level 3. =)

[Armads]

Shadow Dragon Wyrmling's said to be better.

[CactusAir]

If you want fun with Alter Self, try a venerable Dragonwrought Kobold. Who knew that Alter Self imposed a maximum fly speed of 120 ft/round? Only people who use it to turn into dragons. :smallsmile:

Whitdragonspawn Dragonwrought Kobold w/ greater Draconic rite of Passage.

For an LA+1, you now have two "free" sorceror levels.

With LA buyoff, You can be a sorceror who gets the next level of spells FASTER than a wizard, or you can go Sorceror6/Swiftblade10/Abjurant Champion4, and have 9th level spells with ALL the Swiftblade goodies. Oh, and 17 BAB.

[Frosty]

Whitdragonspawn Dragonwrought Kobold w/ greater Draconic rite of Passage.

And what books would I need to make this anyways? Dragonomicon I assume? Races of Destiny? Dragon Magic?

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Oh, good, then I can still play as a batfolk if I don't use druid and it'll end up balanced. Although anthropomorphic camels are much cooler.

[CactusAir]

And what books would I need to make this anyways? Dragonomicon I assume? Races of Destiny? Dragon Magic?

YOu need the kobold web suplement for GDR and Race of Dragon for Dragonwrought. To be honest i have no clue where "whitedragonspawn" is from.

[Armads]

White Dragonspawn's from Dragonlance