Druid Thoughts/Character Build (Shapeshift from PHB II)

[Cormac]

So...

My DM is giving me 28 point buy, and I have a few fun ideas for this character. he requires that i go with a shapeshift variant druid, but i get an animal companion, so that is pretty sweet.

I will almost certainly be human, and I am thinking of these stats

14
14
12
14
14
8

I will mainly be a summoner and a healer, so my spell dc's wont be that important. and my int is that high because i am thinking of taking the following feats

1 Expertise
1 Improved Trip
3 SF Conj
6 Aug Summoning
9 Spell Familiar (forget actual name of the feat, but it lets me affect my animal companion with spells i cast on myself at 30')
12 Natural bond (assuming that I will be able to have this work on my brown bear)
15 Improved Natural Attack (slam... for plant form and elemental form)
18 WF (slam)

or...
I might get
9 rapid spell
12 Metamagic school focus (the one that decreases the spell level on a metamagic school by 1, making it so i can always rapid spell my summon nature's ally)
15 Spell Familiar (forget actual name of the feat, but it lets me affect my animal companion with spells i cast on myself at 30')
18 Natural bond (assuming that I will be able to have this work on my brown bear)

Basically, I will be a tripping fiend (especially if i have someone cast permanent enlarge person on me at some point) at 16th level i will have a +22 to my tripping.

but... the question i pose to all of you, is, are my feats and stat points better spend elsewhere?

I am pretty sure we are looking at Core +PHB2 +completes, for rule options.

p.s. I sent my DM a link to this discussion.

[KIDS]

An obvious boost is a 1-2 lvl dip into monk or ninja for wisdom to AC; other than that I think your build is quite good and well rounded.

[Tempest Fennac]

I'd say that your Wis should be higher due to how, even if you put all of the stat points you get every 4 level Wis, you wo't be able to use Level 9 spells until you reach level 20 (unless I misunderstood the rules and equiping a Wis boosting item would counter that problem). I'd still be tempted to have a Wis of at least 16 for the 3rd level bonus spell and the slightly higher save DC, which could be important early in the game. How were you planning on distributing your stats?

[Fenix_of_Doom]

A druid build with 14 WIS, now that's something else, remember that a high WIS will still give you bonus spells and allows you to cast higher level spells, so don't neglect it completely.
I wouldn't get WF, the +1 bonus isn't relevant on level 18. Metamagic feats I like with summoning are extend spell(good for buffs too) and imbue summoning. another feat good for a melee druid would be the good old power attack.
About your stats, I would prefer to have a higher CON, you can dump 2 points of STR as you get bonuses to STR while shapeshifted anyway.

[Cormac]

I was going to put all my stat bonuses in wisdom. You raise an interesting point. I could buy a tome of wis at level 17. But I am pretty sure that my DM is going to keep our gold to level ratio very close to DMG recommendations, so i am not wanting to rely too much on expensive goods (thus the possibility of metamagic school focus instead of relying on metamagic rods). I also like the idea of playing a smart character, and i am loathe to drop any of my physical stats any lower. If my DM lets me wear barding in shapeshift form, i might drop my dex (a lower dex also fits my character who is a rather doofy fellow).

Any thoughts on barding or other equipment whilst in shapeshift form? Would it meld away when i turn back into a human?

[Cormac]

A druid build with 14 WIS, now that's something else, remember that a high WIS will still give you bonus spells and allows you to cast higher level spells, so don't neglect it completely.
I wouldn't get WF, the +1 bonus isn't relevant on level 18. Metamagic feats I like with summoning are extend spell(good for buffs too) and imbue summoning. another feat good for a melee druid would be the good old power attack.
About your stats, I would prefer to have a higher CON, you can dump 2 points of STR as you get bonuses to STR while shapeshifted anyway.

where and what is imbue summoning?

[Fenix_of_Doom]

where and what is imbue summoning?

PH II, page 92 IIRC, it takes up a spell slot that is one higher but it grants the summoned creature the benefit of a 3rd level or lower touch spell that you can cast.

[Cormac]

But what spell would you cast? With a range touch, the only ones worth while that i can see below 3rd level are bears endurance, etc. and they dont stack with augment summoning.
Are there better touch spells that i dont see?

[Fenix_of_Doom]

Well I just looked at the druid spell list and using core there are very little druid spells that are usable this way, but at least Greater Magic Fang is useful.

outside core there's Venomfire from Serpent Kingdoms, I've never seen it myself, but here (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-523775) they roughly explain what is does (and give an optimization thread for it).

Edit: changed link.

[Wordmiser]

I prefer to avoid Metamagic-ing Summons unless I'm playing a Wizard (but my group usually makes me the only spellcaster, so versatility is usually my primary goal--this might be different in your group), so I wouldn't recommend Imbue Summoning or Rapid Spell (at least not with Metamagic School Focus; the trick isn't worth two feats). If you do like the Metamagic-ed Summons approach, I recommend Rapid Metamagic so you can keep your full set of spells prepared.

I also don't like the Improved Natural Attack/Weapon Focus feats much. They're okay if there aren't any other options, but there are.

You're a full spellcaster and neither of your builds include Quicken Spell. Fix that.

If you're acting as a party Tank, pick up Combat Reflexes.

I would switch one Intelligence point into Wisdom, but if your party doesn't have any "Survivalist" skill monkey, leaving it might be a good move.

[Cormac]

I prefer to avoid Metamagic-ing Summons unless I'm playing a Wizard (but my group usually makes me the only spellcaster, so versatility is usually my primary goal--this might be different in your group), so I wouldn't recommend Imbue Summoning or Rapid Spell (at least not with Metamagic School Focus; the trick isn't worth two feats). If you do like the Metamagic-ed Summons approach, I recommend Rapid Metamagic so you can keep your full set of spells prepared.

I also don't like the Improved Natural Attack/Weapon Focus feats much. They're okay if there aren't any other options, but there are.

You're a full spellcaster and neither of your builds include Quicken Spell. Fix that.

If you're acting as a party Tank, pick up Combat Reflexes.

I would switch one Intelligence point into Wisdom, but if your party doesn't have any "Survivalist" skill monkey, leaving it might be a good move.


yeah, combat reflexes would be pretty great once i get myself some reach (especially with the trip bonuses). I also think that quicken spell would be a good one to pick up. but i like the idea of metamagic school focus, it not only lets me rapid spell my summoning for free, but if i later take quicken, it could drop the cost of quickening healing spells, or, better yet, harm spells. extend isnt that bad, but most spells i will be extending will be 3rd or lower, so rod of lesser extend should take care of that.

also, the way point buy works is that to get to raise a stat above 14 it costs 2 points (and above 16 it costs 3 points), so i couldnt just drop my int by 1 and raise my wis by 1. if i wanted to make my wis a 16, i would have to make 4 pts appear from somewhere.

I have already taken a lot into consideration, and once i get some more feedback, i will put the rethought-out build up. So far, it seems like the idea of a trip fiend works pretty well with people.
I think that the only problem with the low wisdom that has really gotten me, is that i wont be able to cast 9th level spells until i am 20th level...but the tome of wisdom at 17th level may take care of that).
I guess one of the main things i am thinking about is whether to keep my dex 14 and my con 12. But if i want to take combat reflexes that seems important.
I am loathe to drop my str. as it is key for tripping and my str bonuses from shapeshifting wont stake with bulls strength, et al (since they are both enhancement bonuses).
Also, the question of whether barding on my shapeshifted form works is still pending.

[Chronicled]

ALL your equipment melds when you shapeshift (except maybe Ion stones). That includes any stat boosters. Note too that the bonuses given from your shapeshifting are enhancement bonuses, so they don't stack with Bull's Strength, Bear's Endurance, etc. Greater Magic Fang on yourself is also out since you're effectively getting that for free.

[Cormac]

yes, but what happens if i morph into predator form and have one of my teamates put leather barding on me?

animated shield works too. i dont get a con bonus from shapeshifting either, and my hitpoints remain the same so bracers of con should work.

[Chronicled]

Bracers of Con will not work, they get melded into your form. If you aren't getting a Con bonus, then you can cast Bear's Endurance before you shift. Barkskin is also a good pre-shifting buff.

Leather barding after you shapeshift would be up to DM ruling. I'd rule no. An Animated Shield would be fine, though.

[Leon]

So...
9 Spell Familiar (forget actual name of the feat, but it lets me affect my animal companion with spells i cast on myself at 30')


Companion Spell Bond

[Tor the Fallen]

What level are you starting at, and how long do you plan on going for? If you're starting at low levels, don't worry about what you get at level 18; you probably won't get there.


Leather barding after you shapeshift would be up to DM ruling. I'd rule no. An Animated Shield would be fine, though.

Why?

[Chronicled]

Why?

I seem to recall that was an exception in the rules. If not, then it should also merge as part of your equipment. The PHB2 Shapeshift version was designed so that the "Turn into Dire Ape, put all equipment back on, use weapon" process wouldn't work (and also so that Druids wouldn't stay in their combat/flight form all day, unable to speak until they got Telepathic Bond).

[tyckspoon]

I seem to recall that was an exception in the rules. If not, then it should also merge as part of your equipment. The PHB2 Shapeshift version was designed so that the "Turn into Dire Ape, put all equipment back on, use weapon" process wouldn't work (and also so that Druids wouldn't stay in their combat/flight form all day, unable to speak until they got Telepathic Bond).

Another party member should be able to carry the barding and put it on you after the shapechange, although the Druid might be non-proficient with it (hello, mithral chain shirt barding.) The time required to put it on could make it unfeasible, however- it takes a minimum of 5 minutes to put on light barding (1 minute to don light armors and putting barding on things takes 5 times longer.)

[Cormac]

What level are you starting at, and how long do you plan on going for? If you're starting at low levels, don't worry about what you get at level 18; you probably won't get there.

I will be starting at first and I dont know how long we are playing for, but even if i dont take these feats, i feel like understanding where my current character conception is going will help me understand where he is at now. I feel like planning to only be 9th level lacks some roleplaying for this character, who has long, unrealistical dreams of how ridonculous he will one day be, which he will tell, in great length, to anyone who will listen.

[Bag_of_Holding]

If Races of Eberron is allowed, try Shifter Druid/Moonspeaker with Ashbound Feat. CLx4 summon duration (ashbound, extend spell, extended summoning class ability each doubling the duration, stacking with each other) and free Augment Summoning without Spell Focus (Conjuration)!

Of course, it's a shifter-only PrC (Moonspeaker), so if you're definitely playing Human then it's out, I'm afraid.



P.S. Oh, Moonspeaker PrC has full-casting progression too.

[Tempest Fennac]

I know you said that you wanted good Int and Str, but I'd say that you'd be better off dropping those stats to boost your Wis ( less skill point probably wouldn't affect you that badly due to Druids not really being designed as skill monkeys, and Str isn't that important once you get Wildshape (preferably with Natural Spell).

[Dhavaer]

I know you said that you wanted good Int and Str, but I'd say that you'd be better off dropping those stats to boost your Wis ( less skill point probably wouldn't affect you that badly due to Druids not really being designed as skill monkeys, and Str isn't that important once you get Wildshape (preferably with Natural Spell).

Shapeshift, remember? It boosts Strength instead of replacing it.

[Tempest Fennac]

Sorry about that. If the 8 was being used for Cha, would reducing that futher be a problem? (I'm assuming you won't be that interested in Cha-based skills or Wild Empathy from how your character is set up).

[Cormac]

If i drop my int more than 1 i cant get improved trip (which is the core concept of this character... but this core concept is what is in question... is it worth it to be a tripper?)... plus, as mentioned earlier, i need to drop at least two points to make my wis a 15 and drop 4 pts to make it a 16 (with point buy being what it is).

[Cormac]

So, my new thoughts are to keep the stats the same

14
14
12
14
14
8

1 expertise
1 trip
3 sf conj
6 aug summ
9 combat reflexes (if i can get permanantly enlarged, if not i will switch it with natural bond, because i dont get reach until plantform at 12th level)
12 natural bond
15 Quicken Spell
18 Imbue Summoning

All bonus stats will go to Wisdom, and i will get a tome of int at 17th level. other important magic items are a rod of rapid spell, magical barding. I may go with the spontaneous spell caster variant, so can cast more spells, and leave the healing spells to another party member (though i will get heal when the time comes). Still unsure about that (and unsure if my dm will allow that and if we will have a cleric in the party, but geez, being a healing druid sucks). i will max out spot, listen, survival, knowledge nature, handle animal, spellcraft, and some other skill. I think my dm is going to give me track as a bonus feat while in predator form instead of mobility at 3rd level, so with that and my survival that will be cool.

If you are interested, here are also some of my character background

Part I: an introduction to lemuel chattemeyer

In the Arena, Lemeul "the destroyer" is the finest Death Bringer any audience has ever seen. He vanquished Plano "The Firm" and Everette "The Smasher" with such viciousness, that many arena go-ers were reported to have to avert their eyes. "the destroyer" is one of the greatest death bringers the arena has ever seen, however, for each great hero there is an anti-hero, a villain whose skill matches that of the hero, that anti-hero, that vile death bringer is none other than Greikle "The Divine." The final showdown happened between the two of them only last week, both put !everything! on the line, and to many people's surprise, especially lemuel's, Greikle "The Divine" won, and despite the uncharacteristically pathetic protestetions of "the destroyer," Greikle took !everything!

In order to understand Lemuel, it must first and foremost be made clear that "death bringing" is a game much like "magic the gathering" and that Greikle is 12 (Lemuel is 34), the arena is the basement of a gaming store, and !everything! was lemeul's 100 gp collection of Death Bringing Cards (i am thinking that his impotus for adventuring will be to earn enough quick money to buy a new, solid deck of death bringing cards to defeat Greikle in an upcoming DB tournament).

Part II: Lemuel's Early Life

Lemuel was born in Yurgaton, a small farming village outside of X. His parents, however, were not farmers, nor were they native to this community. They were often marked as outsiders, not only by their peculiar habits, but by their lighter skin tone, and strange accent. The peoples of Yurgaton were not necessarily hostile, but, throughout Lemuel's entire life, he was treated with an interesting mix of curiousity and coldness. Upon reflection the second part may have had more to do with his own social skills (or, more specifically, the lack their of).
Lemuel's parents worked for a society of Wizards, and though their main tower was not in X, X had many research facilities that were, if not vitallly important, at least vitally interesting.
Lemuel's father worked as a researcher for these wizards, combining his knowledge of nature and his knowledge of the arcane to try and find spell components that made spells more powerful or that were easier to use, specifically spell components that related to bugs. Gemtry Chattemeyer (that's my father) was given tenure in his position, and is best known for breeding spiders that made webs that werent sticky (and could therefore be kept more easily and used more easily) for the spell web.
Gemtry was a fantastic father, and when lemuel began to develop the ability to turn into an animal, Gemtry revealed that he too had the power, and he and lemuel would spend hours playing in the woods, hunting rabbits and frolicking.
I imagine Gemtry as a 1st lvl druid and 4th level expert with max skills in knowledge nature, knowledge arcana, and spellcraft, and with the feat skill focus in each.
Lemuel's mother, evelyn, was also a wonderful woman, she worked as a tutor to the local kids, and was quite a scholar of history in her own right. she also loved her husband and child dearly, but she hated her husbands work, partially because it kept him away (she was a bit of a clingy woman... she was very happy to have lemuel live at home until he was 31).
She was also quite a story teller, and filled lemuel's head with stories of his ancestry. she said that they came from a tribe of noble barbarians who were pushed off of their land by the very wizards that gemtry was now working for. apparently they had left the tribe (run away really) at a rather young age, because they were tired of all the conflict, and though evelyn never said so, also because they, a dorky and mild mannered family, probably didnt fit in very well with frothing at the mouth barbarians.
Lemuel, as is his m.o., never held anything against the wizards, but nonetheless became enamored with his barbaric past, and would play barbarian as much as he could. he eventually got into death bringing, the only game where he could find other people to pretend to be barbarians with.
this game became a passion for him, and was the focus of his life, until his father finally insisted, when lemuel was 31, that it was time to leave the house and get a frickin' job.

[Irreverent Fool]

When you shapeshift from human to animal, anything on your person melds into your new form. When you change back, anything put on while in the animal form falls to the ground at your feet. A druid in wild shape will still gain the benefit of armor with the 'wild' quality, but it doesn't say anything in the shapeshift description that 'wild' extends to shapeshifted druids. If you want special barding to be made I think there is an armor quality in the MiC that allows you to call your armor to your body as a standard (mental) action, so that could work if you don't mind losing a round.

Additionally, it doesn't count for wild shape anywhere in any way, shape, or form. Looks like you knew that from the get-go, though.