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Crow
2007-12-24, 12:36 PM
My buddy has a level 20 barbarian who is way over WBL due to the other DM he plays with (He's even got Breasplate that comes out to a +16 item). Fine by me, I just want him to have fun playing the game when he hangs with us. But he is always talking about this idiot and his toys and it's getting annoying. I've told him that his character is not all that good, and that his items are the crutch that holds up his character (I know, that was mean). He got all pissed and so now we're going to settle it in-game.

I set the terms for the character I'm building to challenge his barb; 190,000xp, 760,000gp. Any books I need.

I want to utterly humiliate this guy. I was thinking straight wizard to begin with, but I want to "beat him at his own game" a little too, in order to really rub it in, while still showing him how one-dimensional his barbarian is. For this reason, I decided on a gish (with the added benefit that I'm not too bad at making them).

I had a few questions;

I'm looking at a wiz5/AbChamp5/EldKnt10.

Is there a way to get armor proficiencies in there so i can squeeze in a level of spellsword? This would allow me to avoid having to shell out for a twilight enchantment. I believe the Militia feat I will be taking only gives proficiency in martial weapons. Is this correct?

Are there any spells that I can use to get the +9 armor bonus I would get from the +5 mithral chain, and thus avoid that expense altogether?

Are there any useful PrC's that a wizard can get into at or before ECL5? Just for that extra little punch...

Thanks in advance. I can't wait to hit this bastard with a Disjunction.

Zim
2007-12-24, 12:45 PM
No need to get too fancy. Fly, Greater Invisibility and magic missile should do it...eventually. You can also rapid summon some monsters (rust monsters that is) to wear him down.

Ganurath
2007-12-24, 12:56 PM
I looks to me as though you haven't decided on class and levels. It'd be easy for him to argue that you only won because you were an arcanist and they're insane at higher levels, and he'd be right. That's why you're going to use a combat oriented build of your own to serve him a helping of humble pie. I advise the Masked Avenger Build.

The Birth of a Monster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3596302&postcount=19)
Advice for Feats and Skills (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3598466&postcount=28)

I'd need to see what sort of equipment barbarian boy is packing before I can advise you on what sort of equipment to take, but Cloak of Charisma is a must. Your barbarian buddy is looking at a 20+Cha modifier Will save to avoid dying, and that's assuming 6d6 sudden strike, base bonus damage from Strength and Power Attack, and whatever fun enchantments you intend to put on your weapon. Spell Storing is naturally a must, and you will cast Distract Assailant into it after the initial round of combat.

Kaelik
2007-12-24, 12:57 PM
Okay.

First, you build doesn't work, or rather, you'll have to take Eldritch Knight levels before Abjurant Champion since you don't have the BAB at level 5.

As for gishes though, I assume you want 9th level spells so that you can Disjunction him, so I'll only make suggestions of that type.

Wizard 2/Human Paragon 3/Ruathar 3 (RoW)/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Phantom Blade 6 (Web enhancement, or use Eldritch Knight).

Level 18 casting. BAB of 17.

Human Paragon gives Martial Weapons I think, or maybe Ruathar.

Take pre-req feats. Then take Power Attack. Use Wriathstrike or the Phantom Blade ability to hit.

Another alternative is:

Wizard 2/Human Paragon 3/Ruathar 3/Spellsword 3/Abjurant Champion 5/Phantom Blade 4.

This still gives 17th casting (9th level) to disjunction him.

Then use a Power Attack full, Leap Attack, Channel (Combust? Disintegrate? whatever.) To kill him in one attack.

As for armor, search around, someone once explained good armor spells to get AC with Abjurant Champion (IE, something that stacks your Abjurant level on top of it, so give like +11 AC or something.)

Fhaolan
2007-12-24, 12:58 PM
EDIT: Sorry, was interrupted while posting, so I wasn't completely thinking things through. Let me admend:

I can't really help much, as I'm not a build-meister, but if I may make a recommendation?

I think it would drive the point home better if you beat him with another barbarian, or part barbarian. Beating him with a non-barbarian gish or primary spellcaster is basically changing the rules he normally plays under. Beating him with another barbarian is beating him with his own rules.

I don't really have any clear idea how to do that, that you haven't already thought of. Sorry.

Crow
2007-12-24, 01:00 PM
First, you build doesn't work, or rather, you'll have to take Eldritch Knight levels before Abjurant Champion since you don't have the BAB at level 5.

I understand this. I was just listing the classes and total levels, not trying to show the order I would take them in. EK is split up. :smallwink:

Ganurath
2007-12-24, 01:02 PM
EDIT: Sorry, was interrupted while posting, so I wasn't completely thinking things through. Let me admend:

I can't really help much, as I'm not a build-meister, but if I may make a recommendation?

I think it would drive the point home better if you beat him with another barbarian, or part barbarian. Beating him with a non-barbarian gish or primary spellcaster is basically changing the rules he normally plays under. Beating him with another barbarian is beating him with his own rules.

I don't really have any clear idea how to do that, that you haven't already thought of. Sorry.The Masked Avenger could start off with Barbarian, but he'd have to put more effort into accumulating the ranks in Concentration to qualify for the Ghost-Faced Killer PrC.

RTGoodman
2007-12-24, 01:13 PM
For PrCs that you can enter under ECL 5, Complete Mage has the Master Specialist. You have to be a specialist wizard (in your case, most likely Abjuration), but it gives full casting and small special abilities depending on school. I think you can enter it as your 4th level.

Worira
2007-12-24, 01:33 PM
Why are you putting random words in italics?

Crow
2007-12-24, 01:38 PM
Why are you putting random words in italics?

I try to put names of classes, feats and spells (or enchantments) in italics.

I accidentally highlighted "enchantment" where I meant to highlight "twilight". But it is fixed now. Do you have any more useful comments to add?

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-24, 01:39 PM
My suggestion? Use an ubercharger to show him he sucks ass. It'll drive the point home, but if it doesn't, start doing the "I beat you" conga.

Worira
2007-12-24, 01:40 PM
Well, there's always the good old spiked chain build.

sikyon
2007-12-24, 01:41 PM
You could just optimize a barbarian far more than his character is. Power attack, shock trooper, leap something or the other, basically just 1 hit kill him

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-24, 01:41 PM
That's nice, but it's a bit sadistic for someone who's only an idiot.

Edit: This refers to the spiked chain.

OOTS_Rules.
2007-12-24, 01:47 PM
Play as a rust monster with a Cloak of Greater Invisibility, a Necklace of Fireballs, and some AC-increasing items. Rust away his loot, show the fireballs down his throat, and run.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-24, 01:48 PM
Didn't barbs get evasion? That stops that trick.

OOTS_Rules.
2007-12-24, 01:49 PM
You can't evade something inside of your throat. He could, in theory, disembowel himself, but that is suicide.

graymachine
2007-12-24, 01:50 PM
Well, as much a fan as I am of making people cry I'd say that this situation would be quicker resolved by taking a ruler and each of you going into a bathroom to take measurements. Honestly, this method of handling this kind of situation almost always ends badly. Talking about it outside of the game is really the best way to go.

All that said, if you are still set on this then the best way is to keep it simple: something with straight levels out of ToB should do the trick. If you are wanting to keep it to core books, then build a simple cleric focused on fighting. Fighting clerics beat base fighting classes almost every time.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-24, 01:50 PM
You provoke an attack of opportunity and he'll make mincemeat o' you, you know. And you have to win a grapple, have a lenient DM, and even then, evasion should still apply.

OOTS_Rules.
2007-12-24, 01:53 PM
You provoke an attack of opportunity and he'll make mincemeat o' you, you know. And you have to win a grapple, have a lenient DM, and even then, evasion should still apply.

A: Greater Invisibility should deny it.

B: Greater Invisibility helps.

C: Evasion probably shouldn't apply to your internal organs until you were epic-level. Like an epic skill.

Ganurath
2007-12-24, 01:53 PM
For fighting a Barbarian on his own terms:

1-5 Human Barbarian: Invest in high Charisma, and make sure your Int is high enough so you can get 4 skill points per level at minimum. Go with Intimidate, Hide, Move Silently, and Concentration for skills, whatever if you get more than 4 per level. By fifth level you'll have Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, and the qualifications for Avenging Executioner.
6-10 Avenging Executioner: Continue investing skills as you will, maxing out Intimidate, Move Silently, and Hide. At sixth level you're taking Improved Sunder, and at 9th you take Combat Brute.
11+ Ghost-Faced Killer: At 12th level you take Shock Trooper. After that, it doesn't really matter. Perhaps something to help you ensure initiative so you can get two rounds of sudden strikes and frightful blows in. Of course, if you come to the combat with a hostage that you coup de grace within 30 feet of the barbarian, that won't matter as he'll be scared enough by Bloody Murder that Dread Blade lets you go wild for a good, long time. Perhaps Extend Rage for flavor?

lord_khaine
2007-12-24, 01:55 PM
on the other hand there isnt anything that lets you shove a fireball down someones throat either so it doesnt matter if evasion wont work.

graymachine
2007-12-24, 01:55 PM
Alternatively, you could build a Conjurer into Alienist. Summoning large+ things that want hugs, then sprout tentacles leads to all sorts of humiliating defeats.

Fuzzy_Juan
2007-12-24, 01:58 PM
If you wanna beat him at his own game...permanent enlarge, feats up through knockdown, 'large and in charge', use two handed play to just beat the crap out of him.

If you think you have the skills to do it, sunder his main weapon. With the knockdown/large and in charge build, any time you get an attack of oppertunity you pretty much knock them down and shove them back 5'...it is much fun. Obviously you know his character as well, so make sure you have contingencies for his oddball effects...

in addition to the 'normal' combat buffs(strength, freedom of movement, other stuff), make sure you also get yoursef fireshield somehow (probably the cold varient). I would also recommend 1 level of assasin if you can swing it and use poison...a healthy dose of some strong stuff...always good for a laugh.

OOTS_Rules.
2007-12-24, 01:58 PM
on the other hand there isnt anything that lets you shove a fireball down someones throat either so it doesnt matter if evasion wont work.

An attack roll against his mouth might work, but with a high AC.

Crow
2007-12-24, 01:59 PM
This guy is so far over WBL that he has items to counter most of the "easy" ways that casters can screw him. Also, his gear is way too good. Even a highly optimized barb (though he could probably win) isn't going to to give me quite the effect I need. Not with 760,000gp.

When I said he was way over WBL, we're talking millions of gp. This is why I've decided that I need a wizard. The class is pretty well decided, but the questions I asked near the end of the post are the ones I'm looking for help with (proficiencies, gear, maybe a spel for armor). I wish I could provide a list of this guy's gear, but I don't keep the character, the other DM has his sheet so I won't be seeing it until we next meet.

Though that Ghost-faced Killer build looks fun. I may make two characters on this. One with "Magic", and then the Ghost-Face.

This isn't a "measuring" contest. It's in good spirits, but I still want to annihilate him.

Darrin
2007-12-24, 01:59 PM
Is there a way to get armor proficiencies in there so i can squeeze in a level of spellsword? This would allow me to avoid having to shell out for a twilight enchantment. I believe the Militia feat I will be taking only gives proficiency in martial weapons. Is this correct?

Otherworldly from Player's Guide to Faerun makes you an Outsider, which gives you proficiency with all martial weapons. Also makes you eligible for Alter Self cheese (Dwarven Ancestor, anyone?). Armor proficiency is a little trickier.

If you want to one-shot him... BassetKing's infinite damage Crusader weighs in around ECL 12, although that probably wouldn't be all that satisfying.

Fixer
2007-12-24, 02:00 PM
I built a dwarven warblade you could use (Besturn Hammerstorm in the signature). I didn't equip him to that high of a level but the biggest items you'd want to get is an anti-magic field to neuter his magical equipment. If not, perhaps a few custom items that are Disjunction on a ranged touch attack (disposable items).

From your description you want to first take his character's gear out of the picture. The build I created was primarily defensive but at higher levels dealing massive damage (and hoping for crits when dealing all that damage). His strategy is to use Stone Power as often as possible to gain temp HP per round to act as pseudo damage resistance and otherwise strike as often as possible. He doesn't require magical gear (adamantine full plate and adamantine greataxe are death in his hands).

Or you could take the sunder route.

OOTS_Rules.
2007-12-24, 02:01 PM
This guy is so far over WBL that he has items to counter most of the "easy" ways that casters can screw him. Also, his gear is way too good. Even a highly optimized barb (though he could probably win) isn't going to to give me quite the effect I need. Not with 760,000gp.

When I said he was way over WBL, we're talking millions of gp. This is why I've decided that I need a wizard. The class is pretty well decided, but the questions I asked near the end of the post are the ones I'm looking for help with (proficiencies, gear, maybe a spel for armor). I wish I could provide a list of this guy's gear, but I don't keep the character, the other DM has his sheet so I won't be seeing it until we next meet.

This isn't a "measuring" contest. It's in good spirits, but I still want to annihilate him.

Polymorph Any Object, anyone? Just like CLEESH in KoL. Turn him into a frog and stomp him into the dust.

Fixer
2007-12-24, 02:03 PM
It would really help if we knew WHAT that +16 armor of his actually did. If it is Major Spell Resistance this could be a lot more difficult.

graymachine
2007-12-24, 02:04 PM
This guy is so far over WBL that he has items to counter most of the "easy" ways that casters can screw him. Also, his gear is way too good. Even a highly optimized barb (though he could probably win) isn't going to to give me quite the effect I need. Not with 760,000gp.

When I said he was way over WBL, we're talking millions of gp. This is why I've decided that I need a wizard. The class is pretty well decided, but the questions I asked near the end of the post are the ones I'm looking for help with (proficiencies, gear, maybe a spel for armor). I wish I could provide a list of this guy's gear, but I don't keep the character, the other DM has his sheet so I won't be seeing it until we next meet.

Though that Ghost-faced Killer build looks fun. I may make two characters on this. One with "Magic", and then the Ghost-Face.

This isn't a "measuring" contest. It's in good spirits, but I still want to annihilate him.

Well, since you've said his build is weak, some info is needed on his equipment for a solid win; you're looking to beat his equipment, not him. Even some general outlines would be helpful. He isn't packing artifact, for example, is he?

JackMage666
2007-12-24, 02:04 PM
I don't know if it's been mention yet, but Barbarians don't get evasion, they get Uncanny Dodge/Improved. So all your Reflex save spells are still in play. However, he might have it from a Ring of Evasion.

Also, you can't sunder armor on a character, as it says in the PHB.

Disjunction still works.. Permanently... Don't kill him, just disjunction his armor, and let him live. Paralyze him, and leave, if possible.

Fenix_of_Doom
2007-12-24, 02:07 PM
Didn't barbs get evasion? That stops that trick.

Besides that playing a rust monster is a bit of a doubtful move, a barbarian definitely does not get evasion, he gets uncanny doge, the ranger gets evasion, a rogue gets both. So the tactic would work, but I think you should go for batman wizard, I can fly faster then you tactics.
Are his saves horribly over the top too?

Edit agg, ninja'd on the evasion thing.

JackMage666
2007-12-24, 02:10 PM
Also, as a warning, don't try to cast Polymorph any Object on his armor. It won't work, as PAO doesn't work on magical objects (says so in the spell description.)

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-24, 02:12 PM
Easy way to kill him: Solid fog him, and cast a spell that stops teleportation. Proceed to throw no save spells.

Funkyodor
2007-12-24, 02:18 PM
Easy way to kill him: Solid fog him, and cast a spell that stops teleportation. Proceed to throw no save spells.

Unless he has a ring of free action which would allow him to ignore solid fog.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-24, 02:20 PM
You then break out the big guns. Forcecage, Walls of X, and then plant an energy substitutioned soniced fog spell.

Douglas
2007-12-24, 02:24 PM
Are there any spells that I can use to get the +9 armor bonus I would get from the +5 mithral chain, and thus avoid that expense altogether?
Greater Luminous Armor from the Book of Exalted Deeds. 4th level, you take a little strength damage when the duration runs out, but it's +8 base, abjuration so Abjurant Champion pushes that up to +13, and melee attacks against you take a -4 penalty so it's effectively +17 vs melee.

Danzaver
2007-12-24, 02:24 PM
Breastplate huh? Reckon he could get it off before he drowned?

Wall of [whatever] x4, create water.

It's the simplest results that are the most humiliating, rather than giving him the satisfaction of creating this massive character and give him the possibility that he might actually win.

However, I recommend an arcane archer with a longbow of extra range and a heap of scrolls of true shot, or whatever it is called.

Shoot him from over a 1000 feet away at your regular attack bonus, through cover if necessary. Whenever he tried to sleep. A few days of that and he will top himself off.

It's kind of a moot point though, a barbarian is always going to be better at some things than others, and worse than some. I guess if you teach him that at least, you will have succeeded, but I find that pride is not really condusive to learning lessons.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-24, 02:29 PM
That's a humilliating combo, but since Crow wants to kill him en melee too. let's expand.

First turn, Phantom steed, make sure you can rapid mount the thing, and get moving.

Second, cast whatever spell that stops teleporting. This way, you screw his number 1 way of saving himself.

Third, you cast whirling blades, and start pummeling.

Fourth, Wraithstrike.

Fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth, walls of X, preferably prismatics.

Ninth, tenth, etc., use a decanter of endless water to fill the thing.

Turn X, cast a final wall, and let him drown, all the time, the whirling blades might have done some damage. Humilliating as hell.

Danzaver
2007-12-24, 02:39 PM
That's a humilliating combo, but since Crow wants to kill him en melee too. let's expand.

First turn, Phantom steed, make sure you can rapid mount the thing, and get moving.

Second, cast whatever spell that stops teleporting. This way, you screw his number 1 way of saving himself.

Third, you cast whirling blades, and start pummeling.

Fourth, Wraithstrike.

Fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth, walls of X, preferably prismatics.

Ninth, tenth, etc., use a decanter of endless water to fill the thing.

Turn X, cast a final wall, and let him drown, all the time, the whirling blades might have done some damage. Humilliating as hell.

Haste of course, and instant spells. In ten rounds a barbarian could do a LOT of damage. Some wall spells actually allow you to create your walls in boxes, which save on time.

The trouble with my idea is that it relies on one trick, which if overcome... a barbarian can keep going and going. A spellcaster can't - so you have to be super careful.

I can't reccommend beating him in melee. If it ever gets to a point where you are trying to out-damage-deal him, you're doing it wrong. I reckon a war of attrition is the way to go.

But... if you want to out-melee him... you're probably better with a pure melee class. Probably even another barbarian. But melee is way too random. He may want it enough that he rolls an instant kill critical in the first round. You need a plan that relies on dice as little as possible.

Danzaver
2007-12-24, 02:42 PM
Ooo ooo oo I have it.

Kobolds.

Lots of kobolds.

Use the mob-up rules from dragon mountain, converted to 3rd ed. I can post them here if you need them.

Absolutely nothing can stand up to a hundred kobolds jumping on your head.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-24, 02:45 PM
Which is the reason you use Whirling blades. You don't attack up close. And know that I think of it, if you get the feats, you could use shocktrooper cheese and charge, quicken and let it rip.

Of course, if you want to cheat outright, get Rapid Metamagic, Phantom steed, X spell that locks you in place, use a rod of quickening and cast an energy substituted fog or sphere, and Forcecage.

Fhaolan
2007-12-24, 03:02 PM
This guy is so far over WBL that he has items to counter most of the "easy" ways that casters can screw him. Also, his gear is way too good. Even a highly optimized barb (though he could probably win) isn't going to to give me quite the effect I need. Not with 760,000gp.

When I said he was way over WBL, we're talking millions of gp.

Ah. Right. I hadn't realized exactly how far beyond WBL you were meaning. Yikes.

Definately need a Disjunction, or Anti-Magic Fields. Or both....

Is there some way in RAW to create Disjunction and Anti-Magic Field mines? Basically portable traps... Ah. 20th level Barbarian. Nevermind.

Yeah, you're down to spellcasters. Ah well.

RandomFellow
2007-12-24, 03:18 PM
Warlock 20
Scroll of Foresight
Scroll of Timestop
Scroll of Forcecage
Scroll of Wall of Iron x6
Decanter of Endless Water

UMD Mod of +20 (not hard)

The Glyphstone
2007-12-24, 03:25 PM
Gnome Wizard 10/Fatespinner 5/Archmage 5.

Get him in an AMF to shut off his items. Then, proceed to use Invoke Magic to hit him with a Phantasmal Killer. He gets his base saves plus his base stat modifiers alone, no items - he'll likely fail the Will save to disbelieve, then you dump all five points of Spin into the Fortitude save, give him a -10 penalty, and make him re-roll it if he succeeds. 1 dead barbarian.

Fixer
2007-12-24, 03:25 PM
The problem with Wall of Iron is the hardness 10 and 30hp per inch (5 inches at level 20). A high level barbarian will go through that like paper with decent weaponry, which we will assume he has. An adamantine battleaxe will ignore the hardness and dealing 150 damage isn't hard for a barb.

Wall of Force, however, might be more appropriate.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-24, 03:26 PM
If we go with wall of force, let's go monkey and forcecage.

PnP Fan
2007-12-24, 03:28 PM
If you really want to beat him at his own game, try not calling in the collective intelligence on the forum, build the character you think ought to beat him, and duke it out. Then you can come to the forum and brag about how you made a custom high level character designed to humiliate your friend (?) in 1 on 1 combat with his character that he worked at from level 1. You are the one, after all, who challenged this guy, and who estimated that his character isn't all that great, you ought to be able to back up your own words.

Then, once you're finished comparing the size of your character sheets, play the game for fun and get over it. Assuming your friend isn't so annoyed with you that he still wants to play games with you. Have fun, tough guy.

Crow
2007-12-24, 03:46 PM
If you really want to beat him at his own game, try not calling in the collective intelligence on the forum, build the character you think ought to beat him, and duke it out. Then you can come to the forum and brag about how you made a custom high level character designed to humiliate your friend (?) in 1 on 1 combat with his character that he worked at from level 1. You are the one, after all, who challenged this guy, and who estimated that his character isn't all that great, you ought to be able to back up your own words.

Then, once you're finished comparing the size of your character sheets, play the game for fun and get over it. Assuming your friend isn't so annoyed with you that he still wants to play games with you. Have fun, tough guy.

Thanks for that enlightening post, troll.

I am not looking for builds. I had three questions which I asked because I was looking for information that I may have missed. If he can use forums (which he does, but I didn't feel it was relevant until now), why shouldn't I do the same if I have 3 small questions?


I had a few questions;

I'm looking at a wiz5/AbChamp5/EldKnt10.

Is there a way to get armor proficiencies in there so i can squeeze in a level of spellsword? This would allow me to avoid having to shell out for a twilight enchantment. I believe the Militia feat I will be taking only gives proficiency in martial weapons. Is this correct?

Are there any spells that I can use to get the +9 armor bonus I would get from the +5 mithral chain, and thus avoid that expense altogether?

Are there any useful PrC's that a wizard can get into at or before ECL5? Just for that extra little punch...

I have a lot of books, which I am away from at this time. Thank you to everyone who has put forth suggestions and info. I am going to point my friend to this thread when i next see him so he can check it out too. This challenge is in good spirits.

Thank you especially, Pnp Fan, for your stunning insight. Imagine all this time, my friends and I were playing D&D incorrectly! Thanks for setting me straight.

Shovah
2007-12-24, 08:33 PM
What is the Barbarians intelligence like? A Maze spell could keep him occupied for a little while.
How about using PoA to turn the air around him into something such as rock or metal - he can't break it if he can't move, right? How long can that guy hold his breath?

Just tossing some ideas around.

Shraik
2007-12-24, 09:55 PM
Antimagic Field, Sanctuary, Chill metal, Sunder, Wall of forcex4, shape spell. You win. Antimagic field nullify magic items, Sanctuary makes will save to attack(Barbarians), Chill his +15 armor, sunder it, then trap him in a cube of force, Spell shape to crush him to death.

Or polymorph him into a chair.

Kaelik
2007-12-25, 12:25 AM
Actually. Just to be a super jerk. Build a Barbarian 20 with a better build then him. Use WBL on Inherent bonuses to Str/Dex/Con. Then buy an Anti-Magic Field Torc.

Step 2) Win.

leperkhaun
2007-12-25, 02:18 AM
ray of enfeblement, then str damage posin darts until he collapses. Then take his head off with his own weapon.

The cheesy forcecage + cloud kill

Gate in a half dozen balors.

as someone else mentioned Invis magic missle.

But if you really want to show him his items are a crutch.... Disjunction him a time or two.

actually.......... try to find a monk build that could beat him. Or you could try that level 20 save or die bard

purple gelatinous cube o' Doom
2007-12-25, 02:36 AM
Fighter/Barbarian/Frenzied Berzerker in some combination should do the trick. I once had a very good build with this character. being able to Rage and Frenzy at the same time is great. But I believe for it to be the most effective, you need all 10 levels of FB so you've got deathless frenzy.

ghost_warlock
2007-12-25, 02:46 AM
Stop me if I'm wrong, but if you really want to prove that his items are the crutch that holds him up, why is this fight proceeding with the gear? If he wanted to really prove his character's minerals, this fight would be going off with nonmagical gear! If he's insisting on you having to beat his gear with a build, he's really just admitting that you're right.

Yami
2007-12-25, 06:22 AM
I'd Actually want to try a Wizard/Reapling Mauler build. Disjunction him and then snap his neck in grapple (with 2 Million+ in wealth I'm sure he has freedom of movement on.)

Heck, anti-magic field, grapple would be great.

But you want to do it your way, which is fine. I'd suggest meta-magiked up orbs of force. Not much you can do against that.

Edit: Not that I endorse this sort of behavior, but when your players start trying to backstab eachother with Zweihanders the moment the game starts to slow down, you get used to this sort of thing.

weenie
2007-12-25, 09:40 AM
As a barbarian he's probably going to try to kill you with a sharp piece of metal, so ironguard(SC) should somewhat frustrate him.

ronnyfire
2007-12-25, 02:04 PM
can i say, if your goin gish

{table]level | class 1 | class 2
1|warblade|half ogre
2| "| "
3| "|skill rogue
4| "| "
5| "|fighter
6|blood storm blade|warblade
7| "| "
8| "|hulking hurler
9| "| "
10| "| "[/table]
get the feats that are prerequisites of course, and get neraph throw + natural heavyweight.

max out str and buy a REALLY HEAVY ROCK

your medium weight load worth of rock basically

far throw is cool too

Kaelik
2007-12-25, 02:15 PM
can i say, if your goin gish

{table]level | class 1 | class 2
1|warblade|half ogre
2| "| "
3| "|skill rogue
4| "| "
5| "|fighter
6|blood storm blade|warblade
7| "| "
8| "|hulking hurler
9| "| "
10| "| "[/table]
get the feats that are prerequisites of course, and get neraph throw + natural heavyweight.

max out str and buy a REALLY HEAVY ROCK

your medium weight load worth of rock basically

far throw is cool too

Do you mean gestalt? That's not a gish at all. Gish requires spellcasting.

Copacetic
2007-12-25, 02:20 PM
Easy. Go full wizard, and buy a scroll of flesh to Stone. If you really want to humilatiate him buy a bunch of scrolls and use in this order.

Flesh to Stone
Stone to mud
Mud to Stone
Stone to flesh.

Congradulatios, you turned the barbarian into a puddle of skin and organs. Sell his magic items on eBay and buy yourself a new staff.

graymachine
2007-12-25, 06:12 PM
Crow, are you going to post a result of this fight after it's over and done? I think most people on here will at least be interested in the outcome.

Crow
2007-12-26, 01:25 AM
Crow, are you going to post a result of this fight after it's over and done? I think most people on here will at least be interested in the outcome.

I plan on it. Got a few days to go though.

Talic
2007-12-26, 01:50 AM
Dwarf:
Fighter 5, Deepwarden 2, Finish out with High HP fighter type classes. Power attack progression.

Start with a 20 Con, Dwarven Mountain Plate (+5), Tower Shield (+5), Defending spikes (+5), Ring of Protection(+5), Con boosting item (+6), wishes (con +4), All level boosts to Con. XXX of natural armor +5. At level 16, Con is 34 (38 if raging, go ahead, take a level of barbarian), for a +12(+14) bonus to AC, on top of the +10 for armor, +5 Natural Armor, +4 for Shield, and +20 for other magical defenses. Total AC clocks in at 61. Tell him to break out his lucky D20, and have fun wailing on him.

There are ways to boost it higher, I just aren't thinking of them right now. That said, using shock trooper for -16 to AC and still having AC 45 is pretty bad.

Idea Man
2007-12-26, 02:25 AM
Cruel victory: Invest a large portion of your wealth-by-level in scrolls of summon monster 9 (higher BAB monsters needed). Cast while greater invisible/flying (flying types preferable, go for the d4+1 variety). Polymorph summoned creatures into stirges. Enjoy the show.

Very cruel victory: Create a sundering-focused barbarian/frenzied berserker. Break coolest items in alphabetical order (+5 viscious adamantine two-handed weapon). Enjoy tears.

I apologize for the second half, but I don't have time at the moment to design this build in more detail. Darn sleep. Need a cure for that.

Demented
2007-12-26, 02:33 AM
The problem with Wall of Iron is the hardness 10 and 30hp per inch (5 inches at level 20). A high level barbarian will go through that like paper with decent weaponry, which we will assume he has. An adamantine battleaxe will ignore the hardness and dealing 150 damage isn't hard for a barb.

Wall of Force, however, might be more appropriate.

But does he know that?
The potential for torment and post-battle humiliation is excellent.

Shadowdweller
2007-12-26, 03:13 AM
I am of the opinion that spells are much more humiliating than beat-downs. Depending on what manner of defensive equipment he has you should be able to pull it off with a much lower level caster for that added bit of shame. Some classic examples include:

* Have an Evil caster Gate in a Pit Fiend (or other such nasty) for repeated Blasphemy. Send in rat familiar to bite him to death or whatever minimum is capable of penetrating his DR. (I can't remember if errata nixed this)

* Reverse Gravity to trap a non-flying barbarian in the air, then toss low-level damage spells (magic missiles are ideal). Alternately, straight Enervation is pretty amusing as well. Add Wind Wall or Dimensional Anchor/Lock if necessary.

* Lasting area damage effect such as Acid Fog or Incendiary cloud, then some trapping spell such as Otiluke's Resilient or Telekinetic sphere, Forcecage, etc.

Talic
2007-12-26, 03:26 AM
I am of the opinion that spells are much more humiliating than beat-downs. Depending on what manner of defensive equipment he has you should be able to pull it off with a much lower level caster for that added bit of shame. Some classic examples include:

* Have an Evil caster Gate in a Pit Fiend (or other such nasty) for repeated Blasphemy. Send in rat familiar to bite him to death or whatever minimum is capable of penetrating his DR. (I can't remember if errata nixed this)

* Reverse Gravity to trap a non-flying barbarian in the air, then toss low-level damage spells (magic missiles are ideal). Alternately, straight Enervation is pretty amusing as well. Add Wind Wall or Dimensional Anchor/Lock if necessary.

* Lasting area damage effect such as Acid Fog or Incendiary cloud, then some trapping spell such as Otiluke's Resilient or Telekinetic sphere, Forcecage, etc.

Spells reinforce the concept that magic is stronger than melee. It's not all that difficult to stop most melee types with magic.

However, several magic items can make a caster's day a living nightmare. Hitting things with a stick almost always works.

The most humiliating thing you can do in this instance is let his character open up as hard and fast as he can... And bounce off. Not just beat his character, but make it irrelevant. Now, with a 65 AC, and a +12 Con modifier, at level 16, assuming 13d10, 1d12, 2d8, 1st 2 levels max, all following levels 75% (per DMG, character creation after 1st level), you get:
10+10+88(levels 3-13 of d10)+12(2d8)+8(1d12)+192(Con modifier)... Or 300 HP. Now we have a character with 300 hp, Needs-a-nat-20-to-hit... Heck, there's cash left over, throw in Greater Fortification to negate crits, and you've got a tank that'll shrug off most anything that he can do. If you want to go the Paladin/Dwarven Defender route instead, you can get a bit more AC and healing, at the expense of feats.

Remember, the magic builds and tactics you present are useful against ALL fighters. The goal is to prove that this fighter build is bad. For that, you have to take him on his own terms.

Wordmiser
2007-12-26, 03:38 AM
Wouldn't a Frenzied Berserker build better illustrate your point? Otherwise, it's just a caster vs. noncaster argument and your buddy's build-making won't be important in the least.

Or use a Bard/Warblade or Bard/Sublime Chord. Bards get bad press so beating him with one of those would probably hurt a lot more than beating him with a Wizard.

But to address the actual topic:

If you're jumping up to 20th level, you only need CL 17; there's no reason to avoid delaying your caster progression when you're skipping to the end anyway. You can afford further dipping.

Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Spellsword 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 3 will work as well as anything else as it provides four attacks, 9th level spells, full AC levels and some spell channeling.

Talic
2007-12-26, 03:44 AM
Frenzied Berserker build too vulnerable to counterattack. Follow the ethos of the mage with a melee type.

Step 1: It's impossible for you to effectively hurt me.
Step 2: ????*
Step 3: Profit!


* ???? = Brain him with a stick for fighters, stick him in the brain with magic for wizards.

Tequila Sunrise
2007-12-26, 03:52 AM
My buddy has a level 20 barbarian who is way over WBL due to the other DM he plays with...

Stop. Take a deep breath. Think. Now tell me what is wrong with this statement.

Nowhere Girl
2007-12-26, 06:01 AM
Frenzied Berserker build too vulnerable to counterattack. Follow the ethos of the mage with a melee type.

Step 1: It's impossible for you to effectively hurt me.
Step 2: ????*
Step 3: Profit!


* ???? = Brain him with a stick for fighters, stick him in the brain with magic for wizards.

If that's the route you want to go, a dervish build using a two-handed weapon might actually serve better. All that extra movement means you can pop in, pop him with a full attack, and then dance completely out of range and even hop up onto terrain features to ruin charges.

It's not as sudden and overwhelming as an ubercharger, but it's annoying and effective and can make other meleers, including uberchargers (and trippers, whose tripping is rendered irrelevant by Tumble as a class skill and full moves combined with full attacks), cry. Throw in Elusive Target if he has Power Attack, and you're golden.

Or if you want to be really annoying and can use the ToB, make a tripper who has the Devoted Spirit 3rd-level stance Thicket of Blades, which makes all movement, including 5-foot steps, provoke AoOs. Be sure to dip into exotic weapon master to enhance your spiked chain's tripping by another +2 with Exotic Trip. Otherwise, just copy a classic tripper build. Then sit back and enjoy the fun.

But to be honest, the poster who was saying you should do this yourself has a point: if your friend's character really isn't that great, and that's your honest assessment, you ought to know why already and be able to demonstrate it. What do you need us for?

Talic
2007-12-26, 06:16 AM
Elusive target works for the dwarf build too... Which is good, cause if you need a 20 to hit without power attack, you might as well swing for the fences, right?

As for the Dervish, I believe Dervish Dance only works when using a weapon in each hand? Two handed attack might not work there.

Still, I view the AC cow as a viable 1 on 1 anti fighter strategy. You don't need to worry overmuch about most attacks of opportunity, you're immune to crits, and against most builds, you're pretty good. Heck, even that touch AC is either 32 or 42 (can't remember if armor and shield bonuses add to touch AC, I know the deflection from the Ring, Con to AC, and Defense from the armor spikes of defense add to it, heck, throw in dodge for 33 or 43), which makes even the trip build dicey, considering the dwarf is stable... But if that's an issue, get spring attack, and avoid AoO's altogether. Of course, the ideal with this build is to get to 5' and trade full attacks... But few will continue with THAT after a round or so. I usually allow my opponent to go first with this build, so that he can charge me, then bounce off... Then I get a full Shock Trooper attack... That usually inspires them to try again, and usually out of 5-7 attacks, they'll land 1-2. Which will not get power attack, or crits. And thus will barely scratch the surface of all the HP. Then there's the second full attack to the damage cow, which usually lays them near death... Especially if you're using a two handed weapon with the Tower Shield Animated.

Nowhere Girl
2007-12-26, 06:49 AM
As for the Dervish, I believe Dervish Dance only works when using a weapon in each hand? Two handed attack might not work there.

No.

Dervishes cannot use shields while dancing, and they can't wear any armor heavier than light. The weapon or weapons they use must be slashing, as well, but ... that's it.

You could use a halberd (with Spinning Halberd Style?), a bastard sword (with Uncanny Blow from an exotic weapon master dip for twice your Strength to damage rather than 1.5 times), a brilliant energy whip (whips are slashing weapons) ... whatever.

Although dervishes are presented as being "finesse over brawn" characters, there's actually nothing about their mechanics that prevents you from making a Strength-focused dervish.

Alternatively, you could go swordsage/dervish, pick up Shadow Blade and Weapon Finesse, go with daggers instead (daggers are slashing weapons), and apply your Dexterity to attack, damage, AC and initiative all at once. Since you're moving at least 10 feet every round, you can constantly maintain a miss chance with just a level 1 stance, although with your myriad movement options, if you're clever and careful, you should be able to keep the barbarian from ever having a chance at a full attack (unless he has a pounce ability), and you might even prevent him from ever actually being able to attack you at all.

It would, in fact, be especially humiliating to defeat the big, brawny barbarian with a wiry little stick of a fighter who's only using a single dagger. And I'm pretty sure I could make a build that would do it fairly easily.

Talic
2007-12-26, 07:02 AM
No.

Dervishes cannot use shields while dancing, and they can't wear any armor heavier than light. The weapon or weapons they use must be slashing, as well, but ... that's it.

You could use a halberd (with Spinning Halberd Style?), a bastard sword (with Uncanny Blow from an exotic weapon master dip for twice your Strength to damage rather than 1.5 times), a brilliant energy whip (whips are slashing weapons) ... whatever.

Although dervishes are presented as being "finesse over brawn" characters, there's actually nothing about their mechanics that prevents you from making a Strength-focused dervish.

Alternatively, you could go swordsage/dervish, pick up Shadow Blade and Weapon Finesse, go with daggers instead (daggers are slashing weapons), and apply your Dexterity to attack, damage, AC and initiative all at once. Since you're moving at least 10 feet every round, you can constantly maintain a miss chance with just a level 1 stance, although with your myriad movement options, if you're clever and careful, you should be able to keep the barbarian from ever having a chance at a full attack (unless he has a pounce ability), and you might even prevent him from ever actually being able to attack you at all.

It would, in fact, be especially humiliating to defeat the big, brawny barbarian with a wiry little stick of a fighter who's only using a single dagger. And I'm pretty sure I could make a build that would do it fairly easily.


Yeah, that's another good possibility. However, when someone says that they have millions of GP worth of items, I get a bit wary... Even that one hit could be a doozy, and if the barbarian has brutal throw, nothing says he can't pelt with javelins from a distance first, and stay back for a bit... Which is why I like the tower shield, for total cover and the like.

MammonAzrael
2007-12-26, 07:28 AM
Just so I'm clear, the point is to prove you think that you're friend's Barbarian build is poor, correct?

In that case, it's pointless to beat him with a Magic-user who could just as easily beat effective builds.

You say that his equipment is a crutch. If he believes otherwise, then you should fight his Barbarian without the benefit of his overpowered equipment, and he should have no problem agreeing. No magical items, or at least the normal, +10 cap. Give him the same amount of gold you have to purchase "normal" gear. And then build a barbarian or other equivalent melee class as you believe it should be built.

Doing anything else will just prove that your character beat his, not that his build is ineffective.

Benejeseret
2007-12-26, 01:27 PM
Or make your point his point....

If he does not see the WBL as important, then agree to use the same WBl that he has.

Then play a lvl20 samurai super-decked out with insane items. Even a samurai becomes good with enough magic items...so beat him with a samurai just by gear alone.

Anyone who gets beat by a samurai must concede any argument, ever.



Even better, win initiative and round 1 stare him down (once as a move action and one as the standard action with a high charisma samurai with boost intimidation feats and items) the fear effects stack and he becomes frightened and runs away.

Anyone who runs away in terror from a samurai must concede any argument, ever.

marjan
2007-12-26, 02:07 PM
Or make your point his point....

If he does not see the WBL as important, then agree to use the same WBl that he has.

Then play a lvl20 samurai super-decked out with insane items. Even a samurai becomes good with enough magic items...so beat him with a samurai just by gear alone.

Anyone who gets beat by a samurai must concede any argument, ever.



Even better, win initiative and round 1 stare him down (once as a move action and one as the standard action with a high charisma samurai with boost intimidation feats and items) the fear effects stack and he becomes frightened and runs away.

Anyone who runs away in terror from a samurai must concede any argument, ever.

This must be the most humiliating way to do it:smallsmile:

lord of pixies
2007-12-26, 02:21 PM
2 words: Pun Pun (this is reallly going to piss him of though)

Telonius
2007-12-26, 03:01 PM
Idea ...
Beat him in melee as a Wizard. Build your Wizard like you would a Barbarian - make sure you take Power Attack, buy a Lawful weapon, good light armor, etc. Disjoin the guy. Cast Tenser's Transformation. Drink a potion of Rage. Enjoy the look on his face as he sees the puny little wizard tearing his Barbarian a new one.

Crow
2007-12-26, 05:50 PM
Once again, I have already decided on my build. Everyone that is deriding me for coming to the forums, please read my earlier posts (I had three questions. I was not asking how to beat this guy.). Anyways, he sent me a stat block (messy as it was), and I have a pretty good idea of how I am going to beat him. I figured I would post it here for you guys to see. A cookie to whoever wants to total the value of his gear. I didn't even bother.


Ephram Brown, Barbarian 10/Frenzied Berzerker 10
Ephram Brown, Male Half-Orc Bbn10/Fbe10: CR 20; Medium Humanoid (Orc); HD 10d12+90(Barbarian) , 10d12+90(Frenzied Berserker) ; hp 310; Init +9; Spd 40; AC:43 (Flatfooted:43 Touch:26); Atk +34/29/24/19 base melee, +30/25/20/15 base ranged; +39/34/29/24 (1d12+24, +5 Adamantine Greataxe); SQ: Darkvision (Ex): 60 ft.; RF: Orc Blood; AL CG; SV Fort +29, Ref +21, Will +20; STR 36, DEX 28, CON 28, INT 23, WIS 26, CHA 18.
Skills: Appraise +7, Balance +9, Bluff +5, Climb +23, Concentration +10, Control Shape +9, Craft (Alchemy) +5, Craft (Armorsmithing) +5, Craft (Basketweaving) +5, Craft (Blacksmithing) +5, Craft (Bookbinding) +5, Craft (Bowmaking) +5, Craft (Calligraphy) +5, Craft (Candlemaking) +7, Craft (Carpentry) +5, Craft (Cartography) +7, Craft (Cobbling) +5, Craft (Dreams Weave) +7, Craft (Flower Arranging) +7, Craft (Flower Arranging) +7, Craft (Gemcutting) +5, Craft (Glassmaking) +7, Craft (Landscape Gardening) +7, Craft (Leatherworking) +5, Craft (Locksmithing) +5, Craft (Metalworking) +5, Craft (Metalworking) +7, Craft (Musical Instruments) +7, Craft (Origami) +7, Craft (Painting) +5, Craft (Papermaking) +7, Craft (Poisonmaking) +7, Craft (Pottery) +5, Craft (Rune) +7, Craft (Scarring) +7, Craft (Sculpting) +5, Craft (Sculpture) +7, Craft (Shellcraft) +7, Craft (Shipmaking) +5, Craft (Stonemasonry) +5, Craft (Torture Equipment) +7, Craft (Trapmaking) +5, Craft (Weaponsmithing) +5, Craft (Weaving) +5, Craft (Winemaking) +7, Craft (Woodcrafting) +7, Diplomacy +5, Disguise +5, Escape Artist +9, Forgery +7, Gather Information +5, Heal +9, Hide +9, Intimidate +22, Jump +27, Listen +19, Literacy +1, Move Silently +9, Perform (Act) +5, Perform (Comedy) +5, Perform (Dance) +5, Perform (Keyboard Instruments) +5, Perform (Oratory) +5, Perform (Percussion) +5, Perform (Sing) +5, Perform (String Instruments) +5, Perform (Weapon Drill) +5, Perform (Wind Instruments) +5, Ride +10, Search +12, Sense Motive +9, Spot +9, Survival +24, Swim +22, Use Rope +10.

Feats: Armor Proficiency: light, Armor Proficiency: medium, Cleave, Destructive Rage, Diehard, Improved Bull Rush, Intimidating Rage, Leap Attack, Power Attack, Shield Proficiency, Shock Trooper, Simple Weapon Proficiency.
Possessions:
Weapons: +5 Adamantine Greataxe: Ghost Touch, Keen, Speed, Vorpal (NaN gp).
Armor: +5 Mithral Breastplate: Acid Resistance, Greater, Cold Resistance, Greater, Electricity Resistance, Greater, Fire Resistance, Greater, Spell Resistance (SR19), Ghost Touch, Invulnerability (NaN gp).
Shields: +5 Shield, heavy steel: Animated, Reflecting (NaN gp).
Magic: Wondrous: Belt of Magnificence (200,000 gp); Wondrous: Manual of Bodily Health +5 (137,500 gp); Wondrous: Manual of Gainful Exercise +5 (137,500 gp); Wondrous: Manual of Quickness of Action +5 (137,500 gp); Wondrous: Tome of Clear Thought +5 (137,500 gp); Wondrous: Tome of Leadership and Influence +5 (137,500 gp); Wondrous: Tome of Understanding +5 (137,500 gp); Wondrous: Amulet of Natural Armor +5 (50,000 gp); Wondrous: Bag of Holding, type IV (10,000 gp); Wondrous: Boots, Winged (16,000 gp); Wondrous: Cloak of Resistance +5 (25,000 gp); Wondrous: Crystal ball with True Seeing (80,000 gp); Wondrous: Cube of Force (62,000 gp); Wondrous: Daern`s Instant Fortress (55,000 gp); Wondrous: Decanter of Endless Water (9,000 gp); Wondrous: Efreeti Bottle (145,000 gp); Wondrous: Figurine of Wondrous Power, Bronze Griffon (10,000 gp); Wondrous: Gloves of Arrow Snaring (4,000 gp); Wondrous: Helm of Teleportation (73,500 gp); Wondrous: Heward`s Handy Haversack (2,000 gp); Wondrous: Horn of Blasting, Greater (70,000 gp); Wondrous: Horn of Valhalla (50,000 gp); Wondrous: Ioun Stone, Clear [Spindle] (4,000 gp); Wondrous: Ioun Stone, Dusty Rose [Prism] (5,000 gp); Wondrous: Ioun Stone, Iridescent [Spindle] (18,000 gp); Wondrous: Ioun Stone, Lavendar and Green [Ellipsoid] (40,000 gp); Wondrous: Ioun Stone, Pale Green [Prism] (30,000 gp); Wondrous: Lens of Detection (3,500 gp); Wondrous: Murlynd`s Spoon (5,400 gp); Wondrous: Quaal`s Feather Token, Swan Boat (450 gp); Wondrous: Quaal`s Feather Token, Fan (200 gp); Wondrous: Universal Solvent (50 gp); Rod: Cancellation (11,000 gp); Rod: Absorption (50,000 gp); Rod: Negation (37,000 gp); Rod: Rulership (60,000 gp); Ring: Protection +5 (50,000 gp); Ring: Freedom of Movement (40,000 gp).

Treguard
2007-12-26, 06:26 PM
I can imagine the character looking like a wandering magical junkpile. All the better for a disjunction, then. :smallamused:

Seriously though, does can he keep track of it all in combat?

edit: craft (flower arranging) & craft (torture equipment)?! Oh man this guy is hilarious. :smallbiggrin:

Demented
2007-12-26, 07:03 PM
Craft (Basketweaving)
Bwahahaha!

Flower Arranging is listed twice. :p

If you total the weight and give him a little feebling, y'think he'd crumple?

Treguard
2007-12-26, 07:23 PM
To an orc, flower arranging is serious business.

Fuzzy_Juan
2007-12-26, 07:25 PM
wow...that is some crazy crap...

Everything is in the haver handysack...pulling it out would be impossible in an antimagic field...so, enchant a pebble with antimagic, then stick it in a vat of soverign glue...you should be able to hit a touch AC...stick it to him...then procede to pound away from range and giggle with glee...his AC would drop with the AM field, and then he would just be a sitting duck for arrows.

I am thinking that unless you can be assured that a disjunction wil be stronger than his will save, you might be better off just using antimagic.

Treguard
2007-12-26, 07:45 PM
Wouldn't it stick to his fingers though? :smallconfused:

Animefunkmaster
2007-12-26, 07:47 PM
I am in agreement with the following ideas that have already been raised.

Problems outside of the game should not be settled with in game grudge matches. Talking out your problems is better. Deciding to NOT play dnd with him (until the problem is resolved) would probably be more effective.

Since you have decided on the grudge match, using forums instead of your own knowledge seems to sully any victory... because... you know... you didn't do it yourself.

with that said:

I would also like to second the fly, invisibility, acid fog. You could always be an antimagic warrior, AoO tripper, or charger.

Druid 10 should also do it, + ion stone and karma beads. Control wind up a tornado (see wind effects in the srd. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/weather.htm#tableWindEffects))

Crow
2007-12-26, 07:52 PM
I am in agreement with the following ideas that have already been raised.

Problems outside of the game should not be settled with in game grudge matches. Talking out your problems is better. Deciding to NOT play dnd with him (until the problem is resolved) would probably be more effective.

Since you have decided on the grudge match, using forums instead of your own knowledge seems to sully any victory... because... you know... you didn't do it yourself.

with that said:

I would also like to second the fly, invisibility, acid fog. You could always be an antimagic warrior, AoO tripper, or charger.

Druid 10 should also do it, + ion stone and karma beads. Control wind up a tornado (see wind effects in the srd. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/weather.htm#tableWindEffects))

I will repeat myself again. This "grudge match" is a friendly competition in good spirits. I'm not looking for builds or anything like that. I had three questions, which were answered. I thank those who answered, but please read the entire post before you go making assumptions about how our group plays or should play. There isn't a "player problem" that needs solving. We are friends, and this is what we decided to do. There is no gaming group in jeopardy here. I had three questions to ask.

Thank you to all the Dr. Phils out there, but no thanks.

Animefunkmaster
2007-12-26, 08:11 PM
(This was an edit, but my internet crapped out)

Since you aren't asking how to defeat him, I must have misinterpreted it.

Level of fighter or dragon slayer (not worth it) grants armor and weapon prof. Greater Luminous Armor grants a +8 armor to AC (its Abjuration, so +5 for abjurant champion, it is also sanctified 1d3 str damage).

There are a few PrCs that a wizard can get into before and at 5, but they usually involve cheese.

Try the following: Fighter1/Wizard5/SpellSword1/Abjurant Champion5/Knights Phantom 8.

Mithril Breastplate can be obtained by Knight's Phantom levels
Mithril/Githcraft Shields can be used with the 10% ASF from spell sword.

Edit: there is no reason to PrC if you don't have to, not to mention the pre reqs will probably drain more of your resources that grant you anything wanted.
Edit2: A word to the wise: If you had three questions and three questions only, you shouldn't have said the whole story and just asked the questions. Also you shouldn't have titled the post "Help me make my friend cry" should have been more like "Three quick questions".

The post should follow: I am playing a gish, how can I get armor proficiencies without spending feats? Is there a way to get a +9 armor bonus to AC without items? Are there any early entry PrCs for a wizard?

Talic
2007-12-27, 01:11 AM
Nice attack bonus, but at level 20, every melee type has a +30 or so to hit, so he's only 9 higher. Either you're an AC cow and he needs a 20 to hit you anyway (so it doesn't matter), you elusive target and there's no point power attacking (and it doesn't matter), both, or some other way to negate his attacking ability. That said, unless you have a solid way to stop attacks, avoid toe-to-toe (obviously), as his 6 attacks could be pretty bad. With a shock trooper build, chances are his AC will be 20 points lower whenever he's attacking anyway.

That said, things to watch for are the Vorpal (a lucky hit could end it.... Perhaps heavy fortification to counter? Death ward?).

Remember that DR from different sources doesn't usually stack. DR 2/- and DR 5/Adamantine will stop no more than 5 total points of damage Per hit.

The AC, attack, and Saves are impressive, but for a level 20 that high over WBL, it's not surprising. If you're not looking for what to do, then I recommend what NOT to do.

Don't negate his equipment. If you want to show that build > gear, then let him have it. Negate specific problem abilities, maybe, but Disjunction, AMF, and the like don't prove anything.

Don't go with a build that would decimate any fighter build. Wizards, Clerics, and the like. I think you've got that part down.

Cuddly
2007-12-27, 01:41 AM
It's really, really easy to look at someone else's build, then come up with something to counter it.

Really, really ridiculously easy.

Irreverent Fool
2007-12-27, 02:01 AM
Are there any spells that I can use to get the +9 armor bonus I would get from the +5 mithral chain, and thus avoid that expense altogether?

Assuming you're humanoid, you can cast Alter self and turn into a Crucian (Miniatures Handbook pg.59). These buggers have a +8 natural armor bonus. I know this isn't the armor bonus you're looking for, but it can come in handy.

Edit:

The post should follow: I am playing a gish, how can I get armor proficiencies without spending feats? Is there a way to get a +9 armor bonus to AC without items? Are there any early entry PrCs for a wizard?

I agree. If you don't want the extraneous information and suggestions, don't provide extraneous information. There's no need to snap at people who are trying to provide input.

Talic
2007-12-27, 02:41 AM
It's really, really easy to look at someone else's build, then come up with something to counter it.

Really, really ridiculously easy.

He had the build before he had his opponent's build. Most builds listed, including the one I had, were before that build was listed. In fact, the build really isn't all that bad. But when a character is at something like 10x the WBL, it's helpful to get at least a highlight reel of the toys.

I was pleased to see though, that even this epic barb needs a nat 20 to hit the level 16 build I set down. Add 4 more levels of whatever, flavor to taste, and it looks like AC could be a good counter to Vorpal (2 nat 20's isn't likely) even if Heavy Fort wasn't already listed for the build. Not to mention, 4 levels lower, and the HP is about even (would be 70 higher at level 20 with 4 more d10 classes, 50 higher with 4 more d4 classes). Character Strength is quite a bit lower, but the typical weapon I used was a +1 brilliant energy dwarven waraxe, and a pair of +1 throwing axes (returning). +25 to hit (+20 BAB, +4 Str, +1 enhancement) would still tag his touch AC on a roll of 8 (nat armor adds in). Even with moderate power attacks, odds are not in his favor, assuming DM rules that Greater Fortification trumps vorpal (which is how I've always seen it ruled).

Shraik
2007-12-27, 02:43 AM
The idea is mixing spells with energy substitution, but is.... painful

It is simple as boiling blood energy substitution Cold. Substitute Fire for cold and freeze their acidic blood. Does ALOT of internal damage, then melts and burns away at their flesh

This also works...
Polymorph him into a tree, make him into a chair, then dispel it.


Or...
You go to the nearest herd of cattle and collect manure (or just polymorph stuff into it). Go fill a large force cage then teleport him into it. Summon Otyugh x5

Talic
2007-12-27, 02:46 AM
I want to post something but in a spoiler, how?(so i may edit this post)


The idea is mixing spells with energy substitution, but is.... painful

To spoiler something you type SPOILER in brackets ( [ ] )
To end the spoiler, you type /SPOILER in brackets ( [ ] )

Cuddly
2007-12-27, 03:13 AM
Dwarf:
Fighter 5, Deepwarden 2, Finish out with High HP fighter type classes. Power attack progression.

Start with a 20 Con, Dwarven Mountain Plate (+5), Tower Shield (+5), Defending spikes (+5), Ring of Protection(+5), Con boosting item (+6), wishes (con +4), All level boosts to Con. XXX of natural armor +5. At level 16, Con is 34 (38 if raging, go ahead, take a level of barbarian), for a +12(+14) bonus to AC, on top of the +10 for armor, +5 Natural Armor, +4 for Shield, and +20 for other magical defenses. Total AC clocks in at 61. Tell him to break out his lucky D20, and have fun wailing on him.

There are ways to boost it higher, I just aren't thinking of them right now. That said, using shock trooper for -16 to AC and still having AC 45 is pretty bad.

I recalculated his to hit with the axe while in a rage and frenzy:
+20 BAB
+13 str
+5 Magic
+2 rage
+5 frenzy (10 FB levels give +10 str, right?)
+2 charge (if going first)
----
+49

If you decide to go toe-to-toe with him, he will likely shred you, due to deathless frenzy. You HP damage won't matter, and every time he lands a hit, it's going to hurt.

Talic
2007-12-27, 03:31 AM
I recalculated his to hit with the axe while in a rage and frenzy:
+20 BAB
+13 str
+5 Magic
+2 rage
+5 frenzy (10 FB levels give +10 str, right?)
+2 charge (if going first)
----
+49

If you decide to go toe-to-toe with him, he will likely shred you, due to deathless frenzy. You HP damage won't matter, and every time he lands a hit, it's going to hurt.

The build has a dex just high enough to have Elusive target (and does). This means that power attack bonus damage = 0. The Str damage is ok, but bear in mind, the skeleton build that was set up was for level 16. There's still 4 levels to play with there, and it shouldn't be too hard to squeeze another +6 or so AC out in that. A ring that cast a good con buffing spell x times per day would do that... AND would boost HP further. That build is also still under WBL. I've gotten this build up to over 80 AC in the past, I am just lacking my books at work. Even so, the target number for stopping the barb cold is 69 AC. I'm not much shy of that. Deathless frenzy only lasts as long as frenzy. Frenzy has a limited duration. It's a LONG duration, but it's limited. If he's hitting on 20's only, then it's a matter of dropping him to negatives and staying back. Even if you do end up dying after that, he's dead when frenzy ends, which means that it's a draw. And a draw with that much of a WBL disparity? Not that bad.

Oh, and charge only works for round 1, so after that, it's Target number 67. Which is 6 points of AC. I think that's quite doable.

CactusAir
2007-12-27, 06:02 AM
Whisper Gnome Factotum1/Illusionist3/Master illusionist8/Unseen Seer2/Archmage2/Abjurant Champion4. (ban Evocation and Necromacy)

Advanced Learning: Divine Insight
High Arcana: Arcane Reach
High Arcana: Mastery of Shaping

Feats: Able learner, Extend Spell, Persist Spell, Skill Focus: Iaijustu Focus.
Skills: max Hide, Move Silently, and Iaijustu Focus.

Round 1: Cast Fly, Swift; Cast Superior Invisibility
Round 2: Cast (persisted) Shield; Cast Irresistable Dance
Round 3: Cast (persisted) Divine Insight (Iaijustu Focue)
Round 4+: Grease/Iaijutsu.

Uncanny dodge does not save you from Iaijustu damage. Even if he gets off an attack, you have cover from MS7, and a +8 persisted shield spell from AbjC. Just beat him to death with your amazing pile of bonus damage, and laugh as he cannot negate your invisibility.

Not optimized, but saying "I killed you with skill checks" is the kind of diss you want, neh?

Dullyanna
2007-12-27, 10:22 PM
IMHO, you should have a build that does more than just kick his ass (In other words, functions well in a party). If you want to prove your point (That he needs his equipment to succeed), see if you can stage a few encounters, which have to be completed solo. Oh, and don't use spellcasting. Pretty much everybody knows you'll win with it, and thus you'll prove nothing if you utterly destroy him.

MammonAzrael
2007-12-27, 11:03 PM
Looks like all told, your friend is trucking around with a little under 10 million gp in equipment, using the Epic rules for pricing(I think I used 'em right).

4,503,020 for the axe
2,828,200 for the breastplate
1,440,170 for the shield
952,100 for his various gear
9,723,490 gp total

Why aren't you both using a pre-set amount of gear, again? Or why don't you get that much gear yourself? Fun times.

Nowhere Girl
2007-12-28, 12:01 AM
I sort of just glanced at his build, but it looks like he's basically an ubercharger ... almost, just minus the "uber" part because he doesn't appear to have included a way to do a full attack on his charge (unless I missed something -- I did, after all, only skim it).

All in all, a better-than-average (average being any random group of people sit down, with no knowledge of character optimization, and make characters), yet ultimately suboptimal charge build. Also, he loses points for being a frenzied berserker. Frenzied berserkers are notorious for killing and/or being killed by their own parties and are made of lose and fail.

Durendal
2007-12-28, 06:20 AM
If you're into the whole Tome of Battle thing I would suggest something similar to this build (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=764997). The attack routine itself doesn't work quite right do to some missinterpretations with White Raven Tactics, but a similiar build could put out some ridiculous damage. Just draconic polymorph, then full attack for no damage, then go nuts and annihilate his ass thanks to the Stormguard Warrior feat. What makes this even better is that you don't do any damage on the first full attack; which will either lead him into a false sense of secuity or make him realize he's in big trouble. Then you follow up with the next full atack which will definitly make him cry.

Keld Denar
2007-12-28, 07:47 AM
Talic, one part of your dwarf build is invalid. The Deepwarden's special ability to apply CON to AC instead of DEX has one major flaw. Its still capped by max dex bonus. Therefore, with your mountain plate, you don't recieve hardly any of that bonus. Sorry, had to break it to you.

Also, to beat this guy...Level 20 Cleric

Base Caster Level 20
Law Domain +1
Orange Iwin Stone +1
Divine Spell Power +4
Bead of Karma +4
=
CL 30

Dictum

Instagib, since his barbarian has 20 HD, and last time I checked, 30-20=10. You CL is 10 points higher than his HD, which according to Dictum is killed. Dictum works because he is a barbarian, and therefore should be chaotic (or he can't rage). Fortification and Death Ward don't protect vs Dictum, since it is not a negative energy or death effect (no discripters labling it as such). Deathless Frenzy also is negated, since it isn't death by hp damage.

Granted, it takes a round to pop off the bead, then another to speak the word, but this can be accomplished by a Belt of Battle, or by taking Time as your other domain and popping Forsight to Timestop the suprise round (8th and 9th level spells respectively) If you grab levels of Contemplative, I you can grab another domain or 2, one of which should be Destiny, which I believe has Celerity for extra cheese. Then you have all the tools for the standard wizard IWIN button, except with a more powerful kill mechanism.

Alternately, if you could drop a Greater Consumptive Field, and take a brisk stroll through a downtown metropolitan market place (EVIL) before you faceoff with Mr Big Bad Barbarian, your CL would be even higher, allowing for some truely epic Dictum Destruction (TM).

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-12-28, 09:12 AM
Just to show how humiliating you can get him...

Sorc20.

Yes, 20 levels of a core class. No PrC's AT ALL.

If you win initiative: Disjunction him. Otherwise...

Contingency Celerity upon my being the target of an attack

Use Celerity to cast Sudden Mazimize Time Stop

You now have 4 free turns (after the 1 stunned round goes away). If you win initiative, then just Sudden Max Time Stop for 5 rounds. Then, assuming he gets out, you have another get out of jail free card.

1a) Forcecage

1b) Cloudkill

1c) Dimension Lock (this foils items which can get him out)

1d) brew coffee

1e) spend the entire turn pointing how royally screwed the barbarian and rubbing his face in it

Time Starts

Barbarian looses Con every round (even on save) until he dies. Spend each and every round pointing and laughing at him and rediculing him for thinking his toys could make him have the same power as a CORE caster.

Kristoss
2008-01-06, 05:06 AM
Have you had this face off yet?

Can you please post the result?:smallbiggrin:

The Glyphstone
2008-01-06, 08:09 AM
1a) Forcecage

1b) Cloudkill

1c) Dimension Lock (this foils items which can get him out)

1d) brew coffee

1e) spend the entire turn pointing how royally screwed the barbarian and rubbing his face in it

Time Starts

Barbarian looses Con every round (even on save) until he dies. Spend each and every round pointing and laughing at him and rediculing him for thinking his toys could make him have the same power as a CORE caster.


Um - Celerity isn't Core. Plus, one of his "toys" listed was a Rod of Cancellation, which makes Forcecage pointless.


But yeah, I want to know the result of this too. (IMO, CL freakout cheese with Dictum is probably the best strategy).

Gorbash
2008-01-06, 09:38 AM
That's a humilliating combo, but since Crow wants to kill him en melee too. let's expand.

First turn, Phantom steed, make sure you can rapid mount the thing, and get moving.

Casting time of Phantom steed is 10 minutes...

shaggz076
2008-01-06, 10:50 AM
Well if you really want to throw dirt in his eye you should go Duskblade. It gives you the ability to use Mith Full plate w/o SF. Main spells to take would be Vampiric touch, true strike and Dimension door. Featwise you want to have combat reflexes, arcane thesis (vampiric touch), maximize spell, ewp spiked chain, improved initiative and rapid metamagic. The rest would be your fluff filler.

For a weapon buy a Brilliant energy, metaline spiked chain +5

To start the combat you hope your init is good enough to go first. Then you want to sift cast true strike followed up by a maximized vampiric touch as part of your full attack action. Hit him 4 times with a minimum of +41/36/31/26 dealing a totoal of 240hp from the vampiric touch and whatever damage you deal with your spkied chain. Then when he goes to cloe in on combat you get the extra Att of Ops on him which are also affected by your maxed Vampiric touch with a minimum +21 bonus to hit. If he is still standing after the first round of combat then rinse and repeat on the following round. By the time you run out of quick casts for the day he should be in the dirt and you would be ready to take on those pesky great Wyrms out there... Hp wise anyway. lol

Doresain
2008-01-07, 02:10 AM
I looks to me as though you haven't decided on class and levels. It'd be easy for him to argue that you only won because you were an arcanist and they're insane at higher levels, and he'd be right. That's why you're going to use a combat oriented build of your own to serve him a helping of humble pie. I advise the Masked Avenger Build.

The Birth of a Monster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3596302&postcount=19)
Advice for Feats and Skills (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3598466&postcount=28)

I'd need to see what sort of equipment barbarian boy is packing before I can advise you on what sort of equipment to take, but Cloak of Charisma is a must. Your barbarian buddy is looking at a 20+Cha modifier Will save to avoid dying, and that's assuming 6d6 sudden strike, base bonus damage from Strength and Power Attack, and whatever fun enchantments you intend to put on your weapon. Spell Storing is naturally a must, and you will cast Distract Assailant into it after the initial round of combat.

lol, i still havent had a chance to use that excellent build

Crow
2008-01-07, 02:33 AM
The showdown is scheduled for January 15th. FYI.

Chronicled
2008-01-07, 02:37 AM
The showdown is scheduled for January 15th. FYI.

Looking forward to the results. Good luck!

Silentmaster101
2008-01-08, 11:19 AM
you could just go straight wizard and cast twin spell split ray "ray of enfeeblement" add in sudden maximize and a rod or metamagic quicken and he loses 44 str no save.

requires twin spell, split ray, spell penetration, greater spell penetration, a high int (maybe a headband of intellect), and a rod of metamagic quicken.

also you could cast fly and prismatic sphere and have him use his movement action and 5-foot step to pop in and out of it every turn. i doubt that the barb has anything to counter a prismatic sphere. heck you could also take one level of rogue, and use greater invisibility to sneak attack him with a touch attack, so unless he has deflection bonus you have to roll a 10 to hit him even without BAB. maybe even take weapon focus(ray) and improved critical (ray) and remember polar rays for 20d6 cold damage hurt. Lord of the uttercold from Libre mortis also allows you to use substitution to make half the damage negative energy and not cold.

Keld Denar
2008-01-08, 12:26 PM
you could just go straight wizard and cast twin spell split ray "ray of enfeeblement" add in sudden maximize and a rod or metamagic quicken and he loses 44 str no save.

requires twin spell, split ray, spell penetration, greater spell penetration, a high int (maybe a headband of intellect), and a rod of metamagic quicken.

Doesn't work...RoE is a penalty that doesn't stack with itself. The most you'd get out of it is maximized + empower, for about 19.5 str penalty.

Better would be to use Ray of Stupidity (which I know is not core, but na). Split Twin Empower Maximized (with Arcane Thesis of course) is closer to 22 int DAMAGE, and Greater Rod of Quicken gives you 2, for ~44 int damage. No save. Then you can walk up to Mr Big Barbarian, wipe the drool from his face, and CDG him with a rusty scythe over and over and over again.

Also, int damage will knock him out, even in a Deathless Frenzy since DF only mentions hp damage.



also you could cast fly and prismatic sphere and have him use his movement action and 5-foot step to pop in and out of it every turn. i doubt that the barb has anything to counter a prismatic sphere. heck you could also take one level of rogue, and use greater invisibility to sneak attack him with a touch attack, so unless he has deflection bonus you have to roll a 10 to hit him even without BAB. maybe even take weapon focus(ray) and improved critical (ray) and remember polar rays for 20d6 cold damage hurt. Lord of the uttercold from Libre mortis also allows you to use substitution to make half the damage negative energy and not cold.

He's got a Rod of Cancelation, which negates Prismatic Sphere. Of course, you could drop 2 and overlap them. Then cast Heightened (to 9th) Greater Slide to move him back and forth through the sphere.

My Dictum Destruction (TM) method above is a failsafe kill though. Dictum has no save, has to affect him because he can't be lawful AND rage, and is relatively simple. Using domains to get Forsight and Celerity and using a Belt of Battle to pop the Bead of Karma will make you ALWAYS go first and ALWAYS win.

obvious pun
2008-01-10, 07:09 PM
Just my opinion but, bag of holding+portable hole. You, being a wizard/eldritch knight, could just gate/dimension door out of the astral plane, while he spends a loooooooong time figurin' out what to do.

Renx
2008-01-10, 09:11 PM
While I'm not the world's greatest expert on D&D matches (I didn't have the stamina to read through his eq list after the +20 or so modified weapon), but I'd go with annoyance then decimation.

First off, I'd say dispel his Hoversack. It's only CL 9th so rather easy with just a stored Greater Dispel Magic (available in hardware stores worldwide ;)). Then all of his cool items will go flying to the astral plane or explode on him in a flash, which is always nice.

Then... GRAPPLE him. There is nothing more annoying for a barb than to be stuck "He grapples you, what do you do?" "I hit him" "You can't." "I strangle him." "Opposed grapple check... no chance." "GRAARG HULK SMASH" "You can't, you're grappled." "..."

Except, of course, if he has Freedom of Movement. Take care of that ;)

Of course, if you want to go the traditional way, make a planar druid with your plane being one of those weird ones with time distortion. Have him step into your kingdom and age him to death.

Umarth
2008-01-10, 09:19 PM
If you really wanted to humiliate him you should find a way to do it with a bard or monk.

I'd have to rip up my character sheet if I was him and that happened.

Artanis
2008-01-11, 01:26 AM
A cookie to whoever wants to total the value of his gear. I didn't even bother.
If I didn't screw anything up, I got two numbers, one for pricing the +16 armor and +15 weapon as Epic, and one pricing them with extrapolated non-Epic values (that is, what the values would be if the non-epic tables went that high).

Non-epic, the total comes to 3,018,770 gp
Epic, the total comes to 9,372,770 gp

That's...just a bit over WBL :smalleek:

Raiser Blade
2008-01-16, 08:15 PM
The showdown is scheduled for January 15th. FYI.

So how did it go?

Talic
2008-01-17, 03:25 AM
Talic, one part of your dwarf build is invalid. The Deepwarden's special ability to apply CON to AC instead of DEX has one major flaw. Its still capped by max dex bonus. Therefore, with your mountain plate, you don't recieve hardly any of that bonus. Sorry, had to break it to you.

Cite source showing this. The way I see it, you are not applying your dex bonus to AC. Instead, you are applying a con bonus to AC. I see no rule specifically capping it, and common sense certainly doesn't.

WorthingSon
2008-01-17, 11:48 AM
Cite source showing this. The way I see it, you are not applying your dex bonus to AC. Instead, you are applying a con bonus to AC. I see no rule specifically capping it, and common sense certainly doesn't.

It is a matter of phrasing. Usually if you are using one stat in place of another you continue to apply any limitations to the use (like Max Dex). However, if you want to get picky, if the text says you get your con INSTEAD OF your dex, then you might be able to get away with ignoring max dex; however if it says con REPLACES dex, then you are simply changing which number you look at and any limitations still apply.

Kristoss
2008-01-17, 10:24 PM
So how did it go?

Yeah, how did it go?

Crow
2008-01-25, 07:13 PM
Sorry for the long delay in getting this up; My build was a Sorcerer Gish with 32-point buy. The Barbarian's player looked over my sheet and gave it the thumbs up.

Round by Round Results:

Round 1:

Opponents start 80ft. apart, in an open field.

Barb wins initiative, Rage/Frenzies, stupidly charges Sorcerer going for leap attack. Reduces AC big time to land big power attack. Met by Sorcerer wielding standard longspear (two-handed weapons considered automatically readied due to Steadfast Boots). Sorcerer hits with the attack of opportunity for 12 damage. *note* We messed up here because it should have been double damage due to "set against charge".

Sorcerer casts quickened Shield (Through Swift Abjuration, but also has Rapid Metamagic feat to quicken other spells normally if needed), then Time Stop via Runestaff kept in Casting Glove. Gets 3 rounds to work with.

1- Wraithstrike <Persistant>, Haste through Runestaff <Quickened>, drop longspear
2- Bite of the Werebear, Displacement<Quickened>, retrieve masterwork longsword from scabbard, sorcerer's Contingency (Blink, Greater) kicks in with casting of Displacement
3- Heroism, Greater, Magic Weapon, Greater (on longsword)<Quickened>

Round 2:

Sorcerer casts Greater Celerity to head off Barbarian's turn while his AC is still low.

Sorcerer 5-foot steps in, and full-attacks Barbarian while two-handing longsword (With Wraithstrike, Barb's AC is 6). 4 attacks with 17-point power attack), 4 hits totalling 248 damage.

Barbarian gets his AC back up, and full-attacks in return (does not power attack!), making 5 attacks and scoring 5 hits. Only three hit due to Displacement/Blink. They still hit hard, for a total of 95 damage on the dazed Sorcerer.

Round 3: Barbarian at 50 of 310 hp. Sorcerer at 95 damage taken (don't remember his total, but it was around 150).

Barbarian full-attacks again, 5 attacks for 5 hits. Blink/Displacement negate 4between both spells. Single hit scores 32 damage against the dazed Sorcerer.

Sorcerer dazed.

Round 4: Barbarian still at 50 of 310. Sorcerer has taken 127.

Sorcerer, no longer dazed, casts Greater Celerity to head off Barbarian's turn again. 5-foot steps back, and casts Greater Teleport. Goes to my farm 8 miles away.

Barbarian, at a loss declares that he will "wait". This after the Barbarian's player looked up and down his equipment sheet to determine a course of action. I am called "cheap", and everyone laughs.

Round 5:

Barbarian still pissed and calls contest unfair. Uses out-of-character knowledge to start running towards my farm, 8 miles to the north. Out-of-character, tries to goad me into coming back. I tell him I can't because I am dazed.

Round 6:

Barbarian still running to farm.

Sorcerer Greater Teleports to the last position he fought from. Yells to barbarian who is running north.

Round 7:

Barbarian starts running back. (Doesn't bother to check equipment for better methods of transportation)

Sorcerer waits.

Round 8:

Barbarian thinks he is tricky and continues to run back, stopping 80 ft. from sorcerer's position.

Sorcerer casts quickened Dimension Hop, lands directly in front of Barbarian. Proceeds to full-attack, (power attack for 3) 4 attacks for 2 hits. Totals 63 damage. Barbarian is still up due to Deathless Frenzy.

Round 9:

Sorcerer casts Greater Celerity one last time. Greater Teleports to farm again. Waits for Deathless Frenzy to end.

The sorcerer checked up on the Barbarian's body the next day.

So that is how it went. Neither of us played very well, and I am sure that other players could have guided the Barbarian to victory. The Barbarian's player has now realized that he needs to work harder to organize his equipment. Though he has stuff for every occasion, in the heat of battle, managing it was more difficult than it looked.

Tavenknaughtlin
2008-01-25, 07:57 PM
Well of course you'd beat him, you're a spellcaster.

No surprise there, lol.

Also: Shouldn't you have died from that first leap attack from the barbarian, combined with the rest of the damage you took? You didn't say how much he did on that first Power Attack empowered leap.

Crow
2008-01-25, 08:06 PM
Well of course you'd beat him, you're a spellcaster.

No surprise there, lol.

Also: Shouldn't you have died from that first leap attack from the barbarian, combined with the rest of the damage you took? You didn't say how much he did on that first Power Attack empowered leap.

The AoO with the longspear stopped him at the 10-foot box.

Tavenknaughtlin
2008-01-25, 08:22 PM
AoOs stop a Charge?!?

If i had known this, i wouldn't have lost so many polearm-wielding Paladins. :smallannoyed:

Worira
2008-01-25, 08:41 PM
Uh, no. Neither AoOs or readying against a charge does that. The barbarian ripped your head off in the first round.

Fax Celestis
2008-01-25, 08:42 PM
Uh, no. Neither AoOs or readying against a charge does that. The barbarian ripped your head off in the first round.

Unless maybe he had the Hold the Line feat. Or Stand Still.

Worira
2008-01-25, 08:45 PM
Hold the line wouldn't, he'd just get another AoO. Stand still would, but he never mentioned he had it, so I'm guessing he just misread the rules on readying against charges.

Edit: and he said he hit for 12 damage. Stand Still attempts don't actually do damage.

Crow
2008-01-25, 09:50 PM
Well I guess we have been doing it wrong this whole time. This will be some news to our group. Did AoO stop movement in 3.0? I'm trying to figure out how we came to doing that.

The Barbarian didn't tear my head off, he just altered how the fight would have gone. Either way, he doesn't land that Leap Attack.

GoC
2008-01-26, 12:01 AM
I really wish I'd seen this earlier! I could have given you some links to some of the insane charging/lockdown/pouncing/grappling builds on the CO boards! They'd have cleaned his clock at ECL 10!

Yes, I'm well aware you didn't ask for any.:smallamused:

Worira
2008-01-26, 12:03 AM
Oh? Why not? Did you roll it against your AC? What was your build's AC, anyway? Did you take Elusive Target? All the barbarian had to do to kill you was 128 damage, if the rest of the battle went as before.

Voyager_I
2008-01-26, 12:11 AM
Well, he had multiple castings of Greater Celeribrie, so avoiding a charge would be fairly trivial. He only let it happen because he thought he could stop it with the AoO.

Worira
2008-01-26, 12:12 AM
Except that Celerity's an immediate action, and he was flatfooted.

Cuddly
2008-01-26, 12:16 AM
Sorry for the long delay in getting this up; My build was a Sorcerer Gish with 32-point buy. The Barbarian's player looked over my sheet and gave it the thumbs up.

Round by Round Results:

Round 1:

Opponents start 80ft. apart, in an open field.

Barb wins initiative, Rage/Frenzies, stupidly charges Sorcerer going for leap attack. Reduces AC big time to land big power attack. Met by Sorcerer wielding standard longspear (two-handed weapons considered automatically readied due to Steadfast Boots). Sorcerer hits with the attack of opportunity for 12 damage. *note* We messed up here because it should have been double damage due to "set against charge".

Sorcerer casts quickened Shield (Through Swift Abjuration, but also has Rapid Metamagic feat to quicken other spells normally if needed), then Time Stop via Runestaff kept in Casting Glove. Gets 3 rounds to work with.

1- Wraithstrike <Persistant>, Haste through Runestaff <Quickened>, drop longspear
2- Bite of the Werebear, Displacement<Quickened>, retrieve masterwork longsword from scabbard, sorcerer's Contingency (Blink, Greater) kicks in with casting of Displacement
3- Heroism, Greater, Magic Weapon, Greater (on longsword)<Quickened>

Round 2:

Sorcerer casts Greater Celerity to head off Barbarian's turn while his AC is still low.

Sorcerer 5-foot steps in, and full-attacks Barbarian while two-handing longsword (With Wraithstrike, Barb's AC is 6). 4 attacks with 17-point power attack), 4 hits totalling 248 damage.

Barbarian gets his AC back up, and full-attacks in return (does not power attack!), making 5 attacks and scoring 5 hits. Only three hit due to Displacement/Blink. They still hit hard, for a total of 95 damage on the dazed Sorcerer.

Round 3: Barbarian at 50 of 310 hp. Sorcerer at 95 damage taken (don't remember his total, but it was around 150).

Barbarian full-attacks again, 5 attacks for 5 hits. Blink/Displacement negate 4between both spells. Single hit scores 32 damage against the dazed Sorcerer.

Sorcerer dazed.

Round 4: Barbarian still at 50 of 310. Sorcerer has taken 127.

Sorcerer, no longer dazed, casts Greater Celerity to head off Barbarian's turn again. 5-foot steps back, and casts Greater Teleport. Goes to my farm 8 miles away.

Barbarian, at a loss declares that he will "wait". This after the Barbarian's player looked up and down his equipment sheet to determine a course of action. I am called "cheap", and everyone laughs.

Round 5:

Barbarian still pissed and calls contest unfair. Uses out-of-character knowledge to start running towards my farm, 8 miles to the north. Out-of-character, tries to goad me into coming back. I tell him I can't because I am dazed.

Round 6:

Barbarian still running to farm.

Sorcerer Greater Teleports to the last position he fought from. Yells to barbarian who is running north.

Round 7:

Barbarian starts running back. (Doesn't bother to check equipment for better methods of transportation)

Sorcerer waits.

Round 8:

Barbarian thinks he is tricky and continues to run back, stopping 80 ft. from sorcerer's position.

Sorcerer casts quickened Dimension Hop, lands directly in front of Barbarian. Proceeds to full-attack, (power attack for 3) 4 attacks for 2 hits. Totals 63 damage. Barbarian is still up due to Deathless Frenzy.

Round 9:

Sorcerer casts Greater Celerity one last time. Greater Teleports to farm again. Waits for Deathless Frenzy to end.

The sorcerer checked up on the Barbarian's body the next day.

So that is how it went. Neither of us played very well, and I am sure that other players could have guided the Barbarian to victory. The Barbarian's player has now realized that he needs to work harder to organize his equipment. Though he has stuff for every occasion, in the heat of battle, managing it was more difficult than it looked.

Wow, you got your ass handed to you by a barbarian. It's too bad you didn't know the rules well enough to know that a long spear doesn't stop a leap attacking barbarian.

Crow
2008-01-26, 12:22 AM
Except that Celerity's an immediate action, and he was flatfooted.

I would've used Nerveskitter first round. DM ruled in the Barbarian's favor against having Foresight up.

Worira
2008-01-26, 12:31 AM
Hmm, what was the difference between your initiatives? Would you have won it if you'd cast Nerveskitter?

Voyager_I
2008-01-26, 12:36 AM
Point remains, he only let it happen because he thought he had other ways of negating it. Heck, just finding a 20th level Arcane caster walking is a pretty big concession in the Barbarian's favor. The real question for me is, since the Barbarian was presumably operating under the same misunderstanding of the rules, why did he Power Attack his AC into the single digits when it was probably overkill and he knew you could stop him with the Longspear on anything but a 1? A more moderate attack probably could've been the difference.

Demented
2008-01-26, 12:56 AM
Forget the leap attack... Surviving the second full attack was just lucky. =P
Still, it's shameful on the Barbarian that he couldn't kill a twice-dazed sorceror who he won initiative against. (And more shameful that both his full attacks didn't equal the sorceror's one full attack.)

I'd say that's a lesson taught.

Crow
2008-01-26, 01:00 AM
Hmm, what was the difference between your initiatives? Would you have won it if you'd cast Nerveskitter?

The initiative difference was like 2 points. We were both in the 20's and he barely edged me out. So in this case, yes.


The real question for me is, since the Barbarian was presumably operating under the same misunderstanding of the rules, why did he Power Attack his AC into the single digits when it was probably overkill and he knew you could stop him with the Longspear on anything but a 1? A more moderate attack probably could've been the difference.

I honestly do not know. I think he just wanted to get a massive attack off or something, and didn't think it through. We've all been playing by the same misunderstanding since 3.0, so I know he knows about it.

Either way, no doubt he'll want to play out round two after he sees this.