I don't like Psionics

[DiscipleofBob]

This came up in another thread, and I said I'd post my opinion in another thread as to avoid derailment and so the people on this board can tear me apart.

First, a few disclaimers:

1) I do not claim to be any sort of expert at D&D whatsoever. I just learn from experience and try to keep a grasp on the rules of the game. I also realize that in a lot of these experiences, fellow players have either been lying or mistaken about the rules.

2) I realize the term "broken" means something different on these boards than it does to me, mostly because my games don't have any of the cheese like Batman wizards, CoDzillas, or anything like that.

3) I am fully aware that the following statements will be torn apart by arguments both sane and insane, logical and irrational, and I welcome these like a true masochist.

Now, on to the main event.

(takes deep breath)

I hate psionics. Hate 'em. Hate everything about 'em.

First of all, every game I've ever played with a psion, either DMing or being a fellow player, the psion has always dominated. The first was a Seer whose player was admittedly new to psionics, but was still a very powerful blaster. This didn't bother me so much as she was our only full caster. Next was a game I ran where I let someone play a Wilder, who quickly let it be known that his character was unstable enough to kill, no, INCINERATE an NPC who stole 30 gp from him and was willing to give it back on grounds that he speak in a civilized and respectful manner (which was OBVIOUSLY so ridiculous a demand that it could not be met.) The girl was two levels above him, had a fairly decent Touch AC, and he incinerated her in two rounds. I also learned this particular "encounter" that while grappling a wizard is an effective countermeasure, grappling a wilder is a completely useless gesture and will only serve to make you an easier target. The wilder is able to do 7d6 of any energy type at level 5 in a flat-footed ranged touch attack, and all he has to do is spend a minor fraction of his power points and roll an easy percentile roll, much more than I realize any arcane caster that wasn't completely cheesed out could accomplish. The next instance was in another game I ran where I let someone play a Soulknife. I figured: hey, it couldn't be that bad, this class doesn't even have power points. I was wrong. I'm not sure how he did it, and I double-checked his character sheet and the class to make sure he wasn't making anything up, but the guy was a tank that put every other tank to shame. Critting everything ridiculously easy, and taking down nearly half a t-rex's hit points in one attack. Finally, in our most recent game, the least broken of the psions I've seen, a Psiforged Kineticist. I was a Warmage specializing in lightning. Until I got 3rd-level spells and some very useful items and feats, he was easily outdoing me in terms of damage. I can't complain of his character too much because at least their were drawbacks this time. His best spells were Will-negates, but he could ego-whip someone into submission fairly quickly for someone of his level.

I also don't really like the psionics fluff. Okay, we have a guy who can manipulate stuff with his mind. Don't we already have a class that does the exact same thing? Oh yeah, the wizard, sorcerer, and pretty much any of the spellcasting classes. The only real difference is a different "spell" selection (for which Psions have a much better selection at the cost of less "spells"), and the power point system, which I have always found to be longer-lasting than the vancian magic system. To me, psionics are just an unnecessary element to D&D, when pretty much everything in the Psionics books could have been done just as well with arcane magic or something similar.

Okay, I'm done. Feel free to rip me apart. :smallsmile:

[Azerian Kelimon]

Something that might have been key: You can't spend more PP on a power than your manifester level. Maybe someone ignored it?

That aside, the wilder was a nutter, the soulknife must have been cheating or your party played weeeeeeeaaaaaaakkkkk chars (Soulknife is thought of as one of the weakest classes!), and psionics is ALWAYS better at blasting (And warmages are pathetic blasters at that. A normal wizzo can do better).

[Lady Tialait]

I'm not going to say anything against you, my personal experiances with Psionics have been in games with CoZilla, and Batman running about...heck the only psion that was a little bit to much was when someone build punpun in FR. other then that i've yet to have any problems with Psionics...no real solid arguement..

I like the flavor, it just feels to mebetter then the sorc flavor..(I hate Sorc...soo much I refuse to spell it out) But then again. Its just me.

that's just my 2cp

[Gralamin]

This came up in another thread, and I said I'd post my opinion in another thread as to avoid derailment and so the people on this board can tear me apart.

First, a few disclaimers:

1) I do not claim to be any sort of expert at D&D whatsoever. I just learn from experience and try to keep a grasp on the rules of the game. I also realize that in a lot of these experiences, fellow players have either been lying or mistaken about the rules.
Fair Disclaimer. I assume that the DM at least was familiar with psionics?


2) I realize the term "broken" means something different on these boards than it does to me, mostly because my games don't have any of the cheese like Batman wizards, CoDzillas, or anything like that.
Your team might be balanced if they can take out a CR 5 opponent at level 5 while losing 20% of their resources. Resources include spell slots, power points and other things that can be refreshed daily. Make sure there is multiple encounters per day so that they cannot "go nova".


3) I am fully aware that the following statements will be torn apart by arguments both sane and insane, logical and irrational, and I welcome these like a true masochist.
Fair Enough


First of all, every game I've ever played with a psion, either DMing or being a fellow player, the psion has always dominated. The first was a Seer whose player was admittedly new to psionics, but was still a very powerful blaster. This didn't bother me so much as she was our only full caster.
Psionics is the only system to do blasting properly.


Next was a game I ran where I let someone play a Wilder, who quickly let it be known that his character was unstable enough to kill, no, INCINERATE an NPC who stole 30 gp from him and was willing to give it back on grounds that he speak in a civilized and respectful manner (which was OBVIOUSLY so ridiculous a demand that it could not be met.) The girl was two levels above him, had a fairly decent Touch AC, and he incinerated her in two rounds.
That part is all roleplaying and a problem with the player not psionics. The next part though...


I also learned this particular "encounter" that while grappling a wizard is an effective countermeasure, grappling a wilder is a completely useless gesture and will only serve to make you an easier target. The wilder is able to do 7d6 of any energy type at level 5 in a flat-footed ranged touch attack, and all he has to do is spend a minor fraction of his power points and roll an easy percentile roll, much more than I realize any arcane caster that wasn't completely cheesed out could accomplish.
Psionics in Grappling:

Grappling or Pinned

To manifest a power while grappling or pinned, you must make a Concentration check (DC 20 + the level of the power you’re manifesting) or lose the power.

10% is fairly low, but Wilders can't get any good blasting power like Energy Missile (Without the use of Expanded Knowledge at some time).
Power Point wise, the Wilder has 25 (base), and likely up to 35 max. That is 20% or 14%. The Fact that it was used for two rounds means it used 40% to 28% of its resources. That is a lot.


The next instance was in another game I ran where I let someone play a Soulknife. I figured: hey, it couldn't be that bad, this class doesn't even have power points. I was wrong. I'm not sure how he did it, and I double-checked his character sheet and the class to make sure he wasn't making anything up, but the guy was a tank that put every other tank to shame. Critting everything ridiculously easy, and taking down nearly half a t-rex's hit points in one attack.
This guy had to be cheating. 'm guessing he was stacking crit increaser's (which doesn't work), and using Psychic Strike as if it was sneak attack.


Finally, in our most recent game, the least broken of the psions I've seen, a Psiforged Kineticist. I was a Warmage specializing in lightning. Until I got 3rd-level spells and some very useful items and feats, he was easily outdoing me in terms of damage. I can't complain of his character too much because at least their were drawbacks this time. His best spells were Will-negates, but he could ego-whip someone into submission fairly quickly for someone of his level.
Warmages are very bad blasters. Also, Ego Whip is fairly weak at first, but something amazing at higher levels.


I also don't really like the psionics fluff. Okay, we have a guy who can manipulate stuff with his mind. Don't we already have a class that does the exact same thing? Oh yeah, the wizard, sorcerer, and pretty much any of the spellcasting classes.
Not quite correct. Their power comes without, The Psions comes from within. But with all fluff you can like it or hate it.


The only real difference is a different "spell" selection (for which Psions have a much better selection at the cost of less "spells"), and the power point system, which I have always found to be longer-lasting than the vancian magic system.
Psions do have some great abilities, but wizards oodles of spells tends to be better. Also Psions as far as I can tell are meant to last 5 encounters, while normal casters are meant to last 4.


To me, psionics are just an unnecessary element to D&D, when pretty much everything in the Psionics books could have been done just as well with arcane magic or something similar.
You mean like a caster who uses his own power, instead of manipulating the universe? Oh wait. Psion.


Okay, I'm done. Feel free to rip me apart. :smallsmile:
You have been ripped.

[Ichneumon]

If I understand correctly, the Wilder killed a NPC because it had stolen his money, this seems reasonable... So, the NPC begged for mercy and agreed to give it back? So what? The behaviour of the wilder might be considered evil for killing him, but I would allow it.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Actually, most people wouldn't allow it because it's the hallmark of THE most hated alignment: Chaotic Crazy.

[Solo]

You hate psionics. That's great.

I love psionics. That's also great.

[Wordmiser]

...much more than I realize any arcane caster that wasn't completely cheesed out could accomplish.You mean taking Empower Spell with your Wizard's bonus feat is "completely cheesing him out"?

Of course, that isn't an entirely fair comparison--the Wizard won't have a 10% failure chance.

[DiscipleofBob]

Well, I'd be stupid to try and take on all the arguments, but just one thing to say.


Not quite correct. Their power comes without, The Psions comes from within. But with all fluff you can like it or hate it.

We have one of those already. They're called sorcerers, where the arcane power comes from their own heritage/blood/whatever-explanation-you're-using-this-setting.

That's all.

[Solo]

Well, I'd be stupid to try and take on all the arguments, but just one thing to say.



We have one of those already. They're called sorcerers, where the arcane power comes from their own heritage/blood/whatever-explanation-you're-using-this-setting.

That's all.

Except Psions do it better than sorcerers, mechanically.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Actually, that comes from having magic in your veins, to be poetic. Psionics are based around tapping he power of your mind. Sorcerers still rely on someone having externally screwing some magical being, psionsicists are fully internal.

[Chronicled]

Gralamin covered most of the basics (although I've found psionic classes handle only 4 encounters per day if they want to meaningfully contribute, with the wizard handling more). Your group sounds like the first group I gamed with, where certain classes performed far beyond their normal capabilities when their players didn't read or ignored the rules.

The Duskblade, for instance. She thought/insisted that taking a metamagic feat meant that it permanently applied to all her spells, without any spell level increase--so she took empower and maximize. She also thought that taking two-weapon fighting meant that you also got pounce, and that you got the feats granting additional attacks with the second weapon for free. She also claimed that the Duskblade spell channeling applied with every hit--so that at level 6, she was hitting 4 times with an empowered, maximized shocking grasp on each of them (with drow poison on each hit, to boot). She decided that Swift Fly had the duration of Fly but needed only a swift action to cast (rather than lasting 1 round), and that Swift Invisibility acted as Greater Invisibility with a swift action to cast. That's not all; she convinced the DM that due to an ambiguous wording in the Duskblade description, that any bonus spell slots granted due to a high Int could be used even if they couldn't normally be cast. She had an Int of 17, so she was casting a 4th level Duskblade spell (the highest level they get) 1/day at level 4. The DM and players thought that it was supposed to work this way due to the previous campaign (that I wasn't in) having similar difficulties with players and DM not knowing the rules. Other examples of bad rules knowledge in this campaign were spontaneous cleric/druid casting, and Bluff acting as mind control, even against players (and there was a Beguiler who focused solely on this).

Does this mean the Duskblade class is broken? No. Just because this player didn't read the rules or willfully ignored them to cheese out their character doesn't make the class bad.

To get back to the subject of Psionics, I've found them to be fun and balanced. With the Psion, they "fixed" the sorcerer class into something with actual flexibility and viable blasting. The mechanic of augmenting powers are excellent, and the psionic focus is a well-thought balancing factor. The only thing I've disliked is that almost all their beneficial powers are self-only--but that's not a matter of breaking the game.

[Rachel Lorelei]

1) I do not claim to be any sort of expert at D&D whatsoever. I just learn from experience and try to keep a grasp on the rules of the game. I also realize that in a lot of these experiences, fellow players have either been lying or mistaken about the rules.
This is why knowing the rules is helpful. :P


2) I realize the term "broken" means something different on these boards than it does to me, mostly because my games don't have any of the cheese like Batman wizards, CoDzillas, or anything like that.
If your wizards just cast Scorching Ray and Fireball, psions will seem pretty good by comparison!
(takes deep breath)


I hate psionics. Hate 'em. Hate everything about 'em.

First of all, every game I've ever played with a psion, either DMing or being a fellow player, the psion has always dominated. The first was a Seer whose player was admittedly new to psionics, but was still a very powerful blaster. This didn't bother me so much as she was our only full caster.
Blasting is what psions are best at. What level was this? What were the other characters? Was the player keeping track of PP spent (especially on Augmenting)? Psionic blasting is costly, because if you want your 2nd-level power that does 3d6+augment to do 7d6, you need to spend the original 3 PP, and then 4 more (making it the equivalent of a 4th-level power).


Next was a game I ran where I let someone play a Wilder, who quickly let it be known that his character was unstable enough to kill, no, INCINERATE an NPC who stole 30 gp from him and was willing to give it back on grounds that he speak in a civilized and respectful manner (which was OBVIOUSLY so ridiculous a demand that it could not be met.) The girl was two levels above him, had a fairly decent Touch AC, and he incinerated her in two rounds.
I don't know anything about the NPC. I'm willing to bet that any number of characters could've killed it. An arcanist might use Fly or Glitterdust and then pick the NPC off at their leisure.


I also learned this particular "encounter" that while grappling a wizard is an effective countermeasure, grappling a wilder is a completely useless gesture and will only serve to make you an easier target. The wilder is able to do 7d6 of any energy type at level 5 in a flat-footed ranged touch attack, and all he has to do is spend a minor fraction of his power points and roll an easy percentile roll, much more than I realize any arcane caster that wasn't completely cheesed out could accomplish.
To do 7d6 with an energy ray, the Wilder would need to augment it. That's 5 PP plus the Wild Surge. That's the equivalent of a 3rd level spell/power (4th with the augmentation), and hardly a "minor fraction" of the Wilder's 35-ish PP. Sure, he can do that seven times, miss some of them, and basically get in a few rays in a couple of combats... and then he's out.
The wilder can do 7d6 instead of 5d6 because of Wild Surge... but at level 5, that's a 10% chance to be dazed for a round (which means that you get taken apart in melee) and lose 5 PP (so using Wild Surge makes you run out faster). Additionally, the 5th level Wilder knows three powers, which means that that energy ray is one of three things he can do. The Wilder isn't considered a particularily good class (despite the damage potential from Wild Surge) for that and a few other reasons. It does start blasting effectively earlier than a Sorcerer, but winds up being a whole lot worse.

As for grappling, it still forces Concentration checks (ones that aren't easy to make at level 5).


The next instance was in another game I ran where I let someone play a Soulknife. I figured: hey, it couldn't be that bad, this class doesn't even have power points. I was wrong. I'm not sure how he did it, and I double-checked his character sheet and the class to make sure he wasn't making anything up, but the guy was a tank that put every other tank to shame. Critting everything ridiculously easy, and taking down nearly half a t-rex's hit points in one attack.
There is no way to explain this. Soulknife is one of the very worst classes in the game, down there just below monk and just above the CWar Samurai. Was he applying Psychic Strike on every hit? He should not have been able to crit any better than any other character. I think you can put this one down to cheatery--Soulknife is a terrible class and you have nothing to fear from it.


Finally, in our most recent game, the least broken of the psions I've seen, a Psiforged Kineticist. I was a Warmage specializing in lightning. Until I got 3rd-level spells and some very useful items and feats, he was easily outdoing me in terms of damage. I can't complain of his character too much because at least their were drawbacks this time. His best spells were Will-negates, but he could ego-whip someone into submission fairly quickly for someone of his level.
That's because Psionics is good at damage and, well, Warmage isn't a very good class, especially before you get third-level spells (which at least gives you, say, Stinking Cloud and Sleet Storm in addition to damage). Nevertheless, you should've been able to hold your own. At 1st level, he's got, what, a 1d6+1 Energy Ray? You've got Hail of Stone for an area-effect and Magic Missile or a 1d8 Lesser Orb for a single target, and you add Warmage Edge, which is actually significant at this level. 1d8 is equivlaent to 1d6+1, and then you'd be adding two or three points from your Edge. You also have the option of using Magic Missile for long range (or hard-to-hit enemies).

At level 3, he's ahead because he gets a new spell/power level and you don't; that's a fault of Sorcerer-type progressions compared to prepared-caster-type.

At level 4, a Kineticist can pick up the two most potent blasting powers in the game (Energy Missile and Energy Stun). Energy Missile is a little overpowered (especially if you use the Sonic to destroy equipment); both powers got nerfed in the Complete Psionic (they were increasing DC too fast with augmentation). With those, it's no wonder he's outdoing you--of course, a Warmage could have two feats that give him +3 CL to Fire spells between them, and by launching CL 7 Scorching Rays for 8d6.
Even without that, you could've been competitive (which says something about the Psion, if a Warmage is competitive--Warmages aren't exactly great): Acid Arrow does 2d4, + let's say 3 from Warmage Edge, for two rounds. That's 4d6+6 (and it's SR: No), competitive with his single-target power. He does have multiple-target blasts already, though.

You have Pyrotechnics, though, which can blind enemies. It's no Glitterdust, but it can still be useful, and the Psion can't do that at all.

By comparison, a wizard would be using Glitterdust to blind enemies and then letting the party kill them, Enlarging party members, Ray of Enfeeblement-ing single melee enemies...



I also don't really like the psionics fluff. Okay, we have a guy who can manipulate stuff with his mind. Don't we already have a class that does the exact same thing? Oh yeah, the wizard, sorcerer, and pretty much any of the spellcasting classes. The only real difference is a different "spell" selection (for which Psions have a much better selection at the cost of less "spells"), and the power point system, which I have always found to be longer-lasting than the vancian magic system. To me, psionics are just an unnecessary element to D&D, when pretty much everything in the Psionics books could have been done just as well with arcane magic or something similar.

Okay, I'm done. Feel free to rip me apart. :smallsmile:
By that reasoning, barbarians are unnecessary to D&D (could've just made some fighter feats for it and tagged them [Rage]). Paladins, too--they're just fighter/clerics, aren't they? And they don't even fight as well as regular clerics. And so on.
The flavor difference for psionics is that the power is internal rather than external. Sorcerers aren't like that--they have power because a great-grandparent boinked a demon/dragon/angel/what-have-you.

It's also not very hard to reflavor it as just another style of arcane magic--heck, eliminate Sorcerers and call Psions "sorcerers". .


The thing is, the best arcane spells either don't HAVE psionic equivalents (Glitterdust), or the equivalents are more restricted (Fly--it's a Nomad 4 power, rather than a level 3 spell anyone who hasn't banned Transmutation can take) or worse.

Ray of Enfeeblement, Glitterdust, and Web are great examples at spell levels 1 and 2.

For level 3 spells, check out Haste and Slow. Haste is going to add more damage over the course of a fight than Fireball (or an Energy Missile), and Slow changes the course of the entire encounter and can save your party a *lot* of pain.

Then there's useful things like Rope Trick.


So, to sum up: psions are pretty good at blasting, but melee characters are going to do as much damage (without running out) most of the time, and psions don't get (almost) any of the most powerful things arcane magic can do. You have far less to fear from psions than from wizards.

[Draz74]

Yeah, I agree the magic/psionics fluff overlaps too much. But if you're going to say, "This dichotomy of fluff doesn't work for me, I have to get rid of one of the two systems!" ... then I actually think it works better to get rid of magic rather than psionics.

Magic: Cooler overall tropes (elves cooler than dromites (in fantasy, rather than sci-fi), books and staffs cooler than crystals and tattoos), much better diversity of magic items.

Psionics: Better fluff, better caster mechanics.

Tough choice overall.

[Kurald Galain]

Something that might have been key: You can't spend more PP on a power than your manifester level. Maybe someone ignored it?

I'd argue that this is poor design on WOTC's part - there appear to be soooo many players who don't know that rule, and not knowing it really breaks the game in half.

That said, too many 3E psionic powers are too similar to 3E wizard spells. Or, in other words, since wizards can do everything (other than healing), there isn't sufficient "niche" to give the psio powers a special flavor.

[KIDS]

Right now I had psionics dismissed from a game where I wanted to play in, on a basis that "they were overpowered in 2E". I wanted to bang my head against the wall...

[Solo]

I'd argue that this is poor design on WOTC's part - there appear to be soooo many players who don't know that rule, and not knowing it really breaks the game in half.

That said, too many 3E psionic powers are too similar to 3E wizard spells. Or, in other words, since wizards can do everything (other than healing), there isn't sufficient "niche" to give the psio powers a special flavor.

It says right in the SRD under "Psion" that you can't spend more PP than your manifester level.

What's so hard about reading that rule?

[Azerian Kelimon]

That everyone wants to play gishes and jumps directly to the psywar?

[Ulzgoroth]

What is more internal about the psion's power than the sorcerer's? Nothing, really. Neither actually knows where they get power from, and both use it without reference to anything outside themselves (which wizards can actually do too, if they choose to train for it, but they do know where their power comes from). The psion just doesn't have any theories about the source of their power either.

Compare, if you will, the sorcerer:

Sorcerers develop rudimentary powers at puberty.
Their first spells are incomplete, spontaneous, uncontrolled, and
sometimes dangerous. A household with a budding sorcerer in it
may be troubled by strange sounds or lights, which can create the
impression that the place is haunted. Eventually, the young sorcerer
understands the power that he has been wielding unintentionally.
From that point on, he can begin practicing and improving his
powers. And the psion:
Those destined to be psions show signs of mental powers from the time they are just a few years old, but manifestations become especially noticeable at puberty. Unexplained noises and lights, crockery flying through the air of its own accord, and the appearance of small items out of thin air are common occurrences.

[Azerian Kelimon]

The external thing comes from a sorcerer's ancestor being some magical being, and from there does he get teh powah, while a psionicist just has it, without old grandmommy screwing a dragon or solar.

[Ulzgoroth]

The external thing comes from a sorcerer's ancestor being some magical being, and from there does he get teh powah, while a psionicist just has it, without old grandmommy screwing a dragon or solar.
That isn't external power, even if so. That it has a traceable origin doesn't change that it's just part of what the sorcerer does.

But also, I haven't seen it declared yet that all sorcerers are of some heritage or other. It's pretty well established that outsider, dragon, or fey ancestry can induce sorcerer powers, but not at all that those are the only explanations for such powers.

Nor is it said anywhere that psions don't get their powers from such ancestry. Some of the fluff implies that there is a hereditary element to psionics, in fact (look at the background on psiwars).

[Nowhere Girl]

Actually, most people wouldn't allow it because it's the hallmark of THE most hated alignment: Chaotic Crazy.

Actually, that's retarded.

Can you imagine what would happen if someone tried to steal Darth Vader's wallet? Or the Godfather's?

Look, the fact is, some people, you just don't **** with. Or if you do, you only do it once, because there's no you left to do it a second time.

[Ichneumon]

Sorry, but if I had the power to blast them away, I would certainly do so with people who tried to steal my money.

Now, I would call killing random people in the inn Chaotic Crazy, but this really isn't.

[Lord Iames Osari]

What is more internal about the psion's power than the sorcerer's? Nothing, really. Neither actually knows where they get power from, and both use it without reference to anything outside themselves (which wizards can actually do too, if they choose to train for it, but they do know where their power comes from). The psion just doesn't have any theories about the source of their power either.

Actually, it's not true that the sorcerer doesn't reference anything outside himself. He has to use all the same Verbal, Somatic, Material, and Focus components as the wizard.

Why bother doing that if your power is all internal?

[Dragonmuncher]

Don't have much to add- most points have already been covered. I'll just add that I, too, am amazed and confused by your Soulknife tale.

A soulknife is basically just a fighter with a worse BAB and a weapon he can't lose. Nothing particularly special (or good) about that.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Eeehm, nowhere, the NPC didn't just steal. She did it because the she wanted the wilder to be civil. I assume the NPC had a reason to do it, and incinerating someone in the middle of an argument is wholly impolite.

[Ichneumon]

I actually somehow managed that too, to play a soulknife and outshadow the main fighter. I forgot how I did it, nothing metagaming, or anything. Just a normal Soulknife...

EDIT: So, I would get rather angry too if someone stole my money to enforce her points during an argument...

[Ulzgoroth]

Actually, it's not true that the sorcerer doesn't reference anything outside himself. He has to use all the same Verbal, Somatic, Material, and Focus components as the wizard.

Why bother doing that if your power is all internal?
Because you still need to shape, focus and direct it? That is, the same reasons anyone else would have for needing components, ever?

[tyckspoon]

I actually somehow managed that too, to play a soulknife and outshadow the main fighter. I forgot how I did it, nothing metagaming, or anything. Just a normal Soulknife...


I think this would tend to happen if you happen to be in a very low-wealth game, so that the Soulknife's enhancements and enchantments to his soulblade outpace the Fighter's weapon. Or maybe if your encounters tend to fall such that you get to use Psychic Strike a lot more than normal.. or the fighter just sucks. It's not hard for a fighter to take a lot of trap feats and wind up self-nerfed.

[leperkhaun]

Actually, that's retarded.

Can you imagine what would happen if someone tried to steal Darth Vader's wallet? Or the Godfather's?

Look, the fact is, some people, you just don't **** with. Or if you do, you only do it once, because there's no you left to do it a second time.

but there is a vast difference in vadar, the second in command of a galactic spanning empire of evil and a mafia don who has hordes of people who know how to do that without getting caught and who have people bribed....and an adventurer.

Sure kill the begger, but when the king sends his warmages after you after your 10th victem.....

[Ichneumon]

The fighter wasn't really experienced in d20 dnd. I was, I had played for years, this was his first game. I knew what I was doing, he didn't.

[Shraik]

I see why you have such disdain for psionics. They are broken in my opnion. Especially when given to a munchkin. I use psionics for RP stuff and thats it. I know someone who made his character so powerful at level twenty-two that a group of level twenty-ones would need to fight him to their own dying breaths. It was ridiculous. I say Psionics is good if you don't let them munchkin.
Otherwise, Burn the Damn Psions.

[Azerian Kelimon]

By 21, ANY fullcaster has raped and mutilated the game aleph 1 times without breaking a sweat. 22 is worse, naturally. Epic is no place for comparisons.

Believe me, psionics aren't broken, or at least, much less than arcane and divine magic.

[CactusAir]

You're complaining the psionics is overpowered because Psion >> warmage?

For crying out loud. Adept >> warmage.

Mechanics and Fluff alike agree. Warmage is a NPC class.

[Chronicled]

I see why you have such disdain for psionics. They are broken in my opnion. Especially when given to a munchkin. I use psionics for RP stuff and thats it. I know someone who made his character so powerful at level twenty-two that a group of level twenty-ones would need to fight him to their own dying breaths. It was ridiculous. I say Psionics is good if you don't let them munchkin.
Otherwise, Burn the Damn Psions.

Were you playing with 2E or 3.0 rules? Otherwise, psionics tend to be much more balanced than any arcane caster.

Also, almost any epic character, properly munchkined, could do what you described to a group of non-powergamers.

[an kobold]

Mechanically, I have no real beef with them.

Flavor wise, for me, psionics are more of a scifi element than a fantasy element. It really depends on what sort of flavor I want in a campaign/world, then I choose magic or psionics to let players use. Whichever is not chosen is nonexistent for the world.

[Shraik]

Most of Us were munchkined. The thing is this guy was like this for the whole group from level 12. He was group leader by the fact he could do crazy stuff out of his arse

[DiscipleofBob]

Eeehm, nowhere, the NPC didn't just steal. She did it because the she wanted the wilder to be civil. I assume the NPC had a reason to do it, and incinerating someone in the middle of an argument is wholly impolite.

Well, if you'd like a full explanation, here we go...

Party goes on the Lightning Rail (Eberron of course) to Sharn. Wilder is off sulking at the bar. Lady comes up and starts flirting with him. (High Charisma and all) Wilder... ignored the lady, who is actually a high-ranking member of one of the major Sharn criminal organizations. So to get back, she steals 30 gp in a sleight of hand. Wilder realizes he lost the money through metagaming... "Me: By the way, subtract 30 gp from your gold. Wilder: That Bitch!" And proceeds to go on a witch-hunt. Wilder gets the guards to help, who do so until learning exactly who the thief is. After explaining EXACTLY who this woman is and why they don't want to arrest her on fear of their families being slaughtered, woman offers to give back money if Wilder will sit down and speak politely at dinner. Wilder says no and proceeds to present a fully augmented Wild Surge Energy Ray (or something of that name), citing that since he hid the display of his powers that she'd be flat-footed as well. Combat starts. What party is present is rushing over to stop him, but it's too late. The woman grapples the wilder since she's unarmed, but apparently that doesn't stop the Wilder. One more similarly augmented ray later and she's charcoal on the carpet.

[Draz74]

Gangster with no decent bodyguard? She deserved to die. :smalltongue:

EDIT: Next time, don't tell your guy he's missing 30 gold until he actually does something where he might notice his quantity of coins. If the player is that horrible at avoiding metagaming.

[Azerian Kelimon]

That guy evidently was playing a CE or Chaotic Insane at heart. That's not how a sane person acts period.

[Rachel Lorelei]

Did he make the DC 20+ Concentration check? If so, that's fair. An offensive-output-focused character managed to kill an HP-low (rogue-type) NPC in a couple of rounds--I'm not sure what your beef is with that. Would it be OK if he was a Fighter, Power Attacked her, and smeared her in half with his magical greatsword?

The player was being lame, mind you, but that's hardly psionics' fault.


Shraik--most of you were either really bad at making powerful characters, or the Psion was making things up (or ignoring the part about how he can't spend more PP than his Manifester Level at a time). 3.5 psionics is much less powerful than arcane magic.

Cactus: Adept >> Warmage? Come on. Warmages aren't great, but they're not THAT bad. They have a solid offense, can take Arcane Disciple and Eclectic Learning to up versatility a bit, and have more battlefield control with Pyrotechnics and Stinking Cloud and Sleet Storm and Black Tentacles than people tend to think. They're not that bad.

[Shraik]

On the Wilder thing, here is a note about Wilder's:
They are Emos. On crack. With mind powers. A combination that equals bad. I Decided i wanted to play a wilder, read on the class, and immediatley thought Emo on crack with mind powers.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Nah, It's more like a combination of Hedgehogs dilemma applied to oneself and the classic trope of standing up after a massive beating and getting a surge of energy.

[kamikasei]

I'm just going to comment on one aspect of the OP, because it's something that comes up surprisingly often in discussions of psionics and I just don't get it: "I hate psionics, because a psion I played with cheated". Or more to the point, "psionics is broken because..." (see above).

Okay, if you've gotten burned by cheating players and it's created a bad association or left you with the impression that psionics attracts cheaters, that's understandable. But I cannot understand people who say that something is broken or horrible because someone cheated. Anything can break the game if you break the rules while using it.

[Chronicled]

Well, if you'd like a full explanation, here we go...

Party goes on the Lightning Rail (Eberron of course) to Sharn. Wilder is off sulking at the bar. Lady comes up and starts flirting with him. (High Charisma and all) Wilder... ignored the lady, who is actually a high-ranking member of one of the major Sharn criminal organizations. So to get back, she steals 30 gp in a sleight of hand. Wilder realizes he lost the money through metagaming... "Me: By the way, subtract 30 gp from your gold. Wilder: That Bitch!" And proceeds to go on a witch-hunt. Wilder gets the guards to help, who do so until learning exactly who the thief is. After explaining EXACTLY who this woman is and why they don't want to arrest her on fear of their families being slaughtered, woman offers to give back money if Wilder will sit down and speak politely at dinner. Wilder says no and proceeds to present a fully augmented Wild Surge Energy Ray (or something of that name), citing that since he hid the display of his powers that she'd be flat-footed as well. Combat starts. What party is present is rushing over to stop him, but it's too late. The woman grapples the wilder since she's unarmed, but apparently that doesn't stop the Wilder. One more similarly augmented ray later and she's charcoal on the carpet.

This sounds like a problem player, not a problem class/system. Draz74 is right that you probably shouldn't have mentioned the 30 missing gold, or immediately ruled that since he didn't know about it in character, that it would be out of character for him to hunt her down. If he insisted on doing it, either say no and move on, or dock him xp for metagaming.

[AslanCross]

Currently running the Eberron adventure Hell's Heart. The Psion blaster (Kineticist) is doing an excellent job---she doesn't outshine any of the other damage dealers--the Crusader and Duskblade in the party do just as well. The only one who sort of gets left behind is the Ranger (archer) because many of the encounters are in close quarters.

I really don't see anything broken with 3.5E Psionics.

[Thinker]

Well, if you'd like a full explanation, here we go...

Party goes on the Lightning Rail (Eberron of course) to Sharn. Wilder is off sulking at the bar. Lady comes up and starts flirting with him. (High Charisma and all) Wilder... ignored the lady, who is actually a high-ranking member of one of the major Sharn criminal organizations. So to get back, she steals 30 gp in a sleight of hand. Wilder realizes he lost the money through metagaming... "Me: By the way, subtract 30 gp from your gold. Wilder: That Bitch!" And proceeds to go on a witch-hunt. Wilder gets the guards to help, who do so until learning exactly who the thief is. After explaining EXACTLY who this woman is and why they don't want to arrest her on fear of their families being slaughtered, woman offers to give back money if Wilder will sit down and speak politely at dinner. Wilder says no and proceeds to present a fully augmented Wild Surge Energy Ray (or something of that name), citing that since he hid the display of his powers that she'd be flat-footed as well. Combat starts. What party is present is rushing over to stop him, but it's too late. The woman grapples the wilder since she's unarmed, but apparently that doesn't stop the Wilder. One more similarly augmented ray later and she's charcoal on the carpet.

So he made the high concentration check? If so, that's fair. Was she a character with at least 4 levels in rogue? If so she still would have retained her dex modifier, regardless of being flatfooted. Also realize, while grappled the grappled characters retain their dex bonus to AC to each other, just not to other opponents.

[ForzaFiori]

Well, if you'd like a full explanation, here we go...

Party goes on the Lightning Rail (Eberron of course) to Sharn. Wilder is off sulking at the bar. Lady comes up and starts flirting with him. (High Charisma and all) Wilder... ignored the lady, who is actually a high-ranking member of one of the major Sharn criminal organizations. So to get back, she steals 30 gp in a sleight of hand. Wilder realizes he lost the money through metagaming... "Me: By the way, subtract 30 gp from your gold. Wilder: That Bitch!" And proceeds to go on a witch-hunt. Wilder gets the guards to help, who do so until learning exactly who the thief is. After explaining EXACTLY who this woman is and why they don't want to arrest her on fear of their families being slaughtered, woman offers to give back money if Wilder will sit down and speak politely at dinner. Wilder says no and proceeds to present a fully augmented Wild Surge Energy Ray (or something of that name), citing that since he hid the display of his powers that she'd be flat-footed as well. Combat starts. What party is present is rushing over to stop him, but it's too late. The woman grapples the wilder since she's unarmed, but apparently that doesn't stop the Wilder. One more similarly augmented ray later and she's charcoal on the carpet.

all of that is possible, provided the Wilder made some Concentration checks. There is one to hide the display of powers (DC20+power level iirc) and an equal one to manifest in a grapple. If you can do that, then yea, its all legal.

but i mean, another caster could do the same thing. A couple of Lightning bolts or scorching rays would probably toast someone too, and i'm pretty sure they can both be cast out of a grapple with a concentration check.

[cupkeyk]

I have to agree with the wilder, that bitch deserved to die. 30gp is a lot of money. A month's stay in an inn's common room with good meals is 30gp. Most people don't have that luxury. It was a very rational action for having been stolen from for so much under the pretense that they want to talk to you over dinner. That's entrapment with gross manipulation. She deserved to die.

As you may notice, the wilder is similarly unarmed. Why would a wilder underestimate an unarmed person. She could have been a reaping mauler. We once had a running gag with my wizard, a monk and a druid and the guards would call out to us, drop your weapons...

[Mojo_Rat]

I dont personally like psionics either. Its always been one of those things that I thought interacted poorly in a magical unverse. However my opinion is biased through contact with both 1st edition and 2nd edition psionics neither of which had any close contact with balanced.

It seems to me that The only real issue though witht he new version is that It is problematic when A new concept such as PP is introuced to a game without the rest of the game being designed around it.

That said i agree with some of the posters that in the case of your wlder i think alot of the problem was the player. And in the case of the soul knife.. the roblemw as the player probly cheating.

[Nowhere Girl]

If psionics is broken because a player blatantly cheated (yes, using non-character knowledge is flat-out cheating), then with a little work, I can make a CW samurai broken. I'll just steal the DM's notes and maps and use the information to shortcut easily through the adventure. Ta da! Proof that samurai are overpowered!

As another poster pointed out, where was this rogue's Uncanny Dodge? Was initiative even rolled (you don't automatically get a surprise round just because you decide you want a fight before your would-be victim does)? What kind of idiotic supposedly important person was this, anyway, that the best she could do to make her point was lift a few coins?

I call sloppy DMing. Several highly avoidable mistakes were made, the worst of which was simply letting the player use non-character knowledge.

[Nowhere Girl]

but there is a vast difference in vadar, the second in command of a galactic spanning empire of evil and a mafia don who has hordes of people who know how to do that without getting caught and who have people bribed....and an adventurer.

Such as the fact that the adventurer, especially a full-caster adventurer, is vastly more powerful?

Or were you thinking of another difference?

[Azerian Kelimon]

No, it's more along the fact an adventurer can always be crushed by a DM. The Godfather was nigh untouchable, and only Palpatine and Obi Wan could challenge Vader.

[Nowhere Girl]

No, it's more along the fact an adventurer can always be crushed by a DM. The Godfather was nigh untouchable, and only Palpatine and Obi Wan could challenge Vader.

In Star Wars Saga, in an alternate universe, the DM could always crush Vader. Ditto the Godfather in D20 Modern. Either of them could take note of that and modify their behavior accordingly, but that would be ... bing! ... metagaming. Likewise, if the DM were to automatically react to their well-roleplayed megalomania by smashing them with a 20-sided die, that would be ... bing! ... wretchedly bad DMing.

Bear in mind that roleplaying is, essentially, interactive fiction. Megalomaniacs exist in fiction; therefore, megalomaniacs exist in roleplaying. They're not always appropriate in every game, but it's also not automatically bad to play your astonishingly powerful character as arrogant, or even as an outright jack***.

None of that has anything to do with what this particular player did, however. What he did was flat-out cheat.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Or, more appropiately, do something that ska-roos with the other players by putting them in a difficult situation.

My opinion on what had to be done with that player: Offer him to Crabthulhu as a sacrifice.

[Xuincherguixe]

I like Psionics. But fluff concerns might be a bit tricky. One could say that psionics and magic really are the same thing, but how this stuff is tapped into is different.

[Woot Spitum]

Wait, the NPC was a crimelord who would order the slaughter of the families of anyone who opposed her? Once you get past the important, plot-related NPC part, you have to realize that what the wilder did was commendable, possibly even heroic. Killing that crimelord might have derailed the story a bit, but in-game it made the world a better place.

The wilder should not be punished, he should be congratulated.

[Nowhere Girl]

Wait, the NPC was a crimelord who would order the slaughter of the families of anyone who opposed her? Once you get past the important, plot-related NPC part, you have to realize that what the wilder did was commendable, possibly even heroic. Killing that crimelord might have derailed the story a bit, but in-game it made the world a better place.

The wilder should not be punished, he should be congratulated.

Who gives a rat's behind? The point isn't whether what he did was "good" or "evil." At best, the action would have been neutral, since he was just randomly killing someone who stole from him, not deliberately ridding the town of a (supposedly) powerful crime lord. However, what the action actually was was cheating because it was done using knowledge the character could not have.

I have no problem with someone properly playing an irredeemably evil character. I do have a major problem with someone cheating, no matter how noble the character's actions might or might not be.

[Woot Spitum]

However, what the action actually was was cheating because it was done using knowledge the character could not have.The crimelord admitted to taking the wilder's money when confronted (otherwise, how could she offer to return it?) therefore, the wilder's suspicions were confirmed in-game. If the crimelord had denied everything (which she should have), then I'd have to say yes, that's metagaming.

It is also perfectly reasonable for the wilder to suspect her. Think about it, the only memorable stranger he's come into contact with recently kept trying to get uncomfortably close to him (and you have to be very close to pickpocket somone), and when he checks his pouch shortly afterwards, his money is gone. It would have definately been there when he paid for his drink, otherwise the bar owner wouldn't have let him leave. This means he can very quickly pinpoint the time when it was stolen. If he's been pickpocketed before he's going to be even more suspicious.

This doesn't even bring up the absurdity of taking thirty heavy coins off of someone without them noticing a thing. I think the wilder's actions were perfectly justified.

[DiscipleofBob]

Wait, the NPC was a crimelord who would order the slaughter of the families of anyone who opposed her? Once you get past the important, plot-related NPC part, you have to realize that what the wilder did was commendable, possibly even heroic. Killing that crimelord might have derailed the story a bit, but in-game it made the world a better place.

The wilder should not be punished, he should be congratulated.

Actually the only crime families she represented kept a lid on the crime and were cooperating with police so that it wasn't complete chaos everywhere in Sharn. She was also negotiating with other, less noble crime families so everyone could come to an agreement. She was chaotic good, and a practical saint aside from a history of pickpocketing and prostitution. The whole "kill you for touching her" thing comes from the reaction of the crime families, who would be severely crippled without her. In fact, it instead forced me to derail the main story a bit to set up some assassins.

Oh, also this is 30 gp out of a couple thousand that the PC's just got for accomplishing a big job, so it's not like he was hurting for money.

[ghost_warlock]

The crimelord admitted to taking the wilder's money when confronted (otherwise, how could she offer to return it?) therefore, the wilder's suspicions were confirmed in-game. If the crimelord had denied everything (which she should have), then I'd have to say yes, that's metagaming.

It is also perfectly reasonable for the wilder to suspect her. Think about it, the only memorable stranger he's come into contact with recently kept trying to get uncomfortably close to him (and you have to be very close to pickpocket somone), and when he checks his pouch shortly afterwards, his money is gone. It would have definately been there when he paid for his drink, otherwise the bar owner wouldn't have let him leave. This means he can very quickly pinpoint the time when it was stolen. If he's been pickpocketed before he's going to be even more suspicious.

This doesn't even bring up the absurdity of taking thirty heavy coins off of someone without them noticing a thing. I think the wilder's actions were perfectly justified.

Seconded.

@OP - If you really hate psionics so much, you only have to wait a few more months for 4e. Somehow, I doubt making a 4e psionics expansion is a priority for WotC so you won't have to deal with it in the new edition for a while. Personally, I'm hoping they releash a 4e psionics book, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

[Rachel Lorelei]

Disciple: regardless of the roleplay situation, I think the fact that what this Wilder in particular and psionics in general can do isn't all that impressive compared to arcane magic has been amply supported

[Draz74]

This doesn't even bring up the absurdity of taking thirty heavy coins off of someone without them noticing a thing. I think the wilder's actions were perfectly justified.

I believe that is brought up, and adequately covered, by the rules for the Sleight of Hand skill. Presumably the DM rolled a Spot check or similar roll for the Wilder. If that check failed, then assuming the Wilder didn't notice was more than reasonable.

If you have a problem with that, it has nothing to do with Psionics or this particular campaign, and only with the Sleight of Hand rules.

[CactusAir]

Cactus: Adept >> Warmage? Come on. Warmages aren't great, but they're not THAT bad. They have a solid offense, can take Arcane Disciple and Eclectic Learning to up versatility a bit, and have more battlefield control with Pyrotechnics and Stinking Cloud and Sleet Storm and Black Tentacles than people tend to think. They're not that bad.

I exagerrated a little but really not that much. Both the the fluff and mechancis put warmage on a NPC class level. (In a world where PC casters are kingdom saving heroes, Warmages are army grunts.)

I would take an Adept/Warweaver over a warmage anyday. Though neither is going to be a good choice unless you have 6+ players.

[Nowhere Girl]

It is also perfectly reasonable for the wilder to suspect her. Think about it, the only memorable stranger he's come into contact with recently

Maybe you should think about it. The wilder has no idea when those coins disappeared. It could have been in the past minute, or it could have been hours ago. Even if the wilder definitely has all of his coins in one pouch and definitely felt them all when he paid for his drink, he doesn't know which of the many noisy, milling-about patrons might have actually stolen his pouch. Nor does he instantly know he's lost 30 coins just because the DM told him to cross them off his character sheet. He might not notice for hours yet.

Oh wait, of course he will! He knows, and he knows right now! He knows because ...

... the player knows, but then ... that's ...

... metagaming. No, it's flat-out cheating. I would say, flatly, "no," and if the player pressed, we'd move on to "rocks fall, you die."

In fact, maybe skip straight to "rocks fall."

Or maybe just switch realities mid-stride. Suddenly, it was a random patron in the tavern, not the woman, who stole the coins. She didn't deny it because she wanted to make a point, not because she actually did steal from him. Maybe have him wanted by the authorities now for murder, since after all, what he did was murder.

"But I know you meant for her to be the one who stole from me!"

"Really? How do you know?"

"Because that's when you had me mark off the gold!"

"Uh-huh. How does your character know?"

"Uh, er, um ... I just felt my pouch just then."

"No."

And ... are you familiar with psion-killers?

[Woot Spitum]

The fact remains, the crimelord admitted to taking the money. After that, nothing else is important. The point where the DM could have stopped this is when the player decided to go after the crimelord, not after he's caught up with her.

EDIT: Yes, I am familiar with psion-killers. The crimelord who obviously needs to be able to protect herself from mentally unstable sociopaths with powerful psionic abilities? Not so much.

[lord_khaine]

And ... are you familiar with psion-killers?

despite the name most psions of the apropriate level should be able to grind a psion-killer to dust.

all it requires is having enough brains to pick a offensive style power that does not allow power resistance.

[Leon]

I hate psionics. Hate 'em. Hate everything about 'em.


Good for you, then dont play with the ruleset and stay away from games that have do and you'll be ok







<Had a longer more involved post but lot it to the vaguries of the internet>

[Solo]

I hate psionics. Hate 'em. Hate everything about 'em.



Ignorance leads to fear, fear leads to hatred, and hatred is but one path to the Dark Side.

[ALOR]

I used to hate Psionics as much as the OP. In most part it is due to fluff reasons. Psions just do not fit into my idea of fantasy. Especially not the established settings where it seems like they were just thrown in. I don't however mind them in less medevil settings; such as a modern setting, Dark sun (where they were intergrated into the setting from the begining) , ebberon(again they were included from the begining) and Plane Scape. I've come to be more understanding of Psionics recently although I still don't care for them in a typical fantasy setting.