Utopia

[graymachine]

What are so unique or clever ways to improve a society using magic? How advanced could a society get on just magic alone? To provide some parameters lets say that, generally, only 5th level spells and below are feasible for public works and that roughly 10% of the population are spellcasters.

[Xefas]

Well, obviously the best way is to use magic to punish/torture people until they're good aligned, and then kill them so they go to the Upper Planes, and then repeat for every living, redeemable, sentient being in the multiverse.

Finally, after this action has turned you Evil, and you're the last living creature, slap on a Helm of Opposite Alignment to become Good, and then commit suicide, so that everyone is forced into eternal bliss and happiness.

[graymachine]

Well, obviously the best way is to use magic to punish/torture people until they're good aligned, and then kill them so they go to the Upper Planes, and then repeat for every living, redeemable, sentient being in the multiverse.

Finally, after this action has turned you Evil, and you're the last living creature, slap on a Helm of Opposite Alignment to become Good, and then commit suicide, so that everyone is forced into eternal bliss and happiness.

While clever, I don't think that the goal of civilization is to die. Also, we're not necessarily talking about an individual caster here.

[Xefas]

While clever, I don't think that the goal of civilization is to die. Also, we're not necessarily talking about an individual caster here.

Well, your goal was simply to "improve society using magic", not to progress it.

I would say a society that has already known enough strife to appreciate perfect bliss, and then is set into perfect bliss, would be a pretty good society. Heck, after that, their souls are infused with the goodness of their Upper Plane of choice when they become a petitioner or whatever it's called. No one is even capable of doing anything wrong.

Plus, death is a lot less terrible when one's life is infinitesimally smaller than their afterlife. Why shouldn't a sufficiently enlightened society want to die? They'll have infinite time in infinitely better conditions to do whatever they wanted to do in life.

And that's why I like D&D's cosmology. No one has to be scared of their consciousness ceasing to exist after dieing. Death is more akin to stubbing your toe.

[Devils_Advocate]

Well, obviously the best way is to use magic to punish/torture people until they're good aligned, and then kill them so they go to the Upper Planes, and then repeat for every living, redeemable, sentient being in the multiverse.
... Um, are you kidding here? If so, I'm not sure I get the joke.

If not, how are you proposing to use punishment and torture to convert people to Good? And why use punishment and torture in particular, rather than some other means? Do you think that suffering makes people Good or something? :smallconfused:


And that's why I like D&D's cosmology. No one has to be scared of their consciousness ceasing to exist after dieing. Death is more akin to stubbing your toe.
Huh? Petitioners don't even retain memories of their mortal lives, or at least not many. So your petitioner isn't really you so much as a reincarnation of you.

Petitioners also don't last forever. They eventually join with their respective planes; that's pretty much the point. D&D's default cosmology does not feature an eternal afterlife.

[Winterwind]

Well, one pretty simple variant is being discussed in the thread about the effects of Create Food, Water and Fabricate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67644) right next door currently. :smallwink: