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Nowhere Girl
2007-12-25, 05:04 AM
The monk is allowed full wealth by level.

The wizard is naked, bound, gagged, has both eyes gouged out, and is not allowed a spellbook.

Discuss.

Xefas
2007-12-25, 05:07 AM
Well, Spell Mastery could solve the Spellbook problem, depending on what level we're starting at.

Are Prestige Classes allowed? Because with a few levels of Archmage, the Wizard could totally do it.

Demented
2007-12-25, 05:10 AM
The Monk gives the Wizard all his wealth in exchange for his life.
Match ends in a draw.

Fenix_of_Doom
2007-12-25, 05:10 AM
Yes, another monk vs wizard thread, just what I needed in the morning.

Well the wizard obviously needs still spell and silent spell, if he takes spell mastery and chooses some teleport effect to get away from the monk, he can then cast summon creature to release him from his bounds, there has to be a magical spell that grants sight, from there on he just needs to go kill some weaker creatures for loot, get some equipment and kill the monk.

Yami
2007-12-25, 05:17 AM
The monk, because he secretly took wizard at second level and never looked back.

Nowhere Girl
2007-12-25, 05:17 AM
Yes, another monk vs wizard thread, just what I needed in the morning.

I aim to please.

I'll post about how to fix casters next. I want to get a post complaining about ToB in, but it's too early to do that again yet.

Armads
2007-12-25, 05:17 AM
Has the wizard prepared his spells beforehand? Is this an arena setting (or a normal setting?)

Nowhere Girl
2007-12-25, 05:19 AM
Has the wizard prepared his spells beforehand? Is this an arena setting (or a normal setting?)

Consider everything I didn't specify to be variables you can play with to your heart's content, playing out different scenarios depending on location and whether the wizard has prepared or not, as well as whether the monk is going to run immediately, try to Diplomancy his way to victory, or stand and die fight.

Go nuts.

I'm off to bed. Have fun, guys!

cupkeyk
2007-12-25, 05:22 AM
she's prolly from 4chan

Emperor Demonking
2007-12-25, 05:24 AM
The wizard wins, he teleports out of the gags and other items, and then just wins.

Bag_of_Holding
2007-12-25, 05:47 AM
Well, if the monk is also naked, bound, gagged, has both eyes gouged out, and is not allowed to buy anything with her wealth, then I think it's pretty much a draw.

Kurald Galain
2007-12-25, 06:00 AM
The awesome samurai (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3660260&postcount=1) sneak attacks them both simultaneously, and wins.

Xefas
2007-12-25, 06:09 AM
Well, if the monk is also naked, bound, gagged, has both eyes gouged out, and is not allowed to buy anything with her wealth, then I think it's pretty much a draw.

Not even close. For one, the monk can try Escape Artist checks.

For two, the Wizard just Still Silent Dimension Doors away, casts Blindsight, and then Coup De Graces the Monk with...anything.

Having the Wizard completely naked, bound, gagged, and with both eyes gouged out, and the Monk perfectly fine is a trickier matter. You'd probably have to Dimension Door into the air, Quickened Fly, and then the NEXT round, cast Blindsight, and then the NEXT round, kill the Monk.

Armads
2007-12-25, 07:26 AM
Wizard (preparing all his spells before he got trapped) casts a Stilled Silent Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, trapping himself inside. Then he shatters the ropes, and laughs at the monk, then teleports to his wizard tower or something. Then he pays adventurers to go on a quest to kill the monk.

Cuddly
2007-12-25, 07:35 AM
Yeah, and then the wizard could teleport a sword into Tiamat's heart or something!!

Kaelik
2007-12-25, 10:20 AM
Yeah, and then the wizard could teleport a sword into Tiamat's heart or something!!

Are you serious? No one has yet suggested something against the rules. Archmage SLAs of Greater Teleport are pretty common. That alone automatically gets the Wizard back to his tower.

Jack_Simth
2007-12-25, 10:27 AM
I'll post about how to fix casters next.
It's the spells, not the casters; what do you think of My attempt (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67628) for the Core Sor/Wiz list?


Not even close. For one, the monk can try Escape Artist checks.

For two, the Wizard just Still Silent Dimension Doors away, casts Blindsight, and then Coup De Graces the Monk with...anything.

Having the Wizard completely naked, bound, gagged, and with both eyes gouged out, and the Monk perfectly fine is a trickier matter. You'd probably have to Dimension Door into the air, Quickened Fly, and then the NEXT round, cast Blindsight, and then the NEXT round, kill the Monk.You can't - DDoor into the air before the Quickened Fly, that is - the Conjuration school doesn't let you put something on a surface that won't support it:


A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it. The creature or object must appear within the spell’s range, but it does not have to remain within the range.(Emphasis added)

Roderick_BR
2007-12-25, 11:36 AM
The monk is allowed full wealth by level.

The wizard is naked, bound, gagged, has both eyes gouged out, and is not allowed a spellbook.

Discuss.

Wait, WHO trapped the wizard that way? It certainly was NOT the monk.

Ralfarius
2007-12-25, 11:50 AM
The monk, feeling the spirit of the season, releases the wizard from his bonds. Such a heartfelt gesture touches the wizard deeply, and he invites the monk and the monk's entire family into his magnificent mansion and they eat a wonderful dinner. The monk uses his WBL to distribute an array of thoughtful gifts to all present.

Conclusion: Everybody wins!

PirateMonk
2007-12-25, 12:01 PM
Wait, WHO trapped the wizard that way? It certainly was NOT the monk.

The DM, of course.

FlyMolo
2007-12-25, 12:52 PM
The DM, of course.

Using pseudonatural paragon divine minion tarrasques (sp?) as his emissaries.

And that world-ender template that was around here a minute ago.

Douglas
2007-12-25, 01:27 PM
You can't - DDoor into the air before the Quickened Fly, that is - the Conjuration school doesn't let you put something on a surface that won't support it:

Originally Posted by SRD, Magic Overview, Schools of Magic, Conjouration
A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it. The creature or object must appear within the spell’s range, but it does not have to remain within the range.

(Emphasis added)
Emphasis altered. The caster of DD is neither brought into being nor transported to his own location, so that clause does not apply.

Jack_Simth
2007-12-25, 01:56 PM
Emphasis altered. The caster of DD is neither brought into being nor transported to his own location, so that clause does not apply.
Your location has changes, but you're still a creature brought to your location.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-25, 03:03 PM
Easy. Can we build both characters as we pleasw with the condition that they must be level 20, and that at least 2/3's of their levels must be in the base class?

AmberVael
2007-12-25, 03:12 PM
A wizard prepared to be caught in such a manner could likely deal with it (if only by running away). However, given that he was caught in the first place, I'd say he is pretty well messed up. I'll grant that a wizard could be built that could overcome this, but a normal one in a campaign would, in all likelihood, be doomed.

Mojo_Rat
2007-12-25, 03:12 PM
This is an idiotic example. Really I suppose just to make fun of the monk. but here goes.

Monk wins initative. Monk stuns the wizard. Wizard looses. Its really that simple. Could it go another way? sure if the wizard has a bunch of idiotic spells prepped that No one really preps for being bound and gagged. and to be honest? my 'i win' example works if the Wizard is wide awake.

Sure monks are not the best but they are alot of fun to play. Ive never not enjoyed playing one.

Edited
Though it occurs to me by answeiring this seriously i may have fallen into a trap.

The Glyphstone
2007-12-25, 03:17 PM
This is an idiotic example. Really I suppose just to make fun of the monk. but here goes.

Monk wins initative. Monk stuns the wizard. Wizard looses. Its really that simple. Could it go another way? sure if the wizard has a bunch of idiotic spells prepped that No one really preps for being bound and gagged. and to be honest? my 'i win' example works if the Wizard is wide awake.

Sure monks are not the best but they are alot of fun to play. Ive never not enjoyed playing one.


Have you missed every previous thread on this topic? If so, good for you, they are a total wast of time.

The thing is, that doesnt happen with Shrodinger's Wizard. The monk can't win initiative because the Wizard uses Celerity. Even in core, the Wizard will likely have a higher Dex than the monk, thus the Wizard will be more likely to win initiative - at which point the monk loses. Teleport isn't a stupid spell, it's a spell any non-moronic wizard will have memorized...A Stilled Silent Teleport is a bit more situational, but I suppose a sufficiently paranoid wizard would have one available.

EDIT: Yes, I believe this thread is a joke...

Kaelik
2007-12-25, 03:25 PM
This is an idiotic example. Really I suppose just to make fun of the monk. but here goes.

Monk wins initative. Monk stuns the wizard. Wizard looses. Its really that simple. Could it go another way? sure if the wizard has a bunch of idiotic spells prepped that No one really preps for being bound and gagged. and to be honest? my 'i win' example works if the Wizard is wide awake.

Sure monks are not the best but they are alot of fun to play. Ive never not enjoyed playing one.

Edited
Though it occurs to me by answeiring this seriously i may have fallen into a trap.

Archmage SLA of Greater Teleport is all the preparation ever needed for anything. (Also quite common.)

Also, the Wizard has an almost even chance of winning init if he took Improved Init. He might also have one of his 40hr duration spells that gives immunity to stunning up, he might also be a Necropolitian, he might also make the fort save.

Trust us, Wizards are infinitely better then Monks, and the most common builds have ways out of most situations.

Mojo_Rat
2007-12-25, 03:37 PM
Thats alot of 'might haves's int hat statement though and starts to getinto the PRC issue. The example wasnt a Monk vs an archmage it was a monk vs a wizard.

So it seems my statement stands fairly sound in that the Wizard could surivive if he has theoretical spells prepared ahead of time. wheere as the Monk does not need any theoretical preperation ahead of time . ITs a stupid example intended to humiliate the monk.

Is the class perfect? No but you would be amazed that Lots of oeple dont play the way the people on here or the wizards forums Do.. Im not trying to be antagonistic but these sorts of examples just get on my nerves.

Fenix_of_Doom
2007-12-25, 03:42 PM
Easy. Can we build both characters as we pleasw with the condition that they must be level 20, and that at least 2/3's of their levels must be in the base class?

20 level is very advantageous to the wizard, so it should be easy, you can only have 7 prc levels, that's okee(I don't think you need any at all), spell mastery is superior to archmage anyway and 7 levels is all you need for initiate of the seven cheeses.
So:
Human
Wizard(general):9
Iotsv:7
Wizard:4
INT:18 start, 5 level boosts 5 inherent bonus(wish,tomb, whatever)=28
rest:unimportant
Feats:
H:still spell
1:silent spell
3:whatever Iotsv needs
(W)5: quicken spell
6: see 3
9: see 3, if not needed Arcane Thesis:fly
12:spell mastery(fly, Summon Monster VI, Shatter, some fun other spells)
15:Arcane Thesis:Greater Teleport
17(W):spell mastery(Time Stop, Greater Teleport, some lvl 6-7-8-9 save or die effects)
18:something fun

If the monk can get close enough to you before it's you turn, cast some Iotsv veil as immediate action.
So you cast quickened, still, silenced fly, teleport somewhere the monk can't find you, still, silenced shatter or summon monster, now rest, prepare spells, maybe cast greater arcane sight and/or Blindsight and other buffs.
Find monk, disjunction monk, cast Save or Die spells at monk from a safe distance until he dies.

good enough?

Spiryt
2007-12-25, 03:50 PM
ITs a stupid example intended to humiliate the monk.



Monk doesn't need any more humilation. He's very badly written, and thus very weak.

I always found this class stupid, so it's not problem for me, but people who actuallly like monk are in trouble. See numerous monk fixes in Homebrew section.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-12-25, 03:51 PM
Nah, even easier...

Round 1: Wizard Still Silent Shatters his bonds
Monk attacks wizard
Contingency Celerity upon my being the target of an attack or effect, use the action granted by celerity to cast Sudden Maximize Time Stop

Round 1) Wizard has traded his familiar to gain access to one domain (CompDivine). He chose the Healing domain, and casts Heal on himself to cure himself of his blindness.

Round 2) Wizard casts Gaseous Form to become completely immune to the Monk's attacks

Round 3) Forcecage around the Monk

Round 4) Dimension Lock around the forcecage so he can't ethereal out.

Time Begins

Wizard now has all the time in the world to use Quicked True Stike / Twin Ray Empowered Enervation on the Monk until he gains more negative levels than he has levels and dies a horrid death.

Aquillion
2007-12-25, 03:52 PM
Ooo, ooo, I have a better example!

Level 20 monk vs. level 1 wizard who did not so much take his first level in 'wizard' as he did in 'commoner' but who tries really hard.

I think the monk could win then. Probably.

MalachorWraith
2007-12-25, 04:12 PM
I think there needs to be a definitive level for both characters. Obviously at level 1 the monk destroys the wizard with a swift kick to the throat. Are they epic? Is the wizard even aware of the threat? How far away from the monk is the wizard? These questions need to be answered, especially by those of us who are pro-monk. I mean ****, the monk has to be able to use some magical items to destroy this wizard. Anyone know some high quality dimensional anchor-spell like ability items? This is all about the first 1-3 rounds. If the monk can grapple the wizard, he can break his neck and be done with this.

Reel On, Love
2007-12-25, 04:34 PM
I think there needs to be a definitive level for both characters. Obviously at level 1 the monk destroys the wizard with a swift kick to the throat.

At first level the monk has either a 50% chance or so of winning initiative OR of hitting the wizard (he's either putting a 16 in STR and a lower score in DEX, or putting it in DEX and he can't have Weapon Finesse yet).
If he hits him, doing 1d6+3 (let's say he went STR) vs. a Wizard's 6 HP, he still only has a 2/3s chance of KOing him. 2/3 * 50% = 1/3 chance of winning each round.

Meanwhile, the Monk's Will save is +4 or 5. That means the Wizard has a 50% chance to Color Spray the monk in the face, and after that he can just slit his throat. The wizard has a 50% chance of winning each round.

The wizard is likely to have a slightly higher dex, giving him a slight Initiative advantage on top of that.

Mojo_Rat
2007-12-25, 05:01 PM
*sigh* Here goes

1) can the Wizard avoid never being touched by the monk a /single/ time (Honestly i dont think the answer to this is yes)

2) Your proposed wizard only has a 50% chance of any spell resistance based spell working ons aid monk

3) you assume the wizard can stay out of the monks reach ad infinitum. given Dimension door going ethereal Monk by this level mooving 100+ feet in a single move action + any items that give fly or other stuff.

Look.. wizards are strong debatably the strongest class int he game and Monks do have their issues. But the part about this argument ignores something.

in a 1 on 1 fight monks are honestly one of the hardest classes in the game to kill. Between Spellr esistance and Obsceen Saves even if you dont go the 'monk can probly kill te wizard really quickly' rout There is a good chance hes going to save against /every spell the wizard casts/

The game isnt balanced for PVP and you dont even have to make a monk who is soley designed to kill a wizard in the same way That You have to make a wizard who is specifically designed to a) escape being gagged and bound and blindfolded for this sepecific fight and b) has every spell for that requirement memorizd at this moment.

And then honestly i dont think its gartoneed hes going to win if everything goes the wisards way. I thin k the premis of the argument is broken and treats the monk class like its some sort of three year old child. Which has no basis in fact.

edit the above was inr esponse to a lvl 20 wizard somone proposed. Didnt realize how many replies the post got while iw as writing.

Nowhere Girl
2007-12-25, 05:20 PM
Okay, what if we also remove the wizard's arms and legs?

So a naked, armless, legless, eyeless, bound and gagged wizard with no spellbook. Did we get the monk any closer yet?

Nowhere Girl
2007-12-25, 05:21 PM
she's prolly from 4chan

NO U

:smallbiggrin:

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-25, 05:22 PM
If the Wizzo has Greater Teleport as a SLA, no.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-12-25, 05:39 PM
Okay, what if we also remove the wizard's arms and legs?

So a naked, armless, legless, eyeless, bound and gagged wizard with no spellbook. Did we get the monk any closer yet?

This would be trickier, as it would require a Still, Silent Heal (8th level spell) to be able to completely heal himself. However, still no good as my previous combo is still a guarenteed win for the wizard.

Contingency + Celerity + Sudden Maximize Time Stop = Win. There is no way around this combo. There is no way to negate or defeat this combo. No matter what happens, it will go off the instant the monk tries to do anything to the wizard.

Any situation the Wizard is put in, short of actually being deceased, can be gotten out of just as easily.

Arbitrarity
2007-12-25, 05:46 PM
Actually, regenerate.

Also, the Wizard may die, but his clone comes back and owns the monk. Hard.

Mr.Moron
2007-12-25, 06:13 PM
Somehow I doubt this topic was meant to be taken too seriously, given the subject, it's history and who the OP is.

That said, if we're going to be ridiculous about the conditions, why don't we take a few steps further eh?

The wizard's body is not only, armless, legless, eye-gouged and deaf it's been given a lobotomy. In additional to the physical damage the wizard's soul has been displaced from it's body and bound inside magical item specially designed to do so.

For the purposes of the level of containment, the power of the item binding it is strong enough that it would need it's own classification 2-3 steps above major artifact.

This item is undetectable. Additionally, it blinks in and out of existence randomly somewhere within an infinite plane, filled with hazards and hostile creatures the weakest of which are at least as strong as demigods. The distance between each point it appears is a number too large to be expressed by any form of mathematics yet invented! Also, the interval of time between blinks is likewise too small to be expressed.

As for the monk, he has ascended past his mortal form and now is deity with at least a triple-digit divine rank and full influence over every portfolio. He has fused with an supreme omni-plane encompassing all other planes; making him, quite literally the multiverse personified.

EDIT: Of course, he still has his monk class levels. I mean, we don't want to be silly about this.

Yes, Yes. I know, "The Wizard Wins" at least this way he'll have to break a sweat. Ok, no that was a bit extreme he has a chance of breaking a sweat.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-25, 06:16 PM
No, he doesn't unless...

It's Pun-Pun, who has levels of wizard and was unfazed by this. Then, he wins.

Rachel Lorelei
2007-12-25, 06:54 PM
Pun-Pun is both a wizard AND a monk. How can this be? PARADOX!

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-25, 06:56 PM
Yep, the original one needed levels in wizzo or sorc for a familiar. The little guy has Teh Powah.

Sir Giacomo
2007-12-25, 07:22 PM
The monk is allowed full wealth by level.

The wizard is naked, bound, gagged, has both eyes gouged out, and is not allowed a spellbook.

Discuss.

Cute. But probably not 100% safe win for monk (hardly anything is). Assuming lvl 20 on both sides: It depends on spell mastery feat(s), what carefully worded contingency is on and with what 1-6th level spell chosen.

All other cases, monk wins (hint: AMF is up).

- Giacomo

Fenix_of_Doom
2007-12-25, 07:35 PM
1) can the Wizard avoid never being touched by the monk a /single/ time (Honestly i dont think the answer to this is yes)

Depends on the distance between them, if the monk is close enough to move in then he always has a chance to thanks to auto success on a 20. In my case he has to win initiative(let's say 50%), make two saves(again 50% each for convenience) and then hit you with stunning fist and then you have to fail(95% chance on hitting, 75% chance of failing save). all in all he has 9% chance of killing the wizard and about 75% of dieing/getting hurt badly from the veils, I like my chances.



2) Your proposed wizard only has a 50% chance of any spell resistance based spell working ons aid monk


Assuming this worst case senario in which you do not have feats to spare for spell penetration or items for caster level increasing items, but that's not a problem as the wizard gets to spend all his daily spells at a single monk, he has to fail both spell resistance and a save sometime.



3) you assume the wizard can stay out of the monks reach ad infinitum. given Dimension door going ethereal Monk by this level mooving 100+ feet in a single move action + any items that give fly or other stuff.

100 feet, impressive, I've got phantom steed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/phantomSteed.htm), although I didn't specifically mentioned it because at that point I figuered I had a practical win.

Edit:


in a 1 on 1 fight monks are honestly one of the hardest classes in the game to kill. Between Spellr esistance and Obsceen Saves even if you dont go the 'monk can probly kill te wizard really quickly' rout There is a good chance hes going to save against /every spell the wizard casts/

The game isnt balanced for PVP and you dont even have to make a monk who is soley designed to kill a wizard in the same way That You have to make a wizard who is specifically designed to a) escape being gagged and bound and blindfolded for this sepecific fight and b) has every spell for that requirement memorizd at this moment.


Hard to kill only makes sure it takes more time, without offensive abilities it's pretty worthless. Save against every spell? Not gonna happen, just look at the amount of spells a 20th level wizard has. And even if the monk does survive all those spells, the wizard can just come back tomorrow.

That my wizard build is unrealistic is true, I'd never build my wizard like that, but then again the situation is also very unrealistic, so that's just what it takes.

horseboy
2007-12-25, 09:05 PM
"And so it has come full circle. When I last saw this thread I was but a student, now I am the Master!"

Shraik
2007-12-25, 09:32 PM
Level one Half-celestial/human Monk with monks belt. It comes out with Monk as victor easily

Kaelik
2007-12-25, 09:37 PM
spell mastery is superior to archmage anyway

I highly object to this statement. Spell Mastery, no matter when you take it isn't going to compare to a Spellbook. Spell Mastery is only going to be used to get to a spellbook.

Archmage High Arcana gives up a 5th and 7th level slot to get two 7th level SLAs. This gives you:

1) Net increase in spell slots.
2) Something to use fro your teleport needs.
3) Doesn't take an hour to prepare if you wake up in the morning without a spellbook.
4) Remove all components.

Notice that you built a whole Wizard to beat this situation. Notice that a single Archmage High Arcana auto-wins the whole encounter. Without seeing it coming.

Your build is very specific. Whereas an Archmage SLA of Greater Teleport is something I have on approximately 3/4ths of my Wizards.

Mr.Moron
2007-12-25, 09:55 PM
No, he doesn't unless...
\

Oh come on! I'm sure there it at least some chance of him having to struggle a little.Yeah, I know, it's a wizard but saying "No, he doesn't" to even the chance of him breaking a sweat is probably giving a tad too much credit to the class.

SpiderKoopa
2007-12-25, 11:42 PM
*Snip.*
As for the monk, he has ascended past his mortal form and now is deity with at least a triple-digit divine rank and full influence over every portfolio. He has fused with an supreme omni-plane encompassing all other planes; making him, quite literally the multiverse personified.
*Snip.*


This reminds me of a joke my friends and I snicker at from time to time.
PC1(is a class other than monk): "Say there, PC2, what does your god do?":smallconfused:
PC2(is a monk follower of, you guessed it, the god of monks): :smallfrown: "Acts as house shoes for a real god."

As for who wins, the wizard does obviously. Haven't you read the threads on this forum? Wizard == win. Duh.:smallamused:

Talic
2007-12-26, 01:35 AM
Wizard is a Vampire too.

He goes Gaseous Form, allows Fast Healing to heal his eyeballs, and proceeds to whip the monk's butt, even with the LA for vamp lowering his caster level.

MalachorWraith
2007-12-26, 02:35 AM
At first level the monk has either a 50% chance or so of winning initiative OR of hitting the wizard (he's either putting a 16 in STR and a lower score in DEX, or putting it in DEX and he can't have Weapon Finesse yet).
If he hits him, doing 1d6+3 (let's say he went STR) vs. a Wizard's 6 HP, he still only has a 2/3s chance of KOing him. 2/3 * 50% = 1/3 chance of winning each round.

Meanwhile, the Monk's Will save is +4 or 5. That means the Wizard has a 50% chance to Color Spray the monk in the face, and after that he can just slit his throat. The wizard has a 50% chance of winning each round.

The wizard is likely to have a slightly higher dex, giving him a slight Initiative advantage on top of that.

No, the Wizard doesn't have the ability to get out of his bonds on first round or anyway to see. At level 1, the Wizard doesn't have the ability to do anything while bound and gagged. The monk charges him and kicks him in the throat. He has to roll over a 1 to hit. Edit*The Wizard* is bound and gagged (he cannot stand, he is prone which gives a +4 in melee, the monk charges which is +2, and his strength is more than likely +3, the Wizard does not receive his dex bonus to AC). The Wizard more than likely has HP between 5-10 depending on whether or not he has toughness. If the Wizard doesn't go unconscious on the first round, he's not making it out on the second.

That's an argument for first level. I'm sure you could probably make it for additional levels.

Aquillion
2007-12-26, 03:00 AM
Don't forget the things the wizard can do with Gate abuse. By wording a more involved service, the wizard can set up a deal with an outsider to save them if they're ever in trouble. It'll be expensive (they'll have to offer a fair trade for it), but since they only have to pay after the service has been completed, they can word it carefully to ensure that they have everything they lost back by the time it's done, so they can easily pay. It's like a super-contingency... one simple service is "check every month to see if I've died, been imprisoned, or otherwise rendered helpless, and if I've been in that state for more than a month, see to it that I get freed, True Resurrected, and whatever else is necessary to restore me to my full health and powers in this secret place from which I can, through methods known to me, access my hideout and pay you for these services."

As noted, you don't have to pay if it never comes into effect, and if it does come into effect you'll have to pay fair market value for all the spells involved... but it makes it essentially impossible to kill the wizard for good. Even a Sphere of Annihilation might not cut it, since there's a good chance that the top creatures a Wiz 20 can access will be able to pull a favor from a minor Deity to bring the wizard back (paying for that could be tricky, but it'll be better than being dead. Probably.)

And Gate can bring in anything up to twice their HD, which means that the level 20 monk will have to beat a 40-HD creature to get at the wizard... that isn't happening.

VeisuItaTyhjyys
2007-12-26, 03:33 AM
Necropolitan swamshifter. The first one he just has to make up the level, since he loses one, so he's still twenty, just took him longer; it's not an LA. The second one is a 1 CR increase, which translates to half an LA. Let's up it to a full LA. Level 19 Wizard. He shifts into a swarm. Doesn't matter how many limbs he's missing.
Now, he eats the monk alive, because the monk doesn't have any spells, and thus plain and simply cannot harm him. The monk either stays trapped in the swarm, and dies, or flees the wizard, thus allowing the wizard to fix himself up and kill the monk later. There's nothing the monk can do about it, either.

Armads
2007-12-26, 03:42 AM
That only works if the Wizard's a PC, because Swarmshifter cannot be applied to PCs (and the CR thing doesn't actually affect ECL).

Sir Giacomo
2007-12-26, 04:49 AM
@Aquillion:

Your gate use idea inspires me - it could be nicely used for a BBEG in a high-level campaign (i.e. some evil wizard who made a pact for your above contingencies to become sort of immortal...for a while).

For a pc, what you suggested is nigh impossible, though, for two simple reasons:
1) the DM likely will not use his fiat to allow a class invulnerability and
2) it would be too expensive, anyhow (i.e. use up a players' wealth) since the "deal" would need to be paid regardless if the contingencies ever came up - since basically a 34HD+ creature is on standby for the rest of the wizard's life - it is like an insurance!)

- Giacomo

Fenix_of_Doom
2007-12-26, 05:02 AM
I highly object to this statement. Spell Mastery, no matter when you take it isn't going to compare to a Spellbook. Spell Mastery is only going to be used to get to a spellbook.

Archmage High Arcana gives up a 5th and 7th level slot to get two 7th level SLAs. This gives you:

1) Net increase in spell slots.
2) Something to use fro your teleport needs.
3) Doesn't take an hour to prepare if you wake up in the morning without a spellbook.
4) Remove all components.

Notice that you built a whole Wizard to beat this situation. Notice that a single Archmage High Arcana auto-wins the whole encounter. Without seeing it coming.

Your build is very specific. Whereas an Archmage SLA of Greater Teleport is something I have on approximately 3/4ths of my Wizards.

When I said it was superior I meant for this situation only, I would have taken a couple levels in archmage if it wasn't for the 2/3 wizard levels rule I agreed to. The most specific things about my build are the still/silent spell feats, I personally never take them, whit out them you don't need arcane thesis and I could have probably done all the spells I needed with one spell mastery.

You are right about the rest BTW.

deadseashoals
2007-12-26, 05:13 AM
If you're naked, you can't use contingency. You won't have the focus.

The wizard wins anyway, as the greater teleport SLA is not a Schroedinger's wizard corner case, but is actually, as Kaelik said, a common and effective way of making sure you always have an out. So he teleports away, and if it's still important to kill the monk, he can do that after getting unbound, putting on some clothes, and getting a cleric to cast regenerate on him.

Emperor Demonking
2007-12-26, 06:50 AM
Its a draw against the overdiety, as overdeties can't attack mortals.

Patashu
2007-12-26, 07:00 AM
Its a draw against the overdiety, as overdeties can't attack mortals.

Why not? Not even indirectly?

Felius
2007-12-26, 08:48 AM
Where it say they can't? It says they don't bother usually, but just that.

Aquillion
2007-12-26, 06:33 PM
@Aquillion:

Your gate use idea inspires me - it could be nicely used for a BBEG in a high-level campaign (i.e. some evil wizard who made a pact for your above contingencies to become sort of immortal...for a while).

For a pc, what you suggested is nigh impossible, though, for two simple reasons:
1) the DM likely will not use his fiat to allow a class invulnerability and
2) it would be too expensive, anyhow (i.e. use up a players' wealth) since the "deal" would need to be paid regardless if the contingencies ever came up - since basically a 34HD+ creature is on standby for the rest of the wizard's life - it is like an insurance!)I can actually see a DM allowing it.

By RAW, you don't pay until the task is entirely complete, so even though it's expensive, you don't actually pay to keep it on standby (all its being on standby entails is it casting a Sending or something similar once a month anyway. So make the players pay fair value for that if it's a sticking point... although, per RAW, you don't pay until the entire task is discharged.) The real costs don't come up until the creature is actually called on to bring you back, and the way Gate is worded you definitely do not have to pay for that in advance. (Of course, you do have to pay 1000 xp in advance.)

But, more importantly, there's really only one way that this 'contingency' could ever come into play: A TPK. And as you noted, the players will have to pay very, very dearly to bring them back (another part of how gate is worded could let the DM use it as a plot hook). As a DM, I could certainly see allowing this as a way of avoiding a TPK... but the players would then be 'out of the frying pan and into the fire', since they'd have to pay the creature's price, do some mission for it if they can't (or won't), or risk having it grab them and drag them someplace terrible to serve it for the rest of eternity, so they might be better off dead.

And they can't really complain, since they're the ones who set it up, and Gate makes it very clear that those are the risks. This gate trick is basically the players impaling themselves on a virtually inescapable plot hook for you. What DM would turn it down?

(You also have a built-in answer for why everyone doesn't do the same thing: Who would want to risk it? If you fail to pay something that powerful, you might actually be better off dead. But it's not a Schrödinger's Wizard thing, either; it involves only a small initial investment, and protects against nearly anything.)

mockingbyrd7
2007-12-26, 09:07 PM
They're both level 1, the wizard is a gnome and thus has only one feat. The monk punches the blind, mute, spell-less wizard in the stomach and the wizard dies.

Really, you can change the circumstances in any way that you want, in whomever's favor you want, therefore this thread is silly and doesn't actually prove anything.

(It's still fun though.)

Parvum
2007-12-26, 09:44 PM
Apology for what may very well be a newbish question, but on the general topic of monk vs. wizard... what about grappling?

A monk specialized in grappling can be lethal, correct? And, not being exactly feat-starved, they can afford miscellaneous anti-magic feats. My knowledge of all spells is limited, so there may be an anti-grapple spell I'm not aware of, but otherwise most whole casters seem screwed within arms reach of a grappling monk.

(If there is an anti-grapple spell in existence, I conclude that there is nothing that can beat magic other than more magic and declare everything that isn't a wizard knockoff to be inefficient and should be turned into a coloured foodstuff immediately)

Aquillion
2007-12-26, 11:10 PM
Apology for what may very well be a newbish question, but on the general topic of monk vs. wizard... what about grappling?

A monk specialized in grappling can be lethal, correct? And, not being exactly feat-starved, they can afford miscellaneous anti-magic feats. My knowledge of all spells is limited, so there may be an anti-grapple spell I'm not aware of, but otherwise most whole casters seem screwed within arms reach of a grappling monk.

(If there is an anti-grapple spell in existence, I conclude that there is nothing that can beat magic other than more magic and declare everything that isn't a wizard knockoff to be inefficient and should be turned into a coloured foodstuff immediately)Spell-like abilities have no components, including verbal and somatic components; and you can take purely mental actions (like those) freely even while grappled or otherwise bound. So a wizard who has Teleport as a SLA (fairly common, not just for being bound but because it's such a useful spell in general) can escape from a grapple no problem. They can cast any stilled silent spells they have, too, although that's a bit less common. (Notably, dimension door just needs to be silent since it has no somatic or material components, so if someone has silent spell there's a good chance they'll have a silenced dimension door prepared just in case, to teleport out of silences and so on.) A contingency can also go off when grappled, of course.

Also, absent some very odd setup it's going to be rare to get close enough to grapple a wizard anyway.

And, while this doesn't really relate to the current fight so much, monks just aren't that good at grappling... the 15 BAB hurts, while fighters can easily take Improved Grapple themselves. A monk's saves, SR, and movement don't matter so much for this, since if the wizard gets an action they're just going to fly away, teleport hopelessly out of grapple range, set up some sort of defense, or whatever... no wizard is just going to stand around within a monk's movement range if they have a choice (which they do.) And even if monks are competant (barely) at grappling with wizards (which, as noted, is not a very reliable strategy unless you can always count on taking wizards by surprise from within movement range of them)... the grappler-monk isn't very good for much else, since most opponents are actually pretty big. Wizard enemies are just not that common for players while adventurering... building a monk specialized to beat a wizard is, not to put to fine a point on it, a "Schrödinger's monk."

Of course, people rarely point out how absurd the monk builds people make for contests like this are, since it's sort of kicking a class when it's down... but you can't criticize wizards for taking Teleport as an SLA when your entire build exists just to grapple enemy wizard PCs in message board contests.

Kaelik
2007-12-26, 11:30 PM
Apology for what may very well be a newbish question, but on the general topic of monk vs. wizard... what about grappling?

A monk specialized in grappling can be lethal, correct? And, not being exactly feat-starved, they can afford miscellaneous anti-magic feats. My knowledge of all spells is limited, so there may be an anti-grapple spell I'm not aware of, but otherwise most whole casters seem screwed within arms reach of a grappling monk.

(If there is an anti-grapple spell in existence, I conclude that there is nothing that can beat magic other than more magic and declare everything that isn't a wizard knockoff to be inefficient and should be turned into a coloured foodstuff immediately)

1) Barbarians and Fighters actually make much better grapplers. One level in Monk for the feat is occasionally useful.
2) Monks aren't feat starved, but they don't really have an access either.
3) Wizards spend most of their time flying, and avoid ever being grappled, and killing people before they can reach them.
4) Clerics have the same BAB as monks, and are often buffed to have higher Str and BAB, don't try to grapple one.
5) Unless you pin the Wizard (you can't in the round you initate the grapple unless you have pounce or started the round adjacent to them (not happening)) he can just Dimension Door straight out, since you have to pin to stop verbal components, and Dimension Door has nothing else.
6) There are plenty of buff spells that do insane damage to anyone who chooses to grapple the Wizard, though very few ever bother to memorize any, since you there are so many other options.
7) Freedom of Movement. Note how it makes all Grapple checks automatically fail against you. Note how it is available in Ring form for all your grapple negating fun.
8) Archmage SLAs for the win.

Sir Giacomo
2007-12-27, 06:07 AM
oops, double post.

Sir Giacomo
2007-12-27, 06:08 AM
And to, once again, provide a different opinion...


1) Barbarians and Fighters actually make much better grapplers. One level in Monk for the feat is occasionally useful.

No, they do not make better grapplers. The monk has up to two more grappling attempts per round (flurry of blows). That, plus the much higher grappling damage puts the monk ahead (and with UMF divine power the monk could also equate the BAB disadvantage, but it is not really necessary).


2) Monks aren't feat starved, but they don't really have an access either.

Yep. They are behind the fighter feat wise, in the area of the wizard, rogue and ranger. But I would not call that "not really an access".


3) Wizards spend most of their time flying, and avoid ever being grappled, and killing people before they can reach them.

The monk is fairly similar in that respect to the wizard (i.e. avoid dangerous attacks). The monk can also fly via magic items (and is then faster than the wizard with it). With an enlarge effect and/or a reach weapon, the monk can also kill people before they can reach them. And as for avoiding getting grappled...see below.


4) Clerics have the same BAB as monks, and are often buffed to have higher Str and BAB, don't try to grapple one.

Oh, that is fairly easy. Check with spellcraft whether a cleric is casting those buffs (or wait until the short buff times are over). The monk movement grants the monk the ability mostly to determine when an encounter takes place (mostly on his terms). And then grapple.


5) Unless you pin the Wizard (you can't in the round you initate the grapple unless you have pounce or started the round adjacent to them (not happening)) he can just Dimension Door straight out, since you have to pin to stop verbal components, and Dimension Door has nothing else.

A good thing is to get a surprise vs the wizard (1 standard action, partial charge and grapple). And then win initiative. Difficult to pull at high levels, though.
But on attack normally is enough: stun, then use the next round for pin.


6) There are plenty of buff spells that do insane damage to anyone who chooses to grapple the Wizard, though very few ever bother to memorize any, since you there are so many other options.

Which is the reason why they hardly ever come up. And even then, the monk has formidable saves and spell resistance at higher levels.


7) Freedom of Movement. Note how it makes all Grapple checks automatically fail against you. Note how it is available in Ring form for all your grapple negating fun.

Which is the point where UMD and AMF comes in so handy. Key for keeping grappling interesting at high levels.
Of course, a greater dispel magic from one of your party members can also do the trick nicely.


8) Archmage SLAs for the win.

Again, UMD and AMF.

- Giacomo

Kurald Galain
2007-12-27, 06:24 AM
Wow. It took almost two full days before this parody thread was hijacked into another re-hash of the "monks suck" debate. Must be christmas.

Perhaps we should copy/paste in the rest of the responses from last week's thread on the same topic, or the thread from the week before that, et cetera. We know the pattern.

Guys, wisen up, the Samurai is much better than the monk. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3660260&postcount=1) Or even the wizard.

Mr.Moron
2007-12-27, 06:35 AM
Wow. It took almost two full days before this parody thread was hijacked into another re-hash of the "monks suck" debate. Must be christmas.

Perhaps we should copy/paste in the rest of the responses from last week's thread on the same topic, or the thread from the week before that, et cetera. We know the pattern.

Guys, wisen up, the Samurai is much better than the monk. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3660260&postcount=1) Or even the wizard.


Oh yeah?! Does the Samurai have fists turned into talking intelligent weapons? Talking intelligent weapons that act like exaggerated versions of the "Shoulder Devil" and "Shoulder Angel" from any number of cartoons? With Swedish accents!?




Yeah, didn't think so. Monk rules.

mostlyharmful
2007-12-27, 07:25 AM
Oh yeah?! Does the Samurai have fists turned into talking intelligent weapons? Talking intelligent weapons that act like exaggerated versions of the "Shoulder Devil" and "Shoulder Angel" from any number of cartoons? With Swedish accents!?




Yeah, didn't think so. Monk rules.

Ok. your monks do sound fun. But do they get to shake their Boomstick in mixed company?

Kaelik
2007-12-27, 07:28 AM
No, they do not make better grapplers. The monk has up to two more grappling attempts per round (flurry of blows). That, plus the much higher grappling damage puts the monk ahead (and with UMF divine power the monk could also equate the BAB disadvantage, but it is not really necessary).

Flurry is one reason for grabbing a level of Monk, since with a single level dip they equate to Monks in number of attacks until level 11, and then they stay the same because of better BAB. Since Freedom of Movement comes into play at higher levels, I'd like for my grapple based character to be good from level 1, IE I'm not going to wait around for Divine Power. Also note that Barbarians with the right variant get Improved Grab, and that they can get into Bear Warrior to be even better grapplers.

In addition, there are several ways to get comparative Unarmed strike damage of a Monk without being a Monk. For example, a Barbarian with a 1 lvl dip in Monk, wearing a Monks Belt, with Superior unarmed strike (depending on interpretations of stacking) has the unarmed damage of a level 10 monk, and still gets extra Str damage.

Not to mention, Monks get very little supplement love, so Barbarians have all sorts of options for upping damage that Monks do not.


Yep. They are behind the fighter feat wise, in the area of the wizard, rogue and ranger. But I would not call that "not really an access".

Well, since their bonus feats (other then improved grapple) don't actually help grappling, I wouldn't exactly say that they have the feats to spare for anti-mage feats, unless they want to suck at grappling non-mages. And being good only at grappling mages is a bad idea for all the other failures of grappling mages.


The monk is fairly similar in that respect to the wizard (i.e. avoid dangerous attacks). The monk can also fly via magic items (and is then faster than the wizard with it). With an enlarge effect and/or a reach weapon, the monk can also kill people before they can reach them. And as for avoiding getting grappled...see below.

Well see, I'd like a character who doesn't suck against multiple types of enemies. So if I were building a Grappler, I would want to be good at grappling non-mages, which doesn't avoid melee combat against 90% of monsters and all non-caster characters.

And no the Monk can't "kill people before they can reach him" unless you mean level 1 Commoners. A Fighter takes the one attack and laughs it off (and then does 80 bajillion charge damage) a rogue or finesse fighter tumbles and avoids AoO. A spellcaster, well, casts spells. Ones that don't offer a save (because the Monks spell resistance is a joke.)

For example a Wizard just throws down Evard's Black Tentacles. SR: No, Save: No. How you know your Wizard Grappler has failed, the Wizards casts a spell that out grapples him.

Also, good thing the Wizard doesn't have access to movement speed enhancers, like items (because he's not buying items to fly) or, maybe spells. Cause if those existed he would be flying as fast, or faster then the Monk.

Also, good thing he can't negate the Monk's flying abilities with a Shaped AMF or by dispelling the flying item. (Or dispelling the flying item then shattering if he is mean to the poor Monk.)


Oh, that is fairly easy. Check with spellcraft whether a cleric is casting those buffs (or wait until the short buff times are over). The monk movement grants the monk the ability mostly to determine when an encounter takes place (mostly on his terms). And then grapple.

Is this Monk part of a party? If no, then he just opened himself to a Rogue SA and a Fighter full power attack. While not doing much damage. If yes, then running away and abandoning them is going to get old really quick.


A good thing is to get a surprise vs the wizard (1 standard action, partial charge and grapple). And then win initiative. Difficult to pull at high levels, though.

Difficult to ever pull. When are you going to surprise the Wizard that you can charge him without his party members being in the way? When are you going to surprise him and reach him when he is floating 60ft up in the air? Also, I guess you've never heard of the fact that Wizards have really good Initiative, better then, well everyone else.


But on attack normally is enough: stun, then use the next round for pin.

I'd like to introduce you to this Wizard who is immune to Stun. His name is All of Them.


Which is the reason why they hardly ever come up. And even then, the monk has formidable saves and spell resistance at higher levels.

Many of These spells don't actually care, and the only reason a Wizard will ever let you grapple him is if he has one. Also, please never ever mention the Monk's Spell Resistance as if it has some sort of effect on PC Wizards.


Which is the point where UMD and AMF comes in so handy. Key for keeping grappling interesting at high levels.

So how exactly are you going to fly up to get the Wizard while under the effect of an AMF? Or was you plan to fly up to reach him, then UMD while within 20ft of him. Then when you both fall to the ground, watch him tumble/move out of your field, then Fly 50ft up and laugh at you.


Of course, a greater dispel magic from one of your party members can also do the trick nicely.

Congratulations, you can grapple the Wizard (if you can reach him) for 1d4 rounds. How does that make you feel? How will you feel in 1d4 rounds when you are useless once again? How will you feel when in one round (because this wasn't a surprise round) the Wizard Dimension Doors 400ft to his right?


Again, UMD and AMF.

See above comments on AMF Grappling Flying Wizards.

Let me make a quick list of all the things that need to fall together for your Monk to grapple.

1) No Freedom of Movement
2) Surprised (which means they can't have access to Foresight)
3) You must win Init. (Wizards have good Init.)
4) You must be within 40-60ft of them when you surprise them.
5) You must be able to fly.

Or

5) You must be flying.
6) You must already have AMF up.

Barring ridiculously good fortune on your part. You can now play one of 2 races, Dragonborn and Raptoran. Have fun. Oh, and you still have to be close enough to reach him in one round.

Emperor Demonking
2007-12-27, 07:50 AM
He could be a halfcelestial/dragon/fiend.

new1965
2007-12-27, 08:36 AM
Its kind of interesting that almost everyone assumed that the Wizard would be totally prepared for this situation but almost no one thought the monk would be prepared too.. Theres a reason why the OP said the monk would have full wealth by level

In the original scenario... the monk could be standing on the other side of the arena wearing a Beholder crown, Armbands of Elusive Action,a ring of Avoidance , ring of vanishing, ki straps, have any sort of buffs placed on him permanently , etc...

Kurald Galain
2007-12-27, 08:42 AM
Its kind of interesting that almost everyone assumed that the Wizard would be totally prepared for this situation

It's kind of interesting that almost everyone assumed that the Wizard would be naked, bound, gagged, and has both eyes gouged out, but almost no one thought the monk would be naked etcetera too... since monks allegedly specialize in fighting unarmed, it would make perfect sense to have them fight uneyed etcetera, as that hardly makes them less effective.

In the original scenario... the monk could be cut in pieces, tied up with a chain, and locked in a coffin that is sovereignly glued shut, under water, etc...

Spiryt
2007-12-27, 08:47 AM
In the original scenario... the monk could be standing on the other side of the arena wearing a Beholder crown, Armbands of Elusive Action,a ring of Avoidance , ring of vanishing, ki straps, have any sort of buffs placed on him permanently , etc...

All bought from his undeserved retirement pension, considering that he already hit 17th level.

Telonius
2007-12-27, 09:31 AM
The monk is allowed full wealth by level.

The wizard is naked, bound, gagged, has both eyes gouged out, and is not allowed a spellbook.

Discuss.

Wizard. He used Craft Contingent Spell to prepare for just such a situation.

Kaelik
2007-12-27, 10:03 AM
Its kind of interesting that almost everyone assumed that the Wizard would be totally prepared for this situation

Actually, I only assumed that the Wizard hard 2 levels or Archmage somewhere.

level 1: Arcane Reach
level 2: lose 5th and 7th slot for 2 Greater Teleports every day as SLAs.
level 3+: Arcane Power or lose 5th level and 9th level for 2 9th level SLAs.

Ne0
2007-12-27, 10:17 AM
...So people are taking this serious? :smallconfused:

Anyhow, a few remarks:
- How does the wizard fly? He can't see! Unless they're in a completely empty dimension, he's bound to fly into something?
- The wizard isn't necessarily aware of the monk, is he?
- I'd also say the wizard has to have a pretty good concentration modifier, with being naked, tied up and blind - not to mention the horrible pain of having your eyes gouged out.
- Why do people seem to think that the monk has a lower Dex than the wizard? With low to moderate stats - aka always - Dex is more important than strength.
- If the wizard is prepared for this situation, so is the monk, I assume?

And I'm pretty sure that starting this kind of thread somehow breaks the rules...We'll have the sherrif breathing in our neck anytime now... :smallbiggrin:

Emperor Demonking
2007-12-27, 10:22 AM
The wizard teleports and gets a cleric to heal his eyes.

Show me where it says that having your eyes gouged out is painful.

Indon
2007-12-27, 10:30 AM
Craft Continent Spell: "If I am ever incapacitated in a forum message board matchup against a Monk, Silent/Still Teleport me to my sanctum."

Taking whatever feats/skills/whatever required to make that actually work.

I mean, what fool wouldn't build a Wizard with that? It's perfectly sensible.

Kaelik
2007-12-27, 10:31 AM
Anyhow, a few remarks:
- How does the wizard fly? He can't see! Unless they're in a completely empty dimension, he's bound to fly into something?
- The wizard isn't necessarily aware of the monk, is he?
- I'd also say the wizard has to have a pretty good concentration modifier, with being naked, tied up and blind - not to mention the horrible pain of having your eyes gouged out.
- Why do people seem to think that the monk has a lower Dex than the wizard? With low to moderate stats - aka always - Dex is more important than strength.
- If the wizard is prepared for this situation, so is the monk, I assume?

1) He doesn't, he escapes. Ignore everyone who says he takes out the Monk right there. Though of course, he could have hour per level Blindsight up from the spell he cast extended yesterday.
2) He is aware that he is tied up. So he probably wants to teleport back to his house of awesome.
3) All Wizards have a good Concentration modifier. Naked, tied up, and blind do nothing to force any kind of concentration check. Do you force concentration checks from characters with 1HP? I don't think it applies in a theoretical discussion, we should be following the rules.
4) The Monk doesn't necessarily have a lower Dex. He does probably have a lower init. First, Dex is a Wizards second stat after Int, it is also the Monks after Wisdom. The Monk has other stats he cares about more then the Wizard cares about those same stats though. Advantage Wizard. In Core, Improved Init is almost guaranteed for a Wizard, since they lack enough quality other feats. Non-Core, it's still a good choice, only now the have access to Insightful Divination, Nerveskitter, the Hummingbird Familiar, and probably some other bonuses I haven't mentioned.
5) He has one turn to stop the Wizard from leaving, if he wins Init. Have fun. Also, the Wizard wasn't prepared, he was just a generic Batman with something like, Wizard 5/Mindbender 1/PrC 5/PrC 4/Archmage 5

Morty
2007-12-27, 10:33 AM
I mean, what fool wouldn't build a Wizard with that? It's perfectly sensible.

Given the number of such match-ups, it indeed is.

Kaelik
2007-12-27, 10:34 AM
Craft Continent Spell: "If I am ever incapacitated in a forum message board matchup against a Monk, Silent/Still Teleport me to my sanctum."

Taking whatever feats/skills/whatever required to make that actually work.

I mean, what fool wouldn't build a Wizard with that? It's perfectly sensible.

1) You don't need to be able to cast the spell at the time the Contingency goes off, that's the whole point of Contingency. So no need to Silent Still.

2) I wouldn't ever take Craft Contingent spell if I didn't want to make all the other players (and the DM) feel bad about how badly I could crush 90% of the world around me.

Indon
2007-12-27, 10:35 AM
Given the number of such match-ups, it indeed is.

"I roll Knowledge(Gaming) to determine the probability that fickle real-life humans will pit me in ridiculous deathmatch scenarios against people I have no real qualm against!"

Ne0
2007-12-27, 10:37 AM
1) He doesn't, he escapes. Ignore everyone who says he takes out the Monk right there. Though of course, he could have hour per level Blindsight up from the spell he cast extended yesterday.

But it's Monk vs. Wizard. If the Wizard feels like fleeing - well, wins goes to the monk, no? :smallbiggrin:

Emperor Demonking
2007-12-27, 10:39 AM
Its not fleeing its tactical moving.

Could summon moster or gate help healing.

Kaelik
2007-12-27, 10:47 AM
But it's Monk vs. Wizard. If the Wizard feels like fleeing - well, wins goes to the monk, no? :smallbiggrin:

Given the circumstances I'd say that teleporting out, healing the blindness, picking up a secondary spellbook, working your way back to WBL then casting multiple divination and scrying spells aimed at "The Bastard who did [that] to me." Then finding him and killing him for revenge qualifies as winning. Oh, and he can kill the Monk on the side if he bothers to waste his time.

OP: Look out. I'm seeing an angry Planeshifting Wizard in your future.

Ne0
2007-12-27, 10:51 AM
But depending on the situation, the wizard might not be able to teleport back to the location. He was blind, and obviously has no description of the place.

And tactical movement? Come on, we all know what that means. :smallbiggrin:

Kaelik
2007-12-27, 11:15 AM
But depending on the situation, the wizard might not be able to teleport back to the location. He was blind, and obviously has no description of the place.

Who said he needed to teleport back? He can find the Monk later. He can Contact Other Plane to find out anything he needs to find out. He can ask for the Over Deity to describe the entire situation he was in, then identify the Monk. Not much work.

Telonius
2007-12-27, 11:16 AM
Given the circumstances I'd say that teleporting out, healing the blindness, picking up a secondary spellbook, working your way back to WBL then casting multiple divination and scrying spells aimed at "The Bastard who did [that] to me." Then finding him and killing him for revenge qualifies as winning. Oh, and he can kill the Monk on the side if he bothers to waste his time.

OP: Look out. I'm seeing an angry Planeshifting Wizard in your future.

So in this situation, the Monk appears to be the One Inept Guard left to look after the Wizard...?

Ne0
2007-12-27, 11:20 AM
He can ask for the Over Deity to describe the entire situation he was in, then identify the Monk. Not much work.

That's gonna take quite a bit of time with only one-word replies...And seriously, if you're fighting a wizard, or at least if you know that he's coming for you for revenge, there are more than enough ways to make sure he won't find you.

Kaelik
2007-12-27, 11:35 AM
And seriously, if you're fighting a wizard, or at least if you know that he's coming for you for revenge, there are more than enough ways to make sure he won't find you.

So in other words, the Monk is doing everything he can to hide from the Wizard and hope he never runs into him. And that is why the Monk is the winner?

Mr.Moron
2007-12-27, 11:50 AM
Ok. your monks do sound fun. But do they get to shake their Boomstick in mixed company?

Depends which fist you ask.

Ne0
2007-12-27, 01:44 PM
So in other words, the Monk is doing everything he can to hide from the Wizard and hope he never runs into him. And that is why the Monk is the winner?

No, but it's at least a draw. And you're pulling my quote out of context. Please, I hate it when people do that. Just one line, what's the difference? :smallconfused:

Kaelik
2007-12-27, 02:18 PM
No, but it's at least a draw. And you're pulling my quote out of context. Please, I hate it when people do that. Just one line, what's the difference? :smallconfused:

I wouldn't call that a draw, I would call that a Wizard overcoming a challenge, and a Monk doing absolutely nothing. (In fact, things turn out exactly the same if the Monk never exists in the first place.)

And no I didn't take you sentence out of context, I addressed the relevant part of it, which was the part about what the Monk does.

Sir Giacomo
2007-12-27, 02:57 PM
So in other words, the Monk is doing everything he can to hide from the Wizard and hope he never runs into him. And that is why the Monk is the winner?

No, Kaelik. It is not that simple. The outcome is fairly uncertain. And I do not talk about the ironic scenario of the OP (in which the wizard has of course little chance of survival. And if you put it the other way round, the monk does not even need to take prestige classes or feats or items to get out of the problem - he can dim door as a supernatural ability or move into the ground etherally).

On to your earlier post with my differing opinion...


Flurry is one reason for grabbing a level of Monk, since with a single level dip they equate to Monks in number of attacks until level 11, and then they stay the same because of better BAB. Since Freedom of Movement comes into play at higher levels, I'd like for my grapple based character to be good from level 1, IE I'm not going to wait around for Divine Power. Also note that Barbarians with the right variant get Improved Grab, and that they can get into Bear Warrior to be even better grapplers.

In addition, there are several ways to get comparative Unarmed strike damage of a Monk without being a Monk. For example, a Barbarian with a 1 lvl dip in Monk, wearing a Monks Belt, with Superior unarmed strike (depending on interpretations of stacking) has the unarmed damage of a level 10 monk, and still gets extra Str damage.


When you dip one level in monk, you still have one flurry attack less, and higher penalty (reducing the BAB advantage). Damagewise you still lag the monk, since the monk can also take all the damage enhancers (including the belt) that a fighter or barbarian can.
Bear warrior I do not know about - but once you move beyond core, there are likely also plenty of opportunities available for a monk. And improved grab is not really that much of an advantage as opposed to a regular grapple attack.



Not to mention, Monks get very little supplement love, so Barbarians have all sorts of options for upping damage that Monks do not.

Well, all I do not really think that apart from rage there is any barbarian-specific stuff out there.



Well, since their bonus feats (other then improved grapple) don't actually help grappling, I wouldn't exactly say that they have the feats to spare for anti-mage feats, unless they want to suck at grappling non-mages. And being good only at grappling mages is a bad idea for all the other failures of grappling mages.


Hmmm...feats that help doing the grappling thing are:
- combat reflexes (monk bonus feat, allows more grapples as AoO, and also flat-footed)
- stunning fist (monk bonus feat, allows grapple/pin without resistance)
- improved trip (monk bonus feat, allows grapple at higher bonus, or in combination with reach from afar).

For non-mages, monks have to come up with a different strategy than grappling, that is correct. For mages it is more than enough - if they get through the magical defenses.



Well see, I'd like a character who doesn't suck against multiple types of enemies. So if I were building a Grappler, I would want to be good at grappling non-mages, which doesn't avoid melee combat against 90% of monsters and all non-caster characters.


Entirely possible. But you do realise that melee combat is the least advantageous form of combat since you risk your neck more, don't you?



And no the Monk can't "kill people before they can reach him" unless you mean level 1 Commoners. A Fighter takes the one attack and laughs it off (and then does 80 bajillion charge damage) a rogue or finesse fighter tumbles and avoids AoO. A spellcaster, well, casts spells. Ones that don't offer a save (because the Monks spell resistance is a joke.)


Yep, tumbling can counter the AoO tactics. Hmm. Will think on that. But a lot more than 1st level commoners will have difficulties with that DC 15 tumbling check. Charges can be stopped by caltrops at low levels and concealment tactics at higher levels.



For example a Wizard just throws down Evard's Black Tentacles. SR: No, Save: No. How you know your Wizard Grappler has failed, the Wizards casts a spell that out grapples him.

Two problems for a wizard relying on the tentacles thing:
1) the monk may also have freedom of movement or similar evasive magic on (for instance, blink)
2) the monk grapple is not that bad. If enlarged and with improved grapple, it offers quite a good chance to win the opposed grapple (in particular on his turn with a flurry)



Also, good thing the Wizard doesn't have access to movement speed enhancers, like items (because he's not buying items to fly) or, maybe spells. Cause if those existed he would be flying as fast, or faster then the Monk.

The only way a wizard can fly faster than a monk with access to a fly effect is with an indirect manner/creature like phantom steed which have their own vulnerabilities.



Also, good thing he can't negate the Monk's flying abilities with a Shaped AMF or by dispelling the flying item. (Or dispelling the flying item then shattering if he is mean to the poor Monk.)


By the time a shaped AMF is available to the wizard via archmage, the monk also has access to AMF.
And if we want to play "who destroys each other's items faster", the monk can flurry/sunder a wizard's prized posessions, too. Or he might simply get improved disarm as a bonus feat and simply flurry the stuff a wizard wears like his spellbook/backpack away from him.



Is this Monk part of a party? If no, then he just opened himself to a Rogue SA and a Fighter full power attack. While not doing much damage. If yes, then running away and abandoning them is going to get old really quick.

How does "superior movement" open yourself for more devastating attacks? Do you mean a rogue able to sneak when a monk runs 4x his speed? For that, the monk needs to actually be within 30ft of the monk which due to the high speed is quite unlikely in the first place. And a run feat could easily negate that threat from the rogue. As for the fighter...it would need a very special situation with a readied attack to do something to the monk.
It's quite funny that whenever one mentions the monk using his superior movement to evade a combat disadvantageous to him and then return to attack at a later point it is called "fleeing". And when a wizard does the same with spells it is of course not fleeing but always returning for the win.



Difficult to ever pull. When are you going to surprise the Wizard that you can charge him without his party members being in the way? When are you going to surprise him and reach him when he is floating 60ft up in the air? Also, I guess you've never heard of the fact that Wizards have really good Initiative, better then, well everyone else.

Pls read my above post again. I admitted that at high levels it is difficult to win the initiative vs a wizard, much less surprise him. Still, tactics are available to, say, trigger a foresight (which would eat up a lot of the 9th level slots of a wizard to keep up 24/7, anyhow). And moment of prescience does not work on initiative rolls since it is not an opposed ability check (just a regular one).
Outside of core, I think the only way ahead for wizards in initiative is a special familiar (but I am not sure about how official humming bird familiars are). All other spells are also available to the monk via UMD (like nerveskitter).


I'd like to introduce you to this Wizard who is immune to Stun. His name is All of Them.

A pleasure to meet you, Mr. All of Them. Let me return the favour and introduce you to the non-caster's best friends vs casters at high levels: UMD and AMF. And in case you refer to a buckler of fortification, meet my somewhat bulkier and less complicated friend, Mr. Improved Sunder.



Many of These spells don't actually care, and the only reason a Wizard will ever let you grapple him is if he has one. Also, please never ever mention the Monk's Spell Resistance as if it has some sort of effect on PC Wizards.

Oh, of course a monk will likewise never let you affect him with a spell...Wishful thinking is allowed on both sides!:smallwink:
And why should I not mention even a risk of 10% failing spell of a wizard vs the monk's resistance? Mind you, in core, wizards can only boost their spellpower by 2 levels, I think. Which puts the failure chance to 35% still vs equal level casters. Outside core, I guess for every means to bring up the wizard's caster level, the monk has a possibility to boost the spell resistance.
A mantle of (much weaker) spell resistance is not a quite expensive item without any reason, you know. And of course it is also highly useful to be virtually immune to all spells of lower level opponents.
And note: for a wizard to actually get a spell through to a monk of high level so that SR and saves matter at all, he already has to overcome the monk's other defenses (for instance those that provide concealment - targeted spells won't work then, and many area spells are negated by improved evasion).


So how exactly are you going to fly up to get the Wizard while under the effect of an AMF? Or was you plan to fly up to reach him, then UMD while within 20ft of him. Then when you both fall to the ground, watch him tumble/move out of your field, then Fly 50ft up and laugh at you.

I just love repeating this over and over again: the monk (or any high-level non-caster in combat vs a caster) will not activate the AMF unless it is not useful to him.
One method: Fly up way above caster (you are faster than the caster, after all), then activate AMF, fall on caster, both fall down.
Both then are prone. Unfortunately, the caster has to stand up from prone to get away out of the AMF, and the AoO triggered by that is not negated by a tumble.
A kicker: if this happens close to a wall, the monk even takes less damage than the wizard (if both are high enough, it is already questionable if the wizard survives the 20d6 max falling damage. Hey, flying can be dangerous...:smallcool: ). Alternatively, the monk's higher tumbling skill puts him at a minor advantage in avoiding falling damage.


Congratulations, you can grapple the Wizard (if you can reach him) for 1d4 rounds. How does that make you feel? How will you feel in 1d4 rounds when you are useless once again? How will you feel when in one round (because this wasn't a surprise round) the Wizard Dimension Doors 400ft to his right?

1d4 rounds of flurried grapple damage is quite bad. IF (and that is a big IF) the wizard has not yet used up his SLA dimension door (or prepared stilled dimension door) for that day, then he would be able to escape. However, note that
1) the wizard will have to pass a DC 20 + spell level concentration check and
2) he still provokes AoO for using a spell or spell-like ability.


See above comments on AMF Grappling Flying Wizards.

Ditto.

Let me make a quick list of all the things that need to fall together for your Monk to grapple.


1) No Freedom of Movement

Countered by AMF.


2) Surprised (which means they can't have access to Foresight)

Foresight at the levels we talk about can be fooled/triggered/is not always present. Otherwise, of course, it is a powerful tool in the hands of the wizard- but not a win button.


3) You must win Init. (Wizards have good Init.)

Monks as well. So it likely boils down to a 50% chance. If the monk can surprise the wizard, the initiative is not necessary.


4) You must be within 40-60ft of them when you surprise them.

The easiest part. Although up to a certain point, dropping from above could stretch the distance considerably since falling is much faster than even the monk's movement.


5) You must be able to fly.

Or

[QUOTE=Kaelik;3712492]5) You must be flying.

Ah no, that is likely the easiest part.


6) You must already have AMF up.

Nope. See above.


Barring ridiculously good fortune on your part. You can now play one of 2 races, Dragonborn and Raptoran. Have fun. Oh, and you still have to be close enough to reach him in one round.

Well, meanwhile your wizard is dependent on several key spells to even provide some safety for him at those levels.
But as shown, the monk does not need to be of any of the naturally flying races.

It is fascinating without end how threads like these pop up trying to be ironic based on completely wrong notions of balance, possibilities and rules in this game. And the same posters keep repeating the same "monk sucks" fallacies all over again.
But it's entertaining nonetheless.:smallbiggrin:


- Giacomo

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-27, 03:04 PM
Giacomo, you're forgetting something. A part PAYS a wizzo to be Crazy Prepared, but a monk is paid to Fly Like a Butterfly, Annoy like a Fly. Since that Job sucks, by logic, the monk sucks. Sure, it's flawed logic, but it's as good an explanation as yours, m'friend.

Sir Giacomo
2007-12-27, 03:10 PM
Giacomo, you're forgetting something. A part PAYS a wizzo to be Crazy Prepared, but a monk is paid to Fly Like a Butterfly, Annoy like a Fly. Since that Job sucks, by logic, the monk sucks. Sure, it's flawed logic, but it's as good an explanation as yours, m'friend.

Hmmm...you mean that since some players would not like playing a monk since it does not suit their playing/combat style, it must be considered weaker from a balance point of view? Yes, as you said, it's flawed logic.

There may be similarly many posters/players who prefer the sorcerer to the wizard because it is so much of a nuisance to always try to prepare for everything. But noone would argue that this makes the sorcerer more powerful. Only that for some, this makes him more playable.

Basically you are arguing flavourwise, I argue from the point of view of what is in the rules and what power/tactics you can do with them.

- Giacomo

Kurald Galain
2007-12-27, 03:17 PM
Yeah, yeah, we get it, the monk wins because he can get an NPC wizard to follow him around and cast spells to make it foggy. Been there, done that, wrote the spellbook.

Either that or wait until the DM does the "you're imprisoned and stripped of your equipment shtick" in a party that doesn't have a sorcerer, warlock or rogue in it.

Yup, awesome indeed.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-27, 03:18 PM
Wow, hats off to Giacomo. He dodged antilogics, he must have an infinite reflex save or be obtuse as hell.

Indon
2007-12-27, 03:26 PM
You know, I get the strange urge to play a 1900's explorer-type Wizard, optimize him, and then have the excuse to constantly say, in a British accent, "Luckily, I already had a series of spells memorized for just such an occasion as this!"

Sir Giacomo
2007-12-27, 03:30 PM
Yeah, yeah, we get it, the monk wins because he can get an NPC wizard to follow him around and cast spells to make it foggy. Been there, done that, wrote the spellbook.

Either that or wait until the DM does the "you're imprisoned and stripped of your equipment shtick" in a party that doesn't have a sorcerer, warlock or rogue in it.

Yup, awesome indeed.

Er...sorry...you are in the wrong thread. My arguments above that imo once again negated yours bit by bit were based on a UMD monk, not a leadership monk. But you could of course combine the two, if you like. But UMD is just fine. Some wands with the respective spells (reasonably priced) and AMF scrolls and you are set. The monk can afford it - since he has already so many class abilities that are emulated by magical items which others still need to get.

And frankly, I do not understand the imprisoned scenario part. Does this never happen in your adventures? And I never said that the monk in such a situation would be the only hope for a party, but simply that he is at an advantage there.

- Giacomo

Sir Giacomo
2007-12-27, 03:32 PM
You know, I get the strange urge to play a 1900's explorer-type Wizard, optimize him, and then have the excuse to constantly say, in a British accent, "Luckily, I already had a series of spells memorized for just such an occasion as this!"

Excellent idea! And for his Passepartout butler, we'll give him a monk. Voila- devastating two-man party.:smallcool:

- Giacomo

Spiryt
2007-12-27, 03:39 PM
Excellent idea! And for his Passepartout butler, we'll give him a monk. Voila- devastating two-man party.:smallcool:

- Giacomo

What exactly monk would devastate?

Indon
2007-12-27, 03:43 PM
What exactly monk would devastate?

"Go kill that for me, Jeeves." *Polymorph!*

A Wizard-cheesed Monk is probably capable of soloing CR's of his level with ease.

Thus, everyone gets what they want. The monk gets to go adventure and do exciting things, and the Wizard gets to lord over his power and prestige, occasionally teleporting back and forth between his associate and the Adventurers' Guild clubhouse where he regales other wizards with his tales.

Spiryt
2007-12-27, 03:46 PM
"Go kill that for me, Jeeves." *Polymorph!*

A Wizard-cheesed Monk is probably capable of soloing CR's of his level with ease.

Thus, everyone gets what they want. The monk gets to go adventure and do exciting things, and the Wizard gets to lord over his power and prestige, occasionally teleporting back and forth between his associate and the Adventurers' Guild clubhouse where he regales other wizards with his tales.

Then why wizard won't buy dunno, a doberman, and polymorph it. Much cheeper than monk :smallbiggrin:

You must always try to be economical in D&D.

Sir Giacomo
2007-12-27, 03:46 PM
What exactly monk would devastate?

The wager. He would be able to move around the world in less than 80 days and carry Mr. Wizeard Fogg on his back doing it .:smallcool:

- Giacomo

Indon
2007-12-27, 03:49 PM
Then why wizard won't buy dunno, a doberman, and polymorph it. Much cheeper than monk :smallbiggrin:

You must always try to be economical in D&D.

Incorrect.

PC's work for other PC's for free, usually.

Kurald Galain
2007-12-27, 03:54 PM
Er...sorry...you are in the wrong thread.

Heh. You are, I hope, aware that this was not a serious thread to begin with? I'm not sure why you're intent on making it Yet Another rehash of those opinions of yours that are contradicted by actual facts...


The monk is allowed full wealth by level.

The wizard is naked, bound, gagged, has both eyes gouged out, and is not allowed a spellbook.

Spiryt
2007-12-27, 03:55 PM
Incorrect.

PC's work for other PC's for free, usually.

Well, I was under impression that we are talking about Around the World in Eighty Days situation.

And if I remember well, Fogg was paying Passepartout:smallwink:

Ne0
2007-12-27, 04:13 PM
I wouldn't call that a draw, I would call that a Wizard overcoming a challenge, and a Monk doing absolutely nothing. (In fact, things turn out exactly the same if the Monk never exists in the first place.)

And no I didn't take you sentence out of context, I addressed the relevant part of it, which was the part about what the Monk does.

Once again, I repeat: Monk vs. Wizard. They both live, therefore a draw.

But as I asked, what does one line of difference make? You're juggling with words now.

Sir Giacomo
2007-12-27, 04:14 PM
Well, I was under impression that we are talking about Around the World in Eighty Days situation.

And if I remember well, Fogg was paying Passepartout:smallwink:

You mean...the moment a pc pays another pc that pc loses his pc status (and wealth alongside it)? Yes! Best strategy ever vs wizard pcs...:smallbiggrin:

- Giacomo

Sir Giacomo
2007-12-27, 04:17 PM
Heh. You are, I hope, aware that this was not a serious thread to begin with? I'm not sure why you're intent on making it Yet Another rehash of those opinions of yours that are contradicted by actual facts...

Of course I am aware of that.

And I am still waiting for those facts...while one after one, I keep shooting down all the monk sucks/wizard wins arguments.

And all I get is the same old fallacies repeated all over again.

Case in point: a high-level wizard should, for instance, use illusions to fool his opponents. THAT I would call a good strategy - but once again no win button.

- Giacomo

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-27, 04:23 PM
Correction: A High level wizard will Gate in Titans. A LOW level wizard does that. Or he drowns you, or he puts a defenestrating sphere/any other sphere inside a forcecage with you, or he greases you and has a rogue sneak attack the hell outta you, or he solid fogs you and proceeds to make you his sex slave, etc.

Spiryt
2007-12-27, 04:26 PM
You mean...the moment a pc pays another pc that pc loses his pc status (and wealth alongside it)? Yes! Best strategy ever vs wizard pcs...:smallbiggrin:

- Giacomo

However bards still would be probably best at it. It seems that paying must be conscious act of both sides. So - diplomacy. :smallbiggrin:

Kurald Galain
2007-12-27, 04:53 PM
And I am still waiting for those facts...while one after one, I keep shooting down all the monk sucks/wizard wins arguments.
Like I said, yeah, yeah, we know, the monk wins because he pays a wizard to win for him, or because he cripples the party until they're at the same low level as that monk, or because he takes a level in Pun-pun. We've seen your "arguments".

Sir Giacomo
2007-12-27, 05:14 PM
Correction: A High level wizard will Gate in Titans. A LOW level wizard does that. Or he drowns you, or he puts a defenestrating sphere/any other sphere inside a forcecage with you, or he greases you and has a rogue sneak attack the hell outta you, or he solid fogs you and proceeds to make you his sex slave, etc.

- Is that the best you can do?
Titan- 40ft movement. How will he force the lvl 17-20 monk to fight him instead of the wizard again? Or better yet, monk moves out of range, waits until gate is over, returns to wizard. Who then may be faced with an angry titan after the spell ends.
- What spell drowns a monk again?
- the monk can escape the forcecage quite easily with a dimdoor (supernatural ability) or even simpler with a 15 ft pole. (concealable easily with hat of disguise)
- what the heck does grease have to do with rogue sneak attacks? Grease must be among the most overrated spells ever here on the boards. Please. Look at what the spell really does. And what the monk has (high reflex, high balance without putting ranks into it, high movement). The monk even mostly has no key weapon to disarm with grease.
- solid fogs helps the monk since the wizard no longer can target him with spells who uses 5ft steps to random direction to avoid the remaining ray spells. Thanks a lot!
- sex slave? Dominate monster? You mean the spell that allows a new saving through vs the, er strongest save of the monk every time you do something against the monk's nature? And not counting the initial SR here..

Pls guys. Is that your answer to how a wizard pawns the monk? As I mentioned above, illusions might do the trick. Superior intelligence (as in: divination spells, not the ability score) can also give an edge at high levels. But not these odd spell alleged "wizard win button" interpretations that are repeated over and over again.

- Giacomo

mostlyharmful
2007-12-27, 05:17 PM
Doc Brass with the "league of Extraordinary Gentlemen" backing him is a kickass idea for a wiz character (not the agonizing, worst movie in the world, painfuly asholic league of ExGen, instead the cool comic of awesomeness.).

Sir Giacomo
2007-12-27, 05:20 PM
Like I said, yeah, yeah, we know, the monk wins because he pays a wizard to win for him, or because he cripples the party until they're at the same low level as that monk, or because he takes a level in Pun-pun. We've seen your "arguments".

The same, again and again. Do you not think that people will start to realise that?
1) the monk can pay npc wizards for npc spellcasting, as per the rules. There is nothing weird about that. Like it or not, magic is available easily for everyone. Not to everyone's liking (not even mine) flavourwise, but this is how the classes are balanced. You may criticise that (again flavourwise, and also due to some mechanics that may be detrimental to the game), but you are wrong to say it does not exist because you do not like it.
2) How can a monk exactly "cripple" a party? Spellcasters also have their weak moments, you know, as provided by the rules.
3) pun-pun has no relevance here.
4) pls, pls, put up at least ONE valid argument of yours.

- Giacomo

Arbitrarity
2007-12-27, 05:34 PM
The same, again and again. Do you not think that people will start to realise that?


I taste blood. It's irony.

However. As we may recall, Shrodinger's XYZ is never a good standard for comparison. Should we wish to test these scenarios, we need to do them without the rather amorphous nature of these monks and wizards.

Then again, you don't seem to be willing to do that.

(Although, I think that a monk 20 vs wizard 20, followed by a commoner 20 against the victor would be funny.)

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-27, 06:12 PM
Erm, giacomo, you KNOW why I picked a Titan? Gate. More and more critters come, and by then, there's such a crapload of titans the wizard can just tell them "kill him" and go to sleep (FYI, I was thinking of titans because of their SLA's. Anyone who doesn't ToB or ubercharge at high levels is sorely mistaken.). If you want something else, a Pit Fiend or Solar, for Blasphemy et al. Then, I just pump up the caster level and hear the screams.

Two, no spell drowns you, alone. Nay, you just cast a few walls of X, and use the Cubic variant, then wait 'till the air runs out. Good luck gettin' outta it, sugah.

Three, Nobody expects the spanish inquisition.

Four, Grease forces a balance check. If you don't have at least 5 ranks in balance and make a check, you are flat footed. And let's face it, balance is not exactly a common skill to pick, much like changestaff or chill metal are not common spells.

Fifth, rays are SO last season. Much better to hit you with a sonic fog, an enervation, a shivering touch (from afar using spells that allow you to hit with it from range or the archmage high arcana), or somethin' like that, honey. And no, I wasn't speaking about dominate, I was speaking of something that allows you to have some more fun, like a sphere (including a Telekinetic one), a maw of chaos, or more.

Don't battle the Logic ninja, brother. It's pointless. Let yourself be assimilated, and bask in it's glory while you wait for a new go with 4th ed.

Sir Giacomo
2007-12-27, 07:33 PM
Erm, giacomo, you KNOW why I picked a Titan? Gate. More and more critters come, and by then, there's such a crapload of titans the wizard can just tell them "kill him" and go to sleep (FYI, I was thinking of titans because of their SLA's. Anyone who doesn't ToB or ubercharge at high levels is sorely mistaken.). If you want something else, a Pit Fiend or Solar, for Blasphemy et al. Then, I just pump up the caster level and hear the screams.

The screams are only of the DM bringing back your caster to rules reality. You know that gate allows you to gate in a titan for ONE service? Titan calls in new titan. Then disappears. Then you ask service of new titan to call in new titan. And so on. Great. Meanwhile, the AMF monk grapples you into oblivion.
Gating in a HD-powerful creature for blasphemy/holy word, on the other hand, is quite a good idea if
1) you know the monk's alignment beforehand (or even that he is a monk and lawful) and
2) the monk cannot flee out of range while the caster buffs the caster level.



Two, no spell drowns you, alone. Nay, you just cast a few walls of X, and use the Cubic variant, then wait 'till the air runs out. Good luck gettin' outta it, sugah.

Sugah uses dim door or etheral mode or magic item. You'll have to do better than that.


Three, Nobody expects the spanish inquisition.

True.:smallbiggrin:


Four, Grease forces a balance check. If you don't have at least 5 ranks in balance and make a check, you are flat footed. And let's face it, balance is not exactly a common skill to pick, much like changestaff or chill metal are not common spells.

Hmmm...good point. Still, the monk can simply jump out of the problem without a running start since the grease area is so limited.


Fifth, rays are SO last season. Much better to hit you with a sonic fog, an enervation, a shivering touch (from afar using spells that allow you to hit with it from range or the archmage high arcana), or somethin' like that, honey. And no, I wasn't speaking about dominate, I was speaking of something that allows you to have some more fun, like a sphere (including a Telekinetic one), a maw of chaos, or more.

sonic fog, maw of chaos: I do not know those (they are outside core, where noone talking balance should dare to venture), but useless like all the rest in an AMF. Enervation, shivering touch are subject to what I outlined above.
Spheres and maws will not make a monk a slave, the best you can hope is win a fight here - and that is fairly uncertain, I daresay. The telekinetic sphere allows both save and SR and only lasts 1 min/lvl and can be escaped via the usual methods. Any wizard attempting this stuff is definitely last season.


Don't battle the Logic ninja, brother. It's pointless. Let yourself be assimilated, and bask in it's glory while you wait for a new go with 4th ed.

What has logic ninja done to make you switch off your own reading ability of the rules, I wonder?
Yep, 4th ed. Hopefully not swerved to non-caster uberness due to these repeated fallacies.

- Giacomo

Kaelik
2007-12-27, 07:46 PM
{Scrubbed}

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-27, 07:55 PM
You DO remember I can ask for prolonged service from gated beings? Well, I make a multilayered service. Keep gating titans and making contracts with them for me until their number reaches the hundreds, then go hunt the monk and bring me his head on a meteoric adamantine platter. Done, one monk less. And IF, IF you try to grapple, there's quite a number of spells to stop you. Touch me not, let go of me, dimdoor, Telekinesis to push you back, etc.

You have one, ONE dimdoor. I have 26 (If I remember the number of spells correctly) little traps to play with. I just recast and I'm done with it. If you use a magic Item, I dispel magic, disjunct you, etc.

If you jump, I solid fog you. Better yet, I do things the OTHER way around, solid fog first, THEN grease.

Sonic fog doesn't exist. It's short for Energy admixtured Acid fog or Incendiary cloud. Maw of chaos is a level 9 spell that stuns and does 2d6 damage per level, if I remember correctly. As for AMF, that nulls your magic items. Look around for any VoP thread, and see WHY a monk doing that is asking to be hurt badly. Not to mention, quite a few of those spells are [creation] subtype. The result of them is wholly nonmagical, so I can create a sphere outside the range and then have it enter the antimagic field and hunt you. As for telekinetic, it only allows saves and SR for objects. Your Monk is not an object, I proceed to use Swift concentration and engage in making the monk suffer a horrific Humilliation Conga.

Solo
2007-12-27, 08:00 PM
The fact that a monk has to put so much effort in order to beat the wizard kinda speaks for itself.


So far, in all the "Monk vs Wizard" threads, I have heard these main strategies for the monk

1) Get a wizard to buff him up, which means that the monk needs a wizard's help to beat a wizard. Yeah. Impressive. Really impressive.

1a) Monk gets Polymorphed into something. Wee! Monk needs to use rules exploits and stinking cheese in order to win.

2) Monk invests skillpoints in UMD and uses a magic item to win. Apparently, this means that in order to succeed, a monk must put skills into something not on his skill list and use a magic item not associated with his class.

3) Flawed tactics resulting from a misunderstanding of the rules.


I hope I didn't forget anything.

mostlyharmful
2007-12-27, 08:08 PM
The fact that a monk has to put so much effort in order to beat the wizard kinda speaks for itself.

Enormously. A die hard fanatic monk looney could build an inflexible one-hit-wonder around one aprticular trick of spellcasters once they hit high eough level to have feats/skills/money to burn but until that point they're dead meat. And this doesn't touch the other fourty seven diffent tricks casters can pull without using up any resources and still have a full days worth of spell slots to mash other one trick ponies into the dirt

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-27, 08:09 PM
The fact that the wizard has to put effort NOT to make the humilliation conga as tear inducing as I am Sam further proves the point.

Sir Giacomo
2007-12-27, 08:09 PM
[Scrubbed]

Pls no insults. This is a game we are talking about, nothing to warrant deathwishes for someone else.


[Scrubbed]

A 1 min/lvl spell is being compared to a permanent extraordinary (=non-dispellable) ability here? I hope not.


[Scrubbed]

There is likely no one out there who knows ALL the non-core material for true maxing fu purposes. The game is meant to be balanced on the core rules, everything else is optional (i.e., up to the DM to allow in or not). Funnily, core AMF tactics work on all new material excepting some Forgotten Realms exceptions (i.e. campaign-specific).


[Scrubbed]

Auto-success? At higher levels, maybe? And the monk can simply ready a standard action to deal damage the moment the wizard tries to cast a spell.


[Scrubbed]

Spells? AMF (once again).
Racial immunity? Hey, are we talking classes here or races? And if you introduce morphing powers here, the monk can all replicate them, and with some nasty tricks up his sleeve to boost.


[Scrubbed]

Ah yes, confounded that with contingency, sorry. Still, you realise you have a hard time keeping the spell up 24/7, even with greater extend rod? Hard time, as in, you have to prepare ALL your 9th level spells, always, for the foresight spell (only if you are a diviner specialist you'll be able to prepare another 9th level spell by 19th level, and all may have one free at 20th level in case the INT is high enough for a 9th level bonus spell).
Plus a npc may also cast it on the monk (admittedly with less chance to keep it up constantly.
And still, you do not win initiative automatically with that.


[Scrubbed]

The wizard has 90ft fly speed if he is ready for the encounter, not when the monk goes first.
If the wizard is already flying at 60ft altitude, the monk can simply wait for the moment to strike or ambush the wizard.
Plus, many dungeon settings will not allow moving up into the air 60ft, keeping the wizard even within jumping/AMF range (the 10ft radius only needs to touch the wizard, after all).


[Scrubbed]

[Scrubbed]
Come on - it is not so bad to be proven wrong time and again. Just admit it, and we can move on.

- Giacomo

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-27, 08:13 PM
One thing: Core is DEFINETELY not balanced. Definetely. Ask in the wizards boards.

Now, what about ignoring kaelik until he calms down? Also, any problem with the tricks I presented?

Solo
2007-12-27, 08:13 PM
Come on - it is not so bad to be proven wrong time and again. Just admit it, and we can move on.


And may all of us take this advice to heart.

mostlyharmful
2007-12-27, 08:14 PM
defective computers really suck.:smallfurious:

Kaelik
2007-12-27, 08:20 PM
I honestly advise you to re-read the (core) rules yourself. They offer many, many more tactics than you seem to want to realise.
Come on - it is not so bad to be proven wrong time and again. Just admit it, and we can move on.

{Scrubbed}

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-27, 08:27 PM
Kaelik, enough. Stop flaming or you're going to crash loudly. Take a deep breath, leave the thread, and the return so you can keep debating without flaming. I'm irritated too, but I'm holding it off.

Worira
2007-12-27, 08:28 PM
I leanr english so many goods.

Also, calm the [expletive] down.

Sir Giacomo
2007-12-27, 09:00 PM
First, @Kaelik...
1) is it so difficult to simply apologise?
2) if you reprimand a non-native speaker (like myself) for his bad English, pls at least spellcheck your posts before
3) I do not know what "I would honestly kill you give half a chance" has to do with the English language. Of course it is not meant seriously (I hope), but it is bad style not normally tolerated on these boards.
4) On your grappling cleric example (cleric? where did that come from if the OP introduced a monk vs wizard thread?): monk is alone, greater dispel is not available. Monk is not alone, he can withdraw. If enemies concentrate on rest of party, monk returns quickly (if he needed to withdraw in the first place). If enemies pursue monk, party has advantage.


One thing: Core is DEFINETELY not balanced. Definetely. Ask in the wizards boards.


Mass delusion does not truth make :smallbiggrin:

Anyhow, and before moving to your "tricks" - it is remarkable how this ironically intentioned thread to once again heap shame on the monk class is now turning to "ah, yes, a monk may have chance if he is strangely maxed". We are making slow advances...good...:smallbiggrin:

Ah, and some words @Solo...


The fact that a monk has to put so much effort in order to beat the wizard kinda speaks for itself.

You realise that the effort to pull together all spells for the wizard and surviving at all to the higher levels is also quite some "effort"?


So far, in all the "Monk vs Wizard" threads, I have heard these main strategies for the monk

1) Get a wizard to buff him up, which means that the monk needs a wizard's help to beat a wizard. Yeah. Impressive. Really impressive.

And a wizard gets most of his class abilities from other wizards and items (scrolls). Yeah, that is more impressive.



1a) Monk gets Polymorphed into something. Wee! Monk needs to use rules exploits and stinking cheese in order to win.

Rules "exploits"? What strange double standards are kept tossed around here? Wizard casting no-danger gates with no-problem long services and that is considered less chessey than a 4th level spell? That is ridiculous. Plus, the monk vs the wizard does not need morph, only AMF.



2) Monk invests skillpoints in UMD and uses a magic item to win. Apparently, this means that in order to succeed, a monk must put skills into something not on his skill list and use a magic item not associated with his class.

So what? And: what the UMDed items do sometimes synergises better with the monk abilities than with those of other classes. Plus, the UMD does not REPLACE the monk class ability, but complement them.


3) Flawed tactics resulting from a misunderstanding of the rules.

Yes. This is what I have learned from the "uber caster" zealots on these boards so far.

Now back to the more detailed ideas of Azerian Kelimon.


You DO remember I can ask for prolonged service from gated beings? Well, I make a multilayered service. Keep gating titans and making contracts with them for me until their number reaches the hundreds, then go hunt the monk and bring me his head on a meteoric adamantine platter. Done, one monk less.

As you said. You can ASK for it. No DM is going to allow that to you for simply showing off that any non-gate-casting class is useless. The exact conditions what exact payment the gated creature will demand are worded too fuzzy for this to make a reliable tactics. And definitely no infinite titan chain is coming into being for that, since you would have to offer the appropriate payment for something infinite (i.e. infinite reward).


And IF, IF you try to grapple, there's quite a number of spells to stop you. Touch me not, let go of me, dimdoor, Telekinesis to push you back, etc.

Spells? Again? Vs an AMF monk?


You have one, ONE dimdoor. I have 26 (If I remember the number of spells correctly) little traps to play with. I just recast and I'm done with it. If you use a magic Item, I dispel magic, disjunct you, etc.

Er..that one dim door is enough. After that, the wizard will have to resort to scrying tactics to find the monk again, and if the monk has moved etherally into solid ground etherally or used some lesser concealment that is going to be quite difficult.
Disjunct has a chance to work vs an AMF (not IN an AMF), but it is quite low.


If you jump, I solid fog you. Better yet, I do things the OTHER way around, solid fog first, THEN grease.

Er...yes? No big advantage gained here.


Sonic fog doesn't exist. It's short for Energy admixtured Acid fog or Incendiary cloud. Maw of chaos is a level 9 spell that stuns and does 2d6 damage per level, if I remember correctly.

Good stuff. Does Maw of chaos allow reflex saves (hello improved evasion). Or other saves? Or SR? Otherwise, we'd simply have to go to the WoTC maxing boards to ask if there is anything (feat, item or whatever) that would help the monk here. Belt of battle comes to my mind, offering more actions per round.


As for AMF, that nulls your magic items. Look around for any VoP thread, and see WHY a monk doing that is asking to be hurt badly. Not to mention, quite a few of those spells are [creation] subtype. The result of them is wholly nonmagical, so I can create a sphere outside the range and then have it enter the antimagic field and hunt you.

Once again (why is it overread so often?): THE AMF GETS ACTIVATED ONLY WHEN IT IS USEFUL TO DO SO. Not before. Not after. Or does the wizard cast maw of chaos at thin air, before the monk has arrived?
And even creation conjuration spells cannot be cast WITHIN the AMF. Cast from outside, they can affect people inside the AMF, though.


As for telekinetic, it only allows saves and SR for objects. Your Monk is not an object, I proceed to use Swift concentration and engage in making the monk suffer a horrific Humilliation Conga.

Hmmm. Yes. I saw that before - but the text of the spell (read the first sentence) suggests a spelling error, and the text normally trumps the table indication (normally the text says something like "the spell is like xxx except as noted above AND...). Still, even with no save/no SR cheese the monk simply uses dim door or similar effect items to escape.
Or, at 8th level spell availability the monk has a compartively cheap rod of cancellation available (which is NOT used up by striking a spell force effect, only when it strikes magic items).
Even in the worst case, the humilation conga sounds more like an impasse conga to me - the monk cannot get out, the wizard cannot cast in.

OK. Must sleep now....

- Giacomo

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-27, 09:21 PM
Heh. I just have to pay each titan of the hundreds to do the job, not infinite. With Walls of Salt to generate gross and sick amounts of cash, I think I can get 'em anything they want. And "Anything you want, short of anything that will harm me in some way" is really good reward for a simple task as hunting a monk.

On the second thing, I can use Anti grapple gear, which costs a few hundred gold and gives me a +20 bonus to all grapple checks. Not too much, and then you can't grapple well. IF you manage, I still can do concentration checks too.

Also, as far as I know, Dimdoor can only teleport you an amount of feet. If you flee, shouldn't be too hard to follow your trail. There's even a number of spells for tracking.

Solid fog limits ALL your movement to a max of 5' a round. Good luck exiting a centered grease with it.

Maw of chaos is Will save or daze. Nifty, since you're BOUND to fail a save some time.

Also, D'you KNOW how much a AMF at will item costs? This, assuming a standard action to activate, which allows a wizard to simply exit it and cast something to get away. Quite simply, it hoses your resources so much you DON'T want it.

And yes, a telekinetic can be nulled by a rod of cancellation. You lose a round on it. Net result is a gained action for the wizard.

Khatoblepas
2007-12-27, 09:44 PM
Heh. I just have to pay each titan of the hundreds to do the job, not infinite. With Walls of Salt to generate gross and sick amounts of cash, I think I can get 'em anything they want. And "Anything you want, short of anything that will harm me in some way" is really good reward for a simple task as hunting a monk.

You do realise that the rules of inflation WOULD exist even within a fantasy setting? You can't just Wall of Salt up loads of money - you're creating too much supply for not enough demand (the demand is inversely proportional to the supply. Each pound of salt's worth will approach zero the more you sell). The salt would become worthless. What if the Titans want something that you can't supply - because your income is now as worthless as overprinted money?

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-27, 09:52 PM
Two words: Unlimited planes.

You can never have enough salt.

SpiderKoopa
2007-12-27, 09:53 PM
The monk, because he secretly took wizard at second level and never looked back.

I say we stop all this arguing and support this poster's answer!:smallwink:

Edit: Oh, who am I kidding? It's pretty entertaining. Go Kaelik! Go Giacomo!

Freelance Henchman
2007-12-27, 09:53 PM
Two words: Unlimited planes.

You can never have enough salt.

Well, except in the quasi-elemental plane of Salt. :smallsmile:

Reel On, Love
2007-12-27, 09:54 PM
Giacomo, you persist in quite intentionally misreading any number of rules, and cling to a whole bunch of false assumptions.

Like the whole "I can just get a wizard to follow me around casting spells on me" thing. I've asked you about your games before, to no avail. Do you REALLY play in games where you can pay an NPC spellcaster to follow you around and buff you for fights? How do you get access to spellcasting services whenever you want and whenever you are?
Do you REALLY play in games where the cleric routinely loses his spellcasting and the wizard routinely gets his spellbook stolen? Do you really think that doing this over and over is good DMing and creates balance (or is possible when the cleric is doing what his god should and the wizard is protecting his spellbook)?
Do you REALLY play in games where Gating something in automatically makes it track you down and kill you no matter its alignment relative to yours, whether it has any means of doing so, or what else it's doing? How do you manage to justify Solars plane-shifting over to the material plane, finding a Good-aligned wizard who gated them in to kill [evil creature X], and killing him?
And do you REALLY think that anyone being able to cast a 9th level spell so powerful you have to die whenever you use the XP-costing version (seeing as how in your games, Gate apparently means you get hunted down by anything you called, no matter what they're busy with) without paying for the XP cost (the XP is not factored into the Candle's cost) is anything short of broken? What if a Charmed or Dominated low-level NPC uses the candle for the PC (and then gets killed by a Solar instead)?

Do you REALLY honestly think that a Rod of Cancellation, priced as a one-use item, somehow stops being one-use when it's used on spells? Do you think the FAQ would support you if you sent that in as a question?
(Do you REALLY think "help me fight this opponent by doing X, Y, and Z" is multiple tasks, rather than clarification of a single instruction?)

Do you REALLY think that being touched by an animal isn't the same thing as touching an animal? How do you manage to justify that, seeing as how when two things are touching, they're touching each other?

Polymorph is broken. I've shown you before how it doesn't advantage the monk any more than any other melee character (all of whom have synergy with it). From Rogue sneak attacks to Barbarian rage to Fighter feats and reach weapons to Paladins who focus on CHA if they can expect to be Polymorphed all the time just like your monk apparently focuses on WIS and CHA rather than the stats he might need...
Polymorph is broken, Giacomo. Even WotC tacitly admitted this (by introducing the new Polymorph type--the only reason the old spells are unaffected is that WotC never changes old material like that), just like they introduced the Shapechange variant for Druids because Druids are too good. Look at the ENORMOUS and hugely flexible benefits Polymorph provides. Why is it a fourth-level spell, again? Do you REALLY think Polymorph doesn't CR-appropriate encounters wide open?

Your argument that cross-classing UMD for the purpose of Anti-Magic fields is a good strategy in-game is how the classes were supposed to be balanced is patently ridiculous. A cross-class skill is an option, but it's certainly not what a character is SUPPOSED to do. You're also investing way too many resources. What does your monk do when he ISN'T polymorphed? Whip out his smoke bottle? Oh, right, no adventuring party tolerates that because it harms them as much as the enemy.
(Do you REALLY play in games where the other people base their characters around avoiding the negative effects of an item your character plans to buy?)

No, your monk apparently runs away until the party kills enough things for him to be able to afford a Wand of Polymorph, since he can't do anything in melee when he isn't polymorphed.

Using up scrolls of Antimagic Field whenever you see a spellcaster is a good way to run out of money. It's also a good way to waste it, since if you see the spellcaster, he sees you (do you REALLY play in games where you ambush all or even most of your enemies?) and he can tell you're casting Antimagic Field and takes measures against it.

You keep talking about a monk that neglects physical stats because he'll be polymorphed all the time (party members have nothing better to do, and he never runs out of gold, apparently) and focuses on raising UMD to levels where he can actually regularly activate wands and high-level scrolls (what does he do BEFORE his UMD is that high? Hell, how does he survive the first five levels?), and carries a smoke bottle which his party somehow doesn't mind. He also, apparently, is powerful because he took Leadership to have a wizard cohort (isn't it the *wizard* who's powerful? Wouldn't you be more powerful as a wizard with a monk cohort, or a wizard with a wizard cohort? Isn't pointing at what amounts to *another character* to justify your character absurd?).

Let's set aside the fact that this is as atypical a character you can get and obviously not how the game is "meant" to be. Let's forget about wealth-by-level limitations, about , about filling a role in a party. Let's not even discuss the fact that apparently, to be effective, a Monk HAS to fit one specific, counterintuitive build (max out UMD) AND a specific, broken spell (Polymorph) and what that says about the class.
Instead, let's ask this question: Have you EVER, even ONCE, played a monk like that? Really? Do you think that if you tried, you wouldn't have any problems, either in-game (surviving without Polymorph) or from other players (for running away or choking/blinding them with the smoke bottle) or the DM?

Reel On, Love
2007-12-27, 09:57 PM
You do realise that the rules of inflation WOULD exist even within a fantasy setting? You can't just Wall of Salt up loads of money - you're creating too much supply for not enough demand (the demand is inversely proportional to the supply. Each pound of salt's worth will approach zero the more you sell). The salt would become worthless. What if the Titans want something that you can't supply - because your income is now as worthless as overprinted money?

Then you Planar Bind an efreeti and have it grant the Titan two wishes. Have it grant you the third, and wish for a Ring of Quickened, Twinned, Transdimensional, Etc. Wish At Will (seeing as how SLAs don't have XP components)... something which Giacomo will probably find a way of claiming is balanced. (After all, non-casters can cross-class UMD and planar bind an efreeti, too! That makes it okay! And the efreeti will.. get extra-planar friends to hunt you down and kill you!)

Frosty
2007-12-27, 10:02 PM
I gotta hand it to Giacomo for never resorting to insults. That much is commendable.

Still, I think the "paying an NPC spellcaster to follow me around" does ruin the flavor of the game, and at least in my games is not allowed on a normal basis.

But then, we're debating RAW here, and RAW is never, ever actually played because the DM ALWAYS has the final say.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-27, 10:02 PM
Or, y'know, you just 'port to any of the Outer planes. They're infinite, so you're BOUND to find someone who wants salt by the metric ton.

Armads
2007-12-27, 10:03 PM
Mass delusion does not truth make :smallbiggrin:

Singular delusion isn't true, either.



You realise that the effort to pull together all spells for the wizard and surviving at all to the higher levels is also quite some "effort"?

Survival's rather easy for wizards at level 3 (rope trick, alter self into flying stuff). After that, it only gets easier (until level 17+, where they sit in towers, teleport around and kill dragons for fun).



And a wizard gets most of his class abilities from other wizards and items (scrolls). Yeah, that is more impressive.

Except that they easily use the scrolls without doing anything other than making a caster level check? And they actually get spells themselves, and can research themselves, AND DONT DEPEND ON ANOTHER CLASS to defeat challenges of their CR?



Rules "exploits"? What strange double standards are kept tossed around here? Wizard casting no-danger gates with no-problem long services and that is considered less chessey than a 4th level spell? That is ridiculous. Plus, the monk vs the wizard does not need morph, only AMF.

Gate doesn't get you killed by the RAW. RAW says "outsiders may come back and try to sabotage/kill you". It doesn't say "Outsiders WILL come back and try to kill you". It's not considered less cheesy than Polymorph. The reason why Gate's used in this discussion is because you stick to using Polymorph, which is a broken spell (fight cheese with cheese!).



So what? And: what the UMDed items do sometimes synergises better with the monk abilities than with those of other classes. Plus, the UMD does not REPLACE the monk class ability, but complement them.

UMD isn't a monk class ability. It's not even a class skill for monks. It's going to be quite hard to make your UMD checks, since you don't have it as a class skill.



Yes. This is what I have learned from the "uber caster" zealots on these boards so far.

ROFL. He's referring to you...



As you said. You can ASK for it. No DM is going to allow that to you for simply showing off that any non-gate-casting class is useless. The exact conditions what exact payment the gated creature will demand are worded too fuzzy for this to make a reliable tactics. And definitely no infinite titan chain is coming into being for that, since you would have to offer the appropriate payment for something infinite (i.e. infinite reward).

So? This is a RAW discussion. "DM won't let you do this, DM won't let you do that" doesn't apply here.



Spells? Again? Vs an AMF monk?


AMF has 10ft radius. I don't think the wizard's going to stone around within 10ft of the monk, is he? Anyway, Sculpted AMF beats the monk easily.



Er..that one dim door is enough. After that, the wizard will have to resort to scrying tactics to find the monk again, and if the monk has moved etherally into solid ground etherally or used some lesser concealment that is going to be quite difficult.
Disjunct has a chance to work vs an AMF (not IN an AMF), but it is quite low.

Your AMF isn't continuously up. So the wizard disjunctions you while it's not up.



Er...yes? No big advantage gained here.

No big advantage? You move 5ft per round.



Good stuff. Does Maw of chaos allow reflex saves (hello improved evasion). Or other saves? Or SR? Otherwise, we'd simply have to go to the WoTC maxing boards to ask if there is anything (feat, item or whatever) that would help the monk here. Belt of battle comes to my mind, offering more actions per round.

Belt of battle? Whatever happened to "non core"? Maw of Chaos deals 1d6/level damage, no save, then forces a will save to avoid being dazed for 1 round.



Once again (why is it overread so often?): THE AMF GETS ACTIVATED ONLY WHEN IT IS USEFUL TO DO SO. Not before. Not after. Or does the wizard cast maw of chaos at thin air, before the monk has arrived?

DISJUNCTION. WHEE



And even creation conjuration spells cannot be cast WITHIN the AMF. Cast from outside, they can affect people inside the AMF, though.

That's the idea. Cast orbs of acid and fling them in.



Hmmm. Yes. I saw that before - but the text of the spell (read the first sentence) suggests a spelling error, and the text normally trumps the table indication (normally the text says something like "the spell is like xxx except as noted above AND...). Still, even with no save/no SR cheese the monk simply uses dim door or similar effect items to escape.

Has it been errata'ed? Or is this your "interpretation". "Oh, it's bad for the monk, so I'll Interpret it in another way, even though it's baseless!



Or, at 8th level spell availability the monk has a comparatively cheap rod of cancellation available (which is NOT used up by striking a spell force effect, only when it strikes magic items).

You have one? If you have 1, the wizard teleports away, picks up his rod of absorption, filled to 50 spell levels, so he NEVER needs to expend his spell slots, beyond the 7th level greater teleport he used (or the Greater Teleport SLA)



Even in the worst case, the humilation conga sounds more like an impasse conga to me - the monk cannot get out, the wizard cannot cast in.

But you were hugely advantaged at the start, weren't you? So from an 'advantageous' position to a draw, hasn't the monk failed?

Btw, the challenge ends up in a draw, because due to RAW, nobody is restricted by death. So even if the monk dies, he still can do his monk thing. Same goes for the wizard.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-27, 10:07 PM
Man, Giacomo is in a spot where only one thing can save him now, and it's a...

C-C-COMBO BREAKER!

Roland St. Jude
2007-12-27, 10:41 PM
Sheriff of Moddingham: Please abide by the Forum Rules, which prohibit flaming other posters.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-27, 10:42 PM
Very ironically, exactly after I announced the combo breaker, the thread got a lockdown. Coincidence?

Solo
2007-12-27, 11:00 PM
SG, a wizard beats people by using wizard items and scrolls and etc. This is what a wizard is designed to do.

If a monk must rely on using wizard items and scrolls to beat people, then I submit there is something wrong because he isn't using his class abilities.

Same with UMD tricks. UMD is not a monk class skill. There weren't designed with UMDing scrolls of PAO as a tactic to stay a viable class. In a perfectly balanced game, monks (and all pure melee types) would be able to fight against wizards and other casters by doing martial things, not resorting to UMD or hiring casters to buff them up.

That the monk cannot fight well at higher levels by doing monk things like Unarmed Strike, Grappling, Stunning Fist, etc, while the wizard does fine by using his own class abilities speaks for itself.

Reel On, Love
2007-12-27, 11:03 PM
Very ironically, exactly after I announced the combo breaker, the thread got a lockdown. Coincidence?

How is that ironic?

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-27, 11:06 PM
I was joking about the breaker. Guess that R St. J took a few levels in Serious Sam.

Roland St. Jude
2007-12-27, 11:30 PM
I was joking about the breaker. Guess that R St. J took a few levels in Serious Sam.

What in St. Cuthbert's name are you talking about? Your comment had nothing to do with the thread lock. I locked it to review/scrub Kaelik's deathwish/death-threats. Which are now gone. Feel free to carry on with whatever combo breaking whatchamacalits you want - as long as you don't violate the board Rules.

Also, I think "coincidence" is closer to what you mean than "ironically."

Nowhere Girl
2007-12-27, 11:50 PM
What amazes me is I posted this thread purely as a joke, really just trolling, and it's gone on for ... goodness, six pages now. :smalltongue:

Although my trolling was meant to be benign and fun, not the mean kind mentioned in the rules. I'm saddened a little by the fact that it inspired flaming. :smallfrown:

Mr.Moron
2007-12-28, 12:06 AM
What amazes me is I posted this thread purely as a joke, really just trolling, and it's gone on for ... goodness, six pages now. :smalltongue:

Although my trolling was meant to be benign and fun, not the mean kind mentioned in the rules. I'm saddened a little by the fact that it inspired flaming. :smallfrown:

Looks like people have been listening to the wrong talking fist. Speaking of which, I've yet to see somebody suggest a viable counter to them. Frankly I'm not sure it's possible, given the swedish accents.

Mojo_Rat
2007-12-28, 02:00 AM
What amazes me is I posted this thread purely as a joke, really just trolling, and it's gone on for ... goodness, six pages now. :smalltongue:

Although my trolling was meant to be benign and fun, not the mean kind mentioned in the rules. I'm saddened a little by the fact that it inspired flaming. :smallfrown:


What honestly dragged me in in the early parts of the thread wre the 'monks loose no matter what' mentality alot of players express . It really grates on my nerves ignores things like /fun/ and so on.

the fact that many players seriously believe a monk cant win vs a blind brain dead parapalegic wizard says more about them as players than it does about either monks or wizards.

Reel On, Love
2007-12-28, 02:29 AM
I was joking about the breaker. Guess that R St. J took a few levels in Serious Sam.

Again, how is that ironic? You keep using that word; I do not think it means what you think it means. In fact, it means the opposite; you were looking for "appropriate".

Emperor Demonking
2007-12-28, 05:41 AM
Don't you see he just wanted to get Rolandto post again.


So what have we learnt, one of two things. "Magic must defeat magic." or for a monk to win he must become a wizard.

By the way where are you getting the AMF.

Indon
2007-12-28, 09:44 AM
What amazes me is I posted this thread purely as a joke, really just trolling, and it's gone on for ... goodness, six pages now. :smalltongue:

Although my trolling was meant to be benign and fun, not the mean kind mentioned in the rules. I'm saddened a little by the fact that it inspired flaming. :smallfrown:

The Wizard who came into this thread was prepared, you see, and fouled all of your plans with a well-laid spell combo which, of course, he had memorized all along for just such an occasion.

Meaning that the resulting pro-Wizard propaganda is all going according to plan...

Kaelik
2007-12-28, 01:34 PM
The Wizard who came into this thread was prepared, you see, and fouled all of your plans with a well-laid spell combo which, of course, he had memorized all along for just such an occasion.

Meaning that the resulting pro-Wizard propaganda is all going according to plan...

Not with spell combo. With a single use of a common Wizard SLA.


What honestly dragged me in in the early parts of the thread wre the 'monks loose no matter what' mentality alot of players express . It really grates on my nerves ignores things like /fun/ and so on.

the fact that many players seriously believe a monk cant win vs a blind brain dead parapalegic wizard says more about them as players than it does about either monks or wizards.

No one thinks a Monk loses no matter what. It's only that a Conscious Wizard wins no matter what. This situation would play out exactly the same with a Fighter, Barbarian, Rogue, Psychic Warrior, Duskblade, Ranger, or anyone else who doesn't have anti-magic field and can't kill the Wizard before he is capable of taking the single mental action (which means it gives no warning, and he can pretend to be unconscious until he activates it) that instantly transports him to a nearby Temple of [insert his God here.]

EDIT: Because Giamoco will inevitably say that "Everyone has access to Anti-Magic Field" and I won't see it and be able to respond, let me assure you, that to keep up a continuous AMF on an unconscious Wizard while holding him captive you need to be a very high level Cleric/Archivist or a high level Wizard

Kurald Galain
2007-12-28, 01:51 PM
The Wizard who came into this thread was prepared, you see, and fouled all of your plans with a well-laid spell combo which, of course, he had memorized all along for just such an occasion.

Yep. That's because the Wizard has a 26+ intelligence. :smallbiggrin:

Indon
2007-12-28, 02:19 PM
Not with spell combo. With a single use of a common Wizard SLA.

Oh, that's even better.


Yep. That's because the Wizard has a 26+ intelligence. :smallbiggrin:

26? Pish. Maybe if you like making gimped wizards. You should name a more realistic figure, like 40 or something.

Kaelik
2007-12-28, 02:40 PM
26? Pish. Maybe if you like making gimped wizards. You should name a more realistic figure, like 40 or something.

The correct answer depends on level, but at level 20, the answer is either 34 or 36. All other answers are wrong.

Indon
2007-12-28, 02:49 PM
The correct answer depends on level, but at level 20, the answer is either 34 or 36. All other answers are wrong.

Now that's how you build a wizard with a dollop of common sense and no unusual amount of optimization!

Kaelik
2007-12-28, 03:01 PM
Now that's how you build a wizard with a dollop of common sense and no unusual amount of optimization!

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not, but I'd like to point out that his theoretical opponent is a Monk with 18 Wis/18 Cha/14 Int/8 Physical for base stats, who spends all his time Polymorphed (because Wizards never have time to buff themselves, but every Monk ever has time/money to be constantly polymorphed for whatever he faces.) and has a custom item of AMF with a duration of always but that can be dispelled as a free action by the Monk, and reactivated by making a UMD check exactly equal to the one the monk always makes (I assume he dipped Exemplar 1 to help with that.) The UMD check only exists as a disadvantage (that doesn't effect him) so that he can bring the price within reasonable levels.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-28, 03:04 PM
Y'know the reason it was ironic? I expected the thread to go on for, at least, 2 more pages, but JUST after I posted the breaker, it got a lockdown. THAT'S the irony. The breaker was intended as a response to the flood of posts against giacomo, which apparently were going to continue for a long while, but just then...lockity.

BTW, Serious sam, in case someone doesn't know, is a character from a line of games of the same name, FPS. He's like Duke Nukem, but is dead serious, which is the source of much humour.

Mojo_Rat
2007-12-28, 03:08 PM
Not with spell combo. With a single use of a common Wizard SLA.



No one thinks a Monk loses no matter what. It's only that a Conscious Wizard wins no matter what. This situation would play out exactly the same with a Fighter, Barbarian, Rogue, Psychic Warrior, Duskblade, Ranger, or anyone else who doesn't have anti-magic field and can't kill the Wizard before he is capable of taking the single mental action (which means it gives no warning, and he can pretend to be unconscious until he activates it) that instantly transports him to a nearby Temple of [insert his God here.]

See my point is, you cant prepare for everything and most of the posts inf avour of the wizard seemed to wholly ignore the monks strong points. The monk honestly is one of the most survivable classes int he game espcialy when your oponent is trying to hit you with magic. Litteraly 50% of the Wizards spells will fail to work and the ones that do go throuh have to deal witht he best Save scheme in the game for base classes.

My argument has nothing to do with stuff like UMD and using AMF or such. Simply looking at the monks mobilities its saves its ability to hit and run and the fact that the monk has at least one Save or die effect and a number of might as well be dead (stunned) effects.

It is theoretically int hw ziards favour but no matter how mucht he wizard prepares it isnt a set thing. .

I also find the attack on what is honestly a really fun class to play agravating. Ive played the game for 20 years now and Ive never encountered anyone in Rl that Plays with the attitudes expressed on these and the wizard forums towards the classes. So it admitedly grates on my nerves a fair bith.

Sir Giacomo
2007-12-28, 04:53 PM
Hi again,

maybe in the new year I'll finally get to post a (core) monk build lvl 1-20 which can help focus some of the occasionally mushrooming monk vs xy threads.

For now, I'll try to explain my points again alongside Reel On, Love's above comments.


Giacomo, you persist in quite intentionally misreading any number of rules, and cling to a whole bunch of false assumptions.

Intentionally misreading rules? No, I would accuse no side of this - the only thing which astonishes me is when I point out existing rules and it still gets ignored or considered as "DM fiat". The MAIN assumption from the caster-supporter side here is that 100% of the logic ninja batman guide is valid and should be the standard of playing. And that's one heroic assumption to make, as I show time and again.


Like the whole "I can just get a wizard to follow me around casting spells on me" thing. I've asked you about your games before, to no avail. Do you REALLY play in games where you can pay an NPC spellcaster to follow you around and buff you for fights? How do you get access to spellcasting services whenever you want and whenever you are?

Now, that is a serious misinterpretation of what I posted so far. I never said that I imagine a normal campaign where you pay caster npcs to come along (although there are rules for that in the DMG).
Similarly, I do not even assume that cohorts gained in- and outside of leaderhship should accompany a non-caster on his adventures.
The only thing I am maintaining is that you can pay for spellcasting (or get npc spell access for free via leadership, cohorts or diplomacy or intimidate) between adventures for long-lasting buffs (and there are not that many) and instantaneous spells/cures.
Typical examples:
- permanencie'd enlarge
- polymorph any object
- Hero's feast
- mind blank

Alternatively, you can simply get spells from npcs into your ring or weapon of spell storing.



Do you REALLY play in games where the cleric routinely loses his spellcasting and the wizard routinely gets his spellbook stolen? Do you really think that doing this over and over is good DMing and creates balance (or is possible when the cleric is doing what his god should and the wizard is protecting his spellbook)?

"Routinely"? This is taking polemics a bit far. I never said anything about "routinely". Only that the danger of losing your spellcasting through "ex-xxx"-sections should come up during the levels 1-20. And not that it should NEVER occur, as many caster supporters would love to have (not backed up by the rules).
And yes, it is good DMing to take into consideration the advantages AND disadvantages of a class. Should a fighter never be targeted by a will save spell (his weak area)? Or should a monk never be attacked by a huge creature in melee combat? Or should a rogue never have to make a poison save?



Do you REALLY play in games where Gating something in automatically makes it track you down and kill you no matter its alignment relative to yours, whether it has any means of doing so, or what else it's doing? How do you manage to justify Solars plane-shifting over to the material plane, finding a Good-aligned wizard who gated them in to kill [evil creature X], and killing him?

Again, what is this polemics about? Pls show me the post where I say that gate means you AUTOMATICALLY get pursued by the creatuer called after the casting of the spell. I only maintain that the use of this spell is RISKY since there is a possibility that the creature has been called unwilling. And I never said that a solar would KILL the good wizard for having called him. Only that a divine retribution appropriate for such a creature could happen (say, the destruction of all summoning/calling spells in that wizard's spellbook).



And do you REALLY think that anyone being able to cast a 9th level spell so powerful you have to die whenever you use the XP-costing version (seeing as how in your games, Gate apparently means you get hunted down by anything you called, no matter what they're busy with) without paying for the XP cost (the XP is not factored into the Candle's cost) is anything short of broken? What if a Charmed or Dominated low-level NPC uses the candle for the PC (and then gets killed by a Solar instead)?

You see, and this is where I do not understand you. I show you the rules passages which actually mean that a gate spell is NOT broken. And then, of course, a magic item that in a one-off use can cast gate is likewise not broken. And do you not think the Solar is able to find out that a dominated npc has used the candle on behalf of someone else (sense motive check is allowed here)?
Seriously, why are you so adamant about admitting being wrong here?
What I do admit is that the candle strangely costs much less* (EDIT see below) than the respective scroll for gate. It may have been because the designers thought it a great roleplaying opportunity to introduce some kind of uber creature for atmosphere in a mid-level adventure. In duels, the candle may be silly (and btw quite unreliable for its cost), in normal play it could be even more risky to use since the characters of mid level normally lack any information about 1) what creature to call in the first place and 2) what abilities such a creature has (remember, this necessitates the appropriate knowledge checks which get increasingly difficult the more you want to know about it).



Do you REALLY honestly think that a Rod of Cancellation, priced as a one-use item, somehow stops being one-use when it's used on spells? Do you think the FAQ would support you if you sent that in as a question?
(Do you REALLY think "help me fight this opponent by doing X, Y, and Z" is multiple tasks, rather than clarification of a single instruction?)

Why should a magic item which could drain a 200,000 gp item also be discharged by dispelling a simple 5th level spell?
And why shouldn't there be a quite fairly priced item for overcoming no-save, no-SR force effects? (at 11,000 the rod would be horrendously priced for a one-use item, anyhow, more expensive than all scrolls except for wish).
Why do you always go with the interpretation of rules that put a wizard into the league of superbeings instead of balanced character class that is obviously intended by the rules?



Do you REALLY think that being touched by an animal isn't the same thing as touching an animal? How do you manage to justify that, seeing as how when two things are touching, they're touching each other?

Yes, in the normal sense of the word, yes. But not in game mechanics where when you wish to touch someone, you have to do it actively, and where touch spells are not triggered by someone accidently bumping into you.


Polymorph is broken. I've shown you before how it doesn't advantage the monk any more than any other melee character (all of whom have synergy with it). From Rogue sneak attacks to Barbarian rage to Fighter feats and reach weapons to Paladins who focus on CHA if they can expect to be Polymorphed all the time just like your monk apparently focuses on WIS and CHA rather than the stats he might need...
Polymorph is broken, Giacomo. Even WotC tacitly admitted this (by introducing the new Polymorph type--the only reason the old spells are unaffected is that WotC never changes old material like that), just like they introduced the Shapechange variant for Druids because Druids are too good. Look at the ENORMOUS and hugely flexible benefits Polymorph provides. Why is it a fourth-level spell, again? Do you REALLY think Polymorph doesn't CR-appropriate encounters wide open?

And I showed you repeatedly why polymorph is NOT broken and why it benefits the monk most (a class not dependent on artificial weapons and focused on unarmaed combat with bonus feats, quivering palm, best stunned maneuvers, best unarmed damage and flurry).
Polymorph is a way to put up the power of non-caster classes in high level play.
It basically provides you better movement, often including fly, better STR, sometimes better DEX, and better AC - all only for 1 min/lvl, whereas other buffs also making this available are either lower level and/or last longer.
However, it limits you to melee which may not always be advisable. At the time where polymorph is available, there may be archers around able to do 4 attacks/round, 3 attacks/round 24/7 without melee damage risk.
NOW IF you ask me whether I llike this balancer in the game, I would say that it is not THAT atmospheric if you see polymorph or even enlarge as regular buff as haste or divine power. At least not in all campaigns, but it is provided as a balancing factor by the RAW.
Note that I would not advise all classes to take polymorph. For instance, I would never morph as a fighter since that class is a weapon master and shines when it uses the weapons of the size the fighter normally has.


Your argument that cross-classing UMD for the purpose of Anti-Magic fields is a good strategy in-game is how the classes were supposed to be balanced is patently ridiculous. A cross-class skill is an option, but it's certainly not what a character is SUPPOSED to do.

In a post somewhere I once read the insightful comment "What use does AMF have for a wizard/sorcerer? They are crippling themselves with it!". Which points to what the AMF is about: it is for the non-casting classes. And access to it is restricted because otherwise no-one would like to play the caster classes any more.
So it is DIFFICULT to use AMF tactics, but this does not mean it should not be done.



You're also investing way too many resources. What does your monk do when he ISN'T polymorphed? Whip out his smoke bottle? Oh, right, no adventuring party tolerates that because it harms them as much as the enemy.
(Do you REALLY play in games where the other people base their characters around avoiding the negative effects of an item your character plans to buy?)

No, I play in games where the players use their characters' abilities when it is useful to the group, not when it hurts them.
Do you think a SWAT team uses smoke grenades to hurt themselves? Or the enemy?
I can accept people say the eversmonking bottle with the normal (choking) smoke interpretation is too powerful. But not that it is not useful at all for a party.
On the "investing way too many resources" thing:
- eversmoking bottle costs 5,400 gp
- wand of polymorphing costs 21,000 gp with 50 charges, or appropriate fractions
Given that a monk through his many class abilities covers already many areas that other classes need to spend their money on, he can afford it better than others.



No, your monk apparently runs away until the party kills enough things for him to be able to afford a Wand of Polymorph, since he can't do anything in melee when he isn't polymorphed.

Stun? Grapple? Trip?
Hint: Wand of Enlarge is actually quite cheap, but it is more useful for the party to buff a melee monk with the arcane caster's enlarge.
At high levels, a party able to clear the way for the monk to the BBEG for simultaneous stun/quivering palm has a good chance to take down that BBEG who may be buffed sky high to avoid being overcome by magic.



Using up scrolls of Antimagic Field whenever you see a spellcaster is a good way to run out of money. It's also a good way to waste it, since if you see the spellcaster, he sees you (do you REALLY play in games where you ambush all or even most of your enemies?) and he can tell you're casting Antimagic Field and takes measures against it.

AMF costs 1,650 per scroll. At high levels, this is not "burning" cash for the rare occasions where the monk sees no chance to overcome a caster foe with conventional means. Which means, in "normal" course of adventures, if the party faces the lower-level tricky caster minion the monk will not use the AMF. When the BBEG is faced, much more likely he will use it.
Plus, if the party believes occasionally AMF tactics are highly useful against uber casters, they will likely pay for the AMF out of the group pool (similar to raise deads, etc.).


You keep talking about a monk that neglects physical stats because he'll be polymorphed all the time (party members have nothing better to do, and he never runs out of gold, apparently) and focuses on raising UMD to levels where he can actually regularly activate wands and high-level scrolls (what does he do BEFORE his UMD is that high? Hell, how does he survive the first five levels?), and carries a smoke bottle which his party somehow doesn't mind.

Not all possible monk builds I so far talked about carry an eversmoking bottle or "neglect" physical stats.
But the reference to "how does he survive the first five levels" is a classic own goal, I daresay. You do realise that it is the sorcerer and wizard who have to fear for their very survival at those levels while the monk has better saves, double hp, better skills and higher AC to survive even without good physical stats?** (EDIT II see below)


He also, apparently, is powerful because he took Leadership to have a wizard cohort (isn't it the *wizard* who's powerful? Wouldn't you be more powerful as a wizard with a monk cohort, or a wizard with a wizard cohort? Isn't pointing at what amounts to *another character* to justify your character absurd?).

Once again. Npc casting is outside adventures and last at least a day to be of use in adventures (in rare circumstances, say in a city adventure, hour/lvl buffs or even 10min/lvl buffs can be highly useful).
The wizard getting a wizard cohort is mostly only getting more of the same (spells). The non-caster getting a caster as a cohort has a much steeper marginal gain.
Caster getting non-caster npc cohort will not be able to make as much use as long as he does not take that cohort on his adventures. Otherwise, in adventures those can serve as good bodyguards (similar to an animal companion, which is of course weaker than, say, a npc fighter or rogue cohort of the pc level).



Let's set aside the fact that this is as atypical a character you can get and obviously not how the game is "meant" to be. Let's forget about wealth-by-level limitations, about , about filling a role in a party. Let's not even discuss the fact that apparently, to be effective, a Monk HAS to fit one specific, counterintuitive build (max out UMD) AND a specific, broken spell (Polymorph) and what that says about the class.

Facts:
- wbl is part of the game, it is explicitly stated in the DMG as part of balance
- counterintuitive it may be to you, or rather: simply new. No need to go through the roof because someone suggests getting UMD to get good personal range buffs for non-casters up to AMF or even shapechange
- polymorph is only one of many, many things a UMD monk (or non-caster class) has in his synergy arsenal. Others are enlarge, blink, fly, haste, divine power, righteous might (better than most morphs), AMF etc.



Instead, let's ask this question: Have you EVER, even ONCE, played a monk like that? Really? Do you think that if you tried, you wouldn't have any problems, either in-game (surviving without Polymorph) or from other players (for running away or choking/blinding them with the smoke bottle) or the DM?

No, I NEVER played a monk like that in an actual campaign, only in duels. This is not the point when objective, core rules class balance is the issue.
I never play characters maxed to the fullest of their power potential, since it is extremely difficult to play that roleplayingwise. Have you ever played a wizard from lvls 1-20 with all of the combos you suggested? Have you repeatedly won encounters single-handedly with the same spells time and again without wondering why?
The eversmoking bottle (or other smoke or concealment tactics) has come up in regular gameplay and saved the day when it was used by a rogue a fellow player once played (that was in an ambush by some tough bandits. Otherwise, he had used it several times to sneak into a strongly guarded fortress to quickly steal a particular item, on another occasion he helped the strong Fort-save characters in the group to quickly overcome the ogre guard of a tower on a bridge the group needed to cross).

- Giacomo

*EDIT: just noticed that the difference between candle and gate scroll cost is only marginal which means the only strange thing remaining is why an item which gives access to the spell to all classes (and with some other minor effect) should cost less than the scroll.
** EDIT II: It may be interesting for readers here to know that Reel On, Love once built for a duel an 11th level druid intended also to be useful in overall adventuring with dump stats of STR 7 and DEX 10. Great, eh? Until wildshape kicks in reliably often, those weak phyiscal stats are like a millstone around the neck of the group. So basically he did himself what he says I allegedly do for my monk suggestions (which btw is of course not true).

MeklorIlavator
2007-12-28, 05:03 PM
See my point is, you cant prepare for everything and most of the posts inf avour of the wizard seemed to wholly ignore the monks strong points. The monk honestly is one of the most survivable classes int he game espcialy when your oponent is trying to hit you with magic. Litteraly 50% of the Wizards spells will fail to work and the ones that do go throuh have to deal witht he best Save scheme in the game for base classes.

Bwaa? 50% will fail? Only if the wizard is doing some remarkable silly things, like deciding to fail 50% of their caster level checks. At level 20 a Monks SR is 30. A competent wizard will have a caster level increase via the ion stone and either the spell penetration feats, the spell assay resistance spell(+ 10 to caster level checks and the like) and the like, or the feat Arcane Mastery(take 10 on caster level checks). The spell alone means that the Wizard can't fail to beat the monks Sr. Plus, they could always cast one of the many spells that don't allow Sr. And in regards to saves, the base save for a level one spell at level 20(assuming 34-36 int, which is very easy) will be 22-23. Sure, a monk can easily make that, but remember that that is both a level one spell, so the monk is more likely going to see 27-28 and up(6th level and up), and he needs to increase two stats in order to do this(reflex doesn't matter much normally, and he has improved evasion). Plus, the wizard has a couple of ways to increase the Dc's of spells through feats, and could always go for no save spells. Most of the strategies that ignore the strong points of the monk do so because the wizards have spells that ignore those same strong points.


My argument has nothing to do with stuff like UMD and using AMF or such. Simply looking at the monks mobilities its saves its ability to hit and run and the fact that the monk has at least one Save or die effect and a number of might as well be dead (stunned) effects.

Sure, it has them. But can the monk hit the wizard? Maybe, depending on the individual spells prepared. Most of the Wizards are built in such a way that the monk doesn't get an attack on them, so having these great abilities that require attacks to activate is less than useful.



It is theoretically int hw ziards favour but no matter how mucht he wizard prepares it isnt a set thing. .

I also find the attack on what is honestly a really fun class to play agravating. Ive played the game for 20 years now and Ive never encountered anyone in Rl that Plays with the attitudes expressed on these and the wizard forums towards the classes. So it admitedly grates on my nerves a fair bith.
The problem here is that this isn't about how fun class X is to play, but how effective that class is when its put to the test. I personally laugh at these sorts of threads because I've read a couple and I know the general parameters of the arguments, and I know the eventual outcome. Some classes are sub par in terms of mechanics, and the monk is one of them. Heck, I like to play warlocks, and there pretty far down there in the power rankings, too. Remember, most people wouldn't play a build like this(outside of special circumstances, such as a dual between one of the proposed monk and wizard builds), but because the discussion is purely about the mechanical effectiveness of the build, the posters focus only on the mechanical.

Sir Giacomo
2007-12-28, 05:27 PM
Some good points by MeklorIlavator here.
SR truly outside core can get overcome rather easily. In core, the wizard can boost his Spell level check so that the same level monk's SR will only stop almost a third of the incoming spells that allow SR.
Not that shabby, but not reliable defense for the monk, true. Against lower level casters and monsters with spell ability it is quite good, though.


...Most of the strategies that ignore the strong points of the monk do so because the wizards have spells that ignore those same strong points.

Which is why UMD and AMF is key for amonk built for overcoming casters at high levels. You can also build a more combat-oriented monk (depends on the campaign) who will still be the best of all non-caster classes vs casters, but with much less chance of survival vs the strongest casters.


Sure, it has them. But can the monk hit the wizard? Maybe, depending on the individual spells prepared. Most of the Wizards are built in such a way that the monk doesn't get an attack on them, so having these great abilities that require attacks to activate is less than useful.

UMD/AMF/Grapple combo is quite good, but certainly not a safe way to win. At those high levels, nothing is. At lower levels, the wizard has more and more difficult to prepare for all contingencies.


The problem here is that this isn't about how fun class X is to play, but how effective that class is when its put to the test. I personally laugh at these sorts of threads because I've read a couple and I know the general parameters of the arguments, and I know the eventual outcome. Some classes are sub par in terms of mechanics, and the monk is one of them. Heck, I like to play warlocks, and there pretty far down there in the power rankings, too. Remember, most people wouldn't play a build like this(outside of special circumstances, such as a dual between one of the proposed monk and wizard builds), but because the discussion is purely about the mechanical effectiveness of the build, the posters focus only on the mechanical.

Well, here I disagree.
If you have already made up your mind, no discussion thread will be of use to you.
Actual gameplay and duels are highly different, and the former can also include some flavour arguments for balance discussions. You see, if a class is forced to spend all its time in a non-dimensional (or extra-dimensional) pocket for survival, only occasionally emerging for dragon hoard hunting, that may be a mechanically strong class - but not much fun to play for all.

- Giacomo

PirateMonk
2007-12-28, 05:29 PM
Mass delusion does not truth make :smallbiggrin:

Under some circumstances, it can. If almost everyone plays the game and interprets the rules in such a way that the system breaks down, and decide that alternative interpretations make no sense, the game needs to be fixed.

Fawsto
2007-12-28, 05:49 PM
For some reason we can't deny that a fighter with (somehow) maxed UMD can become a problem... I am sure that we have a few spells out there we can put inside a wand that require a touch attack that in the hands of a meleer would mostly hit all the times... Poor Monk, sadly, has Cleric BAB... That's stupid... The only thing that helps him is that he won't be spending most of his money on weapons and armors, so a Monk has rather more money to buy diferent magic items like wands and scrolls.

Btw... I guess if there are enought skillpoints out there why not to get a extra class skill? It gives you more adaptability.

Back to the Monk...

The obvious thing here is this: The people who thinks that the Monk can kill a Wizard relly o the fact that all Monk saves are good and he has stuff like evasion and can cure himself to a moderate extent. Well, if the Monk can catch a Wizard absolutly umprepared for the fight, he may win the battle, assuming he can reach the wizard, make him botch a few spells and full attack him to oblivion... The problem is that most smart wizards are always, somehow, prepared, and they don't only relly on SoSs or SoDs to win a fight. Am I totaly wrong?

Back to UMD and being usefull on higher levels...

UMD can be helpfull in the hands of any class. A fighter could get a wand of cure light/moderate wounds and use it during a combat if the cleric has fallen or is too distant to be helpful. A Monk with this wand could also be a excelent suporter, being able to help flanking someone and running as fast as possible to cure a fallen ally.

Besides rebalancing something here and there and banning a few broken spells and metamagic options, the Meleers (sometimes even the barbarian) can rely on smart fighting. The clever usage of combat manouvers (I am not meaning any manouvers from ToB, but the options given to everybody in PHI) is a key to battlefield success. Also carrying the right equipment can get you out of trouble if your DM makes any sense. For example Tower Shields. Well +4 Shield bonus to AC and a -2 penalty to attack rolls... Hmm... People tend to prefer the good old +2 AC shields. But a tower shield can save your life. The shield can grant you total cover, so lets say you have a Fire Resistant Tower Shield and a Red Dragon is upon to cast his breath on you? The shield can protect you almost entirely if you hide behind it. Since it is fire resistant it wont be destroyed either.

A good option now for the Monk: Monks can use slings, right? There are plenty good mundane but rather interesting ammo out there. Have you considered shooting Thunderstones? You still get the damage since Thunderstones are indeed... stones, plus the effects off they alchemical properties. Talking about alchemy, Alchemist's Fire. It can reach much further when shot from a sling (the flask is NOT too big), and the continuous damage can, at least in the lower levels make a hard time for the casters if you hit true. Tanglefoot Bags are proven to be efficient too, like acid flasks or Holy Water for the pesky Lich. Poisoned calltrops can be also used to hamper a mage that is not flying but has to get near to hit with a touch spell.

All this can be useful during mid levels... After lvl 15 I guess there isn't much a non caster can do to fight toe to toe with a prepared mage by the current rules...

I hope I could make any sense... I foun on this a oportunity to state a few things beyond Monk Vs. Wizard, since I feel that the subject has been trough and torought.

Sir Giacomo
2007-12-28, 08:36 PM
Just noticed I have forgotten Armads...how could I :smallsmile:
So some more comments before I leave for New Year holidays...


Survival's rather easy for wizards at level 3 (rope trick, alter self into flying stuff). After that, it only gets easier (until level 17+, where they sit in towers, teleport around and kill dragons for fun).

Rope trick? 3 hours at its outset - hardly enough for resting a night safely. Alter self? Lose your own racial abilities for 10min/lvl other humanoid stuff (and I do not know whether there are any flying humanoids in core rules).
As for the rest:
- Sitting in towers does not gain XP.
- teleporting is good, but does not win battles
- killing dragons for fun? Yes, with an unchallenging DM maybe.


Except that they easily use the scrolls without doing anything other than making a caster level check? And they actually get spells themselves, and can research themselves, AND DONT DEPEND ON ANOTHER CLASS to defeat challenges of their CR?

Oh, they do depend on another class. It is called wizard for their new spells in excess of the 2/level - either bought or gained from scrolls.
Sorcerers are the only caster class (well, apart from the bard) gaining their spells without outside help. And this is balanced by their slowest spell progression and most limited spell availability (again, apart from the bard).
Ah, and both classes depend on the rest of the group for sheer survival until around mid-levels.


Gate doesn't get you killed by the RAW. RAW says "outsiders may come back and try to sabotage/kill you". It doesn't say "Outsiders WILL come back and try to kill you". It's not considered less cheesy than Polymorph. The reason why Gate's used in this discussion is because you stick to using Polymorph, which is a broken spell (fight cheese with cheese!).

See above what I already posted to Reel on, Love. Show me pls where I said that "outsiders WILL come back and try to kill you." I only talked about a risk which until recently you said did not even exist. But thanks for accepting that (albeit in a hidden way)!


UMD isn't a monk class ability. It's not even a class skill for monks. It's going to be quite hard to make your UMD checks, since you don't have it as a class skill.

Yes, it's going to be hard. But it is doable in the high levels that matter. Your point being?



So? This is a RAW discussion. "DM won't let you do this, DM won't let you do that" doesn't apply here.

There is nothing in the RAW to suggest that you can get a certain longer-term service for a certain price through gate. So you have to check with the DM since the whole alternative use of gate involves such a wide array of possibilities as to make it impossible to nail down with any hard rules. So, it is entirely up to the DM who designed the npc called creature in the first place.


AMF has 10ft radius. I don't think the wizard's going to stone around within 10ft of the monk, is he? Anyway, Sculpted AMF beats the monk easily.

Which is why the monk will activate the AMF only when he can catch the wizard without the wizard being able to respond before he reaches him.
Sculpted AMF is better than normal AMF but does not help at all vs an AMF monk.


Your AMF isn't continuously up. So the wizard disjunctions you while it's not up.

Yes, he could do that. Likely the monk has no spell turning effect up (which would be quite devastating for the wizard). Likely also some of the monk items will get non-magical (the monk has a high will save, after all!). However in any case, because the disjunction did nothing lethal to the monk, the monk reaches the wizard. So it is not always such a good tactical idea to use that spell instead of other spells.


No big advantage? You move 5ft per round.

If you refer to solid fog, that bars the spellcaste from targeting the monk. That, plus he will not be able to see whether the monk is still there at all (or has excaped via dimdoor/item/etheralness).


Belt of battle? Whatever happened to "non core"? Maw of Chaos deals 1d6/level damage, no save, then forces a will save to avoid being dazed for 1 round.

Ah, you see, once someone mentions a non-core spell like maw of chaos I take the liberty to provide the hypthetical monk with a non-core item.


DISJUNCTION. WHEE

see above.


That's the idea. Cast orbs of acid and fling them in.

If AMF is mistakingly up, monk finishes AMF and retreats. The orbs are easily survived until the escape is accomplished. And...ah, aren't they non-core?:smallsmile:


Has it been errata'ed? Or is this your "interpretation". "Oh, it's bad for the monk, so I'll Interpret it in another way, even though it's baseless!

It's not baseless, as I outlined above. Additionally, there are so many countertactics to the telekinetic sphere at those levels (rod of cancellation, dimdoor, long pole to prevent encasing of sphere, etc.)


You have one? If you have 1, the wizard teleports away, picks up his rod of absorption, filled to 50 spell levels, so he NEVER needs to expend his spell slots, beyond the 7th level greater teleport he used (or the Greater Teleport SLA)

Yes, he can load on more spells that will not help vs AMF.


But you were hugely advantaged at the start, weren't you? So from an 'advantageous' position to a draw, hasn't the monk failed?

Hugely advantaged at the start? In what scenario? Of the ironic OP where a wizard would not even be able to catch the monk in the sphere because he could not pinpoint him? Nope.
What I meant to say is: wizard casts force barrier and encases monk. Even if the monk cannot do anything about it, the barrier is two-way. So it's an impasse which will be over after a while. It then depends on the readied actions or what buffs the wizard did in between. The monk COULD still escape then.



Btw, the challenge ends up in a draw, because due to RAW, nobody is restricted by death. So even if the monk dies, he still can do his monk thing. Same goes for the wizard.

? Is this some odd rules interpretation like the one that you cannot drown?Funny, but useless for this discussion.

- Giacomo

Armads
2007-12-28, 09:14 PM
Which is why the monk will activate the AMF only when he can catch the wizard without the wizard being able to respond before he reaches him.
Sculpted AMF is better than normal AMF but does not help at all vs an AMF monk.

ORLY? A wizard has an AMF sculpted to be around him, but not in his space. Then he flies, say, 120.1ft off to ground. Casts Invisibility (or something, he has so many spell slots).

Okay, your monk can see him via true seeing (WIZARD MOOCH FTW (or does true seeing have a range of 120ft?)), or via See Invisibility. But once you activate your own AMF, you can't see him anymore due to the fact you lose your own buffs, and you can't close on him due to your lack of flight. You cannot reach the wizard because of the wizard's own AMF surrounding him. You can't even hit him with ranged weapons because you probably won't be taking Weapon Proficiency feats and even if you did take 1, he's out of Composite Longbow range, so you take a -2 penalty to your attack (and he has full AC against the arrows). You also probably can't see him if he gets concealment and makes a mundane hide check (since you have a -12 to spot from him being 120ft off the ground). And when you finally finish pelting him with arrows, you'll realise you killed his astral projection/clone or whatever (simulcralum - how do you spell it?).



- Sitting in towers does not gain XP.
- teleporting is good, but does not win battles
- killing dragons for fun? Yes, with an unchallenging DM maybe.

Well, you sit in towers and kill adventurers who come to your tower, or you teleport out, slay a random dragon/outsider/monster you get XP from, and then teleport back in and sit in your tower.



Oh, they do depend on another class. It is called wizard for their new spells in excess of the 2/level - either bought or gained from scrolls.
Sorcerers are the only caster class (well, apart from the bard) gaining their spells without outside help. And this is balanced by their slowest spell progression and most limited spell availability (again, apart from the bard).
Ah, and both classes depend on the rest of the group for sheer survival until around mid-levels.

They can research their spells.



Rope trick? 3 hours at its outset - hardly enough for resting a night safely. Alter self? Lose your own racial abilities for 10min/lvl other humanoid stuff (and I do not know whether there are any flying humanoids in core rules).

3 hours of safety's better than 0 hours of safety, isn't it? Also, if he's an elf, then he's only vulnerable for 1 hour. And when he reaches level 5, he can extend it for 10 hours of safety, which is enough. Or he could wait to level 9 to cast it normally.



Yes, it's going to be hard. But it is doable in the high levels that matter. Your point being?

Really? You have 11 ranks in it by level 20. The DC to use a 9th level spell scroll is 37. Assuming you have a +5 cha mod, +4 synergy, +3 circlet of persuasion, and take Magical Aptitude and Skill Focus, that's +28. After spending 1 item slot, 2 feats, and lots of skill points, as well as RAISING CHARISMA, you still can't automatically cast 9th level spells. You have a 45% chance of failure, which is more than a wizard's 0% chance of failure. You also can get interrupted by random people who decide to attack when you're reading stuff from scrolls.



Yes, he could do that. Likely the monk has no spell turning effect up (which would be quite devastating for the wizard). Likely also some of the monk items will get non-magical (the monk has a high will save, after all!). However in any case, because the disjunction did nothing lethal to the monk, the monk reaches the wizard. So it is not always such a good tactical idea to use that spell instead of other spells.

And how are you going to get Spell Turning + AMF? Rings of Major Spell Storing cost 200k.



See above what I already posted to Reel on, Love. Show me pls where I said that "outsiders WILL come back and try to kill you." I only talked about a risk which until recently you said did not even exist. But thanks for accepting that (albeit in a hidden way)!

I don't know, maybe you said somewhere before that if you gate in a Solar to defend a City of Lawful Goodness from evil, it'll still be pissed at you since it'll be on a mission of greater importance? Even though you'll getting it to do what is normal for it (fight evil)?

Indon
2007-12-29, 03:58 AM
I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not...

I'm not being sarcastic. I'm being silly. Because after all, silliness is what this thread is very much about.

While being silly, I may or may not have realized that my intentional strawmanning of The Forum Wizard, this character who is viewed as being reasonably optimized, and that to do worse is to intentionally build him poorly, has no significant differences from the actual thing.

So perhaps I came to a sudden epiphany about the patent absurdity of D&D forum balance debates in general, and resolved from now on to have fun with it.

Superglucose
2008-01-17, 10:47 PM
Um, er, 1 wizard v 1 monk, monk wins initiative and is close to wizard, initiates a grapple check. If the grapple succeeds, GG. Else, the monk needs to save and try again. Rinse/repeat :smallbiggrin:

Now if the wizard is bound and gagged, 1 wizard verus 1 monk. The monk coup de graces. Once. Maybe, MAYBE twice :smallwink:

Theli
2008-01-17, 11:03 PM
But...don't you know? All level 1 wizards specialize in grapple!

Anyway, this isn't quite thread necromancy...but it's close enough. Good job!

*dances all over this still living, but beaten down, thread*

Reel On, Love
2008-01-17, 11:10 PM
Um, er, 1 wizard v 1 monk, monk wins initiative and is close to wizard, initiates a grapple check. If the grapple succeeds, GG. Else, the monk needs to save and try again. Rinse/repeat :smallbiggrin:

I'm guessing you're not familiar with Freedom of Movement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#freedomofMovement).

Theli
2008-01-17, 11:25 PM
Eh, 1st level...4th level spell...

I'm sure Boccob, in all his might, would be personally willing to come down to the material plane and hand the measly wizard this vital ring. So yeah, sorry dude. But there's not much you can do against expected divine intervention like this...

Reel On, Love
2008-01-17, 11:47 PM
Eh, 1st level...4th level spell...

I'm sure Boccob, in all his might, would be personally willing to come down to the material plane and hand the measly wizard this vital ring. So yeah, sorry dude. But there's not much you can do against expected divine intervention like this...

Who said anything about first level?

Theli
2008-01-17, 11:59 PM
Superglucose, the almost thread necromancer.

You quoted him yourself...


Edit: Heh, ok...maybe he was referring to QUANTITY of monks and wizards. *shrugs* Don't see why he'd have to.

Graymayre
2008-09-01, 12:54 PM
What if the wizard used a divination spell to know he would be trapped like this? and thus prepare the right spells?

Akimbo
2008-09-01, 01:05 PM
Oh sweet Vecna! The Necromancy!

Roland St. Jude
2008-09-01, 02:49 PM
Sheriff of Moddingham: Thread necromancy = bad.