Balancing the sorcerer

[Admiral Squish]

I want to play a sorcerer. Crazy, I know, but I think I can convince my DM to let me modify the class and make it more balanced. Now, my problem is, I'm not sure of how to do this. I have a few ideas, but nothing concrete. Does anyone have the 'magic formula' for this? Any clever tricks to make this simple?

I do have a few ideas, though. Would giving the wizard feats to the sorcerer and upping the spells known by about 50% be pretty even?

[Fenix_of_Doom]

I want to play a sorcerer. Crazy, I know, but I think I can convince my DM to let me modify the class and make it more balanced. Now, my problem is, I'm not sure of how to do this. I have a few ideas, but nothing concrete. Does anyone have the 'magic formula' for this? Any clever tricks to make this simple?

I do have a few ideas, though. Would giving the wizard feats to the sorcerer and upping the spells known by about 50% be pretty even?

The sorcerer is the 4th strongest class in the PHB, do you really want to make him any stronger?

[Admiral Squish]

Everyone says he's sub-par to the wizard, so I figured it would be the smart thing to do to make him come up even.

[Saph]

What level are you playing at?

Sorcerers are weak-sauce at levels 1-3, average at levels 4-5, good around levels 6 to 9, overpowered from about level 10 upwards, and outrageously powerful once they hit level 14 or so.

If you're playing at levels 1-5, powering up the sorcerer will be fine, but understand that spellcasters get exponentially stronger as they go up in levels. By the time you're level 10, your DM will probably be regretting agreeing to those modifications.

- Saph

[Fenix_of_Doom]

Everyone says he's sub-par to the wizard, so I figured it would be the smart thing to do to make him come up even.

That would be a good idea if it wasn't for the fact that 99% of all base classes are sub-par with the wizard, so unless your party is made up of druids, clerics, archivists, beguilers and artificers it's not really necessary.

[Zocelot]

I DM and instead of powering down the wizard, I just let my players suggest slight modifications to race and class that will make their character as powerful as a human/elven wizard.

The best solution I've seen so far is to give the sorcerer light armour proficiency and no spell failure chance. It's extremely useful at low levels, but as the sorcerer gets more powerful it lessens in powerful. It still never is useless though.

[Crow]

The Sorcerer is just as powerful and versatile as the Wizard, but powerful and versatile in a different way.

[RandomFellow]

My two cents on making a Sorcerer on par with a Wizard:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3622481&postcount=36

The Sorcerer doesn't need as much as your thinking to be 'on par' with a Wizard. Just 3-4 feats, a slightly better skill selection, and the Metamagic Specialist variant from PHBII.

[Theli]

Variants that give you something great in exchange for something lousy are GREAT.

Damn, WoTC! You guys are brilliant!

[Solo]

Free Eschew Materials feat at level one, Metamagic Specialist, and a few free feats/bloodline feats or something later on. That should help.

[Stam]

Free Eschew Materials feat at level one, Metamagic Specialist, and a few free feats/bloodline feats or something later on. That should help.
Pretty much. Give them a set bonus magic-style feat at 1st-level (Eschew Materials as per Solo, or maybe Heighten Spell), and then a choice of a Draconic/Metamagic/Bloodline feat every five levels thereafter.

Oh. And more class skills. Like, all the good Cha-based ones. Maybe even 4+Int points per level.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

What I did was made the PhB II variant Sorcerer standard (replaces familiar with Spontanious Metamagic), then gave Eschew Materials as a free bonus feat at level 1.

[Rachel Lorelei]

The Sorcerer is just as powerful and versatile as the Wizard, but powerful and versatile in a different way.

No, no--he really is less powerful and versatile (in a different way).

[Fawsto]

PH2... Have fun.

[marjan]

The only thing that makes sorceror less powerful then wizard is number of spells known. So giving him option to choose one domain from UA domain wizard and leting him add those spells to his list of known spells could help there. Eschew Materials is also nice as free bonus feat and it makes a lot of sense but it doesn't make him more powerful.

[sikyon]

The only thing that makes sorceror less powerful then wizard is number of spells known. So giving him option to choose one domain from UA domain wizard and leting him add those spells to his list of known spells could help there. Eschew Materials is also nice as free bonus feat and it makes a lot of sense but it doesn't make him more powerful.

Also slower spell level progression, as spells get exponetially more powerful.

[marjan]

Also slower spell level progression, as spells get exponetially more powerful.

Oh, yeah. I allways forget about that. Anyway this should help a bit at least.

[Admiral Squish]

So give them wizard spell progression, give them a few more spells known, and toss in some free metamagic. So far, sounds pretty fun.

[Saph]

So give them wizard spell progression, give them a few more spells known, and toss in some free metamagic. So far, sounds pretty fun.

If you want them to be more powerful than 95% of the classes in the game, yes. Seriously, sorcerers are not weak, not unless you're playing at level 5 or below. If you expect the game to run long, then you're going to have to give even more boosts and buffs to every other class for them to keep up.

- Saph

[RandomFellow]

If you want them to be more powerful than 95% of the classes in the game, yes. Seriously, sorcerers are not weak, not unless you're playing at level 5 or below. If you expect the game to run long, then you're going to have to give even more boosts and buffs to every other class for them to keep up.

- Saph
Using that logic you still need to boost 95% of the classes anyway since 5% is still more powerful.

[Admiral Squish]

So, wait. If the sorcerer has a good power level compared to the rest, shouldn't I just try to get the wizard nerfed/banned?

[Solo]

So, wait. If the sorcerer has a good power level compared to the rest, shouldn't I just try to get the wizard nerfed/banned?

Just leave the system be and try to avoid playing broken classes in a broken way.

If you play a wizard with some self control, and don't powergame your way through your DnD session, everything will go fine.

Just because you can bring a magical Apocalypse down on your enemies doesn't mean you have to.

[Spiryt]

So, wait. If the sorcerer has a good power level compared to the rest, shouldn't I just try to get the wizard nerfed/banned?

Good luck. There were maaaany atempts, but it's rather hard to do. To many spells are overpowered.

[Stam]

Just leave the system be and try to avoid playing broken classes in a broken way.

Sigged! :smallbiggrin:

[CASTLEMIKE]

Marjan had a lot of good points.

Without PRCs consider using the "Spellcaster" variant for your sorcerer or a Beguiler with an Arcane Discipline.

Playing a Kobold and taking the ritual to get standard sorcerer spellcasting a level earlier than normal like a specialist specialist wizard could be interesting.

[Yami]

Me? I prestiege out of the class as soon as possible.

Don't get me wrong, I love the sorcerer. It's just the class gives you nothing but familiar advancement, and I variant that out anyways.

Incantatrix is my favorite, but some have problems with it. But then, I apearantly managed to play a wizard in such a way as to be first to drop last session, so huzzah for not powergaming. *Gumble Gumble* (stupid ambushes.)

So, for my magic formula;
Throw away the familiar and grab 'metamagic feats don't increase casting time.'
Grab a metamagic feat or two that amuse you.
Don't die for a few levels
Proceed to enjoy yourself

You could go battle sorcerer variant, but at that point I'd choose to go duskblade.

[Solo]

Good PrCs for the sorcerer are Mago of the Arcane Order, Fatespinner, Archmage, and Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil.

[Admiral Squish]

I never really played a spell caster before, but I like the idea of a familiar, and metamagic feats don't really sound worth it. I can understand still and silent spell, but the rest? Notsomuch. I'm looking into The recaster prestige class to fill up those requirements.

[Wordmiser]

I never really played a spell caster before, but I like the idea of a familiar, and metamagic feats don't really sound worth it. I can understand still and silent spell, but the rest? Notsomuch. I'm looking into The recaster prestige class to fill up those requirements. What level are we talking about? If it's 9th or beyond, just take the Rapid Metamagic feat.

And a couple of Metamagic feats--Heighten Spell and Quicken Spell (possibly Chain Spell as well)--are definitely worth taking. Unquestionably.

Heighten Spell keeps your low-level spells effective throughout your career and Quicken Spell gives you more actions (and actions are by far the most important resource in the game).

[Admiral Squish]

Somewhere between one and five. Starting campaign, growing the character from the beginning and working up.

[Solo]

I never really played a spell caster before, but I like the idea of a familiar, and metamagic feats don't really sound worth it. I can understand still and silent spell, but the rest? Notsomuch. I'm looking into The recaster prestige class to fill up those requirements.

Come, read the Gospel of The Logic Ninja and be enlightened. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18500&highlight=batman)

[Wordmiser]

Come, read the Gospel of The Logic Ninja and be enlightened.Tag-along link:
Dictum Mortuum's Wizard's Handbook (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=881457) [This one's up-to-date, well organized, readable and mostly relevant for Sorcerers. Slightly less entertaining, though.]

[Riffington]

Somewhere between one and five. Starting campaign, growing the character from the beginning and working up.

At those levels, Sorceror is probably more powerful than Wizard. The ability to use a longspear and crossbow is a nice backup at those levels. And you are always useful, whereas the wizard is only sometimes useful.

A wizard is only awesome if he gets lots of advance preparation and picks the exact right spells - (and gets to sleep properly and tote his valuable spellbook along and all those things that are hard to do on the road).
You can kidnap the sorceror from his bathroom, and he still has a full spell complement. And if even one of his spells is useful, he can use that spell over and over.

In short: at best, Wizard is the most powerful class, but at worst he is the weakest. A sorceror is always near the top.

[Reinboom]

if he gets lots of advance preparation.

Although, generally correct with everything else, I'm going to nitpick at this statement slightly in reminding people that, a wizard doesn't have to prepare all their spells at the beginning of the day and can fill the slots up during the day as they replace used spells.


Aside - how I handle the sorcerer:
highly suggest the PHB2 variant.
Give 1 extra spell known per spell level.
Give Eschew Materials.

It still doesn't fix the issue with the sorcerer that is "there is absolutely NO reason to stay sorcerer" - but - this gives Sorcerer versatility.
They still become degenerate after level 10, though. :smallfrown:

[Kizara]

Sorcerer:
-Pick 1 martial weapon, you are proficient with that weapon.
-You may change a spell known at every new level, the spell changed may be of any level you can cast.
-Gain +1 spell known per spell level.
-Gain Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, and Knowledge (the planes) as class skills.
-You may replace a current spell known for another every time you level up, and this spell may be of any level.


That's what I did.

[Reinboom]

Sorcerer:
-Gain Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, and Knowledge (the planes) as class skills.
That's what I did.

Ah, thanks, I didn't do the Gather Information or Knowledge (the planes) (though I think I shall add know: planes now...), but I did up the sorcerer to 4+int skills and add diplomacy and intimidate.
The 4+ int gives roleplaying room. So a sorcerer can be the not-so-bright or "just average" charismatic face (int 8 or 10, and still be able to do something with its class skills).

For the spell retraining, I use the PHB2 retraining rules which allow 2 spell switch outs per level.

[#Raptor]

Dwarf sorcerers ain't bad.

... With the racial substitution level 9 from RoS pg 147, that lets you add your con bonus to cha to determine bonus spells, all for the cost of 1 known lvl 4 spell. :smallamused:

Now thats one tough sorcerer that can cast ALOT of spells.


Be a gold dwarf (dmg pg 171) for added kicks.