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Thinker
2007-12-25, 12:19 PM
Using only NPC base classes and any PrCs, feats, templates, or races, how many ECL 12 characters would it take to defeat a Mummy Lord (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/mummy.htm)?
Requirements:


Use any WoTC released materials, but please cite less frequently heard of material.
The following are considered NPC base classes for the purposes of this challenge: Adept (DMG), Religious Adept (Eb), Urban Adept (Sharn), Aristocrat (DMG), Commoner (DMG), Expert (DMG), Magewright (Eb), Warrior (DMG).
A minimum of 5 levels must be taken in NPC classes before PrCing out and no normal base classes may be used at all.
Ur-Priest and other PrCs that have their own casting progression and spell list are banned outright as they would violate the spirit of the challenge.
No infinite loop, or anything of its like.
No more than the character's HD in pre-commanded creatures.
Assume the Mummy Lord is typical of its kind, having all the normal spells prepared and gear associated with it.
Assume 88,000 gp starting wealth for the character.
Assume no character can take Use Magic Device, unless it appears on its class-skill list.
The fight is an arena match taking place in an arena with the following dimensions: square shaped arena with sides 1000 feet long and impenetrable, the ceiling is 500 feet high and likewise indestructible. Opponents start at opposite ends, 1000 feet away. There is no buff time, but any time it takes for the opponents to get to each other may be used to buff. Any buffs that last 1 hour/level or greater may be assumed to already be on the characters. Teleportation effects work within the arena, but cannot be used to leave it.


Please read the requirements carefully before submitting.

Kaelik
2007-12-25, 02:11 PM
First. Is Magewright an Arcane caster?

Second.

Expert 1/Adept 2 /Magewright 2 (with Practiced Spell caster)/Mindbender 1/Magewright 2/Incantatrix 1/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 3.

Or Expert 1/Adept 4/Divine Oracle 5/Contemplative 2

Spend all money on UMD scrolls of kickass spells. Spellcasting and domains are just bonus.

Have self and Raven familiar buffed with awesome hour per level spells. Then both use Rods that contain Searing light. UMDed to insane caster level. Kill Mummy Lord.

EDITED: First build revised and specified.

Thinker
2007-12-25, 02:48 PM
Magewright is an arcane caster, but does not get a familiar. Nice work. Any other entries?

RandomFellow
2007-12-25, 03:18 PM
Aristocrat 12
Leadership (+Leadership Enhancing Feats such as Improved Cohort)
Cleric 11 with Improved Turning, Quicken Turning, and Disciple of the Sun Feat

Instant Victory.

Human Expert 12 (with UMD as one of the class-skills)
15 Ranks+Skill Focus+Magical Aptitude = +20
Wand of Fly (x2) + Offensive Wands + Wand of Dispel Magic (x2)

Attilargh
2007-12-25, 03:30 PM
Second-level old half-elf Aristocrat with maxed-out Diplomacy. Spend two minutes chatting with the Mummy Lord. Win by submission.

Wait, you mean an ELC 12 challenge? Sorry, my bad. Spend two full-round actions chatting with the Mummy Lord. Win by submission.

Armads
2007-12-25, 09:23 PM
Umm, aren't undead immune to mind affecting effects (so diplomacy doesn't work)?


Magewright is an arcane caster, but does not get a familiar. Nice work. Any other entries?

Adept 2 gets Summon Familiar.

Kaelik
2007-12-25, 10:07 PM
Adept 2 gets Summon Familiar.

He knows, it just changed my build to fewer levels of Magewright and a 2 level Adept build.

Thinker
2007-12-26, 01:27 AM
Umm, aren't undead immune to mind affecting effects (so diplomacy doesn't work)?



Adept 2 gets Summon Familiar.

I would tend to agree with you about that one. The leadership build works as well because I had forgotten to add that to the requirements.

Attilargh
2007-12-26, 03:44 AM
Umm, aren't undead immune to mind affecting effects (so diplomacy doesn't work)?
When did diplomacy become a charm, compulsion, phantasm, pattern, or morale effect? :smallconfused:

Eh, screw the rules, I've got money. :smalltongue: Money which is spent on a, hmm, Crystal Ball with Telepathy that is then used to contact a deity, a dragon or another appropriate helper that is capable of coming to the Diplomancer's rescue at a moment's notice and vulnerable to mind-affecting effects.

Indon
2007-12-26, 05:01 PM
UMDed to insane caster level.

What class feature allows you to use a wand at more than the minimum caster level?

Kaelik
2007-12-26, 05:27 PM
What class feature allows you to use a wand at more than the minimum caster level?

That's why I said Rod or Staff. You know, those things that use the CL of the caster, or can be UMDed to CL above 20 by UMD builds.

Indon
2007-12-26, 05:34 PM
That's why I said Rod or Staff. You know, those things that use the CL of the caster, or can be UMDed to CL above 20 by UMD builds.

I'm pretty sure that's not how UMD works.

The UMD ability specifies that it doesn't give you the class features of a class being emulated; it just lets you use items as if the class feature existed. I.E. You can use a class feature (staff activation) as if you were a level 8 caster (the lowest possible CL a staff can have, which thus dictates the DC).

Edit: My bad, I forgot staves have CL's which would dictate the DC and CL for the UMD check.

If your interpretation were correct, I could use a Druid's Vestment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#vestmentDruids) in order to turn into a Huge elemental for 20 hours, once a day.

Gralamin
2007-12-26, 07:47 PM
I'm pretty sure that's not how UMD works.

The UMD ability specifies that it doesn't give you the class features of a class being emulated; it just lets you use items as if the class feature existed. I.E. You can use a class feature (staff activation) as if you were a level 8 caster (the lowest possible CL a staff can have, which thus dictates the DC).

Edit: My bad, I forgot staves have CL's which would dictate the DC and CL for the UMD check.

If your interpretation were correct, I could use a Druid's Vestment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#vestmentDruids) in order to turn into a Huge elemental for 20 hours, once a day.


Emulate a Class Feature

Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20.
I believe this is where it comes from. You emulate a Wizard of a high Effective level (lets say 20), and therefore have a CL of 20. Now consider:


Staff Descriptions

Staffs use the wielder’s ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells. Unlike with other sorts of magic items, the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of a staff if it’s higher than the caster level of the staff.

So It works with Staffs.

I however, Have not seen any evidence for Rods.

WrstDmEvr
2007-12-26, 07:51 PM
I believe this is where it comes from. You emulate a Wizard of a high Effective level (lets say 20), and therefore have a CL of 20.

And where do you get a 20+ bonus to your UMD?

Gralamin
2007-12-26, 08:18 PM
And where do you get a 20+ bonus to your UMD?

Well we want a result of 30 (assuming using searing light) so lets say a target modifier of 20.

Lets take a build something like this Expert 11/Exemplar 1

Expert 11 = 14 ranks in UMD
Exemplar 1 allows him to take 10 on a UMD check
Exemplar 1 also gives a +4 bonus to a skill check, we will also choose UMD.
Exemplar also as UMD as a class skill, so theres another +1.
A Stone of Good Luck (luckstone) for 20,000 gp (+1)
Total 30 (As long as charisma is 10 or above. With the increases the minimum needed charisma is 7.)

68,000 gp left
Staffs cost 375 gp × the level of the highest-level spell × the level of the caster
So a Searing Light staff costs us 375×3×12[minimum caster l134evel to make a staff] or 13,500 gp.
That leaves us with 54,500 gp to spare.
A Item of UMD+20 costs 40,000 gp. That would leave us with 14,500 gp and change the total to 46+charisma

Kaelik
2007-12-26, 09:27 PM
But what I'd actually want to do is buy 2 staffs, just for fun, and a scroll of animal growth. Grow my familiar, hand him the other staff, he uses my ranks, and bam, double searing light at quite high caster levels. Also don't forget Skill Focus and magical aptitude, just because I can.

Thinker
2007-12-26, 10:08 PM
But what I'd actually want to do is buy 2 staffs, just for fun, and a scroll of animal growth. Grow my familiar, hand him the other staff, he uses my ranks, and bam, double searing light at quite high caster levels. Also don't forget Skill Focus and magical aptitude, just because I can.

Do you think another challenge would be more interesting if it barred UMD altogether, rather than effectively requiring 1 level of expert? I'd also bar Leadership and Diplomacy, though.

Kaelik
2007-12-26, 11:23 PM
Do you think another challenge would be more interesting if it barred UMD altogether, rather than effectively requiring 1 level of expert? I'd also bar Leadership and Diplomacy, though.

I think your challenge is already silly and a waste of time. I think barring the only options for power presented to NPCs would make it even more of a waste of time. It isn't a "challenge" when you remove all methods of creating powerful characters, or of customizing.

If all you want is:

"How many Warrior X/Fasterst Entry melee combat PrC Y/Slightly better melee combat PrC Z/Best combat PrC alpha would it take to beat this creature?" Then ask that.

If you want a real optimization challenge, then you present a CR 12-14 encounter and ask how many ECL 6-8 PCs it takes to beat it.

One person is going to say "Half Elf Bard Diplomancer, I am the WINZOR!" every time. And then everyone else can get on with making actual builds. (Note that in this case, Leadership can be used for broken things, but doesn't need to be.)

Thinker
2007-12-26, 11:29 PM
I think your challenge is already silly and a waste of time. I think barring the only options for power presented to NPCs would make it even more of a waste of time. It isn't a "challenge" when you remove all methods of creating powerful characters, or of customizing.

If all you want is:

"How many Warrior X/Fasterst Entry melee combat PrC Y/Slightly better melee combat PrC Z/Best combat PrC alpha would it take to beat this creature?" Then ask that.

If you want a real optimization challenge, then you present a CR 12-14 encounter and ask how many ECL 6-8 PCs it takes to beat it.

One person is going to say "Half Elf Bard Diplomancer, I am the WINZOR!" every time. And then everyone else can get on with making actual builds. (Note that in this case, Leadership can be used for broken things, but doesn't need to be.)

Most ECL 6 - 8 PCs versus CR 12 - 14 result in the same or very similar builds so I was looking for a different way to make one :smalltongue:

Kaelik
2007-12-26, 11:33 PM
Most ECL 6 - 8 PCs versus CR 12 - 14 result in the same or very similar builds so I was looking for a different way to make one :smalltongue:

And all NPC only builds/and no alternative casting progression PrCs, tell the characters to.

1) UMD
2) Leadership
3) Diplomancer

because the only other option is:

4) A crapload of warriors.

VeisuItaTyhjyys
2007-12-26, 11:42 PM
Half-Dragon (Brass) Whatever. Fire resistance, 6d8 per round fire damage from the breath weapon? Flight. Just survive until you're in range (go for a base monster with SR and good saves), and burn one down.
EDIT: Svirfneblin will work. Half Brass Dragon, Half Svirfneblin, whichever NPC class gives the best saves, level 6. Max out con with your point-buy. Win.

Kaelik
2007-12-27, 12:27 AM
Half-Dragon (Brass) Whatever. Fire resistance, 6d8 per round fire damage from the breath weapon? Flight. Just survive until you're in range (go for a base monster with SR and good saves), and burn one down.
EDIT: Svirfneblin will work. Half Brass Dragon, Half Svirfneblin, whichever NPC class gives the best saves, level 6. Max out con with your point-buy. Win.

You do know that Half-Dragons get their Breath weapon once a day right?

With 6HD they can take a feat that gives them it once every 1d4 rounds. But then you'll be greeted by Airwalk, and face punching by the Mummy Lord.

And Svirfneblin is a terrible race. Then you have 6HD total, instead of 9.

Cuddly
2007-12-27, 01:00 AM
But what I'd actually want to do is buy 2 staffs, just for fun, and a scroll of animal growth. Grow my familiar, hand him the other staff, he uses my ranks, and bam, double searing light at quite high caster levels. Also don't forget Skill Focus and magical aptitude, just because I can.

Animal growth doesn't work on magic beasts.

Kaelik
2007-12-27, 01:10 AM
Animal growth doesn't work on magic beasts.

Since I'm UMDing it anyway, there are several things to do.

1) There are spells somewhere that could do it.
2) Shrink Item on the Staff.

Cuddly
2007-12-27, 01:16 AM
I think there's a wu jen spell that lets you get bigger.