Warhammer 40K vs. Exalted [Archive] - Page 2 - Giant in the Playground Forums

Rutee

2008-03-26, 03:07 PM

Everything is swarmable in Wh40k...If you play badly and expose him needlessly. If you play well, taking cover and waiting for the right moment to strike, that legendary unit with that uber bolter, sword and armor is going to tear a big hole in the enemy army all by himself.

And yeah, you're right, psykers are the strongest guys in Wh40k. But guess what? 99% of the big guys in the WH40K universe are big because they had latent psyker powers that helped them do impossible things like deflecting bullets by force of will, flying, keeping the moral of their troops up, etc, etc.
Good. Then these legendary units might be on par with Dragonblooded. Too bad solo DBs still get curbstomped by Solars.

Also, the warp has the nasty effect of creating psyker powers on normal people, so normal humans who have fighted the chaos forces for years and years ends up developing psyker powers.

So if the solar tries to convince the space marine squad that the emperor is wrong, all he'll get in response is the chapter's librarian shouting off quotes from their book and loosing an hail of bullets.
The first part is good. All the better when converted.
The second.. that seems improbable. The Chaos Space Marines strike me as rather stark examples that Marines can be converted. I read the condensed version of the Horus Heresy; I wouldn't exactly call what happened manipulation at its best.

What if I pick a legendary army? There are several groups of warriors that have atained legendary status after several big deeds. They're basically adventuring parties that instead of 4 people have 400 or 4000 or 40000.

They'll not count as peons, but still have numbers on their side.

For example,the 13th space wolves company, wich has been locked in the warp for milleniums fighting the chaos forces whitout any kind of reinforcment. There are even special rules for them.
Yeah, but there are only what, a thousand of them? They might be on par with Dragonblooded, but they lack a stupendously, illogically good General to lead them. Gimme a Legion of Dragonblooded, a Sidereal Adviser, a Solar General, and a Lunar Commander, and I guarantee I can trump the Space Wolves without a contest.

Anyway, it's funny that the SM also are intended by fluff as being the most perfect and mighty things humanity has ever created.

The WH40k verse's version of "Perfection" is orders of magnitude less then Exalted's.

By Exalted rules, they are probably still extras. Maybe, maybe Heroic Mortals - which means they probably won't die from one blow (if they get hit by a non-combat oriented Exalted), but they are still too weak to even dent a more experienced Exalted fighter.
I'm pretty sure SMs could dent a Solar.

streakster

2008-03-26, 03:11 PM

I don't seek to expand the fight, Streakster, please don't take this as such; I just want to point out that this is Exalted's design philosophy as well. Herakles, the Yellow Emperor, Zhuang Zhi, Archimedes, Gilgamesh, and many other mythical inventors, philosophers, warriors, and heroes are cited as good starting points for Solars.

Oh, I know. That's why I like them both so much. (Don't get to play Exalted, much, though.) I wasn't trying to say anything about either Exalted or 40K - just sum up GWII.

I'm firmly on the side of the Exalted, here - though "The rule systems aren't compatible and therefore there isn't any good way to tell" seems to work, too.

Oslecamo

2008-03-26, 03:29 PM

Yeah, but there are only what, a thousand of them? They might be on par with Dragonblooded, but they lack a stupendously, illogically good General to lead them. Gimme a Legion of Dragonblooded, a Sidereal Adviser, a Solar General, and a Lunar Commander, and I guarantee I can trump the Space Wolves without a contest.

A stupendously, ilogically good General to lead them coming up.

Leman Russ, the space wolf founders, one of the ten sons of the emperor.

The only man in existence who beat the emperor itself in 2 contests. Also arguably the best melee fighter of the universe, since he beated Horus in melee and Horus beat the emperor in melee(but geting himself killed with an uber psychic attack in the end). He beated the crap out of an traitor space marine chapter almost by himself. He kicked the butt of the second strongest psyker in the universe(the first being the emperor), but didn't finish him off because he managed to run into the warp in the last moment.

He was the one who sent the 13th company to the warp to hunt said traitor chapter. He disapeared shortly after the Horus heresy ended, and as legend goes, he went to try to find the 13th company and join them to finish what he started.

He is too strong to have stats in WH40k. Actually, the most powerfull characters in WH40K univserse don't get game stats, because when you have powers such as controling the population of entire planets or beating entire chapters by yourself, then there's no balanced way you can include them in the game.

May I remind you, the Emperor alone managed to unite a million of planets and create the biggest known empire in the universe. What are the solar's greatest achievements in comparison?

And the horus heresy, well, it took hundreds of years of carefull preparation from the chaos forces to achieve it, veerrryyy ssssslowwwwlllyyy corrutping the space marines, and the Emperor still ended up winning in the end.

Rutee

2008-03-26, 03:36 PM

Just read the thread. I don't really feel like repeating everyone for the umpteenth. Suffice it to say, the God Emperor of Man is equivalent to one First Age Solar, or one of the Deathlords.

Tweekinator

2008-03-26, 04:02 PM

Just read the thread. I don't really feel like repeating everyone for the umpteenth. Suffice it to say, the God Emperor of Man is equivalent to one First Age Solar, or one of the Deathlords.

I was going to argue, but since it suffices to say that "the God Emperor of Man is equivalent to one First Age Solar, or one of the Deathlords", then I guess that fact is set in stone and beyond reproach. Because it's obviously a fact.:smallsigh:

But really folks, you can stop the Exalted vs 40K ****-slapping contest. They are not comparable systems and if you try to do fluff vs fluff, why they both win! The fluff from each system has beings that are all-powerful! *gasp* Well, then which all-powerful being wins? We could go with Exalted's risk-like take in that the defender wins(thus combining our fluff with mechanics), or we could go with the 40K in which the Space Marines or other Imperium troops/heroes eventually win. Oh noes! The fluffs are incompatible as well!

I had to post this due to the giant "Exalted is best EVER!" circle jerk going on. You may continue your discussion.

Poison_Fish

2008-03-26, 04:07 PM

Just read the thread. I don't really feel like repeating everyone for the umpteenth. Suffice it to say, the God Emperor of Man is equivalent to one First Age Solar, or one of the Deathlords.

I'd say one first age solar.

As well, Oslecamo, perfection in the 40k verse is purely fluff only. Perfection in the Exalted verse is mechanical in nature. There is a rather large difference in how that works.

As well, just because your psychic doesn't make you immune to manipulation and corruption. How about all those librarians turned sorcerers? The whispers of chaos, at it's best, is equivaliant to the whispers of the malfeans. Granted, the malfeans are a lot more emo rather then tempting, but it remains regardless.

May I remind you, the Emperor alone managed to unite a million of planets and create the biggest known empire in the universe. What are the solar's greatest achievements in comparison?

And may I remind you that the emperor didn't have 299 other versions of himself all competing for control. He also didn't have to handle a huge amounts of concepts manifest in beings of great power (with a few exceptions being the chaos gods, namely, a small amount of them). He also didn't have to deal with 300 mates of his of equal power, also vying for control. Nor did have 100 advisors of just slightly less power then him all manipulating each other(The primarchs come close).

He had the dragonblood's equals in the form of elite space marines. But they weren't all simultaneously betraying him along with his primarchs, only half of them were. And I don't think Horus betrayed the emperor while the emperor was in the middle of an orgy with his pants down while completely sloshed on thousands of drinks consisting of 95% alcohol content (It would have gone better for Horus if he did). Granted, Horus's betrayal was pretty good.

/end rage.

At this point though, we are all going through the same replies a few pages ago, like some sort of group of constantly blabbering heads. I don't see anything all that new here, and I think we've exhausted anything interesting left to add to this. Unless we all love death metal and head banging with 2 x 4's.

Oslecamo

2008-03-26, 04:27 PM

Poison_Fish

2008-03-26, 04:32 PM

Wait a minute, that is completely contradictory, even for a no logic system like exalted.

If solars are perfect, what the hell are they doing geting completely drunk in orgies? Why so much hate between them? Perfection demands harmony, but those guys surely don't seem very harmonic between them.

Why are they competing against each other also? Shouldn't they, I dunno, try to worck togheter to make the universe a better place for all mankind, like the emperor intended?

lulz, perfection means everything is made of puppies and candy. Everyone SHARES when there is perfection. lulz.

I think that's more a jump of logic on your part to assume perfection means everything works fine and dandy. But then, I can see where you would come with that conclusion if you thought the game was boring and you never had a "challenge" in exalted. Granted, this is all largely dependent on the story teller.

I mean, if the space marines were perfect, why do they fall in battle to the swarm of flashlights lasguns of chaos cultists?

The "perfection" of exalted is within the mechanics. A sword strike so perfect it parries the planet. The being itself, because it has abilities such as this, is considered near perfect. But it's still a being with it's own wants and desires. I wouldn't consider a solar perfect, I would consider the actions of what a solar does, however, perfect.

While for space marines, they are less "perfect" and more the "ideal" embodiment of a man. They don't parry planets however.

Rutee

2008-03-26, 04:33 PM

I was going to argue, but since it suffices to say that "the God Emperor of Man is equivalent to one First Age Solar, or one of the Deathlords", then I guess that fact is set in stone and beyond reproach. Because it's obviously a fact.:smallsigh:
I implore you; Please read past posts. The logic, fluff, and mechanical backup that supports this has been gone over at great length, I just don't want to repeat it.

I had to post this due to the giant "Exalted is best EVER!" circle jerk going on. You may continue your discussion.

Guess what: The first person who posited that? 40k fan who argued for 40k! It was, of course, intended as a derogative, but I've never supported that anyway. Honestly there's been longer circle jerks for 40k.

Wait a minute, that is completely contradictory, even for a no logic system like exalted.

If solars are perfect, what the hell are they doing geting completely drunk in orgies? Why so much hate between them? Perfection demands harmony, but those guys surely don't seem very harmonic between them.
They accomplish tasks perfectly; There was a Curse worked into their being by the Abrahamic Gods they whupped though, and it makes them proud, and terrible, Perfect tyrants.

Are you familiar with celtic legends of the Fae? It's kinda like the wording there, where they're terrifying, but utterly resplendent and awe inspiring just the same, sorta. They're Perfect at everything they try and do, including a reign of terror.

Why are they competing against each other also? Shouldn't they, I dunno, try to worck togheter to make the universe a better place for all mankind, like the emperor intended?
They were, Poison Fish was simply speaking colloquially. Allow me to rephrase his statement so as to convey his meaning:

Could the Emperor have feasibly done all of that, if there were multiple emperors? Surely, Other Emperors would handle aspects of the work, no? I mean, as you just said, they would work together; This logically means each contributes less singly. THAT is why a single Solar can not claim such a long list of accomplishments; Because there's 699 other divinely powerful people all working for the good of Creation.

Tweekinator

2008-03-26, 04:38 PM

I implore you; Please read past posts. The logic, fluff, and mechanical backup that supports this has been gone over at great length, I just don't want to repeat it.

Guess what: The first person who posited that? 40k fan who argued for 40k! It was, of course, intended as a derogative, but I've never supported that anyway. Honestly there's been longer circle jerks for 40k.

To be fair, I've only read the last 3 pages, for I am lazy.

And who posited the whatsit?

Poison_Fish

2008-03-26, 04:44 PM

Guess what: The first person who posited that? 40k fan who argued for 40k! It was, of course, intended as a derogative, but I've never supported that anyway. Honestly there's been longer circle jerks for 40k.

Actually, if we go to the big ole book of vs threads, namely, go a bunch of months back, the Ra-ra'ing for universes started with Lord of the Rings, then morphed into 40K being the popular "lulz, I win" group. This old exalted thread only came up because Exalted was being used as a counter example when people would compare one verse to another, with the equivalent image of Hamster vs. Nuclear Bomb that's already been dropped. "lolololollol exterminatus kills prissy elves, lolololol. NEXT!? I'm looking at you, farm boy with beam sword!! Chaos demons possess the death star, lololololol."

So, what does that make this essentially? "lolololol, solar perfect social combo, your forces join mine, lolololol".

That's kind of how this goes.

Rutee

2008-03-26, 04:46 PM

The first person to genuinely say "Exalted trumps everything" was Illiterate Scribe. I'm sure he was exaggerating on some level, though he /did/ say he didn't think the Culture could beat Exalted, which I understand are considered tops. As I haven't read what they're from, I can't really say, but Exalted fans haven't said it's teh pwnzorz over all or anything. Heck, until someone reminded me what Higher Powered Solars are capable of, I thought it'd be WH40k and didn't think it worth consideration.

And fair enough, honestly. The thread as a whole is tl;dr. I'm just saying, please don't confuse my saying "GEoM is pretty much what /one/ FA Solar is" as me just talking without bothering to read what either is capable of. I'm not explaining the logic underlying the conclusion, but it's back there, and I'm just getting exhausted at the subject. It's pretty much just a restatement of points at <Person who favors Faction Y> ad infinitum at this point (Though I really dug how the Tyranids were flatly immune, due to their setup, to any attempt to social them into obedience; It's pretty cool that there's stuff you can't talk to death.)

ColdBrew

2008-03-26, 04:49 PM

Of course we all know Sauron would beat BOTH of them because he's a master manipulator and his Uruk-Hai know no fear.

puppyavenger

2008-03-26, 04:54 PM

Since it's pretty obvius that the Solars win against normal 40k, can they beat all the most powerful parts of 40k put together
1. The golden age of the imperium, before the Heresy, led by the primarchs themselve
2. The legions of demons that have numbers equel to the number of emotions that any sapient being in the history of the universe has felt, probably a few solar equivilents in there
3. The Eldar empire, galactic empire of super-phsykers plus gods
4. The C'tan-Old One war, Old-ones are the for-runners of 40k, who fought an galactic war with the C'tan, when they were numeros and led by the void-dragon( size of mars, could probably kill the emperor, can wipe out stars ans destroy planets ala death star anyway)
5. The tyranids after they have wiped out the rest of the galaxy and picked the best traits of all of them, including the best the orks can come up with.

Poison_Fish

2008-03-26, 04:55 PM

Of course we all know Sauron would beat BOTH of them because he's a master manipulator and his Uruk-Hai know no fear.

And star trek would just bounce the graviton particle beam off the main deflector dish.

streakster

2008-03-26, 04:58 PM

Ah, but they are only fighting because it was part of Batman's plan all along.

Oslecamo

2008-03-26, 05:10 PM

They accomplish tasks perfectly; There was a Curse worked into their being by the Abrahamic Gods they whupped though, and it makes them proud, and terrible, Perfect tyrants.

Are you familiar with celtic legends of the Fae? It's kinda like the wording there, where they're terrifying, but utterly resplendent and awe inspiring just the same, sorta. They're Perfect at everything they try and do, including a reign of terror.

They were, Poison Fish was simply speaking colloquially. Allow me to rephrase his statement so as to convey his meaning:

Could the Emperor have feasibly done all of that, if there were multiple emperors? Surely, Other Emperors would handle aspects of the work, no? I mean, as you just said, they would work together; This logically means each contributes less singly. THAT is why a single Solar can not claim such a long list of accomplishments; Because there's 699 other divinely powerful people all working for the good of Creation.

I don't recall the celtic gods being perfect or anything nearby. Actually one of their main characteristics was the multitude of flaws they had.

Also, there is no such thing as perfect reigns of terror. A reign of terror is always a wrong thing to do, as it stops humans from developing and being happy. The main purpose of life is to breed more life. Terror in the other hand is a tool created by mankind to supress life. Thus terror can never be perfect in the true sense of the word.

Exalted characters, no matter how "perfect" they are at what they do, are still imperfect, because they only truly care about themselves. A solar cannot grant great powers to simple mortals. If a solar dies, all his worck will be quickly undone, since the Solar's deeds seem to have faded with history. It doesn't matter how perfect you are if you're the only one benefeting from it.

The emperor, on the other hand, ensured that mankind had the technology, knowledge and power to develop by itself should he fall. The main proof is that even after his almost death the Emperium of Men still stands strong despite all the hardships it endured. His psyker powers still guide the human ships in the galaxy. His armor still defends those who carry a part of it. His will still protect the believers from demonic possesion.

Finnally, the emperor was born out of the sacrifice of the wisest and strongest of humankind in the Wh40K universe. Hundreds of elite shamans, mages, philosophers, great warriors, etc, made a mass suicide and fusioned their souls to create the ultimate human who would lead humankind to glory. They did this exactly to make sure there would be no needless competition between them, as it seems to happen between the solar characters. They sacrificed their individuality to help the whole of the humanity, something I believe solars would never be able to do.

streakster

2008-03-26, 05:24 PM

Also, there is no such thing as perfect reigns of terror. A reign of terror is always a wrong thing to do, as it stops humans from developing and being happy. The main purpose of life is to breed more life. Terror in the other hand is a tool created by mankind to supress life. Thus terror can never be perfect in the true sense of the word.

Exalted characters, no matter how "perfect" they are at what they do, are still imperfect, because they only truly care about themselves. A solar cannot grant great powers to simple mortals. If a solar dies, all his worck will be quickly undone, since the Solar's deeds seem to have faded with history. It doesn't matter how perfect you are if you're the only one benefeting from it.

Perfect does not work that way. Good night.

Look, you can have a perfect murder, the perfect crime, the perfect weapon. They need not be morally perfect to be perfect in other areas. And do you know anything about exalted? When one dies, passing his powers to mere mortals is exactly what happens.

Heck, even if I accept your above argument, verbatim, it doesn't help you in the slightest. The Exalted don't have to be right to win. Not to mention, if they actually were evil (most aren't) that would only make it easier for them to win. War's easier when you don't have to have any mercy.

Also, he said Celtic Fae, not gods, silly.

Innis Cabal

2008-03-26, 05:36 PM

Perfect

1. conforming absolutely to the description or definition of an ideal type: a perfect sphere; a perfect gentleman.
2. excellent or complete beyond practical or theoretical improvement: There is no perfect legal code. The proportions of this temple are almost perfect.
3. exactly fitting the need in a certain situation or for a certain purpose: a perfect actor to play Mr. Micawber; a perfect saw for cutting out keyholes.
4. entirely without any flaws, defects, or shortcomings: a perfect apple; the perfect crime.
5. accurate, exact, or correct in every detail: a perfect copy.
6. thorough; complete; utter: perfect strangers.
7. pure or unmixed: perfect yellow.
8. unqualified; absolute: He has perfect control over his followers.
9. expert; accomplished; proficient.
10. unmitigated; out-and-out; of an extreme degree: He made a perfect fool of himself.

I do not see how a reign of Terror(tm) could be "imperfect" using classical definitions. Morality and the like have nothing to do with perfection what so ever, as morality is an opinion, and an opinion is imperfect

Terror(tm), is also a hightened form of Fear, which is one of the 6 basic emotions. So, Terror(tm) is not man made at all, but in fact is a biological response to something the affected person's mind can not handle, thus also being completly without morals

Rutee

2008-03-26, 06:50 PM

I don't recall the celtic gods being perfect or anything nearby. Actually one of their main characteristics was the multitude of flaws they had.

Also, there is no such thing as perfect reigns of terror. A reign of terror is always a wrong thing to do, as it stops humans from developing and being happy. The main purpose of life is to breed more life. Terror in the other hand is a tool created by mankind to supress life. Thus terror can never be perfect in the true sense of the word.

Exalted characters, no matter how "perfect" they are at what they do, are still imperfect, because they only truly care about themselves. A solar cannot grant great powers to simple mortals. If a solar dies, all his worck will be quickly undone, since the Solar's deeds seem to have faded with history. It doesn't matter how perfect you are if you're the only one benefeting from it.

The emperor, on the other hand, ensured that mankind had the technology, knowledge and power to develop by itself should he fall. The main proof is that even after his almost death the Emperium of Men still stands strong despite all the hardships it endured. His psyker powers still guide the human ships in the galaxy. His armor still defends those who carry a part of it. His will still protect the believers from demonic possesion.

Finnally, the emperor was born out of the sacrifice of the wisest and strongest of humankind in the Wh40K universe. Hundreds of elite shamans, mages, philosophers, great warriors, etc, made a mass suicide and fusioned their souls to create the ultimate human who would lead humankind to glory. They did this exactly to make sure there would be no needless competition between them, as it seems to happen between the solar characters. They sacrificed their individuality to help the whole of the humanity, something I believe solars would never be able to do.

Wait, you're claiming the guy who started the conquest of Xenos for the Good fo Man Perfectly moral? You've got issues dude. You can't go around bashing the heads in of people who are different from you just because it's good for people who are like you. A Perfectly Moral person would attempt to make everyone happy. So no, if you want to talk Perfect Morality, find a setting that isn't 40k or Exalted.

Notwithstanding that we're discussing perfection of Form and Function, not perfection of Purpose.

Now, my bad, I misspoke slightly. That should read

"Are you familiar with celtic legends of the Fae? It's kinda like the wording there, where they're terrifying, but utterly resplendent and awe inspiring just the same, sorta. Solars are Perfect at everything they try and do, including a reign of terror."

Also, I explicitly said FAE, and was refering to how something can be wondrous and beautiful even while it's evil and horrifying.

Anyway, are you going to keep holding a ludicrously bad double standard up for morality, of all things, because that's the only vector you think you have a hope of shooting down the idea that Solars can accomplish tasks Perfectly? Because if so, I have no problems with leaving you up all alone on your pedestal, where only things that are Logical and Real are good fiction, and where you and you alone know the truth about how Humans should act. Because there's always going to be other people, and other things to do on the internet.

And on that note, Chainswords. CHAINSAWS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY! GOOD NIGHT!

Forevergrey

2008-03-26, 07:26 PM

as might someone who didn't have an education that showed the 'deep themes' of WH40k for the corporate drivel they are, but it's just so inconceivable..

HURF DERF

http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/4480/animatedmohammedsn3.gif

The plot of 40K has little changed from when it was created by a garage company on a shoe-string budget. I would have imagined even the most shallow of psuedo-intellectuals would have done some basic research before raging against the machine.

For an added seasoning of irony, Exalted was produced by a corporation. It also happens to be wish-fulfillment drivel. So, those two things you were raging about? Yeah.

Hey man, nice shot.

P.S.

White Wolf, Inc.

White Wolf, Inc.

Inc.

HURF DERF

Rutee

2008-03-26, 07:43 PM

Oh don't even. Someone was claiming they were /deep/ for playing WH40k, and acting as if they knew some special truth of the universe, as if playing a Tabletop game about minis beating the hell out of each other teaches one innate truths of the universe.

Exalted is fun, and can be epic, but I'm not a deep (or shallow, or any other sort) of person for playing it. Exalted is a game. I'm not going to claim moral or ethical superiority for playing a game.

Forevergrey

2008-03-26, 07:47 PM

I guess that's the closest you're going to get to "I am wrong"

Rutee

2008-03-26, 07:50 PM

To be wrong, I would have had to claim or otherwise insinuate that Exalted was responsible for my education, or that education or understanding was somehow related to Exalted. I didn't. I insinuated that education came.. from an institute of education. Not from a game.

Forevergrey

2008-03-26, 08:02 PM

Rutee

2008-03-26, 08:06 PM

Strike Three, Good Morning.

Forevergrey

2008-03-26, 08:12 PM

Strike Three, Good Morning.

Careful with retreating into the abstract there, it's easy to get lost.

Terraoblivion

2008-03-26, 08:13 PM

Said the man whose last argument consisted of a picture of tangential at best relevance...

an kobold

2008-03-26, 08:16 PM

And on that note, Chainswords. CHAINSAWS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY! GOOD NIGHT!

But I thought this was when the rule of cool kicked in. . .

Rutee

2008-03-26, 08:19 PM

But I thought this was when the rule of cool kicked in. . .

Oh, sure. I like the look, tons (Though naturally, the idea of a Chainsaw sword was introduced to me in a different setting). I simply find it hilarious that Oslecamo, who constantly protests the Rule of Cool for 'realism' defends the faction that makes the most judicious and obvious use of them. Hence, a snipe at their realism. It's kinda like dropping a paperclip at the doorway when you're done arguing with someone really anal retentive. You may not hate paper clips, but tweaking someone with it is still interesting.

Forevergrey

2008-03-26, 08:20 PM

Said the man whose last argument consisted of a picture of tangential at best relevance...

Comparing incomprehensible messages to incomprehensible messages is too much of a strech?

Terraoblivion

2008-03-26, 08:25 PM

Or perhaps i was just making a really obvious joke at your expense and you are just trying to cover it? I mean i am fairly certain an English teacher would call Rutee more eloquent and comprehensible than the writing on that sign not to mention that she was actually talking about the topic at hand instead of just handing out an insult in an off-topic way.

Forevergrey

2008-03-26, 08:26 PM

EvilElitest

2008-03-26, 08:27 PM

Wait, so in Exalted, you are safer fighting ten thousand dudes then when you fight one? WFT?

I know very little on ether side, and i really don't know details, but answer me this

1. If every single random WH dude does a bit of damage to the Exalted Heroes, then wouldn't they eventually get overrun? eventually?
2. Doesn't 40k have bombs, guns, nukes, tanks, machine guns and what not at their disposal?
3. What about the Exalted Mooks? Wouldn't they all get killed by the 40K Mooks? If they destroy all of the normal guys, then destroy all of the land, wouldn't the Exalted just starve?
Then again, what do i know

And on that note, Chainswords. CHAINSAWS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY! GOOD NIGHT!

Well under the same note, fighting tons of enemies is harder, not easier you realize
from
EE

EvilElitest

2008-03-26, 08:30 PM

Terraoblivion

2008-03-26, 08:32 PM

Defends on who the ten thousand dudes are and who the single one is, EE. If the single guy is Farmer Bob who wields a pitchfork it really doesn't matter, whereas if he was God himself then he really is more dangerous than ten thousand farmers. Makes kind of sense, it is just a rather extreme scaling of power between top and bottom.

And the thing is ten thousand ordinary people, no matter their weapons, will be able to harm an Exalted who will be able to go without any human necessities including air, food and sleep. They will be able to parry the nuclear blast while being completely immune to the radiation from it and not care that everything is destroyed. Every single bullet will be parried as well, most likely at no cost even.

EvilElitest

2008-03-26, 08:34 PM

Defends on who the ten thousand dudes are and who the single one is, EE. If the single guy is Farmer Bob who wields a pitchfork it really doesn't matter, whereas if he was God himself then he really is more dangerous than ten thousand farmers. Makes kind of sense, it is just a rather extreme scaling of power between top and bottom.

Sure, but would the Exalted in question have an easier time with nine thousand then?

And the thing is ten thousand ordinary people, no matter their weapons, will be able to harm an Exalted who will be able to go without any human necessities including air, food and sleep. They will be able to parry the nuclear blast while being completely immune to the radiation from it and not care that everything is destroyed. Every single bullet will be parried as well, most likely at no cost even.
Wait, does it say in the rules they are immune to Nukes? i mean they do destroy massive amounts of land and radiation is nasty. I mean look at the damage one of them caused
from
EE

Rutee

2008-03-26, 08:36 PM

Forevergrey

2008-03-26, 08:37 PM

EvilElitest

2008-03-26, 08:39 PM

No, Warhammer 40k falls apart harder then Exalted when the Rule of Cool is sucked out. Without the Rule of Cool or anything, Exalted is just a really huge medieval and chinese world. It's also flat, which is impossible too. Forge Worlds don't work, CIty Worlds don't work, IoM infrastructure doesn't work, Orks don't work, Tyranids don't work, most of their /tech/, all around, doesn't work, etc. I don't mind, because I wouldn't suck the Rule of Cool out of either; That just leaves two boring settings.

1. Wait, your mixing the two. Exalted is flat (and some how still has a sun and moon?) so wouldn't it just cease to exist?
2. If we take away rule of cool, don't guns simply destroy the medieval and Chinese setting. True i don't know what 40K would suffer from
3. I personally think that a game that relys on rule of cool strikes me as boring, but whatever
from
EE
Edit,
Your really milking the whole House sarcasm thing aren't you

Forevergrey

2008-03-26, 08:40 PM

streakster

2008-03-26, 08:40 PM

Sure, but would the Exalted in question have an easier time with nine thousand then?

Wait, does it say in the rules they are immune to Nukes? i mean they do destroy massive amounts of land and radiation is nasty. I mean look at the damage one of them caused
from
EE

Yes. You can parry anything. Logic is specifically marked as sir not appearing in this ability description. You can parry the nuke, you can parry the radiation.

Terraoblivion

2008-03-26, 08:41 PM

They are not directly immune to nukes, EE, but with the right charms they will parry the blast wave and be immune to all diseases and toxins, including radiation poisoning. So in effect you can become immune to nukes as an Exalted.

As for strength or weakness to large groups of people it is more that large groups of people become killable scenery if they are just ordinary humans without magical equipment. The best they can do is slow the enemy down and even that is unlikely. And due to the rules for stunting the easiest way to recharge in battle is by killing things.

EvilElitest

2008-03-26, 08:43 PM

Yes. You can parry anything. Logic is specifically marked as sir not appearing in this ability description. You can parry the nuke, you can parry the radiation.

how the hell does that make the pretense of sense? Its an explosion, a mass of fire and nukish energy? How can a sword parry that? What?
from
EE

EvilElitest

2008-03-26, 08:45 PM

They are not directly immune to nukes, EE, but with the right charms they will parry the blast wave and be immune to all diseases and toxins, including radiation poisoning. So in effect you can become immune to nukes as an Exalted.

Oh, so they aren't so much parrying it as not being hurt by it. Wouldn't the destruction of the land hurt them?

As for strength or weakness to large groups of people it is more that large groups of people become killable scenery if they are just ordinary humans without magical equipment. The best they can do is slow the enemy down and even that is unlikely. And due to the rules for stunting the easiest way to recharge in battle is by killing things.

But ten thousand random guys will do more than nine thousand right?
from
EE

an kobold

2008-03-26, 08:45 PM

Oh, sure. I like the look, tons (Though naturally, the idea of a Chainsaw sword was introduced to me in a different setting). I simply find it hilarious that Oslecamo, who constantly protests the Rule of Cool for 'realism' defends the faction that makes the most judicious and obvious use of them. Hence, a snipe at their realism. It's kinda like dropping a paperclip at the doorway when you're done arguing with someone really anal retentive. You may not hate paper clips, but tweaking someone with it is still interesting.

Okay, just making sure rule of cool applies to both. I luv mah chainswords. Every time I see one I hear WRYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY as I imagine it grind into a cultist's face :smallbiggrin: .

Just wondering, where did you hear about chainsaw swords other than from 40k?

And on another note, how did the Solars get to be defeated in the first place according to the setting fluff? I'm not the Exalted gamer in my group, another guy takes that claim, so when we play it it tends to be for epic one shots, so I know enough about the fluff to not be lost in the setting but nothing more. Someone mentioned earlier the Solars were drunk and/or having orgies when the dragonblooded rose up and killed them, so I know those circumstances would not apply in the hypothetical conflict with the IoM as stated by the rules of the thread, but I'm still curious and don't have a book in front of me.

Rutee

2008-03-26, 08:45 PM

1. Wait, your mixing the two. Exalted is flat (and some how still has a sun and moon?) so wouldn't it just cease to exist?
2. If we take away rule of cool, don't guns simply destroy the medieval and Chinese setting. True i don't know what 40K would suffer from
3. I personally think that a game that relys on rule of cool strikes me as boring, but whatever
from
EE

1. Yes, it would. Flat Worlds don't work either; It'd either become a Sphere, or it'd just wink out, which would mean there's no fight
2. No. The only things left in 40k would be the humans, who would starve before they could march across Creation because there's not enough to feed them all. IoM tech will stop functioning if logic is applied; It isn't entirely about the tech being impossible so much as how things are maintained (Look into, say, the Tech Priests, and how repairs are learned and done).
3. Play whatever you want. I really don't care. It's your time, play what's fun for you, by all means. Just don't get a superiority complex about it like these fa/tg/uys. Playing 'realistic' or 'grim n' dark' or 'Rule of Cool' or 'Artsy Fartsy' whatever games really only means you play that style of game. It doesn't mean you're a better, or smarter, or more understanding person.

Just wondering, where did you hear about chainsaw swords other than from 40k?
Standard equipment on the Lion Series (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion_%28Super_Robot_Wars%29) of Mechs in Super Robot Wars

And on another note, how did the Solars get to be defeated in the first place according to the setting fluff? I'm not the Exalted gamer in my group, another guy takes that claim, so when we play it it tends to be for epic one shots, so I know enough about the fluff to not be lost in the setting but nothing more. Someone mentioned earlier the Solars were drunk and/or having orgies when the dragonblooded rose up and killed them, so I know those circumstances would not apply in the hypothetical conflict with the IoM as stated by the rules of man, but I'm still curious and don't have a book in front of me.
In the High First Age, Solars were going slowly crazy from their power and the Curse that the Abrahamic God types of Exalted (The ones who the Exalted were made to curbstomp in the first place) wove into their divine essences. The Sidereals (Who were also crazy, but their insanity is in a different sort of arrogance; A Sidereal is never wrong. Their prophecies are flawless. Except they're not, but that's more metaphysics that just aren't worth the space) saw that if the Solars remained in power, things would go to pot. They did not know what would happen if they tried to rehabilitate the Solars.. but if they lead their Dragonblooded Soldiers in a coup against them, they could salvage Creation somewhat. It'd be a lesser Creation without the wondrous magitech that the Solars and Lunars could create, but it would still /be/ there. So they set up a big, intricate betrayal and slew about 60% of them in one night by catching them off guard in things like big parties, galas, orgies, etc; Presumably, they countered Solar Mojo with their own, they don't go into mechanical specifics, though there are Charms that the Dragonblooded have that you can tell are there, mechanically, to justify how they managed to dogpile the Solars. And the Solars and Lunars still took pretty huge chunks out of the DB and Sidereals, even when well and truly caught off guard (The scarier ones are the ones who survived that first night).

Basically, Sidereals aren't THAT much weaker then Solars, and lead Solar-trained troops against them after teaching them Charms that specifically combated Solars.

streakster

2008-03-26, 08:45 PM

Talk about poor game design. Allowing you to parry AoE attacks :smallsigh:

Still, credit where it's due. Every socially backward shut-in wants to be a prettyful princess with godlike powers that those disgusting peasants must bow down to. Money machine.

Ho ha heee snort...

Never played a game, eh?

See, Exalted is so challenging, if done right, that having the ability to be flat-out immune to everything does not make a character overpowered.

And you've got no room to talk. Ahem.

Every socially backward shut-in wants to be a powerful military commander who has little imaginary men who actually respect him, unlike everyone else in his life. Money machine.

See? That adds nothing to this debate.

But ten thousand random guys will do more than nine thousand right?
from
EE

EE, you know castlevania? That new one, with all the soul sucky? When you start, bats are dangerous, right? But later on, they can't even hurt you. Then, when you get that one health drainy soul, bats go from enemies to little flying snacks.

It's kinda like that. Like trying to beat a dog to death with bacon strips.

Terraoblivion

2008-03-26, 08:50 PM

EvilElitest

2008-03-26, 08:50 PM

1. Yes, it would. Flat Worlds don't work either; It'd either become a Sphere, or it'd just wink out, which would mean there's no fight
2. No. The only things left in 40k would be the humans, who would starve before they could march across Creation because there's not enough to feed them all. IoM tech will stop functioning if logic is applied; It isn't entirely about the tech being impossible so much as how things are maintained (Look into, say, the Tech Priests, and how repairs are learned and done).
3. Play whatever you want. I really don't care. It's your time, play what's fun for you, by all means. Just don't get a superiority complex about it like these fa/tg/uys. Playing 'realistic' or 'grim n' dark' or 'Rule of Cool' or 'Artsy Fartsy' whatever games really only means you play that style of game. It doesn't mean you're a better, or smarter, or more understanding person.

1. Fair enough
2. Well depends, what if we put both forces on a flat plane
3. As a gamer? No. however being able to parry a nuke is still silly. I can criticize the concept itself yes, just not the gamers who simply have a personal preference. from what i've heard Exalted is a good game for that design actually, the things that were mentioned specifically are quite absurd however
from
EE

MeklorIlavator

2008-03-26, 08:53 PM

And on another note, how did the Solars get to be defeated in the first place according to the setting fluff? I'm not the Exalted gamer in my group, another guy takes that claim, so when we play it it tends to be for epic one shots, so I know enough about the fluff to not be lost in the setting but nothing more. Someone mentioned earlier the Solars were drunk and/or having orgies when the dragonblooded rose up and killed them, so I know those circumstances would not apply in the hypothetical conflict with the IoM as stated by the rules of man, but I'm still curious and don't have a book in front of me.

You can check it out on wikipedia, but from what I gleaned from that page, the Solars were cursed by ancient gods to become over-prideful and all that stuff. Eventually they got to the point were creation itself was threatened, and thus the sidreals helped guide the dragon-blooded towards insurrection while also deceiving the solars/lunars. The Dragon-blooded were able to surprise and overwhelm the Solars peicemeal with overwhelming numbers(10000 to 300), thus destroying the solar.

EvilElitest

2008-03-26, 08:53 PM

EE, you know castlevania? That new one, with all the soul sucky? When you start, bats are dangerous, right? But later on, they can't even hurt you. Then, when you get that one health drainy soul, bats go from enemies to little flying snacks.

It's kinda like that. Like trying to beat a dog to death with bacon strips.

No i can understand that yeah. But in castlevania if you were surrounded by millions of bats at the same time, you'd go down however

As for the relative effect of ten thousand random guys on a powerful exalt compared to nine thousand then, it is the same. The only real difference is that the enemy will run out of essence sooner than otherwise, but we are talking on a completely academic scale. In reality everything above a few hundred doesn't really matter once the point is reached where the exalt in question is immune to random guys.

And you can dodge the shock wave, parry it or just be so inhumanly tough that it doesn't hurt you. And those are just the ways solars can avoid it.
But wait, so the fact that ten thousand guys are shooting at the dude doesn't hinder him in the least?

Does exalted work under the assumption that only people with names can hurt exalted then:smallconfused:
from
EE

tyckspoon

2008-03-26, 08:58 PM

No i can understand that yeah. But in castlevania if you were surrounded by millions of bats at the same time, you'd go down however

Unless you just flail your whip around or cast an area spell or use one of the barrier-type subweapons.. there's lots of ways to deal with a bunch of weak enemies in the newer Castlevania games that are being discussed. A Castlevania where you can't handle a screenful of bats is one where you wouldn't have the fun 'flying snacks' ability under discussion.

But wait, so the fact that ten thousand guys are shooting at the dude doesn't hinder him in the least?

Does exalted work under the assumption that only people with names can hurt exalted then:smallconfused:
from
EE

You might want to get yourself checked for short-term memory loss.

EvilElitest

2008-03-26, 09:01 PM

Unless you just flail your whip around or cast an area spell or use one of the barrier-type subweapons.. there's lots of ways to deal with a bunch of weak enemies in the newer Castlevania games that are being discussed. A Castlevania where you can't handle a screenful of bats is one where you wouldn't have the fun 'flying snacks' ability under discussion.

In theory however, should you be surrounded by, um, 100 billion bats you'd be in a lot of trouble (if they all attacked at the same time that is).

You might want to get yourself checked for short-term memory loss.

Eh, i'm still trying to find the logic in this
from
EE

streakster

2008-03-26, 09:02 PM

No i can understand that yeah. But in castlevania if you were surrounded by millions of bats at the same time, you'd go down however

Nah. Each bat can do one damage, right? Killing one is worth five, right? So, wield the Clamais Solais(sic) for the reach, and every swing heals you back to max. Use powers as appropiate, and it's just a matter of swinging and waiting. Tossing a Valkyrie or Curly would slaughter them in droves, or a Buer could be run till the combat ends with probably only a few Mind Ups, while keeping you perfectly safe.Plus, in exalted, the mooks won't even do that minimum one damage.

To reference your 100 billion bit, maybe in Castlevania. But now, perfect the analogy. Bats do no damage, and killing them restores magic points. 100 billion bats, in that situation, would be much better than 1 million. More magic for me!

Rutee

2008-03-26, 09:03 PM

1. Fair enough
2. Well depends, what if we put both forces on a flat plane
3. As a gamer? No. however being able to parry a nuke is still silly. I can criticize the concept itself yes, just not the gamers who simply have a personal preference. from what i've heard Exalted is a good game for that design actually, the things that were mentioned specifically are quite absurd however
from
EE

1. Then you would prove that guys with guns beat up guys with swords. That's what you've reduced the settings to after stripping the Rule of Cool.
2. Well.. you can't really criticize the concept in any meaningful sense either. I mean you can try, but the concept in question explicitly doesn't care at /all/ about what you care about. It wouldn't actually say anything in the end besides "I don't like the Rule of Cool".

an kobold

2008-03-26, 09:07 PM

The solars got defeated because not only were they surprised, drunk, stoned and swarmed by dragonblooded the sidereals and likely even a few lunars helped kill them. Also killing a powerful exalt is really more about ensuring they run out of essence before you do and Dragonblooded are eminently useful at doing that to solars as they force the solars to expend large amounts of essence to keep them in check.

As for the relative effect of ten thousand random guys on a powerful exalt compared to nine thousand then, it is the same. The only real difference is that the enemy will run out of essence sooner than otherwise, but we are talking on a completely academic scale. In reality everything above a few hundred doesn't really matter once the point is reached where the exalt in question is immune to random guys.

And you can dodge the shock wave, parry it or just be so inhumanly tough that it doesn't hurt you. And those are just the ways solars can avoid it.

In the High First Age, Solars were going slowly crazy from their power and the Curse that the Abrahamic God types of Exalted (The ones who the Exalted were made to curbstomp in the first place) wove into their divine essences. The Sidereals (Who were also crazy, but their insanity is in a different sort of arrogance; A Sidereal is never wrong. Their prophecies are flawless. Except they're not, but that's more metaphysics that just aren't worth the space) saw that if the Solars remained in power, things would go to pot. They did not know what would happen if they tried to rehabilitate the Solars.. but if they lead their Dragonblooded Soldiers in a coup against them, they could salvage Creation somewhat. It'd be a lesser Creation without the wondrous magitech that the Solars and Lunars could create, but it would still /be/ there. So they set up a big, intricate betrayal and slew about 60% of them in one night by catching them off guard in things like big parties, galas, orgies, etc; Presumably, they countered Solar Mojo with their own, they don't go into mechanical specifics, though there are Charms that the Dragonblooded have that you can tell are there, mechanically, to justify how they managed to dogpile the Solars. And the Solars and Lunars still took pretty huge chunks out of the DB and Sidereals, even when well and truly caught off guard (The scarier ones are the ones who survived that first night).

Basically, Sidereals aren't THAT much weaker then Solars, and lead Solar-trained troops against them after teaching them Charms that specifically combated Solars.

You can check it out on wikipedia, but from what I gleaned from that page, the Solars were cursed by ancient gods to become over-prideful and all that stuff. Eventually they got to the point were creation itself was threatened, and thus the sidreals helped guide the dragon-blooded towards insurrection while also deceiving the solars/lunars. The Dragon-blooded were able to surprise and overwhelm the Solars peicemeal with overwhelming numbers(10000 to 300), thus destroying the solar.

Facepalm.jpeg at myself. That was stupid of me to ignore wikipedia. Thanks!
Hubris. . .hmm. . .that's just as likely to defeat 40k as it is Exalted. So much for that theory.

Okay, that clears up a lot for me. Not going with the feasibility of either setting, I have to concede to Exalted.

FOR THE EMPER. . .SOLAR ZENITHS!

Forevergrey

2008-03-26, 09:09 PM

Ho ha heee snort...

Never played a game, eh?

No time for LARPing, I'm too busy moving around my little mens. Pew-pew!

tyckspoon

2008-03-26, 09:10 PM

Eh, i'm still trying to find the logic in this
from
EE

Yeah, that's why I suggested having your memory checked. It's been stated many times through the course of this thread. There isn't any real-world logic in Exalted. Your frame of reference seems to be stuck on the average human being. The Average Human Being can't fight a nigh-infinite number of opponents, no matter how much better he is than any single one. The Average Human Being can't survive standing at ground zero of a large bomb, let alone a nuke. Therefore, Exalts can't either or it makes no sense. Your frame of reference is completely wrong for the topic. Exalts are not Average Human Beings in any way. Exalted runs on a form of reason that is completely alien to your weird demands that everything fit with a mundane world. Parry a nuke? Yes. Why? Because It's Awesome.

streakster

2008-03-26, 09:14 PM

If it makes you feel better, you can imagine them leaping up and smacking the bomb away.

Forevergrey

2008-03-26, 09:31 PM

If it makes you feel better, you can imagine them leaping up and smacking the bomb away.

Ho ha heee snort...

You've never suffered an atomic attack, have you?

streakster

2008-03-26, 09:32 PM

Ho ha heee snort...

You've never suffered an atomic attack, have you?

Ho ha heee snort...

You have no imagination, do you?

Of course I never have. You've never actually commanded an Ork army.

Yet, both of us can imagine doing those things.

By the way, are you truly here to argue some point, or just for lulz?

Forevergrey

2008-03-26, 09:46 PM

Ho ha heee snort...

You have no imagination, do you?

Of course I never have. You've never actually commanded an Ork army.

Yet, both of us can imagine doing those things.

By the way, are you truly here to argue some point, or just for lulz?

Ho ha heee snort...

Of course I do, unicorns can be both pink and invisible.

Also, I'm here for both pointscoring and lulz. I'm finding the lulz easier as the points seem to bounce off various forum members thick hide of ignorance.

Poison_Fish

2008-03-26, 09:51 PM

Terraoblivion

2008-03-26, 09:55 PM

Also you can't be very good at either given that you come off rather fun, Forevergrey. Kinda like Jack Thompson actually.

streakster

2008-03-26, 09:58 PM

Ho ha heee snort...

Of course I do, unicorns can be both pink and invisible.

Also, I'm here for both pointscoring and lulz. I'm finding the lulz easier as the points seem to bounce off various forum members thick hide of ignorance.

Ho ha heee snort...

You haven't taken a philosophy of perception class, have you?

I haven't seen you and a point in any proximity to each other, but I'll grant that you're quite amusing in a "crazy codger" sort of way.

EvilElitest

2008-03-26, 10:01 PM

Nah. Each bat can do one damage, right? Killing one is worth five, right? So, wield the Clamais Solais(sic) for the reach, and every swing heals you back to max. Use powers as appropiate, and it's just a matter of swinging and waiting. Tossing a Valkyrie or Curly would slaughter them in droves, or a Buer could be run till the combat ends with probably only a few Mind Ups, while keeping you perfectly safe.Plus, in exalted, the mooks won't even do that minimum one damage.

To reference your 100 billion bit, maybe in Castlevania. But now, perfect the analogy. Bats do no damage, and killing them restores magic points. 100 billion bats, in that situation, would be much better than 1 million. More magic for me!

1. I think that bat only restore one damage actually
2. however a hundred billion bats will be hitting your many more times then you hit them however.

1. Then you would prove that guys with guns beat up guys with swords. That's what you've reduced the settings to after stripping the Rule of Cool.
2. Well.. you can't really criticize the concept in any meaningful sense either. I mean you can try, but the concept in question explicitly doesn't care at /all/ about what you care about. It wouldn't actually say anything in the end besides "I don't like the Rule of Cool".
1. So without rule of cool Exalted is screwed, with it 40K is screwed
2. Yeah you can, the same way you can criticize any concept (include non rule of cool games). For example, you could make an argument about how games without rule of cool are lacking in imagination and are closeminded in design, or that games with rule of cool offer so many more options ect

Yeah, that's why I suggested having your memory checked. It's been stated many times through the course of this thread. There isn't any real-world logic in Exalted. Your frame of reference seems to be stuck on the average human being. The Average Human Being can't fight a nigh-infinite number of opponents, no matter how much better he is than any single one. The Average Human Being can't survive standing at ground zero of a large bomb, let alone a nuke. Therefore, Exalts can't either or it makes no sense. Your frame of reference is completely wrong for the topic. Exalts are not Average Human Beings in any way. Exalted runs on a form of reason that is completely alien to your weird demands that everything fit with a mundane world. Parry a nuke? Yes. Why? Because It's Awesome.
doesn't explain how the sword parries the blast however.

This game reminds me of Dragon ball, am i just being paranoid

If it makes you feel better, you can imagine them leaping up and smacking the bomb away.
I'm in favor of the whole "Magic shield" that makes the Bomb useless theory actually
from
EE

streakster

2008-03-26, 10:10 PM

1. I think that bat only restore one damage actually
2. however a hundred billion bats will be hitting your many more times then you hit them however.

Succubus soul gives 5 hp per enemy hit. Giant Worm gives me 5hp per second I don't move. Alura Une lets me heal for MP. Curly let's me take no damage while disposing of bats en masse. Me no worry.

Plus, a finite amount can attack me at once. There's only so much screen space after all.

To use another example, mooks to exalted are like ghosts to Pac-Man during the period he has eaten a power dot.

Rutee

2008-03-26, 10:14 PM

Except the dot doesn't run out, yeah.

tyckspoon

2008-03-26, 10:16 PM

1. I think that bat only restore one damage actually
2. however a hundred billion bats will be hitting your many more times then you hit them however.

If you want to get into the specifics of the game, a hundred billion bats will just overload the system and probably freeze the game completely. Castlevania also includes an after-hit invincibility period that is longer than the hit-stun and does not, to the best of my memory, account for being hit by more than two things at once. This means the most damage a hundred billion bats can do at any one time is 1 damage. After which you can do something to kill all the bats who are somehow all occupying a small enough space to hit you at the same time.. probably freeze the game again while it's trying to calculate the results.

doesn't explain how the sword parries the blast however.

Yeah, this is the bit where you're apparently incapable of separating from mundanity. Exalted's explanation is 'I have a Charm that says I can.' That's it, that's all it needs. The specific how of it is totally irrelevant unless somebody thinks of a particularly Awesome way to do it, in which case he can get a stunt bonus for doing it that way.

Innis Cabal

2008-03-26, 10:31 PM

it blocks the blast the same way magic destroy's matter, its magic. The charm uses essence to fuel the power, its not the sword blocking the blast, its the essence of the charm.

Also, nerd-rage is funny, this thread has kept me loling for hours

Forevergrey

2008-03-26, 10:39 PM

Ho ha heee snort...

You haven't taken a philosophy of perception class, have you?

I haven't seen you and a point in any proximity to each other, but I'll grant that you're quite amusing in a "crazy codger" sort of way.
Ho ha heee snort.

So apart from constantly replying with "No, U", and an entirely unwarranted sence of self-importance what do you have to offer this showdown between grimdark wargames and self-aggrandizing LARP?

Rutee

2008-03-26, 10:46 PM

OBJECTION!

Trolling Attempts must score above a 0/10.

Forevergrey

2008-03-26, 11:01 PM

OBJECTION!

Trolling Attempts must score above a 0/10.

Egads, then it must be that you actually mean what you post.

May the lord have mercy on your soul.

an kobold

2008-03-26, 11:03 PM

Well, if we are doing things for the lulz and nerd RAAAGING, I wanna play!

The Last Resort
Primarch Leman Russ stood on the bridge of the Wolftime and looked down on the battlefield that stretched out before him. And stretched it did. Nowhere in all of Russ's travels through both the verse and the warp had the primarch seen anything like it. An infinite plane stretched out in all directions, seemingly to spread as far as the universe was wide. Despite the size of Russ' fleet, it only covered a fraction of the service of this damned world.
And damned it was. Never had Russ seen soldiers turn faster to corruption from the Emperor's will. All it took was one of those damn Solar Zippers to show up and an entire regiment of the guard, a chapter of the space marines, would defect, complete with chaplains, commissars, and commanders. Russ looked down at the massive continents where now billions of legions of the Imperium were fighting and dying, most often for the wrong side, and sighed as he uttered the orders that would blink out their lives and the lives of their enemies: "Exterminatus."
Where had it gone wrong? Things had gone so smoothly once he exited the Warp. The forces of Chaos were hot on his trail, but his loyal Space Wolves came to Russ' aid as they had done so in the past. With their help, he was able to deliver a seed from the Tree of Life to the Golden Throne on Holy Terra and the God-Emperor at long last had awaken. Through an excruciating yet short campaign, Russ and the Emperor had scourged the universe clean, killing Abaddon and the other initial forces of Chaos, confining the Orks to a single system, and uniting the Tau and Eldar under the Banner of Man. It was shortly after the destruction of the last great Tomb World that the psychic forces of Man and Eldar overwhelmed the hideous hiveminds of the tyrannids and turned the hivefleets into nothing but rotting hulks of biomass. That was when the all psykers, both man and xenos, had felt a shock in the Warp. A new force to be contested. Creation.
The initial parties sent to investigate were penal legions of the guard. Their reports came back positive, speaking of a place filled with humans untainted by the Warp. But the legions never came back nor were heard from again. By the time anyone suspected something serious was up, a full ten regiments of the guard had fallen to the enemy along with one chapter of the Space Marines. Russ took command of all the ships the Imperium could muster while the Tau and Eldar hunted down the last vestiges of the Necrons. Russ' wolfleet made it to Creation in no time, thanks to the sharing of the Webway, but that factor of surprise was not enough. Creation was waiting. So now it had come to this. "Exterminatus"
Russ turned away from the viewscreen after giving the order, which was to be his first and last mistake. Had he been watching, he might have seen a group of Solars, long since forewarned by the Sidereals, launch from the ground of Creation. He might have comprehended how these majestic beings, these Exalted, caught the missiles of the Exterminatus and use their own weight and momentum to cause them to pull a 180. He might have seen how the first missile struck the Wolftime's sister ships one by one. And he might have seen the missile bearing down on his bridge, ready to convey Russ to the actual Wolftime. But he did not, so the last thing he saw was not one of absolute beauty but of a ship's control room outlined by a blinding flash. So it goes.

GoC

2008-03-26, 11:05 PM

So if the solar tries to convince the space marine squad that the emperor is wrong, all he'll get in response is the chapter's librarian shouting off quotes from their book and loosing an hail of bullets.

Is this supported by the mechanics? I'll bet one chocolate cookie that someone can find an ability that says "any creature diplomanced by the solar can only be reconverted by another solar" or something to that effect.

ColdBrew+Poison_Fish+streakster=win!

EvilElitest: Don't join in, you'll wish you'd stayed away from this madness before too long. Stupid Exalted and it's non-existant logic...

Poor Rutee is probably going mad. I think I'm one of the few who read this entire thread and she's had to counter the same arguments at least five times.:smallbiggrin:

an kobold: You win this thread.

streakster

2008-03-26, 11:05 PM

Ho ha heee snort.

So apart from constantly replying with "No, U", and an entirely unwarranted sence of self-importance what do you have to offer this showdown between grimdark wargames and self-aggrandizing LARP?

Ho ha heee snort...

You didn't get what I meant there, did you?

According to the philosophy of perception, you cannot imagine a pink, invisible unicorn. Can't be done. No self-importance there, just needed a "You haven't to follow "ho ha heee snort..."

If you'll look back through this thread, you'll see what I have to offer - poor explanations, bad jokes, a bit of lip and occasionally, a good point.

Now you, sir. What do you have to offer this thread, apart from amusing me?

^^^@An-kobold: That rocked! I have got to do one of those for GWII vs somebody, just for fun.

Rutee

2008-03-26, 11:08 PM

Heehee. Cute, that is. A knock down drag out fight where Russ takes out like, a Talon of DBs before a showdown with a Solar mighta been cooler, but well written is well written. I tip my hat to ya.

Poor Rutee is probably going mad. I think I'm one of the few who read this entire thread and she's had to counter the same arguments at least five times.
I just wish the Thread wasn't tl;dr, really. It's not like, for the most part, people aren't understanding. It's just.. you know. New people coming in.

Forevergrey

2008-03-26, 11:09 PM

Ho ha heee snort...
NO U DONT GET IT, SNIGGERSNORT

NO, U DONT GET IT, SNIGGERSNORT.

Also, idort for missing the point of the invisible pink unicorn. You only have one recourse now, a barrel roll.

streakster

2008-03-26, 11:15 PM

NO, U DONT GET IT, SNIGGERSNORT.

Also, idort for missing the point of the invisible pink unicorn. You only have one recourse now, a barrel roll.

Ba-dum kish! (I'm bored. New sound effects.)

No, see, your example doesn't work there. A sword parrying a nuclear blast is conceivable. A pink, invisible unicorn is not - an object cannot have two simultaneously contradictory properties. Not even in fantasy or the imagination. Can't be done...

Wait, what am I doing?

NO, U DON"T GET IT, LOL!!1!
http://www.fivefourteen.net/motivational-posters/barrel%20roll%2001.jpg

Forevergrey

2008-03-26, 11:27 PM

Ba-dum kish! (I'm bored. New sound effects.)

No, see, your example doesn't work there. A sword parrying a nuclear blast is conceivable.

No.

A pink, invisible unicorn is not - an object cannot have two simultaneously contradictory properties. Not even in fantasy or the imagination. Can't be done...

Thats the point.

Wait, what am I doing?

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/1038/barrelrollnj9.gif

One of these.

MeklorIlavator

2008-03-26, 11:32 PM

Forevergery, would you admit that a wizard with force cage could in some manor deflect a nuclear bomb? What about a simple force wall? How about a guy who had been super-buffed simply slicing it into? Because from what I understand, the first two are what a wizard would do, the last is what an Exalted could do, and they might even be able to do it using the first two methods as well. Personally, I've never played the game, so could someone else confirm this.

Forevergrey

2008-03-26, 11:34 PM

streakster

2008-03-26, 11:35 PM

No.
Yes.

Here, picture it. Take one nuclear blast. 'K? Now, toss in a guy with a katana. Have the shockwave rush toward him, slow-mo style. Now, katana dude swings at the shockwave as it draws near him. Picture the shockwave reversing direction.

What have you got? A dude who just parried a nuclear blast.

By the way, what do mean, "That's the point"? A sword parrying a katana does not require two simultaneous contradictory properties.

Wait a minute - If I have to defend the realism of Exalted Parrying, you have to defend how an Ork's thinking his gun works makes it work.

__________________
It is Lupus.

Innis Cabal

2008-03-26, 11:39 PM

The point of the nuclear blast was proven, they dont want to admit it /shrug

Forevergrey

2008-03-26, 11:39 PM

Yes.

Here, picture it. Take one nuclear blast. 'K? Now, toss in a guy with a katana. Have the shockwave rush toward him, slow-mo style. Now, katana dude swings at the shockwave as it draws near him. Picture the shockwave reversing direction.

I recognise your game, sir.

I salute thee.

MeklorIlavator

2008-03-26, 11:40 PM

We're talking about the BLAST, not the warhead. Shooting down warheads pre-detonation is entirely possible.
Using DnD, a force cage or prismatic sphere could stop it. Heck, a wall of stone(dome shaped) could ,too. Who are you to say that something similar isn't happening in the world?

Edit: Also, why are you applying real-world-standards to a high fantasy/superpowered game? Its not like they've ever been known for being that concerned with reality(flying beast that are too large, magic in general, Falling damage caps, Hit point in general).

Forevergrey

2008-03-26, 11:50 PM

Using DnD, a force cage or prismatic sphere could stop it. Heck, a wall of stone(dome shaped) could ,too. Who are you to say that something similar isn't happening in the world?

Why are you applying real-world-standards to a high fantasy/superpowered game?

Innis Cabal

2008-03-26, 11:51 PM

Wonderful question! Why are you arguing about how a sword cant parry a nuclear holocaust

Rutee

2008-03-26, 11:54 PM

Edit: Also, why are you applying real-world-standards to a high fantasy/superpowered game? Its not like they've ever been known for being that concerned with reality(flying beast that are too large, magic in general, Falling damage caps, Hit point in general).

Because real life is a frame of reference we understand by default, I think. Can't be too sure though.

Forevergrey

2008-03-26, 11:58 PM

Wonderful question! Why are you arguing about how a sword cant parry a nuclear holocaust

I'm not. Are you?

Innis Cabal

2008-03-26, 11:59 PM

Not for or against no, im just here for the lolz, as the nerd rage just keeps going and going.

Skjaldbakka

2008-03-27, 03:52 AM

Wow, this thread is still going, after all this time? I've created a monster!

Monk threads don't even last this long . . .

Oslecamo

2008-03-27, 04:10 AM

Anyway, are you going to keep holding a ludicrously bad double standard up for morality, of all things, because that's the only vector you think you have a hope of shooting down the idea that Solars can accomplish tasks Perfectly? Because if so, I have no problems with leaving you up all alone on your pedestal, where only things that are Logical and Real are good fiction, and where you and you alone know the truth about how Humans should act. Because there's always going to be other people, and other things to do on the internet.

Ok, maybe claiming the Emperor was the perfect guy wasn't that good an idea.

If the matter is discussing who makes things more perfectly and not who is more perfect, then let's go.

Solars spend 99% of their energy just looking cool. Now, really, I read the rules, those guys automatically glow when they begin to fill on essence. And they glow hard. Their special attacks have more flashes than a rock festival. You realize the amount of energy wasted this way? If the solar spent all that energy into something usefull, then maybe they would acomplish tasks perfectly.

However, I refuse to believe that someone who wastes 99% of his power just looking cool during battle is doing tasks perfectly.

The wh40k universe however doesn't waste huge amounts of energy looking cool. They take a weapon, they aim and they shoot.

Or is this because of the "showing offf nets you more power" rule in Exalted? And who rules what looks cool or not? If there are only 2 players in the table, and one of them is the WH40k player, then the Exalted player will have trouble proving any of his deeds is really cool to get more essence and eventually run out of fuel.

tyckspoon

2008-03-27, 04:38 AM

Or is this because of the "showing offf nets you more power" rule in Exalted? And who rules what looks cool or not? If there are only 2 players in the table, and one of them is the WH40k player, then the Exalted player will have trouble proving any of his deeds is really cool to get more essence and eventually run out of fuel.

oh bloody 'eck. You're still on about this? Ok, fine. Apparently 40k players are pathologically incapable of operating in the Exalted idiom. (I know this isn't true, as I have played 40k and greatly enjoy the Exalted idiom, but it seems this is the kind of argument this thread is reduced to.) So while the 40k killjoy may drag down the Exalted dude, the Exalted dude is still going to win by at least trying to do it right for the situation. The 40k dude is just gonna get killed by the first couple Dragonblooded or even shamefully whacked by some mortals, just 'cause he doesn't know any better. Exalts win.

Skjaldbakka

2008-03-27, 05:05 AM

Solars spend 99% of their energy just looking cool. Now, really, I read the rules, those guys automatically glow when they begin to fill on essence. And they glow hard. Their special attacks have more flashes than a rock festival. You realize the amount of energy wasted this way? If the solar spent all that energy into something usefull, then maybe they would acomplish tasks perfectly.

Physics + Anime = divide by zero error. 0 Energy is 'wasted' by exalt glowing, both mechanically (glowing is a byproduct of energy expenditure, it doesn't 'cost extra'), and by the rules of anime. Glowing is just something powerful things do. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PowerGlows)

Poison_Fish

2008-03-27, 05:27 AM

Ok, maybe claiming the Emperor was the perfect guy wasn't that good an idea.

If the matter is discussing who makes things more perfectly and not who is more perfect, then let's go.

Solars spend 99% of their energy just looking cool. Now, really, I read the rules, those guys automatically glow when they begin to fill on essence. And they glow hard. Their special attacks have more flashes than a rock festival. You realize the amount of energy wasted this way? If the solar spent all that energy into something usefull, then maybe they would acomplish tasks perfectly.

However, I refuse to believe that someone who wastes 99% of his power just looking cool during battle is doing tasks perfectly.

The wh40k universe however doesn't waste huge amounts of energy looking cool. They take a weapon, they aim and they shoot.

Or is this because of the "showing offf nets you more power" rule in Exalted? And who rules what looks cool or not? If there are only 2 players in the table, and one of them is the WH40k player, then the Exalted player will have trouble proving any of his deeds is really cool to get more essence and eventually run out of fuel.

lololololololololololol, warships in 40k are "efficient" power usage what with their huge size that can't physically work lololololololololololololol.

Because in GRIMnDark, broadsides somehow make more sense then flat out battle with long range weaponry/missiles.

fail point is fail. It is also a point that the 40k verse is just as guilty of.

Learn to not apply physics. To either universe.

At this point Osley, your just grasping for straws.

Tengu

2008-03-27, 06:27 AM

There's one word I can use to describe this thread. Except that it's not a word, but an image. And you've all seen it before.

http://ffrpg.republika.pl/pyro-troll.JPG
Flamin' troll time, mon!

Oslecamo

2008-03-27, 07:01 AM

lololololololololololol, warships in 40k are "efficient" power usage what with their huge size that can't physically work lololololololololololololol.

Because in GRIMnDark, broadsides somehow make more sense then flat out battle with long range weaponry/missiles.

fail point is fail. It is also a point that the 40k verse is just as guilty of.

Learn to not apply physics. To either universe.

At this point Osley, your just grasping for straws.

They all fail. But exalted fails more. Ranged combat is pretty effecient in WH40k, and many players complain that charging focused armies are always at a disadvantage against ranged focused armies. Also many times it's more effecient to just get more troops than wasting points in shiny upgrades.

Compared to exalted, the wh40k rules are quite realistic.

I may be grasping for straws, but you aren't grasping for anything at all. Your only argument is that exalted wins because the rules say solars are too good to be killed by nonsolars, and then goes on explaining how exalteds got owned by nonsolars because they can't even stand alchool. You already defeated yourselves by admiting the exalted rules don't make sense in any kind of way and the only point of the game is look sil... eerrr "cool", as you like to call it. I'm just trying to make you realize this.

streakster

2008-03-27, 07:14 AM

Selrahc

2008-03-27, 07:23 AM

Someone could deflect a nuclear barrrage though. For instance, they could stand their with their shiny samurai sword, and have all the energy siphon down into the sword, until it glows a blinding white because of all the energy contained within it, and then slice, sending it all back in the other direction.

Or hold up their hands and the energy just stops, piling up next to the exalted, stopped by an invisible screen, which then deflects it right back at the firer.

Its magic. Not science fiction.

I just don't understand what you're trying to argue, since the entire concept of the game is that you do stuff that is beyond possibility.

You might think its stupid, or that the people who play it are immature(Which seems a bit presumptous if you've never played the game yourself), but that is kind of irrelevant, since the discussion is not on whether you like it, but on whether it would win against 40K in a fight.

WalkingTarget

2008-03-27, 08:40 AM

No new points here on mechanics or flavor for the games. Just bringing up the Invisible Pink Unicorn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_Pink_Unicorn) for people who didn't get the reference.

Rutee

2008-03-27, 09:31 AM

I may be grasping for straws, but you aren't grasping for anything at all. Your only argument is that exalted wins because the rules say solars are too good to be killed by nonsolars, and then goes on explaining how exalteds got owned by nonsolars because they can't even stand alchool. You already defeated yourselves by admiting the exalted rules don't make sense in any kind of way and the only point of the game is look sil... eerrr "cool", as you like to call it. I'm just trying to make you realize this.

Exalted are too powerful to die to ordinary humans or anything that's on a remotely similar playing field. Eldar are legitimate threats, and Space Marines should be too, in straight combat (Not /single/ combat, but combat). Except that neither of the above has really shown any immunity to conversion. And that's just by self destructive evil. Solars can and will promise a golden future for all, weave the concept of it into the minds of all present, and ask who could possibly deny this great future. And the 40k-verse will likely predominantly pledge fealty.

40k is just as realistic as Exalted. Rule of Cool is the only thing that keeps the Setting as anything more then a quickly dying human empire, while the laws of Thermodynamics, simple Logic, and vast space kills off all but the Farm and perhaps Resort world residents. "But Ranged Weapons are more efficient then melee!" Yeah, but your societies and your infrastructure wouldn't work, which isn't something that would hold true in most Exalted cultures.

Also, Commissars would be shot. By insubordinate troops. 2 days in the field, tops. Motivation by shooting /your/ people is pretty much the fastest way to die unless your troops were already loyal and obedient; But then they wouldn't need motivation by shooting people. Bolters would probably fall apart. Space Marines die in droves as their transplanted organs don't match blood type, notwithstanding the technobabble that is Gene-Seed. Orks stop working period (Well, their tech dies immediately; Their reproduction also, but the Orks themselves should work)

And, just to retort to your above point, no. Solars don't waste energy looking cool. Looking cool adds energy. "But a 40K player won't find it cool". True, somewhat, but satisfying you is by your definition impossible with Exalted; That's why you don't play it. (FYI: Cool, quiet efficiency can be cool too, and still earn stunt bonuses. It's all in the execution of it)

Edit: Come to think of it, without the RUle of Cool, Exalted still wins. It's just effectively Mythical Heroes/Gods vs. what's left of humanity, and not very representative of either setting.. Mythical Heroes/Gods didn't need the Rule of Cool to work the first time, no?

Poison_Fish

2008-03-27, 11:00 AM

They all fail. But exalted fails more. Ranged combat is pretty effecient in WH40k, and many players complain that charging focused armies are always at a disadvantage against ranged focused armies. Also many times it's more effecient to just get more troops than wasting points in shiny upgrades.

Compared to exalted, the wh40k rules are quite realistic.

I may be grasping for straws, but you aren't grasping for anything at all. Your only argument is that exalted wins because the rules say solars are too good to be killed by nonsolars, and then goes on explaining how exalteds got owned by nonsolars because they can't even stand alchool. You already defeated yourselves by admiting the exalted rules don't make sense in any kind of way and the only point of the game is look sil... eerrr "cool", as you like to call it. I'm just trying to make you realize this.

I never said they didn't make sense. I said they don't apply to real world logic. But nor does 40K. So, again, you don't even know what your saying about my argument. The essentials of my argument? It's that your argument fails. The rest is just explaining points about Exalted because I tend to have decent knowledge of both systems.

But wait, let's see where you made the biggest mistake because your not reading. Solars don't get killed by mortals or those of weak power. Then I went on to explain how solars got owned by other exalted(Not exalted killed by nonsolars) while drunk/distracted on several magnitudes greater then what most pleasures in many worlds can offer. You got it backwards mon!!

Again, where are the rules not making "sense"? Whatever "sense" you are using, it's too limited and stuck with in a single frame work that you clearly can't leave. Also, drop the noble Martyr act, it doesn't suit you. This is all just RAGE, RAGE, RAGE. Kind of like Bora, Bora, Bora, with less death and violence.

GoC

2008-03-27, 11:19 AM

Eldar are legitimate threats, and Space Marines should be too, in straight combat (Not /single/ combat, but combat).

Where are you getting the idea that Space Marines are legitimate threats?
All the have is a bit of extra endurance and strength. Someone linked to an interesting article on Space Marine creation that dispelled a lot of myths surrounding SMs.

Rutee

2008-03-27, 11:27 AM

an kobold

2008-03-27, 11:42 AM

Where are you getting the idea that Space Marines are legitimate threats?
All the have is a bit of extra endurance and strength. Someone linked to an interesting article on Space Marine creation that dispelled a lot of myths surrounding SMs.

In 40k fandom there is an acknowledgment that "fluff" marines, the ones written about in books who are capable of taking down entire regiments of the guard without breaking a sweat, are much better than those actually statted for the table top game. There was an attempt to stat the "movie marines," as they came to be called, and it was ludicrous. So really I guess it depends on which SMs you are talking about. Fluff marines could definitely dent solars, table top marines a little less likely.

GoC

2008-03-27, 12:21 PM

You'll have to link it, dear. SMs seem to be capable of denting Solars, at the least (Ordinary mortal troops like /the entire IG/ won't even manage /that/). Is the debunking reliant on straight Space Marine fluff?

'cause if I were to take a guess in the dark, a Games Workshop thing that makes Space Marines look bad will involve the Space Marines as antagonists or side characters while some other group is the main character. But that's just my guess.

Wouldn't perfect defense allow them to deflect bolter fire? Would slicing through 100 Space Marines with a massive dose of awesome recover essence? If so then the Solars are perfectly safe.

Link to SM creation. (http://uk.games-workshop.com/spacemarines/initiation/1/)

EDIT:
an kobold: Fluffy marines I'm afraid.:smallfrown:

Rutee

2008-03-27, 12:39 PM

an kobold

2008-03-27, 12:54 PM

EDIT:
an kobold: Fluffy marines I'm afraid.:smallfrown:

You know you're in trouble when you start getting tailgated by a guy with two of these hanging from his rear view mirror :smallamused: .

Talkkno

2008-03-27, 01:34 PM

In 40k fandom there is an acknowledgment that "fluff" marines, the ones written about in books who are capable of taking down entire regiments of the guard without breaking a sweat, are much better than those actually statted for the table top game. There was an attempt to stat the "movie marines," as they came to be called, and it was ludicrous. So really I guess it depends on which SMs you are talking about. Fluff marines could definitely dent solars, table top marines a little less likely.

"Give me a hundred Space Marines. Or failing that, give me a thousand other troops." - Rogal Dorn

:smallannoyed: Given this is a Primarch, a founder of the Imperial fists space marine chapter, I'm pretty sure he knows what he is talking about when dealing the capabilities of space marines. Space Marines are pretty good, but I would not bet on them against a entire Imperial Guard regiment.

MeklorIlavator

2008-03-27, 01:41 PM

Talkkno

2008-03-27, 01:44 PM

This is what I was trying to say in my posts.

Or a no limits fallacy:smallannoyed:

streakster

2008-03-27, 01:47 PM

Or a no limits fallacy:smallannoyed:

Mind putting that fallacy up here for us?

Rutee

2008-03-27, 01:48 PM

"Give me a hundred Space Marines. Or failing that, give me a thousand other troops." - Rogal Dorn

:smallannoyed: Given this is a Primarch, a founder of the Imperial fists space marine chapter, I'm pretty sure he knows what he is talking about when dealing the capabilities of space marines. Space Marines are pretty good, but I would not bet on them against a entire Imperial Guard regiment.

....Um. Let's look at what Rogal Dorn is saying.

"I will take 100 Space Marines first. If you can not provide for me that, I would like 1000 other troops". He would prefer Space Marines to 10 to 1 on ordinary mortals.

Or a no limits fallacy
It's not a Fallacy when dealing with the Exalted of the First Age.

Talkkno

2008-03-27, 01:51 PM

Mind putting that fallacy up here for us?

Suffice to say, I believe we should only go by the highest end feats Solars are capable of in fluff rather just mere game mechanics.

Rutee

2008-03-27, 01:59 PM

Suffice to say, I believe we should only go by the highest end feats Solars are capable of in fluff rather just mere game mechanics.
We are, quite frankly. First Age Solars can do pretty much anything they want.

Talkkno

2008-03-27, 02:04 PM

....Um. Let's look at what Rogal Dorn is saying.

"I will take 100 Space Marines first. If you can not provide for me that, I would like 1000 other troops". He would prefer Space Marines to 10 to 1 on ordinary mortals.

The novel Crimson Tears pg 91
"The second company, a flexible battle-company with a hundred Marines and enough firepower and expertise to equal ten times that number of Guardsmen, represented a enormous slice of the Chapter's fighting strength."

streakster

2008-03-27, 02:06 PM

The novel Crimson Tears pg 91
"The second company, a flexible battle-company with a hundred Marines and enough firepower and expertise to equal ten times that number of Guardsmen, represented a enormous slice of the Chapter's fighting strength."

That's ... what Rutee said. A space marine is about ten times as formidable as an ordinary man. Are you agreeing, here, or what?

Talkkno

2008-03-27, 02:29 PM

That's ... what Rutee said. A space marine is about ten times as formidable as an ordinary man. Are you agreeing, here, or what?
Yes I do agree, making them quite formiddable, but single handlidly taking on thousands of men? No.

Rutee

2008-03-27, 02:35 PM

tyckspoon

2008-03-27, 02:48 PM

Gao....

Moving onto the relevant stuffs, is the whole of a group of Marines greater then the sum of its parts, in a greater way then normal in some way? That is, teamwork and cooperation always leads to greater efficiency, but is it /more/ true for the Space Marines then it is for well, normal 40k troops?

Only as much as they benefit from superior teamwork and cooperation thanks to greater dedication to a more intense training regime. They're not generating gestalt psychic fields or anything (that's the Grey Knights.) I suppose, in Exalted terms, that you might say the Imperial Guard are simply all attacking the same target while the Marines are using a (probably low level) charm to coordinate themselvse.

And can a Primarch take on thousands of men alone? I've been viewing them as roughly equivalent to an elder or First Age Solar, who can pretty much take on any arbitrarily high number of mortals at no risk, and I'd like to think the comparison was apt.

It depends a little bit on which Primarch, but generally yes, at least in the fluff. They're usually written as capable of competing with the Emperor in their own specialty areas and are otherwise generally.. what's the phrasing.. 'as far above a Space Marine as a Space Marine is above a normal man.' I assume that's meant in some multiplicative or exponential growth, too. Straight addition wouldn't be very impressive.

Oslecamo

2008-03-27, 02:51 PM

Everybody in WH40K likes to have numbers on his side.

From a game point of view, units start to get their moral shaken when they lose 25% of their original force, and from then they start to need making checks or run away like sissies. So the more troops you get in a squad the less moral checks you'll hopefully need to do.

Also, in melee combat, if you outnumber your oponent by a certain degree you get some bonuses.

The space marines, however, have such good moral you can afford to take several small squads instead of only some big. This way you get more mobility and also more heavy weapons(each squad can only carry a very limited number of heavy weapons).

So, the space marines actually like fighting alone more than the other factions.

In the fluff, there are several stories of lone SM comanders holding the line by themselves against overwhelming odds.

Talkkno

2008-03-27, 03:15 PM

'as far above a Space Marine as a Space Marine is above a normal man.' I assume that's meant in some multiplicative or exponential growth, too. Straight addition wouldn't be very impressive.

Actually thats referring to the Adeptus Custodes, the Emperor's bodyguards. Though I remember a Primarch one time took down a Avatar of Khaine almost bare handed and later beat a Eldar Wraithlord(Sp?)....take it for what you will. I'll dig up the source....*Goes digging*

GoC

2008-03-27, 04:07 PM

I was thinking more "In a company of space marines, 2 of them might actually manage to break past FfBS and FLB, and might actually manage to deal damage past the vast amount of soak present"

Edit: This doesn't seem to dispel their capabilities, just explain the creation process.

Their "capabilities" at the time that page was first linked to amounted to Space Marines tearing tanks in half with their bare fists, regenerating faster than wolverine on crack (being able to stick their arms back on in battle), able to withstand numerous rounds of bolter fire (each round described as being the equivalent of an anti-tank missile) and being immune to regular bullets. These were the myths that were dispelled. They're only a bit stronger than Olympic weightlifters, they take time to recover from injuries, bolters aren't that impressive and they'll still die to a rifle bullet in the head or one in each heart.

SMs are the rough equivalent of Captain America (they are better at some things but worse at others) and specialize in being resistant to piercing damage compared to the captain's impact resistance.

Could you answer this:

Wouldn't perfect defense allow them to deflect bolter fire? Would slicing through 100 Space Marines with a massive dose of awesome recover essence?

I've been looking at the numbers for warhammer and I agree that it's refreshing to look at something people actually put some thought in. There are still a few oddities though. The size of the ships for instance.
Assuming a population of 120 trillion the IoM has 20,000 times the population of Earth. The volume of every piece of military hardware on Earth amounts to about 10,000,000 cubic meters (not counting support units). Given it's massive number of frontier colonies and grim and gritty feel it is probably about as industrialized as modern earth. This would give 200,000,000,000 cubic meters of military equipment.
What about technology? Well the IoM has been decadent for several thousand years and isn't very industrialized (efficiency and creativity aren't highly prized), this combined with it's grim-and-gritty feel might give it double the military per head due to industrialization, another doubling due to better manufacturing techniques and quartering due to lack of efficiency (these numbers got pulled out of nowhere). This gives enough for only 6 of their 10km long battleships! Yet the imperium is described as having thousands!

/end weird nerdy stuff

LordVader

2008-03-27, 04:18 PM

This is kinda beside the point, as we've clearly established the victor here, Exalted being way too ridiculous to fight; but I don't think a space marine in power armor is "barely" stronger than an olympic weightlifter.

Oslecamo

2008-03-27, 04:27 PM

I've been looking at the numbers for warhammer and I agree that it's refreshing to look at something people actually put some thought in. There are still a few oddities though. The size of the ships for instance.
Assuming a population of 120 trillion the IoM has 20,000 times the population of Earth. The volume of every piece of military hardware on Earth amounts to about 10,000,000 cubic meters (not counting support units). Given it's massive number of frontier colonies and grim and gritty feel it is probably about as industrialized as modern earth. This would give 200,000,000,000 cubic meters of military equipment.
What about technology? Well the IoM has been decadent for several thousand years and isn't very industrialized (efficiency and creativity aren't highly prized), this combined with it's grim-and-gritty feel might give it double the military per head due to industrialization, another doubling due to better manufacturing techniques and quartering due to lack of efficiency (these numbers got pulled out of nowhere). This gives enough for only 6 of their 10km long battleships! Yet the imperium is described as having thousands!

/end weird nerdy stuff

You're forgeting the age of strife, where humanity was at the peack of his technology, and from what little is known.

A good part of the high technology currently used by the EoM comes from that age, ancient machnes digged out of ruins.

Bolters, power armor, predators, those are all things that if not destroyed last for milleniums, something we can't say about our current technlogy.

And since we're in the year 40 000 then a lot of stuff has been built, waiting for the techpriests to put their hands on them and figure out how they can be used.

LordVader

2008-03-27, 04:33 PM

Proof that a marine in power armor is stronger than an olympic weightlifter:

A Marine in power armor can dent and break power armor with his punches. An Olympic weightlifter certainly cannot. Thus, logically, power armor DOES make Marines much, much stronger than just heavily-muscled guys.

Also, while they can't rip a tank in half, they certainly can rip a hatch or door off of that tank.

nothingclever

2008-03-27, 04:34 PM

One time I killed a vile avatar of Gathaldazar with my bare hands and made soup too hot for me to drink and a rock too heavy to lift despite being omnipotent.
Could I beat exalted?

LordVader

2008-03-27, 04:38 PM

Also, GoC, your calculations are wrong. I'm pretty sure the Imperium would have more than 120 trillion citizens, no? Hive worlds alone can have something upwards of 100 billion citizens, and there are hundreds, if not thousands, of those. Add that in to the million or so other worlds (at least) and that runs to a bit over 120 trillion, IMO.

Fluff Marines are indeed beasts, and could easily shred more than 10 guardsmen at a time, but Exalted is simply ridiculous magic. If you make a game that is a bit satirical ("Cool" sessions) even a patently ridiculous sci-fi background like the Imperium can't do anything.

I am curious as to how a being on the planet's surface can take a hit for the sun when its attackers are millions and millions and millions of miles away, though.:smallconfused:

Innis Cabal

2008-03-27, 04:45 PM

It's magic of course.

Talkkno

2008-03-27, 04:47 PM

Their "capabilities" at the time that page was first linked to amounted to Space Marines tearing tanks in half with their bare fists, regenerating faster than wolverine on crack (being able to stick their arms back on in battle), able to withstand numerous rounds of bolter fire (each round described as being the equivalent of an anti-tank missile) and being immune to regular bullets. These were the myths that were dispelled. They're only a bit stronger than Olympic weightlifters, they take time to recover from injuries, bolters aren't that impressive and they'll still die to a rifle bullet in the head or one in each heart.

What are you smoking? Have you ever read a novel with Space Marines in it? Space Marines can easily go toe to toe with Orks, with can have there heads chopped off and there bodies will still fight back, and if you attach them back before an hour they come out brandspanking new. They can take shotguns that can rip your torso in half and lasguns that can easily shear off a limb instantly. Go over their list of geneseed, because first of all, they have two hearts and if you take out one they can still fight, not to meation there skull and chest plate are immune to modern day fire arms. Bolters fire .75 calibre rocket-propelled rounds. In the Crimson Tears, a Imperial Guard officer suggested that they use a autocannon to level a building where the Soul Drinkers tradtior legion was holed up in, and a Crimson Fist dismiss that it would only merely give them cover to fight in. In the novel Grey Knights, a few Grey Knights in a small transport manage to get pass a kilometer long carrier and battleship, land on the planet trudge on a open field against a Imperial Guard fortifications, get down to the trenches and take down a few Sisters of Battle, and while managing to prevent a Greater Demon from manifesting fully.
You undercut the Space Marines.

Rutee

2008-03-27, 04:49 PM

He's not millions of miles away. Remember, the cosmology of medieval europe is more or less /true/ here. The Sun's pretty close, especially when you look at Real Life distances. That and Athletics Charms, where you can reach flatly ludicrous speeds that would pancake you.

That and nobody needs to take a hit for the Sun. He's got his own Perfects.

LordVader

2008-03-27, 05:06 PM

However, the sun cannot be too close, as it would incinerate the surface of the planet, magic or no magic.

Poison_Fish

2008-03-27, 05:07 PM

Or how about athletics charms to get to the moon, then write your name on it for everyone to see?

Granted, that makes Luna unhappy.

Or in the sun's case, not only does he have his own perfects, but he's kind of the solar's big daddy.

Rutee

2008-03-27, 05:09 PM

Only if the UCS' Sunlight gives off Heat. Solars burn with the UCS' Light when their Anima goes totemic; They don't destroy the nearby landscape from heat or set everything on fire at Totemic Anima. We can surmise that the UCS' sunlight does not generate heat.

Remember, check your physics at the door in this thread. WH40k doesn't care about them either :P

LordVader

2008-03-27, 05:10 PM

My point is, it's doubtful they'll know the Necrons, in this case, are coming.

@ Talkkno- No, they can't regrow heads, but GoC does indeed shortchange them. Space Marines are far stronger than olympic weightlifters, and a hundred times as tough.

Bolters are also absolutely amazing personal firearms. They're essentially a miniaturized rocket launcher, capable of shredding almost any kind of infantry and most light vehicles.

Also, you're wrong; WH40K cares a damn sight more about physics than Exalted. Most of its weaponry is projectile-based.

Rutee

2008-03-27, 05:16 PM

Well.. going off Games Workshop's site, he was not undercutting them as much as either of you might prefer.

Also, you're wrong; WH40K cares a damn sight more about physics than Exalted. Most of its weaponry is projectile-based.
Forge Worlds, Hive Worlds. Your /weaponry/ may care, but your /infrastructure/ sure as hell does not.

Poison_Fish

2008-03-27, 05:19 PM

My point is, it's doubtful they'll know the Necrons, in this case, are coming.

Also, you're wrong; WH40K cares a damn sight more about physics than Exalted. Most of its weaponry is projectile-based.

"Knowing" is pretty easily covered by the siderals of Exalted. The so called masters of fate.

Also, a bow and arrow is projectile based too. So, caring more about physics doesn't really measure up to much.

LordVader

2008-03-27, 05:31 PM

Well.. going off Games Workshop's site, he was not undercutting them as much as either of you might prefer.

*sigh*

I've read several Horus Heresy books, several Ultramarines novels, many space marine short stories, and the Space Wolves books, all canon. Trust me, he's undercutting them. The GW website doesn't even describe them well at all, merely as "superhuman warriors."

Also, forge worlds may be slightly impossible, hives more so (they are just giant buildings,after all) but I'd argue that they're not as physics-implausible as a humanoid being taking a lance strike effortlessly. The whole "Rule of Cool" utterly annihilates any pretence of physics.

Plus, magic-based realms have inherently less physics than sci-fi or modern realms because of the nature of magic. Sci-fi is rooted in physics; magic is not.

streakster

2008-03-27, 05:32 PM

You do realize, don't you, that saying that 40K cares more about physics because it uses projectile weapons is patently false? Swords, axes, and all other non-magical weapons use physics too. Heck, bows and arrows are projectile weapons. If we switch all the Exalted over to bows, can we be physics-based too?

Besides, do you roll to simulate wind deflection, and to what decimal point? What formulas do you use to calculate the arc of your shot, and are you certain to add in the changing gravity from world to world? How do you measure the deformation of your gun due to stress, and how do you factor this in to your shot calculations?

Feh. You have a whole side whose weapons work solely because they say they will. You kicked physics to the curb a long time ago, pal.

*sigh*

I've read several Horus Heresy books, several Ultramarines novels, many space marine short stories, and the Space Wolves books, all canon. Trust me, he's undercutting them. The GW website doesn't even describe them well at all, merely as "superhuman warriors."

Sigh. You know what? They can all fly, juggle tanks, and shoot laser beams from their armpits. They've got nuclear swordchuck katanas, and were trained by Chuck Norris.

It's an ant versus a brontosaur. You can make the most awesome ant ever. It won't help.

LordVader

2008-03-27, 05:36 PM

YPU

2008-03-27, 05:36 PM

You know, I still wonder how the gene adoption things would work out. What if a kroot or a tyranid would eat any of the exalted, or perhaps even better, one of the exalted gods.

an kobold

2008-03-27, 05:37 PM

they'll still die to a rifle bullet in the head

A heretic has noticed no one in the high command wears a helmet! Quick, pass out the shark heads!

You know, I still wonder how the gene adoption things would work out. What if a kroot or a tyranid would eat any of the exalted, or perhaps even better, one of the exalted gods.

Facepalm.jpeg at myself. I need to pay more attention to my avie.

That being said, let the OM NOM NOMMING commence!

LordVader

2008-03-27, 05:37 PM

If the Tyranids got their genes, that'd be.....interesting, but I don't think it could ever happen.

Still, epic lulz would ensue.

Rutee

2008-03-27, 05:38 PM

Also, forge worlds may be slightly impossible, hives more so (they are just giant buildings,after all) but I'd argue that they're not as physics-implausible as a humanoid being taking a lance strike effortlessly. The whole "Rule of Cool" utterly annihilates any pretence of physics.
The Laws of Thermodynamics would like to speak to your Large Building.

Without any knowledge of physics, they both look as realistic as each other (Because there's very little understanding of how powerful a Lance Strike is).

With knowledge of physics, they both end up pretty absurd. And you don't want to bring in other sciences that would invalidate the rest :P

Also, I just realized I've heard 4 different and contradictory versions of what a Bolter is. I'm going to go check Dark Heresy now.

Getting the Genes of an Exalted is pointless. Poison Fish covered that. You clone an Exalted, you get a Mortal. A pretty good Mortal (Only the talented and driven can get a Shard of the UCS' soul) but a Mortal just the same.

streakster

2008-03-27, 05:39 PM

I never, ever, ever use in-game statistics from a RTS or TTWG to do a "versus" argument. At best, it provides a rough guideline but 40k TT rules do not adhere to the fluff. I use pretty much fluff only for 40k; of course you don't roll for wind deflection on shots, it's a wargame, not an RPG. I'm talking about fluff here.

The fact remains that 40k as a whole cares more about physics. Even the strongest 40k psykers can't even begin to match some of the stuff the most powerful Exalted beings can apparently do. 40k psykers can't land on a sun, can't fly through space, can't take lance strikes.

If you are not doing those things, then you care no more about physics than Exalted. Your bullets move in perfectly straight lines? Really? How?

The scale of how badly you violate physics doesn't matter. You've already killed it, and it doesn't help to pretty up the corpse.

YPU

2008-03-27, 05:49 PM

The Laws of Thermodynamics would like to speak to your Large Building.

First of all, I am not going to say we have science thus we rule, that’s not going to work.
But on a note NOT intented for that argument. i am pretty sure that necromunda, the game of hive city gang battles decrices that there are many devices in place to keep the hive cities running as they should. I think I even remember scenario’s for places where these devices shut down and thus its either very hot or very cold depending on the location. I suppose its kind of like the matrix, “you see those machines, we don’t know exactly what they do, but they keep us alive”

Yes, I realized that the axalathion wouldn’t carry over. The god gene however very well could, given that there are quite a few half gods.

Rutee

2008-03-27, 05:53 PM

Apologies, but HEAT DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY. GOOD NIGHT

Gods could be interesting, and theoretically usable. The question is "Is it the /act/ of sleeping with a mortal that impregnates them?" I seem to recall needing a specific Charm to do it, which may mean that the child is created by Magic, rather then any genetic process we recognize (THe upshot of this is, every God is in effect composed entirely of Magic, so I'm not sure if they have genes to steal)

an kobold

2008-03-27, 05:53 PM

Getting the Genes of an Exalted is pointless. Poison Fish covered that. You clone an Exalted, you get a Mortal. A pretty good Mortal (Only the talented and driven can get a Shard of the UCS' soul) but a Mortal just the same.

Shhh. . .I want mah kroot solars and gods. If not for the logic, then for the lulz.

Actually, only a hypothetical situation, if the two verses collided as described in this thread, would the gods still be limited from choosing amongst mortals from Creation?

A another similar tangent, could a Dragonblooded pass down his shard to a kroot or 'nid who just so happened to share genetic material of the Dragonblooded's child? Note that the state of the child is not in question here, as if the om nom nomming does not fit, then you must acquit.

streakster

2008-03-27, 05:53 PM

First of all, I am not going to say we have science thus we rule, that’s not going to work.
But on a note NOT intented for that argument. i am pretty sure that necromunda, the game of hive city gang battles decrices that there are many devices in place to keep the hive cities running as they should. I think I even remember scenario’s for places where these devices shut down and thus its either very hot or very cold depending on the location. I suppose its kind of like the matrix, “you see those machines, we don’t know exactly what they do, but they keep us alive”

Yes, I realized that the axalathion wouldn’t carry over. The god gene however very well could, given that there are quite a few half gods.

Ah, I see. A widget did it.

YPU

2008-03-27, 06:05 PM

Apologies, but HEAT DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY. GOOD NIGHT

True, but who knows what sort of super powered AC the 40K humans once were able to build, its unknown to anybody how they work. The imperium is quite incapable of fixing them actually.
And also, if we are going to say heat does not work that way, then how about that sun that does not burn everything, how in the names of the gods does the world function then? Of course the gods take care of it. but now we have a point here, the imperial have their own god of machines perhaps he makes this whole AC on speed thing work. But its all just digging to deep into something not work breaking a sweat over anyway. And I still agree exalted wins. I mean, the 40k universe is made to look gritty and desperate while the exalted are designed to be made of win.

Gods could be interesting, and theoretically usable. The question is "Is it the /act/ of sleeping with a mortal that impregnates them?" I seem to recall needing a specific Charm to do it, which may mean that the child is created by Magic, rather then any genetic process we recognize (THe upshot of this is, every God is in effect composed entirely of Magic, so I'm not sure if they have genes to steal)

Also remember that magic is quite true in 40K tough in a somewhat different form, so perhaps they would actually assimilate the gods power into their own hive power, now that would be scary. And a exalted kroot for the win. Hey, if there are exalted going to die, and I suppose a few will. Then other will take their place and who knows on what side the next person in line will be on.

Poison_Fish

2008-03-27, 06:08 PM

All complaints about Exaltation can be directed to Lytek. 555555 Nutty Professor Street, Yu-Shan. zip: over 9000.

Rutee

2008-03-27, 06:10 PM

Shhh. . .I want mah kroot solars and gods. If not for the logic, then for the lulz.

Actually, only a hypothetical situation, if the two verses collided as described in this thread, would the gods still be limited from choosing amongst mortals from Creation?

A another similar tangent, could a Dragonblooded pass down his shard to a kroot or 'nid who just so happened to share genetic material of the Dragonblooded's child? Note that the state of the child is not in question here, as if the om nom nomming does not fit, then you must acquit.
Lytek could theoretically chuck Celestial Soul Shards at Space Marines yes. The trick comes with Eldar or Orks, I think. I don't think you can use non-humans as templates for the Soul Shards, in general (Though the Ebon Dragon is doing /something/ freaky with his stolen Soul Shards.. but it's taking him a while.

Dragonblooded, my bad, are definitely stealable. I completely forgot about them. I was thinking about Gods. That /should/ Amp Up and Elementify somewhat the Kroot/Nid in question, I /think/.

[quote]True, but who knows what sort of super powered AC the 40K humans once were able to build, its unknown to anybody how they work. The imperium is quite incapable of fixing them actually.
And also, if we are going to say heat does not work that way, then how about that sun that does not burn everything, how in the names of the gods does the world function then? Of course the gods take care of it. but now we have a point here, the imperial have their own god of machines perhaps he makes this whole AC on speed thing work. But its all just digging to deep into something not work breaking a sweat over anyway. And I still agree exalted wins. I mean, the 40k universe is made to look gritty and desperate while the exalted are designed to be made of win./quote]
I would have to level a claim that Exalted worked on RL physics to feel the two comparable in the least. But no, if WH40k functioned on anything remotely resembling physics, it Forge and Hive Worlds would sizzle (AC works by shunting heat. Problem with that being that the heat has to go SOMEWHERE, and you run out of acceptable targets if you make the World All or even Mostly city. Particularly with the level of pollution we can expect adding more to greenhouse gases and causing more light/heat to get trapped.

WH40k, however, doesn't function on physics. It functions on the Rule of Cool as well, for a different value of Cool.

Poison_Fish

2008-03-27, 06:13 PM

So, not only does your Imperial Guard squad gets charged by Kroot. They get charged by Kroot who are on fire. That makes Kroot immune to ninja's as well.

YPU

2008-03-27, 06:14 PM

*Takes a quick glance at the blue skinned winged kroot standing on his desk* if I’m going to do this in any exalted games I am going to run its you guys fault, you have created a monster!

Oslecamo

2008-03-27, 06:27 PM

And then we'll have threads discussing how overpowered Exalted kroots squads are.

an kobold

2008-03-27, 06:32 PM

This Just as planned moment has been brought to you in part by Tzeench, a subsidiary of the Chaos Gods, the will of the Shapers, and posters like you.

GoC

2008-03-27, 06:33 PM

You're forgeting the age of strife, where humanity was at the peack of his technology, and from what little is known.

Ah, good point.

Proof that a marine in power armor is stronger than an olympic weightlifter:

I meant without power armor.:smallredface:
But when without power armor they only have the Biscopea which is essentially steroids ("stimulates muscle growth").

Also, GoC, your calculations are wrong. I'm pretty sure the Imperium would have more than 120 trillion citizens, no? Hive worlds alone can have something upwards of 100 billion citizens, and there are hundreds, if not thousands, of those. Add that in to the million or so other worlds (at least) and that runs to a bit over 120 trillion, IMO.
Wikipedia said trillions of citizens. This normally means 1-10 trillion but as that number was too low I guessed higher.
I just assumed that of the few million solar systems it has most are just minor colonies (seems sensible) of a few hundred thousand people. I guessed (and yes it's mostly guesses:smallredface: ) correctly that the largest worlds would have 100 billion or so inhabitants. I then assumed there'd only be a hundred or so of these and that 1/10th of the population lives in these metropolises (seemed about right). I then looked for a number that'd divide nicely and found 120 trillion.
What are your guesstimates?

Bolters are also absolutely amazing personal firearms. They're essentially a miniaturized rocket launcher, capable of shredding almost any kind of infantry and most light vehicles.
On wikipedia there's information about the bolter. It says that the bolter is a gun whose bullets are rocket propelled and make an explosion on hitting. It's nowhere near the equivalent of an anti-tank missile.

I admit, recalling the disillusionment I felt when I first read that article and found they didn't live up to the hype might be clouding my judgment. They're still just lots of Captain Americas in power-armor (not exactly Iron Man level at that either). Without their armor Deathstroke (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deathstroke_the_Terminator) would kill them.

What are you smoking? Have you ever read a novel with Space Marines in it? Space Marines can easily go toe to toe with Orks, with can have there heads chopped off and there bodies will still fight back, and if you attach them back before an hour they come out brandspanking new. They can take shotguns that can rip your torso in half and lasguns that can easily shear off a limb instantly.
That isn't in their listed abilities at the official site (the link I posted).

Go over their list of geneseed, because first of all, they have two hearts and if you take out one they can still fight, not to meation there skull and chest plate are immune to modern day fire arms.
1. I said bullet to both hearts didn't I?
2. Where are you getting the idea that their bones are immune to modern day firearms? Modern day firearms can go straight through several inches of hardened steel.

Bolters fire .75 calibre rocket-propelled rounds. In the Crimson Tears, a Imperial Guard officer suggested that they use a autocannon to level a building where the Soul Drinkers tradtior legion was holed up in, and a Crimson Fist dismiss that it would only merely give them cover to fight in. In the novel Grey Knights, a few Grey Knights in a small transport manage to get pass a kilometer long carrier and battleship, land on the planet trudge on a open field against a Imperial Guard fortifications, get down to the trenches and take down a few Sisters of Battle, and while managing to prevent a Greater Demon from manifesting fully.
You undercut the Space Marines.
Looks like Warhammer also uses Rule of Cool to a small degree.:smallamused:

You're being a bit unpleasant. I know this is the most uncivilized thread on the entire playground but could you please play nice?

So. Many. Quotes.:smalleek:

Rutee

2008-03-27, 06:38 PM

Actually, the first 6 pages or so of thread were civil, GoC. Not sure about now..

Oslecamo

2008-03-27, 06:47 PM

Like someone else said, whoever wins we lose.

LordVader

2008-03-27, 06:48 PM

Marines without power armor is pointless, as no marine will ever go into combat without his power armor. Without it, they're weaker, but it's a moot point as they will never, ever be without it.
Wh40k uses "rule of cool" for suspending disbelief in some cases, but they don't base the entire game around it, which is where these two systems differ.

Also, if a .50 cal MG can shred a light vehicle or airplane, imagine what a .75 cal weapon that rapidfires explosive shells could do. :smallbiggrin:

And trust me, if you read some of the fluff, they will perform as expected, and you won't be let down. Even the Space Wolf books, which I believe under-rate them, have them doing crazy stuff. :smallamused:
The main thing to remember about Marines is, they are not supposed to go head-to-head with the Imperium's enemies. That's the Guard's job. The Marines are like Delta Force; surgical strikes to cripple the enemy, and at that, they are unmatched. :smallcool:

Terraoblivion

2008-03-27, 06:50 PM

Some of the older threads about fourth edition D&D might be as uncivilized, GoC. Among active threads this is the most uncivilized i guess. At least after it was resurrected.

Chaplain Aretas

2008-03-27, 07:36 PM

I hath read through a terrifyingly undermining thought by another stating that "Even Warhammer 40k has a Rule of Cool" just startles my divine skins. The Rule of Cool does not truly exist except in APOCAYLYPSE GAMES, in which you have to make a set of fair "Play as" rules from a customized model, but attached to pre-existing rules or a fairly agreed upon roolset on a "Datasheet."

Now, I do quote from the Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook that explains THE MOST IMPORTANT RULE [EVER].

"THE most important rule about playing games of Warhammer 40,000 is to have fun! Now while having fun my often be gained by mercilessly crushing your opponent's forces [([raping] i said what what in the butt)], never [EVER] forget that you are both there to have fun. Whenever you play a game, you and your opponent are basically agreeing to duel according to a set of fairly abstract rules, with a theoretical ground scale, using representative forces and a thousand other subtle agreements that go together to make it work.

The battle itself is a shared experience and great entertainment for both sides if they are both willing to make it so. No one particularly enjoys palying a game with someone who is overwrought, irascible and generally mean, or who only plays to win at all costs[Solars]. That kind of player soon has difficulty finding opponents because they simply arent much fun to game against. So the most important rule is to play nice and treat your opponent with the respect you would wish to get back from them so that you both have an enjoyable and exciting game. If you can do that and mercilessly crush their forces at the same time, then you really are a winner."

So essentially, the "rule of cool" being that if you say it in a cool way it becomes real is just a huck of crap and you know it. The only thing you've done this entire thread is use the same charms over and over again, when charms are only supposed to upgrade your powers a little. The idea of having a "rule of cool" in 40k only applies to my weaboo friend, Cam. If I say my marines carry an assaut cannon when they aren't event terminators and I say it's because they have advanced stabilizers he'd be like "****ing awesome!!!" and therefore I would rape his ass over board because Marines get a boost that his forces don't.

The Warhammer 40,000 "Rule of Cool" as I said, only applies to Apocalypse games which have a large enough battlefield to actually wield a god if you want. Unfortunately you would still lose the game, because playing the game and winning requires holding objectives. While you take a single objective with a single Solar, the other team just ignores you and captures the other 4 points and wins because it would be pointless to fight you. However, if you used the following profile for a Solar, that would be fine:

[[Solar 10,000pts
Monstrous Creature
ws: 10 bs: 10 St: 10 W: 7 I:10 A: 10 Ld: 9 Sv: 2+/2+

Special Rules
Charm: Blooming Spring Dance: Your character uses grace to dance like a wee fairy and attempts to control an enemy unit's mind by eluding them with such a beautiful grace. Any one squad or model within line of sight must take a morale test, or they must retreat in the direction of the Solar Player's choosing on a 2d6 Roll. Note that you cannot force them off the board since they are still willing participants in the fight once their daze is over.

Charm: Apocalyptic Thunder Wrath: Bolts of ethereal and sometimes unorthodox projectiles fall from the skies upon the enemies. Count this as an Apocalyptic Barrage on any model or unit within line of sight. Only one marker can be placed at any given time, once per Player Turn.

Charm: Graceful Parry: Attacks made at the Solar are deflected (or in some cases attempted to be deflected) and blasts them away herocically. Sometimes however a ****-ton of blasts may come from all directions and would even wound Cthullu on a bad day. Treat any attack being able to be deflected causing no damage to either the Solar or enemy models on a 2+ roll.]]

Before you spout out the "But this charm does blah blah blah you lose" note that it is a general profile that would be used in Warhammer 40,000. If you can't agree upon that, there will be no battle, no comparison, and no reason why this thread should be anything but banned already for it's pathetic excuse for a reason to flame bitch and moan. I don't care the Emperor is only an Alpha Level, HE'S THE MOTHER ****ING EMPEROR OF MAN-****ING-KIND. He's practically a future version of Jesus, and we all know how impossible it is to get rid of Jesus lovers, even though like the Emperor[SPOILER] he doesnt exist.

Now it's been discussed eons ago that any thread constituting a comparison between two impossible universes is pathetic, and anyone that really, REALLY fights it is a complete dork. A whales penis. I'm not even going to defend myself upon this. It's my duty to my false emperor that I need to point out that you're all just a bunch of Nerds, Neckbeards, airheads, god-moders, and so forth. I don't mind a good discussion of why you like Exalted better than 40k and the vice versa and I respect your opinions. However, when you take any two universes into a comparison which whether one is BETTER, you officially lose the game.

Good day.

Iethloc

2008-03-27, 10:05 PM

This thread was supposed to be Warhammer 40K vs Exalted, not Warhammer fans vs Exalted fans. Ad hominem certainly won't help a marine defeat a solar, or vice versa. And whether players of either game are playing for fun or for winning, it is completely irrelevant to this thread.

As for the rule of cool, why would we not want to have it? The stunt system is a wonderful addition, and definitely is better than "I attack the Solar" "He defends."

And why would a single Solar fight a GROUP of Marines if they battlefield was based upon holding objectives? That is an absurd scenario, and does little to showcase either of their strengths. Aside from perhaps the ability for marines to work together (not very impressive in this case, since they're fighting only one enemy), or for a solar to move very, very fast.

And the reason we're bringing up the same charms over and over is that the charm was not countered earlier on, and that the same counter is probably being used over and over. You know what? How about I introduce a different charm, one that I have not introduced before?

Fantasy. Put basically, the Exalted becomes the Storyteller. Their story can be defied, though. And if defied enough times, the charm falls apart. But for that window of time, they are a juggernaut, and that's long enough to put a big dent in even an army of space marines. Charms are not supposed to "upgrade their powers a little" in the same way that a Wizard's spells don't make him a "slightly better fighter".

And the God-Emperor of Mankind? Well, perhaps we could pit him up against the Unconquered Sun, who is like a version of God (complete with apparent lack of action in the world), as opposed to the God-Emperor of Mankind's Jesus.

Rutee

2008-03-27, 10:10 PM

Actually, pitting the GEoM against one really old First Age Solar is a roughly fair fight. We haven't needed to break out the UCS yet, someone just insisted that some C'tan or other would eat it. No, because you deal with the same Perfect Defenses from the UCS, who can punch the Nightbringer back.

And I don't think anyone here ever thought they were anything /but/ a nerd. We're on the internetz, for chrissakes. Also, strike three, Mr. Chaplain.

streakster

2008-03-27, 10:13 PM

Well said, Iethloc and Rutee. To that, I can only agree.

Not to mention his solar is very underpowered. He also seems to be under the impression that Exalted vs 40k can be settled with a 40K contest.

By the way, the Warhammer 40,000 is said to be one big example of the Rule of Cool (In it's logic defying sense, not the stunt nickname) on Tvtropes.

Talkkno

2008-03-27, 10:18 PM

Looks like Warhammer also uses Rule of Cool to a small degree.:smallamused:

You're being a bit unpleasant. I know this is the most uncivilized thread on the entire playground but could you please play nice?

So. Many. Quotes.:smalleek:

I apologize for my rude behavior, I was too hyped with soda and just finished the awesome Crimson Tears novel. :D

Rutee

2008-03-27, 10:22 PM

Did his long ad hominen involve the one Solar at anywhere near their actual combat capabilities? Or a social solar converting the 40k troops to their cause, or anything like that?

I apologize for my rude behavior, I was too hyped with soda and just finished the awesome Crimson Tears novel. :D
I should maybe look into those, but the impression I got after Dark Heresy was that this was a very cool setting, but the way the creators went with it wasn't interesting to me; I could roleplay in it, but the novels or codexes or whatnot..

Terraoblivion

2008-03-27, 10:27 PM

Though i am not certain why it is worth stating what has been stated several times to refute such an obvious troll. It is funny, though, so i guess it is all fine.

Alarra

2008-03-27, 10:30 PM

This really got to 14 pages before someone thought, hey...this is about games? *shuffles off*

Thinker

2008-03-27, 10:31 PM

This really got to 14 pages before someone thought, hey...this is about games? *shuffles off*

Couldn't you have just let it die? :smalltongue:

tyckspoon

2008-03-27, 10:39 PM

Gaming: Where bad ideas in Other Media go to die. Good riddance.

Rutee

2008-03-27, 10:40 PM

Honestly, even I'm exhausted of it. I'll try and just stick to answering questions like the ones last page.

streakster

2008-03-27, 10:40 PM

Did his long ad hominen involve the one Solar at anywhere near their actual combat capabilities? Or a social solar converting the 40k troops to their cause, or anything like that?

Hoho, no.

No, this Solar got a "pansy dance" that could move enemies, one attack spell, and a Perfect Parry that wasn't perfect. I have not the faintest idea whether the stats are accurate or not, but judging from the rest, I suspect not.

EDIT:I'm tired of it as well, and I haven't even been it for long.

Selrahc

2008-03-28, 06:29 AM

if WH40k functioned on anything remotely resembling physics, it Forge and Hive Worlds would sizzle (AC works by shunting heat. Problem with that being that the heat has to go SOMEWHERE, and you run out of acceptable targets if you make the World All or even Mostly city.

I think you're thinking of Coruscant. The saqme arguments don't apply here. For one thing, the worlds are not inhabited right through the centre, so there will only be a certain ammount of heat build up.

Also except in the eye of terror, you don't have worlds entirely covered in city. Even the most heavily covered planets have vast uninhabited deadlands(Or, in the case of Holy Terra, unbuilt upon and polluted deadlands, teeming with billions of pilgrims)

Mars and some of the forge worlds also have built upon surface areas covering the vast majority(But nowhere near all) of a planet, but since they're not really inhabited by humans it doesn't really matter. Manufacturing machines don't need heat, and techpriests and servitors for maintenance only inhabit a tiny portion of forge space.

Each Hive City is a massive city, dwarfing anything on Earth. The lower levels are almost completely uninhabitable due to heat pollution(And regular pollution.)

Each spire takes up a large area, and can have upwards of a billion people in it, but takes up relatively little ground space. It would only be a bit bigger than the largest modern day metropolises in ground space taken up, while its population density would skyrocket due to the vast height, and cramped conditions.

A hive world would generally have no more than 5 or 6 of these super conurbations, with other more conventional settlement elsewhere. In fact it would be quite common for a world to host only 1 or 2 of the hives.

Heat can be, and is pumped out of the hives into the surrounding areas. For many thousands of kilometres around the hive proper, living conditions would be abysmal, with incredible heat, gigantic clouds of toxic fog, and other nasty things making life all but impossible.

Hive worlds don't really seem all that unviable.

Oslecamo

2008-03-28, 07:58 AM

It's no use, Shelrac. The exalted suporters have already stated time and time again that all fantasy is 100% unreal, no matter what arguments are brought before them.

Either you are using the rules of physics at every minor step, or you're making cities pop up from the earth with just a punch. There's no middle ground.

Of course that if the author doesn't apply advanced termodinamics to the last detail, then his ideas are just as implausible as the other author that states that you can deflect nuclear blasts with your hands just because you're cool.

It all makes perfect sense in their heads. However, since perfection to the exalted crowd seems to mean "Boozeeee and paarrtttyyy until you can't stand uuppp while we have 10000 enemies at our doorstep!!!!", this could explain a lot of their way of thinking and why this thread won't go anywhere.

streakster

2008-03-28, 08:54 AM

Ahem. As I've said before, please give the scientific explanation for how thinking your tank works will make it work.

Besides, even if you managed to prove that every detail of 40k was perfectly scientifically possible, it wouldn't help your argument that 40k could beat Exalted. No one is competing for which side is more realistic.

Rutee

2008-03-28, 10:16 AM

No, I was wrong there, Oslecamo; I had the setup of the planet wrong (FYI: The deadlands in Holy Terra can't have pilgrims, unless they're pilgrims who die on entry to them. If you're going to shunt your heat to the surrounding uninhabited areas, they're going to, in all probability, boil humans alive).

But again, Chain Swords (The unrealistic part is in how a sword cuts compared to a chain saw, specifically. I can buy that the power source and engine have been miniaturized to fit into a sword hilt; The trouble is that a chain saw doesn't work based on contact; It works by running the teeth over the same surface at very high speeds until it's ground away some measure of the material in question. A Chain Sword would utterly demolish any human being without armor, because human flesh can't offer any resistance to the teeth. Trouble is, that's not what they're predominantly being used on :P). BLACK HOLE CANNONS, particularly being used by ground forces. Shuriken guns (Which is quite possibly the most awe inspiringly awesome and hilarious concept I think I've listed here). Ork everything. Humans maintaining their tech. Gene Seed (I'm not the greetest at Bio, but I know /that/ particular bit of technobabble is unpossible). Gauss Flayers. The non-human/non-Orks are far smaller offenders though, since they're pretty much using Sufficiently Advanced Technology (AKA Technomancy).

Honestly, you'd think I was being disparaging about it, with your delivery. What, *I'm* going to mind someone using Rule of Cool (For a different value of Cool)? Nonsense. I love Rule of Cool (Though not so much this value of it). It's just not the paragon of realism you seem to think it is.

Even Games Workshop doesn't take itself as seriously as you are. Read Dark Heresy; The delivery on so much of the material, particularly the UTTER GRIM DARK parts of it (like how a bludgeoning critical can shatter bones to such a degree that the arm shatters and becomes shrapnel, spraying everyone in the area with bone) is clearly spoken with tongue-firmly-in-cheek quasi-seriousness.

Iethloc

2008-03-28, 02:23 PM

It all makes perfect sense in their heads. However, since perfection to the exalted crowd seems to mean "Boozeeee and paarrtttyyy until you can't stand uuppp while we have 10000 enemies at our doorstep!!!!", this could explain a lot of their way of thinking and why this thread won't go anywhere.

Once again, Ad hominem is not a superweapon that fires nuclear missiles through dimensions. It's just rude, unproductive, unpersuasive, and unwelcome in any debate. I'm trying to use reason here (and so are my fellow Exalted fans), yet you (and a handful of other people) continuously attempt to discredit us on various grounds ultimately unrelated to our debating skills OR Exalted/Warhammer 40k.

And I'm certainly not saying that all fantasy is 100% unreal. Have you seen Exalted's health system? It's actually somewhat realistic. Certainly more realistic than Dungeons and Dragons' health system. Humans never have more than 7 health levels (plus dying levels), and they get more and more penalties as they take damage. They even have rules for bleeding and infection and crippling.

Unsurpisingly, Exalted ignore the infection and bleeding part, and are capable of staunching bleeding with a thought. It's not realistic, but it makes sense for them and helps speed up combat since you're not rolling to see if you wake up with a fever the next day whenever some prick decides to cut you with a knife.

I believe there are also rules for throwing projectiles in a windy area (or, at least, I saw it referenced in a charm that eliminates the penalties, which is definitely good evidence for its existence). There are also charms that allow one to conjure cities (Wyld Shaping Technique, anyone?), and could definitely be stunted to involve punching the ground. Looks like we've got the best of both worlds.

Besides, it doesn't matter at all if the game is realistic. Realism is just icing. What matters is that the game is FUN. Exalted is certainly fun. I've never played Warhammer 40k, but I believe people when they say it's fun. We're here to decide which is at a higher level of power, not which one is more or less realistic or more fun.

Anyway, if the Exalted were going to fight objective-based battles with Space Marines, or if they were going to play capture the flag or just about anything but a battle to the death on a flat plain, the Sidereal Martial Art Scarlet Patterned Battlefield Style should definitely be brought into play. Masters of it can push people back hundreds of yards while defending someone, or teleport to someone they swore to defend if they fall under attack, or, most importantly, perfectly defend against all attacks, with a few exceptions. Large coordinated attacks (definitely possible), being surrounded and prevented from maneuvering (very hard against a skilled Exalted), or simply being attacked by a creature with a high Essence Score (higher-level Psykers, I'd estimate in this case).

Terraoblivion

2008-03-28, 03:13 PM

I will readily admit that i prefer the Exalted setting and its assumptions to those of Warhammer 40k. That does not mean i don't consider Warhammer 40k to be a mostly cool setting, because it is so very fun in how grim and dark it is. It is so over the top in its grittiness that it loses any claim to realism because that is not what it is going for, what it is going for is coolness. They still use swords and axes in a setting where laser rifles and orbital bombardments are common. That alone should be a hint that the setting is not caring a whole lot about realism. It cares about being cool and Exalted cares about being cool. It is just the flavor of the coolness that is different, one going with an extreme version of anti-war novels while the other is going with a post-modern version of ancient mythology.

I am not even sure why it matters which game is more unrealistic, not only was the discussion not supposed to be about that, both builds their own internally consistent rules of how things work. Exalted has its own rules of metaphysics of how the setting works, including the power of the exalted and the gods. It works on radically different rules of physics than our world, but that does not mean there are no rules. Winds do not flow due because of the actions of thermal expansion and differences in pressure, they flow because the celestial bureaucracy has planned it and the god in charge of overseeing that wind makes it flow. As such a being stronger than the god can force its own will on how the wind should flow, but the being could also make the god disobey its orders or convince the celestial bureaucracy to make the wind flow differently. Is it realistic? Not in the slightest, but it is internally consistent and it is a framework that prevents the arbitrariness that Oslecamo and others has charged Exalted with possessing.

On the other hand Warhammer 40k has mountains of completely unrealistic parts. The infrastructure and the durability on the technology has been touched on, as has the orks and the chainswords. Something even more central to the setting that is not realistic is the Space Marines. The reason they are not realistic is that they simply operate in too small groups to be effective at the straight-up slugging matches that Warhammer 40k is known for. This is not because the others operate in large enough numbers to overrun the marines, though with half-decent technology that is indeed the case, but because they simply cannot hold ground. There are not enough of them to do the patrolling and ground control needed to win a war. The only ways they can really fight is to eradicate everything or as special forces focussed on assassination and targeted strikes. Conquest, defense or anything else simply require more individual soldiers than a space marine chapter has. Does it matter however? Space marines are cool as they are, work on internally consistent rules and has a clear role in the setting. They just aren't realistic.

But all this has little bearing on the original discussion and just on the argument that Exalted is too absurd to take seriously anyway. If it is then don't play it and don't argue about it. In regards to the original topic it seems to have pretty conclussively proven that perfect defenses, sorcery, sidereal intelligence gathering and solar diplomancy all spell doom for Warhammer 40k. So can we close this now and stop assaulting games that happen to be different from our own preferences?

Rutee

2008-03-28, 03:22 PM

Actually I think it was Talkkno or Lord Vader who pointed out that Space Marines /aren't/ the sluggers (I'll trust them over Wikipedia's depiction of 40k Source Material on something like that). Rather, they launch surgical strikes and are Spec-Ops.

Realism came up because somebody or other was sniping at the Rule of Cool as a guiding principle in Exalted. And I've been shooting down the idea that Rule of Cool (For a different Value of Cool) isn't a guiding factor in WH40k. Which, well. Chain Swords, Shuriken Guns. :smallbiggrin:

I think the only person here who legitimately opposes the Rule of Cool as a concept is Oslecamo (Who managed to again forget the difference between accomplishing tasks perfectly and having Perfect Motives).

Terraoblivion

2008-03-28, 03:34 PM

Might have missed that, though their portrayal and their armaments doesn't seem to indicate a focus on surgical strike. Also it appears that a lot of the fluff depicts the space marines locked in actual wars with enemies of the Imperium which makes no sense at all.

Also i recall that at least a few other than Oslecamo try to portray Warhammer 40k as being a reality based setting, even when nothing seems to indicate that it is.

Selrahc

2008-03-28, 03:41 PM

Space Marines are elite special forces for the imperium. They conduct surgical strikes, which cripple enemy armies.

They are never, never grunt troops. Even during space marine heavy defences(Such as the battle of Macragge, a major space marine homeworld, with multiple allied space marine chapters commiting full resources to the defence) still were dwarfed in numbers by Imperial Guard forces.

The Imperial Guard hold the line. The Space Marines win the war.

Rutee

2008-03-28, 03:49 PM

That fits much better with what I'd read and such, actually. Thanks.

RagnaroksChosen

2008-03-28, 04:03 PM

Just finished reading this...

all i have to say is wow...

few things i have questions about....
1. if these exhalted are as powerfull as you guys say and as nemerous as you guys say... then whats the point of playing the game.. sounds kinda boring if you ask me... i meen theres no chance to loose... sounds like some one turned on god mode...
2. I think people arn't applying the rule of cool to 40k as a big fan of 40k I'd have to say that some of the greater demons would prolly rip apart and exhalted... never mind that some of the demons are actualy the embodyment of human emotions/thoughts/natural order of the universe...
3. Again i would imagine that if the whole 40k universe banded together... to fight the exhalted universe. eventialy the 40k universe would win simply by having more resources.. again if exhalteds can be worn down then they have god mode on and can't realy be compaired...

any way my two cp...

Poison_Fish

2008-03-28, 04:12 PM

I don't think you have read the thread. Because all your points have been addressed. Several times.

Terraoblivion

2008-03-28, 04:13 PM

OK, then they do make sense, except that their equipment doesn't exactly scream "special forces". It is seems more focused on overwhelming force and resistance than on mobility and stealth. Somehow sniper rifles, fast skimmers and camouflage colors seem more useful than flamethrowers, chainswords and power armor in that role. Mobility, autonomy and ability to remain hidden are key traits for special forces. Overwhelming power and strength less so. After all the point of special forces is attacking where the opponent is weak.

In any case a pitched battlefield is the worst place to use a space marine, they are too expensive to replace and the ordinance going on a modern battlefield, not to mention those of 40k, could easily kill them at random. So even surgical strikes on a battlefield is a horrible idea for where to use them, they should operate behind lines and disrupt command lines and infrastructure. But their bright, primary color equipment and heat expelling power armor makes them fairly unsuited to this role, not to mention their heavy equipment such as dreadnoughts.

Still the significance of them and their usefulness seems to be rather overstated. Billions of imperial guardsmen seem like a rather more important part of a military machine than a million space marines, no matter the difference in capabilities. Simply because it is the massed grunts that wins wars, not the special forces. If special forces won wars Vietnam would have gone differently and people would ascribe less significance to the Battle of Stalingrad. And this is even taking into account the rather uneven and spotty training of the guard.

Iethloc

2008-03-28, 04:17 PM

The Exalted aren't all on one side, and the Exalted certainly aren't the only supernaturally powerful creatures in the Exalted Game. Not everyone is working together, nor is everyone in the Warhammer 40k universe working together. But for the purpose of this debate, which universe is more powerful, they are forced to work together, despite how unlikely it is.

And you say Exalted basically have a "god mode", and yet you say the higher demons would rip them apart? That doesn't seem wholly consistent. And we've already stated that an old First Age Solar would probably be a match for the God-Emperor of Mankind. The Second Age Solars are still powerful, just not as old. And then there are Lunars and Sidereals, who still have their Elder, Extremely Powerful Exalted. Sidereal Martial Artists alone can literally make and destroy worlds (the world in question is very rarely Creation, for reasons varying from not wanting to risk losing it to not wanting to risk angering the Celestial Bureaucracy).

Take Meditative Battlefield Escalation (or something similar), which I may or may not have already mentioned. It literally creates a whole new world for everyone to fight in, but the Sidereal makes the rules. It could be anything from a twisted version of the current battle to a chain of mountains slowly moving to engulf each other.