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Skjaldbakka
2007-12-26, 04:38 PM
Warhammer is a ridiculously overpowered campaign setting/system, and Exalted is a ridiculously overpowered campaign setting/system.

Who wins? Lets assume that a wormhole of plot opens up between the two universes.

New Terms and Conditions, as requested:

1: Creation is modified to be compatible with Warhammer 40K (is a planet, as has been defined earlier).

2: The Wyld is similar to the Warp, but the Warp is more powerful. Consider the Wyld to be a watered down version of the Warp, which leaked into Creation.

3: Creation appears on the fringes of the galaxy. Some high powered Solar uses magic to keep the Warp at bay in the immediate area of Creation (creating a shield of sorts, I believe the IoM has a tech version, so make it a perfect version of that, around just Creation).

4: The IoM immediately recognizes the threat Creation presents to the IoM, and sends all the forces it can spare w/o other factions tearing them apart.

5: Creation appearing happens just after the IoM has made significant and dramatic victories over its enemies all across the galaxy, and so the threat of other faction is diminished (and they can allocate a large amount of forces to fighting Creation, needing only a token presence maintained on their other worlds).

6: Creation is unaware that the IoM is coming, but they are expecting something bad to come and try to destroy them, and have made preperations including developing a spell that allows Solars to operate in space (I'll let an Exalted buff tell us how costly/difficult that should be, keeping in mind that they need to include protection from the Warp in this spell).

Tweekinator
2007-12-28, 10:14 AM
Both settings unified against one another?

Nevermind, that doesn't matter; 40K wins. Any faction. The exalted would never be able to split their die pools to defend against all the attacks that can be brought to bear on them from any of the 40K factions. And that's not counting the 40K demigods/gods.

Indon
2007-12-28, 10:45 AM
Depends on if the Primordials get in on the action.

Yes, the Primordials are only planetary-scale, not really cosmic, but the Warhammer universe has very few tools for fighting them. Even the Chaos Gods are manifested as humanoid-like; the Primordials are stuff like "Water". "Wind". "Causality".

And a high-level Exalt _can_ defend against an arbitrary number of attacks, especially with a high-level dodge charm or artifact, or with Sidereal Martial Arts. A single master of the Perfect Arrangement of Creation form (I think that's it, dunno if it exists in the game's 2'nd ed) could bring some pain down on any Warhammer army, and we haven't even gotten into Solar Circle Sorcery yet.

WalkingTarget
2007-12-28, 11:02 AM
It's been a while since my last Exalted game. How expensive is Heavenly Guardian Defense? (i.e. how often could a reasonably experienced Solar use it in a short period of time?) That (and equivalent types of charms) gives a minimum time before total destruction if you somehow manage to shoehorn orbital bombardment into the finite Creation where the stars are just painted on the roof after all (I was always a big fan of the possibility of having the Surprise Anticipation Method/Heavenly Guardian Defense combo).

I don't know how things work out if we're relegated to ground troops from 40K, but it'd be fun to watch.

Rutee
2007-12-28, 11:38 AM
It's been a while since my last Exalted game. How expensive is Heavenly Guardian Defense? (i.e. how often could a reasonably experienced Solar use it in a short period of time?) That (and equivalent types of charms) gives a minimum time before total destruction if you somehow manage to shoehorn orbital bombardment into the finite Creation where the stars are just painted on the roof after all (I was always a big fan of the possibility of having the Surprise Anticipation Method/Heavenly Guardian Defense combo).

I don't know how things work out if we're relegated to ground troops from 40K, but it'd be fun to watch.


Cheap as Hell. It's been alterred to be like, less-then-a-stunt worth of essence. No WP.

If WH40k moves at it's normal speed (Slow as hell), Exalted. You have what amounts to a natural choke point without unified, proper movement, and a natural choke point pretty much negates the numbers advantage.

If the WH40k people have the slightest bit fo tactical sense, them. While I consider 300k Space Marines against 300 Solars to be a fair fight, there's just /so many/ people..

...Though on that note, there doesn't seem to be that many more then a million Space Marines, which changes quite a few assumptions of mine. Especially since I find it slightly unlikely that they'll all work perfectly together.

The WH40k's biggest problem is time between waves. If it's as big as it could be? Potentially, new replacements for everyone who fell can potentially be trained up (True, these wouldn't be Essence 7-10 God Kings, but to the unExalted, the difference between Essence 3 and 7+ is academic.) Notwithstanding that any God or Demon who falls is only barely inconvenienced, and we are talking about the /entire/ Exalted universe.


Nevermind, that doesn't matter; 40K wins. Any faction. The exalted would never be able to split their die pools to defend against all the attacks that can be brought to bear on them from any of the 40K factions. And that's not counting the 40K demigods/gods.
Uh, Fivefold Bulwark Stance, anyone? Or Flow Like Blood? What Solar is splitting their Dice Pool from Ess 4 onward?

Hasivel
2007-12-28, 12:32 PM
Both settings unified against one another?

Nevermind, that doesn't matter; 40K wins. Any faction. The exalted would never be able to split their die pools to defend against all the attacks that can be brought to bear on them from any of the 40K factions. And that's not counting the 40K demigods/gods.The 40k army would never get a shot off. Any remotely competent just-out-of-chargen solar stealth build could wander around their army all day long without being spotted. Any competent War leader build could outmaneuver and destroy a 40K army using a handful of peasant conscripts armed with sticks and rocks after being surrounded and outnumbered by space marines.
(Note that the definition of the War ability says: "A character with war 5 can plan a strategy that leads to victory when outnumbered and outflanked by the Fair Folk." and the Fair Folk are reality warpers.)
And that's not even the worst of it. A social fu Solar could turn the whole 40K army into his devoted slaves with minimal effort (Presence Ability: "A character with Presence 5 can convince a member of the Wyld Hunt to convert to worship of the Unconquered Sun." The Wyld Hunt being an army of supernaturally powerful beings devoted to destroying worshipers of the Unconquered Sun.)

And this is with pure skill, before you start considering the charms and special powers Exalted have, such as the Perfects which basically say "Ignore the dice, this charm is an "I Win" button unless your enemy also has a Perfect counter. A much more likely event is the 40K army charging in, being converted to serve the Exalted, receiving Tiger Warrior Training to become much more powerful than a normal 40K troops, and then being led by an Exalted General who makes a fusion of Sun Tzu, Thrawn, and Ender look like Custer.

I just can't see 40K winning here. Exalted is all about being massively outnumbered by supernaturally powerful beings and beating them down, hard.

warty goblin
2007-12-28, 12:56 PM
Although negotiating with orbital bombardment is somewhat difficult...

I know very little about Exalted, but I feel there's a little underestimation of WH40K going on here. After all, they kill things of truly unimaginable horror and vast supernatural power fairly regularly- look at the Grey Knights. They regularly land on chaos overrun worlds and fight through hordes of heritcs to accomplish their objectives. From what Rutee is saying, they sound remarkable similar to the Solars in a lot of ways.

Gungnir
2007-12-28, 01:00 PM
There's a reason they call the Unconquered Sun the Unconquered Sun. He's unconquered. You get that guy leading Solars into battle, everyone is going to die but them.

Plus, there's a hearthstone that basically gives you the classic terrasque immortality. No matter what, if you are attuned to it, you regenerate 1 HP per round. Just give that to a Solar, load him up with whatever else you got, and he can beat 40k by himself while everyone else goes to play chess against the Icemind.

Lets see what else I can think of. Solars can make nukes with their mind. Throw mountains (with or without sorcery!). Send continents into other dimensions. Turn people's souls inside out. Turn any body of water into fire. And I'm pretty sure that there is at least one mention of "infinite damage" in the First Book of Sorcery (artifacts).

Edit: I remembered where the infinite damage came from. There is an artifact called the Five-Metal Shrike. It has a BFG, Lance of the Unconquered Sun, which takes about minute to charge and takes 500 motes of essence (a lot, to the uninitiated) It does "effectively infinite damage" to a large area, then an arbitrarily large amount for like 5 miles out.

Skjaldbakka
2007-12-28, 01:05 PM
Isn't the Exalted universe an infinite flat plane? That precludes orbital bombardment. It also makes the IoM's spaceships really big airships. And Flying isn't difficult in Exalted, IIRC.

warty goblin
2007-12-28, 01:10 PM
And alpha level psykers can accidentally destroy a planet with their minds, your point?

Unconquered only means nobody's managed to beat them yet, not that they are unbeatable, that's invincible.

Regenerating 1 HP a round? I'm assuming that people in this setting have very few HP, because if they have lots, that's really not very impressive. Cut enough holes in them, they go down, then throw them into a sun. Problem solved, they can regenerate all they want, but I'm guessing that coronial plasma does more than 1 damage a round.

Gungnir
2007-12-28, 01:17 PM
Isn't the Exalted universe an infinite flat plane? That precludes orbital bombardment. It also makes the IoM's spaceships really big airships. And Flying isn't difficult in Exalted, IIRC.

It's infinite, but each pole gets more and more like its element as you keep going. North eventually reaches absolute zero, South eventually turns into an infinite wall of fire, East into a infinitely tall forest. and West into an infinite ocean. Oh, and reality falls apart, unless you're a Solar and can force it into place. You could always go high enough that it's effectively orbital bombardment, but yeah, flying is a two or three dot artifact (mild rarity, at least in the Age of Sorrows) for individuals.

I assume this fight is taking place in the First Age, of course. after the terrestrials took down the solars, everything is too f***ed to s*** for anyone to fight back.

Problem solved, they can regenerate all they want, but I'm guessing that coronial plasma does more than 1 damage a round.

Except the Sun is on their side. And they can have pretty much as many as they want. And now that I think of it, immunity to heat is a pretty low cost charm. How were you going to cut all those holes into a guy with a perfect defense again?

merrja666
2007-12-28, 01:31 PM
A few Chaos cultists summon a Greater Daemon. The planet gets turned into a Daemon Planet. A Greater Avatar appears. Everybody dies.

warty goblin
2007-12-28, 01:33 PM
So, if the world's an infinite plane, how are we setting up this wormhole between the two universes? I'm assuming that there's day and night, so either the sun revolves around the plain, or something covers it up. Destroy the covering, and the plane will be cooked in a deluge of constant energy and seared into a desert. And how are the Exalted peeps, who are stuck way down on the ground ever going to get off of it and threaten the entire galaxy?

And the Exalted sun may be on their side, but I'm guessing that not every single star in the WH40K galaxy is, and black holes certainly are not. Also, in the corona of a star, heat is the least of one's worries. Massive radiation, as well as a freakishly high gravity come to mind.

Anyway, just virus-bomb the plane from a great height and watch the entire biosphere convert to dead goo, then methane and oxygene and then a giant firestorm. Anything that survives (immunity to disease/heat, lack of need for food, water etc) can be easily dealt with by lance batteries from high flying (like well out of the atmosphere) warships, which can turn a two kilometer high mountain into a kilometer deep smoking hole with every shot.

Or get that alpha level psyker...

Skjaldbakka
2007-12-28, 01:49 PM
That alpha level psykker isn't gonna be anywhere close to the power level Exalts get. Exalted is an absolutely retarded power level. Even more so than the IoM. The IoM has ridiculously more really powerful people, but I don't even think the Emperor is as retardedly powerful as even PC solars can get. And the antagonists that those PC solars are supposed to fight (or run away screaming from) are even more retardedly powerful.

Selrahc
2007-12-28, 01:51 PM
A few Chaos cultists summon a Greater Daemon. The planet gets turned into a Daemon Planet. A Greater Avatar appears. Everybody dies.

The biggest baddest daemons are fairly standard power levels for Exalted.

They are just really really tough in the Exaltedverse.


And alpha level psykers can accidentally destroy a planet with their minds, your point?


Uh... where does an Alpha level psychic do that? I think you're thinking of Alpha plus level. Which is pretty much just the emperor. And the destruction of a planet is not said to be easy, just unintentional.

And where exactly is the Imperium getting this meaningful supply of alpha level psychics that they seem to trot out every versus thread? Alpha level psychics are really really incredibly rare beings. And they're not used by the Imperium of Man, because almost universally they're crazed wierdoes who have to be put down by an inquisitorial strike force. The imperium doesn't have some corps of alpha level psychics it can call up, because those beings are just too powerful, and too unstable to rely on.

I can believe that the Imperium has maybe 2 or 3 dozen alpha level psychics under their control, scattered to the most important areas, and kept under heavy guard. Someone mentioned a guy on the High Council being one, and thats the kind of thing I'd expect. If you keep in mind that these guys are on the power level of armies, rather than star fleets, which puts them way below the power level of the top tier superheroes (Or indeed, powerful Solars). They aren't going to change the course of a versus thread, because their just aren't enough.

Skjaldbakka
2007-12-28, 01:55 PM
Anyway, just virus-bomb the plane from a great height and watch the entire biosphere convert to dead goo, then methane and oxygene and then a giant firestorm. Anything that survives (immunity to disease/heat, lack of need for food, water etc) can be easily dealt with by lance batteries from high flying (like well out of the atmosphere) warships, which can turn a two kilometer high mountain into a kilometer deep smoking hole with every shot.

The powerful people of the universe will be immune to the virus bomb. A high level (we're talking PC-able range) Solar could sit in front of your lance battery and take every shot, taking no damage, or deflect it back with minimal effort. You could probably manage to make a combo that would let him cover an entire mountain range, blocking every shot, and sending it back at the thing that fired it with perfect accuracy.

Tengu
2007-12-28, 01:56 PM
Exalted wins, because heroic wins with gritty - what was the last time an Exalted character lost a battle with a huge army of weaker troops? All Warhammer soldiers, apart from the heroes, are probably extras in Exaltedverse, thus being nothing more than fodder for stunts (and Essence regaining), and the heroes have less tricks up their sleeve then any exalted, and thus lose.

Also, stuff tailored for anime and mythology fanboys is much more fun than stuff tailored for dark anti-hero-loving 12-17 year olds (official Games Workshop stance).

warty goblin
2007-12-28, 02:01 PM
The thing about the IoM is that even if alpha level psykers are a one in a trillion event, that gives them probably thousands if not hundreds of thousands or millions of them.

And I'm hearing all of this stuff about how powerful Exalted is, but so far we have mind nukes, which are still way less impressive than an orbital lance strike, and regeneration, which although cool I don't see being that hard to deal with- dissolving them in acid should work for example. So if I could have some examples I'd appreciate it.

Selrahc
2007-12-28, 02:08 PM
The thing about the IoM is that even if alpha level psykers are a one in a trillion event, that gives them probably thousands if not hundreds of thousands or millions of them.

Even rarer than one in a trillion, by all indications. And then they go nuts and attack the imperium. Or they don't go nuts, but get executed anyway, because they're just too much hassle. Or demons take over the psykers body, and use him to bridge to the warp. Or he gets killed in battle, ten days after he becomes combat ready, because hes been thrown into one of the most deadly wars imaginable (For example.. the Battle of Macragge, or being Stationed on Cadia during the Black Crusade.)


There is no indication that the imperium has a large supply of alpha level psychics in reserve. And even if they did, it doesn't matter, because solars are just a whole lot better.


And I'm hearing all of this stuff about how powerful Exalted is, but so far we have mind nukes, which are still way less impressive than an orbital lance strike, and regeneration, which although cool I don't see being that hard to deal with- dissolving them in acid should work for example. So if I could have some examples I'd appreciate it.

You saw that thing about the single solar being able to patrol a mountain range and instantly deflect an entire orbital barrage back at the people shooting it, perfectly? Well that is perfectly doable, and not even at the upper limits of power.

Gungnir
2007-12-28, 02:10 PM
A few Chaos cultists summon a Greater Daemon. The planet gets turned into a Daemon Planet. A Greater Avatar appears. Everybody dies.
Anything involving a demon or the undead is trumped by Banishment sorceries. If Solars can do anything, it's swing the banhammer at Evil Things.

The first thing we need to do is set up the playing field. Easiest thing to do is pretty much just turn the Exalted setting into a planet, mostly normal except for patches of pure chaos here and there, since that's one of the Solars biggest advantages: making stuff out of chaos. We'll remove the Fair Folk from the equation, as they'd fit right in with whatever lives in Immaterium. I guess Malfeas fits there too, so we'll chuck that in. Not sure what to do with Heaven (forget Exalted's name for it) For now, I'll just chuck it off in the corner as another separate dimension; not much happens there anyways.

I propose we leave gods and such out of this; the only thing more arbitrary than arguing over fake religions is arguing over real ones.

Now, The main problem is that while flying itself is easy as pie in Exalted, airships are quite uncommon (why bother when you can get there in less than a second yourself?), so there's less rules for them, and the ships that do have rules generally don't get any bigger than say, a modern day aircraft carrier. (I'm short the core rules and the book that had rules for ships, so bear with me.) I'll just try and work with what I've got for now, and assume that there has been enough time for more than one Shrike to be built.

Please continue while I go see what wikipedia has to say on the subject of WH40k.

Captain van der Decken
2007-12-28, 02:16 PM
I think you're thinking of Alpha plus level. Which is pretty much just the emperor.


There were a few being paraded at Thracian Primaris, so there are (probably) more than just the Emperor.

I'd expect if there are any of them, they serve Chaos, but 40k isn't just the Imperium.

warty goblin
2007-12-28, 02:22 PM
There were a few being paraded at Thracian Primaris, so there are (probably) more than just the Emperor.

I'd expect if there are any of them, they serve Chaos, but 40k isn't just the Imperium.

That's true, an entire planet of unprotected psykers, Chaos is going to have a field day- exploding heads for all!

Selrahc
2007-12-28, 02:24 PM
That's true, an entire planet of unprotected psykers, Chaos is going to have a field day- exploding heads for all!

Uh... None of the exalted are getting their powers from the warp, so they don't count as psykers.

Just because the warp is where fantastic powers come from in 40K, doesn't mean that people with fantastic powers from other universes count as psykers for the purposes of a 40K versus thread.

Indon
2007-12-28, 02:46 PM
I might as well go a bit into Exalted power sources.

The universe is made from Essence. Reality is governed by a large machine in heaven and a bunch of spirits with a hive-mind and a bureaucratic bent.

The universe was made by Primordials, kind of semi-abstract superentities including the planet itself (Gaia, the maker of the Dragons), the being which formerly governed reality (Autochthon, AWOL from Creation at the moment), and the Black Wind of Malfeas, a being whose mere passing apparently kills unarmored humans in about 7 seconds. The Exalted aren't good terms with these guys, and to be honest, I think they would make the fight unfair, so except for Gaia (who's obviously already there) they don't get to come into creation to help. (And to be honest, Gaia doesn't do much anyway)

Next down we have the Incarna, basically high-tier deities. They have everything you'd expect of a deity, though they're greek-roman style more than they are judeo-christian (so no, not I Win buttons in the fight). We could include them or not, really. They include beings in charge of the elements, the sun, the moon, and the five planets closest to the sun.

Next down we have Celestial Exalts, immortal spirits which leap-frog from mortal bodies into new mortal bodies selected by an enigmatic lesser deity (having their memories cleaned along the way). We should settle ASAP what counts as an eligable body, because if an Exalt's essence can just jump into a Space Marine, and said deity decides not to wipe old memories, that might get freaky.

There are about 1000 Celestial Exalts max in creation; a number which is invariable. Big downside.

Then we have Terrestrial Exalts, super-powered mortals whose power is more genetic than that of the Celestial Exalts. They're basically the grunts of the universe, and a single weak Terrestrial Exalt is probably about a match for an Eldar or an Ork, while a strong one is a match for a Space or Chaos marine. Their numbers vary wildly throughout the history of the world.

If we're doing this in the first age, then the Dragon Kings deserve an honorable mention - they're basically sentient, magical dinosaurs, and there were a whole lot of them at the time.

Gungnir
2007-12-28, 03:02 PM
Don't forget the Sidereals! What with their near-direct control over fate.

Thinker
2007-12-28, 03:04 PM
Don't forget the Sidereals! What with their near-direct control over fate.

Those are the Celestial Exalts.

Gungnir
2007-12-28, 03:10 PM
Those are the Celestial Exalts.

Right. I knew that.:smallredface: I tend to lump Lunars and Solars together because they can be pretty similar (minus the shapechanging part), and leave Sidereals alone in their own group since they never hang out with anyone else.

Poison_Fish
2007-12-28, 04:12 PM
Next down we have Celestial Exalts, immortal spirits which leap-frog from mortal bodies into new mortal bodies selected by an enigmatic lesser deity (having their memories cleaned along the way). We should settle ASAP what counts as an eligable body, because if an Exalt's essence can just jump into a Space Marine, and said deity decides not to wipe old memories, that might get freaky.

Lytek must be having fun chucking the essence shards into space marines.


There are about 1000 Celestial Exalts max in creation; a number which is invariable. Big downside.

Actually, there are 700. 100 sidereal shards, 300 lunar shards, 150 solar shards (give or take), 100 abyssal shards, and 50 solar shards sitting around being all infernally thanks to the Yozi. The Yozi being the Primordials who aren't dead. The neverborn are the "dead" primordials, but they are concepts, and concepts can't die. They just be smacked around by solars enough to change what their concept is. Then they sit near a giant gaping hole of nothing and be emo because they can't jump into it.


Not sure what to do with Heaven (forget Exalted's name for it) For now, I'll just chuck it off in the corner as another separate dimension; not much happens there anyway.

Yu Shan is heaven's name.

As for connecting the two universes, it'd be pretty easy to say that the 40k verse flies in from their big universe into a portion of the eye of terror once left alone by chaos. The further they go in, the more "chaos" becomes "The Wyld" so the speak. The plane becomes flat, etc.

Now, as to the survival of the exalted universe, I have doubts it would be able to manage in the age of sorrows. The solars are too young(Then again, you'd have the infernals and death lords to deal with instead). But if we are talking about the first age here, or some incredibly lucky solars who are XP'd up to 5 or 6, there is a lot of trouble.

Of course, there is but one simple answer to this fight. A medium powered eclipse could bring whatever immediate forces that enter the area into a stand still. With his bureaucracy skills. Take the foul air of argument technique. Suddenly, the leaders or leader is bickering with his allies over what to do. The proud order of the imperial fleet can fall apart. Even space marines might end up fighting against each other again.

I know, you may think I am underestimating the perseverance of the imperium to follow orders, but I'm not. Solars are just that silly insane.

Actually, best way to stop the fleet, a single zenith. High performance and endurance. He/she does Respect Commanding Attitude and broadcasts himself to the entire fleet with a few other advanced solar charms/artifacts twilight's make. He/she then proceeds to perform for the entire audience, going on without food for generations. The war fleets that keep coming die from old age (And I do mean over the course of at least a couple 100 years).

In case you don't know, Respect Commanding Attitude forces whatever your audience may be to listen to you until your done, and may take no other actions, save for defending themselves if struck at. This is a good charm to get monologues in. I'm just looking at in the extreme.

MeklorIlavator
2007-12-28, 04:20 PM
Actually, best way to stop the fleet, a single zenith. High performance and endurance. He/she does Respect Commanding Attitude and broadcasts himself to the entire fleet with a few other advanced solar charms/artifacts twilight's make. He/she then proceeds to perform for the entire audience, going on without food for generations. The war fleets that keep coming die from old age (And I do mean over the course of at least a couple 100 years).

In case you don't know, Respect Commanding Attitude forces whatever your audience may be to listen to you until your done, and may take no other actions, save for defending themselves if struck at. This is a good charm to get monologues in. I'm just looking at in the extreme.
So...he's effectively going to filibuster the invasion to death. Exalted is somewhat ridiculous.
You may have to do it for longer than centuries, however, as the space marines can live at least a millennium(possibly longer).

warty goblin
2007-12-28, 05:00 PM
How is a dude on the planet/plane surface talking to guys firing missiles from ships several thousand kilometers away? I don't think that really counts as an audience somehow. And even if they can tie up one fleet, just send another to the other side of the planet. The thing about WH40K is that they always have more resources, and once the first fleet gets tied up, they'll just send another, or fire off one of those nifty Warp torpedoes that move everything on the planet surface into the Warp. Sure it might kill the fleet as well, but ships can be rebuilt.

Gungnir
2007-12-28, 05:14 PM
I'm sure I've seen an artifact, sorcery, or charm that allows for mass speeches. I think I'm gonna go with PF here and vote Diplomancer FTW. Even if they don't die of old age, there's basic needs they wouldn't be able to take care of, not to mention the hundred years of preparation for a massive strike as soon as the guy stops. That is, if they haven't been completely brainwashed yet.

Sure! Send them into the Warp! As far as I can tell, it's pure chaos, yes? Solars can use charms to shape it into whatever they desire. they could rebuild their dimension there, given enough time. Not to mention that they have access to the Wyld on their own, and can whip up anything they need out of it.

Poison_Fish
2007-12-28, 05:29 PM
How is a dude on the planet/plane surface talking to guys firing missiles from ships several thousand kilometers away? I don't think that really counts as an audience somehow. And even if they can tie up one fleet, just send another to the other side of the planet. The thing about WH40K is that they always have more resources, and once the first fleet gets tied up, they'll just send another, or fire off one of those nifty Warp torpedoes that move everything on the planet surface into the Warp. Sure it might kill the fleet as well, but ships can be rebuilt.

Except, again, your thinking in small scale. When thinking of Exalted, you must think on a grandiose scale. Which means they could quite easily reach out to every mortal being across vast distances with a single charm.

And your ignoring time as well. The time it takes those fleets to get there. That's one solar holding up whatever comes in, there are still another 149/299 depending on what age your in doing other things during this time.

I may have to take a page from Gurren Lagann to explain how exalted works. "Surpass the impossible and kick reason to the curb".

It essentially turns into a Rule of Cool vs. Grim and Dark.

Tweekinator
2007-12-28, 05:34 PM
All these spiffy Exalted tricks are cool and all, and would probably buy them some time against the Imperium or any one faction, but this is all of 40K. All the Orks, Eldar, Tyranids, Chaos, Necrons, Tau and the Imperium; all with their world destroying powers, technology and/or demigods.

And just to argue against the diplomacy tactic, the citizens of the Imperium are practiced at closing their minds to ward of the influence of chaos, those fallen to chaos probably won't be let go of by the chaos gods so easily, and I'm pretty sure the other races also have some defense against mind control.

warty goblin
2007-12-28, 05:41 PM
The Exalted still need to know about the fleet of whatever wants to kill them, which as I pointed out, don't exactly have to be in the near neighborhood to do so.

And the Warp isn't so much chaos as insanity, anger, fear, human emotion essentially. Its also terrifyling destructive, a trained pysker who makes a mistake can literally explode because of it. Direct transfer to the Warp without any sort of protection or lifeline, like is built into Warp going warships and provided by the Astromicon, is certain death, most likely a very horrible certain death.

The orks have a weapon that makes use of this. I can't remember what its called, but they take a grot, teleport it into the Warp for just an instant, less than a heartbeat, then teleport it into their enemies' body cavity. The grot is so horrified and overcome by its tiny glimpse of the Warp that it goes completely insane and literally rips its new home (the target of the gun) apart from the inside out. Imagine what more than that moment of exposure would do. By the time a person realized that they were in the Warp, they would no longer have a mind to shape it with, even if they could.

Poison_Fish
2007-12-28, 05:42 PM
But then, it isn't quite mind control either. It can be, but it can also be pure charisma abilities turning people over. Granted, solars also have versions of such abilities known as perfects. Resistance nothing, the solars just do it. They parry the missiles. They perfectly make people like them. They perfectly do this or that. The only thing that can counter a perfect is another perfect, which the 40K universe lacks. They just have a lot of numbers to make up for it. (Vaguely, this reminds me of how Lunars compare to Solars mechanicly, since Lunars are lacking the perfects or semi-perfects, but can have huge numbers, in terms of mechanics, but that's neither here nor there.)

Also, the big thing I see here if we try to fit a massive universe into a smaller one.

1. I see creation can hold out indefinitely if it's the first age. (With a lot of random justification I can get into, some of it has already been explained, but I have to vamoose in a bit of time, so I'll have to get in the deeper details later.)

2. You can only fit so much grim and dark war in the grim and dark future into one grim and dark area of space.

Oh, for my own clarifications sake, I do play 40k quite a lot, along with Exalted. I run a Black Templars army, an Eldar farseer council army, and a very small Tau and ork(If you can ever call it "small") army.


The Exalted still need to know about the fleet of whatever wants to kill them, which as I pointed out, don't exactly have to be in the near neighborhood to do so.

Which again, through an advance version of "I don't get surprised, ever" charms and "I see it, no matter what" charms, they'll know about the fleet.


The orks have a weapon that makes use of this. I can't remember what its called, but they take a grot, teleport it into the Warp for just an instant, less than a heartbeat, then teleport it into their enemies' body cavity. The grot is so horrified and overcome by its tiny glimpse of the Warp that it goes completely insane and literally rips its new home (the target of the gun) apart from the inside out. Imagine what more than that moment of exposure would do. By the time a person realized that they were in the Warp, they would no longer have a mind to shape it with, even if they could.

Perfect parry/counter attack with a bow. Now the grot is inside the one who fired it. Yes, it doesn't make realistic sense. It works.

Tweekinator
2007-12-28, 05:53 PM
But if it's the first age of Creation and they get all those cool war machines and relics, then 40K should be allowed pre-heresy characters and such.

warty goblin
2007-12-28, 06:01 PM
Which would mean that they have the Emperor and the Primarchs, who are basically walking, planet-killing win conditions.

Poison_Fish
2007-12-28, 06:05 PM
Which would mean that they have the Emperor and the Primarchs, who are basically walking, planet-killing win conditions.

Which again, so are the solars. There are just more of them.

Selrahc
2007-12-28, 06:41 PM
And the Warp isn't so much chaos as insanity, anger, fear, human emotion essentially. Its also terrifyling destructive, a trained pysker who makes a mistake can literally explode because of it. Direct transfer to the Warp without any sort of protection or lifeline, like is built into Warp going warships and provided by the Astromicon, is certain death, most likely a very horrible certain death.

Well in my view, the warp most certainly is chaos. Pure undiluted chaos, which gets warped and denatured into any sort of form because of the thoughts and emotions of sentient beings, while still remaining really... chaotic(Hence the dangers if you try and mess with it).

Gungnir
2007-12-28, 06:48 PM
Also, on the topic of seeing WH40k coming, that's pretty much the Sidereal's job. You know, the whole interpreting the fabric of fate.

Here's how I see this going down:
1. Sidereals figure out something is going to happen, anywhere from 1-500 years in advance.
2. Prepare maybe 20 solars to cover the planet, reflecting or otherwise stopping all incoming fire. Actually, make it rotating shift of 50, they'd probably want some time to see their families, yes?
3. Lunars take care of any ground troops, with or without magical weaponry.
4. Anyone not contributing to direct defense of the planet contributes research to the Final Answer (see 5)
5. Final Answer is unleashed. It could be anything. Massive indestructible warship(s), giant cannons of doom, impenetrable defense system, moving enemy fleets into Elsewhere/black hole/mother-in-law's, moving their solar system into Elsewhere/Yu-Shan/mother-in-law's, a gigantic memory wiper from Men in Black, gravity manipulation, aneurysm cannon, scrolls of genocide, forcecage + cloudkill, permanent suspended animation gun, tricking them into stealing from the shopkeeper, go aggro on each other, making them botch rolls, so on, so forth, etc, etc, and whatnot. Doesn't matter what they need to do it, doesn't matter how long, they can build it.

Edit: Oh, and terrestrials just sit around and twiddle their thumbs. Noone likes them anyways. :smalltongue:

Rutee
2007-12-28, 07:17 PM
I will contest one thing; That the Sidereals will see it coming. Remember, their foresight does not work on anything not written into the Loom of Fate; This includes Exalted's own Underworld.

It won't matter, of course; Poison Fish has already explained how a Newbie Zenith will defeat the entire invasion fleet (It's like Macross). Just to up the ante, one could combo Respect Commanding Attitude with Husband Seducing Demon Dance and get quite a few of the army on their side. For the person who pointed out age, if a Celestial Exalted looks old, they are older then the God Emperor of Man (Or roughly as old, at least).

Also, we seem to have been assuming a defensive war on the Exalted's part. Three Words: Realm Defense System. This is the thing that chucks out a nigh-infinite number of Fair Folk out of the Realm with a thought.

Poison Fish, I believe it was, also hinted at Bureacracy Charms. Which combined with the right Stealth Charms should pretty much shut down the /entire/ Imperium, right off the bat.

Also, Age of Sorrows can win. 1 word: Falafel/Faffle/FaFL. FaFL is pretty much a walking "I Win" button against anything that isn't an experienced group of solars. I seem to recall, in 1e, he had a /persistent perfect/ defense...

also, Re: Orbital Bombardments. Why waste Solars? Use Terrestrials and Portentous Comet Defense. Anything but a Psyker's psychicness should qualify as non-magical, so they're auto-parried.

Poison_Fish
2007-12-28, 07:28 PM
Also, Age of Sorrows can win. 1 word: Falafel/Faffle/FaFL. FaFL is pretty much a walking "I Win" button against anything that isn't an experienced group of solars.

Not only that, but our pita boy also has Princess Magnificently unneeded long name, a second death lord, following him around.

Least not forget that even the weakest death lords, including ones that can't read, can spend just a smidgeon of their energy and instantly kill any "ordinary mortal" in sight. Granted, "Ordinary" can be taken many ways, but considering how death lords could reasonably have the ability to open up their line of sight to many places, especially once you consider the uses of sorcery or necromancy, that is rather frightening.

Rutee
2007-12-28, 07:39 PM
Oh goody gumdrops, somebody else noticed that MoW has no dots in Lore. Yay XD

What about tossing the Lover Clad in a Really Long Name at them? I mean, I know Appearance 8 is no excuse, but that seems to be a pretty viable win strategy.. XD

For the uninitiated, the Lover Clad in the Raiment of Tears (This is a pretty par-for-the-course name, as Shown Here (http://www.thefreedomstone.com/index.php?s=7), especially in the little exposition thingy on the lower right. FaFL stands for "First and Forsaken Lion", incidentally.) Can pretty much pump her Appearance to a level where her image will /be burned into your mind/ for the rest of your unnatural existence. There was a quote somewhere on the vast intertubes that explained it very well, and very eloquently, but the intertubes are failing me at the moment, so meh.

Poison_Fish
2007-12-28, 07:46 PM
Considering some of the 40K fiction.. I think some inquisitors might like Lover a bit too much. Especially with that silly whips martial arts.

Hasivel
2007-12-28, 07:55 PM
All these spiffy Exalted tricks are cool and all, and would probably buy them some time against the Imperium or any one faction, but this is all of 40K. All the Orks, Eldar, Tyranids, Chaos, Necrons, Tau and the Imperium; all with their world destroying powers, technology and/or demigods. See, here's the thing. The Exalted Trick you're countering with the rest of the 40K universe is one Solar. You've just had to call in the other factions as backup for the Imperium to counter one person who's naked and not using their powers yet. And that Solar's less than 0.1% of the forces arrayed against the 40K universe.

Rutee
2007-12-28, 08:00 PM
Incidentally, I now hate you all. Need an Exalted game. I loves my DB game but I'd almost forgotten just how ridiculous the Solars are.

Poison_Fish
2007-12-28, 08:05 PM
Well, there was one that I did start on this board, and then another member took over for me because life got interesting for me. I think there may be one or two others out there.

I also have a group of friends who are scattered across the nation, so we play by chat. Works somewhat well. Otherwise, I only get to play on and off in person. When it's in person as well, I'm usually running.

And I love Dragon Bloods. Not playing all powerful is part of the joy too.

Archangel Yuki
2007-12-28, 08:16 PM
Uh... where does an Alpha level psychic do that? I think you're thinking of Alpha plus level. Which is pretty much just the emperor. And the destruction of a planet is not said to be easy, just unintentional.

*Snip*

Alpha level Psychics are described as beings of ultimate Psychic power. I can't remember what codex it is in, but Alphas have been known to destroy entire planets unintentionally with the amount of power that wield.

Oh, and the Emperor is an Alpha level Psychic. Alpha+ and Alpha++ are just theories. The closest we have to an Alpha+ is the chaos god of Psychic powers.

warty goblin
2007-12-28, 08:55 PM
Indeed, after about Alpha plus, the psyker scale starts running backwards, until you get to Omega +, which is Chaos God level. If an alpha plus level can destroy planets, an Omega + would be able to, I don't know, shatter galaxies or something.

And if we throw all of the WH40K galaxy at Exalted, the planet will literally be drowned in a sea of blood and shattered bodies, upon which the disciples of Khorne dance.

The problem with pitting a planet against a galaxy is that no matter how powerful the defenders, if they make even one mistake they are screwed. And something must be able to threaten Solars etc because Exalted is after all a role playing game and I'm assuming that it features a challange somewhere. If you play as these beings, they must have something that can threaten them right?

Poison_Fish
2007-12-28, 09:12 PM
And if we throw all of the WH40K galaxy at Exalted, the planet will literally be drowned in a sea of blood and shattered bodies, upon which the disciples of Khorne dance.

The problem with pitting a planet against a galaxy is that no matter how powerful the defenders, if they make even one mistake they are screwed. And something must be able to threaten Solars etc because Exalted is after all a role playing game and I'm assuming that it features a challange somewhere. If you play as these beings, they must have something that can threaten them right?

Again, creation is not a planet. Also, you can't fit all the 40k universe in there. Has to go in waves, and creation can hold out indefinitely. Not to mention any strategy the 40k verse attempts to employ will get mucked up by a single night or eclipse caste.

In terms of challenge, yes. Things that are a challenge are beings of equal power. Solars and Abyssals fight. Death Lords are considered enemies to creation, considering they want to drag most of it down to the underworld (Or rather, the neverborn want that, the death lords want to be all powerful). Along with inter-party conflicts. Also, dealing with the fact that sometimes your just too powerful, that can be considered antagonistic.

Selrahc
2007-12-28, 09:18 PM
Indeed, after about Alpha plus, the psyker scale starts running backwards, until you get to Omega +, which is Chaos God level. If an alpha plus level can destroy planets, an Omega + would be able to, I don't know, shatter galaxies or something.


I have no idea why you just said indeed there, given that you pretty much contradicted everything the poster before you said.

(He says: There are no Alpha Pluses, the closest is the chaos god of magic, you say that there are loads of levels after alpha plus, and the chaos gods are Omega Plus. And you say indeed like you were agreeing with the other poster....)


Anyway. Wikipedia has the stuff about the levels of psykers. And it gels with what I know, and remmeber from the 4th edition rulebook.

Alpha level psykers are really rare. Alpha plus level psykers are the ones capable of easily destryoing battle titans, and killing planets.




The problem with pitting a planet against a galaxy is that no matter how powerful the defenders, if they make even one mistake they are screwed. And something must be able to threaten Solars etc because Exalted is after all a role playing game and I'm assuming that it features a challange somewhere. If you play as these beings, they must have something that can threaten them right?

Exalted beings get access to perfections. The ability to do stuff utterly without error. The only way a being with a perfection can fail at a task is if another being with a perfection goes up against them.

So yes, they can do these crazy things, and they can do them perfectly, and never ever make any mistakes.

The challenge comes from facing other crazy hyper exalts, and from facing the fair folk and the wild hunt and the other antagonists who share your power level. Facing innumerable armies with incredible tactics and magic weapons and superhuman troops ceases to be a challenge for them somewhere around mid power scale. (I think. I'm not a big expert on Exalted, since I've only played in one game of it, over a few sessions. But I remember my character was insanely badass, and we were starting characters. From what I remmeber of the rulebook, and from everything on this thread, it seems you increase in power at an exponential rate.)

Hasivel
2007-12-28, 09:21 PM
Indeed, after about Alpha plus, the psyker scale starts running backwards, until you get to Omega +, which is Chaos God level. If an alpha plus level can destroy planets, an Omega + would be able to, I don't know, shatter galaxies or something.

And if we throw all of the WH40K galaxy at Exalted, the planet will literally be drowned in a sea of blood and shattered bodies, upon which the disciples of Khorne dance.

The problem with pitting a planet against a galaxy is that no matter how powerful the defenders, if they make even one mistake they are screwed. And something must be able to threaten Solars etc because Exalted is after all a role playing game and I'm assuming that it features a challange somewhere. If you play as these beings, they must have something that can threaten them right?
Yes, something can threaten the Exalted. Basically. . . other Exalted (I'm including Fair Folk as Exalted here) and the Gods who created the universe. Pretty much everything else is a toy for the Exalted to play with and fight over.

Creation isn't a planet. It's a semi-level plane with terrain on it much like a planet would have. It has four poles at it's corners, a mountain the size of a continent in the center, and is bounded by the pure chaos of the Wyld on all sides. Above it is another plane, the sky, with stars painted on it. Most 40K tactics won't even work if they try to invade, f'rex you can't bombard Creation from orbit.

warty goblin
2007-12-28, 09:34 PM
Right, but if we use that form of creation we can't have any contest at all, since there's no way for WH40K to get to Creation and there's no way for anything on Creation to reach WH40K. Hence neither side wins or loses because neither side can fight the other. Its like asking whether or not the Australian Aboriginees could beat the Maya in a fight without giving either the ability to build trans-oceanic ships, a moot point.

Anyway, at this point I think assuming we ironed out the Creation issues, Exalted could probably survive, but probably not destroy the IoM, its just to big. I mostly got into this thread because I saw it to be underestimating the power of WH40K. Now that my task is done, I will depart.

Rutee
2007-12-28, 09:35 PM
The problem with pitting a planet against a galaxy is that no matter how powerful the defenders, if they make even one mistake they are screwed. And something must be able to threaten Solars etc because Exalted is after all a role playing game and I'm assuming that it features a challange somewhere. If you play as these beings, they must have something that can threaten them right?

I don't think you're grasping the concept here, honestly. We've been referring to "Perfect" defenses and attacks. This is not poetic, this is not player speak. This is a /fact of the universe/ that Solars are this insane(ly powerful too XD).

And yeah, pretty much. The challenge to a Solar is the /rest of Creation/. When one plays Exalted, you don't fight other universes; You fight the same universe. Part of the reason the WH40k universe is screwed is that they're apparently fighting a /united/ Creation, which is basically impossible. Along with some of the groups mentioned, the Terrestrial Exalted are antagonists now (They were once the footsoldiers and faceless grunt servants of the Solars and Lunars, until the Sidereals betrayed htem after foreseeing the effect of the Great Curse). There's the Primordials, who even Solars can't really hurt directly (Solars battled the Primordials through their various souls; Specifically, a Primordial has 7 souls or so which are the expressions of its being, and each of /those/ souls has 15 or so souls which are the individual facets of those expressions. Those are what are now called "Demons" (Along with the spawn of both) in Exalted, after the Primordials got chucked out. Which in itself required Autocthon and Gaia betraying them). Heck, Lunars are the fated mates (Oftentimes) of Solars and /they/ still fight each other now. The Age of Sorrows is a fallen age.


Well, there was one that I did start on this board, and then another member took over for me because life got interesting for me. I think there may be one or two others out there.

I also have a group of friends who are scattered across the nation, so we play by chat. Works somewhat well. Otherwise, I only get to play on and off in person. When it's in person as well, I'm usually running.

And I love Dragon Bloods. Not playing all powerful is part of the joy too.
WEll, more to the point, I'm /running/ the Dragonblooded game I mentioned.. Honestly, I rather like the game (It's something of a life story, of a pair of Dragonbloods from childhood on out. We're at the teen years still.. mostly because the players are still /really/ happy with the Heptogram XD) but I haven't really gotten to play a proper game of Exalted. I just obsess over it (Except Sidereals; Why would I /ever/ read about something that I can't play?) and love it terribly, and genuinely consider it the best Tabletop Roleplaying Game ever on the sheer basis of the fact that it works by and encourages awesome :P

Poison_Fish
2007-12-28, 09:51 PM
mmmm.. heptogram game. I've always wanted to play a kid/teen DB game. Just that most of my friends aren't interested in that.

I happen to like exalted a lot. Truthfully I've been missing Alternity, specifically the stardrive campaign, but I'm the one of the few who's still jazzed about Alternity, even though it's long gone.

/slows down derailing the train.

Yeah, I don't think any of us Exalted folk are under powering 40K. On the contrary, I think we know it's quite powerful. Exalted just happens to be in a category above it.

Rutee
2007-12-29, 01:25 AM
Heck, until I was reminded of /all/ the fun toys the Solars get, I thought WH40k would win. (This is why I need to find a game to play as a Celestial. Underrating Solars isn't cool ;.; ).

Honestly though? If there's no plot-unification of the WH40k universe, then yes, Exalted could probably beat it, if they can get an Eclipse to a world with any space traffic whatsoever. Any at all; From there, turn the entirety of the universe against each other. It's a cheesy-as-heck win, but it's a win.

Of course, it doesn't function at all if we assume that there's plot-immunity to it for purposes of this thread. At that point, well, I'm pretty sure Exalted could destroy the WH40k universe, it'd just take /so freaking long to do/ that it's not funny.

Eita
2007-12-29, 01:46 AM
All right, I have no idea what Exalted is, so I'll just spout facts on 40K. Tell me if you're confused on something.

tyckspoon
2007-12-29, 01:55 AM
From there, turn the entirety of the universe against each other. It's a cheesy-as-heck win, but it's a win.

Like they aren't already all fighting each other anyway? I suppose you could mean disrupting the internal unity of each faction (or increasing it, in the case of the Orks). The only reason the 'good guys' like the Imperium, Eldar, and Tau survive is that they stand largely united against the external threats, including each other. The Imperium would shatter into millions of independent (and easily destroyed) planets if you broke down the central bureaucracy. The Tau would devolve back into barbarism if you removed or corrupted the Ethereal Caste. The Eldar are a dying race already, and you'll get rid of them almost instantly if you pervert the psychic protections that keep them out of Chaos's sight.

puppyavenger
2007-12-29, 10:58 PM
Are we talking the full power of 40k here? As in, void dragon whos yawn when he walks up could proably kill holy terra/ Tyranid main fleet that probably has engh gaunts to cover every world in the galaxy/ Chaos gods and every (inifnite) demon/orks who literly grow in numbers and power from war ect.

LordVader
2007-12-29, 11:02 PM
I know this isn't productive, but the mass of Imperium vs _______ is getting a little annoying. There are other sci-fi universes, people!:smalltongue:


How about Warhammer Fantasy versus Exalted? Easier to compare, and no Exterminatus.

Reasons for 40k's victory:
Chaos. 'Nuff said.
C'tan are unto gods as themselves, and the Decievers can sow doubt and deciet among the enemy.
The strongest psykers are pretty damn powerful.
Exterminatus.
Tyranid gribbliness will simply overwhelm you until you run out of spells and are eaten.
The Imperium can throw away a thousand men to kill one Exalted and still come out on top.
There's a million Space Marines, a thousand Grey Knights and a large number of Adeptus Sororitas, and they're all tough customers.
There's thousands more CSM.

Rutee
2007-12-29, 11:22 PM
Glad you joined us! But uh, you're not adding anything meaningful; Like, literally, this has all been addressed already.

Chaos is like the Wyld, except Chaos is /less/ actively evil. Exalted can shape Wyld with a thought and a Charm into being what effectively amounts to an infinite amount of any resource, including living beings.

Judging by what I'm seeing on Wikipedia, the Primarchs seem to be stuck with Informed Tactical Ability (Anyone got the novelizations? I'd love to be wrong on this; I HATE Informed Tactical Ability), and at any rate even then are beneath the tactical awesomeness that is a Solar General.


The strongest psykers are pretty damn powerful.
They're significantly less in number then the Celestial Exalted, and in point of fact, less powerful. The Alpha Plus level that's crazy rare might be above a non-Solar, but they seem to be beneath Solars. And Dragonblooded/Terrestrials can dogpile Solars, so...


C'tan are unto gods as themselves, and the Decievers can sow doubt and deciet among the enemy.
Integrity Charms, Awareness Charms, Socialize Charms. I know your lie before you even speak it, and make you believe in something even more ludicrous

Eclipse Charms: Not only do I turn you on your brother of 25 years, but I destroy the infrastructure that your entire organization relies upon.

Night Charms: I do the above without you even realizing I'm there :D


Tyranid gribbliness will simply overwhelm you until you run out of spells and are eaten.
Who runs out of Essence in Exalted? well, I guess an uninspired player, but provided I keep the awesome flowing, I can keep spamming Charms to kingdom come. As long as I start the fight with Flow Like Blood or Fivefold Bulwark Stance or any of the other Scenelong defenses, you're not going to overwhelm me with peons. A Chaos God is a bad choice; Entity of Darkness means that Solars can swing some pretty nasty stuff at them. If they weren't evil, though, or if they were facing off with A Lunar or perhaps Siddie, they should do pretty well. Then again, Lunars have spent longer then the 40k universe's existence hanging out in the Wyld, with the Fair Folk. And they're (mostly) fine...

LordVader
2007-12-29, 11:27 PM
Oh, the gaunts aren't there to overwhelm you, they're there to tire you out and essentially die to wear you down. You should only worry when the big beasties start showing up. :P Hierophants should at least worry even a ridonkulously powerful spellcaster. Especially if they have Zoanthropes in attendance.

To be honest, the Chaos Gods wouldn't be able to do anything because they can't get out of the Warp. It is worth pointing out that you would not be able to permanently dispatch any of the demons though.

Just as a question, how many Celestial Exalted are there? Also, do Exalted have any means of space travel, or any means of stopping planetary bombardment/Exterminatus?

ZeroNumerous
2007-12-29, 11:29 PM
Integrity Charms, Awareness Charms, Socialize Charms. I know your lie before you even speak it, and make you believe it.

Eclipse Charms: Not only do I turn you on your brother of 25 years, but I destroy the infrastructure that your entire organization relies upon.

Night Charms: I do the above without you even realizing I'm there :D

And? They unravel you from existence. You die. Lie or no.

Eclipse: Fail. Like they care about one another. The Outsider alone has eaten countless C'tan.

Night: Complete and utter mastery over the material world. If you exist, they feel you. Unless there is a Charm to wink out of existence, then you're SOL. And if there is, then you can't affect them anyway.

Any Exalted what-so-ever can be defeated by a sheer amount of Orks. Diplomacy doesn't work because they don't want to talk, and they have enough guys attacking you that splitting up your die pool to defend means at very least a million or more are going undefended.

Rutee
2007-12-29, 11:34 PM
And? They unravel you from existence. You die. Lie or no.
Immunity to Everything Technique (Or Seven Shadows Evasion. Or Heavenly Guardian Defense.) I parry your unravelling. No, it doesn't make sense, but I do it anyway. That's how the Rule of Cool functions.



Eclipse: Fail. Like they care about one another. The Outsider alone has eaten countless C'tan.
Uh, no. Socialize/Presence Charms. 5 dots in Presence alone pretty much says "You can convert people who have been taught for the last 500 years that you are evil incarnate and that YOU PERSONALLY must die to your loyal servants". A race of sociopaths is easy, by comparison.


Night: Complete and utter mastery over the material world. If you exist, they feel you. Unless there is a Charm to wink out of existence, then you're SOL. And if there is, then you can't affect them anyway.
/quote]
That's pretty much what upper level Stealth Charms amount to, actually, but not the point..

[quote]Any Exalted what-so-ever can be defeated by a sheer amount of Orks. Diplomacy doesn't work because they don't want to talk, and they have enough guys attacking you that splitting up your die pool to defend means at very least a million or more are going undefended.
You haven't read Exalted, nor are you reading posts. Flow Like Blood/Fivefold Bulwark means I /do not split dice pools on defense/.

To put this into perspective: I tell Onslaught Penalties to go to hell. I can defend 10, 100, 1000, 1,000,000, or an INFINITE number of attacks that they face my full, and rather sizable, I might add, defense pool.

warty goblin
2007-12-29, 11:37 PM
Ah yes, the Necrons. If they awoke and decided to kill the plane of Exalted as a unified body in all of their might, I seriously doubt they could be stopped. For one thing, they can't actually be killed, they just reform and come back. You might, might be able to fight them to a standstill, but they cannot be actually, as far as is known, destroyed and hence they can continue their assault eternally, and the defenders can only afford one mistake before they're dead (yes, I know they can do things perfectly, but eventually somebody is going to do something stupid and eat a gauss flayer where the sun don't shine. A person could be able to drive a car perfectly, it doesn't mean that they can't get killed in a traffic accident). The bit where they want to kill every living thing in the galaxy down to bacteria may also present a problem.

And the Wyld being more evil than the warp? Given the nature of the warp I seriously doubt that...also, is it just me, or is saying that the Solars get to shape the Warp because its sorta like something that they shape, but don't suffer any of the risks of warp exposure something of a double standard?

Iethloc
2007-12-29, 11:38 PM
Someone who senses everything that exists? No problem. The Exalted just has to learn how to not exist for a short amount of time. I know of at least two separate charms that accomplish something to this effect.


And what's been talked about for Exalted here isn't even the most powerful stuff. All you need is one...just ONE Solar or Sidereal who knows even ONE Sidereal Martial Arts style.

There's one Charm that allows the Martial Artist to perfectly defend himself against everyone but one in an entire attacking swarm, and then counterattack the one who dared to touch him. And another that allows him to strike one person, and have it hurt everyone who's allied with him within many miles.

And that's just one style. And it's not even the most powerful one.

Another allows a person to literally shatter reality, and yet another allows one to alter EVERYONE'S perception of reality (even creating a new world for everyone to fight in that happens instantly in reality's time, even if the fighting goes on for years there), and ANOTHER allows one to MAKE diseases that put the Black Death to shame, even right there on the spot!

Just get a small team of these Exalted, and reality doesn't matter anymore. They do whatever they want, and the very Gods themselves would be afraid to touch them. With their Martial Arts, they don't punch people. They shatter their minds and bodies, devour their souls (literally, seriously) and, if the fancy takes them, control the bodies of the survivors.

This is the equivalent to Epic Levels in D&D, and Exalted is on a much, much higher level of power than D&D in the first place.

LordVader
2007-12-29, 11:40 PM
Being able to fend off an infinite amount of attackers isn't going to help when your planet gets Exterminatused or obliterated from orbit. Failing that, the C'tan can suck the life out of the system's star and leave. Win for 40k.:smallbiggrin:

The Necrons at their full power would indeed steamroller over the Exalted eventually. All it takes is one Gauss Flayer and you're gone. Add that to the fact that the Necrons will have a huge numbers advantage, and it's looking pretty good for them. That's not even mentioning the stuff they have that's only hinted at in the books so far.

Necrons are also immune to all of your mind tricks, and Exalted have no knowledge of how to protect themselves from daemons.

ZeroNumerous
2007-12-29, 11:42 PM
Immunity to Everything Technique (Or Seven Shadows Evasion. Or Heavenly Guardian Defense.) I parry your unravelling. No, it doesn't make sense, but I do it anyway. That's how the Rule of Cool functions.

Parrying requires a dice pool to parry against. This just happens. You auto-die. It's like the ST saying you lose.


Uh, no. Socialize/Presence Charms. 5 dots in Presence alone pretty much says "You can convert people who have been taught for the last 500 years that you are evil incarnate and that YOU PERSONALLY must die to your loyal servants". A race of sociopaths is easy, by comparison.

Ever tried to convert a Star incarnate? Each C'tan is like The Unconquered Sun before he decided to weaken himself to Exalt people. You fail. Why? Because you can't possibly understand what they think. You can't possibly fathom their intelligence. Whatever excuse you wanna make, it doesn't matter. They can't lose, simply because it's impossible for a C'tan to die. It'd have to be living to die.


That's pretty much what upper level Stealth Charms amount to, actually, but not the point..

Not really, because you can still be attacked. Meaning you still exist. Meaning they feel your existence.


You haven't read Exalted, nor are you reading posts. Flow Like Blood/Fivefold Bulwark means I /do not split dice pools on defense/.

Actually I have friends who play Exalted regularly(and one who plays it almost exclusively). I've heard the crazy stuff they pull off on just a hundred XP. I really don't care, but I'll give you that because I didn't care about the discussion of Orks anyway.


Someone who senses everything that exists? No problem. The Exalted just has to learn how to not exist for a short amount of time. I know of at least two separate charms that accomplish something to this effect.

Does it explicitly state that you are removed from Creation?

LordVader
2007-12-29, 11:43 PM
Also, keep in mind the difficulty of comparing two so different systems.

Necrons will basically be golems on steroids with an auto-kill beam in D&D rules. That come back to life. And that's only the basic trooper.:smalltongue:

You won't be able to convert Demons either, because if they have minds in the traditional sense, you're sure as heck not taking them over. They're unfathomable. The most powerful Demon Princes are nothing to sneeze at too.


If you remove yourself from existence, then logically you cannot cast a spell bringing yourself back, making that totally impossible.:smalltongue:

Iethloc
2007-12-29, 11:49 PM
Exalted do not follow logic. They follow the Rules of Cool. Their players just have to say "I want to exist now", and bam! The charm ends and they're right in front of you, shooting an unavoidable, unblockable beam of golden lightning.


As for not existing in creation, I looked back at these charms. The first says you still physically exist, but becomes nearly impossible to perceive. The other allows the Exalted to dematerialize while moving (it's one of the Sidereal Martial Arts), basically becoming a ghost.


And the Sidereals alone can ride on a dying horse in the rain while blindfolded, pin-pricked with arrows, and still lop off someone's head as a reflexive action (and succeed) while expertly parrying thousands of other arrows. And they hardly approach the power of the Solars.

Rutee
2007-12-29, 11:52 PM
And the Wyld being more evil than the warp? Given the nature of the warp I seriously doubt that...also, is it just me, or is saying that the Solars get to shape the Warp because its sorta like something that they shape, but don't suffer any of the risks of warp exposure something of a double standard?
It wasn't a double standard; The Wyld is roughly as, if not moreso, hazardous. Its hazards are just not a problem as a Solar (Surviving in it is even easier for a Lunar, but I don't think they can shape it quite so well).



Ever tried to convert a Star incarnate? Each C'tan is like The Unconquered Sun before he decided to weaken himself to Exalt people. You fail. Why? Because you can't possibly understand what they think. You can't possibly fathom their intelligence. Whatever excuse you wanna make, it doesn't matter. They can't lose, simply because it's impossible for a C'tan to die. It'd have to be living to die./quote]
Oh, Primordials, but weaker (Hint: Celestial Incarnae < Primordial, in raw power). Cool, a challenge, but one that'll lose.

[quote]Parrying requires a dice pool to parry against. This just happens. You auto-die. It's like the ST saying you lose.
Uh, no. You auto-parry whatever-it-is that just hurt you. Logic be damned. I don't think you're understanding here :P


Not really, because you can still be attacked. Meaning you still exist. Meaning they feel your existence.
No, you can't. You don't still exist. Someone else already pointed that out :P


The Necrons at their full power would indeed steamroller over the Exalted eventually. All it takes is one Gauss Flayer and you're gone. Add that to the fact that the Necrons will have a huge numbers advantage, and it's looking pretty good for them. That's not even mentioning the stuff they have that's only hinted at in the books so far.
HGD. SSE. It's not magical, so even a Dragonblooded can handle it with Portentous Comet Defense. And these are undead. They will die enterring a Zenith's presence.

LordVader
2007-12-29, 11:52 PM
But that's the problem. That's impossible, and complete crap.

Therefore, it is not valid as a comparison. I can say that the C'tan's just like "I want you to not exist" and POW, you're gone, but it's not possible.

So please don't try to use that as a reason for their superiority.:smalltongue:

And Necrons are NOT undead. At best, they are robots with living souls. So you lose.

You really don't understand the C'tan, do you? They used to be the size of stars. They are really beyond comprehension, and will not be dominated so easily as you seem to think.

Rutee
2007-12-29, 11:54 PM
But that's the problem. That's impossible, and complete crap.

Therefore, it is not valid as a comparison. I can say that the C'tan's just like "I want you to not exist" and POW, you're gone, but it's not possible.

So please don't try to use that as a reason for their superiority.:smalltongue:

You could, but the C'Tan are only as powerful as the EXalted's progenitor gods, apparently. And the Exalted killed the more powerful parents of their Progenitor Gods. We have basis for it :P

LordVader
2007-12-29, 11:54 PM
My point is that if you remove yourself from reality, you cannot cast a spell bringing yourself back. So that is not possible.

ZeroNumerous
2007-12-29, 11:57 PM
Oh, Primordials, but weaker (Hint: Celestial Incarnae < Primordial, in raw power). Cool, a challenge, but one that'll lose.

Uh, no. They're equivalent to a Celestial Incarnate.


Uh, no. You auto-parry whatever-it-is that just hurt you. Logic be damned. I don't think you're understanding here :P

Ok, it doesn't hurt you. You just fail to exist. You go away. It's quite literally like the ST saying "Creation Ends, Players Lose".


No, you can't. You don't still exist. Someone else already pointed that out :P

You still exist. Dematerialized would evade detection, but you're also dematerialized(and thus not a threat)


HGD. SSE. It's not magical, so even a Dragonblooded can handle it with Portentous Comet Defense. And these are undead. They will die enterring a Zenith's presence.

Grunts would be destroyed, but they'd reform so it doesn't matter. As for undead: No, they're not. They're constructs. Automatons, in Exalted terms.


As for not existing in creation, I looked back at these charms. The first says you still physically exist, but becomes nearly impossible to perceive. The other allows the Exalted to dematerialize while moving (it's one of the Sidereal Martial Arts), basically becoming a ghost.

The first doesn't matter then. You exist, they sense your existence. The second does, but you fail to affect the physical world anymore so it's not relevant.

Iethloc
2007-12-30, 12:03 AM
You still exist. Dematerialized would evade detection, but you're also dematerialized(and thus not a threat)

The first doesn't matter then. You exist, they sense your existence. The second does, but you fail to affect the physical world anymore so it's not relevant.

1. All they have to do is stop moving for a second, and then they rematerialize, and can immediately resume their overpowered shenanigans.

2. What part of "nearly impossible to perceive" did you not understand? A sufficiently powerful Sidereal (and since they live over 4,000 years, there are such beings) cannot be detected by anything short of a Solar who invested a bit of his time in Awareness charms to get Eye of the Unconquered Sun, which gives them perfect, infallible (as in END OF STORY) vision.


And then, in the same category as the charms that let you strike an entire alliance by hitting one guy, and becoming a perfect defensive juggernaught, there's a charm that lets you perfectly attack someone that can only (ONLY) be stopped by them giving up something near and dear to them as decided by the Martial Artist (like, say, not using any godly powers for a few seconds), as long as some reason can be made up for it.

Rutee
2007-12-30, 12:03 AM
Is that all? No, that's how the Charm works.

For the uninitiated..

A Charm is not a spell. A Charm enhances something you already know how to do, and makes it better. Graceful Crane Stance (The 'Best Charm in the Game') makes my already supernaturally awesome ability to balance on tiny things even better.

Upper level ones just take this to illogical extremes. Sometimes lower level ones too (As has been demonstrated with the Respect Commanding Attitude Filibuster).

LordVader
2007-12-30, 12:04 AM
Do these unlimited parries involve using any part of your body?

If so, you are done. You cannot think of this as a game system where you are good as long as you have 1 HP and parries will not hurt. If you parry a gauss weapon with a body part, you are disintegrated. If you try to parry a darklance or venom cannon with your arm, odds are you'll end up hurt from that, too.:smalltongue:

I doubt the ability of even magical armor to repel the strongest weaponry 40k has to offer.


And if this spell you're talking about involves removing yourself from existence, it cannot be used as you can't come back.:smalltongue:

ZeroNumerous
2007-12-30, 12:07 AM
2. What part of "nearly impossible to perceive" did you not understand? A sufficiently powerful Sidereal (and since they live over 4,000 years, there are such beings) cannot be detected by anything short of a Solar who invested a bit of his time in Awareness charms to get Eye of the Unconquered Sun, which gives them perfect, infallible (as in END OF STORY) vision.

What part of "perfect masters of reality" do you not understand? If it exists. if it's physical. If it's part of the material world. A C'tan can feel it and affect it.


And then, in the same category as the charms that let you strike an entire alliance by hitting one guy, and becoming a perfect defensive juggernaught, there's a charm that lets you perfectly attack someone that can only (ONLY) be stopped by them giving up something near and dear to them as decided by the Martial Artist (like, say, not using any godly powers for a few seconds), as long as some reason can be made up for it.

And? The C'tan lets you punch him. You blow up his physical form. He reforms in a second and he's alittle more angry. Congrats.

Iethloc
2007-12-30, 12:08 AM
Do these unlimited parries involve using any part of your body?

If so, you are done. You cannot think of this as a game system where you are good as long as you have 1 HP and parries will not hurt. If you parry a gauss weapon with a body part, you are disintegrated. If you try to parry a darklance or venom cannon with your arm, odds are you'll end up hurt from that, too.:smalltongue:

I doubt the ability of even magical armor to repel the strongest weaponry 40k has to offer.


And if this spell you're talking about involves removing yourself from existence, it cannot be used as you can't come back.:smalltongue:

Actually, the Exalted never, ever, EVER actually HURT themselves doing anything (unless the charm they're using happens to need sacrificing a bit of health, but those charms aren't the ones that let you parry perfectly), never get infections from wounds, and can seal bleeding wounds with a thought. And that's without charms, which are not spells.

And neither dematerialization nor walking outside of the perception of any being not considerably more powerful than you are actually make you not exist, but as far as anyone else is concerned, they do not exist.


@^: Then the Martial Artist can just "poison" the C'tan's soul (or soul equivalent) and devour it like a spider soon afterwards. Or he can simply choose to punch the C'tan's mind instead of his body. Total physical destruction is but one of an Exalted's many talents. For example, he can give the C'tan 10 extra successes on everything (and then instantly teleport away), which then go down by 1 every minute, even into the negatives, until the C'tan is a pathetic shell of what it once was (and most things you or I do have a whopping difficulty of 0, 1 or 2 under the Exalted system). This is completely and utterly permanent, unless the Martial Artist uses another, different charm to undo it. And they won't, since the C'tan's now horrible, horrible negative talent will drive them away first.

What amuses me the most about that little number is the fact that the victim will see perfection in everything they do, even as their own inept shenanigans ruin everything around them.


@V: Also, the perfect defense against everything except giant swarms (and getting to counterattack) is NOT a magical barrier. It's perfect, utterly perfect strategy brought into existence by use of the charm.

LordVader
2007-12-30, 12:09 AM
Another thing that's a bit unfair is that so far, 40k has had to cross over into Exalted mechanics.

Let's give some 40k mechanics a chance here too, hmmm?:smalltongue:

For example, you can't Instant Death a C'tan in one hit. C'tan also ignore all defensive barriers, magic or otherwise. Good-bye, magic armor/forcefields.

Rutee
2007-12-30, 12:10 AM
Grunts would be destroyed, but they'd reform so it doesn't matter. As for undead: No, they're not. They're constructs. Automatons, in Exalted terms.
Creatures of Darkness, more importantly.


If so, you are done. You cannot think of this as a game system where you are good as long as you have 1 HP and parries will not hurt. If you parry a gauss weapon with a body part, you are disintegrated. If you try to parry a darklance or venom cannon with your arm, odds are you'll end up hurt from that, too.
Oh god, this isn't going to go anywhere. You're not intellectually grasping the concept of Rule of Cool, else you're choosing to ignore it. Just as we choose to ignore your grim n' gritty non-awesome :P


I doubt the ability of even magical armor to repel the strongest weaponry 40k has to offer.
I'm pretty sure that if Solars were to wear their best possible armor, it would put Space Marine armor to shame. However, Armor is pretty irrelevant compared to Resistance Charms...


And if this spell you're talking about involves removing yourself from existence, it cannot be used as you can't come back.
What we have here is a failure to communicate...


Another thing that's a bit unfair is that so far, 40k has had to cross over into Exalted mechanics.

Let's give some 40k mechanics a chance here too, hmmm?

For example, you can't Instant Death a C'tan in one hit.
I don't think WArhammer can handle Exalted fluff, as you're not providing anything that Warhammer mechanics actually cover that is perfection incarnate. Exalted mechanics can handle Warhammer fluff though, hence the use them..

LordVader
2007-12-30, 12:11 AM
If the Exalted universe is based around the Rule of Cool, and it's being used in a versus comparison, I'm going to have to leave this discussion. You simply can't use that as a valid argument.:smalltongue:

I'm grasping the concept, it just doesn't pan out for me.

And what exactly is this "perfection incarnate?"

Rutee
2007-12-30, 12:16 AM
That's pretty much how any non-newbie Charm for a Solar ends up working. Varying degrees of Perfection. You perfectly dodge, leaving any strike, period, in your wake. You perfectly attack, shattering any defense (Before you ask, Perfect Defenses beat Perfect Attacks, but Perfect Defenses have one additional flaw, based on the Virtues).

Anyway, sorry, but someone put it better earlier. Rule of Cool tends to beat Grim and Gritty, because Rule of Cool by definition doesn't care about all that extra stuff that Grim n' Gritty bogs itself down with.

ZeroNumerous
2007-12-30, 12:20 AM
<Snip>

Fail. It has no soul. Quite literally. C'tan don't exist in the Warp. Mind: C'tan has no physical mind to affect. It's body is meaningless metal.

Here's the problem. You're using rules. Solars have rules, that's nice. They have things they can do that are insane and impossible. Thats cool too.

C'tan don't have rules. You don't see C'tan stated out in the Necron Codex. For a good damn reason. Compare your Solar versus the Storyteller. Who's going to win? Now compare every single Solar, Sidereal, Lunar, Automaton, Abyssal, Dragonblooded, and Heroic Mortal in existence to the Storyteller. Guess who wins. Ya, C'tan are like that.

EDIT: Grim and Gritty? Rule of Cool? C'tan are beyond that, because they just win. Ya, it's like that.

Rutee
2007-12-30, 12:29 AM
Here's the problem. You're using rules. Solars have rules, that's nice. They have things they can do that are insane and impossible. Thats cool too
Solars make, shatter, and remake rules, yes..

It's funny how much you talk up the C'Tan, because Wikipedia seems to disagree with you..


C'tan, being solely of the immaterial realm, were extremely vulnerable to psychic based weaponry and feared psychic weapons so much that they banded together to split the warp from real space. It was never completed due to the growing cataclysm in the warp.

Weak to Wyld/Warp? Awesome, just go recruit some Fair Folk. Why waste my time on something like that?

ZeroNumerous
2007-12-30, 12:32 AM
Solars make, shatter, and remake rules, yes..


That's pretty much how any non-newbie Charm for a Solar ends up working. Varying degrees of Perfection. You perfectly dodge, leaving any strike, period, in your wake. You perfectly attack, shattering any defense (Before you ask, Perfect Defenses beat Perfect Attacks, but Perfect Defenses have one additional flaw, based on the Virtues).

Obviously the quote is you. This implies a system of rules. Limits to guide what a player can/can't do.

These limits are what makes Solars less than C'tan.

Solars have dice and a loose system. An ST can still kill a group of Solars. Players can win or lose.

Playing with C'tan is like playing Solitaire. Eventually, you win.

EDIT: Ya. They can't defend against something that doesn't exist.

Problem!

Fair Folk have to come into Creation to fight a C'tan. They auto-lose in Creation.

Rutee
2007-12-30, 12:38 AM
You don't actually listen to those Exalted players talk about Exalted, do you?


Obviously the quote is you. This implies a system of rules. Limits to guide what a player can/can't do.


Playing with C'tan is like playing Solitaire. Eventually, you win.
No, you're pretty much wrong, entirely, based on Wikipedia... The C'Tan are < Primordials. Primordials got whacked by Solars. Heck, your C'Tan have /definite weaknesses/. That puts them at beneath a Solar..

Iethloc
2007-12-30, 12:41 AM
C'tan are vulnerable to psychic attacks, you say? Well, it just so happens that the Martial Art that alters perception, unsurprisingly, uses attacks upon the mind to do so. That means it is psychic in any setting where this is In-Flavor (including Warhammer, apparently), meaning such Martial Artists may not be able to tear apart a C'tan physically, but can reduce them to nothing mentally. In fact, just Basic Solars have Performance Charms that cause anyone who listens to them (which they have to, if the Solar knows how to use their charms) to become utterly infatuated with them. Thus, the C'tan would likely convert to the side of Exalted, whether anyone likes it or not. Except for the C'tan themselves, who would be permanently deluded into liking this change.

And since the C'tan seem to be so physically powerful, it looks like the forces of Warhammer 40k would have quite a battle on their hands. Unless these Psykers in Warhammer also know how to use mind control, in which case control over the C'tan would be handed back and forth, which effectively nullifies their threat to everyone.

tyckspoon
2007-12-30, 12:43 AM
Fail. It has no soul. Quite literally. C'tan don't exist in the Warp. Mind: C'tan has no physical mind to affect. It's body is meaningless metal.

Here's the problem. You're using rules. Solars have rules, that's nice. They have things they can do that are insane and impossible. Thats cool too.

C'tan don't have rules. You don't see C'tan stated out in the Necron Codex. For a good damn reason. Compare your Solar versus the Storyteller. Who's going to win? Now compare every single Solar, Sidereal, Lunar, Automaton, Abyssal, Dragonblooded, and Heroic Mortal in existence to the Storyteller. Guess who wins. Ya, C'tan are like that.

EDIT: Grim and Gritty? Rule of Cool? C'tan are beyond that, because they just win. Ya, it's like that.

The C'tan are capable of causing effects in the universe. Therefore, they have something of themselves involved in the universe. Whatever that is, there is an Exalt that will be able to find it and attack it. They also have personalities and desires- witness the events that lead to the fracturing of the C'tan's domination in the first place. Therefore, they are potentially subject to diplomacy, and there is an Exalt that can exploit that. The C'tan are vulnerable to psychic and magical attacks (they're the same thing in 40k, afterall); the Exalted universe is dripping in magic. The C'tan *are* operating on a power scale an order of magnitude or more above most of the 40k universe, but so is the Exalted Creation. They can deal with that.

And there have been statted C'tan in at least one edition of the Necron codex (or possibly a White Dwarf extension of said, I don't have it on hand)- the Deceiver and the Nightbringer were statted up as special characters.

warty goblin
2007-12-30, 01:12 AM
Well, if we're talking game mechanics, which are not canon in WH40K, I feel I must point out that in Dawn of War, a mere aspect of the nightbringer is completely unkillable. Not difficult to kill, not "reduces all damage to 1", it cannot be damaged by anything, and it regains health by killing stuff. That's an aspect (aka fragment, or not the whole beast) of the Nightbringer in a game where most powerful units perform way below fluff, which is canon.

Yes, the C'Tan were forced into slumber in ages past, but they took down/corrupted basically an entire galaxy and they survived. Much of what they fought did not. That's the best an entire galaxy of sentient life playing on their only weakness could do. The Exalted dudes, having no knowledge of, or ability to control the Warp, and being noticably less in number than an entire galaxy of godlike beings and actual gods, are royally screwed.
And if nothing else, the Nightbringer eats the sun.

Rutee
2007-12-30, 01:21 AM
Yes, the C'Tan were forced into slumber in ages past, but they took down/corrupted basically an entire galaxy and they survived. Much of what they fought did not. That's the best an entire galaxy of sentient life playing on their only weakness could do. The Exalted dudes, having no knowledge of, or ability to control the Warp, and being noticably less in number than an entire galaxy of godlike beings and actual gods, are royally screwed
The C'Tan fear psychic energy, going by what I've quoted. Fear. Becayse /it can end them permanently. Noticeably Less? THere don't seem to be that many C'Tan (Cite your source on C'Tan numbers, by all means. The Exalted Vanilla book and Sidereal Books precisely state how many celestials they are). In point of fact, I can see how /Terrestrials/ can defeat C'Tan (Oh Lore Charms, is there anything you can't do for me?). And Terrestrials are of much higher numbers.

Notwithstanding that these seem to be evil enough to qualify as Creatures of Darkness. Which Solars swing /banhammers/ at.


Well, if we're talking game mechanics, which are not canon in WH40K, I feel I must point out that in Dawn of War, a mere aspect of the nightbringer is completely unkillable. Not difficult to kill, not "reduces all damage to 1", it cannot be damaged by anything, and it regains health by killing stuff. That's an aspect (aka fragment, or not the whole beast) of the Nightbringer in a game where most powerful units perform way below fluff, which is canon.
It's been pretty demonstrated by the other Exalted/WH40k players that the strongest WH40k grunt is nothing before even a Terrestrial. Oh no! Enemies beneath a Terrestrial can't damage this guy! Surely he's unda- oh right, we haven't brought out anything meaningful yet.

Iethloc
2007-12-30, 01:25 AM
If we're assuming the Warp and the Wyld are anything alike, then the Solars, can, in fact, begin controlling the Warp with just a few tweaks. And apparently we're no longer talking about the damage dealing capabilities of the Exalted (which is very great. I once got 88 post-soak damage dice, where a real-life professional boxer's punch would have only 7 post-soak damage dice, at most). We're talking about how they can manipulate minds and personalities breathtakingly well. And since the Nightbringer, being a C'tan, is vulnerable to psychic attacks, the Exalted quickly neutralize him, like I've already mentioned.

edit: Ninja'd, and by four minutes, too. Must learn to post faster...

Gungnir
2007-12-30, 01:32 AM
Okay. Seriously guys. Let's cover some basic facts about any mid-power Solar:

1. If she doesn't want you to, you cannot touch her, physical or otherwise.
2. If she decides otherwise, she can block it, physical or otherwise.
3. If she decides otherwise again, it will not hurt her, physical or otherwise.
4. If she wants to, she will hit you with it, physical or otherwise.
4a. If she wants it to, it will hurt, as well.
5. She can force pure Chaos into whatever she desires.
6. Facts 1-4 may be applied at the same time, anytime, anywhere.
7. If any of the above do not solve a problem, she can research a solution.

Also, the only real cap on their power is their lifespan, but considering how much experience you get from a few fights (a session) they'd be getting so much experience that they would explode into full-fledged gods, unless they kept coming up with new charms/spells to spend their experience on.

Also, given Fact #5, the Realm is an expendable resource. Go ahead and blow it up. They can make it again, and someone's bound to have the Eidetic Recall merit, so it will be exactly the same/better.

warty goblin
2007-12-30, 01:32 AM
What I meant was the C'Tan were only stopped by an entire galaxy. The notably powerful entities in Exalted you said were around what, 1,000? Far less than a galaxy of Warp powering individuals. And as you said, the Warp is different than the Wyld, different enough apparently that accessing the Wyld does not count as accessing the Warp according to you. Going by that, the Wyld is probably different enough from the Warp to be just another bunch of flashing lights to a C'Tan.

Put it this way. Four C'Tan took on the galaxy and nearly won, crippling their opposition permenantly. Then they're content to sleep for 60 million years before trying again, a fight that, going by all indications, they will win as soon as they finish waking up.

And again, the Nightbringer eats the sun.

Iethloc
2007-12-30, 01:35 AM
A Solar perfectly parries on behalf of the sun. Or, right before the Nightbringer swallows it, FORCES him to pay attention as he does the Safety Dance, or whatever other performance he wants to do, and the Nightbringer has to sit there and watch it, because he's vulnerable to psychic attacks.

And while a Galaxy certainly outnumbers the entirety of the Exalted, you MUST see that they are far, far more powerful than one person, or, assuming all the Exalted are decently made, far more powerful than an entire galaxy.


@V: Don't be so quick to rule out "permanently". :smallwink:

Rutee
2007-12-30, 01:37 AM
Put it this way. Four C'Tan took on the galaxy and nearly won, crippling their opposition permenantly. Then they're content to sleep for 60 million years before trying again, a fight that, going by all indications, they will win as soon as they finish waking up.
I feel relatively confident that 4 experienced Solars could win the first time. The only thing that might be an issue is time scale.. I'm not doubting that the Solars could do it within their natural lifespans, but I don't think we as viewers would have the interest in watching past a certain point..

In response to the above..

Or The Unconquerred SUn parries for itself *Perfectly*. Not Permanently >.>

Gungnir
2007-12-30, 01:43 AM
Or The Unconquerred SUn parries for itself permanently.

That's a good point. We haven't even brought out our deities yet. Solar Exalted have a practical maximum Essence (raw magical power) of 10. What was Sun's estimated Essence again? You know, the guy who powers these people, while enjoying a leisurely game of chess with all his other godly buddies?


Or The Unconquerred SUn parries for itself *Perfectly*. Not Permanently >.>

I'd bet he could do both.

Edit: We are really ninja-ing the crap out of this thread, aren't we?

Rutee
2007-12-30, 01:46 AM
I lightly pointed out Falafel/Faffle/FaFL, just to show that the AGe of Sorrows (roughly analogous to the Post Horus-Heresy period, in terms of Solar Stature/Power vs. Imperium STature/Power) still has mondo-ass kickers while the Solars rediscover their PHENOMENAL COSMIC POWER.

But no, I don't think Gods have, as such, been directly introduced.


I'd bet he could do both.

Edit: We are really ninja-ing the crap out of this thread, aren't we?
I have a friend who has postulated that the Unconquerred Sun has Persistent Perfects, yes (Hence the name, Unconquerred Sun).

And yeah, we are.

Selrahc
2007-12-30, 05:48 AM
Put it this way. Four C'Tan took on the galaxy and nearly won, crippling their opposition permenantly. Then they're content to sleep for 60 million years before trying again, a fight that, going by all indications, they will win as soon as they finish waking up.

Well thats not true. It wasn't four C'Tan, it was quite possibly hundreds. They weren't alone, they had the aid of the incredibly advanced Necrontyr empire, who even before they found the C'Tan were holding their own quite successfully. And their foes weren't the entire galaxy. It was really just the Old Ones, and their minions. So really.. it was a samll race of powerful beings and their minions against the C'Tan and their minions.

Nowadays, there are only two C'Tan awake. Both of them are incredibly weak, and would lose to any competent Solar inside of ten seconds.

When the other two wake up, they might cause a bit more trouble. But its nothing that the Exalted verse can't deal with. They can't selectively delete people from reality... because they couldn't do that to the old ones. Kaela MEnsha Kaine fought the Nightbringer while both were at the height of their powers. According to the "snip from reality" view Kaine should hae been dead instnatly. But that didn't happen.

The Necrons themselves are negligible. They can't do a thing to Solars.

Poison_Fish
2007-12-30, 05:48 AM
It seems my Exalted buddies covered most of this, but a quick point I'd like to add.

The more grunts you send at the exalted, the easier it is for them to kill you. Cannon Fodder is changed into Stunt Fodder based on rule of cool. An infinite number of enemies? Cool, I can keep killing them in an infinite number of cool ways, thus getting more energy.

Also, it is assumed the primordials are far older then 1000. Hell, the specifics of how long the first/first age, not the golden age that is called the first age, is unknown for how long it's lasted.

And to be even more fair, the primordials aren't stated in exalted. They don't technically have a system of rules save for the fact that they are currently bound together to form the demon realm. But they are only that way because they were forced to agree with it. So, C'tan don't need a system? Yet the solars took out those types before. C'tan will just be another obstacle that will be overcome upon the Solar's epic story.

Illiterate Scribe
2007-12-30, 08:30 AM
Also, Age of Sorrows can win. 1 word: Falafel/Faffle/FaFL. FaFL is pretty much a walking "I Win" button against anything that isn't an experienced group of solars. I seem to recall, in 1e, he had a /persistent perfect/ defense...


I don't think you're grasping the concept here, honestly. We've been referring to "Perfect" defenses and attacks. This is not poetic, this is not player speak. This is a /fact of the universe/ that Solars are this insane(ly powerful too XD).

I think that if Exalted really has a crature that is literally immune to any attack that could harm it, or remove this protection, then I'm afraid that this is where we pack up and leave, fellow Imperials.

Even if we come up against an unstoppable force, we can only manage a draw.

It's like making the argument, in DnD, that since Boccob has both timestop and explosive runes as at-will spell-like abilities that ignore antimagic, he rules the multiverse, since he can deal arbitrarily large amounts of damage to everything without the possibility of anything harming him back.

However, if we are going to throw common sense out of the window, and play simply mechanically (which I would rather not do, but since you started it :smalltongue:) I believe that the rules-lawyer in me has a couple of ideas .... :smallamused:

1. What was the name of that Eldar special character who was a Spiritseer? Oh yeah, we'll have her armour. The one that lets you take a (note, non-invulnerable, but still special, save) LD test to avoid wounds. Then, find one of the many, many, characters' whose 'fearless' rule was poorly written enough to say they pass all LD tests. Congratulations, we now have our own perfect defence.

2. Why don't we bring in the Apocalypse ruleset? Vader, didn't, on one of the WH40K threads, you come up with the idea of the 3000pt army that consisted of nothing but 41 orbital strikes, 2 melta torpedoes, and a psyk-out strike? That was literally invincible because there's nothing there to fight? Well, I believe we've got another weapon in our arsenal.

Note - the purpose of this post is to show the futility of bringing game mechanics, such as 'I have the permanent perfectly parry ability, which in-game allows me to avoid all enemy attacks, therefore I am utterly invincible in every sense '.

Furthermore - I think we're over-estimating the power level (what? Under 9000?!!?) of C'tan here. Sure, they are star-gods, but I wouldn't put them on a par with the five powers of Chaos; I mean, they even perceive one Blackstone enough of a threat to commit a hueg fleet to destroying it, and fight alongside their ancestral enemies.

One last thing: I have a rejoinder to you 'rule of cool' types.
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f219/Hasoroth/blacktemplar.jpg

Rule of Awesome trumps Rule of Cool. :smallwink:

LordVader
2007-12-30, 09:19 AM
Solars make, shatter, and remake rules, yes..

It's funny how much you talk up the C'Tan, because Wikipedia seems to disagree with you..



Weak to Wyld/Warp? Awesome, just go recruit some Fair Folk. Why waste my time on something like that?

By doing that, you may destroy their necrodermis. That does not destroy the C'tan.

I also agree with that picture.:smallbiggrin:
40k is 300 in space, most definitely trumps Rule of "cool".

My solution to this problem is as follows:
Bring every single starship in the entire galaxy to the Exalted planet.
Commence bombardment.
Only stop when the ashes have been vaporized.

There we go! =D

Also, how are you going to stop the Nightbringer from eating the sun? You cannot go into space, therefore your spells cannot reach it, therefore you cannot stop the Nightbringer.

Poison_Fish
2007-12-30, 09:21 AM
On the note of the UCS(That's short hand for our permi-perfect defense boy, the god who the solars are derived from), he isn't stated out, so we aren't sure exactly what his powers are other then being damn good.

As well, with the way Exalted combat works in the face of perfects mechanically is that to defeat those who can throw them, you have to either know your opponent well enough to take advantage of something, throw more perfects around, or find an alternative solution to combat.

In fact, analyzing it mechanically (In 1E, I haven't gotten to far in exploring 2E to start running mechanic generalizations in my head), the whole nature of combat changes once you introduce perfects into the mix. It's just a different game, on a different level. But thems the mechanics.


(what? Under 9000?!!?)

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(too bad ASCII art doesn't work to well here, :( )

Also

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y286/Flib/exalted.jpg More Awesome, More cool, :smallbiggrin:

Gah, and again, Creation is not a planet, it's a flat plane. The world is flat. That and you couldn't fit every single ship. Along with the fact that we already countered the massive fleets and attacks earlier in this thread by a huge number of parries/realm defenses/tap dancing glowing men.


Also, how are you going to stop the Nightbringer from eating the sun? You cannot go into space, therefore your spells cannot reach it, therefore you cannot stop the Nightbringer.

The sun punches him back? This is the UCS here.

Skjaldbakka
2007-12-30, 09:26 AM
1. What was the name of that Eldar special character who was a Spiritseer? Oh yeah, we'll have her armour. The one that lets you take a (note, non-invulnerable, but still special, save) LD test to avoid wounds. Then, find one of the many, many, characters' whose 'fearless' rule was poorly written enough to say they pass all LD tests. Congratulations, we now have our own perfect defence.

That is all well and good, however, Exalted 'perfect defenses' are not a product of exploiting a loophole in the game mechanics. It is an explicit power that Exalted characters can achieve. It is something that Solars can do and are expected to do.

We aren't resorting to exploiting badly worded game mechanics. Solars just win. Note this is why I don't play Exalted. I tried once. I played a Night caste doctor. I made no attempt to be even remotely effective with my build. The game got to the point where I was ridiculously overpowered, even playing against type.

Now, Doc Means would die a lot if he tried to fight the IoM. The Dawn caste in the party, however . . . He was optimized.

LordVader
2007-12-30, 09:30 AM
Again, though, how do you stop the planet from being obliterated from orbit?:smalltongue:

Another problem we have here is that 40k characters are not "statted out", so we're making guesses at their power level that in all likeliehood are not accurate.

Tyrannosaurs in F-14's? Pfft.:smallbiggrin:

http://kofler.dot.at/40k/units/Imperial_Guard_Baneblade_Maximillian_Weisemann.jpg
Baneblades > all.

Poison_Fish
2007-12-30, 09:34 AM
Again, though, how do you stop the planet from being obliterated from orbit?:smalltongue:

Another problem we have here is that 40k characters are not "statted out", so we're making guesses at their power level that in all likeliehood are not accurate.

Tyrannosaurs in F-14's? Pfft.:smallbiggrin:

http://kofler.dot.at/40k/units/Imperial_Guard_Baneblade_Maximillian_Weisemann.jpg
Baneblades > all.


What orbit? There is no orbit around Creation. Also, they parry it, doesn't matter what it is, they parry it. Go back and read this thread.

I was just pointing out the stat thing since C'tan got brought into it.

http://wiki.rpg.net/images/a/aa/MPost11280-7353b559bd_o.jpg

Beware, there are a lot of these

LordVader
2007-12-30, 09:38 AM
What exactly is the range of this parry?

Skjaldbakka
2007-12-30, 09:40 AM
Again, though, how do you stop the planet from being obliterated from orbit?

This question has already been answered.

A recap:

The Exalted world is flat, which means there is no orbit. This, in turn, means that the IoM's fleet is airborne, not spaceborn. One Solar can defend an arbitrary amount of territory from an IoM barrage, (perfectly), while at the same time taking no damage, and sending every attack back at the IoM fleet with perfect accuracy, likely for increased damage above and beyond the normal damage the barrage would be dealing.

Exalted Social characters can just spontaneously convert the entire IoM fleet, and then make them better than they were before, and then send them back to destroy the second wave.

An exalted character could do the safety dance for 1000 years, and the IoM would not be able to do anything until it is done.


This is just a summary, go back and read over them yourself if you want a more detailed explanation of how that works.


What exactly is the range of this parry?

That depends on the range of the attack.

Gungnir
2007-12-30, 09:43 AM
Again, though, how do you stop the planet from being obliterated from orbit?:smalltongue:

We covered that one, remember? ...From a "make Creation into a planet" perspective, as well. (ninja'd!) about 20 solars at a time (I'm sure less could do it, but I'm just being safe) running around Creation reflecting it back at you. Even if you manage to come up with an unblockable attack, they'll just start using resistance charms and take it to the face, for no damage.


What exactly is the range of this parry?

If it is there, it will be parried.

LordVader
2007-12-30, 09:46 AM
I'd just like to point out that if the planet is flat, it's still going to have space above it. There's weider worlds than that in the Eye of Terror, and they're still spaceborne.

But yeah, if all of their spells have range and power like that it's going to end up a draw. 40k will just leave.:smallbiggrin:

Skjaldbakka
2007-12-30, 09:51 AM
Spells? We haven't brought those into play yet. Those are what we use to enable our Exalts to go on the offensive through space. IIRC, spells would have to be used to do that, because it would take much longer to develop a charm for space travel.

Of course, I could be wrong there. I never really got into the game due to its power level. I prefer games where you are just as likely to lose as you are to win.

LordVader
2007-12-30, 09:54 AM
How, exactly, does this setting work game-wise? If you're all so godly 1337 and unstoppable, how does the poor DM think up a challenge?

Just curious.:smalltongue:

Skjaldbakka
2007-12-30, 09:58 AM
I never did figure that out. It was fun for awhile, before we hit that power level. There was some political stuff that kept me entertained afterwards, but the game wound up falling apart.

Poison_Fish
2007-12-30, 09:58 AM
How, exactly, does this setting work game-wise? If you're all so godly 1337 and unstoppable, how does the poor DM think up a challenge?

Just curious.:smalltongue:

The challenge comes from other equally powered beings, a literal dog piling of slightly less powerful ones, and so on. Or yourself. White Wolf loves seeing players seethe with ungodly power and make the wrong decisions with it.

It really depends on how your ST runs things. I'm pretty sure I could keep a game interesting up until essence 7 or 8. And I may be able to do it at the pinnacle of power for exalted.

Then again, I like to play some of the weaker beings in the world. Dragon Blood, for instance. Who are more on par with the best space marines/other utterly strong people out there.

LordVader
2007-12-30, 10:05 AM
You could always just throw clones of themselves at the party, though that probably wouldn't be interesting.

If two being of equal power meet, is it just "parry,parry,parry" ?

Poison_Fish
2007-12-30, 10:10 AM
Cloning a solar wouldn't work. Their power comes from divine infusion. You'd just get the mortal version of the exalt. Or the cloning tank might explode from too much awesome. Something along those lines.

If beings of equal power meet, it's a lot of bantering as they keep exchanging blows at each other, with mixes of dodges, parries, soaking damage as forms of defense, along with heavy stunting, and possibly action music coming out of nowhere when combo's go off.

puppyavenger
2007-12-30, 10:23 AM
What would happen if an ork spore landed on creation?

Gungnir
2007-12-30, 10:31 AM
Probably a few cool sessions. One kicking their asses, another kicking their asses again, wondering why they won't go away, and another finding a way the destroy all the spores.

warty goblin
2007-12-30, 10:46 AM
Something about the phrase "parry orbital lance strike" doesn't work for me, since it means that the parryer just absorbed enough energy to destroy 3km of solid rock...

Lostintransit
2007-12-30, 10:49 AM
Wow, this thread is rather heated!

As a player of both Exalted and 40K, I have to say that in the original setting of this 'fight' where a plot wormhole opens between the two worlds results in a draw. The OP needs to set out a more specific style of fight;

1. What Era of fighting is this happening in? Are both at maximum power?

2. Are both universes fully allied with their regular enemies? (i.e. necrons, eldar, humans etc all working together) (Dragon blooded, solars, fair folk etc all working together)

3. Any prep time for the fight?

4. Where do these plot holes appear?

5. How does the different powers interact? the warp isn't the wyld so how do they work together for example?

6. What is being used? Story/fluff or rules mechanics?

7. If rules you need to agree how a storytelling D10 system functions against a d6 based wargame.

8. If its on fluff it's a draw, as both sides have effectively 'I win buttons'

As far as I can see it effectively comes down to gritty, dark, kinda realistic Vs ultra cool 'I block that with my pinky' anime style. Which you really can't compare as both are products of their own type of setting so each will be disadvantaged in the other.

Skjaldbakka
2007-12-30, 10:50 AM
Something about the phrase "parry orbital lance strike" doesn't work for me, since it means that the parryer just absorbed enough energy to destroy 3km of solid rock...

Your point being? Are Solars that stupidly powerful? Yes. Yes, they are.

LordVader
2007-12-30, 10:58 AM
What would happen if an ork spore landed on creation?

The Orks would keep spreading and getting destroyed.

So, stalemate. :smalltongue:

Also, does parrying involve using a body part to touch the incoming attack?

Gungnir
2007-12-30, 10:59 AM
Something about the phrase "parry orbital lance strike" doesn't work for me, since it means that the parryer just absorbed enough energy to destroy 3km of solid rock...

FINE. He pulls up 3km of rock out of the ground, and lets that take the hit.

warty goblin
2007-12-30, 11:00 AM
Your point being? Are Solars that stupidly powerful? Yes. Yes, they are.

My point being that whatever they parry with will be reduced to a finegrain ash, along with their bodies and a good portion of the surrounding countryside.

Skjaldbakka
2007-12-30, 11:01 AM
My point being that whatever they parry with will be reduced to a finegrain ash, along with their bodies and a good portion of the surrounding countryside.

Oh, is that your point?

...


Your point is wrong.

Gungnir
2007-12-30, 11:03 AM
My point being that whatever they parry with will be reduced to a finegrain ash, along with their bodies and a good portion of the surrounding countryside.

Sorry buddy, Magical Materials are immune too... damn near everything. There is no such thing as a Exalt wielding a mundane weapon.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h258/BucketNinja/motivator5461798.jpg

LordVader
2007-12-30, 11:34 AM
40k simply loses here. 40k is grounded in reality. Exalted is simply too retardedly (and I emphasize the word :smallwink: ) powerful for 40k to even think about challengin.

Hell, the friggin' Culture probably wouldn't stand a chance against these guys.

Illiterate Scribe
2007-12-30, 11:37 AM
Yeah, actually I agree with LordVader;

We can never defeat 'lololo I R INVINCIBUL!!!1! at their own game, in their own world, but as soon as they try and launch any sort of retributive attack into the 40kverse, and play by its rules (that is, The Rules Of Grim And Awesome, rather than The Rule of Cool) they get yummed up by gribbly daemons.


That is all well and good, however, Exalted 'perfect defenses' are not a product of exploiting a loophole in the game mechanics. It is an explicit power that Exalted characters can achieve. It is something that Solars can do and are expected to do.

We aren't resorting to exploiting badly worded game mechanics. Solars just win. Note this is why I don't play Exalted. I tried once. I played a Night caste doctor. I made no attempt to be even remotely effective with my build. The game got to the point where I was ridiculously overpowered, even playing against type.

Now, Doc Means would die a lot if he tried to fight the IoM. The Dawn caste in the party, however . . . He was optimized.

You use rules, we use rules-lawyering. :smallbiggrin:

Skjaldbakka
2007-12-30, 11:39 AM
You use rules, we use rules-lawyering.

The rules for Exalted are also the setting. That Solars have Heavenly Guardian Defense, and other charms that make them nigh-invincible or better, is an intrinsic part of the setting.

This is not the case for the powerful beings in Warhammer 40K.



Exalted is simply too retardedly (and I emphasize the word ) powerful for 40k to even think about challengin.

I have seen that exact argument against Warhammer 40K. Hence the matchup.


We can never defeat 'lololo I R INVINCIBUL!!!1! at their own game, in their own world, but as soon as they try and launch any sort of retributive attack into the 40kverse, and play by its rules (that is, The Rules Of Grim And Awesome, rather than The Rule of Cool) they get yummed up by gribbly daemons.

Solars are no less powerful for being in a different universe. That would be like saying that the Imperium's technology instantaeously fails the instant they enter any other universe, because that type of technology doesn't exist there.

Solars are intrinsicly and inherently more powerful (or have the capacity to be), than anything the Warhammer 40K 'verse has to offer. Or maybe they aren't, but I haven't seen anything beyond "appropriate encounter difficulty for PC solars" being brought up on the Warhammer 40K side of the debate.

Rutee
2007-12-30, 11:41 AM
40k simply loses here. 40k is grounded in reality. Exalted is simply too retardedly (and I emphasize the word ) powerful for 40k to even think about challengin.

Hell, the friggin' Culture probably wouldn't stand a chance against these guys.
Who's the culture? I've seent hem mentioned before, and now I'm getting curious.


We can never defeat 'lololo I R INVINCIBUL!!!1! at their own game, in their own world, but as soon as they try and launch any sort of retributive attack into the 40kverse, and play by its rules (that is, The Rules Of Grim And Awesome, rather than The Rule of Cool) they get yummed up by gribbly daemons.
I was assuming people worked on their rules the entire time (With Creation even being made a planet so y'all could wrap your head around the concept). By your lesser rules, Solars would just get infinity symbols in every noted stat that they actually care about, and really darn high numbers in the ones that they don't. Repeat with Lunars, Sidereals. I was actually being slightly courteous in assuming a Psyker could act on Creation in the first place, really (Or not, depending on how you look at it. If they harness the Warp, they ought to be able to Harness the Wyld. No guarantees on whether they'd rather have a Fair Folk manifest on them, if a Fair Folk could. Calling on the Wyld in the deeper reaches of Creation doesn't really happen very much, y'see, so it's tough to figure how that'd work, especally if you're not familiar with both. But I was assuming it would work, because it's more interesting that way.

Solars in WH40k would just turn the Warp into their plaything for a few hundred years, form it into whatever they need (Notably, Spacecraft), then go from there. I don't know why people keep assuming "Your universe, your rules" just because it'd save their precious Imperium and whatnot. Well I do, but I don't, yanno?


We covered that one, remember? ...From a "make Creation into a planet" perspective, as well. (ninja'd!) about 20 solars at a time (I'm sure less could do it, but I'm just being safe) running around Creation reflecting it back at you. Even if you manage to come up with an unblockable attack, they'll just start using resistance charms and take it to the face, for no damage.
Actually, Perfects now overcome Unblockable/Unparryable, so their Unblockables would.. well they'd work on non-Solars (Like the poor Dragonblooded that everyone forgets ;.; ), but Solars would /still/ laugh in their faces.

Hasivel
2007-12-30, 12:04 PM
Yeah, actually I agree with LordVader;

We can never defeat 'lololo I R INVINCIBUL!!!1! at their own game, in their own world, but as soon as they try and launch any sort of retributive attack into the 40kverse, and play by its rules (that is, The Rules Of Grim And Awesome, rather than The Rule of Cool) they get yummed up by gribbly daemons.How do you figure? When the Solars go to liberate the 40Kverse from it's horrible Grim 'n Gritty afflictions and instill the Rule of Cool they'll be leading a fleet of 40K units they converted with social skills and bureaucracy charms, then trained with War charms to be better than any 40K army ever seen before, educated by those same units to know exactly what they're facing, and they're better generals than anything the 40K universe has ever imagined.


You use rules, we use rules-lawyering. :smallbiggrin:Here's the thing, you're reaching for loopholes and poorly worded exploits to get something that's still only a fraction of the power of a non-min-maxed beginning Solar. What do you think is going to happen if the Pro-Exalted folks quit playing with 20% of their power and use similar exploits?

And then, the rules lawyering really won't help. You've got a suit of armor that makes one immune to wounds if a certain set of conditions are met? Will it protect against social-fu; bureaucracy-fu; rewriting the laws of physics; an attack to destroy the armor and not the wearer; a martial arts attack that doesn't wound but instead gives a horrific disease; being sent into an area that's absolute zero; a curse that makes you a total spaz at everything you attempt; . . . etc? And how many armors are there total? Can you equip everybody with it or is this a unique artifact?

An army that's somehow all attacks? Okay, if you really think that's useful. One Solar with a perfect parry or soak charm spends a minute or so against it and we're done. What next?

Illiterate Scribe
2007-12-30, 12:32 PM
How do you figure? When the Solars go to liberate the 40Kverse from it's horrible Grim 'n Gritty afflictions and instill the Rule of Cool they'll be leading a fleet of 40K units they converted with social skills and bureaucracy charms, then trained with War charms to be better than any 40K army ever seen before, educated by those same units to know exactly what they're facing, and they're better generals than anything the 40K universe has ever imagined.

Gonna convert the literal incarnations of hate, bloodlust, passion, entropy, and forward planning?

Rutee
2007-12-30, 12:34 PM
Gonna convert the literal incarnations of hate, bloodlust, passion, entropy, and forward planning?

I think he meant Space Marines, but yeah, they force things like that to serve them too.

Notwithstanding that Hasivel wasn't really being facetious when saying that a Solar General is going to make Thrawn + Ender + Sun Tzu + Rommel look like Custer. He was being accurate to War Charms and the ability :P

Lostintransit
2007-12-30, 12:38 PM
How do you figure? When the Solars go to liberate the 40Kverse from it's horrible Grim 'n Gritty afflictions and instill the Rule of Cool they'll be leading a fleet of 40K units they converted with social skills and bureaucracy charms, then trained with War charms to be better than any 40K army ever seen before, educated by those same units to know exactly what they're facing, and they're better generals than anything the 40K universe has ever imagined.

Here's the thing, you're reaching for loopholes and poorly worded exploits to get something that's still only a fraction of the power of a non-min-maxed beginning Solar. What do you think is going to happen if the Pro-Exalted folks quit playing with 20% of their power and use similar exploits?
What next?

Are you guys even bothering to set up a basis for this Vs thread? So far everyone arguing on the side of the exalted haven't really said anything that is at all sensible, yes exalted can parry any attack but how does that help when one of the many dues ex machina in 40k land says "we win"
As an example if we are using exalted rules what happens if the storyteller says "all exalted cease to exist" which is the power of some of 40k. or as its a heroic game the 40k heroes play by the same rules (which makes the c'tan/emperor/chaos gods etc akin to the storyteller him/herself, which has the same effect,NO exalted has a power called "attack storyteller"
Come on people start being more sensible and set out some guidelines(arguing and saying "well the power of cool/plot is not a rational answer!what should happen if this cool/plot be written from a 40k view?)

awaiting rational responses......

(well i can dream! ;-) )

Rutee
2007-12-30, 12:42 PM
Actually, Wikipedia and other posters have already served to debunk the DEM of the C'tan. They /have lost engagements/. By your portayal, they should have just winked those beings (Whom are beneath Solars) out of existence.

The C'Tan have actual weaknesses the Exalted can easily leverage, even. Who's Deus Ex Machina-ing anybody?

Illiterate Scribe
2007-12-30, 12:43 PM
OK, I conclude - exalted is a world of absolute defences and attacks, and so can't be bested by one of relative (although still fairly staggering, admittedly) defence and offence.

Now, wait here while I go and make the Pun-Pun vs. Exalted thread.

Rutee
2007-12-30, 12:44 PM
Now, wait here while I go and make the Pun-Pun vs. Exalted thread.

Pun Pun just has ridiculously huge dice pools. Perfects still swat him like the Kobold Fly he is :D

Illiterate Scribe
2007-12-30, 12:48 PM
Pun Pun just has ridiculously huge dice pools. Perfects still swat him like the Kobold Fly he is :D

Infinitely big, now. Also, the fact that all of time in six-second intervals is now full of clones of himself might hurt. :smallwink:

warty goblin
2007-12-30, 12:49 PM
Pun Pun just has ridiculously huge dice pools. Perfects still swat him like the Kobold Fly he is :D

Well, there is that pesky "I win" immediate action...

Rutee
2007-12-30, 12:50 PM
Well, there is that pesky "I win" immediate action...

The what to the who?

I mean, we're discussing our PErfects and how they work, so I'm /kind of/ expecting similar treatment.. :P



Infinitely big, now. Also, the fact that all of time in six-second intervals is now full of clones of himself might hurt.
So Primordial Big. Still not perfect. And you'll need to explain that one. Notwithstanding that Exalts act in increments of 3 seconds..

I would probably just toss an Eclipse or Zenith with Respect Commanding Attitude at him. Perfect Social Attacks, force them into obedience, offhand, but I'd like to see y'all explain that.

Lostintransit
2007-12-30, 12:54 PM
Actually, Wikipedia and other posters have already served to debunk the DEM of the C'tan. They /have lost engagements/. By your portayal, they should have just winked those beings (Whom are beneath Solars) out of existence.

The C'Tan have actual weaknesses the Exalted can easily leverage, even. Who's Deus Ex Machina-ing anybody?

Okay, once again, if the emperor of mankind + all chaos/eldar gods + oldones during the height of their power mind-**** the whole of creation, their is nothing that the exalted can do. Is has the same effect as the storyteller saying"you are all dead, creation is desyroyed, and the whole setting is vapourised. Lets now go play dnd or football"
No Exalted can stop it!
still waiting for the sensible boundries! ;-)

warty goblin
2007-12-30, 12:59 PM
The what to the who?

I mean, we're discussing our PErfects and how they work, so I'm /kind of/ expecting similar treatment.. :P



Sorry, didn't explain what I was referencing. Pun-Pun wins whenever, wherever and however he wants without possible counter, since he can grant himself any ability, whether it exists or no.

Skjaldbakka
2007-12-30, 12:59 PM
1. Pun-Pun is a bug in the system, not an intrinsic part of a setting.
2. Go start a thread to discuss this elsewhere.
3. Yes, Pun-Pun wins because he grant himself the ability to win.
4. No, Pun-Pun actually loses do to storyteller fiat. Solars are actually playable characters. Pun-Pun is not.




Okay, once again, if the emperor of mankind + all chaos/eldar gods + oldones during the height of their power mind-**** the whole of creation, their is nothing that the exalted can do. Is has the same effect as the storyteller saying"you are all dead, creation is desyroyed, and the whole setting is vapourised. Lets now go play dnd or football"
No Exalted can stop it!

Well, that is a claim that you have presented no support for. I would be happy to see some support, actually, since I expected Warhammer 40K vs. Exalted to be more of contest than it is now.



All those things put together are not as powerful as the things the Solars put down in the backstory of the Exalted campaign setting. OK, maybe they're close.

For what its worth, I originally envisioned IoM trying to invade Creation through a wormhole of plot.

Rutee
2007-12-30, 12:59 PM
Okay, once again, if the emperor of mankind + all chaos/eldar gods + oldones during the height of their power mind-**** the whole of creation, their is nothing that the exalted can do. Is has the same effect as the storyteller saying"you are all dead, creation is desyroyed, and the whole setting is vapourised. Lets now go play dnd or football"
No Exalted can stop it!
still waiting for the sensible boundries! ;-)

Why are you waiting for a sensible explanation if you're not going to give one again? :P

The Exalted defeated enemies that make the God Emperor of Man look weak. The Chaos Gods are roughly equivalent to Small Gods in Exalted; Small Gods, while not trifles, are still well beneath a Solar's power.


Sorry, didn't explain what I was referencing. Pun-Pun wins whenever, wherever and however he wants without possible counter, since he can grant himself any ability, whether it exists or no.
I found the exact wording of it, so no worries. Yeah, Pun Pun wins if there's not a sane GM around to say "No, none of this works". As Skjald and Hasivel have pointed out, using rules exploits tends to weaken your point.

Illiterate Scribe
2007-12-30, 01:07 PM
So Primordial Big. Still not perfect.

Not perfect? You want aleph-x orders of magnitude? :smalltongue:


And you'll need to explain that one. Notwithstanding that Exalts act in increments of 3 seconds..

The true source of the kobold's power isn't actually manipulate form, divine ranks, or any of that stuff. It's actually the work of a friend known as [http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-690806 Monty].

Hasivel
2007-12-30, 01:11 PM
This sentence here:

their is nothing that the exalted can do.
Is wrong. The Exalted can do something about it. The things they can do have already been listed in this thread. A single Exalted with the right build can reconstruct the entire Exalted Universe if he has to.

This sentence here:

As an example if we are using exalted rules what happens if the storyteller says "all exalted cease to exist" which is the power of some of 40k. has been established as false already. If any creature in the 40K universe had the ability to destroy anything, regardless of it's power, that creature would no longer have any enemies.

Now you can prove me wrong if you can show an official splat that says "This attack automatically works, no defense is possible under any circumstances, no dice roll is needed, the entire universe instantly dies if this character uses this ability."

But somehow I don't think it's going to show up.

Your notion that the Storyteller of Exalted is a 40K character is just plain funny. The Storyteller is a human being sitting around the card table/kitchen table with his/her buddies, often found drinking soda and making Monty Python jokes. S/He may have repetitive stress injuries from rolling 50 pounds of dice given where Exalted pools wind up after a couple of sessions.

Skjaldbakka
2007-12-30, 01:16 PM
The Exalted defeated enemies that make the God Emperor of Man look weak.

I'm not familiar with the Exalted canon. Why don't you (being defined as the Exalted buffs) post some examples of exploits accimplished by Solars. Then we can compare them to similar exploits by things in the Warhammer 40K universe (posted by people familiar with that 'verse).

As for defining the terms of the confrontation, assume that factions remain factions. Dragonbloods won't help Solars, because they are anathema. The Unconquered Sun isn't going to directly interfere unless something challenges it specifically.

I think we should mostly run the Solars against the IoM, to start.

So, Terms:

1: Creation is modified to be compatible with Warhammer 40K (is a planet, as has been defined earlier).

2: The Wyld is similar to the Warp, but the Warp is more powerful. Consider the Wyld to be a watered down version of the Warp, which leaked into Creation.

3: Creation appears on the fringes of the galaxy. Some high powered Solar uses magic to keep the Warp at bay in the immediate area of Creation (creating a shield of sorts, I believe the IoM has a tech version, so make it a perfect version of that, around just Creation).

4: The IoM immediately recognizes the threat Creation presents to the IoM, and sends all the forces it can spare w/o other factions tearing them apart.

5: Creation appearing happens just after the IoM has made significant and dramatic victories over its enemies all across the galaxy, and so the threat of other faction is diminished (and they can allocate a large amount of forces to fighting Creation, needing only a token presence maintained on their other worlds).

6: Creation is unaware that the IoM is coming, but they are expecting something bad to come and try to destroy them, and have made preperations including developing a spell that allows Solars to operate in space (I'll let an Exalted buff tell us how costly/difficult that should be, keeping in mind that they need to include protection from the Warp in this spell).

Lostintransit
2007-12-30, 01:18 PM
Why are you waiting for a sensible explanation if you're not going to give one again? :P

The Exalted defeated enemies that make the God Emperor of Man look weak. The Chaos Gods are roughly equivalent to Small Gods in Exalted; Small Gods, while not trifles, are still well beneath a Solar's power.

You did read the post where i said i play and support both systems? Unless the OP sets out a more rational fighting ground/what forces are involed etc this fight is a draw. The forces i mentioned are powerful enough to do exactly what i said, and your continued saying, "oh they puny they beat them" is just really funny and not rational! You keep refering to tactics within the game system, ie diplomacy cheese etc. Well seeing how 40k ain't on those rules you would have to convert either solars to 40k or vice versa and seeing how GW is very protective of its material they buy WW and have creation a little planet in the warp or have it erased due to the power of a cool novel.
If you want power the emperor layed on the smackdown without trying, he could diplomacy cheese the solars to work for him!

Rutee
2007-12-30, 01:19 PM
2: The Wyld is similar to the Warp, but the Warp is more powerful. Consider the Wyld to be a watered down version of the Warp, which leaked into Creation.
Going by Wikipedia, this is utterly incorrect. The Warp relies on individuals opening it up for it to truly affect the WH40k universe. The Wyld, prior to the creation of the REalm Defense Network, was actively, if slowly, converting Creation back into Chaos.

Further, the entities of pure Wyld energy have been making forays into Creation for longer then Daemons, from what I can gather, and have had to face more powerful opposition (Said Defense Network, right off the bat) in doing so.


I'm not familiar with the Exalted canon. Why don't you (being defined as the Exalted buffs) post some examples of exploits accimplished by Solars. Then we can compare them to similar exploits by things in the Warhammer 40K universe (posted by people familiar with that 'verse).
The canon ones from the First Age, whom only really receive mentions of what they do in flashbacks from the Age of Sorrows-based rule books, or what Solars can do? Because there's been a /lot/ of what Solars can do, in this thread.

Skjaldbakka
2007-12-30, 01:21 PM
OK, then reverse that. The Wyld is the source of the Warp. Which means the IoM havew discovered this, and are sending every available resource to destroy Creation.

I don't think Warhammer 40K people will like that though.

We have to make some connection there, as they are both Chaos.


Also, I was referring to specific exploits. Some people seem to be taking issue with the established fact that Solars, by the rules as they were intended to be, have things like perfect defenses that cannot be bested.

To be honest, I am one of those people, that being part of the reason I don't play Exalted anymore.

Rutee
2007-12-30, 01:29 PM
Oh, I agree unequivocally that there's a connection. Determining the nature of it is going to be rough as heck, but there's definitely a connection. Both are unformed Chaos, from what I can gather.

Skjaldbakka
2007-12-30, 01:32 PM
Well, we need to determine the connection, as Solars can directly manipulate the Wyld. How far should this extend to the Warp, if at all?

Rutee
2007-12-30, 01:37 PM
Riskier (I will explain in a moment why this relative term doesn't affect things) or not, it should be fundamentally similar to manipulating the Wyld, and involve the same sort of Charms. Charms like Perfect Integrity Defenses that say "No, it doesn't affect me, period". Lunars might have problems surviving in it, if it is significantly more dangerous (Which I don't consider to be the case), since Lunars don't have Perfect Integrity Defenses, but keep in mind that they've spent several millenia hanging out in the Wyld, and it's an exceedingly rare event for them to actually be affected by it (though not unheard of).

As to travelling in it, and/or Space, that's the hardest part. Twilights could probably figure it out, though it would take time. I'm figuring they wouldn't need Sorcery unless they were going to flatly destroy the laws of physics with their spacecraft though (Moreso, I mean). I imagine the ships would be Artifacts would be handled by Solars with the best of the Sailing Charms though.

Hasivel
2007-12-30, 01:42 PM
You did read the post where i said i play and support both systems? Unless the OP sets out a more rational fighting ground/what forces are involed etc this fight is a draw. The forces i mentioned are powerful enough to do exactly what i said, and your continued saying, "oh they puny they beat them" is just really funny and not rational! You keep refering to tactics within the game system, ie diplomacy cheese etc. Well seeing how 40k ain't on those rules you would have to convert either solars to 40k or vice versa and seeing how GW is very protective of its material they buy WW and have creation a little planet in the warp or have it erased due to the power of a cool novel.
If you want power the emperor layed on the smackdown without trying, he could diplomacy cheese the solars to work for him!The fight isn't a draw, the Exalted Win under the current circumstances. The only possible difficulty they have is designing an FTL charm and then installing it on, oh most likely one of the mid-sized Alchemical Exalted to use as a starship.
Oh, we haven't brought in the Alchemicals yet have we? Since the Exalted have been winning so far with just the Solars and maybe a couple of Lunars, Sidereals, and Fair Folk on the side we haven't needed the other types yet.

You are not as big a fan of both systems as you think if you refer to an Exalted's social charms as "cheese." Nobody is bending the rules, taking advantage of loopholes, or abusing poorly worded fluff. The Exalted are explicitly described as "just that good" over and over again.

The Emperor can diplomance the Solars when you show him having a Perfect ability. Well, maybe. Perfect defenses will still trump that. Seriously, let's see you provide something to backup your allegations that the Emperor is in fact the Storyteller of Exalted, that he can instantly mind-rape an arbitrary number of creatures and no defense is possible, etc. I want to see some examples and books where it happened here, or else crunch showing that the mechanics do as you say.

Rutee
2007-12-30, 01:50 PM
Oh, I thought of a way for the Exalted to accomplish all of that. With the connection to the WH40k Universe, new concepts are created in Creation. Specifically, Space Travel and Faster then Light Travel. These new concepts, like every other concept, gets a Small God somewhere in Yu Shan. And given how many people believe in and use the concepts in question, they're probably quite powerful. The Solars go and /beat the tobacco juice/ out of these new Gods (Who I imagine are called something weird like Wayward Truthseeker Of the Infinite Black Veil and Prince of Forethought..), much like they must have been doing to the God of Physics, until these Gods accede and allow their shiny airships to achieve faster then light space travel at will. That'd be a fun session :D

Hasivel
2007-12-30, 02:01 PM
Yes, I just meant that since there's no canon gods of FTL or Travel to the 40K Universe we're venturing into the fanfiction or DM controlled area of Exalted where I'm not totally comfortable. Of course team 40K has been there some time now.

On the flipside it shouldn't be hard for Exalted to simply borrow 40K ships from the invaders and take them back. Is there an Exalted painting charm for putting giant Unconquered Sun logos on these ships quickly though?

Illiterate Scribe
2007-12-30, 02:06 PM
Oh, I thought of a way for the Exalted to accomplish all of that. With the connection to the WH40k Universe, new concepts are created in Creation. Specifically, Space Travel and Faster then Light Travel. These new concepts, like every other concept, gets a Small God somewhere in Yu Shan. And given how many people believe in and use the concepts in question, they're probably quite powerful. The Solars go and /beat the tobacco juice/ out of these new Gods (Who I imagine are called something weird like Wayward Truthseeker Of the Infinite Black Veil and Prince of Forethought..), much like they must have been doing to the God of Physics, until these Gods accede and allow their shiny airships to achieve faster then light space travel at will. That'd be a fun session :D

You see, this is what I object to about Exalted - introducing Space Travel, making it faster than light, and creating two new gods is a 'fun session'. :smallwink: :smalltongue:

Rutee
2007-12-30, 02:06 PM
Yes, I just meant that since there's no canon gods of FTL or Travel to the 40K Universe we're venturing into the fanfiction or DM controlled area of Exalted where I'm not totally comfortable. Of course team 40K has been there some time now.
I was half-joking anyway, but only half. This is probably the way I would convince my ST to go, because it's awesome and amusing. And more importantly, involves the entire party. I don't think the Night or Dawn castes would have too much fun letting the Eclipses, Zeniths, and Twilights do everything..


On the flipside it shouldn't be hard for Exalted to simply borrow 40K ships from the invaders and take them back. Is there an Exalted painting charm for putting giant Unconquered Sun logos on these ships quickly though?

Craft: Water Charms should be able to handle that, yeah. As to /the actual siezing/.. that depends on whether the Exalted just let the Imperium go first. Which is strategically sound, but may not jive with some Solars' arrogance. Either way, the Imperium will probably get to Creation before the Twilights have finished their superior space craft, at which point you can Social-fu them into obedience. And yes, that should conveniently include their ships. In fact, I imagine the Twilights would, unlike the IoM, /actually understand how the ships work/, and with Solar Admirals (Like a General, but IN SPACE), and Captains (Sailing Charms), they'll proceed to make the ships do things that were supposed to be impossible. All the while the Twilights take the things they learn from IoM ships and make much, much better ones.


You see, this is what I object to about Exalted - introducing Space Travel, making it faster than light, and creating two new gods is a 'fun session'. :smallwink: :smalltongue:
Hee. What would you prefer it to be? :P

Skjaldbakka
2007-12-30, 02:26 PM
I almost want to run this scenario as an Exalted game. 4 or 5 Solars should be adequately challenged by the IoM.

Poison_Fish
2007-12-30, 02:27 PM
Yes, I just meant that since there's no canon gods of FTL or Travel to the 40K Universe we're venturing into the fanfiction or DM controlled area of Exalted where I'm not totally comfortable. Of course team 40K has been there some time now.

And yet it's canon for their existence to show up if the portals are opened up and the instant such technology enters creation. That is pure fluff that a lot of ST's forget. We really haven't gotten to ST areas yet, the closest being "They make a charm for it". But it's canon for solars to do that in the first place. Or rather, it's canon to grow exponentially with their choices resulting from their environment. If space is thrown in there, expect some spacing charms.

Let me make it clear on trying to bring a story teller/GM/DM/what have you into this. Rocks Fall, everyone dies is the classic GM way of killing. Heavenly Guardian Defense Parries the rocks. Really, it's bad form for an ST if he's just killing those characters anyway. So, let's try not to bring them in. As well, any of those powers coming from the 40K universe remains debunked thanks to Rutee. As well, I'm not still not sure your understanding what a perfect attack does. "Wink me out of existence? I took a wrong turn at alberque and now I wasn't there/I parry it/I dodge it/I take my own reality and push the non-exsistance away"(A fancy way of saying, I soak it). Avoidance kata/perfect defenses.

As for the new strategy laid out, the filibuster social solar slowing down the chunk coming from IoM works even better.

Finally, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss a game if you haven't played it. It's not for everyone, and I myself prefer more realistic gaming, but for some reason Exalted stuck with me(I get tired of it sometimes, when I do, I try to convince people to do Alternity). Once you've tried it out, then you can form an opinion on the game itself, such as Skjaldbakka has done.

Rutee
2007-12-30, 02:37 PM
Finally, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss a game if you haven't played it. It's not for everyone, and I myself prefer more realistic gaming, but for some reason Exalted stuck with me(I get tired of it sometimes, when I do, I try to convince people to do Alternity). Once you've tried it out, then you can form an opinion on the game itself, such as Skjaldbakka has done.
I.. actually would dismiss it if I weren't inclined to its way of doing things, I think. Though.. maybe I shouldn't say that. I like Kung Fu Awesomeness, but I'm pretty sure Exalted changed my way of looking at what a system should offer me, so.. hm. Well, at any rate, I was hoping you could actually go over my C'Tan/Warp posts in detail and tell me if/where I got stuff wrong. I will admit in full to relying on Wikipedia (Though in a pinch, I think I could go get WH40k books. It'd just tke me an hour or so and I will have to lie to anyone who asks me where I got them), so if they're wrong, lemme know.

Illiterate Scribe
2007-12-30, 02:45 PM
Hee. What would you prefer it to be? :P

I don't know ... killing rats in the inn's basement, or something. That's was an RPG's suppposed to be like. ;)

Poison_Fish
2007-12-30, 02:52 PM
I.. actually would dismiss it if I weren't inclined to its way of doing things, I think. Though.. maybe I shouldn't say that. I like Kung Fu Awesomeness, but I'm pretty sure Exalted changed my way of looking at what a system should offer me, so.. hm. Well, at any rate, I was hoping you could actually go over my C'Tan/Warp posts in detail and tell me if/where I got stuff wrong. I will admit in full to relying on Wikipedia (Though in a pinch, I think I could go get WH40k books. It'd just tke me an hour or so and I will have to lie to anyone who asks me where I got them), so if they're wrong, lemme know.

Well, as far as my knowledge goes of 40k, it sounds accurate. I also admit my knowledge is that of something a bit beyond a casual player, but not significantly so. However, I have yet to see something counter to it, so should it not hold true until shown otherwise?

Also, same thing with me getting the codecs, <_<.


I don't know ... killing rats in the inn's basement, or something. That's was an RPG's supposed to be like. ;)

This is at the grandest hotel that floats in the sky and is 30 miles long, which at the heart lies a hearthstone that allows one to live forever, and in the deep basement in the sky live an army of rat-beast men lead by a Lunar with a rat totem form for Deadly Beast Man Transformation, all hunting the party as they look for some first age wine(1000 proof) hidden in the dank cellars? That sounds like a good starting solar adventure to me.

Rutee
2007-12-30, 02:56 PM
This is at the grandest hotel that floats in the sky and is 30 miles long, which at the heart lies a hearthstone that allows one to live forever, and in the deep basement in the sky live an army of rat-beast men lead by a Lunar with a rat totem form for Deadly Beast Man Transformation, all hunting the party as they look for some first age wine(1000 proof) hidden in the dank cellars? That sounds like a good starting solar adventure to me.
I'm having flashbacks back to my Rancher Eclipse Caste and her Dawn Caste ISP bodyguard. Fun Fact: Seven Section Staff Botches hurt a lot when you do them on a really cool stunt (This was 1e, so no PErfect MA attacks or Excellencies ;.; ). Though Lunars and their Beastmen tribes fighting Newbie Solars always does that to me now...

Indon
2007-12-30, 02:58 PM
"Wink me out of existence? I took a wrong turn at alberque and now I wasn't there...

Duck Fate is by far my group's favorite Sidereal charm to make jokes about.

ST: "The woman seduces you and takes you up to her room."

Player: "Awesome! I get naked."

ST: "I can't really see why, as there is clearly nobody there, despite your memories of the woman."

Rutee
2007-12-30, 03:07 PM
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j227/RuteeKatreya/DuckFate1.jpg

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j227/RuteeKatreya/DuckFate2.jpg

Oh Sidereals. So rife with jokes. So nearly unplayable.. then again, if I can find a game that's playable as Infernals (http://wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/index.php/Why_the_Yozis_are_Right_(And_You_Should_Suffer_and _Obey_For_All_Eternity)), I suppose Sidereals being Fate's Bitch is just as work-around-able.

Tengu
2007-12-30, 04:48 PM
I must say, this thread feels me with warmth. I used to like Warhammer, in both 40k and Fantasy incarnations, but when I've read more about it after some time it all struck me as horribly pretentious (though fantasy to a much lesser extent), trying so hard to be dark and gritty and badass and with such a "way out there" sense of scale that it's more funny than anything else.

Rutee
2007-12-30, 04:56 PM
I kinda like what I see in general, actually. I mean, I would never play it (I have no philosophical problem, you see, but I have quite a few financial ones. Also spending hours painting my models would be hard, with everything else I try to do, since I can't multitask painting.), and I don't like Grim and Gritty as a rule, but I think the universe is still pretty interestingly constructed. Also unusual, it /is/ on the proper scale for a galaxy-spanning game.

Selrahc
2008-01-02, 05:47 AM
Okay, I've remembered something that could give 40K victory...

Stasis fields. Its tricky, but if you lure the Solar Exalts into an area with a stasis field, and then activate it, thats one solar exalted down, and as an added bonus, it doesn't get its essence thrown into another body.

As a downside though, it would be pretty easy to just break the machine generating the stasis field. And it would be hard to lure the Solars into preprepared areas. And stasis fields are incredibly rare technology, that is hard to produce. So all in all, its not a fool proof strategy... but it could potentially work.

Or at lest, I can't think of how to counter it, since I don't know a massive ammount about exalted. Something tells me Sidereals might be able to come up with something, since they mess around with spacetime.

WalkingTarget
2008-01-02, 09:24 AM
Okay, I've remembered something that could give 40K victory...

Stasis fields. Its tricky, but if you lure the Solar Exalts into an area with a stasis field, and then activate it, thats one solar exalted down, and as an added bonus, it doesn't get its essence thrown into another body.

As a downside though, it would be pretty easy to just break the machine generating the stasis field. And it would be hard to lure the Solars into preprepared areas. And stasis fields are incredibly rare technology, that is hard to produce. So all in all, its not a fool proof strategy... but it could potentially work.

Or at lest, I can't think of how to counter it, since I don't know a massive ammount about exalted. Something tells me Sidereals might be able to come up with something, since they mess around with spacetime.

Well, if the Solar to be trapped has something like Surprise Anticipation Method it is literally impossible to catch them off guard (and this costs only 1 mote of essence, in 1st Ed. at least). If they have it in a combo with the perfect Dodge charm, then they simply dodge the stasis field when you activate it (which doesn't have to make sense, but it works). I don't remember enough to get into time-altering powers, though.

Rutee
2008-01-02, 07:37 PM
As a downside though, it would be pretty easy to just break the machine generating the stasis field. And it would be hard to lure the Solars into preprepared areas. And stasis fields are incredibly rare technology, that is hard to produce. So all in all, its not a fool proof strategy... but it could potentially work.

Or at lest, I can't think of how to counter it, since I don't know a massive ammount about exalted. Something tells me Sidereals might be able to come up with something, since they mess around with spacetime.

The biggest counter would be an Awareness or Socialize Charm (Depending on the nature of the trick). Either you see the trap from 5 miles away, or you hear the lie in the person's voice, or whatnot. Notwithstanding, yes, SAM and Seven Shadows Evasion. Or Avoidance Kata. Or Duck Fate. Duck Fate, by the way, is the most patently ludicrous counter. It allows you to avoid the Fate logically in-store for you from whatever you're "Dodging", IIRC (I don't have Siddies 2e still). If you walk in a storm and activate duck fate, you will be totally dry, resplendent in your untouched clothing, with your awesome hair billowing out behind you perfectly while you were in this storm. (Yes, I had to use the word Resplendent /once/ in this debate; The word is required, in Exalted.)

Mind, it wasn't that Sidereals mess with Space Time so much as they have Charms that let them see ahead into it, and in Avoidance Kata's case, /retcon their actions based on it/... XD

puppyavenger
2008-01-02, 08:35 PM
Okay I thought of something immune to social fu
The Tyranids
When inside synapse range, They are all under the direct control of the synapse, and genstealers always are. so you have to get to the synapse
Synapse creatures are directly controlled by the creature that birthed them, Who are usually in orbit. So you have to control them.
The birthers are under the direct control of the nearest hive ship so you have to control that.
The Hive ships are under the direct control of the conglomerate mind of the fleet, so you have to control that.
the fleets are a conglomerate of all the hive ships in them and controlled by the Hive Mind.
The Hive mind is a MASSIVE intergalactic conglomerate of all Tyranids minds who has successfully devoured an entire galaxy and has the intelligence of every Tyranid in Existence. Also s I said they are a conglomerate of every Tyranid.
So you'd have to social fu every single Tyranid in existence at once. noting that there are hundreds of quadrillions in the Galaxy now and they're just the vanguard of the main fleet..( also with some of the Synapse and up these things are smarter than almost any other creature. Just with a very alien mindset.)

Rutee
2008-01-02, 08:48 PM
Hey, I could buy that. There are things that just can't be talked to death, due to their nature, and that's probably one of them.

What'd happen if you severred the connection of a given Tyranid to its Hive Mind, though? I can't immediately come up with a way to do it with Exalted (Meaning it'd be a TWilight-made Artifact, perhaps, but probably not a Charm), but I /am/ curious.

Eita
2008-01-02, 08:53 PM
A Tyranid cut off from the Hive Mind? One of two things would happen. (1) It would just suddenly stop doing anything (2) It would go into a suicidal rage.

puppyavenger
2008-01-02, 08:57 PM
Hey, I could buy that. There are things that just can't be talked to death, due to their nature, and that's probably one of them.

What'd happen if you severred the connection of a given Tyranid to its Hive Mind, though? I can't immediately come up with a way to do it with Exalted (Meaning it'd be a TWilight-made Artifact, perhaps, but probably not a Charm), but I /am/ curious.

Synapse creatures can not bve cut off from the Hive Mind, its hardwired into their brains. Non-synapse creatures are animals without it.

Kremlin KOA
2008-03-22, 06:20 AM
Are you guys even bothering to set up a basis for this Vs thread? So far everyone arguing on the side of the exalted haven't really said anything that is at all sensible, yes exalted can parry any attack but how does that help when one of the many dues ex machina in 40k land says "we win"
As an example if we are using exalted rules what happens if the storyteller says "all exalted cease to exist" which is the power of some of 40k. or as its a heroic game the 40k heroes play by the same rules (which makes the c'tan/emperor/chaos gods etc akin to the storyteller him/herself, which has the same effect,NO exalted has a power called "attack storyteller"
Come on people start being more sensible and set out some guidelines(arguing and saying "well the power of cool/plot is not a rational answer!what should happen if this cool/plot be written from a 40k view?)

awaiting rational responses......

(well i can dream! ;-) )

but exalted explicitly get a power that allows them to 'parry storyteller'

Tengu
2008-03-22, 07:22 AM
Two and a half months... still waking up an old thread, or is it thread necromancy already? Because in the second case I have, as usually, a fitting picture prepared.

Rutee
2008-03-22, 11:52 AM
The strict line is 3 months, I believe. Edit it in anyway; I'm going to report it since I'm not sure which it is.

Lostintransit
2008-03-22, 02:05 PM
but exalted explicitly get a power that allows them to 'parry storyteller'

This is hilarious, I thought this thread had died off, but apparently not! :smalleek:

The main reason I stopped adding was for one simple fact

Taking the equation warp = Wyld, and saying that Exalted Wins is immensely funny. For a start the necrons have things which negate the effects of the warp in a field around an object. So Warp = Wyld? How nice, the Necrons beat you senseless because perfect defense suddenly doesn't work because your abilitly to power it is nul. So yippy, you have a sword and some armour and some arrows against what? terminators with guns that flay every atom from your body? how quaint.

A number of other factors, such as exalted creation is a finite size, which in itself is smaller than a single planet. So the imperium just literaly pour bodies through the plot/dimensional hole until creation is buried under bodies. Burn them and killing them? How nice you are still left with corpses or ash, that will slowly fill creation.

Or orks, you can't kill them ever without exterminating creation itself, they will always exist, oh and they thrive on warfare. get stronger etc to respond to the difficultly of the fight or the length of the fighting.

Now on a one for one basis I will say that a solar exalted could pretty much wipe the floor with anything up to Greater daemon level and even them and things like C'tan are going to have a bit of hard time in a out and out fight. But the point of the matter is that the solar exalted are actually beatable, otherwise the dragonbloodied could not have done it see?

So unless the fight is a straight, everything working in perfect harmony on both factions sides (40k and exalted, so IoM and everyone get on fine, all the exalted are best buddies), then this fight is unfair.

In a stand up fight between most of the 40k factions, on their own, Vs most exalted factions, will most likely lose after a tremendous yet long lived battle from which neither side could fully recover. However taken as a full universe Vs full universe fight then 40k, from sheer resources and ability to deal with, well, anything!, would win.

Also go go magic thread Necromancy!:smallbiggrin:

Iethloc
2008-03-22, 02:58 PM
It takes the constant tending of a GOD (Luna) to hold back the wyld, and it's still slowly eating at creation. In fact, Luna is more than a god/goddess/deity. Luna is Celestial Incarnae. Luna is a god to the gods. If the Wyld can still attack creation even while Luna holds it back, how could it be stopped by the Necrons? A combined effort, maybe, but are they really going to work together when they're trying to kill each other?

Also, the Solar's perfect defense is NOT powered by the Wyld. It's powered by Essence, which is present in everything and cannot be dispelled. As for pouring bodies into creation, the Zenith Solar Exalted can just burn one mote of essence to burn a corpse and send its soul to heaven (and it will never rise as any sort of undead, at that). All he needs to do is stunt (describe it in an awesome manner) it, and not only is it free, he gets essence back.

And that's just one option. They could just fling the corpses back to the Wyld, which is infinite in size.


As for Orks? Death of Obsidian Butterflies. True to its name, it sends out a swarm of very sharp butterflies made of obsidian. It's an area attack, and will probably kill several Orks at a time. It's not even the most powerful spell. Not by a long shot. Get in some Solar Circle Sorcery, and then things go out of whack with spells like Total Annihilation, which does just what it sounds like. Except bigger. It's basically a hydrogen bomb on steroids.


Now, must I bring out Charcoal March of Spiders Style again? A practitioner of this style would actually be at his STRONGEST against an army of Orks. Why? Because he can attack them all at once. Literally. The final Charm in the style, Grandmother Spider Mastery, allows him to apply all attacks he makes in his remaining two independent, simultaneous actions to every enemy in sight...twice (so that's at least four attacks to every Ork. And if he went all out, it could easily be 12). So all he has to do is attack multiple times, and the Ork army is reduced to a bunch of smears.

Rutee
2008-03-22, 05:07 PM
Orcs are best handled with custom Adamantine or Sapphire circle Sorcery, not with Emerald Circle.


Taking the equation warp = Wyld, and saying that Exalted Wins is immensely funny. For a start the necrons have things which negate the effects of the warp in a field around an object. So Warp = Wyld? How nice, the Necrons beat you senseless because perfect defense suddenly doesn't work because your abilitly to power it is nul. So yippy, you have a sword and some armour and some arrows against what? terminators with guns that flay every atom from your body? how quaint.
You haven't been reading. The WYld is Chaos that Solars and Lunars can /force into becoming reality/. It's not the source of their powers.

Exalted, especially in the First Age, trumps 40k, even at its height; Even the other 40k fans agreed, several of whom /also play Exalted/. One stated his opinion that the Solars trump the Culture, which I genuinely am not sure of, but it may be accurate.

YPU
2008-03-22, 05:29 PM
You know, if the deathlords managed to steal half (I tink it was) the essence of the sollars and turn it into chaos exalted, tough they would probably all try to get the biggest piece. I suppose change would get the biggest part, probably figuring out quickest the way to steal the essence.
Now a completely different note, if everything in creation has a god accounted for, and chaos is omnipresent, would there be a god for the chaos gods, who are no gods by the exalted counting.

Rutee
2008-03-22, 05:51 PM
You know, if the deathlords managed to steal half (I tink it was) the essence of the sollars and turn it into chaos exalted, tough they would probably all try to get the biggest piece. I suppose change would get the biggest part, probably figuring out quickest the way to steal the essence.
Now a completely different note, if everything in creation has a god accounted for, and chaos is omnipresent, would there be a god for the chaos gods, who are no gods by the exalted counting.

That would depend on whether or not the Wyld has a God, and I don't think it does. I can think of several extremely good reasons why it shouldn't too, not the least of which being that the Wyld isn't a natural concept that the Celestial Bureacracy can lay any claim on.

YPU
2008-03-22, 06:23 PM
Yes, i suppose chaos like the wild is pre-natural. Still the idea of exalted chaos champion would be interesting, and confusing since there are already champions of chaos called exalted.
Also, on a completely different note, what are those small black and white spotted creatures that keep poping up in exalted art. I’m not very well known with the setting.

Rutee
2008-03-22, 06:41 PM
I would guess demons, but I'm shooting in the dark. Do you have a page number or reference? I could tell you if you do. And, don't take me too seriously on the subject of Wyld + Gods = ?. I am not nearly as much of a metaplot nerd as I 'should' be. I can just think of logic that would lead it to not have a God.

Then again, the Wyld on a conceptual level may have a God now. Hm, I could so make that a plot point... *Starts writing notes*

YPU
2008-03-22, 07:07 PM
2e core book, page 67, in the top of the image doing some sort of backflip.
page 108
page 196, and more pages but that should do.

and indeed, the birth of a god dedicated to some even stranger consept always makes for a interesting plot.
on the other hand, it said somewhere that every thime something is mentioned the god of it gets a tiny litle bit stronger. the smell of rothen fish (or eggs) is one comonly used as a reference for bad smell. thus would they actualy have a somewhat powerfull god???

Rutee
2008-03-22, 07:12 PM
Probably not. Worship and prestige play as big a role as ubiquitousness. You can be pretty powerful if you have 2/3 though (Hence how the God of the Realm is so relatively powerful, even though he can't be worshiped directly).

And that's not a member of a race, to my knowledge, just a particular girl who has lots of body paint.

YPU
2008-03-22, 07:27 PM
ha, i found their name in a exalted reading book. they are called the djala. the one you see in the books is probably faka kun, a character from the comics.

Kremlin KOA
2008-03-23, 08:13 PM
The strict line is 3 months, I believe. Edit it in anyway; I'm going to report it since I'm not sure which it is.


damn american calendar system
1/3/08 over here translates to 1st or march
didn't think it was 2 and a half months old
whoops

Kremlin KOA
2008-03-23, 08:26 PM
This is hilarious, I thought this thread had died off, but apparently not! :smalleek:

The main reason I stopped adding was for one simple fact

Taking the equation warp = Wyld, and saying that Exalted Wins is immensely funny. For a start the necrons have things which negate the effects of the warp in a field around an object. So Warp = Wyld? How nice, the Necrons beat you senseless because perfect defense suddenly doesn't work because your abilitly to power it is nul. So yippy, you have a sword and some armour and some arrows against what? terminators with guns that flay every atom from your body? how quaint.

1: Wyld is not the source of an Exalts power
2: Chaos repelling pattern does the exact same thing :)
3: Hmm how about lightsabres (beamklaives) and high end plasma weaponry? that is available in exalted by canon



A number of other factors, such as exalted creation is a finite size, which in itself is smaller than a single planet. So the imperium just literaly pour bodies through the plot/dimensional hole until creation is buried under bodies. Burn them and killing them? How nice you are still left with corpses or ash, that will slowly fill creation.

finite sure, but significantly bigger than earth. Did the math once, the realm island is bigger than the USA by a large margin




Or orks, you can't kill them ever without exterminating creation itself, they will always exist, oh and they thrive on warfare. get stronger etc to respond to the difficultly of the fight or the length of the fighting.


not true, there are already artifacts that scourge spores and disease from a region. In addition low level spels like Obsisidan butterflies (30m by 100m by 10m, or 100feet by 330 ft by 33 ft kill zone) or as someone else mentioned, grandmommy spider mastery (if I see it, it dies in 3 seconds)



Now on a one for one basis I will say that a solar exalted could pretty much wipe the floor with anything up to Greater daemon level and even them and things like C'tan are going to have a bit of hard time in a out and out fight. But the point of the matter is that the solar exalted are actually beatable, otherwise the dragonbloodied could not have done it see?

um that was actually a sidereal sneak attack
also C'Tan? spirit beings with no connection to the warp that inhabit necrodermis bodies? melee excellency + hungry tiger technique + ghost eating technique.n Literally consume their spiritform and sunform for energy. This power explicitly permakills anything short of a primordial, and leaves those permacomatose.



So unless the fight is a straight, everything working in perfect harmony on both factions sides (40k and exalted, so IoM and everyone get on fine, all the exalted are best buddies), then this fight is unfair.

This fight is unfair regardless



In a stand up fight between most of the 40k factions, on their own, Vs most exalted factions, will most likely lose after a tremendous yet long lived battle from which neither side could fully recover. However taken as a full universe Vs full universe fight then 40k, from sheer resources and ability to deal with, well, anything!, would win.

Also go go magic thread Necromancy!:smallbiggrin:

well if we are doing that then all the exalt factions from the first age time should be working together. so thsat means Autochthon is friendly with the solars. we now have our own Unicron on our side.

Lostintransit
2008-03-24, 12:00 PM
1: Wyld is not the source of an Exalts power


Thats the bit I find amusing, *pulls exalted Fair folk book off shelf, turns to page 10*, well it says here that all things are made from essence, which itself comes from the wyld, without the wyld, their would be no essence. Which leaves the following equation;

Wyld=essence=exalted power

Taken for this fight Wyld=Warp

You have the Necron pariahs beating Exalted, as they negate their power and they run screaming in terror or curl into little balls and sob. As the pariah gene completle negates the power of the warp. Surprisingly the necrons have this not only planted into people but also have machines which do it.

As for the whole, i turn your body to ash, thats very nice and cool, but what happens when you have Many Trillion human bodies worth of ash filling creation? How do you breath? Oh and how do you grow crops? what happened to all those people who aren't uber powered? Also I hope your character can swim through ash because thats what would happen.

Personally I don't remember their being a remove ash power. So it makes it interesting.

Actually thinking about it some more, the pariah effect might even make the exalted wink out of existance, as the whole of creation is effectively created from wyld, so in 40k terms thats like having a deamon world in the warp, which is all nice and dandy, until you can't get to the material world or your very essence is converted to a simple calm state. Interesting.

Also in terms of picking eras, Why not pick the era when the Necrons and the old ones were around? If of course the Exalted get all their first age goodies. Then you have it even funnier, as the Old Ones are effectively on the same playing field as the Exalted and their gods, while the necrons, who manged to beat them, happened to be working with them as well. Makes me want to chuckle.:smallbiggrin:

Also no one answered the question, if the solars are all that, how did the other exalted and dragon blooded bring them down? If they have I AM UBER UNKILLABLE, why is the exalted game still not set in the first age?:smalltongue:

Now personally, I understand all the uber defences etc, but what it comes down to is the building blocks of the 'realities' as both sides can alter their own.

Of course this would all be solved if the warp was not the wyld, in which case it would be alot more interesting and i'd even say the exalted lot would win, from a purely unstoppable point of view. As the necrons could make them just wink out of existance! :smalltongue:

So to summarise:
1) If Wyld = Warp then 40K
2) if Wyld does not = Warp then Exalted!

Easy!:smallsmile:

Rutee
2008-03-24, 12:21 PM
You have nfc what you're talking about. Wyld has nothing to do with essence.

Wyld is covered by mechanics; Basically if you're using it, it's a Shaping Effect. Using Essence is not considered a Shaping Effect. Therefore, Wyld has nothing to do with Essence.

puppyavenger
2008-03-24, 12:25 PM
Also, the Solar's perfect defense is NOT powered by the Wyld. It's powered by Essence, which is present in everything and cannot be dispelled. As for pouring bodies into creation, the Zenith Solar Exalted can just burn one mote of essence to burn a corpse and send its soul to heaven (and it will never rise as any sort of undead, at that). All he needs to do is stunt (describe it in an awesome manner) it, and not only is it free, he gets essence back.

And that's just one option. They could just fling the corpses back to the Wyld, which is infinite in size.


As for Orks? Death of Obsidian Butterflies. True to its name, it sends out a swarm of very sharp butterflies made of obsidian. It's an area attack, and will probably kill several Orks at a time. It's not even the most powerful spell. Not by a long shot. Get in some Solar Circle Sorcery, and then things go out of whack with spells like Total Annihilation, which does just what it sounds like. Except bigger. It's basically a hydrogen bomb on steroids.


Now, must I bring out Charcoal March of Spiders Style again? A practitioner of this style would actually be at his STRONGEST against an army of Orks. Why? Because he can attack them all at once. Literally. The final Charm in the style, Grandmother Spider Mastery, allows him to apply all attacks he makes in his remaining two independent, simultaneous actions to every enemy in sight...twice (so that's at least four attacks to every Ork. And if he went all out, it could easily be 12). So all he has to do is attack multiple times, and the Ork army is reduced to a bunch of smears.

oh we know ant type of Exhalted can kill them by the millions, but the thin is, in order to rid a planet of orks, yu have to reduce any piece of ground an ork has stood on to radioactive slag, and if you miss one sore,they can come back. so basicly they're there to provide a distraction

Rutee
2008-03-24, 12:32 PM
You won't miss a Spore. Perfect Awareness Charms. A Solar with good Awareness could destroy every spore, without missing one even in the heat of battle, without destroying all of Creation. That's without even getting into custom Sorcery (Which si what Iethloc was discussing), which could do, for instance, render every being with green skin in all of Creation incapable of creating progeny, thus nullifying the spores.

Remember, you're thinking based on Warhammer 40k's limits. Gotta stop doing that :P

Selrahc
2008-03-24, 04:48 PM
Plus, Orks aren't so efficient that a single spore can cause a massive Ork population to grow. Many spores don't mature, and most spores do not in fact spawn pure orks, but rather work on setting up the Ork ecology.

In ideal conditions, an Ork spore generates a lot of fungus. Then it generates simple orkoid lifeforms, like squigs, which feed on the fungus. Next spawn lots and lots of gretchin and snotlings which work on creating a colony for themselves, and establishing food supplies. Its about this time the bigger Orks mature, and nick it off the Gretchin. They then spend years building up, and squabbling with each other into a feral colony. Eventually, if the planetary owners haven't wiped them out, they might start getting the urge to waagh, which hotwires the Orkish minds into war mode, and is when they start to actually build guns and tanks and be a real threat to an industrialized society.

The fertility rate of the spores is not complete. The system does not set up quickly. One Ork alone can not get this ecosystem working. An Ork invasion, fullscale across the planet results in billions of Ork deaths. The planet is not then covered in Orks. What actually happens is that in a few backwater deep forests, these billions upon billions of spores might actually result in a few outcroppings of feral orks.

Oslecamo
2008-03-25, 04:38 PM
Remember, you're thinking based on Warhammer 40k's limits. Gotta stop doing that :P

Limits and WH40k don't make sense in the same sentence.

We're talking about the orkz here. Da boyz. The main reason why they are feared it's not because their numbers are bigger than anything else.

They are feared because they can warp reality at will. They just didn't notice it. Think Haruhi, but uglier.

If an ork believes that something will worck, it will worck. If a wimpy orcish slugga boy believes his choppa that is made out of rusty steel and spit can breack apart that terminator's reinforced ceramic plating with the praised emperor's own blessing, the metalic alloy below it strong enough to resist tank shells and still cut the terminator's hardened flesh and bone, hell that's what will happen, even if it breacks all laws of logic and reality.

And this power can't be disrupted in any way. It comes from the orks itself. The more orks you have togheter the stronger this power is. This allows the orks to turn piles of burned metal into owerfull war machines, summon bolts outof nothing, take down the toughest armors, make the good beer out of dirt and much more.

So, even if mister exalted solar is the ultimate martial artist blessed by the forces of the universe and has a trillion backup tricks to back up his defense, it doesn't matter. That slugga boy's choppa will chop his head as easily as if the solar was commoner Joe in that alley. Because the ork believed it.

Rutee
2008-03-25, 04:51 PM
If that were true, Orks would never lose. Ever. WH40k fluff is adequately debunking such a liberal explanation for Orks.

streakster
2008-03-25, 06:00 PM
Man, this is still going?

Fine. One Godwars character grows annoyed enough at the ruckus from the universe next door that he pops over and slaughters both sides.

Happy?:smallbiggrin:

Just a joke, by the way. Personally, I'm betting on the exalted.

Oslecamo
2008-03-25, 06:09 PM
If that were true, Orks would never lose. Ever. WH40k fluff is adequately debunking such a liberal explanation for Orks.

First, orks never lose. If they win they win. If they retreat is to fight another day. And if they die they really don't care. This is the first lesson of orkish warfare.

Orks aren't invulnerable. If you can shoot enough stuff at them from a distance they die and they can kill you with those choppas. They also have the worst aim of the galaxy. At least they seem to believe good aim is for sissies.

Also orks fight for fun, and they are known to have let big enemies escape alive when they could have killed them just so they could fight them another day.

The WH40k universe is the orks playground no matter how you look at it. If the Emperium of men fortifies a planet that is being attacked by orks, the main result is that more orks will come to join the "fun".


Also, I could shoot back that if exalted characters are so uber, how did they disapear? In the exalted fluff solars and all their mighty pals disapeared in history, while the simple mortals continued to exist. How is this possible if they were so strong?

streakster
2008-03-25, 06:20 PM
Umm, did you actually read the fluff? OTHER EXALTED took down the solars, who promptly came back in a couple of centuries. Meanwhile, the other exalted ruled the world - not mortals.

Terraoblivion
2008-03-25, 06:22 PM
Only the solars disappeared for a time and even that took the gathered power of the greatest members of another kind of Exalted, millions of Dragonblooded soldiers and even so they did not fully succeed. The puny mortals are, depending on the local supernatural, the wards, the tools or the playthings of gods and exalted all over creation. In addition to that many of the really extremely strong beings such as the incarna, third circle demons, elder lunars, Chejop Kejak, other elder sidereals and the Deathlords have all been active in the setting from the usurpation onwards. And this is just the most powerful beings in the world, all of which have powers on par with what has been previously stated in this thread.

an kobold
2008-03-25, 06:26 PM
Exterminatus. Please. Every time I read the title of this thread, my brain hurts trying to split off in trying to root for two flavors of awesome at once.

Selrahc
2008-03-25, 06:37 PM
They are feared because they can warp reality at will. They just didn't notice it. Think Haruhi, but uglier.

That is a very odd reading of how Ork tek works.

The energy of the waaagh, i.e that of giant numbers of orks, alters reality a little bit. A choppa is a little bit more effective than it should be, a zappp gun sometimes releases a devastating burst of energy, when it doesn't explode, and ork tanks can actually move rather than be junk heaps. Red ones go a bit faster.

But they don't have vast reality warping powers. The choppa is only a bit more effective. The tanks break down with alarming frequency. The zapp gun lets out a disappointing *fssst* rather than an arcing beam of death. The red ones would go much faster.

Your average Ork believes he is undefeatable by anyone except a bigger ork. And yet Space Marines, guardsmen and Eldar lay the smack down on orks all the time.

A vast number of Orks alter reality a little bit. Even en masse they don't have the kind of powers you're suggesting.

tyckspoon
2008-03-25, 06:58 PM
A vast number of Orks alter reality a little bit. Even en masse they don't have the kind of powers you're suggesting.

Well, there *are* the Ork equivalents of psykers that are far more sensitive to the Waagh and might be able to create those effects. They've just been shoved into the far background of the current fluff and army lists.. and they tend to have very short life spans, because pure Waaagh makes Ork head asplode. You may also see more impressive effects in something like a Gargant which functions as both a war machine and a sort of Orkish religious idol, but even there it's likely the end improvement just gets the Gargant to a point where it can compete with the technologically superior superheavy war machines the other races use.

For the individual Ork, the power of the Waaagh just lets his gun work despite having been built with a firing pin that is too short to actually hit the rounds. Or inexplicably complete an electrical connection where the Mek ran out of wire and decided to jump the gap with a bit of wood.

Rutee
2008-03-25, 07:02 PM
First, orks never lose. If they win they win. If they retreat is to fight another day. And if they die they really don't care. This is the first lesson of orkish warfare.

Orks aren't invulnerable. If you can shoot enough stuff at them from a distance they die and they can kill you with those choppas. They also have the worst aim of the galaxy. At least they seem to believe good aim is for sissies.

Also orks fight for fun, and they are known to have let big enemies escape alive when they could have killed them just so they could fight them another day.

The WH40k universe is the orks playground no matter how you look at it. If the Emperium of men fortifies a planet that is being attacked by orks, the main result is that more orks will come to join the "fun".
I've read enough 40k to know this is all horse hockey. Try harder.

Actually this is hilarious. Everyone keeps claiming their 40k faction is da winnarz and the best. I guess that's because their fluff is written like oWoD's, where whoever's the focus of the fluff = the ones who'll win?



Also, I could shoot back that if exalted characters are so uber, how did they disapear? In the exalted fluff solars and all their mighty pals disapeared in history, while the simple mortals continued to exist. How is this possible if they were so strong?

Solars got beaten down by Dragonblooded and Sidereals (AKA other Exalted), in the canon. Most of the ones who died quickly died in the middle of things like one of their decadent orgies, from a Sidereal Adviser or Dragonblooded Servant becoming an assassin. Those who did not go down quickly levelled armies of the Dragonblooded. And keep in mind that the Dragonblooded would predominantly have been trained by the Solars, making them far more deadly then they ordinarily would be.

Even then, their victory was not as complete as it should be. 13 Solars became the Deathlords (of whom only 5 are elaborated on in canon, sot hat GMs get lots of wiggle room in making new ones), whom are First Age Solars on Exalted Crack. Many Lunars escaped to the Wyld, which they're the most capable of handling, and are still alive to this day. And the Solars are back, baby.

A First Age Solar is literally a match for the God Emperor of Man at his height. One. There are /300/ of them, and 300 of their mates and seconds, the Lunars. Their enemies are just that much more mighty compared to 40k, dood.

Oh, and the surprise attack? Only the Tau have a chance. Nobody else can even come close to pulling off surprise by deception on that level.

Dolash
2008-03-25, 08:07 PM
Here from 4chan's traditional games board (who are, by the way, less than amused with the notion that Exalted beats 40k. Nerd rage to be found here: http://zip.4chan.org/tg/res/1403903.html be warned though, that's 4chan you're looking at).

There's not even a question of who would win. Things like "The Rule of Cool" or whatever other dramatic imperatives don't work against 40k, because it's just a suggestion as to how a GM should run a game, not an actual universal law. If you want an example of such a law, however, the Orks have a "Rule of Cool" in that their weapons work due to the latent psychic belief that they do, and the greater the concentration of Orks the greater that power becomes, allowing for amazing feats of weapons engineering.

More critically than that, the Imperium possesses the power to destroy entire planets using weapons of massive destructive scale. Its' battleships are so huge as to dwarf Star Wars's Star Destroyers, and its' army numbers in the countless millions, likely billions of soldiers. The Grey Knight Space Marines slay demons with the power to devour millions of souls before breakfast. The Inquisition is filled with high-level psykers able to tear holes in the fabric of existance. Beyond that, sheer weight of numbers would decide the war, the Imperium being on many, many scales of magnitude larger than the world of Exalted. Even with all these features, the Imperium is the least of the threats likely facing Creation.

What about the soulless, utterly indestructible necrons and their ancient, unslayable star-gods? How do you contend with deities powered by a billion billion beings' raging emotions over the course of galactic history? The very least of the Chaos gods, Slannesh, devoured an entire civilization in the agony of her birth, this civilization possessing mighty gods, psychic gifts granted by the creators of life, and all manner of gifts equal to or greater than anything found in creation. Even the Tyrannids, by their sheer mass and capacity for slaughter, could simply press into and overflow over Creation in an unstoppable tide.

It's irrelevant wether a single fighter from one setting could defeat a single soldier of another, however. In the end, it's a sheer matter of scale. The 40k galaxy is countless orders of magnitude larger than Creation, and thus its' great powers are enlarged in scale to handle this larger jurisdiction. The Chaos Gods have power enough to corrupt billions of souls scattered across the entire galaxy simultaneously. The Necrons are numerous enough to cleanse all life everywhere in existance. The Imperium is the end result of forty thousand years of exponenital growth.

The sheer weight of the 40k galaxy cannot be matched. It would overwhelm and crush any recognized opposition in a stand-up fight.

Rutee
2008-03-25, 08:16 PM
More critically than that, the Imperium possesses the power to destroy entire planets using weapons of massive destructive scale. Its' battleships are so huge as to dwarf Star Wars's Star Destroyers, and its' army numbers in the countless millions, likely billions of soldiers. The Grey Knight Space Marines slay demons with the power to devour millions of souls before breakfast. The Inquisition is filled with high-level psykers able to tear holes in the fabric of existance. Beyond that, sheer weight of numbers would decide the war, the Imperium being on many, many scales of magnitude larger than the world of Exalted. Even with all these features, the Imperium is the least of the threats likely facing Creation.
I can stop any orbital space invasion with one newbie Solar and a five dot artifact. I can convert IoM, Eldar, and Ork armies with one middling Solar.


What about the soulless, utterly indestructible necrons and their ancient, unslayable star-gods? How do you contend with deities powered by a billion billion beings' raging emotions over the course of galactic history? The very least of the Chaos gods, Slannesh, devoured an entire civilization in the agony of her birth, this civilization possessing mighty gods, psychic gifts granted by the creators of life, and all manner of gifts equal to or greater than anything found in creation. Even the Tyrannids, by their sheer mass and capacity for slaughter, could simply press into and overflow over Creation in an unstoppable tide.
Chaos Gods are exactly the same as Exalted's Small Gods (Albeit Small Gods with a measure of Celestial status). No, seriously. They are incarnations of concepts. As to a Necron Army? Meet one Zenith, at Totemic Anima. Goobye Necron Army. Tyranids are what I'd throw Elementals and other Gods at, because they can respawn an arbitrarily infinite number of times.

C'Tan? They're weak to the Immaterium, and things of the Wyld and Warp. Meet the Fair Folk.



It's irrelevant wether a single fighter from one setting could defeat a single soldier of another, however. In the end, it's a sheer matter of scale. The 40k galaxy is countless orders of magnitude larger than Creation, and thus its' great powers are enlarged in scale to handle this larger jurisdiction. The Chaos Gods have power enough to corrupt billions of souls scattered across the entire galaxy simultaneously. The Necrons are numerous enough to cleanse all life everywhere in existance. The Imperium is the end result of forty thousand years of exponenital growth.
Blow up Creation; Solars can rebuild it. From nothing but Wyld or Warp. Notwithstanding that 40k has numbers of peons against the universe that explicitly states mowing through peons = moar power.

Back tot he depths of 4chan with ye, fa/tg/uy, along with your impotent nerd rage.

Dolash
2008-03-25, 08:17 PM
Actually, feel free to ignore my previous post if you wish, I've just struck upon something that seems more relevant to the argument at hand - it occurs to me that this argument is the very essence of an Apples and Oranges debate, comparing two systems who approach things from exactly opposite directions.

I do believe you may have hit the nail on the head with regards to the difference between the grim and dark, western-oriented view as espoused in 40k, and the anime-inspired, eastern-oriented view as seen in Exalted.

In grim and dark, you are one of many, fighting many, all die, no heroes, the common man crushed beneath the weight of prodigious movements on the galactic level far beyond his perceptions. Power is embodied in the form of those forces that oppose the individual, emphasizing the individual's irrelevance in the face of massive war machines, infinite armies, and galactic-sized oppressive and bureaucratic empires.

In anime, it's about the individual, empowered far beyond the masses so that their desires, significances, and actions are amplified a thousandfold. As power is nebulous and difficult to compare between the individuals who hold it, the individuals themselves become the important figures, the subtle points of their identities becoming central and interpreted through their individual powers. The group and the desires of society are irrelevant compared to the power and desires of the relevant individual.

Or something.

tl;dr comparing apples and oranges.

streakster
2008-03-25, 08:20 PM
^ Dolash.

Ridiculous. "Rule of Cool" is an actual exalted rule. You gain bonuses for describing your attack in a cool way. It's called stunts. It's not dramatic imperative - it's cut and dried.

A quick question - if Perfect Defense works as here stated, how on earth can you think you can win? That ability (Ability, mind you. Not fluff text.) means that that one character could take on the 40k and win - you can't beat what you can't hurt.

I get the feeling you've ignored part of this thread - the C'tan were dealt with a while back. And armies aren't much good against a world that has martial arts that allow to punch entire armies in the face. They "contend with deities" because they kill gods on a regular basis. And if you bring in your chaos gods, then they can bring in their deities.

{BTW, If the Necrons can clease the universe, why haven't they done so?}

Even if you killed all the Exalted, by some miracle, it doesn't help. They come back.

I'd back one Solar against all of 40K. Exalted is the second most overpowered system I've ever played, and when you get to the point where the game rules say "You take no damage, ever." then any competitor has lost.

Dolash
2008-03-25, 08:26 PM
^ Dolash.


I believe my second post sums up the best way to see this argument. It is impossible to compare wether one universe could defeat the other because their systems see things in diametrically opposite ways. We canot possibly know wether a Chaos God is comparable to a Small God or a mighty celestial whosit or so far beyond the power of Creation as to be unknowable. It's quality versus quantity, the unstoppable force versus the immovable object, one person empowered to "Take no damage, ever" versus an enemy so vast that they would physically bury creation in their dead before being defeated.

It cannot be known. It can't be compared. It's like asking if the colour blue could beat falsetto in a fight.

Rutee
2008-03-25, 08:27 PM
Stuff.

You're correct that they're incompatible on their premise, but part of your supporting statements don't synch with reality at all. Notably, "Anime emphasizes the individual", and "Western fiction emphasizes the masses" That's pretty much the opposite of the stereotype, actually, but yes, Grim n' Gritty fiction (Which can hardly be said to be more then a very small subset of Western Fiction as a whole) does in fact emphasize the masses crushing the one, which is, to an extent, the opposite of Exalted's Fluff and Crunch (Granted, Exalted can dogpile Exalted, but that's like saying Mini Supermen can dogpile Superman)

Mind, there's the problem that Exalted's rules and fluff SPECIFICALLY COVER WH40K's postulated values, whereas it's just a theme of WH40k (After all, WH40k has single, powerful units that are worth their points cost, no? They're not God, but they don't cost what God would be worth? That's just guessing though, the hobby is FAR too expensive for me to get into and check, so consider that an honest, but germane, question)


I'd back one Solar against all of 40K. Exalted is the second most overpowered system I've ever played, and when you get to the point where the game rules say "You take no damage, ever." then any competitor has lost.
Game rules and Fluff. But no, I don't think one Solar could beat all of 40k. One Circle could take the IoM, I'm sure, and MAAAAYBE one First Age Solar, but a small group out to beat the IoM at their source needs to be a Social Solar with War, at the barest minimum. Tiger Warrior Training Method, Husband Seducing Demon Dance, and FLB or FfBS are by definition necessary, as are the other War Charms.

So you'd need a few Circles, assuming Exalted's Fluff/Crunch trumps WH40k's theme (Because given that there are singly powerful, 'unkillable' Gods, I'm not sure there's not WH40k precedent for singly powerful characters who /can/ do that kinda thing. I mean really the GEoM is just a Solar who got beaten by his kid in a manner similar to the Solars). You need to convert the factions that think. Send some Zeniths and Fair Folk to deal with the Necrons, then send everyone else to curb stomp the Tyranids. Conversion counts as victory right?

streakster
2008-03-25, 08:31 PM
Ehh, I'm tired. Sorry about that Dolash, didn't see your second. I can agree with "Who knows?" as an answer.

Rutee: Yeah, that was exaggeration. Badly done too - I should sleep.

Just for fun, though, we should throw in a combined team of Chuck Norris, Batman, and Silver-Age Superman.

Dolash
2008-03-25, 08:35 PM
You're correct that they're incompatible on their premise, but part of your supporting statements don't synch with reality at all. Notably, "Anime emphasizes the individual", and "Western fiction emphasizes the masses" That's pretty much the opposite of the stereotype, actually, but yes, Grim n' Gritty fiction (Which can hardly be said to be more then a very small subset of Western Fiction as a whole) does in fact emphasize the masses crushing the one, which is, to an extent, the opposite of Exalted's Fluff and Crunch (Granted, Exalted can dogpile Exalted, but that's like saying Mini Supermen can dogpile Superman)



Anime and Grim & Dark are both subsets of eastern and western fiction respectively, so although my point might not hold for all eastern and western fiction, I would certainly say that the anime-inspired Exalted's emphasis on the individual is so universally incompatible with 40k's GrimDark emphasis on the group that they really are impossible to compare.

I mean, just for starters, it's not like the 40k galaxy can line up in a big blob for Exalted characters to fight all at once. "Defeating" the 40k universe would require traveling across a galaxy of massive scale and fighting on millions of worlds - even once time and distance have been conquered (not a mean feat, in and of itself) it's impossible to rule or control a galaxy of such size and teeming numbers, and the thought that an individual could utterly destroy millions of worlds is eyebrow-raising to say the least.

Again I am reminded of the unstoppable force and the immovable object. Does a Necron Phase weapon cut through some sort of "Cannot be stopped" divine block attack? The phase weapon is described as able to cut through anything, while the block is described as protecting against anything. Neither has a clear and definitive edge over the other, because neither sees the universe in the same way.

It cannot be done. End result is a draw or the whole mess divides by zero.

Rutee
2008-03-25, 08:45 PM
I handled Space actually, and in a reliable fashion for anyone traveling on a Solar Made Craft (Though I will admit in full that this used Exalted Metaphysics on a strong level) and Time is only a factor for your soon-to-be-converted Minions; Time breeds more Dragonblooded, and Celestial Exalted are effectively immortal in terms of Standard Mortal Killers (Hunger, thirst, age, disease)

Are there Perfect Defenses in WH40k, in any sense? Because Exalted has very clear rules on what happens when the Immovable Object and the Unstoppable Force meet; The Object does not move.

Chaplain Aretas
2008-03-25, 09:35 PM
First of all, don't discredit that you've never seen me before. I appear like wind, and vanish only to be a memory when the dish is best served cold.

In the first post, you say that all the sudden forces collided and the Wyld became the Warp, and Creation becomes a planet in both universes, which pretty much sum up to be two slices of bread, one with peanut butter and the other with jelly. Or Peas and Carrots. Either way, neither is comparable but they go well together.

So let's sit down and enjoy a small fluff portion:

The Solars have the Rule of Cool, and essentially they are perfect with literally no flaw and have the ability to sense all that is living in cases both demon, living, and ethereal. However, there is one rule in the Warhammer dimension that competes and nearly annihilates the Exalted realm. The most important rule, the one that all players are there to have fun, and everything is rolled on a six sided die, 123 being fail, 456 being success. So let's put the die roll into perspective. The Solars would continue their normal existence, and then suddenly one day they hear a peircing shriek belonging to countless billions stacked upon billions of all creations living and diing every day. Their power and odds begin to have pass/fail odds. Instead of a rule of cool, it is a Cool BUT Fair Rule... essentially they roll a 24 sided die, 1 fail, 23456789....24 pass. What happens is that they become all but perfect. Instantly 1 of every 24 Solar makes an intolerable mistake, killing people, destroying worlds, or even causing their own death. This makes them realize that some how by some mistake or order of an infinitely impossible understanding, their fates have become imbued with eternal possibilities.

That's not all. It is a mistake that the Solars would believe that Chaos is but one entity of demonhood. Wrong. Let's take Slaanesh first. This god, neither in a male perspective or female perspective has the will, ability, and finesse to charm any creation with its lusty pleasures. Some Solars who tap into Chaos will be eluded by the monstrous charm Slaanesh possesses, they instantly begin trials not to please their master, but rather to indulge their own bodies in order to feel their master. Next, Khorne. Remember that Solar that killed people, or blew up an entire world? He wasn't unseen under a baleful eye. Over time, the Solar loses his imperfection. He goes through a depression for the mistake, realizing that his bluff of perfection is now all but lost. The mistake happens again, but this time he feels good. It was a powerful mistake, but he realized he has power. He uses the Rule of Cool to decide how and why he will destroy more, pleasing the blood god seeing the carnage that is caused. Nurgle. The Reaper. You can guess which of your Eternal Wonder Warriors would become indulged in everlasting death only to reap and plague others into their mastery. Nurgle doesn't want to be worshiped himself, but rather see how his murk is folded onto life. Tzeench. Here's the fatal fold. He is the reason why reality is molded into ultimate and everlasting change. He knows death is inevitable for every being in the known universe. Upon his will, the threads of life are changed, hence his name. Unlike the other chaos gods of filth, Tzeench is a wise god, and becomes truly aware of the Solars and their power. He realizes they have a path that is also tangible by their whim. Using his wisdom, somehow he changes his persona into a Solar himself, erratically altering the thread of all existence into his plans. Note that his plans also involve failure, for no known cause. But since he imbues his power with the other Solars, the are aware of his mentaly directly, and utterly see things that should be seen by no one but Tzeench.

Eldar: Well, they're fast but they're panzies. Let's face it, go ahead. I actually WANT your Solars to erradicate the Eldar. Damn Lance Beams tearing my armor.

Orks yes, have the undeniable ability to paint their vehicles red and make them go faster - simply because they believe. Although, beliefs are contradicted every day. Based on fluff, an Ork can lose an arm due to a bolt round or a sword/axe, etc.. But a Painboy will come outta no where and attach a new arm good as new. Somehow that arm will work simply because the Painboy believes he is dead 'ard smart. The Orks regenerate as well, which is some odd reason why they dont have the "Without Number" Rule. The only way to truly kill an Ork is to burn it completely, mostly because they are PLANTS. Things that can be buried, grow a spore, and it becomes a mutated living monster with enough intelligence and psychic energy to slap two metal hunks together and have a machine gun without ammunition, but fires constantly. Once the ork drops his gun, it breaks and falls apart and the only salvagable evidence of being a real gun is a spring loaded into a pipe attached to the trigger, between two larger tubes of metal and a box.

The Imperium of man.. a constant ticking mass of countless billions as stated before, all living, birthing, and dieing constantly all for a greater purpose... to live completely and utterly and then die selflessly for the God Emperor of Mankind. Their past is shrouded in almost complete mystery, their technology is based off of a "Standard Construction Template" that is rarely altered, or fixed because everything met their peak nearly 20,000 years ago in the Age of Strife. It is considered a "Dark Age of Humanity" currently because even though a space marine wields a boltgun, he doesn't know why it works or who made it. Even though an Imperial Guard uses a Leman Russ Battle Tank, he doesn't know why it has survived for countless millennia. A Plasma gun works, simply because the Standard Template says so. A Meltagun works simply because it says so. After the Horus Heresy, almost all technology and advancement suddenly halted, the only improvements being Space Marine Armor Variants.

The Tyranids are attached to a massive hivemind from several different Colonies and forces. The Hivemind essentially is a bug with a single purpose: Devour, Continue, Survive. The number of Gaunts doesn't matter to the Hivemind, other than it retrieves the Biomass needed to survive. There is no possible way to unite any force with Tyranids for any reason, because all biological beings are in the same boat: kill all to survive, or die. Tyranids have no morals whatsoever, no regret, and certainly a charm level in the negatives. Therefore, no charm level would ever reach into the tiny and minuscule brains of even the Hivemind. They barely know how to perform interstellar travel, and merely perform this action because they need to.

The Tau have massive firepower. I can't say 'nuff said because that's overbearing and overachieving. Sure they have firepower, but it literally takes five Tau Firewarriors to best a single gaunt in combat, and a small Expititionary force is fighting against what... 50 million Tyranids with each fleet? Tau will find ways to interact with the Solars and the people of Creation by comparing the Greater Good with all the other practices and do anything to find a bond. Hell, they even managed to cope with bugs. I'm looking at YOU Vespids!!

Necrons. I think we've well covered them for the most part haven't we? No. Let's consider that the Necrons were around some 50,000 years even prior to the existence of Human Organisms. The C'tan, the Star Gods, were even well known to the Eldar at some time, considered to be Elder to them as well. That being said, the C'tan are a shrouded force even predating the Eldar themselves. That's got to say a lot about Star Gods, some that may even predate the creation of the Universe as a whole. Of course, that's all up to speculation from the Necromachines.

Essentially, the Games Workshop lead team would find a way to suck in the Exalted with its money, and find a way to convince the players to be "Fair and Honest" for once, and create a highly expensive campaign that would only last a summer that would include massive powered gods related in part to the Solars and what have yuh. It's not a comparison debate, it's just which side would Assimilate into the other one faster.

::Edited for minor mistake::

Rutee
2008-03-25, 09:45 PM
Neither side would assimilate the other. There's too many fans who consciously and actively reject the ideals of the other.

Honestly Exalted would probably win more converts, simply because roleplayers already have outlets for Grim n' Gritty, and they're more popular (Some are even published by the same company). Does Wargaming even /have/ an Exalted equivalent?

Edit: That's a stupid question after a quick moment of retrospect. You don't need other options in the same hobby.

GoC
2008-03-25, 09:52 PM
I mean, just for starters, it's not like the 40k galaxy can line up in a big blob for Exalted characters to fight all at once. "Defeating" the 40k universe would require traveling across a galaxy of massive scale and fighting on millions of worlds - even once time and distance have been conquered (not a mean feat, in and of itself) it's impossible to rule or control a galaxy of such size and teeming numbers, and the thought that an individual could utterly destroy millions of worlds is eyebrow-raising to say the least.
I bet that a solar with sufficient diplomacy power can permanently make people worship him. Sure he can't control the galaxy but now he can control any part he's in and noone else can any part.


Again I am reminded of the unstoppable force and the immovable object. Does a Necron Phase weapon cut through some sort of "Cannot be stopped" divine block attack? The phase weapon is described as able to cut through anything, while the block is described as protecting against anything. Neither has a clear and definitive edge over the other, because neither sees the universe in the same way.
Rutee, Is there a Perfect Dodge power?

Rutee
2008-03-25, 09:53 PM
Of course; Seven Shadows Evasion, Flowing Moonsilver Body, Duck Fate. But it wouldn't solve anything in a serious sense. It's much better to address the question of what WH40k says about Perfects, or something equivalent.

Chaplain Aretas
2008-03-25, 10:01 PM
Neither side would assimilate the other. There's too many fans who consciously and actively reject the ideals of the other.

Honestly Exalted would probably win more converts, simply because roleplayers already have outlets for Grim n' Gritty, and they're more popular (Some are even published by the same company). Does Wargaming even /have/ an Exalted equivalent?

I can't dissagree, Mostly because the players that obviously poast here would piss their pants and whine if they ever came up with a game that actually had no rule saying you can make up rules for yourself. It's like hearing children say they want Chaos Grey Knights, or a model of the Emperor, or even a model portraying a combined Avatar of all Four Chaos Gods. My point is the only reason people may even play Exalted is because it's a huge fad now to think you have power, but then go home and create sniffles and flame people who know that their power level is pathetic. Actually grow some balls, kid, and grow up to learn how to fashion, take care of, and hone skills to carry a burdensome army that may know failure at a pin-prick mistake, rather than patch it up with a "My Solar is more powerful than yours because it was prophesized at your meeting with mine that it's power would include IMMMUNITY TO ALL. Sorry, but even Baldr was killed by a single Mistletoe leaf. Loki was trapped in a gigantic Fish. Thor and Odin pledge to fight in Ragnarök forever. Kronos was killed by Zeus and his Mother by trickery and he was a Titan of a god! Face it, you're human and the reason you play this game in the first place and begin to compare one universe with an unmatchable universe is exactly why men compare **** sizes. It's all about win all or lose all.

I'm not saying that Warhammer is great. I hate how expensive it is, and I can't keep track of my forces, nor do I find all the time in the world to build it. I like it because in the end, they're all humble models with forces stacked and arrayed against them. It's all about survival baby.

Have you ever considered that Humanity is also a disease?

Rutee
2008-03-25, 10:16 PM
Buh bye. We're done. I'm not making Nerd Superiority Complexes my problem.

Also: 0/10

Chaplain Aretas
2008-03-25, 11:30 PM
I do quote this edit:

Rutee: "Edit: That's a stupid question after a quick moment of retrospect. You don't need other options in the same hobby."

Options is where the freedom is in a hobby. That's exactly why it's a hobby. To choose a strength for a weakness, only to open up a new weakness. To have ultimate and dominating power isn't a battle at all, it's all about who presses the Immortal button first. Learn to Hobby. You don't learn to play guitar in one day, you don't get immunity in one say.

Rutee
2008-03-25, 11:33 PM
You're not very good at using fauxlosophy to make people mad, are you?
But if earning fictional power that isn't meaningful outside of a story sense is that important to you, by all means, go for it. It's your time, right?

Edit: Are you going to say something that isn't a badly done attempt to reinforce your Nerd Rage or whatnot by inciting a nerd to anger over what amounts to a difference in preferences? 'cause.. that'd be strike three if you kept it up.

Count D20
2008-03-26, 01:40 AM
In GRIM'nDARK, you are one of many, fighting many, all die, no heroes, the common man crushed beneath the weight of prodigious movements on the galactic level far beyond his perceptions. Power is embodied in the form of those forces that oppose the individual, emphasizing the individual's irrelevance in the face of massive war machines, infinite armies, and galactic-sized oppressive and bureaucratic empires.

In EXALTED, it's about the individual, empowered far beyond the masses so that their desires, significances, and actions are amplified a thousandfold. As power is nebulous and difficult to compare between the individuals who hold it, the individuals themselves become the important figures, the subtle points of their identities becoming central and interpreted through their individual powers. The group and the desires of society are irrelevant compared to the power and desires of the relevant individual.
40k's uncaring universe disdains the heroism, fate, destiny, and individualism espoused by Exalted.

Also the medieval world view as real world of exalted is incompatible with 40k unless it's part of the warp.

Count D20
2008-03-26, 01:49 AM
Neither side would assimilate the other. There's too many fans who consciously and actively reject the ideals of the other.

Honestly Exalted would probably win more converts, simply because roleplayers already have outlets for Grim n' Gritty, and they're more popular (Some are even published by the same company). Does Wargaming even /have/ an Exalted equivalent?

Edit: That's a stupid question after a quick moment of retrospect. You don't need other options in the same hobby.

The only thing in minis that is comparable to exalted is maybe superheroes.

Even though I used to play Exalted quite a lot, the bull**** going on in that thread made me facepalm and cry at the same time (but then again my GM actually portrayed exalts as individuals with their own faliures and always found ways to remind us that no matter how omfglolhax we get we are still not totally omnipotent and there is always a way to fail / someone stronger).

Poison_Fish
2008-03-26, 06:37 AM
So much nerd rage.. and I consider myself one of the rare fa/tg/uys who is tired of all this "for the emperor" invading my board..

What happened to chess!?

That and /TG/ is in an extreme state of hate for any weeaboo influenced games. Again, because it's largely been taken over by WAAAGHRAGE! since it's creation.

But be fair to the young one Rutee, he at least deserves a 2/10.

And yes, you can't tell I nerd rage either? Don't you see my veins? They pop with an awesome power!

But seriously, if we take size and scope into account against Exalted, it just doesn't work for 40K. Throwing tons of extras at Dragon Blooded may help, but it certainly doesn't help against a Solar. It's literally just more fuel for the fire of what a solar can whip out.

Now, I think a full circle of solars with their lunar mates and siddie back up could take out the entirety of the 40k Verse. It'd just be over several millennia. As was stated earlier, fighting over billions of worlds, that still takes some time. But in a Solar's case, time is practically a non factor.

Honestly, though, what solar would want to waste his time in a campaign where each world is the exact same game/fight over and over again. Sounds boring to me. And 40k does have a lot of worlds, many being GRIM and DARK.

But I would agree, 40K and Exalted are on near opposite sides of the poles of whatever commonly assumed rating system we appear to be in quiet agreement about.

Tengu
2008-03-26, 06:46 AM
What happened to chess!?


This:
http://images.wikia.com/wowwiki/images/b/b3/Karazhan_chessevent.jpg

Which is actually a fun event, but calling it chess is like calling a man without fingers one of the best pianists in the world.

Poison_Fish
2008-03-26, 06:50 AM
This:
http://images.wikia.com/wowwiki/images/b/b3/Karazhan_chessevent.jpg

Which is actually a fun event, but calling it chess is like calling a man without fingers one of the best pianists in the world.

Psh, I remember the days of 2 manning that with a rogue..

Besides, any man can smash his head against a piano. If you get an infinite number of men smashing their heads, you can get Mozart.

Tengu
2008-03-26, 06:54 AM
And I remember the days of trying to solo it shortly after they made it impossible to sneak up to this place.
Pretty they weren't.

Poison_Fish
2008-03-26, 07:02 AM
We speak like yoda we do.

Anyhow, further thought on the topic at hand, the Extremes of 40k compared to the extremes of Exalted is what it comes down to. They just don't intermingle all to well, despite both being fun games. One being more dependent on the GM, with the downside of "My greatsword of mighticus of ownage kills your mother before she was born" if taken to the extreme. The other being more dependent on decent tactics and a set up to a good game, with the downside of "lulz, terrain here, ultramarines, lolololololol I win". That and a lot of kids. A freaking huge lot of them. That and lot of old guys. Not much middle ground at conventions.

No offense to you kids and/or old guys.

Rutee
2008-03-26, 11:29 AM
Even though I used to play Exalted quite a lot, the bull**** going on in that thread made me facepalm and cry at the same time (but then again my GM actually portrayed exalts as individuals with their own faliures and always found ways to remind us that no matter how omfglolhax we get we are still not totally omnipotent and there is always a way to fail / someone stronger
Hey, if he wants to write the stories for 300 FA Solars, 300 FA Lunars, 100 FA Siddies, and 100k FA Dragonblood, in excruciating detail, that's his business, and he's free to do it, and I'll even keep it in mind, but we can't depict an individual without having one first, and I'm intent on not droning on about my Exalted. As to 'someone stronger'.. A stronger Exalted during an actual game, yes. An actual game won't involve FA Solars, or if it does, it'll involve worthy challenges for them.


But be fair to the young one Rutee, he at least deserves a 2/10.
Mmm, I suppose someone with less understanding of what 4chan was would fall for it, as might someone who didn't have an education that showed the 'deep themes' of WH40k for the corporate drivel they are, but it's just so inconceivable..

Oslecamo
2008-03-26, 12:05 PM
I've read enough 40k to know this is all horse hockey. Try harder.

Actually this is hilarious. Everyone keeps claiming their 40k faction is da winnarz and the best. I guess that's because their fluff is written like oWoD's, where whoever's the focus of the fluff = the ones who'll win?





This is very true, unfortenetely.

If you read space marines fluff, they wipe out whole armies of imperial guards several thousand times bigger.

If you read imperial guard fluff then an imperial guard force is able to take down a space marine force with only ten times as much numbers, sometimes even less if leaded by specially skillfull IG comanders.


However, you're making an unfair comparison here. Exalted characters are the elite of their universe. But there are also elite units in the WH40k universe. Individuals who have achieved much bigger things than their normal counterparts. The Emperor would be one of them. Then we have his ten sons, each one of them arguably as strong as him, plus dozens of great humans who achieved great deeds along the millenias. And this is only in the human faction.

The eldars have champions who faced thousands of necrons during days in hand to hand combat whitout rest of any kind.

Some orkz arised to control countless masses of greenskins. And untill they are killed they won't die by themselves.

The Chaos gods blessed their mightiest champions into mighty beings who terrorrized the universe for milleniums. Oh, and they're also imortal.


Even the imperial guard has some mens who managed to take victory out of simply impossible odds.

The wh40k masses are not alone. They also have their own heros capable of mind boggling feats.

Also, if you claim that the orks powers is horse tockey, then please explain how are they able to build space shuttles and weapons strong enough to blow up the other factions armors, when they have no industry or schools whatsoever?

The IoM has a complex networck of thousands of planets for harvesting resources and giant factories to build their weapons and equipment. They need techpriests who have studied for decades and ancient powerfull technology.

However a group of orks who is born from spores in a random planet can build machine guns, rocket launchers, tanks and space ships in a matter of years from nothing more than scraps.

This is common with all the fluffs. Orks can make deadly weapons out of anything. Ork fleets are the bigger of the galaxies(with the exception of nid fleets, but those are very rare).

Finnally WH40K has something exalted will never have, and truly show the power of them.

Save or dies.

The eldars can create miniblackholes in the battlefield instantly sucking the enemy into the void never to be seen again.

Space marines have developed the deadliest toxins for their weapons able to take down the biggest tyrannid monsters in 1 shot.

Orks can blow pretty much anything.

Chaos forces also grant special corrupted weapons that also pretty much pierce any defense.

Exalteds are gonna roll 1 on their dices sooner or later. And the wh40k universe hasn't got lack of weaponss and hands to fire them.

WalkingTarget
2008-03-26, 12:23 PM
Exalteds are gonna roll 1 on their dices sooner or later. And the wh40k universe hasn't got lack of weaponss and hands to fire them.

Here's just my one little point on this topic. Exalts (err.. Solars at least, it's been a while) get what the game calls Perfect defenses. They don't have to roll, they just dodge/parry/block whatever attack: even if it doesn't make sense that they're able to do so.

Edit - yeah, I know it's been covered already, I'm only bringing up the die-rolling "you'll botch eventually" mentality as the Exalted system allows to do stuff without resorting to dice in the first place.

puppyavenger
2008-03-26, 12:45 PM
Do Exhalted need air?
also Streakster, whats the most overpowerd system you've played?

Tengu
2008-03-26, 01:12 PM
What's the thing with people saying Exhalted instead of Exalted? I've seen it in WoW too (because that's one of tthe reputations you can have with factions there).

Oslecamo
2008-03-26, 01:13 PM
Here's just my one little point on this topic. Exalts (err.. Solars at least, it's been a while) get what the game calls Perfect defenses. They don't have to roll, they just dodge/parry/block whatever attack: even if it doesn't make sense that they're able to do so.


I could argue that you can't dodge/block/parry mini blacholes, however I must ask this:

What is the fun of playing a game where nobody can lose(die) then? The characters can't die and the DM will just give the monsters those same perfect defenses and after 8 hours of playing they realize they'll never be able to kill each other and just throw the exalted book to the bin and go play D&D or warhammer 40k.

Tengu
2008-03-26, 01:17 PM
You can't spam perfect defense Charms - they are use-activated powers, and quite costly - no idea about second edition, but in first they cost in willpower, which cannot be regained by performing stunts.

Oslecamo
2008-03-26, 01:23 PM
You can't spam perfect defense Charms - they are use-activated powers, and quite costly - no idea about second edition, but in first they cost in willpower, which cannot be regained by performing stunts.

Well, you could already have said it. Since Wh40k weapons never seem to run out of ammo, or have at least a dozen rounds, then the exalted characters are gonna run out of perfect defenses much sooner than the wh40k armies run out of save or dies.

Rutee
2008-03-26, 01:26 PM
I could argue that you can't dodge/block/parry mini blacholes, however I must ask this:

What is the fun of playing a game where nobody can lose(die) then? The characters can't die and the DM will just give the monsters those same perfect defenses and after 8 hours of playing they realize they'll never be able to kill each other and just throw the exalted book to the bin and go play D&D or warhammer 40k.

You can explicitly parry Black Holes, or anything /else/. Perfects explicitly say "Even if it isn't feasible to block or parry this for any reason, it works". Strictly, even a *Dragonblooded* can block a Black Hole, because it's a nonmagical attack; Therefore, Portentous Comet Defense works (It's a Perfect Defense that can not be used on Magical attacks, including Charm-driven attacks)

And seriously what the hell? You can lose in Exalted. You just can not feasibly die until your defenses are theoretically exhausted. The problem is that WH40k is set up in such a way that Exalted /can not run out/ of essence. Why? I'll skip the middle and get to the point; Because peons refuel their Essence. The more you give them the chance to be awesome, the more they get Essence back. And they don't need to burn Essence on peons. They can't be overwhelmed by Peons either.

It therefore stands to reason that you don't fight peons in Exalted. You can lose, but generally speaking, it's going to be to significantly stronger enemies.

@V: Could be interesting. I'll give it a look. Why not? I give everything else one.

streakster
2008-03-26, 01:28 PM
GodWarsII.

I mentioned it in passing earlier, I think - it's actually not a tabletop rpg, and, as such, may be irrelevant. It is inspired by a White Wolf game, though. If you're looking at competing fictional universes, though, it could enter the fray.

The basic design philosophy is, "Why not be the legends of old, instead of in their shadow?" An unclassed character in GodWars is hideously powerful, by DnD standards - an unclassed magic user, for example, has a host of at-will spells, that he can make permanent for free. An acceptable starting character is a lightning-breathing dragon, or a vampiric dragon-summoning psychic. Note that when they just pick a class, their power will more than double.

One member of the GodWars universe could wreak havoc on either Exalted or 40K - one of the chief benefits of being a GodWars character (or Supernaturalis) is that you never die. Ever. Get your head lopped off? Walk it off - you'll be back in a minute or two. All Supernaturalis heal like crazy, and, should the worst happen, are more than tough enough to fight their way back out of hell. A suitable quest for a newbie is to hunt down the invincible Nemean Lion and take its pelt. Magic isn't as epic as in Exalted, though- it's more quick and dirty fireballs than careful sorcery. Which isn't to say it isn't impressive - when a Mage transforms into a titanic stone giant, then runs at 66 miles an hour to smack you down with a magic hammer, you're impressed. Into the ground.

So, yeah, completely overpowered, but crazy fun too. The most unique combat system I've ever played as well. Give it a try, if you like. link (http://www.godwars2.org/)

Tengu
2008-03-26, 01:36 PM
And seriously what the hell?

Probably a failed attempt at showing DND's superiority.

By the way, do perfect defense charms cost willpower in second edition, or essence only? I want to know how many mistakes did I do in my post.
Although a first edition character would probably win in WH40K too - because if a million enemies shoots at him, he can just infinitely block/dodge with charms, doing so in such a cool way that it won't cost any essence overall, and maybe one or two of these shoots will be lucky enough to bypass the defense (and probably deal no damage, as Exalted characters are very tough and usually armored in things that make them not notice when a planet falls on them).

Why am I participating in this discussion? I told myself not to.

WalkingTarget
2008-03-26, 01:38 PM
You can't spam perfect defense Charms - they are use-activated powers, and quite costly - no idea about second edition, but in first they cost in willpower, which cannot be regained by performing stunts.

I dunno in 2nd edition either, but if you get a 2 or 3 die stunt you can take a willpower instead of the essence in 1st ed.

Other responses: there's a 4-dot hearthstone that allows the one attuned to it to breathe "anywhere". Otherwise, there may be Survival-based charms that get around needing to breathe. I know there's a permanent-duration Charm that if your Essence is high enough you no longer need to eat and another that means that environmental hazards don't effect you.

As for fun: there's more to the game than combat. My longest running character was a Martial Artist who never actually killed anybody, over a few centuries of game time, without any form of perfect defenses (sure there was combat, but that's not the end-all point).

Mini-black holes: that's where the "even if it doesn't make sense" part of the rules comes into play. There's probably even rules that would allow somebody to knock the black hole back at whoever attacked with it (don't hold me to that, though).

Tengu
2008-03-26, 01:49 PM
I dunno in 2nd edition either, but if you get a 2 or 3 die stunt you can take a willpower instead of the essence in 1st ed.

Ah, right, thanks for reminding me about that rule!



As for fun: there's more to the game than combat.


Amen to that. Exalted, apart from having a very balanced and fun combat system, also has much more out-of-combat opportunities than DND or most other RPG systems.

Rutee
2008-03-26, 01:53 PM
No, Perfects don't use WP anymore. SSE is 2m, HGD is 3m, and I forget how much Adamant Skin Technique or Immunity to Everything Technique are. Ironskin Concentration is sufficient for most of the WH40k universe though, and I believe that's 2m (Roll Stam + Res vs. a difficulty equal tot he target's Essence; If you win, you've perfectly absorbed the attack. I figure Psyker potential qualifies as Essence in a manner, so it won't work on everyone, every time, but it should work on pretty much everyone.)

For that matter, Earth Immaculates are going to be really hard to kill for the WH40k vs; Pasiap Still Stands, the capstone of one of the Earth Elemented Martial Arts transfers all damage to the ground beneath your feet.(By RAW,this includes Perfects. As my game is Dragonblooded, I'm unsure whether to houserule otherwise).


Other responses: there's a 4-dot hearthstone that allows the one attuned to it to breathe "anywhere". Otherwise, there may be Survival-based charms that get around needing to breathe. I know there's a permanent-duration Charm that if your Essence is high enough you no longer need to eat and another that means that environmental hazards don't effect you.
All of these are correct, yes.

Oslecamo
2008-03-26, 02:25 PM
And seriously what the hell? You can lose in Exalted. You just can not feasibly die until your defenses are theoretically exhausted. The problem is that WH40k is set up in such a way that Exalted /can not run out/ of essence. Why? I'll skip the middle and get to the point; Because peons refuel their Essence. The more you give them the chance to be awesome, the more they get Essence back. And they don't need to burn Essence on peons. They can't be overwhelmed by Peons either.

It therefore stands to reason that you don't fight peons in Exalted. You can lose, but generally speaking, it's going to be to significantly stronger enemies.

@V: Could be interesting. I'll give it a look. Why not? I give everything else one.

By this logic, no villain in exalted would ever use peons, because they never get the job done and only end feeding the good guys, so peons would become extinct.

Indeed the villains of the exalted universe must be as dumb as rocks if they still didn't notice this.

But well, if the trouble is that peons refuel exalted characters, then no problem. Warhammer 40k has plenty of legendary/hero/unique units that aren't definetely peons. And since they also can carry save or die weapons and powers then the exalted characters are in trouble.

Tengu
2008-03-26, 02:30 PM
Exalted in Exalted are rare - mooks are used to fight other mooks, or by people who don't know enough about Exalted to know that it's fruitless to fight them with mooks. Most fights that players participate in, however, are Exalted vs other types of Exalted or similar creatures, like powerful spirits or demons. From these fights that are supposed to be a challenge, that is.

And no, WH40K characters won't be able to use the same powers as Exalted - because, duh, they are not Exalted, and therefore cannot use Charms.

Rutee
2008-03-26, 02:39 PM
By this logic, no villain in exalted would ever use peons, because they never get the job done and only end feeding the good guys, so peons would become extinct.

Indeed the villains of the exalted universe must be as dumb as rocks.

But well, if the trouble is that peons refuel exalted characters, then no problem. Warhammer 40k has plenty of legendary/hero/unique units that aren't definetely peons. And since they also can carry save or die weapons and powers then the exalted characters are in trouble.

Well, those single characters can't deal with Perfects, unfortunately for 40k, and 40k's legendary units are swarmable in the first place, no? Just use some 40k troops that were converted by a Socialite and trained and led by an Exalted General who makes Zhuge Liang look like Custer, if they really are that nasty, but swarmable.

That's another problem that 40k may run into. The only people capable of weird or out there effects seem to be the Psykkers; Everyone else only seems capable of shooting things (Or hitting them, etc). How will the 40k verse deal with a Solar who can convince Space Marines that the Emperor's Will be damned, the Solar's got the right idea, and is far more worthy of their devotion then a distant grandfather who's never even seen fit to visit?

As to peons.. any villain a Solar fights won't be using peons on a Solar, so your premise (Villains in Exalted are morons because they throw peons at Solars) is incorrect.


The basic design philosophy is, "Why not be the legends of old, instead of in their shadow?"
I don't seek to expand the fight, Streakster, please don't take this as such; I just want to point out that this is Exalted's design philosophy as well. Herakles, the Yellow Emperor, Zhuang Zhi, Archimedes, Gilgamesh, and many other mythical inventors, philosophers, warriors, and heroes are cited as good starting points for Solars.

Oslecamo
2008-03-26, 02:40 PM
And no, WH40K characters won't be able to use the same powers as Exalted - because, duh, they are not Exalted, and therefore cannot use Charms.

I'm not talking about charms or exalted cheese.

I'm talking about warhammer 40k cheese like calling your personal battlecruiser able to blow up stars or your personal bolter wich can wipe out whole armies or that cursed sword of chaos that pierces all defenses.

Rutee
2008-03-26, 02:43 PM
Cute. I still Perfectly bat it away, or perfectly reflect it back at you. I recognize that you have problems intellectually grasping the Rule of Cool, so given that, are you sure you want to even waste your time trying this debate? You simply can not beat with logic a system that explicitly states "Logic stops applying".

Also: "Cheese" is when you job the system to do things it was not intended to do.

Solars are intended, by the Fluff and the game mechanics, to accomplish any task perfectly.

Oslecamo
2008-03-26, 02:53 PM
Well, those single characters can't deal with Perfects, unfortunately for 40k, and 40k's legendary units are swarmable in the first place, no? Just use some 40k troops that were converted by a Socialite and trained and led by an Exalted General who makes Zhuge Liang look like Custer, if they really are that nasty, but swarmable.

That's another problem that 40k may run into. The only people capable of weird or out there effects seem to be the Psykkers; Everyone else only seems capable of shooting things (Or hitting them, etc). How will the 40k verse deal with a Solar who can convince Space Marines that the Emperor's Will be damned, the Solar's got the right idea, and is far more worthy of their devotion then a distant grandfather who's never even seen fit to visit?


Everything is swarmable in Wh40k...If you play badly and expose him needlessly. If you play well, taking cover and waiting for the right moment to strike, that legendary unit with that uber bolter, sword and armor is going to tear a big hole in the enemy army all by himself.

And yeah, you're right, psykers are the strongest guys in Wh40k. But guess what? 99% of the big guys in the WH40K universe are big because they had latent psyker powers that helped them do impossible things like deflecting bullets by force of will, flying, keeping the moral of their troops up, etc, etc.

Also, the warp has the nasty effect of creating psyker powers on normal people, so normal humans who have fighted the chaos forces for years and years ends up developing psyker powers.

So if the solar tries to convince the space marine squad that the emperor is wrong, all he'll get in response is the chapter's librarian shouting off quotes from their book and loosing an hail of bullets.

But it gets even better.

What if I pick a legendary army? There are several groups of warriors that have atained legendary status after several big deeds. They're basically adventuring parties that instead of 4 people have 400 or 4000 or 40000.

They'll not count as peons, but still have numbers on their side.

For example,the 13th space wolves company, wich has been locked in the warp for milleniums fighting the chaos forces whitout any kind of reinforcment. There are even special rules for them.

Anyway, it's funny that the SM also are intended by fluff as being the most perfect and mighty things humanity has ever created.