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Crow
2007-12-27, 05:57 PM
I was considering banning the evocation school for a specialist wizard and using the Shadow Evocation spells to make up for the loss.

For the spell Sonic Shield, the spell grants the caster a +4 deflection bonus to AC, and damages anyone who hits him.

If cast as a Shadow Evocation, the attacker would get to save vs. the illusion to disbelieve it in order to not take damage. Would a successful save eliminate the +4 deflection bonus the spell was granting the caster as well? Since objects always make their saves vs. Shadow Evocation, would an object like a sword ignore the deflection bonus no matter what?

Also, how do spells like Wind Wall function when cast as Shadow Evocations?

cupkeyk
2007-12-27, 06:03 PM
Objects use their wielder's saves. Anywho, if you want that spell, get a couple of ranks in Knowledge History, get Spell Reprieve from lost empires of faerun and you can select one spell from your banned school and you may now add it to your spell list.

valadil
2007-12-27, 06:05 PM
I don't think the shadow spells are well defined enough to say for sure, so this one is up to your GM.

If I were your GM I'd say that against a foe who disbelieves the illusion your shield would work at 20% capacity, which I'd round to +1.

ocato
2007-12-27, 06:17 PM
Note the Orb spells from the spell compendium if you feel the lack of direct damage (Searing Ray, et al) is somehow hurting your fun. You can also partially negate the loss of Wind Wall by taking the less effective Protection from Arrows. I, personally, can't stand dropping evocation. A Wizard who can't cast Magic Missile just seems wrong to me. No Fireballs? Ever? I know it's suboptimal, but even Batman has grenades and stuff that goes boom. But I can see how one would make that choice, and I think it's probably a decent one.

Aquillion
2007-12-27, 06:17 PM
I don't think the shadow spells are well defined enough to say for sure, so this one is up to your GM.Actually, I think the wording of the spell is pretty clear on this (although it's something DMs are likely to houserule, so you should clear it with them before you build your character around it):


Spells that deal damage have normal effects unless an affected creature succeeds on a Will save. Each disbelieving creature takes only one-fifth damage from the attack. If the disbelieved attack has a special effect other than damage, that effect is one-fifth as strong (if applicable) or only 20% likely to occur. If recognized as a shadow evocation, a damaging spell deals only one-fifth (20%) damage. Regardless of the result of the save to disbelieve, an affected creature is also allowed any save (or spell resistance) that the spell being simulated allows, but the save DC is set according to shadow evocation’s level (5th) rather than the spell’s normal level. The sentence in italics is the only part that could possibly apply to the question you asked (the rest is just for damage, and, as you noted, the rules for the damage part of the spell are obvious.)

A +4 deflection bonus is not an attack, and, therefore, I can't see how that sentence would affect it. You get the full bonus no matter who or what makes their saves... although, as I noted, your DM is quite likely to houserule differently, since this is a strange outcome.


Objects use their wielder's saves.Not exactly. At least, not in the way you're thinking. An attended object that is specifically targeted by an effect created by Shadow Evocation will get to use its wielder's will save bonus... but that won't matter, since it will still automatically succeed. I don't think that that matters in this case, though... having their sword make a save to get past your Shadow Evocation is definitely not anywhere in the rules.

valadil
2007-12-27, 06:28 PM
Actually, I think the wording of the spell is pretty clear on this (although it's something DMs are likely to houserule, so you should clear it with them before you build your character around it):


The reason I say they're not so clear is because shadow conjuration states that they are one fifth as strong as the real things. It then gives two examples where the 20% for disbelief applies: damage spells and summoned creatures' hit points. I realize we're looking at shadow evocation and not shadow conjuration and if you're looking strictly at evocation it only mentions damage (maybe it didn't occur to the editors that evocation does anything but damage?). If you go on the basis that shadow spells essentially function the same way with only the school, level, and strength varying between them, then shadow evocation should include other effects besides HP damage. It seems silly to me that shadow evocation would be 20% real damage while shadow conjuration would be 20% real damage and HP of Summoned Critters.

Arbitrarity
2007-12-27, 06:28 PM
Will disbelief (if interacted with)

Nondamaging effects have normal effects except against those who disbelieve them. Against disbelievers, they have no effect.

I think attacking a shield counts as interaction, so since it's a non-damaging effect, will negates. The AC bonus, that is. Damage is 1/5 by the same save.

HydwenPrydain
2007-12-27, 07:59 PM
I would think the wisest thing to do would be to ignore the word "attack" and just assume that it's 20% as effective (the AC bonus and damage) and anything else is 20% likely to occur, i.e., the save vs. (is it deafness? I can't remember Sonic Shield).

Wind Wall, I suspect, would be 20% likely to effect a projectile passing through it (or a breath weapon, or what have you.)

HydwenPrydain
2007-12-27, 08:02 PM
I would think the wisest thing to do would be to ignore the word "attack" and just assume that it's 20% as effective (the AC bonus and damage) and anything else is 20% likely to occur, i.e., the save vs. (is it deafness? I can't remember Sonic Shield).

Wind Wall, I suspect, would be 20% likely to effect a projectile passing through it (or a breath weapon, or what have you.)

Keld Denar
2007-12-28, 12:46 PM
A Shadow Evoced Wind Wall would by 100% as effective as a real Wind Wall unless one of the following occured:

A) Someone recognizes that it was a shadow spell cast, rather than a real spell. This is usually accomplished via spellcraft checks, however Arcane Sight would reviel the spell as illusion rather than evocation, which would tip off the person.

B) Someone interacted with it, and made their will save. Now, what "interact with" means is really up to the DM, but I'd say that shooting an arrow at a Shadow Wind Wall would not count as interacting with it. A person getting hit by a Shadow Fireball is definitely interacting with it.

Once one of the above conditions is met, the spell becomes "quasireal". Quasireal spells have a partial chance to affect the target, or deal partial damage. So, a person who made a spellcraft check vs a Shadow Wind Wall would still have a 20% chance to be affected by it. Shadow magic conjours up "shadowstuff" which still has tangible effects on the Prime. They aren't just hollow images like holograms. The reality check would be made once, upon the meeting of one of the above conditions.

If you want to see scary stuff, watch a Shadowcraft Mage (Killer Gnome) in action in actual play. I have. Shadowy Entomb(90% real) and Shadowy Summon Elemental Monolith(120% real) are freakin scary spells, especially when they are found to be near or over 100% real. I'm still waiting to see a Shadowy Black Blade of Disaster(120% real), which will be throwing around 66d6 damage a round (CL 33) at level 15...

Roderick_BR
2007-12-28, 02:06 PM
Personally, I never liked Shadow Evocation. A spell that allows you to cast ANY spell from ANOTHER school?
Let's make also Evocating Divination, Divinating Abjuration, Abjurating Necromancy, Necromantic Summoning, Summoning Charming, Enchanting Transmutation, Polymorphing Illusion.

It's just the using shadows to emulate evocation doesn't sound right to me. Doesn't make much sense.

Thrythlind
2007-12-28, 02:21 PM
I'm still waiting to see a Shadowy Black Blade of Disaster(120% real), which will be throwing around 66d6 damage a round (CL 33) at level 15...

Ahhhh, Black Blade of Disaster

Also Known As: the Ragna Blade, one of Lina Inverse's more powerful spells, just a bit over the Dragon Slave and a lot under the Giga Slave