Defending Gaming

[Highwarlord]

How would you people describe gaming in general in a positive light? That is, show it to be something inherently productive or character building rather than just a pass-time?

[Triaxx]

First thing I'd point to, is that it's something everyone can enjoy. Then I'd point to Penny Arcade, and their charity. Then the PS3, and folding@home.

Then mention the studies proving that it increases hand-eye co-ordination. The Wii being used for rehabilitation.

[Eldritch_Ent]

Gaming isn't any better or worse than other forms of entertainment. It's not really any different than a movie or book or comic strip or Radio program...

[Solo]

Doesn't kill your eyes like playing on a TV/computer does.



I write this message to you from my laptop.

[Icewalker]

Actually, many games do help teach people in different manners...

I know more about this in the focus of MMOs. They help teach people to coordinate groups and the like. Especially things like running a guild.

I can't really describe it too well...

[Cuddly]

I wouldn't defend gaming. There's very little good about it. It doesn't develop any skills I can think of that are valuable in real life. Maybe cooperation? Maybe. More like "spwn cap j00 nub!!!!1"

[Metal Head]

It teaches boys who don't have deep voices yet that lots of swearing doesn't compensate for the fact that they sound squeeky when they talk. And the greatest benefit? You can shoot ***holes through the internet. How cool is that?

[Cuddly]

It teaches boys who don't have deep voices yet that lots of swearing doesn't compensate for the fact that they sound squeeky when they talk. And the greatest benefit? You can shoot ***holes through the internet. How cool is that?

Hahaha, touche!

[Om]

How would you defend watching TV or listening to music? "Gaming" is no more inherently productive than any other form of leisure. It is a lot more fun though

[bluish_wolf]

Gaming is an incredibly broad category, though. I mean, technically sports are games, so they are gamers as well.

[ocato]

I agree, you will have to narrow your definition of gaming (or specify which facet you are referring to) before this can adequately be discussed. Online gaming (MMO or counterstrike style n00b pwning l33t sh00t3rs?), tabletop, boardgames, console mashers, LARP?

[Daze]

I'll assume we're talking specifically about video games here...

1) It's interactive. No other medium can claim this (perhaps Choose your own Adventure books, heh). If it's interactive, it's stimulating. Studies have shown children who game (vs those who dont) perform better in creative, practical and logical exercises.

2) It improves hand-eye coordination and motor dexterity. This should be obvious to anyone who can move their thumbs at 100 mph, but it has been scientifically shown too.

3) A sidebar to point # 1... Gaming promotes problem/puzzle solving skills and can promote cooperation skills (at least it should).

4) In recent years, the power of these high-end consoles and PC's has allowed them to be networked to do all sorts of useful things. Mapping genomes, exploring space, curing cancer... anything that requires massive amounts of CPU power.

5) They're fun. Fun is good. Dont let anyone tell you different. If you're having fun, you're happier.... if you're happier, you're healthier. If your healthier, you're happier and will have more fun.... and on it goes...

6) It's a good release of frustration. Instead of beating someone up? Go play Fight Night... wanna ram someone off the road? Pick up GTA or a racing game. Some like to say video games encourage violence, but it's really the opposite. For every one kid who does something stupid and blames it on games, there's a thousand who released their angst in a harmless manner with nothing more than their thumbs and wits. (Besides the fact, that "one" kid woulda shot up his school regardless of what games/movies/music was out there).

7) They're fun and I like them. Do I bother YOU about what you like? I aint hurting no one. I still go to work, have friends, a girlfriend, pets and family... generally well adjusted. So leave me alone and do what you wanna do. (Watch birds or whatever)


Happy New Years Playground!

[Semidi]

Most of these I'd agree with, I'd in another one.

I learned to type well through online gaming after failing at all forms of typing classes.

Also, some games, specifically RPGs can be intellectually stimulating. Playing a text heavy game (BG, Planescape, and so on) requires as much reading as a novel.

[warty goblin]

I learned squad based tactics and how to burstfire an automatic weapon gaming. Wait...

Anymore I consider gaming just an interactive narrative experience that I use as a hanger for mental stories. I don't think about time I spend gaming as that fundamentally different as time I spend reading, both are ways to experience stories. In games I generally create a lot of the story as I go, using the game's plot (if it has one) as a general frame, and building from there. In a book I have the plot and characters handed to me and I merely need to visualize them. Two sides of the same coin.

I also find that getting a nice hour or two of gaming in a day relaxes me quite well- sometimes right before a test rather than more fruitless review I'll go and play something, usually easy and mindless for fifteen minutes because it puts me in a better frame of mind for the test. I'm confident instead of worried, and its not like I was going to make a difference in my grade during those fifteen minutes anyway. (I'm not recommending gaming as a study technique, merely a relaxent after studying for the last three days or so).

[Highwarlord]

All right. I'm not trying to defend it as a medium ("No, video games don't cause violence.") so much as I'm trying to defend it as not being a waste of time.
The two most common defenses I've seen are the cyber-sport context (team building, reflexes, etc for those who can't/won't get the same out of a real world sport) and computer skills building (typing, promoting advancement of CPU power). The other defense I'd bring up would be field specific aides - game design leads to people pursuing engineering, coding a game enlists another coder, etc.
Do you (the boards/gaming community) think this last one is legitimate?

[Artanis]

The US military designed a video game to help train soldiers. 'nuff said.

[Driderman]

It's hobby like so many others. Some people have fun getting sweaty on a football field, other people bash each others heads in for sport. Gaming is just a different way to have fun, like say collecting stamps is different from practicing martial arts. It's all hobbies done for entertainment, and in some cases competetion.
There's really nothing to defend. As with all things it can be overdone and some people will take it to extremes. Football hooligans being a prime example.
A couple of virtues of gaming, as I see it, are the facts that it can be mentally stimulating and also the hand-to-eye coordination and such.

As a personal note, I find it a great way to release frustration. I remember when my parents told me they were going to divorce I was very upset. I went home, loaded up my copy of Syndicate on my Amiga and proceeded to eradicate a couple of cities. After that, I wasn't really bothered by their divorce :smallsmile:

[TheLogman]

Ahem, ready? Let's go!

1. Hand-Eye coordination
2. Increased Typing skills
3. Puzzle solving
4. Increased ability in planning
5. Social interaction with stupid people
6. Great fun at parties
7. Physical training (DDR)
8. Faster Thought process
9. Cooperation skills
10. Exposure to different languages (RE 4, MMORPGS)
11. Reading Comprehension
12. Concentration
13. Social interaction with different cultures
14. Math practice
15. Deeper understanding of probability

[Cuddly]

I'll assume we're talking specifically about video games here...

1) It's interactive. No other medium can claim this (perhaps Choose your own Adventure books, heh). If it's interactive, it's stimulating. Studies have shown children who game (vs those who dont) perform better in creative, practical and logical exercises.

Uh, what? The real world is pretty damn interactive. More interactive than a video game.

Also, do you have a source for those studies?


2) It improves hand-eye coordination and motor dexterity. This should be obvious to anyone who can move their thumbs at 100 mph, but it has been scientifically shown too.

By who? Where? I've read that it increases your hand eye coordination- for playing more video games. I've also read that they contribute to the widespread fatassery of America.


6) It's a good release of frustration. Instead of beating someone up? Go play Fight Night... wanna ram someone off the road? Pick up GTA or a racing game. Some like to say video games encourage violence, but it's really the opposite. For every one kid who does something stupid and blames it on games, there's a thousand who released their angst in a harmless manner with nothing more than their thumbs and wits. (Besides the fact, that "one" kid woulda shot up his school regardless of what games/movies/music was out there).

By the same token, how do you know people with good hand eye coordination don't play video games, or with good puzzle solving skills, or above average creativity? If you want to say video games don't encourage violent thinking (and by extension, behavior), then you have just set up an argument against the possibility that video games train dexterity and problem solving abilities.


7) They're fun and I like them. Do I bother YOU about what you like? I aint hurting no one. I still go to work, have friends, a girlfriend, pets and family... generally well adjusted. So leave me alone and do what you wanna do. (Watch birds or whatever)

They sure are fun; but they have few redeeming qualities, other than being fun.

[Yami]

Ah yes, this one.

I have often had to defend gaming from others who know me.

I would like to point out that games are fun. Gaming, is thusly fun. How would you describe a life void of fun? Would it be a sucessful life? Would it be a happy life?

Sure you can point out that roleplaying helps nuture creativity and teaches one to work in a group, but the whole point of gaming and games is that it brightens your day. I fail to see how someone can understand this and still consider gaming a 'waste of time'.

Oddly enough, I find that such people who cannot understand the inherent concept behind gaming are often unhappy peoples.

[Jibar]

Well, I know certainly for me though I'm not sure about others, video games can really bring out the best in people.
In life I'm pretty average in all areas, and darn right crap in others. I can't do sports, my basic skills are basic, I have a competent general knowledge and am basically capable of going about life comfortably.
But put a controller in front of me... I'm capable of pulling off split second reactions, precise aiming over a range of several hundred feet, a level of skill that I show in nothing else but video games.
This has, in some areas, crossed over to the rest of my life. MMORPGs gave me excellent typing speed and precision (I was about the only person I knew who could raid in full English), I gained a level of marksmanship in terms of aiming, my awareness of my surrondings was increased, I picked up a knack for all kinds of puzzles, and I built up an almost perfect memory if I could apply to video games.
I still remember that teleological means it is concerned with consequences, as Telos was destroyed thanks to the consequences of Revan's actions during the Mandalorian Wars.

[LordVader]

Well, I can throw in my 2c on tabletop gaming.

In my opinion, this is one of the best forms of gaming, whether it be D&D or Warhammer 40k. You interact with real people, not some CGI avatar. This is the most important aspect. I don't mean to devaule anyone who has a lot of friends they've made through gaming and that they never see, but there really is no substitute for seeing someone in person.

In the case of tabletop wargames, you assemble and paint your own models, making it into a quasi-art form. In the case of D&D, you have to make a character, and his background, which requires a good amount of creativity.

So overall, I'd say that while maybe video games build hand-eye coordination, they're not positive overall, especially not compared to the various forms of tabletop gaming we have.

It is important to remember, though, as Yami pointed out, games are inherently made to be fun, and not eductational.:smallwink:

[Beleriphon]

4) In recent years, the power of these high-end consoles and PC's has allowed them to be networked to do all sorts of useful things. Mapping genomes, exploring space, curing cancer... anything that requires massive amounts of CPU power.

From a functional level the ultra powerful home computer is directly the result of people wanting to have better and better game experiences rather than practical home or office applications. A 286 processor will run a word processor just fine, but it wont run Crysis if you get my drift.

[Triaxx]

So overall, I'd say that while maybe video games build hand-eye coordination, they're not positive overall, especially not compared to the various forms of tabletop gaming we have.

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you. Gaming is positive, because it doesn't inspire you to meet and talk to other people. I've found myself talking gaming with people that I would normally not have had anything to do with, due to normal circumstances. Gamers from other parts of the world, people that otherwise would have driven me off because of religious affliation. Gaming is a unifying force. It's color blind, doesn't care what your orientation is, or where you live. And hey, if I decide I want to kill you, we can jump in the game and do it, instead of actually shooting at each other.

So yes, video games are a positive experience.

[Om]

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you. Gaming is positive, because it doesn't inspire you to meet and talk to other people. I've found myself talking gaming with people that I would normally not have had anything to do with, due to normal circumstances. Gamers from other parts of the world, people that otherwise would have driven me off because of religious affliation. Gaming is a unifying force. It's color blind, doesn't care what your orientation is, or where you live.The same can be said of knitting. Or sport. Or almost any hobby under the sun.

[LordVader]

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you. Gaming is positive, because it doesn't inspire you to meet and talk to other people. I've found myself talking gaming with people that I would normally not have had anything to do with, due to normal circumstances. Gamers from other parts of the world, people that otherwise would have driven me off because of religious affliation. Gaming is a unifying force. It's color blind, doesn't care what your orientation is, or where you live. And hey, if I decide I want to kill you, we can jump in the game and do it, instead of actually shooting at each other.

So yes, video games are a positive experience.

My point is that while yes, you can make friends through gaming, it really isn't the same as actually going out and interacting with people who are actually there.

Something just kinda gets lost in the transistion.
Also, in gaming, it's easier to ignore people you normally wouldn't have anything to do with. If you run into one of these people while TT gaming, you have to put up with them, and maybe you'll learn something from it. If someone annoys you in VG gaming, you can just boot them or quit out of the game.

[Castaras]

My point is that while yes, you can make friends through gaming, it really isn't the same as actually going out and interacting with people who are actually there.

Something just kinda gets lost in the transistion.
Also, in gaming, it's easier to ignore people you normally wouldn't have anything to do with. If you run into one of these people while TT gaming, you have to put up with them, and maybe you'll learn something from it. If someone annoys you in VG gaming, you can just boot them or quit out of the game.

I personally find it harder to meet people in real life. I avoid everyone, unless they directly come over to me.

Which I'm sure people I talk to over MSN, etc know...I'm better now with people, because of gaming, and such. Through gaming, I met people, I gained confidence in Real Life.

I learnt to cope with people I didn't like as much.

In real life, you can see what Gaming has done to help me be better with people.

Okay, it was also these forums that helped, but these forums I got led to through gaming. (through leaving Runescape, and searching for somewhere better to go to)

[Triaxx]

My point is that while yes, you can make friends through gaming, it really isn't the same as actually going out and interacting with people who are actually there.

Something just kinda gets lost in the transistion.
Also, in gaming, it's easier to ignore people you normally wouldn't have anything to do with. If you run into one of these people while TT gaming, you have to put up with them, and maybe you'll learn something from it. If someone annoys you in VG gaming, you can just boot them or quit out of the game.

Not really any harder. If I run into one of those people, even while face to face, I'll eject them, bodily if I have to if they're causing problems. And I know that I've gotten up and walked away when I had a problem with the DM.

But just because I game, doesn't mean that I sit in my basement and stare at the screen all day long. I regularly go out and chat with friends.

Om: True, but it's kind of hard to do competitive knitting with someone living across the atlantic ocean. Even harder to play soccer, or go paintballing.

[Solo]

Defending gaming? I believe the best defense is a good offense, so instead of defending gaming, I turn the tables and make others defend their hobbies if they give me any trouble.

"Golf, you say? But isn't a golf course just a waste of a perfectly good rifle range?"

[Proven_Paradox]

Objectively, I know that gaming is just another hobby, much like many others.

Subjectively, gaming is MY hobby, and a million different kinds of awesome. Many, if not all of my current friends, I met because we game together, or we've played games and talked about it afterwards.

It's helped my typing abilities tremendously, and since I'm on my way to programming as a career, that's a rather important skill to hone. It's exposed me to new and fantastic worlds, leaving me capable of imagining worlds even more fantastic in my mind, while I found many (but not all) of my non-gaming peers stuck in rather ordinary and (to me) boring ruts. It's given me a harmless outlet for venting my frustrations; getting that 1000 kill count on Dynasty Warriors can be incredibly therapeutic. It's given me a great understanding of mathematics and probability. It provided mental stimulation in my formative years, when school was unyeildingly boring and easy; I credit gaming for slowing the mental stagnation I found myself dealing with while sleeping through lessons and still making top of class.

I think the next step for gaming is to make it understood that gaming can be a valid art form, with plots as deep as any novel and art as beautiful as any painting. Games have the singular advantage of really drawing you in to your character's role--their victories are your victories too, and their defeats are felt particularly hard because YOU are the one deciding their fate. Because of this, you can really form a connection with these characters. In a sense, you need each other; you need them to fight, and they need you to guide them to victory. Perhaps I'm reading too far into this, but it's a connection I've certainly felt on more than one occasion.

Are there other ways to do this? Absolutely. Are there problems with gaming? Of course. Still, the experience, when approached with the proper mindset, is incredibly positive.

[Albub]

Let me fix that for you.


I'll assume we're talking specifically about video games here...

1) It's interactive. No other medium can claim this (perhaps Choose your own Adventure books, heh). If it's interactive, it's stimulating. Studies have shown children who game (vs those who dont) perform better worse in creative, practical and logical exercises.

*snip*


Happy New Years Playground!

I can't see any benefit from gaming, and it even gets me angry at times. It's just a way to pass the time. Sports are a much better way to spend your time in terms of practicality, but gaming is really fun, so I do both.

[Rutee]

What's to defend? It causes less violence then sports, and allows at least as much edification as fictional literature.

[Daimbert]

How would you people describe gaming in general in a positive light? That is, show it to be something inherently productive or character building rather than just a pass-time?

I wouldn't; gaming IS a pass-time ... just like reading, watching TV, watching movies, watching sports, knitting, etc, etc.

[LordVader]

Daze, I think you'll find most hobbies are fairly interactive. :smalltongue:

In any case, gaming hardly has a monopoly on this.

[EvilElitest]

Actually, many games do help teach people in different manners...

I know more about this in the focus of MMOs. They help teach people to coordinate groups and the like. Especially things like running a guild.

I can't really describe it too well...

WOW is used for training miltary commanders at west points strangely enough
from
EE

[Demented]

Friendly fire! Minus 50 DKP!


Personally, I like to oggle the graphics and story and somesuch. It's just like going to an art gallery to see the Mona Lisa, except that you end up shooting strange creatures and solving benign switch puzzles.

[Rutee]

WOW is used for training miltary commanders at west points strangely enough
from
EE

Pics or it didn't happen.

Mind, I know exactly why it /would/ be, and I have said for years that hte only people who know proper communication for an MMO when they first log into an MMO are military or paramilitary personnel, but that doesn't change that I would think they have much better tools to teach this kinda thing with >.>

[ufo]

I learned to understand English from playing video games (not being a native English speaker). No matter what you say - this is the reason. I played a lot of WarCraft I-II and Age of Empires I - II when I was little, every time I encountered something I did not understand, I asked my parents or my brother and sister. Now, I'm doing much better than the rest of my grade in English at school.

Gaming has lots of aspects to defend. One might discuss if the rape of several languages in online speech is because of games, but gaming does have it dark sides too.

I'd like to add that video games cannot be used as an excuse for people being mass murderers.

[Khanderas]

WOW is used for training miltary commanders at west points strangely enough
from
EE
Hmm. I don't quite buy that. They may play other games for training. They may play WoW for fun. But no way they are playing WoW for the combat training.

There are many many examples of games that would be better for this in oh so many ways.

[Xuincherguixe]

Video Games shouldn't need defending, but it's a twisted world out there. The fact there are people attacking something which is mostly harmless says something right there.

Now don't get me wrong. The people who are way too serious and way too competitive at these things really aggravate me. But I don't think the games themselves are giving people that attitude. Though they might pick it up from others after awhile...

Maybe I'm weird... no there's no maybe about it but I don't derive my fun out of humiliating people who haven't actually done anything. Confusing maybe, but I don't go out of my way to hurt peoples feelings.

And I know a number of people like this. A lot whom are playing an excessive amount of computer games too. Jerks are jerks and that's that.


The mass murder argument is just stupid. Anyone who thinks video games make people kill is an idiot. It's infuriating that people actually bring up arguments like that. It makes it harder to deal with legitimate complaints like that it can be a real distraction from other things.

Yeah. You heard it from the guy who plays way too many video games that they something other than perfection.

Games are what caused me to have an interest in computers. I've always wanted to make some of my own. And if I didn't have so much of a problem with procrastination chances are I'd actually have made a few. I doubt I'd have enough notoriety to incur the wrath of people who've never played them, and the number of people who would have played them are likely quite small so their wrath would also be unlikely to be something I could enjoy but hey, a man can dream can't he?


But, it's grown from just a childlike "When I grow up I wanna..." I'd like to use Video Games as a medium for artistic expression. I honestly don't have a lot of nice words for the state of the gaming industry right now. Most of the words I would use are those consisting of four letters. They may be a lot more sophisticated then when I was a wee lad, but they're really lacking. Do we really need yet another game where you just go around shooting the evil Terrorists? How about we get some real murder simulators. (Oh the fun that was Hitman). Or how about a game where you manage a group of protesters. You need to put up with police abuse, people who just come along to start a fight, a government that doesn't want to listen, and people who don't even care. Winning and actually influencing policy will be next to impossible.

That and I might make a few less dark and depressing games. Maybe something involving Squirrel management. Everyone likes Squirrels right?


P.S. It's a very specific kind of schedenfreude. It's easy to piss people off. Therefore it only counts if they're angry about something they really shouldn't be. And it's not even anger really. It's anger born of ignorance. Unadulterated rage is a powerful and very meaningful emotion. When there's a reason behind it. Otherwise it's just hilarious. And really depressing at the same time.

[Daze]

Uh, what? The real world is pretty damn interactive. More interactive than a video game.

Also, do you have a source for those studies?

Of course the real world is interactive, thanks for the insight. (sheesh)
I said "medium"... as in artistic medium. Viewing paintings, watching tv or movies, listening to music is NOT interactive. Video games are. That's where my comparison was. I'm not talking about actually making movies, tv or art... or playing sports, or skateboarding, or throwing eggs at people's houses with friends. Thats a different discussion.

And I'm too lazy to normally post research links (my word is usually good enough anyways, I'm not the type to make crap up). But Harvard and Rochester University have both done studies, I've read about them through the AP (yahoo news links to a lot of stories like that) feel free to look them up.





By who? Where? I've read that it increases your hand eye coordination- for playing more video games. I've also read that they contribute to the widespread fatassery of America.
Hand eye is hand eye in my opinion. You either have it or you dont.... I play a mean set of darts, video games helped perhaps? Maybe.. but that's circumstantial.
I again refer you to the studies by Harvard and Rochester U for confirmation.
As far as fatassery... anytime you eat poorly and dont get enough exercise, you will get fat. Nothing to do with video games... it has to do with parents letting kids spend 12 hours straight in front of a TV or PC every damn day.
(Doubly annoying is those no-life kids ruining the fun of FPS's for me)




By the same token, how do you know people with good hand eye coordination don't play video games, or with good puzzle solving skills, or above average creativity? If you want to say video games don't encourage violent thinking (and by extension, behavior), then you have just set up an argument against the possibility that video games train dexterity and problem solving abilities.

No I didn't set anything up. You're just using circular logic and unfounded correllations. Anyone can make an argument using those kind of debate tactics.
How is the physical activity of video gaming which is affecting the physically measurable characteristics of a gamer (hand-eye, attention span, puzzle solving, etc...) in any way comparable with what is a behavioral (or mental/psychological if you prefer) problem? Violence in children/young people has long been shown to stem for distinct environmental factors: abuse & abandonment particularly. And sometimes from genetic/chemical factors: psychosis, depression, etc...
My point still stands.. would say playing football increases strength? Would you then say it doesnt increase strength because they're are strong people who dont play football? P does not imply Q in this situation.




They sure are fun; but they have few redeeming qualities, other than being fun.

Your opinion and your entitled.
But they clearly have more than a few qualities... and don't write off fun as being non-important. Whats the point of it all without some fun?


I can't see any benefit from gaming, and it even gets me angry at times. It's just a way to pass the time. Sports are a much better way to spend your time in terms of practicality, but gaming is really fun, so I do both.

I agree generally. I'd rather have my kid be a star baseball player than an uber-gamer. But if he hates most sports, then I'd have no problem with it. There's other ways to stay active without sports. Heck, you see where I grew up *points up & left* I walked EVERYWHERE, miles at a time. If more people walked we would not have the weight problem that we do in this country, I garuntee.
And if walking aint your bag... get a bike, rollerblades, ski in the winter... anything!
Also.. fidgeting.... fidgeting burns calories ;)

[Logic]

WOW is used for training miltary commanders at west points strangely enough
from
EESure it is.
I doubt this. WoW is a poor tool for training anything similar to the strategies used in the US military.

Overall, I think that the idea that videogames promote violence is absurd. When the population of a civilization goes up, typically the crime rate goes up. If you were to graph out the increase of population in respect to the increase in crime rate, it would go up at about the same interval, going back as far as crime rates and population has been recorded. I also believe (note: this is an opinion, based on perception) that the crime rates for the last 25 years did not increase as much as other eras throughout recorded history.