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Methabroax
2007-12-27, 07:38 PM
I'm playing in a 7th level game and my wizard character got blown to juicy bits by a 40' tall skeleton. I want to build a melee monster, but the party needs a wilderness type skill character. I was thinking about going the archer/ranger route. I was reading some other threads on this forum and got the impression that a druid could be made into a melee machine. At what level do they start to come into their power? What feats would you use?

Here are the stats I rolled, in no particular order

17
16
16
13
13
8

I will get to add 3 pts to these.

Methabroax

Closet_Skeleton
2007-12-27, 07:47 PM
I was reading some other threads on this forum and got the impression that a druid could be made into a melee machine.

Yes, it is true.


At what level do they start to come into their power?

They're good at level 1, but the main boost is from Wildshape at level 5.


What feats would you use?

Natural Spell. If you're DM is sane then extend spell is neccesary to make your buffs last long in animal form.


Here are the stats I rolled, in no particular order

17
16
16
13
13
8

Wis 17, Int 16, Cha 16, Con 13, Dex 13, Str 8. Only wisdom matters and physical ability scores are irrelevant. The high cha can be useful for wild empathy.

Thinker
2007-12-27, 07:51 PM
Yes, it is true.



They're good at level 1, but the main boost is from Wildshape at level 5.



Natural Spell. If you're DM is sane then extend spell is neccesary to make your buffs last long in animal form.



Wis 17, Int 16, Cha 16, Con 13, Dex 13, Str 8. Only wisdom matters and physical ability scores are irrelevant. The high cha can be useful for wild empathy.

I'd swap the Con and Cha from here since druids retain their normal HP in animal form and they don't really need Cha.

CactusAir
2007-12-27, 07:59 PM
You retain your own HP in wildshpae after they errated it. Druids need con just like everyone else.

If you go ranger instead, I suggest the classic Scout5/Ranger15 (swift hunter) greater manyshot is wunderbar.

Reel On, Love
2007-12-27, 08:16 PM
I'm playing in a 7th level game and my wizard character got blown to juicy bits by a 40' tall skeleton. I want to build a melee monster, but the party needs a wilderness type skill character. I was thinking about going the archer/ranger route. I was reading some other threads on this forum and got the impression that a druid could be made into a melee machine. At what level do they start to come into their power? What feats would you use?

Here are the stats I rolled, in no particular order

17
16
16
13
13
8

I will get to add 3 pts to these.

Methabroax

I'd make either a human or a dwarf. Probably a dwarf. At 7th level, I'd take SF: Conjuration, Augment Summoning, and Natural Spell; as a human I'd add Combat Expertise so I could take Improved Trip later (and would take Expertise/Trip if I didn't want to bother summoning).

You'll want 17 WIS, 16 CON, 16 INT, 13 CHA, 13 DEX, 8 STR. If you can add the 3 points any way you want, dump them all into WIS; if you're capped at 18, raise WIS and CON to 18.
At level 7 you can take a Giant Crocodile animal companion; do so, they're great grapplers.

Greater Magic Fang lasts for hours/level. Use it to make all your natural weapons +1 (next level, you'll need two for yourself to make your bite/claws +2 each), and the same for your companion. Get a Lesser Rod of Extend Spell and prepare a lot of Barkskins.


PROTIP: SNA IV can summon a Unicorn, which has Cure Light Wounds 3/day and Cure Moderate 1/day. It's not getting a Cure Serious all at once, but it's a bunch more healing overall, and the unicorn can fight (and has a Magic Circle Against Evil) and then heal people after.


ETA: for Wild Shape, you don't quite have Large forms yet (next level--brown bear, for example). If you have access to any books, the Fleshraker in the MM3 is absolutely ridiculous--hell, get one for your Animal Companion, too.

Saph
2007-12-27, 08:30 PM
Another option for feats is to get Improved Unarmed Strike and then Improved Grapple. Druids make great grapplers once they hit level 8.

I'm playing a Level 10 druid in a World's Largest Dungeon campaign, and my personal favourite core Wild Shape form is the Dire Lion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/direLion.htm). First round, you charge into combat, pounce, and make one bite attack, two claw attacks, and two rake attacks. If you hit, you grapple and now the monster has trouble doing anything. Next round, you do another bite, two more claws, and two more rakes. In the meantime the rest of the party is cutting the monster to bits while you hang on to it. Two rounds of this will kill just about anything (if it doesn't you're either very unlucky or very outclassed, and it's time to think about running).

Oh, and yes, summon Unicorns. It's never a bad idea to summon Unicorns.

- Saph

Bearonet
2007-12-27, 08:40 PM
Saph, I don't actually think. Improved Grapple is such a good choice for Druids. It delays Augment Summoning, Multiattack, and all those other yummy goodies--your animal companions make better grapplers than you (like the Giant Crocodile Reel On, Love mentioned just before your post) since you can get companions of sizes you can't Wild Shape into yet, and you can often even get to choose your companion's bonus feats (if your DM is nice, their default ones, but definitely the ones they get from the Bonus HD from being a animal companion--try the Natural Bond feat).


BTW, I read that as "summon Unicrons". Because hell, no, that wouldn't be a bad idea, that'd be the best summoning spell ever!

Saph
2007-12-27, 08:55 PM
Saph, I don't actually think. Improved Grapple is such a good choice for Druids. It delays Augment Summoning, Multiattack, and all those other yummy goodies.

If you're a human, you can get Augment Summoning, Improved Grapple, and Natural Spell by level 9, which is about the point you get good at grappling anyway. The Multiattack/Improved Multiattack chain is nice, but not actually likely to make that big a difference - a Dire Lion, for instance, has five attacks on a charge, of which four are at its full BAB. I'm not sure you're going to notice a +3 bonus on the fifth one.

Animal companions do make good grapplers, true, but it never hurts to be able to do it yourself. (In our WLD game access to new animal companions and equipment is highly limited, anyway, so self-sufficiency is the way to go.)

- Saph

Leon
2007-12-27, 09:58 PM
Yes, you can.
you can also choose to make a Melee Monster Druid that doesnt conform to the Cookie Cutter blandness that involves natural spell or summons or companion cheese.

The Shapeshift Variant from PH2 is a good Combat type - you get a basic form at lvl 1 and then you gain more at later levels aswell as feats that can be used with those forms. They give a Enhancement Boost to Str, +Natural AC and other beinfits. (order of Form: Preadator, Flight, Slayer, Plant, Elemental)
The Forms are a swift action to enter and leave, negating the fiddly need to find ways to communicate with the rest of the party.

I'd Suggest - 19 WIS, 16 DEX, 16 CON, 14 STR, 13 INT, 8 CHA


Another good one is the combination of the Avenger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druidVariantDruidicAve nger ) and the Hunter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druid
) Variants

Im playing a similar one to this atm - although it has some homebrew elements and lots of Psionics mixed in.

One that ive yet to try is the Prestige ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigeRanger) with a Druid Base, to provide a more martial aspect along with some spellcasting - much more than a "normal ranger"

Armads
2007-12-27, 10:06 PM
You just need to remember, Druids don't get a feat at level 6, they get a class feature called Natural Spell. They become really good at level 6, when they get the abovementioned class feature.

Leon
2007-12-27, 10:19 PM
You just need to remember, Druids don't get a feat at level 6, they get a class feature called Natural Spell. They become really good at level 6, when they get the abovementioned class feature.

Funny, mine got Superior Unarmed Attack at lvl 6

Methabroax
2007-12-27, 10:57 PM
My Dm is giving us extra feats anyway, we get a feat at every odd level.

With a human, he's what i'm thinking so far based on feedback

Str 13
Dex 13
Con 16
Int 16
Wis 20
Chr 8

1st Improved Unarmed Strike
1st Improved Grapple
3rd Extend Spell
5th Natural Spell
7th ?

The Dm has also said he would rather give me Augmented Summoning for free instead of my having an animal companion at all.....

I havnt gotten to look at a Players Handbook 2 yet, what does the shifter variant look like?

CactusAir
2007-12-27, 11:04 PM
What, no Spell focus: Conjuration and Augment Summoning?

Flankbuddies are good.

Methabroax
2007-12-27, 11:08 PM
Going to get augmented summoning for free, those are the feats I was planning on having to pay for.

Methabroax

Talic
2007-12-28, 01:29 AM
I go with a form that's effective at level 7, gets really good at combat control starting at level 8.

Druid 5/ Master of many forms 2/Nature's Warrior 1.

Feats to look for with a MoMF build:

A lot of people recommend Natural Spell, but when casting progression doesn't boost, I usually find going Natty spell for CL5 is over rated. To each their own, though.

In this build, go Improved grapple definite.

For your natures warrior level, choose Serpent's coils. After that, check out the variety of animals that have improved grab for a tasty +8 grapple bonus to start, before size, strength, and BAB. In addition, every time you win a grapple check vs an opponent (including when they try to escape grapple and fail), they get hurt. On top of that, you get the grapple free when you hurt them anyway. I think Black bear can get around a +18 grapple mod at 6, and at level 8, brown bear can get close to +30. Whack Whack grab and bring the pain. Use grapple checks to deal unarmed damage (claw attack) and get the bonus grapple added in. Great for melee combat control vs strong foes.

I'd go Stat order as follows:

Con > Wis > Int > Cha > Str > Dex

Con gives you bonus HP, which persist in all forms (remember, when polymorphing, you do NOT recalculate HP).

Wis powers the few spells you have, though this build is better sticking to buff spells, maybe the occasional Entangle for swarms of weaklings.

Int is your Skill points.

Cha keys off of a few Druid skills.

Str? Maybe if you go Power attack later, but you do get all benefits of your alternate form's strength, so not so important.

Dex? Non-stat. You'll be in another form most of the time, so you get their dex and all of it's goodness.

Cuddly
2007-12-28, 01:34 AM
Druids need splatbooks to shine, just like any other character.

More monster manuals = new and better monsters. Get things with pounce. Fleshraker is ideal.

You may also want to look into getting feats that let you turn into things other than an animal. Also, there's a spell in the spell compendium that lets you use the forms special attacks or something.


Good luck

Methabroax
2007-12-28, 01:36 AM
Sounds pretty gross for squeezing the pudding out of bad guys. What would you do to advance after that? Back to druid I assume for more spells or stick with MoMF for extra variety and exceptional abilities later on?

Mad Wizard
2007-12-28, 02:04 AM
Somewhat off-topic: What is a fleshraker? Can someone give me a general idea of what it is and what book it's from?

MammonAzrael
2007-12-28, 02:12 AM
Somewhat off-topic: What is a fleshraker? Can someone give me a general idea of what it is and what book it's from?

Fleshraker is a dinosaur from MMIII. It's one of, if not the, best creature available for wildshape at level 5, and animal companion at level 4.

It is a 4-HD Medium Animal, with 20 AC, great physical stats, Leaping Pounce(which allows you to make a full attack after a charge, plus two rake attacks, and I think a free trip attempt), Dex poison(on either the claws or rake, can't remember), and good damage. The thing is brutal.

If your DM allows dinosaurs, take this as your animal companion at 4, wild shape it at 5, and you're set for quite a while.

Talic
2007-12-28, 02:26 AM
Sounds pretty gross for squeezing the pudding out of bad guys. What would you do to advance after that? Back to druid I assume for more spells or stick with MoMF for extra variety and exceptional abilities later on?

I'd MoMF to get up to the ability to get the good larger dire forms, at a minimum. Afterwards, shift back to druid to get better buffs.

Some of the large cats with improved grab are scary with this build. You'll generally be able to out-grapple a dragon of your CR, with the right buffs and a steady increase in MoMF.

The real weakness to this build comes when you deal with incorporeal critters... But against most everything else, you maul things. a Druid 5/NatWar 1/MoMF 10 Gets something like 12 wild shapes a day for 6 hours each, which gives you flexibility to shift as needed, and you can always fall back on traditional MoMF critters.

Reel On, Love
2007-12-28, 02:35 AM
The Dm has also said he would rather give me Augmented Summoning for free instead of my having an animal companion at all.....
It's a trap. Your animal companion is a powerful combatant at all levels, especially with things like Animal Growth coming into play. Two feats for it? You're gettin' gypped. Keep the companion, take the feats.


I havnt gotten to look at a Players Handbook 2 yet, what does the shifter variant look like?
It's reasonably well-balanced... which makes it a nerf. Straight Druid is a lot better.

The Druid's spellcasting is also better than MoMF's benefits. Check out Bite of the Werebear, for example.

Talic
2007-12-28, 02:42 AM
It's a trap. Your animal companion is a powerful combatant at all levels, especially with things like Animal Growth coming into play. Two feats for it? You're gettin' gypped. Keep the companion, take the feats.


It's reasonably well-balanced... which makes it a nerf. Straight Druid is a lot better.

The Druid's spellcasting is also better than MoMF's benefits. Check out Bite of the Werebear, for example.

Based on the OP, I'm under the impression that he wants to mix it up, and go casting lite.

That said, nothing stops you from going Nat War, and then back to druid and waiting the few extra levels to get the larger forms. Best of both worlds, though you come into real squishy power a bit later, but don't tend to plateau. Again, to each their own.

marjan
2007-12-28, 09:30 AM
Funny, mine got Superior Unarmed Attack at lvl 6

Was that some substitution level? :smalltongue:

Methabroax
2007-12-28, 10:51 AM
We havn't seen a dinosaur yet, so fleshraker aught to be out. Brown bear looks like a good substitute tho, huge grapple bonus and improved grab built in.
I'm going to go with Druid 6/Nat warrior 1 with serpents coils, then back into Druid for extra spell buffs.

Thanks for the help

Methabroax

Ungvar
2007-12-28, 07:19 PM
I'd MoMF to get up to the ability to get the good larger dire forms, at a minimum. Afterwards, shift back to druid to get better buffs.

Some of the large cats with improved grab are scary with this build. You'll generally be able to out-grapple a dragon of your CR, with the right buffs and a steady increase in MoMF.

The real weakness to this build comes when you deal with incorporeal critters... But against most everything else, you maul things. a Druid 5/NatWar 1/MoMF 10 Gets something like 12 wild shapes a day for 6 hours each, which gives you flexibility to shift as needed, and you can always fall back on traditional MoMF critters.

MoMF levels stack w/ Druid levels for both HD and duration. So that 16th level character you posed would have 12 wild shapes a day for 12 hours each.

Ungvar
2007-12-28, 07:29 PM
We havn't seen a dinosaur yet, so fleshraker aught to be out. Brown bear looks like a good substitute tho, huge grapple bonus and improved grab built in.
I'm going to go with Druid 6/Nat warrior 1 with serpents coils, then back into Druid for extra spell buffs.

Thanks for the help

Methabroax

If you're going to make liberal use of the "Bite of the X" series of spells down the line, you probably want to make sure your DM will allow the bonuses to stack with the wild shape of the same animal.

For example, if you wild shape into a Dire Bear, will the DM allow you the stat bonuses to Str etc from the Bite of the Werebear spell? There's nothing in RAW which would prevent it, but some DMs might rule that it's essentially a stacking magical effect.