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Fruan
2007-12-29, 02:13 AM
So, I have a player that's interested in going for Spring Attack. The only problem is that Dodge is such a horrible feat - not just in terms of power, but mainly in terms of bookkeeping.

I'm certain I recall hearing about another feat that doesn't have the headache which can count as dodge for the purposes of Mobility's prereqs, but I can't find it anywhere - Did I dream this feat, or is it somewhere obscure?

Nerd-o-rama
2007-12-29, 02:14 AM
My vote is say screw it and let Dodge give +1 Dodge AC against everyone. But that's just me.

The only official feat prereq substitution I know off the top of my head is Improved Toughness for Toughness. And Sudden Strike can count as Sneak Attack for meeting prereqs, but that's a class feature.

JackMage666
2007-12-29, 02:17 AM
Expeditious Dodge, from Races of the Wild, I think can.

As well, theres a feat in Tome of Battle that can, though I don't remember itto well. It was a Desert Wind-related feat.

Fuzzy_Juan
2007-12-29, 02:18 AM
wait for 4th ed...if SW Saga is any indicator, 'Running Attack' is th enew spring attack and it has NO prereqs at all. Just a dex minimum.

Nowhere Girl
2007-12-29, 03:28 AM
Desert Wind Dodge from page 29 of the Tome of Batte is what you're looking for.

Tokiko Mima
2007-12-29, 03:36 AM
Expeditious Dodge, from Races of the Wild, I think can.

As well, theres a feat in Tome of Battle that can, though I don't remember itto well. It was a Desert Wind-related feat.

You mean Desert Wind Dodge. Desert Wind Dodge takes the place of Dodge as a prerequisite and adds +1 dodge AC (versus everyone) and +1 fire damage to melee attacks on any round where the character moves 10 feet or more. I think it's the best published option.

There's also Midnight Dodge from Magic of Incarnum. But it's basically just like regular Dodge, but you have to invest essentia in it and it gives +essentia AC versus a single foe. Not really much of a solution, since it's even more work to track!

Aquaseafoam
2007-12-29, 05:02 AM
My vote is say screw it and let Dodge give +1 Dodge AC against everyone. But that's just me.

Thats what ive done. The feat still sucks, it just has less of a sting to it.

Kurald Galain
2007-12-29, 05:16 AM
Here's a thought: if you're going to houserule anyway, simply allow the player to take Spring Attack without having Dodge. It's not like that's going to be overpowered or anything :smallsmile:

Altair_the_Vexed
2007-12-29, 06:43 AM
How about this for a House Rule for you?


The dodge bonus scales with level. At 5th level, 10th level, 15th level and 20th level, the character gains another point of dodge bonus, which may be assigned to the same opponent, or split between opponents. Thus a 15th level character with the Dodge feat may assign a plus 4 bonus to AC against one opponent, or a plus 2 bonus against two opponents, or a plus 1 bonus against four opponents.

That make Dodge worth having at higher levels, reduces suckitude, and keeps it fairly balanced.

Kurald Galain
2007-12-29, 06:59 AM
How about this for a House Rule for you?
It makes it worse - the main problem with dodge is the bookkeeping.

Zenos
2007-12-29, 07:15 AM
It makes it worse - the main problem with dodge is the bookkeeping.

Just make it a constant modifier that scales with levels then.

kemmotar
2007-12-29, 08:56 AM
Actually, there is also one good point about dodge...it's the only prereq for defensive throw...Also at lower levels +1 AC is a good boost and at higher levels it won't hurt...All you need to do is figure out if the feat you want to take is worth taking dodge as a prereq...imo spring attack isn't all that useful but in the case of defensive throw i think it's more than worth it...

Zenos
2007-12-29, 09:04 AM
Actually, there is also one good point about dodge...it's the only prereq for defensive throw...Also at lower levels +1 AC is a good boost and at higher levels it won't hurt...All you need to do is figure out if the feat you want to take is worth taking dodge as a prereq...imo spring attack isn't all that useful but in the case of defensive throw i think it's more than worth it...

Remember he also doesn't want to do so much bookkeeping.

UserClone
2007-12-29, 09:11 AM
Actually, there is a feat called Dextrous Dodge from Ultimate Feats (Mongoose. Yeah, I know.) which specifically counts as dodge for the purpose of prereqs. Its function is to increase your Dex by 2 for the purposes of AC only. (Note: Effectively, this is a +1 dodge bonus, as they share the limitation of not functioning when you are caught flatfooted or are otherwise denied your Dex to AC.) I see nothing unbalancing about swapping it out for dodge.

Kurald Galain
2007-12-29, 09:40 AM
Actually, there is also one good point about dodge...it's the only prereq for defensive throw...Also at lower levels +1 AC is a good boost and at higher levels it won't hurt...

Being a prerequisite doesn't make it good; it merely means you sometimes need crappy things in order to take good things. Besides, defensive throw already has several other prereqs, so it doesn't need that particular prereq to be balanced.

A +1 bonus to armor class (or indeed, to just about anything) is never a good boost. It is a mediocre boost at low levels, and an irrelevant boost at high levels. This is why, for instance, Power Attack is a much better feat than Weapon Focus.

Heck, WOTC is even aware that Dodge and that +3 HP feat are extremely bottom-tier, hence they have made several attempts at obsoleting them by feats that actually do something useful.

Curmudgeon
2007-12-29, 10:48 AM
The only official feat prereq substitution I know off the top of my head is Improved Toughness for Toughness. Since when is that "official"? Here's what an official substitution looks like:
Expeditious Dodge [General]

You're good at avoiding attacks while moving quickly.

Prerequisite: Dex 13.
Benefit: When you move 40 feet or more in a single turn, you gain a +2 dodge bonus to your Armor Class until the beginning of your next turn.
Special: Expeditious Dodge can be used in place of the Dodge feat to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other special ability. A fighter may select Expeditious Dodge as one of his fighter bonus feats.

kemmotar
2007-12-29, 11:34 AM
Being a prerequisite doesn't make it good; it merely means you sometimes need crappy things in order to take good things. Besides, defensive throw already has several other prereqs, so it doesn't need that particular prereq to be balanced.

A +1 bonus to armor class (or indeed, to just about anything) is never a good boost. It is a mediocre boost at low levels, and an irrelevant boost at high levels. This is why, for instance, Power Attack is a much better feat than Weapon Focus.

That's why i said that it becomes a "good" feat if it's a prereq for a feat that is worth it even if it isn't, per se, a good feat...for example in the case of defensive throw, dodge in itself is a really crappy feat, but because defensive throw is actually very good it's more than worth one crappy feat. It's no use saying that defensive throw doesn't need dodge to be a balanced feat because it has dodge as a prereq and it is a balanced feat...wotc isn't gonna change it. If your DM houserules you don't need dodge that's fine.

Also a +1 AC may not seem much but there are times you wish you had that extra 1 AC that makes the difference between death and life in many cases, or that extra +1 AR. No feat, no matter how crappy it is, isn't useless. Plus, if it's a prereq for a great feat, then it makes taking the one crappy feat more than worth it outweighing the uselessness of one feat the usefulness of the other.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-12-29, 12:08 PM
Since when is that "official"? Here's what an official substitution looks like:
After checking my Complete Warrior, I seem to be full of crap. But Desert Wind Dodge is what the OP was looking for.

Curmudgeon
2007-12-29, 12:21 PM
I'm certain I recall hearing about another feat that doesn't have the headache which can count as dodge for the purposes of Mobility's prereqs, but I can't find it anywhere If you're trying to find a better way to meet the Spring Attack prerequisites, you should also consider the Mobility armor special ability. You're basically buying the feat at a +1 armor enhancement cost. The main limitation is that it won't work on medium or heavier armor. But it would work as an add-on to Bracers of Armor, if you can afford it.

Kurald Galain
2007-12-29, 12:29 PM
So, I have a player that's interested in going for Spring Attack.

One solution is to give the player a means of flying, then give him Flyby Attack. It works essentially the same but doesn't have the silly prereqs. Depends on what level this is at, of course.

JMobius
2007-12-29, 12:32 PM
If you're trying to find a better way to meet the Spring Attack prerequisites, you should also consider the Mobility armor special ability. You're basically buying the feat at a +1 armor enhancement cost. The main limitation is that it won't work on medium or heavier armor. But it would work as an add-on to Bracers of Armor, if you can afford it.

Errr, do feats provided by items really count as meeting prereqs?

Curmudgeon
2007-12-29, 12:42 PM
Yes, feats provided by items meet the prerequisites; and you stop meeting the prerequisites when you lose the item. It's confirmed in the FAQ.

Leicontis
2007-12-29, 01:05 PM
IMO, Dodge isn't the weak prereq for Spring Attack - Mobility is. It's made partially obsolete by the Tumble skill, and partially obsolete by the very feat it's requried for. Granted, +4 AC is nothing to sneeze at, but what how often are you going to, when spring attacking, run past another opponent without successfully tumbling? To be honest, I think you'd be better off taking Acrobatic or Skill Focus: Tumble than Mobility.

Dodge, especially with the (apparently popular) houserule of providing a continuous +1 dodge bonus (which puts it on par with Improved Natural Armor), is quite useful at low levels, and even at high levels is still giving the same useful bonus - it decreases most enemies' chance to hit you (and confirm crits) by 5%. That's approximately a 5% reduction in overall physical damage taken - not too bad for a feat.

But, as stated above, you're better off gaining flight somehow and taking Flyby Attack, especially since it allows ANY STANDARD ACTION during the move.

Severedevil
2007-12-29, 02:40 PM
That's approximately a 5% reduction in overall physical damage taken - not too bad for a feat. Actually, it means that 5% of the time an attack that would've hit you misses. That's more than a 5% reduction in damage, and dodge bonuses count against touch attack, so it's not only physical damage.

Mobility is valuable if you fix tumble in some way. Of course, most fighting classes can't tumble very well anyway. But what if we combine Dodge and Mobility:

Dodge [General]

Prerequisite: Dex 13.
Benefit: You receive a +1 dodge bonus to armor class. This bonus increases to +5 against attacks of opportunity caused when you move out of or within a threatened area.

Wordmiser
2007-12-29, 04:14 PM
IMO, Dodge isn't the weak prereq for Spring Attack - Mobility is. It's made partially obsolete by the Tumble skill, and partially obsolete by the very feat it's requried for. Granted, +4 AC is nothing to sneeze at, but what how often are you going to, when spring attacking, run past another opponent without successfully tumbling? To be honest, I think you'd be better off taking Acrobatic or Skill Focus: Tumble than Mobility.

Tumbling cuts your speed in half, which really makes Spring Attack fairly pointless. Mobility is pretty okay as far as I can see.

If he's getting his base speed to 40+ft, Expeditious Dodge (as has been mentioned but not emphasized) gives a flat +2 to AC as long as he moves 40ft in a round. It seems to be the one to go for.

---
But I'm a fan of boosting the flat bonus feats to scale by level. Most I would give +1/four levels (Though some feats like Toughness and the Animal Affinity/Self Sufficient types are exceptions. For those two skill types, I'd boost the bonuses to +1/level and +1/six levels, respectively)

Hurlbut
2007-12-29, 04:31 PM
Tumbling cuts your speed in half, which really makes Spring Attack fairly pointless. Mobility is pretty okay as far as I can see.

If he's getting his base speed to 40+ft, Expeditious Dodge (as has been mentioned but not emphasized) gives a flat +2 to AC as long as he moves 40ft in a round. It seems to be the one to go for.
Sound like something a scout would do.

Yami
2007-12-29, 06:20 PM
Something that a pouncing spring attack scout would do! ^_~

CactusAir
2007-12-30, 07:56 AM
I just houseruled dodge and mobility into a single feat.

Curmudgeon
2007-12-30, 03:10 PM
Tumbling cuts your speed in half, which really makes Spring Attack fairly pointless. It doesn't have to cut your speed. Accelerated Tumbling just means you bump the DCs up by 10. If you're a Rogue who's going for Shadowdancer (same prerequisites as Spring Attack, which is the only way a Rogue can justify this feat tree), then using Tumble at full speed with Spring Attack is pure sweetness: see the Acrobatic Backstab skill trick in Complete Scoundrel for why.

Stephen_E
2007-12-30, 05:09 PM
Dodge isn't to bad. If you're getting Elusive target you need it to make 2 of the 3 abilities gained work.

But it's true that all feats aren't equal, and Dodge is one of the weaker ones that is mostly taken for prereq purposes. It's still more useful than Greater TWFing. :smallwink:

Stephen

Indon
2007-12-30, 05:11 PM
Something that a pouncing spring attack scout would do! ^_~

I don't think you can combine Spring Attack and a charge into the same round?

Kurald Galain
2007-12-30, 05:31 PM
I don't think you can combine Spring Attack and a charge into the same round?

Technically not. Spring attack requires an attack action, and charging is a full round action.

Lolzords
2007-12-30, 06:05 PM
My vote is say screw it and let Dodge give +1 Dodge AC against everyone. But that's just me.

Same, every game I've played in Dodge has just been treated at +1 AC for everyone. It makes sense, the feat says you're watching one person and get +1 AC against them, but doesn't that mean you take -1 AC for everyone else because you're not paying attention?

It's easier +1 for everyone.

Stephen_E
2007-12-30, 08:14 PM
One solution is to give the player a means of flying, then give him Flyby Attack. It works essentially the same but doesn't have the silly prereqs. Depends on what level this is at, of course.

Flyby Attack doesn't avoid the AOO from your target.

Stephen


Improved Flyby Attack [General]
Prerequisite
Fly speed, Dodge, Flyby Attack, Mobility.

Benefit
If the standard action taken by a creature during a round in which it uses Flyby Attack is a melee attack, the creature provokes no attacks of opportunity from moving out of squares threatened by its target.

Normal
Without this feat, a creature making an attack as part of a Flyby Attack maneuver provokes attacks of opportunity as normal from moving out of squares threatened by its target.

Kurald Galain
2007-12-30, 08:39 PM
Flyby Attack doesn't avoid the AOO from your target.

Yes, I am aware of that, and your point is?

Irreverent Fool
2007-12-30, 08:50 PM
Yes, I am aware of that, and your point is?

That it isn't better.

Stephen_E
2007-12-31, 02:09 AM
Yes, I am aware of that, and your point is?

As Irreverant Fool said.

Saving 2 feats, Dodge and Mobility, to get a Spring Attack that sucks an AOO from your target everytime you use it doesn't seem much of a solution.:smallwink:

Stephen

Kaelik
2007-12-31, 02:11 AM
As Irreverant Fool said.

Saving 2 feats, Dodge and Mobility, to get a Spring Attack that sucks an AOO from your target everytime you use it doesn't seem much of a solution.:smallwink:

Stephen

That's where the Tumble skill comes in.

tyckspoon
2007-12-31, 02:18 AM
As Irreverant Fool said.

Saving 2 feats, Dodge and Mobility, to get a Spring Attack that sucks an AOO from your target everytime you use it doesn't seem much of a solution.:smallwink:

Stephen

Only if avoiding AoO was your primary motivation for going after Spring Attack. If what you really wanted was the extra tactical option of moving, attacking, and still being able to move after the attack, Flyby and the otherwise poor feats you save are an excellent deal. There are lots of ways to deal with attacks of opportunity; breaking your move action to make an attack and then resuming your move is not so common.

Stephen_E
2007-12-31, 04:48 AM
That's where the Tumble skill comes in.

Can you tumble while flying?

While the skill doesn't specfically ban it, the wording of the skill strongly suggests you need a surface to tumble on.

I see the other point raised. If you are just looking for the ability to move/standard attack/move as a full action, and don't care if you suck a AOO, Flyby Attack would do the trick. Provided they're not a Tripper or Stand Still been attacked, and if the flight is by magical/non-winged means you can even ignore the Tripper.

(I can't help smile thinking about the reaction of a player using Flyby Attack been told that the AOO they'd just been hit by was a Stand Still attack. :smallbiggrin: )

Stephen

Kurald Galain
2007-12-31, 04:50 AM
Saving 2 feats, Dodge and Mobility, to get a Spring Attack that sucks an AOO from your target everytime you use it doesn't seem much of a solution.:smallwink:

Well, then, get reach. Or blur. Or invisibility. Or tumble Or some other way of avoiding AOOs.

I never said it was better, I said it was a solution. It depends on where your priorities lie, and some characters can be quite feat-starved.

Craig1f
2007-12-31, 10:36 AM
Mobility is valuable if you fix tumble in some way. Of course, most fighting classes can't tumble very well anyway. But what if we combine Dodge and Mobility:

Tumbling should have some kind of opposed roll, like Tumble vs BaB. If the attacker wins, then he rolls an actual attack.

Kaelik
2007-12-31, 12:40 PM
Can you tumble while flying?

Yes you can.

Stephen_E
2007-12-31, 03:40 PM
Yes you can.

Do you have a source/cite for that? (tumblimg while flying)

Thanks
Stephen

Kaelik
2007-12-31, 03:48 PM
Do you have a source/cite for that? (tumblimg while flying)

Thanks
Stephen

The tumble skill which never specifies anything about the ground. Tumbling is an essential part of airborne combat. Combative hawks or other birds don't fight in straight lines any more then ground creatures.

Stephen_E
2007-12-31, 05:22 PM
The tumble skill which never specifies anything about the ground. Tumbling is an essential part of airborne combat. Combative hawks or other birds don't fight in straight lines any more then ground creatures.

So that would be no, you don't have a cite but are just talking about your assumptions of how tumbling works, and what DnD thinks of as "tumbling".

DnD is a ground focused system, with flying getting small coverage. The lack of specifications with Tumble, re: Flying, means diddly squat about whether it is or isn't allowed. To me the way they talk about Tumble working and been used suggest that it probably isn't intended to be used flying. The way you see airbournel combat by birds as relating to how you see Tumblimg in DnD says it is allowed. Neither is a definitive "this is the way the rules work".

Stephen

Icewalker
2007-12-31, 05:32 PM
I do the same thing as some people have said: +1 dodge bonus to AC all around, instead of a specified target. Makes it less complex, and less suck.

Kaelik
2007-12-31, 06:45 PM
So that would be no, you don't have a cite but are just talking about your assumptions of how tumbling works, and what DnD thinks of as "tumbling".

DnD is a ground focused system, with flying getting small coverage. The lack of specifications with Tumble, re: Flying, means diddly squat about whether it is or isn't allowed. To me the way they talk about Tumble working and been used suggest that it probably isn't intended to be used flying. The way you see airbournel combat by birds as relating to how you see Tumblimg in DnD says it is allowed. Neither is a definitive "this is the way the rules work".

So you advocate ignoring the actual rules to make up your own ideas, that have noting to do with the rules of D&D, and then pretending that is RAW?

Tumble allows you to move at half speed (or full speed with accelerated tumble) and make a tumble check to avoid AoO. AoO never state that you get them against flying enemies either, but you do, because if the rules don't say ground only, then it's not ground only.

Stephen_E
2008-01-01, 06:14 AM
The rules also don't specifically say you can't fight when dead, so are you saying that if someone says you can'r fight when dead they're ignoring RAW?

The rules don't say you can't jump while flying. Do you consider anyone saying you can't do so to be ignoring RAW.

The terms and descriptions used with the tumble skill make it pretty clear that they were thinking of using tumble while on the ground, or when falling, not when flying. This doesn't mean they they didn't intend you to use it while flying but more that they didn't think about it particuly. That leave players/DMs in the posistion of making a decision on the question.

As for AOOs and flight, yes the rules do specifically say flying creatures can attract AOOs. See the feat Improved Flyby Attack.

Note: I'm not saying you can't use tumble when flying. I'm saying it isn't clear. "The rules don't say you can't so you can" isn't a particuly useful approach in DnD.

Stephen

Stephen_E
2008-01-01, 02:31 PM
So you advocate ignoring the actual rules to make up your own ideas, that have noting to do with the rules of D&D, and then pretending that is RAW?


If the rules stated that you can Tumble when flying, or gaves mods to Tumble for different classes of flying ability and/or weather conditions I'd consider tumblimg while flying RAW. It does none of these things.

Therefore tumbling while flying isn't RAW.

Stephen

marjan
2008-01-01, 03:03 PM
Tumble at one-half speed as part of normal movement, provoking no attacks of opportunity while doing so. Failure means you provoke attacks of opportunity normally. Check separately for each opponent you move past, in the order in which you pass them (player’s choice of order in case of a tie). Each additional enemy after the first adds +2 to the Tumble DC.

I don't know weather normal movement is defined somewhere or not. But if you consider flying normal movement then you can tumble while flying otherwise you cannot. Does anyone know where in D&D you can find the definition of normal movement.

MandibleBones
2008-01-01, 03:27 PM
Does anyone know where in D&D you can find the definition of normal movement.

Not necesarily "normal movement" but definitely "movement." I am assuming that we can say that normal movement is the same as simple movement?


Move: The simplest move action is moving your speed.

If simple movement is moving your speed, and your character has a fly speed, and you can tumble during normal movement... why are we having this argument?