Early entrance to Mystic Theurge

[Cuddly]

What's the earliest you can get into MT? wizard1/cleric1/spellthief1?

[A.Sondergaard]

Typically Wizard3/Cleric3 is the fastest...I'm not sure why you'd think Spellthief would help...

[Cuddly]

Typically Wizard3/Cleric3 is the fastest...I'm not sure why you'd think Spellthief would help...

Wizard1/Cleric3 is faster.

Spellthief steals a level 2 arcane and level 2 divine spell. He now qualifies for the prc.

[Emperor Demonking]

Why do you need the firts two levels?

How do you get in it with 1 level in wizard?

[Kurald Galain]

How do you get in it with 1 level in wizard?

Practiced Spellcaster Precocious Apprentice.

You will have to convince your DM that this trick is in fact legal; opinions are divided on the subject. It does alleviate the problem with MT being a rather weak class.

Note that the spellthief trick really does not work, since you must be a level-4 spellthief to steal level-2 spells.

[Dark Tira]

Practiced Spellcaster.

You will have to convince your DM that this trick is in fact legal; opinions are divided on the subject. It does alleviate the problem with MT being a rather weak class.

Note that the spellthief trick really does not work, since you must be a level-4 spellthief to steal level-2 spells.

Practiced Spellcaster doesn't work. The typical way is either Precocious Apprentice or Illumian with the Improved Sigil: Krau feat.

[Kurald Galain]

Practiced Spellcaster doesn't work. The typical way is either Precocious Apprentice or Illumian with the Improved Sigil: Krau feat.

Oops, I meant Precocious Apprentice, yes. Those two feats do have rather synonymous names, do they not?

I would argue that Improved Krau doesn't work, as a Krau'ed first-level spell is still a first-level spell in a first-level spell slot.

[UserClone]

Agreed. Krau is Practiced Spellcaster, but only for 1-2 CLs instead of four.

[Curmudgeon]

Precocious Apprentice doesn't work for early entry into Mystic Theurge.
When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the previous benefit described above. It doesn't specify arcane spells, so being able to cast 2nd level divine spells nullifies Precocious Apprentice.

The feats that let you treat a spell as Heightened 1 level work. It's still in a 1st level slot, but that's not what matters.
Heighten Spell [Metamagic]

Benefit: A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. The effective level of the spell becomes 2nd, which is enough to meet the arcane part of the Mystic Theurge requirements.

Seems like a waste of resources to me, but it should quality your character for MT entrance with just one arcane spellcaster level.

[bugsysservant]

The feats that let you treat a spell as Heightened 1 level work. It's still in a 1st level slot, but that's not what matters. The effective level of the spell becomes 2nd, which is enough to meet the arcane part of the Mystic Theurge requirements.

Seems like a waste of resources to me, but it should quality your character for MT entrance with just one arcane spellcaster level.

Yeah, but you need to be able to cast a second level spell to heighten a spell to second level (unless I have grossly misread the text). Heighten spell has no effect of entry into Mystic Theurge.

And, arguably, precocious apprentice does work. The text doesn't say that the spell slot must be from the same casting progression from which you gained the ability to cast second level spells. So, a wizard 1/cleric 3 would have a single second level (arcane) spell slot. This would further lift the restriction that the slot must be for a single spell, or that you need a caster level check.

[Fax Celestis]

Spellthief steals a level 2 arcane and level 2 divine spell. He now qualifies for the prc.

Spellthieves cannot qualify for feats, prestige classes, &c. with their thievery abilities.


Customer (Fax Celestis): 06/26/2007 09:33 AM
Can a Spellthief use his Steal Spell ability to qualify for prestige classes that require the ability to cast spells of X level? Can he use his Steal Spell ability to qualify for prestige classes that require the ability to cast a specific spell? Can he use his Steal Spell-Like Ability ability to qualify for prestige classes that require a specific spell-like ability (such as any prestige class that requires Eldritch Blast)?

Response (Support Agent): 06/26/2007 03:08 PM

Thank you for writing. The Steal Spell ability does not qualify the Spellthief for prestige classes that require spellcasting ability, regardless of the spell stolen.

Please let me know if you need anymore help!

Good Gaming!

[lord_khaine]

i have heard of a lot of cases where customer support were plain wrong, and at least on wizards forum their oppinion isnt considderet worth listening to.

as for the Precocious Apprentice feat, the requirement for mystic theurge is
"2nd-level arcane spells" so a singel level 2 arcane spell wont be enough to qualify.

[SurlySeraph]

i have heard of a lot of cases where customer support were plain wrong, and at least on wizards forum their oppinion isnt considderet worth listening to.

Maybe, but that's the closest thing to an authoritative answer we have at this point.


as for the Precocious Apprentice feat, the requirement for mystic theurge is
"2nd-level arcane spells" so a singel level 2 arcane spell wont be enough to qualify.

No, you don't have to have more than one spell slot per day to qualify for a PrC where it requires spells of a certain level. You just need to be able to cast that spell more than once EVER. Needing to rest between them doesn't mean you can't cast more than one second-level spell.

[Fax Celestis]

Maybe, but that's the closest thing to an authoritative answer we have at this point.
Also, most of the contention in those instances is that CustServ gives different answers when asked the same question multiple times. I've asked this question on four separate occasions (in the vain home that they would answer the way I wanted them to) and had essentially the same answer every time.

[Wordmiser]

Yeah, but you need to be able to cast a second level spell to heighten a spell to second level (unless I have grossly misread the text). Heighten spell has no effect of entry into Mystic Theurge.I believe he's referring to the Improved Sigil (Krau) feat, which heightens two spells of your choice without altering their spell slots.

This means a first level Illumian spellcaster can cast second level spells.

[Solo]

as for the Precocious Apprentice feat, the requirement for mystic theurge is
"2nd-level arcane spells" so a singel level 2 arcane spell wont be enough to qualify.

Hypothetically, if you have a 3rd level wizard who could only cast one 2nd level arcane spell, would he fail to qualify for MT?

Let's say a int 12 or 13 wizard: just enough to cast 2nd level spells, but not enough to gain any bonus spells. He then takes 3 levels in Cleric before trying to get into MT but alas! He can only cast one level 2 arcane spell per day!

What do you say, milord? Does he get in or no?

[Fax Celestis]

Oh, and are you asking for "earliest entrance", or "least suckage"? Because the latter would be Wizard 5/Ur-Priest 2 or similar.

[Aquillion]

Hypothetically, if you have a 3rd level wizard who could only cast one 2nd level arcane spell, would he fail to qualify for MT?

Let's say a int 12 or 13 wizard: just enough to cast 2nd level spells, but not enough to gain any bonus spells. He then takes 3 levels in Cleric before trying to get into MT but alas! He can only cast one level 2 arcane spell per day!

What do you say, milord? Does he get in or no?He can still cast multiple spells, he can just only cast one of them per day. He qualifies.

[Reinboom]

Human - Heighten Spell
Wizard (Abjuration Specialist) - Metamagic School Focus (Abjuration)
Cleric

Now, prepare Resistance as a level 2 spell in both Wizard and Cleric sides.

- edit:
Unfortunately, you still need 1 more level for skill ranks. Probably Wizard.

[Kaelik]

To me the question isn't fastest entry, but instead best.

Though, Human could do something like this:

Archivist 1/Wizard 1/One of them

Feats:
lvl 1:Earth Sense
Human:Heighten Spell
lvl 3:Earth Spell

This means that at level 3 you can enter Mystic Theurge. Of course what do you do when you finish it?

Though you could go:

Druid 1/Wizard 1/Druid 2/Mystic Theurge 4/Arcane Hierophant 10/Mystic Theurge 2. For lvl 19 Druid casting, level 17 Wizard casting, level 13 Wildshaping, and level 11 Familiar/13 Companion.

My favorite though is:

Wizard 5/Mindbender 1/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8/Archmage 4.

Read the High Arcanas carefully. They all can be used equally well with Divine Spells. Not to mention awesome CLs and 9th level spells in two classes.

[Kaelik]

Oh, and are you asking for "earliest entrance", or "least suckage"? Because the latter would be Wizard 5/Ur-Priest 2 or similar.

Mindbender, you need a +3 Fort to enter. So Wizard 5 can't do it.

[Arbitrarity]

I recommend strongly a build like Wizard 1/Druid 3/MT 4/Arcane Heirophant 10/MT 2. Very strong druid casting, and it gets 9'th level spells of both sorts. Note: It's an Illumian using the Improved Sigil (Krau) to qualify for MT.

Arcane Heirophant, because it's just that useful, and it's nice to stack double caster progression for lategame power.

[Kaelik]

I recommend strongly a build like Wizard 1/Druid 3/MT 4/Arcane Heirophant 10/MT 2. Very strong druid casting, and it gets 9'th level spells of both sorts. Note: It's an Illumian using the Improved Sigil (Krau) to qualify for MT.

Arcane Heirophant, because it's just that useful, and it's nice to stack double caster progression for lategame power.

Well you can be any race you want (Like an Anthropomorphic Bat) at the cots of taking some nice feats that are useful anyways. (Earth Spell line.)

[Arbitrarity]

True. Anthropomorphic bat is really, really good, and you do have the feats.

[Kurald Galain]

Precocious Apprentice doesn't work for early entry into Mystic Theurge.
Like I said, "You will have to convince your DM that this trick is in fact legal; opinions are divided on the subject." It is quite a common suggestion on the WOTC boards.



The feats that let you treat a spell as Heightened 1 level work.
I'm not sure what feats you had in mind, but Heighten Spell itself obviously doesn't, and by its strict wording neither does Improved Krau, because that only changes "effective level" and "effects dependent on spell level". Prestige class entry is not an effect, and you still haven't the ability to cast 2nd level spells, just the ability to cast first level spells with greater effect.

But, as with the Precocious trick, you can try and convince your DM.

[Cuddly]

Spellthieves cannot qualify for feats, prestige classes, &c. with their thievery abilities.

Nooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!

[marjan]

He can still cast multiple spells, he can just only cast one of them per day. He qualifies.

So sorcerer lvl 4 won't qualify because they only have one spell of second lvl? That doesn't make any sense.

[Fax Celestis]

Nooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!
Oh, come on. They'd be the most ZOMGBROKAN class ever if they could. Simply by merit of leveling, they'd gain access to every PrC that existed that required the ability to cast arcane spells, cast divine spells, cast shadow mysteries, utter truenames, manifest psionic powers, invoke invocations, have a specific SLA, and more.

You'd end up with class combinations that looked like Spellthief/Arcane Trickster/Archmage, or Spellthief/Ultimate Magus/Mystic Theurge, or Spellthief/Eldritch Theurge/Cerebremancer, or Spellthief/Iot7FV/Abjurant Champion/Jade Phoenix Mage. It'd be inanity. I'm personally glad they ruled the way they did, otherwise my most favoritest class ever would be the most broken thing in the game.

[marjan]

Nooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!

Easy now. Breath slowly and the feeling will pass. :smalltongue:

[FlyMolo]

Entry into MT is 2nd level arcane and 2nd level divine, yes?

Easy. Cleric3/Warlock 1. The least invocation you pick up can count as a 2nd level spell, depending on the invocation. Pick something fun like shatter or eldritch spear.

Blah. Never mind. They specifically disallow that. Ah well. Carry on.

[Fizban]

What about Sanctum Spell? It increases the effective level of the spell by 1 when cast within your sanctum, same wording as heighten spell, and of course doesn't take up a higher slot.

[Kurald Galain]

What about Sanctum Spell? It increases the effective level of the spell by 1 when cast within your sanctum, same wording as heighten spell, and of course doesn't take up a higher slot.

"Effective level" is not the same as "level".

If you're casting a first-level spell with an effective level of 20, you're still casting a first-level spell. Effective level only changes such things as the save DC and a fireball's damage dice.

[Talic]

"Effective level" is not the same as "level".

If you're casting a first-level spell with an effective level of 20, you're still casting a first-level spell. Effective level only changes such things as the save DC and a fireball's damage dice.



Heighten Spell [Metamagic]

Benefit: A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies.


Underlined for emphasis. Sanctum spell should work, as long as heighten works.

On a side note, effective level does determine a spell's save dc, but has no bearing on a fireball's damage dice. That's caster level.

[Idea Man]

Even if the spellthief did qualify for MT by means of stell spell, he would stop qualifying as soon as the spells left his inventory, which, as I recall, isn't very long. Just like you can't use power attack if weakened below a strength of thirteen. If you took mystic theurge in the meantime, the level wouldn't do you any good, because you no longer meet the prerequisites.

Yeah, that can be a bit unrealistic, but we aren't talking about an alignment restriction, but actual ability to do the job in the first place.

[Emperor Demonking]

You still gain the benefits of the PrC, even if you no longer qualify.

[Dark Tira]

Precocious Apprentice doesn't work for early entry into Mystic Theurge. It doesn't specify arcane spells, so being able to cast 2nd level divine spells nullifies Precocious Apprentice.


A valid interpretation. However, you're assuming that the MT would have 2nd level divine spells. What if the MT was a Wizard 1/ Shadowcaster 3?

[Arbitrarity]

A valid interpretation. However, you're assuming that the MT would have 2nd level divine spells. What if the MT was a Wizard 1/ Shadowcaster 3?

MT specifies divine spells....

[Dark Tira]

MT specifies divine spells....

And Shadowcaster is a specific exemption to that.

[Arbitrarity]

:smallbiggrin: Aparently, I need to get ToM then.

Huh, WoTC forums say you will not gain the benefits of +1 divine spellcasting level. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=971518)

[Dark Tira]

:smallbiggrin: Aparently, I need to get ToM then.

Huh, WoTC forums say you will not gain the benefits of +1 divine spellcasting level. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=971518)

Nice link but not particularly applicable to the discussion. It could be argued by someone who takes rules interpretation extremely literally that although a shadowcaster is explicitly allowed to qualify for MT he would not gain any advancement for his mysteries since it does not explicitly change the MT spell advancement wording. That is getting off the subject though since the thread is about qualifying for MT and not optimizing MT for which shadowcaster would be a poor selection to start with.

[Solo]

Entry into MT is 2nd level arcane and 2nd level divine, yes?

Easy. Cleric3/Warlock 1. The least invocation you pick up can count as a 2nd level spell, depending on the invocation. Pick something fun like shatter or eldritch spear.

Blah. Never mind. They specifically disallow that. Ah well. Carry on.

You're thinking Eldritch Disciple, I think.

[Reinboom]

So, I think it's agreed that earliest entry is 4th level? But only because of skill ranks required? :smalltongue:
Where else could be discussed on such a topic that, has, actually been answered? It's a strange thing to occur in the gaming d20 forum...

[Arbitrarity]

Wouldn't that be third level?

[Reinboom]

Wouldn't that be third level?

You require 3 levels before it. Mystic Theurge is the 4th level.

[Arbitrarity]

K, I guess that works. I was thinking of "You qualify to enter", as opposed to actually entering.

[hamishspence]

What source is Precocious Apprentice in anyway? I have delved through my large collection of D&D and Faerun hardbacks and cannot find it. Was it in the now somewhat defunct Tome and Blood?

[Kaelik]

What source is Precocious Apprentice in anyway? I have delved through my large collection of D&D and Faerun hardbacks and cannot find it. Was it in the now somewhat defunct Tome and Blood?

It's in Complete Arcane. It's on page 180 or something.

[Stephen_E]

Precocious Apprentice is pg 181 Comp Arcane.

It's an appalling badly written feat, but if you read it filling in the inclear bits by using the assumption that it uses the wording shortcuts DnD rules normally use it allows fast entry into MT.

If you read it in a pedantic, legalistic backflips way it doesn't allow quick entry. The base justification for this interpretation is that the designer of the feat, when the MT use was raised with him, stated that he hadn't intended the feat be used this way. I have pointed out to people who argue against it that if you apply that same pedantic style of interpretation to the PHB the entire game falls apart, but they tend to get very evasive and rules contortionist as to why that level of pedanticness should only be applied to the Precocious Apprentice feat.

My general view (after starting out where the naysayers were) is that the feat does allow early entry to MT, but it is such an appalling badly written feat that any DM should feel no guilt or requirement of other justification to ban it if he/she decides they don't want it.

Stephen

[Kurald Galain]

Precocious Apprentice is pg 181 Comp Arcane.
So, in other words, you are Absolutely Without Any Doubt Right, and anyone who disagrees with you is a pedantic legalistic backflipper? Wow, that was a friendly post.

[Stephen_E]

So, in other words, you are Absolutely Without Any Doubt Right, and anyone who disagrees with you is a pedantic legalistic backflipper? Wow, that was a friendly post.


:smallbiggrin:

I'm wrong reasonably often, but the justification I've seen to claim that Precocious Apprentice doesn't qualify you for MT (and this includes arguments I myself made years ago in a game) require pedantic legalism and IMO, based on the comments by the people making the arguments, start from the premise "It shouldn't work" or "It's to cheesy to allow" and then look for clauses to support this. Because the feat is written so poorly there is scope for doing so, but the fact that the people I've talked with are more than a little unwilling to apply the same wordchopping logic to other rules involving spellcasting (it'd make a mess of things if they did) says to me that they are specifically been pedantic with this feat to create a certain interpretation.

I'd also note that been pedantic/logic-wordchopping isn't defualt a bad thing. I reccomend it as the best approach for a DM to take when players want to use the Magic Item Creation guidelines, but for keeping everyone on the same page it best if you say "I'm reading this feat in a very pedantic way because it shouldn't be used in this way".

If I come across as hostile it's probably because in the threads where this has been debated I've found the anti-PA/MT people have tended to take the position that the feat quite clearly can't work that way, no ambiguity involved, claim that somewhere there is rulings to back them (which is never cited) and anyone saying otherwise is been silly/munchkin. Arrogance and Hostility beget Arrogance and Hostility.:smalltongue:

DnD rules aren't written to be read pedantically (Althought sometimes they can be improved by doing so). The death rules are an example. Pedantic reading says you can fight on after death. There are plenty of hints and implications that you can't, but they don't actually say it. Precocious Apprentice doesn't specifically say it only applies to arcane spells (I did say it's a very poorly written feat) but all the surrounding text makes it a sensible assumption. The assumption that divine casting is included is, given that the surrounding text doesn't mention Divine casting at all, an assumption out of left field for the purpose of stopping the PA/MT use.

Stephen