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Abjurer
2007-12-29, 02:19 PM
Here's a base class I made a while ago as a less combat-oriented alternative to other divine casters. His crowning achievement is, at 20th level, to be able to cast heal as a quickened spell with a range of 20 ft. This would, I realize as an afterthought, be extremely effective against undead. But clerics sort of are. Meh, it's pretty much for the fun of it. Check it out before you criticize.

The Healer

Alignment
A healer cannot be evil.

Hit Die
d6.

Class Skills
A healer’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Survival (Wis), Tumble (Dex), and Use Magic Device (Cha).

Skill Points at 1st Level
(4 + Int modifier) x4.

Skill Points at Each Additional Level
4 + Int modifier

The Healer
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th| 9th

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2|Practiced Healer +1, Healer's Edge|5|3|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3|Defensive Knack|6|4|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

3rd|
+1|
+1|
+1|
+3|First Aid +1|6|5|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

4th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4|Practiced Healer +2|6|6|3|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

5th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4|Healing Reach, Golden Vigor|6|6|4|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

6th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5|Subtle Healing|6|6|5|3|-|-|-|-|-|-

7th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5|Practiced Healer +3|6|6|6|4|-|-|-|-|-|-

8th|
+4|
+2|
+2|
+6|Reflexive Healing 2|6|6|6|5|3|-|-|-|-|-

9th|
+4|
+3|
+3|
+6|First Aid +2|6|6|6|6|4|-|-|-|-|-

10th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+7|Practiced Healer +4|6|6|6|6|5|3|-|-|-|-

11th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+7|Reflexive Healing 3|6|6|6|6|6|4|-|-|-|-

12th|
+6/+1|
+4|
+4|
+8||6|6|6|6|6|5|3|-|-|-

13th|
+6/+1|
+4|
+4|
+8|Practiced Healer +5|6|6|6|6|6|6|4|-|-|-

14th|
+7/+2|
+4|
+4|
+9|Reflexive Healing 4|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|3|-|-

15th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+5|
+9|First Aid +3|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|4|-|-

16th|
+8/+3|
+5|
+5|
+10|Practiced Healer +6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|3|-

17th|
+8/+3|
+5|
+5|
+10|Reflexive Healing 5|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|4|-

18th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+6|
+11||6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|3

19th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+6|
+11|Practiced Healer +7|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|4

20th|
+10/+5|
+6|
+6|
+12|Reflexive Healing 6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6[/table]

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the healer.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Healers are proficient with the club, dagger, heavy crossbow, light crossbow, and quarterstaff, but not with any type of armor or shield.

Aura
If a healer is good or lawful, or both, he has a particularly powerful aura of that alignment.

Spells
A healer casts divine spells, which are drawn from the healer spell list. A healer gains bonus spells per day for a high wisdom score.

To cast a spell, a healer must have a wisdom score of at least 10 + the spell level. The difficulty class for a saving throw against a healer’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the healer’s wisdom modifier.

A healer need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his spells per day for that spell level. He does not have to decide ahead of time which spells he’ll cast.

Bonus Languages
Celestial, Draconic, and Sylvan are added to a healer’s list of bonus languages.

Practiced Healer
All spells with the healing descriptor cast by a healer are cast at +1 caster level. In addition, at first level, a healer gets a +1 bonus to all heal checks. This bonus to heal checks increases by +1 every three levels thereafter, stopping at +7 when the character reaches level 19.

Healer's Edge
Because the healer specializes almost exclusively in healing magic, his healing spells are more potent than those of other casters at the same level. A healer can add his WIS modifier as a bonus on any spell he casts with the healing descriptor. (Example: Cure Light Wounds at CL 5 would heal 1D8 + 5 + WIS)

Defensive Knack
A second-level healer has had a taste of the front lines, and developed a "sixth sense" towards incoming attacks. While wearing no armor or shield, he may add his wisdom modifier as a dodge bonus to his AC, to a maximum of half his healer level. This bonus is lost whenever the healer would be denied his dexterity to his AC.

First Aid
Beginning at 3rd level, a healer can provide first aid as a move action. In addition, when a healer provides first aid to stabalize an ally who has dropped below zero hit points, the ally gains one hit point. This increases to two hit points at 9th level and to three hit points at 15th level.

Healing Reach
Beginning at 5th level, a healer can cast touch-range healing spells with as ranged touch spells with a range of five feet. At tenth level, the range of the healer's healing reach increases to 10 ft, at fifteenth it increases to 15 ft, and at 20th level to 20 ft.

Golden Vigor
Positive energy flows continuously through the veins of a fifth-level healer. Whenever he falls below half his maximum hit points, he gains Fast Healing 1 for as long as his hit points are below half their maximum. This fast healing can never heal him above half his maximum health. At 10th level, and every 5 healer levels thereafter, the Fast Healing granted by Golden Vigor increases by 1, to a maximum of four at 20th level.

Subtle Healing
Beginning at 6th level, a healer can cast healing spells without provoking attacks of opportunity.

Reflexive Healing
At 8th level, all spells with the healing descriptor of spell level two or lower are automatically quickened. At 11th level, this extends to third level spells, at 14th level it extends to fourth level spells, at 17th level, it extends to fifth level spells, and at 20th level, it extends to sixth level spells.

The Healer Spell List


Spells marked with an asterisk * can be found in the Spell Compendium.
Those with a superscript one ¹ are from the Book of Exalted Deeds.
The ones marked with a two ² are from Complete Scoundrel.
Those with a three ³ are from the Player's Handbook II.

Healer Orisons:
Create Water
Cure Minor Wounds
Detect Magic
Detect Poison
Know Direction
Light
Mending
Purify Food and Drink
Read Magic
Virtue

1st-Level Healer Spells:
Bless
Bless Water
Comprehend Languages
Cure Light Wounds
Delay disease*
Detect Evil/Chaos
Entropic Shield
Healer's Vision²
Healthful rest*
Invest Light Protection³
Obscuring Mist
Protection from Evil/Chaos
Remove Fear
Sanctuary
Second Wind¹
Shield of Faith
Vigor, lesser*

2nd-Level Healer Spells:
Aid
Augury
Calm Emotions
Close wounds*
Cure Moderate Wounds
Delay Poison
Ease Pain¹
Estanna's Stew¹
Gentle Repose
Insight of Good Fortune³
Make Whole
Moment of Clarity¹
Remove Addiction¹
Remove Paralysis
Resist Energy
Restoration, Lesser
Stabalize*
Status
Stay the Hand³
Zone of Truth

3rd-Level Healer Spells:
Aid, mass*
Alter Fortune³
Create Food and Water
Cure Serious Wounds
Daylight
Dispel Magic
Heart's Ease¹
Invest Moderate Protection³
Locate Object
Magic Circle against Evil/Chaos
Obscure Object
Prayer
Protection from Energy
Refreshment¹
Remove Blindness/Deafness
Remove Curse
Remove Disease
Remove Nausea¹
Water Breathing
Vigor*
Vigor, mass lesser*

4th-Level Healer Spells:
Air Walk
Blood of the Martyr¹
Channeled Divine Health³
Cure Critical Wounds
Death Ward
Delay death*
Discern Lies
Dismissal
Freedom of Movement
Glory of the Martyr¹
Greater Status¹
Healing Spirit³
Neutralize Poison
Panacea*
Positive energy aura*
Reincarnate
Remove Fatigue¹
Restoration
Spell Immunity
Sustain¹
Tongues

5th-Level Healer Spells:
Atonement
Break Enchantment
Convert Wand¹
Cure Light Wounds, Mass
Energetic Healing¹
Evacuation Rune²
Invest Heavy Protection³
Magical Convalescence³
Renewed Vigor³
Revivify*
Sanctuary, mass*
Spell Resistance
True Seeing
Vigor, greater*
Warding Gems¹

6th-Level Healer Spells:
Banishment
Cure Moderate Wounds, Mass
Dispel Magic, Greater
Heal
Revive outsider*
Starmantle¹
Wind Walk
Word of Recall

7th-Level Healer Spells:
Bastion of Good¹
Cure Serious Wounds, Mass
Fortunate fate*
Refuge
Regenerate
Restoration, Greater
Restoration, mass*
Resurrection
Shield of the Archons¹

8th-Level Healer Spells:
Cure Critical Wounds, Mass
Death ward, mass*
Holy Aura
Shield of Law
Spell Immunity, Greater
Spread of Contentment¹
Visions of the Future³

9th-Level Healer Spells:
Heal, Mass
Miracle
Mordenkainen’s Disjunction
Sublime Revelry¹
True Resurrection



----------
Feats:

Extended Reach Spell [Metamagic]
Prerequisites: Healing Reach, Heal 8 ranks, Spellcraft 8 ranks

Benefit: This feat can only be applied to a spell with the [healing] descriptor to which the Healing Reach ability applies. With the Extended Reach metamagic, the range of the spell is increased to Close (25 ft. + five ft. per two levels) as you force your Healing Reach beyond its normal limits. However, tending to allies from a distance is taxing because it it difficult to analyze their wounds without being in contact with them, and as such no other bonuses (such as Practiced Healer or Healer's Edge) apply to a spell modified in this way. An Extended Reach spell uses a spell slot one higher than the spell's normal level.

Special: Because of their strict focus, a Healer may use Extended Reach without increasing the spell's casting time.



Mobile Healer [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Mobility, Healer 6, Wis 15+

Benefits: You are specialized in moving quickly through combat, healing allies and avoiding enemies on the way. You may move before and after casting a spell with the [healing] descriptor, though you may only move up to your normal land speed in a single round. Your movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.

Normal: Normally you may only move before or after casting any spell.



Parley [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Charisma 15+, Diplomacy 8 ranks, Skill Focus (Diplomacy), and either access to one or more spell with the healing descriptor or 8 ranks in heal.

Benefit: It's said that actions speak louder than words, but you know the power of well-spoken words. Before you and your party engage an enemy or enemies in combat, you can choose to inform them that you are not a threat, but simply a medic. All intelligent, level-headed enemies that can hear you and can understand the language you're speaking must make a Will save or Sense Motive check (DC 10 + 1/2 your ranks in Diplomacy + your CHA modifier) or be unable to make attacks of opportunity against you. They may still target you and attack you as normal. This effect is broken if you deal any damage to anyone under the effects of Parley. This is a language-dependent, mind-affecting effect.

Normal: Asking someone to not kill you is only more reason for you to die.

-

Umarth
2007-12-29, 04:27 PM
It seems a PC would be unlikely to ever take this class. Healing is the least fun part of the game in most peoples opinion.

Still I imagine this would be popular for cohorts.

Lady Tialait
2007-12-29, 04:32 PM
I would personally loose the cleric for this class...but then again. I'm not much for agrro clerics.

Healing is one of the Vital funtions of the game....i've played two campaings now that the cleric acually ran out of spells without healing ANYONE...resulting in a TPK...so..maybe this would be a nice addition..

JackMage666
2007-12-29, 05:03 PM
The main problem I see if the end result of +7 CL for the Healing spells... That's huge when you put it into spells like Heal or Mass Heal. As well, he can slay undead better than a cleric, because his (ranged) healing spells deal massive amounts of damage.

You might want to consider reducing the CL bonus, is all. +4 at level 20 is considerable better, so you could give a CL increase at 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level.

EDIT - Also, reflexive spellcasting is unusually strong as well. Free Quickening as early as 8th level, and as high level spells as 6th could cause problems. A 20th level Healer casting Heal quickened ever time there's a problem could lead to an unbeatable party.


EDIT2 - I forgot to mention that the Healer is a class in Minature's Handbook. While widely considered underpowered, this could be a decent fix (once some things get squared away) , so the name could stay the same.

ZeroNumerous
2007-12-29, 05:05 PM
Yes, but in a campaign without Undead(easily possible), this class is restricted to just healing. And sure, an extra +70 HP with Heal or Mass Heal is big, but at the levels you have access to that HP damage is very, very, very rarely what drops a PC. Usually it's a status effect like Flesh to Stone.

Magnor Criol
2007-12-29, 05:12 PM
The main problem I see if the end result of +7 CL for the Healing spells... That's huge when you put it into spells like Heal or Mass Heal. As well, he can slay undead better than a cleric, because his (ranged) healing spells deal massive amounts of damage.

You might want to consider reducing the CL bonus, is all. +4 at level 20 is considerable better, so you could give a CL increase at 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level.



Practiced Healer
At first level, a healer gets a +1 bonus to all heal checks. This bonus increases by +1 every three levels thereafter, stopping at +7 when the character reaches level 19. In addition, all spells with the healing descriptor cast by the healer are cast at +1 caster level.

They don't get +7 to caster level, only to heal checks; the +1 to caster level is flat.

Perhaps, to counter the effectiveness versus undead problem (which, as ZeroNumerous pointed out, stands a decent chance of not really being a problem at all), you could simply add some sort of clause that the healer's healing spells lose power when not actively healing, or something. Crunchwise it'd be something along the lines of healing spells that are modified by one of the healer's abilities (perhaps the ranged touch bit) are nerfed versus undead, and fluffwise it'd be something along the lines of a healer's powers are granted to heal, not to harm - even as it applies to undead.

I like the flavor of this class; and despite Umarth's comments, I'd not mind taking this class, I usually play support roles anyhow.

I'd consider adding shield and maybe some armor proficiency. The shield, especially, fits flavorfully with the class, in my opinion.

Zenos
2007-12-29, 05:26 PM
I would say put in some stuff like stone to flesh and remove curse and stuff. Maybe also give them a little offensive abilities tied with hypnotism, since hypnotism can supposedly be kind off used in healing.

Abjurer
2007-12-29, 08:19 PM
Thank you, Magnor. Yes, the healer does not gain his practiced healer bonus on caster level. That would be ridiculous. I'm pretty sure that's how it's written, so let's read it before shooting it down, yes? Also, heal tops out at 150 hit points, so the worst that's going to happen is a perfect heal spell at fourteenth level instead of fifteenth. Any cleric with the healing domain gets exactly the same thing.

In response to JackMage's criticism of reflexive spellcasting, I do in fact have a reason for every bump and dip in the class progression. All those I can see, leastways. Reflexive spellcasting included. Sure an eighth-level healer can cast quickened second-level spells, but let's look at his options, shall we?

He can give his buddies a +1 to fear and a couple extra hit points! He can calm wild animals! He can heal a spectacular 2d8+10 points of damage! For whom, at eighth level, is ~19 points of healing seriously going to make a significant impact? The healer himself, perhaps, but doesn't it make sense that he can take care of himself on the fly? He can delay poison. He can restore damaged attributes. He can check the conditions of his allies. I like the image of the healer running around patching people up quick. He can cover a whole regiment if he needs to.

And I really don't think he's overpowered.

EDIT: I thought I'd already given him remove curse (or at least meant to), but looking back I don't see it. Thanks, I'll add it now.

EDIT EDIT: Ah, nevermind. It is there. Look under 3rd level spells.

JackMage666
2007-12-29, 08:28 PM
Alright, for one the wording on the Practiced Healer is a bit misleading, hence why I thought i was at every gain. Perhaps changing the wording will help.

Well, let's take Reflexive Spellcasting into account another way. If a Cleric want to, say, cast Cure Moderate Wounds quickened, at 8th level, He couldn't, because the +4 Spell Level makes it uncastable. In fact, he wouldn't be able to Quicken a 2nd Level Spell until 11th level. Not to mention it would take up a spell slot at 6th level, rather than 2nd.

In fact, Quickening 6th level spells (barring certain feats), pre-epic isn't possible.

Quickening is powerful stuff. They can cast 2 spells a round, and it won't even take up an advanced spell level.

Abjurer
2007-12-29, 08:37 PM
Right, and try to tell me any 20th-level healing-specialized cleric doesn't have access to quickened spells somehow or another. Usually, it's probably through a metamagic rod, but a healer can't use metamagic at all, because he's spontaneous. At least, he can't quicken. This fixes the whole issue and let's him heal in a way that normal clerics cannot. That is, faster.

Please remember, too, that I'm docking quite a lot of stuff for this healing magic. Clerics are proficient with armor. They have 75% BAB progression. They have d8 hit dice. They get higher-level spells sooner than my healer (just as a wizard gets them sooner than a sorcerer), and they're more flexible in their spellcasting. That's not to mention the powerful destructive magic at their disposal.

EDIT: In addition, the reflexive healing ability only applies to healing. This restricts the choices even more. Because of this, an eighth-level healer can cast one quickened cure light wounds or one quickened cure moderate wounds every round. Every round seems like a lot, but healing is likely all the healer will be doing anyway. And one extra member to the party (even if he is an NPC cohort, which seems likely) increases the CR of the party, meaning harder monsters, meaning more necessity for healing. Everything balances itself out, as long as the healing abilities of the healer are not out of proportion to his physical weakness in combat.

Charlie Kemek
2007-12-30, 12:42 AM
you might want to lower the level of the healing spells by one, bar the 9th level and the raise dead spells, and maybe even make it so that the class member knows all the spells on the list at any given level. however, they should only be able to cast them at long range at the normal level. do you think that making the member make a heal check when he casts it at long range more balanced with all of this? I am a little new, and it is kind of late over here. if i make a huge mistake, please tell me.:smallredface:

Abjurer
2007-12-30, 01:21 PM
The idea of this class is as a better healer than clerics, but at the cost of combat prowise (like, all of it). And now you're suggesting I completely dock the highest-level spells? Mass Heal should be right up there with the caster's favorite spells, should it not? And ressurection spells are sort of what this class is about. They complete the circle, am I wrong? I do not understand your argument; please explain what's wrong. Is the class just too powerful?

Magnor Criol
2007-12-30, 01:47 PM
Barring 9th level spells seems like an arbitrary suggestion to me. Perhaps he simply saw others commenting on the power level and wanted to throw out a few suggestions that came to mind.

Perhaps, for some more flavorful abilities here, you could let them do more with the Heal skill. Let them sacrifice a spell (a la the cleric's spontaneous heal-casting ability) to magically empower their hands as they heal someone, giving them the chance to remove a curse, or some other status not usually effected by a Heal check. I'm not sure what mechanics should be involved (what spell level, what sort of DC to set) but I think it'd be a cool addition to the class, and it would let it do something no one else could, not even clerics.

Abjurer
2007-12-30, 01:53 PM
But if that's the case, why don't they just cast the spell? I mean, you're sacking a spell to perform exactly the same action as the spell would.

It might be handy in an antimagic field, but empowering your hands with positive energy seems like it would be blocked by antimagic just as well as casting remove curse.

I could let them sac spells to get a bonus on heal checks...

Fenix_of_Doom
2007-12-30, 02:24 PM
Alignment
A healer cannot be evil or chaotic.


What do you have against chaos? I can't see why a chaotic good person shouldn't be able to heal.

Other then that, I'd never want to play this class either, but it does do exactly what it's supposed to do.
However I'd up the hit die to D6 or D8 and give access to either light armour or some monk type defences, what use is a healer that dies when he rushes in to save someone?
It also seems to me that handle animal wouldn't be a bad class skill for this class, so that it is also playable as a more nature oriented type.

Edit: with poor BaB, poor weapons and no offensive spells, I think you can safely make this class a bit tougher, it'll never become a combat monster(besides against undead that is).

Magnor Criol
2007-12-30, 02:25 PM
I'm merely thinking out loud here, not saying I'm coming up with gems of ideas. =p Giving it an ability like that would simply allowing it to expand the Heal skill in a way that that no one else can do, not even with a feat.

Obviously there'd need to be some sort of boost or incentive to make it a better choice, or at least a viable alternative, to simply casting the spell. I don't know what that incentive would have been. The idea just came to me whilst reading, and so I put it down, rather than let it evaporate from my head as ideas so often do.

Abjurer
2007-12-30, 02:38 PM
And I appreciate bouncing ideas off you.

And I'll think about yours, but I found a spell that might cover what you're thinking of. Healing lorecall allows the caster to remove afflictions along with castings of healing-descriptor spells, based on the number of ranks he has in the heal skill. Five or more ranks allow him to remove daze, dazzle or fatigue. Ten or more allow him to remove exhaustion, nausea or sickness. Plus, you can substitute your ranks in heal for your caster level when determining the amount of damage healed by your healing-descriptor spells. So, for example, a third-level healer with six ranks of heal cures 1d8+5 points of damage with cure light wounds.

Speaking of healing spells, I got a Spell Compendium for Christmas, and I've been looking through it for new healing spells. I've found a few, and I'm thinking of adding them to the healer spell list:


-----

1st-level:
Delay disease- like delay poison, but disease. One whole day.
Healthful rest- subjects heal twice as fast as normal. One day.
Vigor, lesser- grants the subject fast healing 1. Up to 15 rounds.

2nd-level:
Close wounds- close-range immediate cure 1d4 +1/level (max+5).
Healing lorecall- use healing-descriptor spells to remove conditions.
Stabalize- pretty much mass cure minor wounds. 1 point to area.

3rd-level:
Aid, mass- aid. mass. and up to 1d8+15 temperory hit points.
Vigor- as lesser vigor, but 2 hp/round, and up to 25 rounds.
Vigor, mass lesser- as lesser vigor, but with multiple subjects.

4th-level:
Delay death- only from hit point loss. It works for a round/level.
Panacea- cures light wounds, and removes magical affliction, poison.
Positive energy aura- heals 1 hp/3 levels in 10 ft, for 1 round/level.

5th-level:
Revivify- raises dead with no level loss, but must be cast immediately.
Sanctuary, mass- sanctuary, except affects one creature per level.
Vigor, greater- as lesser vigor, but 4 hp per round.

6th-level:
Revive outsider- as revive, but can be cast successfully on outsiders.

7th-level:
Fortunate fate- sets contingent heal on target, cast to prevent death.
Restoration, mass- restoration. on multiple targets. and at higher level.

8th-level:
Death ward, mass- protects multiple targets from death magic.


-----

What do you think?

Magnor Criol
2007-12-30, 02:57 PM
Healing Lorecall sounds excellent. I'd make it a class feature rather than a spell they can cast, though - either a Spell-Like Ability or even something more pervasively active than that, such as a constant ability. Whatever balance dictates.

I like the expanded list of spells, but you probably want to notate that they're not from core as you add them to the list, putting an asterix or something behind them. This way someone who doesn't have the SpC can still play the Healer. (For this reason, too, if you make Healing Lorecall a class feature, make sure to write it out.)

Abjurer
2007-12-30, 03:10 PM
Wow, you're speaking my mind.

I was just deliberating making healing lorecall a sort of... supernatural ability for the healer. I think it would be good, but I don't want to put it in at the start... at least, I don't want to make it a permanent quality at the start... Maybe I'll allow it to work, but only if the healer spends at least a minute working on the subject. Then I can knock it down to, like, two full round actions at 12th level and one full round at 18th... or something.

And yeah, I'd planned to use asterisks.

Also, since I'm expanding the spell list (it does look ever so nice and professional now), I think I'll limit the number of spells a healer can know... sort of like a sorcerer.

ZeroNumerous
2007-12-30, 03:30 PM
Also, since I'm expanding the spell list (it does look ever so nice and professional now), I think I'll limit the number of spells a healer can know... sort of like a sorcerer.

...Why? It's not like a Healer is going to be an obscenely powerful caster who completely overshadows anyone else in the party, so there is no point in giving them a restriction on their spellcasting ability. Really, I don't see the class as being overpowered even with a D8 HD, armor, shields, and 3/4th BAB.

Abjurer
2007-12-30, 03:35 PM
Good point. I'm not giving him armor or better hit dice or BAB, though. That's one of the points I'm trying to adhere to with this class--that he can't fight.

Fenix_of_Doom
2007-12-30, 03:47 PM
Good point. I'm not giving him armor or better hit dice or BAB, though. That's one of the points I'm trying to adhere to with this class--that he can't fight.

Having a D8 hit die or wearing light armour doesn't make you capable of fighting, it makes you capable of surviving.

BTW did you even read the post I made above?

Abjurer
2007-12-30, 03:51 PM
Yes, I did. A chaotic cleric would never heal people. I mean, what reason does a divine caster have to cast divine spells if he's chaotic? Probably to incite chaos. And if that's your goal, why on earth would you specialize (exclusively) in healing?

Healers can still wear armor, they just aren't proficient. Heck, they could even take feats and get proficiency; they don't have to worry about spell failure chance. Healers just aren't trained to use armor. They are trained to heal.

Same deal with the hit dice. Healers are not meant to stand up well in heavy fire. They're not trained to confront enemies themselves, and they're not trained to withstand large amounts of damage. They have devoted their lives to an unparalleled mastery of the healing arts just as a wizard is dedicated to the arcane ones.

Witch
2007-12-30, 04:01 PM
Yes, I did. A chaotic cleric would never heal people. I mean, what reason does a divine caster have to cast divine spells if he's chaotic? Probably to incite chaos. And if that's your goal, why on earth would you specialize (exclusively) in healing?
Because you like helping people but still value individual freedom?
Because you cannot stand to see people suffer?
Because you want to assist your friends in their struggle against tyranny?

Going further than that, why would evil people not be able to heal?
What if a man wants to keep control over a city by eliminating all other healers, establishing a rule by ensuring he is the only one to combat disease around? What if a man is significantly evil because he is selfish in a sense, but still deeply cares about his hometown, family and friends - just not about anybody else - and wants to help them defend themselves, or conquer? After all, he realizes healing is important.


Thinking evil or chaotic people can't heal is a significant simplification of the alignment system to the point where it makes no sense other than to make people play caricatures of their alignment.

Magnor Criol
2007-12-30, 04:09 PM
Yes, I did. A chaotic cleric would never heal people. I mean, what reason does a divine caster have to cast divine spells if he's chaotic? Probably to incite chaos. And if that's your goal, why on earth would you specialize (exclusively) in healing?

I disagree with your point about chaotic characters. Chaotic good characters have every reason to heal friends and allies - they're friends and allies, after all, and that means that they're worry about them (as per the "Good" component of their alignment.) Chaotic speaks to other aspects of behavior, but at least for the reasons you just professed I don't think that they'd be inimical to this class. A chaotic good cleric doesn't cast spells purely to incite chaos; she casts spells to spread good and to counter law. (as far as overarching goals of things go, anyhow.) And healing falls under "Good", in my book.

However, this discussion may be starting to travel off the topic of healer and into the oft-rehashed discussion of what alignment means...which may not be a very fruitful conversation.

In the end, is it really a big deal? If one of us likes this class, but wants to play a chaotic good character, it's simple to just say that we are. It's already a homebrewed character, it's not like homebrewing the homebrew is against some rule or something. =p



To counter the low hit die problem, how about letting the Healer have some abilities to help save his hide in case of a potentially fatal attack? Some sort of Heal check made when they receive an attack that would put them between -1 and -9 hit points that automatically stabilizes them.

This allows a healer to still be quite vulnerable to attack, but they stand a much better chance of surviving a fight, albiet not necessarily in top condition. A party with a Healer in its ranks isn't likely to worry much about other healing methods, so a Healer knocked to negative hit points - and thus losing 1 HP per round - isn't likely to get the aid they require, it would seem to me. An auto-stabilization feature would let them simply hang tight at whatever level below 0 they're at, wait for their comrades to (hopefully) finish the fight, then tend to them with whatever limited means they have.

Fluffwise, it works - someone so well-versed in healing would likely know a trick or two about how to help themselves out if they're in a medical crisis.

-E- Edited for quote clarity.

Fenix_of_Doom
2007-12-30, 05:14 PM
Yes, I did. A chaotic cleric would never heal people. I mean, what reason does a divine caster have to cast divine spells if he's chaotic? Probably to incite chaos. And if that's your goal, why on earth would you specialize (exclusively) in healing?

Healers can still wear armor, they just aren't proficient. Heck, they could even take feats and get proficiency; they don't have to worry about spell failure chance. Healers just aren't trained to use armor. They are trained to heal.

Same deal with the hit dice. Healers are not meant to stand up well in heavy fire. They're not trained to confront enemies themselves, and they're not trained to withstand large amounts of damage. They have devoted their lives to an unparalleled mastery of the healing arts just as a wizard is dedicated to the arcane ones.

I hope you are being sarcastic.
Traditionally a healers first rule is: Stay alive, if your dead, nobody will save your companions.
About the chaotic part, healing isn't lawful by any definition.
If creating law is your goal, why would you want to heal exclusively; maybe we should restrict it to neutral good only!!!
Or maybe we should just admit that creating law/chaos has very little to do with the alignments themselves.

Holocron Coder
2007-12-30, 06:57 PM
I attempted something like this at one point.. I think the result (Curate) is in my sig as well.

Feel free to steal from it :smallbiggrin:

Abjurer
2007-12-30, 07:06 PM
Yeah, it's good for the party wizard or sorcerer to stay alive, too. Everyone's goal is to stay alive, is it not? But for some reason Wizards of the Coast decided to give different classes different proficiencies and hit dice. I rather like the system they came up with. Higher hit dice has no impact whatsoever on a character's will to stay alive, and only a partial one on his ability to do so. If having bad HD was as integral as you're making it sound, no one would play arcane spellcasters.

And if you or anyone else wants to play a chaotic healer, go ahead. I have nothing wrong with it. The reason I discluded evil characters from the class is because traditionally, good clerics focus positive energy and evil clerics focus negative energy. Again, though, you're free to modify it in whatever way you wish. For your own campaign.

throtecutter
2007-12-30, 08:43 PM
Healing Reach is useless for actually healing your teammates until level 10 since you can normally heal people from 5 feet away.
Also, on the spell list the healer should get invisibility.
It looks good though.

Abjurer
2007-12-30, 09:02 PM
It's still a ranged touch, though. So you can use your dexterity modifier instead, which is probably higher. But for healing teammates, yeah, pretty much useless.

And why should the healer get invisibility? He's not a buff-caster.

Aluroon
2007-12-30, 11:10 PM
Yeah, it's good for the party wizard or sorcerer to stay alive, too. Everyone's goal is to stay alive, is it not? But for some reason Wizards of the Coast decided to give different classes different proficiencies and hit dice. I rather like the system they came up with. Higher hit dice has no impact whatsoever on a character's will to stay alive, and only a partial one on his ability to do so. If having bad HD was as integral as you're making it sound, no one would play arcane spellcasters.

This condescending smug crap was enough to make me register here, purely for the purpose of calling you out on it. The only classes you'll find with d4 HD are Arcane Casters. There a reason for that, namely arcane casters are fragile, they spend (if wizards) most of their time locked up in their towers or reading their books (or occasionally reading their books while locked up in their towers). There isn't a single base case outside of pure Arcane casters that has a d4 HD. I see no reason why a class like the healer, which has no offensive and very little defensive power, but who likely sees the front lines rather often to bring aid to those who are harmed, should have worse hit die's then everyone else. Its a practical and a balanced issue. Practically they are great targets without armor and have to get up close to help people (while Wizards and Sorcerers don't, and can rain death from afar or buff themselves), and as healers (often battlefield healers) they should be a bit tougher then scholars.

To be completely honest, I could never see any reason at all not to play Favorite Soul or a Cleric over your Healer, what with the crappy hit dice, crappy spell list, and lack of armor.



Yes, I did. A chaotic cleric would never heal people. I mean, what reason does a divine caster have to cast divine spells if he's chaotic? Probably to incite chaos. And if that's your goal, why on earth would you specialize (exclusively) in healing?


You've still yet to provide an even remotely decent reason why chaotic beings can't be healers. My chaotic good cleric of Lurue or Sharindlar is out of luck, he wouldn't ever heal, even though his god (either of them) grants healing as a domain.

Hell, my Cleric of Pelor (Who grants healing) can be CG but according to you would never heal anyone even though he has the healing domain. Maybe you should re-read your PHB and look up what it says under Chaotic Good eh?

Xyk
2007-12-30, 11:16 PM
Are you aware the healer is a class in the miniatures handbook? It is a good class as well. I just checked and yes, quite frankly, I like the the abilities of it much better.

Magnor Criol
2007-12-31, 01:16 AM
Are you aware the healer is a class in the miniatures handbook? It is a good class as well. I just checked and yes, quite frankly, I like the the abilities of it much better.

That's already been brought up once this thread. The healer is widely considered to be an underpowered class; I don't know which of its abilities you consider to be better than Abjurer's class' abilities, but I prefer Abjurer's version overall.

Aluroon - if someone is coming off to you as condescending and smug, calling them out like that, with more condescension and anger, is only going to make things worse. Someone who's being condescending is doing so based off pride, which is not an emotion that will go "Oh, hey, someone spoke harshly to me, I guess I better step back." Rather, they'll just get madder. Your "calling out" would only spark a flame war.

Personally, I don't detect any condescension or smugness; a bit defensive, perhaps, but not smug.

That being said, I think he does have a good argument for raising the HD, Abjurer. The d4 is based on the concept that a wizard's time is spent locked away in study, not preparing him physically for the rigors of adventure; what you're suggesting for your Healer, however, is some order which is trained for healing in a combat situation. That would imply at least some sort of physical exertion and training. A D6 hit die, at least, seems plausible.

Aluroon
2007-12-31, 02:05 AM
Aluroon - if someone is coming off to you as condescending and smug, calling them out like that, with more condescension and anger, is only going to make things worse. Someone who's being condescending is doing so based off pride, which is not an emotion that will go "Oh, hey, someone spoke harshly to me, I guess I better step back." Rather, they'll just get madder.

It sure makes me feel better though.



Personally, I don't detect any condescension or smugness; a bit defensive, perhaps, but not smug.


I think "But for some reason Wizards of the Coast decided to give different classes different proficiencies and hit dice" is probably a bit condescending and smug. We are at what is primarily a DND site, I think everyone here knows that wizards gave classes different hit dice and I don't think anyone wonders why.

Fenix_of_Doom
2007-12-31, 06:33 AM
Yeah, it's good for the party wizard or sorcerer to stay alive, too. Everyone's goal is to stay alive, is it not? But for some reason Wizards of the Coast decided to give different classes different proficiencies and hit dice. I rather like the system they came up with. Higher hit dice has no impact whatsoever on a character's will to stay alive, and only a partial one on his ability to do so. If having bad HD was as integral as you're making it sound, no one would play arcane spellcasters.

You maxed out craft (false argument), didn't you?
Ofcourse Hit Die and armour aren't the only factors that keep a character alive, but it damn sure has influence.
Consider this:
1 Most wizards and sorcerers are perfectly fine with staying as far away from enemies as possible, their spells have reach anyway
2 Wizards and sorcerers have tons of defensive spells, your healer? None!
3 The newer classes such as beguiler actually have both a D6 HD and are capable of wearing light armour. It has been said before that wizards is actually moving away form the "arcane classes can't wear any armour" stance.

Abjurer
2007-12-31, 10:28 AM
That's sort of a bummer. I like the arcane classes that don't wear any armor. But I guess that separates the people like you (who will be switching gladly to 4.0) from the people like me (who will continue to struggle stubbornly against change and hoard our 3.5 rules as though they are god-granted relics). This is one of the very very few stances in which I am strongly conservative. :smallwink:

If you would rather play a cleric or favored sould over my healer (with it's crappy saves, crappy hit dice, crappy whatever whatever), then go right ahead. I see no problem.

The reason I gave the healer bad hit dice was that I was trying to make it more like arcane spellcasters. That said, I see your point. And many of you still see my class as underpowered. I can bring it up to d6 if you wish.

And I've already addressed the chaotic thing.
You can change as much as you want.
For your own campaign.
Drop it already.

EDIT: I did not post this thread to start an insult-war. If that's what you're here for, you can leave. I started this thread to toss out some ideas I came up with and get some input on them. I'm perfectly happy for you to stay if you give input as opposed to just shooting down my ideas one by one. If you were to say "I think it would be better with better armor and higher HD because..." rather than "wow, you maxed out craft(false argument)" and "look at all that condescending smug CRAP", maybe I'd actually take your ideas into conscideration instead of just ignoring them as flaming. So stop, please. You're taking away the fun of homebrewing.

Charlie Kemek
2007-12-31, 10:45 AM
i think people were misunderstanding what i said, and i didn't type it right. I meant that you should lower the level of most of the healing spells—except for the ninth level healing spells, and the spells that raise people from the dead. for example: cure light wounds becomes a 0 level spell, but true resurrection stays a 9th level spell. and then when you try to cast them at long range, they go to the normal level. of course, i would instead just give them the feat "reach spell" from CA (i think) only for healing spells. then maybe raise the spells like "dispel magic" up a spell level.

now does this make sense?:smallredface:

Abjurer
2007-12-31, 10:50 AM
Oh, thank you. It makes sense, yeah, but I'm not so sure...
I'm reluctant to lower the levels of spells just because the healer is so good with them already. It seems too powerful. Then again, a lot of the people on this forum feel that the class is far too weak. So maybe they'll like it. Personally, I don't think it's all that much of a stretch, as long as the class really isn't too strong. It's just restructuring the spell-list again to favor healing even more. What's anyone else think?

Question: are you saying mass heal and true ressurection are still 9th-level spells?

Charlie Kemek
2007-12-31, 11:03 AM
Question: are you saying mass heal and true ressurection are still 9th-level spells?

yes, you shouldn't lower the 9th level spells, they are like that for a reason.

Xuincherguixe
2007-12-31, 11:07 AM
It's tempting to suggest changing the casting attribute to intelligence, boost the skill points, and add a few to it's class list.

I get that the point of the thing is to, well heal. But it should be able to do more than just heal.

Skill Monkey seems like a good secondary role for a healer.

Abjurer
2007-12-31, 11:09 AM
Aye, that's probably true.

One argument, though:
I made the healer so he can automatically quicken healing-descriptor spells once he gets to certain levels (reflexive healing), and if those spells drop a level, they can be quickened a good three levels earlier. Meaning quickened heals at 17th level. ...that might not be all bad. Or, I could just drop the reflexive healing by one, so the highest it gets is five. That way the healer gets access to heal, but not other normally-sixth-level spells.

EDIT: Sorry, that was addressed to the chap who suggested lowering healing spells' levels on the spell list. To the other one: the main reason the healer has WIS as a spellcasting attribute is because it's also used for heal checks. It makes sense to me that they both get a bonus for the same thing. But skills never hurt. Any skills in particular you think I should add?

EDIT EDIT: Ooo... we could add use magic device. That's a wonderfully broken skill.

Fenix_of_Doom
2007-12-31, 01:26 PM
That's sort of a bummer. I like the arcane classes that don't wear any armor. But I guess that separates the people like you (who will be switching gladly to 4.0) from the people like me (who will continue to struggle stubbornly against change and hoard our 3.5 rules as though they are god-granted relics). This is one of the very very few stances in which I am strongly conservative. :smallwink:


Actually, I'll judge switching to 4th edition when it gets there.



The reason I gave the healer bad hit dice was that I was trying to make it more like arcane spellcasters. That said, I see your point. And many of you still see my class as underpowered. I can bring it up to d6 if you wish.

And I've already addressed the chaotic thing.
You can change as much as you want.
For your own campaign.
Drop it already.


I see your argument, you like it that way, you want to make it something it's not(hence the confusion) and it's your class, we can use/change it if we want to. That's nice and all, but not very good design, I'm trying to help creating a decent class by offering advise and critique.




EDIT: I did not post this thread to start an insult-war. If that's what you're here for, you can leave. I started this thread to toss out some ideas I came up with and get some input on them. I'm perfectly happy for you to stay if you give input as opposed to just shooting down my ideas one by one. If you were to say "I think it would be better with better armor and higher HD because..." rather than "wow, you maxed out craft(false argument)" and "look at all that condescending smug CRAP", maybe I'd actually take your ideas into conscideration instead of just ignoring them as flaming. So stop, please. You're taking away the fun of homebrewing.

It was never my intention to insult you, it was more a humorous comment on your uses of non-argument which were apparently based on personal preferences. I also didn't shoot down all your ideas, just two of them and I do think I provided arguments for that at several points.
I actually find the suggestion that I do all the things above mildly offending, but I can forgive you that, if you can do the same.


BTW if you want me to stop posting in this thread then say so and I'm gone.

Abjurer
2007-12-31, 01:36 PM
Not at all, and I'm sorry to offend you.

But why do you say I "want to make it something it's not"?
The reason I posted this class is that I made it exactly what it is.

Durithill the B
2007-12-31, 01:41 PM
which were apparently based on personal preferences.
So far, it has been my experience that pretty much everything in D&D is about personal preferences. If you want to be sneaky, you play a rogue. You want to heal people, you play a cleric. Your DM doesn't like Psionics, you don't play a Psion.

But I personally like the class well enough where it is. I think it should have a little more defensive capabilities, like either light armor of shields. Maybe a few more defensive spells? After all, a class trained in healing their comrades might be trained in keeping them alive other ways as well, might they not?

Abjurer
2007-12-31, 02:02 PM
Thank you, Durithill.

We might be able to do defensive spells. Defensive spells are good. Especially spells that defend multiple targets at once.

But I don't see them as any more proficient with armor and shields as wizards or sorcerers, and it seems like (traditionally) one proficiency sort of goes with the other. Then again, I've never been one for tradition. I don't know.

I think I'll fill in the hole at second level, though. Magnor Criol suggested allowing the healer to take care of itself, so I think I'll add automatic stabalization at second level. Or maybe something letting it survive with hitpoints lower than -9, based on its healer level? Like, the positive energy flowing through his veins keeps him going... sort of like a divine defibrilator/bypass.

throtecutter
2007-12-31, 02:11 PM
The problem with the d4 hit dice is that this character would be on the front lines until level 10. That means with a 5 foot step will face a lot of full attacks.

I thought he should have invisibility since it is really only useful when healing and summoning.

Also, I was thinking about this last night, and what would be cool(it might be a bit overpowered) would be a short term contingency ability. If the healer casts a defensive spell, which is one below their highest spell level, on themselves he could delay the spell until a specific condition was met or level/round passed. Even if the condition is not met, the spell and any components are wasted. ( I hope this make sense)

Abjurer
2007-12-31, 02:23 PM
You mean, like, delayed spells. That would be an interesting metamagic feat...

Invisibility's not what I originally saw in his arsenal. Because I don't want the healer to be an offensive buff-caster. Then again, it's really more of a protection buff than an physical buff, so it might be fine. And cast on himself, I see where you're going. Things like fly or protection spells don't seem like they'd be too bad either.

I have to go for a bit, but when I come back I'll add some new defensive spells.

Lady Tialait
2007-12-31, 02:28 PM
This class has almost no defencive ability. seeing how it's to be a front line healer, I would atleast give it something like Sancuary on it's spell list (if not a supernatural abilty) Basicly Red Cross 'You don't attack the Healer' kinda thing.

In addion I think there should be some special positive energy aura or somesuch they could pull by useing spellslots....just an idea.

Abjurer
2007-12-31, 03:02 PM
It has sanctuary already. And I'm adding more.

Durithill the B
2007-12-31, 04:37 PM
Some spells I thought worth mentioning. Some are defensive in nature:

(From Book of Exalted Deeds)
1st level:
Second Wind: Target gains the equivalent of the Endurance feat for 1 hour/level.

2nd level:
Ease Pain: Remove lingering effects of pain.
Estanna's Stew: Conjures stew that heals 1d6+1 per serving.
Remove Addiction: Cures target of drug addictions.
Moment of Clarity: Target immediatly makes a new saving throw to resist a mind-affecting spell or effect.

3rd level:
Refreshment: Cures all nonlethal damage on one creature.
Heart's Ease: Removes fear, despair, confusion, insanity and some mind-influencing effects; restores 2d4 points of temporary Wisdom damage.
Remove Nausea: Cure a nauseated of sickened character.

4th level:
Blood of the Martyr: You heal a target at range and take a like amount of damage.
Glory of the Martyr: As shield other, but with multiple targets
Greater Status: As status, but cast some spells through bond.
Remove Fatigue: Removes effects of fatigue as 8 hours of rest.
Sustain: Recipients need no food or drink for 6 hours/level.

5th level:
Chaav's Laugh: Good creatures gain +2 on attack rolls and saves against fear, plus 1d8 temporary hp +1/level (max. +20). Evil creatures take a -2 on attack rolls and saves against fear.
Convert Wand: Transforms a magic wand into a healing wand (lasts 1 minute/level).
Energetic Healing: Target is immune to one energy type and gains 10% of the energy damage as healing.
Warding Gems: Creates gems that store healing energy, encircle the target, and release their healing power on command.

6th level:
Starmantle: Cloak of stars destroys nonmagical weapons on contact and allows wearer a DC 15 reflex save to reduce damage from magic weapons by half.

7th level:
Bastion of Good: Acts as minor globe of invulnerability and double-strength magic circle against evil.
Shield of the Archons: Protective shield dissipates targeted magical attacks and grants +4 bonus on saving throws against magical areas and effects.

8th level:
Spread of Contentment: Calms hostile creatures within 10-ft./level radius.

9th level:
Sublime Revelry: Targets immune to pain and mind-influencing effects, and take half damage from melee and ranged attacks.


(From Complete Adventurer)
2nd level:
Healing Lorecall: If you have 5 or more ranks in Heal, you can remove harmful conditions with conjuration (healing) spells.

3rd level:
Hymn of Praise: Add +2 caster levels to all good divine casters within range.


(From Complete Scoundrel)
1st level:
Healer's Vision: Gain a +5 bonus on Heal checks, and +2 attack and damage on sneak attacks.

3rd level:
Disobedience: Subject is shielded from mind control.

5th level:
Evacuation Rune: Create invisible rune that you can teleport to as a swift action.


(From Player's Handbook II)
1st level:
Invest Light Protection: Heal 1d4 damage + 1/2 levels, grant DR 1/evil.

2nd level:
Blade Brothers: Use higher saving throw result between two creatures, but both suffer effects if the saves fail.
Insight of Good Fortune: Subject rolls twice, takes best result.
Stay the Hand: Change subject creature's attitude to helpful for 1 round.

3rd level:
Alter Fortune: Cause one creature to reroll ny die roll.
Channeled Divine Shield: Gain DR, amount based on casting time.
Crown of Protection: +1 deflection bonus to AC, +1 resistence bonus on saves; discharge to gain +4 for 1 round.
Invest Moderate Protection: Heal 3d4 damage + 1/2 levels, grant DR 3/evil.

4th level:
Channeled Divine Health: Heal a creature, amount and range base on casting time.
Healing Spirit: Ball of light heals 1d8/round.

5th level:
Invest Heavy Protection: Heal 5d4 damage + 1/2 levels, grant DR 5/evil.
Magical Convalescence: Spells cast nearby heal you 1 hp/spell level.
Renewed Vigor: Remove fatigue and +2 bonus to Constitution for 1 round/level.

8th level:
Visions of the Future: +2 sacred bonus on saves, +2 dodge bonus to AC; discharge spell to gain bonus equal to half caster level.

If you have questions about any of the spells, feel free to ask.

Magnor Criol
2007-12-31, 09:32 PM
I....I'm not sure if you can post those, Durithill. All of those books are, as far as I know, not covered under the Open Gaming Lisence, and thus posting material from them like that here is technically illegal.

(Most of those would be good spells, though.)

Fako
2007-12-31, 10:18 PM
I....I'm not sure if you can post those, Durithill. All of those books are, as far as I know, not covered under the Open Gaming Lisence, and thus posting material from them like that here is technically illegal.

(Most of those would be good spells, though.)

I may be wrong on this, but IIRC, it only violates the OGL if you post the entire spell (including full description).

I personally like the class (I normally play a NG "band-aid" cleric), but I agree its underpowered. The problem (as I can see) is that it dies in only a few hits on the front lines. I have a few suggestions...

---Class Abilities---
Healer's Edge: The healer specializes in healing their allies, and as such, their spells are more potent than other casters at the same level. They can add their WIS modifier as a bonus on any spell they cast that heals HP. (Example: Cure Light Wounds at CL 5+ would heal 1D8 + 5 + WIS)

Golden Vigor: At 5th level, the Healer has cast so many healing spells that healing energy is forever running through his veins. Whenever he falls below half his maximum hit points, he gains Fast Healing 1. This fast healing can never heal him above half his maximum health. At 10th level, and every 5 levels thereafter, the Fast Healing granted by Golden Vigor increases by 1.

Defensive Knack: The healer is so used to being on the front lines that he has developed a "sixth sense" towards incoming attacks. While wearing no armor or shield, he may add his wisdom modifier to his AC. This bonus is lost whenever the healer would be denied his dexterity to his AC.

---Feats---
Mobile Healer
Prereqs: Healer 6, Wis 15+
Benefits: You have specialized in moving in, healing, and moving away before the enemies can kill you. You may move before and after casting a spell with the [healing] descriptor, though you may only move up to your normal land speed in a single round. Your movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.
Normal: Normally you may only move before or after casting any spell.

Those are just my ideas... feel free to use all/none if you wish :smallsmile:

Xuincherguixe
2008-01-01, 07:59 AM
For the extra skills...

Diplomacy is already there. A case could be made for Bluff, as could intimidate. Though it makes for a much more shady sort of healer. Sure they not be big and tough, but knowing exactly where to stab someone so that it'll take awhile for them to die has to count for something right?

Survival too seems like a good one.

MandibleBones
2008-01-01, 10:12 AM
Addressing both the extra skills and the "Oh Gods, the healer is on the front lines without HP! HAX!" arguments, what about adding Tumble as a class skill? You've already got the class without armor, and training to get in and out of danger to heal a party member without getting hit yourself seems like a valid addition to the healer's daily regimen.

Kish
2008-01-01, 10:20 AM
Yes, I did. A chaotic cleric would never heal people. I mean, what reason does a divine caster have to cast divine spells if he's chaotic? Probably to incite chaos. And if that's your goal, why on earth would you specialize (exclusively) in healing?
That has all the validity of saying that a Lawful cleric would never heal people because that doesn't restrict their freedom. You're not sticking with 3.5ed, you're sticking with original D&D-no-A and chaos=evil. Ah well.

Durithill the B
2008-01-01, 03:08 PM
All of those books are, as far as I know, not covered under the Open Gaming Lisence, and thus posting material from them like that here is technically illegal.
Really? I had no idea...

Abjurer
2008-01-01, 05:24 PM
Um... I don't think it's an issue. Like, if you were posting content straight from the books it would be a problem, but saying "these spells are in such-and-such a book and this is what they do" shouldn't be a problem. I don't know, I could be wrong.

Magnor Criol
2008-01-01, 06:31 PM
I think Fako's right and I was wrong; as long as he's not putting up the actual spell descriptions with full mechanics, it's probably fine. I wasn't thinking about it that way.

Fako's ability suggestions are, I think, all good ideas, as is adding Tumble as a class skill. They make sense fluffwise, they're mechanically sound without being overpowered, and they're definitely good tools for keeping the Healer alive in the fray.

Durithill the B
2008-01-01, 06:32 PM
Well that is technically straight from the books...

And I agree as well that adding tumble is a good suggestion. Most likely healers are going to have higher Dex scores anyway (so they don't die), so it makes a little sense they should have some Dex related skills.
Like Use Rope could be used when making splints and stuff.

Abjurer
2008-01-02, 09:29 PM
Alright, tumble it is. I don't generally ask for use rope checks as healing, though. Not feeling that one so much. Let's leave it to the rogue. We could add survival. I like the idea of a healer knowing which leaves make the best improvised bandages.

Healer's edge is like the opposite of the warmage ability. As if the healer wasn't good enough already at healing, it now gets better. I like it. Should we limit it to, like, "up to his caster level" or something? Like, a third level healer with a wisdom of 18 only gets +3 hit points to heal spells. Might not be necessary.

Anything with fast healing is good, because I'm starting to see my healer as a catalyst for positive energy. Healing magic is constantly flowing through the healer's veins, and it seems like that would have a positive effect on him. This also covers the stabalization thing, because when he gains a hit point back, he stabalizes.

Defensive knack is nice too. I like that he can get out of the way if need be. Do you think I should add something like evasion as well?

The feat is good. I'll probably add mobility as an additional prerequisite, but healers should have that anyway.

Those spells are very nice. I think I'll borrow a few of them.
The one that strikes me the most is a refreshment, a third-level spell that completely removes nonlethal damage. Suddenly, fifth-level troll clerics are the most powerful creatures in the world. :smalleek: Moment of clarity is nice, too. With enough third-level clerics, you can make any save. :smallbiggrin:

Evacuation rune might lead to some nice loopholes as well. Can you, perchance, have more than one rune functioning at a time? Broken or not, though, that's a good spell for my healer.

Nice list, thanks. And to everyone else who offered suggestions.


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EDIT: Okay, it's updated. And looking mighty fine, if I do say so myself.
By the way, nice avatar Durithill. :smalltongue: I have a problem with his neck, though...
I might have to work on that during the weekend sometime.

Any more suggestions for the Healer?

Fako
2008-01-03, 11:55 PM
Yay! All my suggestions were useful! :smallbiggrin:

As for restricting healer's edge, I see no need, as the Warmage doesn't have a cap on it.

You also had a question about his spell list...Personally, I'd say give him access to all spells of any level he can cast. You can compare this to Dread Necromancer and Warmage when it comes to spellcasting, and neither worries about spells known...

And I had another idea for a feat...I think it's balanced, but up to you.

Healing Breeze [Metamagic]
Prerequisites: Healing Reach, Heal 8 ranks, Spellcraft 8 ranks
Benefit: This feat can only be applied to a spell with the [healing] descriptor that has a range of Touch. When applied, the range of the spell is increased to Close (25' + 1/2' per level) as you force your Healing Reach beyond its normal limits. However, modifying Healing Reach like this is difficult at best, and as such no other bonuses (such as Practiced Healer or Healer's Edge) apply to any spell modified this way. A Healing Breeze spell uses a spell slot one higher than the spell's normal level.
Special: Because of their strict focus, a Healer may use Healing Breeze without increasing the spell's casting time.

Abjurer
2008-01-04, 03:40 PM
Awesome, I like it. I changed it slightly and added it to the list.

Also, Healer's edge isn't restricted. But the defensive ability is.

Fako
2008-01-04, 08:54 PM
Awesome, I like it. I changed it slightly and added it to the list.

Also, Healer's edge isn't restricted. But the defensive ability is.

Your wording is better... and I noticed the restriction on the defensive ability. I think it fits.

I also had (yet another) feat idea, this one as an alternative to Tumble...

Parley [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Charisma 15+, Diplomacy 8 ranks, Skill Focus (Diplomacy)
Benefit: People say that actions speak louder than words; you know it's just the opposite. At the start of battle, you habitually inform the enemy that you are not a threat, you're just there to make sure people stay alive, etc. All intelligent enemies that can hear you and share a language with you must make a Will Save (DC 10 + 1/2 your ranks in Diplomacy + your CHA modifier) or be unable to make attacks of opportunity against you. They may still target you and attack you as normal. This effect is broken if you deal any damage to anyone under the effects of Parley. This is a language-dependent, mind-affecting effect.
Normal: Asking someone to not kill you is only more reason for you to die.

Durithill the B
2008-01-05, 12:23 PM
Normal: Asking someone to not kill you is only more reason for you to die.
It's funny because it's true, lol.

Abjurer
2008-01-05, 02:04 PM
Haha, that's awesome. I really wanted something like that, but I didn't know how to make it work short of sanctuary. The problem I see with it is that it doesn't make much sense unless you do actually parlay with your enemies before the battle. I mean, they're not going to slow down in their charge to pay attention to you... or we could just say it doesn't work on raging oppponents? Then again, with skill focus and eight ranks, that makes for at least a +13 to diplomacy checks, which is pretty good. And I really like the idea of healers as party negotiators and unbiased voices.

Otherwise, though, another most excellent piece of work. Thanks again.
This feat would make for brilliant awesome NPCs, too. I want to make a Lawful Neutral NPC healer who just gravitates between battles and heals anyone (s)he sees wounded. It would really aggrivate and mess up evil characters, and the good ones would probably end up protecting the healer.

Maybe I should start coming up with stuff too; you gents are, like, taking over...

Fako
2008-01-05, 08:51 PM
Haha, that's awesome. I really wanted something like that, but I didn't know how to make it work short of sanctuary. The problem I see with it is that it doesn't make much sense unless you do actually parlay with your enemies before the battle. I mean, they're not going to slow down in their charge to pay attention to you... or we could just say it doesn't work on raging oppponents? Then again, with skill focus and eight ranks, that makes for at least a +13 to diplomacy checks, which is pretty good. And I really like the idea of healers as party negotiators and unbiased voices.

Otherwise, though, another most excellent piece of work. Thanks again.
This feat would make for brilliant awesome NPCs, too. I want to make a Lawful Neutral NPC healer who just gravitates between battles and heals anyone (s)he sees wounded. It would really aggrivate and mess up evil characters, and the good ones would probably end up protecting the healer.

Maybe I should start coming up with stuff too; you gents are, like, taking over...

I personally think that a raging person would simply overlook them, since the healer loses the benefits of the feat if he does anything agressive...

And I prefer the term "augmenting" :smallbiggrin:

Kai-Palin
2008-01-05, 09:22 PM
Once upon a time, I had made a non-cleric healer PrC, its in my sig should you wish to see it.

Two abilities that I created for it, though, might be good to include with a base class:

Natural Healer (Ex): At 4th level and higher, the Warder can apply his/her knowledge of natural remedies to make his non-magical healing abilities much more effective against poisons and diseases. The Warder may make a Knowledge (Nature) check of DC equal to the save DC of the poison or disease currently affecting an adjacent subject the Warder is examining. This examination and Knowledge check requires 1 full-round action. If the check succeeds, the Warder can make a heal check against the same DC reduced by 1/3 (rounded up) and cure the disease or neutralize the poison. This curing requires one use of a healing kit (or take the normal penalty for working without a healer's kit, plus an additional -4 penalty for lack of the augmented materials in a Natural Healer's kit.) and three consecutive full-round actions.

Preserver's Shield (Su): At 5th level, the Warder gains an ability usable once per day as an immediate action. At tenth level, this ability is usable twice per day. He or she can either:

a. Grant one ally within medium range the effect of a "Close Wounds" spell and DR 5/-- until the end of the target's next turn

b. Grant one ally withing medium range a bonus on all saving throws equal to 1/2 the Warder's caster level. This effect also doubles the bonus to each saving throw the target gains from their attributes (for example, a target with a Wis of 14 would have a +4 bonus for his Wis bonus to his Will saves).
These abilities are usable as immediate actions, so they are predominantly used to save an ally who has just bin hit a blow that would normally kill him, or who has just failed a save against a save-or-die effect. The Warder cannot grant himself this bonus.

I'm thinking that the Natural Healer ability would be a good one for 11th or
16th level.

Abjurer
2008-01-06, 08:51 PM
That's a huge increase to saves, once you get to high levels. And it doesn't have a duration; I assume it's until the end of his turn or until discharged, but still... then again, I can see the healer following the party rogue around, ready to fling spells at him as soon as he sets off a trap. A close wounds + DR 5/- for one round is kind of cool; maybe I'll add it as a spell...

The natural healing thing is alright, but I'll edit it a bit if I actually get around to adding it. I definitely saw this character as being able to pull off the medicine (wo)man thing. You know, the little old (wo)man living alone in a forest being sought by wounded and abandoned soldiers, folks afflicted with lycanthropy, desperate lovers, etc. This ability could probably be pulled off as a feat, too, seeing as the table is getting pretty filled up.

Durithill the B
2008-01-10, 09:10 PM
I just thought of an ability. A high level one. Something like...

Touch of Life:
Once a week, a healer may touch a corpse and return that person to life as if by a true ressurrection spell.