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JMobius
2007-12-29, 02:51 PM
As I skim through sourcebooks, the list of PrCs seems nigh endless, and yet among them very few seem cool enough, either in concept or mechanics, that I'd ever consider taking them. To pick out the *worst* one, though, seems a very difficult task. So, in your experience, what is the worst PrC you've ever seen, from any official source? "Worst" being either a very poor or lame concept, or simply being mechanically crappy. :)

SurlySeraph
2007-12-29, 02:58 PM
Hmm... I'll post more after thinking about it more, though a few leap to mind.

Shadowdancer is kinda entirely useless after 1st level.

Horizon Walker is only useful if you travel through a whole lot of different environments, including different planes, and your DM is very strict about making survival checks and the effects of terrain and planar traits.

There are dozens of prestige classes that are basically "Paladin, but with slightly different class features." The vast majority of them are unnecessary.

Kurald Galain
2007-12-29, 06:15 PM
Mindbender is likewise kind of pointless after first level.

I can think of numerous wizard or cleric prestige classes that lose far too many caster levels to be worth it.

I've always found Fatespinner a bit silly considering those "spin points" really don't do all that much, except of course for the capstone ability.

Arcane Archer is really very bad.

Dragon Disciple isn't nearly as good as it looks either, but it keeps the dragon fanbois happy :smallsmile:

Dwarven Defender is simply awful because it aggravates the mobility problems that fighters already have.

kpenguin
2007-12-29, 06:17 PM
Actually, Horizon Walker is okay because of its ability to DM every 1d4 rounds.

I'd say Hierophant. A full caster only prestige class that gives no casting levels? :smallsigh:

EvilElitest
2007-12-29, 06:19 PM
Hmm... I'll post more after thinking about it more, though a few leap to mind.

Shadowdancer is kinda entirely useless after 1st level.

Horizon Walker is only useful if you travel through a whole lot of different environments, including different planes, and your DM is very strict about making survival checks and the effects of terrain and planar traits.

There are dozens of prestige classes that are basically "Paladin, but with slightly different class features." The vast majority of them are unnecessary.

Grey Guards as written are awful, but tweaking them fo that they are Neutral or evil paladins while still having smite is great
from,
EE

bingo_bob
2007-12-29, 06:33 PM
Survivor, from Savage Species. No BAB. And your class abilities... well, let's just say they improve your combat prowess about as much as the class improves your BAB.

Serenity
2007-12-29, 06:38 PM
And, to make it worse, the class abilities do not, in fact, reflect anything the fluff claims the class is supposed to do.

Saph
2007-12-29, 06:40 PM
Horizon Walker is actually worth it, if only for the shifting ability. At-will Dimension Door is a good thing.

Arcane Archer, on the other hand, is awful. Awful awful awful. It's a holdover from 3.0 when arrow enhancement bonuses and bow enhancement bonuses stacked. Since in 3.5 they don't, the entire primary ability of the class is utterly worthless, since your bow will nearly always be powerful enough to negate the arrow enhancement. The special arrows generally suck too, and the capstone ability, Arrow of Death, forces a DC 20 fort save at a level where enemy monsters pretty much all have fort saves of +18 or better.

- Saph

Aquillion
2007-12-29, 06:48 PM
The dimension door is the main reason to take the class, but some builds make good use of Horizon Walker's immunity to fatigue in combination with fatiguing abilities like a barbarian's rage. And Tremorsense can be useful, too... there are certainly worse PRCs out there.

Rachel Lorelei
2007-12-29, 06:51 PM
Horizon Walker, like people said, is only useless if you don't read it! Immunity to fatigue, Tremorsense, and Dimension Door every 1d4 rounds! are good abilities; Ranger/Fighter/Barbarian/Horizon Walker is my favorite core melee build (well, favorite that isn't a divine spellcaster).

Kurald Galain
2007-12-29, 07:01 PM
Horizon Walker is quite terrible. That would probably get my vote.

Hm, that wasn't really the class I was thinking about. Yep, dimdooring is cute. I believe I was confusing this with something else.

Xefas
2007-12-29, 07:27 PM
Several of the BoVD PrCs are rather inane. The Demonologist, for instance, is a caster class with no caster progression, and one could do essentially the same thing with the same flavor by going straight caster. Not to mention things like the Malconvoker...

Disciple of Mammon and such are also pretty useless, so far as I've seen.

Admiral Squish
2007-12-29, 07:33 PM
I saw the reach runner prestige class, and think it's the most pointless class ever. A couple weak skill bonuses, a five-foot speed increase, nature's stride, which you probably have considering the fluff puts you as a ranger beforehand anyway, Swift tracker, another few barely useful bonuses, one bonus feat and a rarely useful crown ability. All in all, pointless, you can spend five levels in a lot of better ways.

Kurald Galain
2007-12-29, 07:35 PM
Several of the BoVD PrCs are rather inane. The Demonologist, for instance, is a caster class with no caster progression, and one could do essentially the same thing with the same flavor by going straight caster.

Oh yeah... there's this "reformed warlock" prestige class that does the same things a regular warlock does, only less so...

SadisticFishing
2007-12-29, 07:40 PM
Sorry to change the topic, but the Reforged is clearly the best PrC in the game (Races of Eberron).

shaka gl
2007-12-29, 07:44 PM
Mindbender is likewise kind of pointless after first level.

I recently used one as a villain and worked really good. Why do you say that?

Admiral Squish
2007-12-29, 07:47 PM
Sorry to change the topic, but the Reforged is clearly the best PrC in the game (Races of Eberron).

What? How? No, it's not. The best thing it gives you is the new selection of feats at the end, and you'd get more of those as a human anyway.

bugsysservant
2007-12-29, 07:49 PM
I recently used one as a villain and worked really good. Why do you say that?

For PCs its pretty crappy, mostly stemming from its half caster progression. If you really want to play a domination type, be a diplomancer. Or cleric 1/wizard 19 and DMM persist dominate person at the start of every day. Or get a cohort. Seriously, it's capstone is mediocre, and the ability to have people your friend can be done by a low level bard, without the number limit.

Orzel
2007-12-29, 07:51 PM
Thief-acrobat

5 levels to waste away your combat skills to gain the ability to sneak into a safe, get caught, and die.

HWs is the best core noncaster prc, man. Full BAB, d8 HD, nice skill list, Immunity to fatigue, DDoor every 1d4 round, Tremorsence, skill bonuses, and insightbonuses, and darkvision? What's not to love?

The_Snark
2007-12-29, 07:59 PM
The Enlightened Soul? That one's decent, actually; the lack of flexibility is really irritating, but if you waited a while to enter, you end up with a better eldritch blast. And it gives some abilities a standard warlock doesn't get (the fear aura, for example).

There are several from the Completes that were very unexciting in just about every way. The Dark Hunter and Knight Protector from Complete Warrior, the Dungeon Delver and Vigilante from Complete Adventurer... bleh.

The Tempest is good in theory (a class focused around making a slightly weak fighting style better), but its execution is terrible. For some reason, it revolves around Spring Attack, which is not only a mediocre tactic, but which doesn't work with your chosen style of fighting until you finish out the class... and even then, it's only back up to mediocre.

I like the Spymaster and Entropomancer in theory, but in execution they're rather weak.

(Also, Persisted Dominate Person? You know how ludicrously pointless that is? You're actually reducing the duration...)

marjan
2007-12-29, 08:07 PM
What's this? No True Necromancer yet. Blasphemy I say.:smallmad:

Also I find Darkwood Stalker pretty useless. By the time you qualify for it all orcs in your campaign world are dead anyway.:smalltongue:

bugsysservant
2007-12-29, 08:24 PM
(Also, Persisted Dominate Person? You know how ludicrously pointless that is? You're actually reducing the duration...)

Oops, forgot about that. 'Course that only makes my point more valid, but who's paying attention anyway. :smalltongue:

Ganurath
2007-12-29, 08:32 PM
Dwarven Defender. If you meet the prerequisites ASAP, you're doing something horribly wrong.

Fax Celestis
2007-12-29, 08:36 PM
Four words: Shining Blade of Heironeous.

Let's give up the good things about progressing as a Paladin (spellcasting, smites) so I can turn my sword pink a few times a day. Hooray.

Falrin
2007-12-29, 08:37 PM
Name escapes me, but the "Demonskin"-PrC from complete arcane.

bugsysservant
2007-12-29, 08:38 PM
Four words: Shining Blade of Heironeous.

Let's give up the good things about progressing as a Paladin (spellcasting, smites) so I can turn my sword pink a few times a day. Hooray.

Hey, SCREW YOU!

some of us like pink

Zenos
2007-12-29, 08:38 PM
Name escapes me, but the "Demonskin"-PrC from complete arcane.

Acolyte of the Skin.

marjan
2007-12-29, 08:38 PM
Name escapes me, but the "Demonskin"-PrC from complete arcane.

Acolyte of the Skin?

Edit: ninja'ed... few posts ago.:smallmad:

Armads
2007-12-29, 08:40 PM
Survivor. You don't qualify for the class after you take a few levels in it.

marjan
2007-12-29, 08:40 PM
so I can turn my sword pink a few times a day. Hooray.

If that doesn't make enemies run away what will?

marjan
2007-12-29, 08:41 PM
Survivor. You don't qualify for the class after you take a few levels in it.

And has the dumbest requirement that I have seen so far: Your best base save has to be lower than your lvl. WTF?

Fax Celestis
2007-12-29, 08:42 PM
Hey, SCREW YOU!

some of us like pink
And some of us like being mechanically sound. :smallbiggrin:

Tengu
2007-12-29, 08:50 PM
Survivor. You don't qualify for the class after you take a few levels in it.


And has the dumbest requirement that I have ever seen so far: Your best base save has to be lower than your lvl. WTF?

If those were the only thing that are stupid about this class there'd be nothing wrong with it and only people of the "RAW doesn't say you cannot start with 6 arms, so you can!" sort would have any problems with it. But the bad thing about the class is that it's completely useless - you get slightly better at staying alive, and that's it.

And to actually contribute to the thread - Rage Mage. A gish class that has medium BAB and half spellcasting, and whose treadmark ability is to cast and rage at the same time. Colour me unimpressed.

marjan
2007-12-29, 08:58 PM
you get slightly better at staying alive, and that's it.

The biggest problem is that you don't. Not with d6 as HD.

UserClone
2007-12-29, 09:22 PM
Eldritch Knight. The Knight Phantom (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4) does exactly the same thing, but with class features other than a single bonus feat. The only downside? You have to know how to cast phantom steed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/phantomSteed.htm), a frikkin' useful spell, and one of my favorites.

de-trick
2007-12-29, 09:37 PM
frenzy beserker- just not a team player type of guy after you take it.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2007-12-29, 09:45 PM
frenzy beserker- just not a team player type of guy after you take it.

Surprisingly, the effect is quite avoidable. You just have to prepare for it. The FB is mechanically, and (sad to say) munchkin-ly (yes that is a word, now) one of the better prCs.

now... useless? the Fochlucan Lyrist (Complete Adv) Horrifying prereqs, and the ability to wear light metal armor as a Druid. Woo-hoo. Only bonus is full caster progression, which is kinda cool... but again... prereqs are terrifying. It's just not worth it.

marjan
2007-12-29, 10:01 PM
Eldritch Knight. The Knight Phantom (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4) does exactly the same thing, but with class features other than a single bonus feat. The only downside? You have to know how to cast phantom steed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/phantomSteed.htm), a frikkin' useful spell, and one of my favorites.

Phantom knight requires silent spell as one of prerequisites which combined with lack of bonus feat puts you down by two feats when compared to EK, is campaign specific and has special prerequisite which is not something every gish can meet. So EK is not completly useless and sometimes is better or only choice you have.

Armads
2007-12-29, 10:08 PM
now... useless? the Fochlucan Lyrist (Complete Adv) Horrifying prereqs, and the ability to wear light metal armor as a Druid. Woo-hoo. Only bonus is full caster progression, which is kinda cool... but again... prereqs are terrifying. It's just not worth it.

Fochlucan Lyrist is awesome when combined with Illumian Ur-Priest/Sublime Chords

tyckspoon
2007-12-29, 10:15 PM
Phantom knight requires silent spell as one of prerequisites which combined with lack of bonus feat puts you down by two feats when compared to EK, is campaign specific and has special prerequisite which is not something every gish can meet. So EK is not completly useless and sometimes is better or only choice you have.

Eldritch Knight features a poor hit die, poor skills, and drops a caster level at the first level in trade for a Fighter bonus feat (which if you wanted, you got with the level of Fighter you might have taken to get martial proficiency). Beyond that, it has no real features. Almost every gishing PrC published since the core books is superior to the Eldritch Knight in one or more of these areas; with all of the later and superior gish options to choose from, there really isn't much good reason to pick Eldritch Knight unless your build options are severely constrained.

Hawriel
2007-12-29, 10:20 PM
The Human Paragon three level PRC from UA. It sucks. OK at third level I get +2 to any stat big deal but the PRC is made for wizards or clerics. +1 spell level and 2 skill points. very limiting for being a paragon PRC for a race that can shine in any class.

Armads
2007-12-29, 10:24 PM
Human Paragon's used for the free class skills and the bonus feat. It's not really that bad.

Kaelik
2007-12-29, 10:26 PM
The Human Paragon three level PRC from UA. It sucks. OK at third level I get +2 to any stat big deal but the PRC is made for wizards or clerics. +1 spell level and 2 skill points. very limiting for being a paragon PRC for a race that can shine in any class.

Limiting, but a great Gish class. Also, slightly important, Paragons are regular classes, not PrCs.

Ganurath
2007-12-29, 10:28 PM
Human Paragon's used for the free class skills and the bonus feat. It's not really that bad.Samurai is a bit more viable with UMD as a class skill.

ZeroNumerous
2007-12-29, 10:31 PM
Acolyte of the Skin.

This one is actually good for a Warlock progressing into Hellfire Warlock to make up for the EB-damage loss.

The Vorpal Tribble
2007-12-29, 10:37 PM
Storm Disciple from Complete Psionic is by far the worst I've ever seen.

Not only does it have pathetic abilities, but the theme is so bad it makes me see red.

It is a PSIONIC class somehow despite the fact that you have a connection with storms.

Here is what you get if you go through the whole class:

#1. You deal 1 extra point of electrical damage on every attack.
#2. Resistance to electricity 5
#3. Your weapon gains the Thundering special ability.
#4. You become unaffected by wind.

That is IT! AND you lose manifester levels for this.

It has nothing to do with psionics, you get nothing to compensate for losing your manifest levels, AND its boring as watching a paraplegic golf tournament.

Cuddly
2007-12-29, 10:44 PM
Storm Disciple from Complete Psionic is by far the worst I've ever seen.

Not only does it have pathetic abilities, but the theme is so bad it makes me see red.

It is a PSIONIC class somehow despite the fact that you have a connection with storms.

Here is what you get if you go through the whole class:

#1. You deal 1 extra point of electrical damage on every attack.
#2. Resistance to electricity 5
#3. Your weapon gains the Thundering special ability.
#4. You become unaffected by wind.

That is IT! AND you lose manifester levels for this.

It has nothing to do with psionics, you get nothing to compensate for losing your manifest levels, AND its boring as watching a paraplegic golf tournament.

There was an X-Files episode there there was a woman whose moods affected the weather. I can see psions doing stuff with storms. Why let divine casters have all the fun?

purplearcanist
2007-12-29, 10:47 PM
Looking at the DMG, there are a couple of choices. I will go over some of them to see if they are bad or not:

1. Arcane Archer - All of the abilities, with the possible exception of Imbue Arrow, are useless. You also need to get all of these archery feats and take a level in spellcasting. Lame.
2. Dragon Disciple - This prestiege class is not that bad if you only take 1 level of sorcerer and the rest some warrior class. A warrior should love permanent bonuses to strength and constitution, a little natural armor, a d12 hit die, flight, blindsense, and other goodies. But considering that warriors start to suck, maybe this prestiege class also sucks.
3. Dwarven Defender - Considering that Defensive Stance, the classes main ability, is useless, don't take it.
4. Eldritch Knight - If you are going full wizard, the sacrifice of the two casting levels are not worth the benefits. If you are being a fighter/wizard, your build pales to the pure wizard, even with this class.
5. Hierophant - Because this class blocks your acquisition of spellcasting, and it is a full casting class, it is totally useless.
6. Mystic Theurge - The Logic Ninja has an "It's a trap" picture, and that is literally what this class is.
7. Shadowdancer - past the hide in plain sight ability, many of the class abilities are useless, such as shadow jump.

marjan
2007-12-29, 10:52 PM
4. Eldritch Knight - If you are going full wizard, the sacrifice of the two casting levels are not worth the benefits. If you are being a fighter/wizard, your build pales to the pure wizard, even with this class.


By that reasoning every class that is not pure wizard is useless. In gish builds EK has its uses especialy if you don't use complete mage. One lvl of spellcasting is not going to kill your gish considering that you get better BA and HP than wizard which is important to gishes as much as CL.

The_Snark
2007-12-29, 10:53 PM
Oh, that reminds me—the Metamind. It's a class that revolves around having more psionic power, which is hardly an enthralling concept, and in execution... you give up manifester levels for the ability to manifest lower-level powers for free a few times per day.

lose about 107 power points for taking the class all the way up to 10th level; if your manifester level is 10th, you're getting a maximum of 90 power points out of the free powers, plus 11 points out of the cognizance crystal... 101. Plus the lost PP from having a high ability score. The capstone ability is nice, but it's only good for one short-ish encounter.

In perfect fairness, those lower-level powers can be fully augmented, meaning that if you got Practiced Manifester, you actually do end up being able to use more effective power points (151 total)... but only at level 15. As you get higher-level, the problem only keeps getting worse. And any way you look at it, you're still giving up higher-level powers and the ability to fully augment your lower-level ones.

The other prestige classes in that book were all reasonably interesting and at least somewhat well-made, too, so it stands out.

Fax Celestis
2007-12-29, 11:12 PM
There was an X-Files episode there there was a woman whose moods affected the weather. I can see psions doing stuff with storms. Why let divine casters have all the fun?

Which'd be awesome, if that were what it did. Instead, it's a class that doesn't do what the people who would take it want it to do, isn't very strong, and doesn't fit with the rest of psionic classes thematically.

mabriss lethe
2007-12-30, 12:49 AM
Yeah, I've always been a bit disappointed with the shadowdancer. If it had even a partial sneak attack progression or 8+ int skills or something, it would make it so much more useful. Flavorwise, you'd think rogue would be a great choice to go all the way through the class, but a rogue loses so much from taking the class. Ranger does...so-so as a Shadowdancer but they lose BAB and and for what they get in return, would be better off taking levels of Rogue. Monk, believe it or not, is about the only class that improves with the taking...and that's sad. A level is all you really need.

Horizon walker is pretty freaking sweet, btw. Nifty abilities, (who doesn't want Dimension Door every 4 rounds?)a good range of pretty hefty skill bonuses. The attack bonus is pretty neat at higher levels but requires a load of book keeping by both DM and player to keep straight.

I remember reading the Survivor in Savage Species... what a waste.

CasESenSITItiVE
2007-12-30, 12:57 AM
my vote definently goes towards the heirophant. not only are we losing caster levels, but the special abilities that replace them are terrible.

for instance, though divine reach is okay, the bonus is quite small if we look at the level someone would be able to qualify at. the only two other to special abilities worth mentioning are faith healing and blast infidel. they look decent at first, then you read that faith healing works only on people with your exact alignment, and blast infidel works only on those with your exact opposite alignment

CASTLEMIKE
2007-12-30, 01:45 AM
The Greenstar Adept from CA loses 5 levels of spellcasting if taken for 10 levels. The Risen Martyr from BoED. The Skylord from BoED is awfully specialized and also loses a caster 5 levels of spellcasting if pursued for 10 levels. The Divine Agent form MotP loses 5 caster levels.

Talic
2007-12-30, 01:59 AM
Sea Witch from either Scarred Lands: Relics and Rituals, or from Ultimate Prestige Classes.

I believe there's a Hearth Mage as well, that has almost 0 playability unless you're an NPC.

Kurald Galain
2007-12-30, 05:17 AM
The Human Paragon three level PRC from UA. It sucks.

Actually it's pretty useful in some builds. For instance, one level of HP will allow you to permanently get UMD as a class skill.

PlatinumJester
2007-12-30, 07:56 AM
The Suel Arcanamach from CArc is a festering turd of a class. You get crap spell progression and the only good class feature you have us Extended Spellstrength. You waste 10 levels do to what a Duskblade can do at level 5.

lord_khaine
2007-12-30, 08:08 AM
i would put my copper piece on either Hierophant, for reasons that have allready been stated here, or on the frenzied berserker, who is about the only class in the game that actualy gets a good excuse for killing off his own party.

Armads
2007-12-30, 08:11 AM
Hierophant has some place in Ur-Priest builds, due to the huge caster level boost. Frenzied berserker's frenzy can be ended with Iron Heart Surge, or a high enough will save (like, say, Cumbrous Will + Bull Headed + Steadfast Determination).

CactusAir
2007-12-30, 08:15 AM
Four words: Shining Blade of Heironeous.

Let's give up the good things about progressing as a Paladin (spellcasting, smites) so I can turn my sword pink a few times a day. Hooray.

This one wins it. Shining blade is pure suck. Arcane archer at least gives 1 useful ability.

Saph
2007-12-30, 09:41 AM
Yeah, I actually prefer Eldritch Knight to Knight Phantom. Take Improved Toughness with your Eldritch Knight bonus feat, and you immediately have more HP than the Knight Phantom, not to mention an extra feat that you don't have to waste on Still Spell.

Not that the Knight Phantom is a terrible class or anything, but the setting-specific and flavour-specific aspects of it make me prefer Eldritch Knight.

- Saph

Tengu
2007-12-30, 09:56 AM
Well, Knight Phantom can also cast in light armor... which puts it higher than Eldritch Knight in my book, because armored mages are just cool. Both classes are fairly on the same power level, though.

F.L.
2007-12-30, 10:20 AM
Gishes sometimes take the Spellsword PrC to lose some % of arcane spell failure, which doesn't stack with the free light armor casting of the Knight Phantom. Alternately, there's always mithril twilight armor, which has no ASF chance anyway. So the Eldritch Knight is still a choice, it's not inherently inferior to the KP.

On an unrelated note, can a KP take the Battle Caster feat to cast spells with no chance of failure in medium armor? Mithril Full Plate casting is always nice.

ghost_warlock
2007-12-30, 12:02 PM
On an unrelated note, can a KP take the Battle Caster feat to cast spells with no chance of failure in medium armor? Mithril Full Plate casting is always nice.

From my understanding, any class that gains an armored mage-type ability, such as bard or KP, can take Battlecaster to cast in better armor. Heck, after a certain point there's nothing to stop a warmage from taking it to cast in heavy armor. :smallsigh:

As a side note, Dragon Disciple is actually not too bad if you're taking it with a gestalt build like Hexblade/Dragon Disciple//Sorcerer. :smallamused:

Oh, and human paragon adds 2/3 caster levels, not 1/3. And, if you wanted to, you could always just use your bonus feat for Practiced Spellcaster. The Ability Boost and d8 HD might not be a terribly bad trade to a spellcaster for the caster level in any case. The bonus spells and increased spell DCs may not make up for the loss of 1 CL, but you could do a lot worse.

My "votes" for the three worst WotC PrCs: shining suck, metamind, arcane archer.

Larrin
2007-12-30, 12:46 PM
I love this type of thread, because my favorite (or rather least favorite) never gets mentioned (at least i didn't see it when i read the last three pages)

Thaumaturgist

Its the worst for a couple of reasons in my mind

1. no one ever remembers it, thinks of it, refers to it, or anything, despite the fact that its in the DMG! Its core, and no one pays it any attention. Its so worthless it doesn't even stick in poeples mind. No one hates this class, be cause no one can think about it for more than five secounds before its pure nothingness erases it from consideration

2. Its full caster progression, and yet no one i've seen has made a build using it. Maybe someone has, but its seldom. You'll see it in lists of full caster PrC's but it never scores high, despite its very simple prerequisites (4th level cleric spell, spell focus conjuration)

3. its abilities are not useless, for a summoner they're actually pretty good in many ways, but since you have to be a cleric to get 'planar ally, lesser' it only appeals to the Summoner Cleric comunity, which is really not the best use of anyones time. If a druid could be a thaumatergist i think it would see alot more air time. Thus its giving good summoning to a class thats not really needing it in general. There just isn't a demand/desire for this PrC.

Its not the worst PrC because it sucks so bad, but because its so unimpressive, undesired, and uninteresting that despite its core location, its sees no air time, good or bad.

(just my experience with the class, i'd love to hear if anyone has had something different)

Closet_Skeleton
2007-12-30, 01:48 PM
Hulking Hurler, but with a slightly differant definition of the term useless.

You think Survivor is bad? Look at Yuan-ti Cultist and Slaad Brooder from the same book. They're NPC classes anyway and a Survivor can be useful for DM's having trouble with a certain kind of Wizard PC.

Eunuch Warlock is useless in a certain department :smallwink:

Master of Radiance and Sacred Purifier are on the lame side of things.

Complete Warrior Kensei is pretty crap as well. It mainly gives you stuff a normal character would get anyway.

Aquillion
2007-12-30, 02:07 PM
Its not the worst PrC because it sucks so bad, but because its so unimpressive, undesired, and uninteresting that despite its core location, its sees no air time, good or bad.

(just my experience with the class, i'd love to hear if anyone has had something different)Eh. Mechanically, it's a full-casting cleric PRC with easy entrance requirements; of course it's going to have only minor benefits, since it's practically giving those benefits away for free. I've never seen one played, but Contingent Conjuration looks like it could be fun... the XP cost of Planar Cohort seems absurd (you're practically paying an entire level!), but, still, I'm sure there's lots of ways to use it effectively.

The main problem here isn't with the PRC itself, but with the whole balance of clerics and cleric summoners.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-12-30, 02:17 PM
I love this type of thread, because my favorite (or rather least favorite) never gets mentioned (at least i didn't see it when i read the last three pages)

Thaumaturgist

Its the worst for a couple of reasons in my mind

1. no one ever remembers it, thinks of it, refers to it, or anything, despite the fact that its in the DMG! Its core, and no one pays it any attention. Its so worthless it doesn't even stick in poeples mind. No one hates this class, be cause no one can think about it for more than five secounds before its pure nothingness erases it from consideration

2. Its full caster progression, and yet no one i've seen has made a build using it. Maybe someone has, but its seldom. You'll see it in lists of full caster PrC's but it never scores high, despite its very simple prerequisites (4th level cleric spell, spell focus conjuration)

3. its abilities are not useless, for a summoner they're actually pretty good in many ways, but since you have to be a cleric to get 'planar ally, lesser' it only appeals to the Summoner Cleric comunity, which is really not the best use of anyones time. If a druid could be a thaumatergist i think it would see alot more air time. Thus its giving good summoning to a class thats not really needing it in general. There just isn't a demand/desire for this PrC.

Its not the worst PrC because it sucks so bad, but because its so unimpressive, undesired, and uninteresting that despite its core location, its sees no air time, good or bad.

(just my experience with the class, i'd love to hear if anyone has had something different)


I disagree if Complete Divine is available. The Contemplative PRC is one way of opening it up to Druids via picking up a bonus domain like Spell (IMO Anyspell, Greater will let the Druid meet the PRC requirement for Thaumaturgist and being able to cast Lesser Planar Ally, another domain like Summmoning has Lesser Planar Ally as a bonus spell. The Arcane Disciple feat opens up the Thaumaturgist PRC to arcane spellcasters by taking one of those two domains.

Lot of goodness in the PRC including getting an unusally powerful planar cohort (Generally a more powerful planar cohort than a PC could normally obtain with the Leadership feat (which requires DM approval to take) (Things like a Noble Djinni for Wishes probably better than a LE Efreeti IMO or a Movanic Deva from the Fiend Folio for all the spelllike abilities it has Commune, Raise Dead..... although SM7 would do the trick and lots of other great cohort choices)).

TomTheRat
2007-12-30, 02:28 PM
Thief-acrobat
5 levels to waste away your combat skills to gain the ability to sneak into a safe, get caught, and die.


Thats a filthy lie. You get 2 Roll With the Punches and Improved Evasion, you get to take 10 on all mobility skills, you get to sneak, tumble, and climb at full movement, you get an unnamed +2 AC, and another +1 when you fight defensively, you get to get up from prone with no AOO, and all you lose is a little dps and 2 skills per level.

I'm playing one of these in a 6 man ToEE game, and the extra survivability is fantastic. If you're playing a stabbity rogue sure, it's no good, but if you're playing a trap monkey/scout rogue, it's great.

goken04
2007-12-30, 03:48 PM
Frenzied berserker's frenzy can be ended with Iron Heart Surge, or a high enough will save (like, say, Cumbrous Will + Bull Headed + Steadfast Determination).

Not to mention the party cleric's low, low level Calm Emotions spell. A FB's frenzy is, generally, gonna do more to buff the barbarian than any other spell of Calm Emotion's level so count it as a buff and have the party Cleric prepare it. I was once in a two-person party of Barbarian and Cleric and it was a whole lot of fun and very effective.




Thaumaturgist...

1. no one ever remembers it, thinks of it, refers to it, or anything, despite the fact that its in the DMG! Its core, and no one pays it any attention. Its so worthless it doesn't even stick in poeples mind. No one hates this class, be cause no one can think about it for more than five secounds before its pure nothingness erases it from consideration

2. Its full caster progression, and yet no one i've seen has made a build using it. Maybe someone has, but its seldom. You'll see it in lists of full caster PrC's but it never scores high, despite its very simple prerequisites (4th level cleric spell, spell focus conjuration)

3. its abilities are not useless, for a summoner they're actually pretty good in many ways, but since you have to be a cleric to get 'planar ally, lesser' it only appeals to the Summoner Cleric comunity, which is really not the best use of anyones time. If a druid could be a thaumatergist i think it would see alot more air time. Thus its giving good summoning to a class thats not really needing it in general. There just isn't a demand/desire for this PrC.

As for 1 and 2, this summoning thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=883099&highlight=summoner%20handbook), and many it links to, have a number of builds that include the Thaumaturgist.

As for 3, I agree that a Summoner Cleric isn't a great build. However, I have a Conjurer/Malconvoker that is going to have no trouble with the entry requirements to Thaumaturgist (which I'm planning on taking all the way through). I took some levels of Master Specialist on the way to Malconvoker and, at the appropriate level, I will dip back into Master Specialist for Expanded Spellbook, allowing me to add any conjuration spell I can cast to my spell list. Bam! Lesser Planar Ally... Thaumaturgist here I come!

marjan
2007-12-30, 04:06 PM
Complete Warrior Kensei is pretty crap as well. It mainly gives you stuff a normal character would get anyway.

I disagree with you on this. Normal characters cannot get to roll concentration check instead reflex save, as move action pump their strength by +8 (potentialy unlimited times per day). With their bonus to bluff, diplomacy and intimidate they make pretty good party faces. And upgrading weapon while keeping your gold is nice (you'll have 200k in your weapon by lvl 15). It certanly isn't the best class but it certanly isn't the worst.

Seatbelt
2007-12-30, 06:11 PM
I like the Dwarven Defender. My Knight/DD with a spiked chain, while extremely feat starved, is nifty. And I have more HP than God.

Wordmiser
2007-12-30, 06:37 PM
Out of curosity, has anyone ever used any of the Skill Trick classes in Complete Scoundrel? Or the Master of the Unseen Hand or Mindspy from Complete Adventurer?

DJ Scrub
2007-12-30, 09:13 PM
I have played in a game with an Uncanny Trickster before. It is a nifty class, in that it give full benefits from a previous class, but a bit limited. This is because skill tricks are only found in the Complete Scoundrel, so the list is a bit short compared to other things. It's mostly rogue-related skills with a few drop-ins like Healing Hands and Quick Swimmer. As a result, Uncanny Trickster can be neat if you want to play, for example, a Beguiler who is constantly using spell-powered deceptions to sneak around, infiltrate via disguises, etc. But all of the skill trick classes suffer from those sorts of things: a few specific builds possible due to the poor selection of skill tricks.

I have personally played a Mindspy, and it's terrible because of the weakness of detect thoughts. It only really works with very specific magic item, race, or feat cheese. The low save DC on most methods of enabling the class features just cripples most attempts to make use of the class.

throtecutter
2007-12-30, 09:20 PM
I think I need to support some of the classes people have been mentioning.
The Arcane Archer can be a nice 2 level dip, letting you cast spells over 1/2 mile away. Also, antimagic field arrows are scary. It's a better disjunction.
The Greenstar adept, if I'm reading it right, gets 15 effective caster levels in a 10 level prestige class.
The hierophant is also OK if you take the Spell-like ability special ability especially when you have maximize spell-like ability in Compete Arcane.

Fax Celestis
2007-12-30, 09:43 PM
The Arcane Archer can be a nice 2 level dip, letting you cast spells over 1/2 mile away.

Enlarge Spell, for +1 level, doubles the range of the spell you add it to. An enlarged fireball has a range of 1360'--over a quarter mile-- at CL 7, the earliest you can apply the metamagic. And you can do it in any class, with any race, without a bow, without an attack roll, and still keep your caster levels. It gets worse later on: at CL 20, any Range: Long spell you apply it to has a maximum range of 2400', just under a half-mile, and still doesn't need an attack roll.

A one-level dip into Arcane Devotee--from Player's Guide to Faerun--will let you automatically add Enlarge to any spell you cast as you cast it, without level adjustment, 1+Cha times per day.

Pyroconstruct
2007-12-30, 10:09 PM
Green Star Adept is both lame and ineffective. You eat radioactive rocks so you turn into a green crystal dude...Ooooook. Give up 5 CLs to gain some strength (woo) hardness (OK), lose some dex (uhh) and lose your CON score (NOOOOOOOO, not good. Also kills the only semi-OK use of this class, a gish, since the loss of Con and all HD going to d10 will lose most gishes a lot of HP). To top it off, you have to pay to level in Green Star Adept. Pay through the nose to suck horribly and glow? OH YEAH I CAN'T GET ENOUGH OF THIS METEORITE ****. Oh, and just to add insult to injury, you don't even get immunity to mind-affecting powers like other constructs.

Edit: Also, no, GSA gives you 5/10, not 15/10.

Pyroconstruct
2007-12-30, 10:19 PM
In the spirit of defending crappy PrCs, Hierophant is useful in Ur-Priest builds; for example, (entry classes) 5/UrPriest 10/Hierophant5. It still adds to your caster level, just not your spells/day, so the disadvantage doesn't matter. It blows chunks in pretty much any other build, though.

deathbyhokie
2007-12-30, 10:33 PM
I disagree with you on this. Normal characters cannot get to roll concentration check instead reflex save, as move action pump their strength by +8 (potentialy unlimited times per day). With their bonus to bluff, diplomacy and intimidate they make pretty good party faces. And upgrading weapon while keeping your gold is nice (you'll have 200k in your weapon by lvl 15). It certanly isn't the best class but it certanly isn't the worst.

You forgot being able to beef up a friend by giving them your BAB and Saves for several hours.

The thing about the Kensai class is that you don't have to pay any to upgrade your weapon, and (if i read it right), all it takes is 24 hours and a bit of XP and you can completely change your weapon's mods. Got a day before you set out to fight an Orc army? Make it an orcbane. Get back to town, spend a day, and prepare to set out against some undead.

Fawsto
2007-12-30, 10:42 PM
Shining Blade of Heironeus: Making the Paladin worse since Complete Divine's out.

C'mon.. You can do everything it does being a Kensai!!! Unlimited times a day!! And for only 4000 XP!!! And power surge kicks ass if used correctly.

Now... Lemme see... Arcane Archer? At 3.0, a freaking destructive class; at 3.5? LAME!!!!

Yeah... Thinking well Dwarven Defender is slower than a tortoise in the battlefield... I think they expected you to be inside a corridor stoping anything from moving trough you all the times.

I know I could think of many more, but I am too lazy...

Ahhh Frenzied Berseker!!! This one is sure to kill your party whenever you face a single big monster. After the FB kills the monsters, he kills the Party... NIIICEEEE...

Btw, anyone here mentioned the Hierofant?

Arcane Blade, Eldrich Blade or whatever he known for in the English version of the Complete Warrior. I think you can use the archetype by being a completely functional Warmage and being simply better in the battlefield...

CASTLEMIKE
2007-12-30, 10:45 PM
I think I need to support some of the classes people have been mentioning.
The Arcane Archer can be a nice 2 level dip, letting you cast spells over 1/2 mile away. Also, antimagic field arrows are scary. It's a better disjunction.
The Greenstar adept, if I'm reading it right, gets 15 effective caster levels in a 10 level prestige class.



Arcane Archer can be a decent dipping PRC but most PCs won't take it for the full 10 levels and even a 2 level dip is expensive costing the PC 2 casting levels.

I'm missing what you are seeing with the Green Star Adept PRC (it has a lot of interesting class specials) but if the PRC is taken for 10 levels the PC only receives +5 casting levels instead of +10 casting levels.

bugsysservant
2007-12-30, 10:47 PM
In the spirit of defending crappy PrCs, Hierophant is useful in Ur-Priest builds; for example, (entry classes) 5/UrPriest 10/Hierophant5. It still adds to your caster level, just not your spells/day, so the disadvantage doesn't matter. It blows chunks in pretty much any other build, though.

This isn't completely true. Since you can double your caster level progression, its nice if you just want to wander around Holy Wording anything that moves. It's not necessarily a weak class, just a very limited, poorly concieved, and very specialized class. Not the worst, but up there.

edit: concerning the green star adept:

Improved Caster Level (Ex): A Green Star adept adds his class level to his caster level in another arcane spellcasting class to determine his effective spellcaster level. If the character had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a Green Star adept, the player must decide to which class to add each adept level for this purpose. For example, a 5th-level wizard/4th-level Green Star adept's caster level would be 9th, due to this ability, but he would only have access to 4th-level spells (5th-level wizard plus two arcane spellcasting class levels from being a 4th-level Green Star adept).

essentially, they progress in caster levels, even if they don't gain spells. So a wiz 10/green star adept 10 would have a CL of 20, but could only cast spells that a wizard 15 could.

SurlySeraph
2007-12-30, 11:40 PM
Grey Guards as written are awful, but tweaking them fo that they are Neutral or evil paladins while still having smite is great
from,
EE

This was on page one, but just for the sake of completeness: *swears oath of bloody favorite-PrC-honor-defending smitiness against EvilElitest*


I love this type of thread, because my favorite (or rather least favorite) never gets mentioned (at least i didn't see it when i read the last three pages)

Thaumaturgist


Hey, I completely forgot to mention Thaumaturgist!

Unsurprisingly.

The_Werebear
2007-12-30, 11:46 PM
Darkwood Stalker is a good example of being specialized into sucking. If there are no orcs in your campaign, you have just wasted your time. Even if there is the occasional orc involved, for the most part you have still become the worlds best killer of a race of mooks that most people get over killing by level 5.

Master of the Unseen hand really just kind of sucks. It's a mage class with no increase of caster level (except for telekinesis) that focuses on one fairly mediocre offensive spell. The only use for this is generally a Ghost with the telekinetic ability

UglyPanda
2007-12-30, 11:48 PM
Green Star Adept is absolutely horrid.
In order to gain a level, it must spend 1,000 gp, ingest one pound of starmetal, and spend a week preparing to drink the starmetal. In other words, you can't level up in this class unless you have a week of downtime and have access to a material which is fairly rare. This means you'll always level up long after your fellow adventurers, and only in a major city or town. That tends to make a player fairly annoyed.
Not only does your DM have to add an item to his gameworld in order to allow you to do your thing, but you have to hope your DM likes Eberron, because Green Star Adepts have the same healing problems as Warforged.

I've seen a build for master of the unseen hand which involves using chain spell to attack opponents with [caster level] greatswords per turn. Probably suboptimal, but pretty cool.

Wordmiser
2007-12-31, 12:03 AM
Arcane Blade, Eldrich Blade or whatever he known for in the English version of the Complete Warrior. I think you can use the archetype by being a completely functional Warmage and being simply better in the battlefield...That'd be the Spellsword.

To be honest, that's not a bad class (for the first five levels, at least). It ignores Arcane Spell failure (though its mechanic isn't as efficient as later "Ignore Light Armor's Arcane Spell Failure" abilities), it channels spells, it has decent hit points and full base attack, it works in an extra feat. And if played right, you'll still end up with 9th level spells.

And it's not comprable to Complete Arcane's Warmage--they have different roles. It's better compared to the Duskblade (PHB2).

And the two classes do seem pretty close to even in their power (neither as strong as full 9th level arcane Spellcasters, one channeling more frequently, one channeling better with more spells accessible).

There was a reason that it was present in most pre-Abjurant Champion gish builds.

Draz74
2007-12-31, 01:03 AM
Thaumaturgist is pretty good for any Core-Only Cleric who wants to be a pure caster rather than having some melee power. Yeah ...

Technically, if you use RAW strictly, Dragon Disciple is in the contention for "worst PrC" because, once you get to 10th level, you lose one of the prereqs of the class (not being Dragon Type), and therefore lose all your class abilities. But I'll assume the DM is better than that ...

I'll venture into Tome of Magic, because no one else has mentioned it.

- Tenebrous Apostate. Right, so it's like a Mystic Theurge. Only it only goes for five levels. And you progress Binding instead of arcane casting. (Binding's not bad, but still ...) And you only get partial divine caster progression. And your abilities focus on being able to rebuke undead better, even though that's about the most useless ability of the Cleric.

- Acolyte of the Ego. So you give up a feat and a bunch of skill points so you can stop in the middle of the campaign, give up whatever useful class ability progression you were getting, and switch to using the Truenamer's crappy mechanic. And you have to keep taking this PrC, because your abilities start out really weak, then scale exponentially until they become mediocre after 10 levels. No Utterance progression for Truenamers (why???) or spellcasting progression for Bards (the other class that can get into the PrC easily), so pretty much only a Fighter would think about entering. At least he might benefit from the class abilities (since Fighter is so underpowered). On the other hand, the skill point investment is a big deal for him, and this PrC makes him MAD.

Well, all the Truenaming PrCs are kinda weak, but that one beats the others, so I'll just stop there.

Douglas
2007-12-31, 01:03 AM
I vote for the Sybil PrC from Savage Species. Its capstone ability is to cast Discern Location... once per week... but only if you answer a "nearly impossible" riddle correctly... and if you get the answer wrong, you take 2d6 negative levels. Oh, they can also use Limited Wish - once per year.

A close runner up is the Doomlord from the Planar Handbook. It's a half caster class with full BAB. At level 1, all healing spells heal only half the normal amount for you. In exchange for this, you get such things as Dispel Magic 3/day, Disintegrate 1/day, and a smite ability. Oh, and three bonus feats... chosen from Cleave, Diehard, Endurance, Great Cleave, Improved Critical, and Toughness. Edit: You have to keep going in the class to get those benefits, and it's a 10 level class. The reduced healing is at full strength immediately at level 1.

Draz74
2007-12-31, 01:10 AM
Wow. You know you're in trouble when Cleave and Improved Critical are your good feat choices.

purplearcanist
2007-12-31, 09:59 AM
I love this type of thread, because my favorite (or rather least favorite) never gets mentioned (at least i didn't see it when i read the last three pages)

Thaumaturgist

Its the worst for a couple of reasons in my mind

1. no one ever remembers it, thinks of it, refers to it, or anything, despite the fact that its in the DMG! Its core, and no one pays it any attention. Its so worthless it doesn't even stick in poeples mind. No one hates this class, be cause no one can think about it for more than five secounds before its pure nothingness erases it from consideration

2. Its full caster progression, and yet no one i've seen has made a build using it. Maybe someone has, but its seldom. You'll see it in lists of full caster PrC's but it never scores high, despite its very simple prerequisites (4th level cleric spell, spell focus conjuration)

3. its abilities are not useless, for a summoner they're actually pretty good in many ways, but since you have to be a cleric to get 'planar ally, lesser' it only appeals to the Summoner Cleric comunity, which is really not the best use of anyones time. If a druid could be a thaumatergist i think it would see alot more air time. Thus its giving good summoning to a class thats not really needing it in general. There just isn't a demand/desire for this PrC.

Its not the worst PrC because it sucks so bad, but because its so unimpressive, undesired, and uninteresting that despite its core location, its sees no air time, good or bad.

(just my experience with the class, i'd love to hear if anyone has had something different)

It is not the most useless class, you get a couple of useful abilities in exchange for wasting a feat. Which are:
1. The Argument Summoning feat for free (useful for summoning, which is one thing a cleric is good for).
2. Extended Summoning - All summon monster spells are extended without using a higher level spell. Stack this on with the extend spell metamagic feat, and you can have summoning spells that last for a very long time.
3. Contingent conjuration - Use your summons with contigency.
4. Planar Cohort - Essentially, this is Leadership for free. Note: qualifies as cheese with certain monsters.

The only ability that is only a little useful is Improved ally. And you still get full casting progression, which makes it a good choice for the cleric.

purplearcanist
2007-12-31, 10:03 AM
I vote for the Sybil PrC from Savage Species. Its capstone ability is to cast Discern Location... once per week... but only if you answer a "nearly impossible" riddle correctly... and if you get the answer wrong, you take 2d6 negative levels. Oh, they can also use Limited Wish - once per year.


But, with one of their abilities, they can add their sybil level to the save DC of all divine spells. But yes, this prestiege class is largely useless for PC's. The main reason it is here is to give a DM a plot device.

Douglas
2007-12-31, 12:58 PM
No, you only get to add half Sybil level to save DCs - the bonus is to effective wisdom, not effective wisdom bonus. Oh, and the class doesn't advance spellcasting at all, so the bonus is no more than keeping pace with a full caster's highest level save DCs without actually getting the higher level spells that it would be useful with.

Severus
2007-12-31, 02:13 PM
One of my pet peeves is the caster PrCs without no or crappy caster progression.

bingo_bob
2007-12-31, 03:28 PM
Thunder Guide, Explorer's Handbook.

A lot of the abilities just give you small amounts (at that level) of gold. It's... junk. Pure junk.

lord_khaine
2007-12-31, 03:48 PM
One of my pet peeves is the caster PrCs without no or crappy caster progression

but something even worse is caster prestice classes with full progression, a lot of them (just about all) gives for power to casters for no price.
prime candidate of this is initiate of the sevenfold veil.

Draz74
2007-12-31, 04:00 PM
but something even worse is caster prestice classes with full progression

QFT. This is a much bigger pet peeve in my book.

Most caster PrCs should have casting in the 7/10 to 9/10 range.

Roderick_BR
2007-12-31, 05:11 PM
Picking on the BoVD's lame PrC's (the book has awesome fluff, but terrible crunchs), there's the Warrior of Darkness. He's a warrior, of daaaarkneeees... that gains the ability to reproduce effects that could be bought with magic itens, and a few feats that even a fighter could get a better selection.
He'll only be useful inside an AMF.

The Shining Blade of Heironeous is not that class that once you get an electric holy sword makes half your class features useless?

About the Frenzied Berzerker, he's not really useless, but TOO good. Last time I played, one of my friends was a FB, and he almost killed the party's fighter with his CLEAVE, because he dropped an enemy, then had a free attack, but the fighter was the only thing close.

Signmaker
2007-12-31, 07:11 PM
Not exactly useless, but pretty odd.

Champion of Corellon Larethian.

Hooray, you're a pally-fighter swordperson who probably has a bit of Dex, Int, and Str.

But some of the feat prereqs are hardly specialized around the actual concept.

Mounted Combat? Where, in all the fluff provided, or even the cover art for that matter, was there mention of riding horses? Or did WotC take a look at Legolas and say "Sure"?

It takes heavy investment in Str, Dex, Int, and Cha just to utilize the class abilities presented.

Aquillion
2007-12-31, 07:37 PM
but something even worse is caster prestice classes with full progression, a lot of them (just about all) gives for power to casters for no price.
prime candidate of this is initiate of the sevenfold veil.
To be fair, the IotSV does require three essentially useless feats, plus a bunch of skill points. It's still underpriced for what it does, but not entirely free.

But not every full-casting PRC is broken. Geometer is fairly balanced, for one; while the feat it requires is one wizards get for free, its benefits are limited, and many cost gold to use.

Mage of the Arcane Order likewise costs a feat, costs a bit of gold to enter and maintain, and requires that the PC take on special 'commissions' for the order every so often, in exchange for benefits that, while useful, mostly have to be used sparingly.

...personally, though, if I was designing the system, I would not make every casting PRC cost caster levels; the fact is, caster levels are Too Darn Important. Losing even a single caster level generally changes the entire flavor of a build, in practice, from caster to a sort of 'secondary caster', usually overshadowed by any true full casters around. (This isn't a balance thing; with the way the system works, even under balanced magic this would still happen. Your highest-level spells are that important.)

Instead, what I would do is make some of the spells / day that wizards and sorcerers get into an ability of the class that you don't get through casting-advancement PRCs. So, for instance, instead of a wizard's spells at 6th level being 4/4/3/2, they would be 4/3/2/1, and the wizard would have a special ability, "Enhanced Preperation", that gives them an additional spell slot on their lowest-level spells (excluding cantrips) that haven't already been enhanced by this ability at every even level (Which would, for the above, restore it to 4/4/3/2.) This ability would specifically only be gained as a wizard, and not as a PRC that advances casting; Sorcerers would have something similar.

That way, a wizard or sorcerer who multiclasses into a full-casting PRC loses spell slots in the long run, but still advances their highest level of casting at the normal rate; they've traded off something significant, but haven't traded away the crown jewels.

(If I was doing this, some existing underpowered PRCs would require balancing -- for instance, Mystic Theurge and similar classes could probably advance those bonus spells safely.)

Why is this necessary? Go back and look at the IotSV. I would argue that, while its abilities are very nice, the class would actually be extremely underpowered if it cost even a single caster level. No matter how nice its use / day abilities are, they tend to pale next to the versatility and power of higher-level spells.

Armads
2007-12-31, 11:06 PM
Umm, Kaelik, I think you got the wrong thread.

Kaelik
2007-12-31, 11:27 PM
Umm, Kaelik, I think you got the wrong thread.

So I did. Thanks for the catch. I wonder if I missed replying to something I meant to because of the screw up.

Fawsto
2008-01-01, 11:56 AM
Uhhhh... I found It... The hospitalar... My God, it is indeed crap.

You stop being a fully functional Cleric to stop gaining a full Caster progression and gain the hability to Lay on Hands and to REMOVE DISEASE.

No PrC that has a Class Feature Remove Disease deserves my respect... Can't they stop doing the same mistake they did to the Paladin?

Starsinger
2008-01-01, 12:05 PM
No PrC that has a Class Feature Remove Disease deserves my respect... Can't they stop doing the same mistake they did to the Paladin?

Doesn't that class feature go up in value if the book of erotic fantasy enters play?

Grug
2008-01-01, 12:07 PM
I have no firsthand experiance of this, but the Wayfarer guide from Tome and Blood seems pretty useless. You take 3 levels in the class to improve ONE spell (teleport). Lame.

JMobius
2008-01-01, 12:40 PM
I have no firsthand experiance of this, but the Wayfarer guide from Tome and Blood seems pretty useless. You take 3 levels in the class to improve ONE spell (teleport). Lame.

That is the sort of class you give to NPCs.

I believe its been mentioned in some places that the wizard that hauled around TOotS for a while probably had a few levels in Wayfarer Guide.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-01-01, 01:36 PM
I have no firsthand experiance of this, but the Wayfarer guide from Tome and Blood seems pretty useless. You take 3 levels in the class to improve ONE spell (teleport). Lame.

One of the game defaults is that it is based on suggested wealth by level whether or not an individual game uses that default.

IMO that is the main reason to pursue at least a single level dip of the Wayfarer PRC (Two source books) is to acquire more wealth than the game standard.

IMO if a DM allows a PC to take the Wayfarer PRC he should be allowing the PC to earn more wealth in game by teleporting NPCs as a Wayfarer since the PRC in both source books includes the Wayfarer rates for teleporting NPCs in game and at level 10 suggested wealth by level is 49,000 gp.

hippie_dwarf
2008-01-01, 02:14 PM
Oh, that reminds me—the Metamind. It's a class that revolves around having more psionic power, which is hardly an enthralling concept, and in execution... you give up manifester levels for the ability to manifest lower-level powers for free a few times per day.

lose about 107 power points for taking the class all the way up to 10th level; if your manifester level is 10th, you're getting a maximum of 90 power points out of the free powers, plus 11 points out of the cognizance crystal... 101. Plus the lost PP from having a high ability score. The capstone ability is nice, but it's only good for one short-ish encounter.

In perfect fairness, those lower-level powers can be fully augmented, meaning that if you got Practiced Manifester, you actually do end up being able to use more effective power points (151 total)... but only at level 15. As you get higher-level, the problem only keeps getting worse. And any way you look at it, you're still giving up higher-level powers and the ability to fully augment your lower-level ones.

The other prestige classes in that book were all reasonably interesting and at least somewhat well-made, too, so it stands out.

I'm going to have to vote for that aswell. I belive there was a motivational picture that described the metamind best, but I can't find the picture, I think it went :


The Metamind
Suck for free, for 1 minute a day!