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Necromas
2007-12-29, 03:31 PM
I'm more or less a final fantasy nut, so I decided to make a red mage base class. I know it's been done before but here's my take on it.

Description: The red mage is a bit of a jack of all trades class. It combines the abilities of a fighter, a white mage (closest dnd comparison would be healer), and a black mage (closest dnd comparison would be warmage). The red mage however pays for this versatility by excelling in none of these areas. He will never reach a fighters level of weapon mastery, or a white or black mages level of spellcasting prowess, instead always being mediocre in all three areas. They make up for this mediocrity however in versatility, a red mage can use black magic against foes resistsant to weapon attacks, become a backup fighter when magic is ineffective or the party role needs filling, and play the backup healer as well when what the party needs is defense. Red mages only have one ability unique to them, and that is the ability to doublecast a limited number of times per day. Though their spells are weaker, doublecasting allows a red mage a temporary burst in power compared to other casters.

Abilities: Intelligence determines how powerfull a Red Mages spellcasting ability is. Dexterity is important to a Red Mage as they are limited to light armors. Strength is important for helping a Red Mage with melee combat. Constitution is important for allowing the red mage to take hits. Wisdom and Charisma can help with skills and will saves.

Races: Humans and other diverse races are the most common Red Mages, as they are best able to master the Red Mages versatility. More physically strong or magically inclined races sometimes become Red Mages and focus more on one area of their abilities.

Alignment: Any. Red Mages are as versitile in their motivations as they are in their abilities.

Starting Gold: 6d4×10 gp (150 gp).

Starting Age: Any

HD: d8
Saves: poor fort/reflex, good will
BAB: medium

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Reflex|Will|Special Abilities|Spells Gained|0th|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th
1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2|Armored Mage|2+int|5|2|-|-|-|-|-|
2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3|Bonus Feat|2|6|4|-|-|-|-|-|
3rd|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+3|Doublecast 1/day|2|6|5|-|-|-|-|-|
4th|
+3|
+1|
+1|
+4|Bonus Feat|2|7|6|2|-|-|-|-|
5th|
+3|
+1|
+1|
+4||2|7|6|4|-|-|-|-|
6th|
+4|
+2|
+2|
+5||2|7|6|5|-|-|-|-|
7th|
+5|
+2|
+2|
+5|Doublecast 2/day|2|7|6|6|2|-|-|-|
8th|
+6/1|
+2|
+2|
+6|Bonus Feat|2|7|6|6|4|-|-|-|
9th|
+6/1|
+3|
+3|
+6||2|7|6|6|5|-|-|-|
10th|
+7/2|
+3|
+3|
+7||2|7|6|6|6|2|-|-|
11th|
+8/3|
+3|
+3|
+7|Doublecast 3/day|2|7|6|6|6|4|-|-|
12th|
+9/4|
+4|
+4|
+8|Bonus Feat|2|7|6|6|6|5|-|-|
13th|
+9/4|
+4|
+4|
+8||2|7|6|6|6|6|2|-|
14th|
+10/5|
+4|
+4|
+9||2|7|6|6|6|6|4|-|
15th|
+11/6/1|
+5|
+5|
+9|Doublecast 4/day|2|7|6|6|6|6|5|-|
16th|
+12/7/2|
+5|
+5|
+10|Bonus Feat|2|7|6|6|6|6|6|2|
17th|
+12/7/2|
+5|
+5|
+10||2|7|6|6|6|6|6|4|
18th|
+13/8/3|
+6|
+6|
+11||2|7|6|6|6|6|6|5|
19th|
+14/9/4|
+6|
+6|
+11|Doublecast 5/day|2|7|6|6|6|6|6|6|
20th|
+15/10/5|
+6|
+6|
+12|Bonus Feat|2|7|6|6|6|6|6|6|[/table]

Skill Points: 4+int per level (*4 at first level)
Class Skills: Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Heal (Wis), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Swim (Str).

Proficiencies: Red Mages are proficient with all Simple Weapons, and 3 Martial Weapons of their choosing. They are proficient fighters but lack the time to focus on mastering a variety of weapons as they must also spend much time training in other areas. Red Mages are proficient in all Light Armor and with Light Shields.

Spellcasting: A Red Mage casts arcane spells which are drawn from their own spell list. A Red Mage may spontaneously cast any spell they know so long as they have the appropriate spell slot available. To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the Red Mage must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a Red Mage’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the Red Mage’s Intelligence modifier. Like other spellcasters, a Red Mage can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on the above table. In addition, a Red Mage receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Intelligence score.

At first level, a Red Mage begins knowing a number of spells equal to 2 + his intelligence modifier. Every level thereafter the Red Mage learns two additional spells of their choice of up to the highest spell level they can cast after gaining the new level. Though their spell list is limited, a Red Mage will rarely be caught without knowing the right spell for the situation.

Armored Mage: Red Mages train in keeping their spells somatic components simple, and as such are able to ignore the arcane spell failure caused by wearing light armor or light shields. However, they still suffer spell failure when wearing medium or heavy armor or using heavy shields.

*A Red Mage still suffers from arcane spell failure normally when casting spells from other classes.

Bonus Feats: The Red Mage continues to train their combat skills alongside their magic abilities as they progress. A red mage gains a bonus feat at their 2nd level, 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter. These feats are in addition to the feats normally gained from gaining levels or other sources, and must be choosen from the list of fighter bonus feats. The Red Mage also qualifies for fighter bonus feats as if he had as many fighter levels as the BAB he has from his red mage levels in addition to any fighter levels he may have.

Doublecast: While the Red Mage lacks in power compared to other spellcasters, he partially makes up for it with the ability to cast two spells in a row very quickly. As a full round action, the red mage may cast any two spells he knows that are not of the highest spell level he can cast as a full round action. Both spells must have original casting times of one standard action or less, and they may be either the same spell cast twice or two different spells. These spells use up spell slots as if they had been cast normally.

*A Red Mage can only doublecast a limited number of times per day as given on the table, and cannot doublecast spells gained from other classes. He also cannot use a swift or immediate action during a round in which he doublecasts because it is especially exerting on the Red Mage.

Red Mage Spell List: Red Mages are masters of both black and white magic. Their black magic gives them powerful offensive spells like those of a warmage, focused on dealing damage. On the other hand, their white magic spells grant them the ability to heal their allies and cure them of any negative status effects. At the Dungeon Masters discretion this list could be expanded, but I would only suggest adding elemental damage spells that keep with the black magic theme.

0th Level - Cure Minor Wounds, Detect Poison, Acid Splash, Disrupt Undead, Light, Ray of Frost

1st Level - Cure Light Wounds, Delay Poison, Burning Hands, Chill Touch, Fist of Stone, Hail of Stone, Magic Missile, Orb of Acid: Lesser, Orb of Cold: Lesser, Orb of Electricity: Lesser, Orb of Fire: Lesser, Orb of Sound: Lesser, Shocking Grasp, Sleep

2nd Level - Cure Moderate Wounds, Lesser Restoration, Remove Paralysis, Blades of Fire, Continual Flame, Fire Trap, Fireburst, Flaming Sphere, Ice Knife, Melf's Acid Arrow, Pyrotechnics, Scorching Ray

3rd Level - Cure Serious Wounds, Remove Disease, Dispel Magic, Slow, Haste Fire Shield, Fireball, Flame Arrow, Gust of Wind, Ice Storm, Lightning Bolt, Poison, Sleet Storm, Stinking Cloud

4th Level - Cure Critical Wounds, Remove Blindness/Deafness, Neutralize Poison, Restoration, Blast of Flame, Contagion, Evard's Black Tentacles, Orb of Acid, Orb of Cold, Orb of Electricity, Orb of Fire, Orb of Force, Orb of Sound

5th Level - Mass Cure Light Wounds, Break Enchantment, Arc of Lightning, Cloudkill, Cone of Cold, Fire Shield: Legion's, Fire Shield: Mass, Fireburst: Greater, Flame Strike, Prismatic Ray

6th Level - Mass Cure Moderate Wounds, Heal, Dispel Magic: Greater, Acid Fog, Blade Barrier, Chain Lightning, Disintegrate, Fire Seeds, Otiluke's Freezing Sphere, Tenser's Transformation

Abjurer
2007-12-29, 04:02 PM
It's a stronger bard. Without the musical talent.

ZeroNumerous
2007-12-29, 04:43 PM
My suggestion: Since this is basically a weaker Bard, maybe you should add some Cleric spells. Stuff an arcane caster normally doesn't get access to? Capitalize on it's medium BAB by offering the various buffs from Cleric.

arkanis
2007-12-30, 05:51 AM
It looks just a tad too powerful due to the fact that it gets half the fighter's number of bonus feats in addition to special abilities equivalent to feats plus spells and good stats. I would recommend you remove the fighter bonus feats.

One could argue that Red Mages would use Charisma and have Spells Known like a Bard due to their spontaneous casting and the fact that they mostly rely on their skills being able to adapt to others. However, so long as you're consistant with one ability score, I think it would work either way. You could always consider splitting bonus-spells per day, bonus-spells known, and spell DCs between Intelligence and Charisma just like the Favored Soul's spellcasting abilities are split between Wisdom and Charisma. It would definately adhere more closely with the concept of spread out abilities and "jack of all trades, master of none."

Aside from that and a few grammatical errors I'd say this is a nice-looking class and its really neat that you were inspired by the old Final Fantasy games.

Necromas
2007-12-30, 10:52 PM
The main reason for the fighter bonus feats is that most fighter mage hybrids get a strong boost to their fighter side from magic or special abilities. Red Mages, using the nuking theme of black magic and the healing theme of white magic, lack a strong array of buffs like you find on other casters. They also don't have any abilities that help with the fighter aspect, like channeling spells into weapon attacks. It also gives players a reason to take Red Mage levels when there are so many powerful PrCs out there for casters.

I guess what I'm trying to say is 3/4th BAB alone doesn't make someone a fighter hybrid.

Vadin
2007-12-31, 12:11 AM
You might want to remove the 'spells gained' and instead just add that in the spellcasting description. If its just gonna say 2 the whole time, why bother? Skills points don't do that.

arkanis
2007-12-31, 01:05 AM
The main reason for the fighter bonus feats is that most fighter mage hybrids get a strong boost to their fighter side from magic or special abilities. Red Mages, using the nuking theme of black magic and the healing theme of white magic, lack a strong array of buffs like you find on other casters. They also don't have any abilities that help with the fighter aspect, like channeling spells into weapon attacks. It also gives players a reason to take Red Mage levels when there are so many powerful PrCs out there for casters.
I guess what I'm trying to say is 3/4th BAB alone doesn't make someone a fighter hybrid.

You're right I suppose. On the other hand most fighter/mage hybrids don't have a variety of spells and are specialized in that area. Those types have weaknesses in that they lack the proper versatility your Red Mage has.

The Bard is the standard Jack-of-all-Trades in D&D and they have the most closely related stats to this class as it is right now so let's compare them:
-Bards have healing and minor buff spells vs. Red Mage has healing spells in addition to powerful evocation spells. 1 for the Red Mage.
-Bards have d6 HD vs. Red Mages have d8. 2 for the Red Mage.
-Bards have 6+Int skill points vs. Red Mages have 4+Int. 1 for the Bard.
-Bards have 2 good saves vs. Red Mages have 1. 2 for the Bard.
-Bards have a redundant class abilities which pretty much do the same thing their spells do but don't stack benefits vs. Red Mage has a doublecast ability making him not only have more powerful spells, but also able to use them faster. 3 for the Red Mage.
-Bards have nothing other than their boosting abilities vs. Red Mages also have Fighter Bonus feats in addition. 4 for the Red Mage.

I don't think I'm being unfair by saying the class is just a little bit overpowered as it is now and I thought that removing the fighter feats would fix that. I'm not trying to be a jerk by dissecting this class, on the contrary I pay attention to it so much because I think it's an excellent idea and you've done a great job on it so far. I just think it can be improved for greater balance because this particular combination of things make it slightly more powerful than a standard class.

Necromas
2007-12-31, 01:39 AM
Who said you had to compare it to a bard anyways?

Cleric comparison:
Same HD, BAB.
Clerics get saves.
RM gets skills.
Clerics get two domains that give bonus feats, expanded spell list, unique abilities, etc... at the clerics choosing.
Clerics get turn undead.
Clerics get better healing.
Clerics get the best buffs in the game.
Clerics get summons and utility spells.
Clerics get better armor
RM gets fighter feats.
Offensive magic could go either way considering the cleric gets 3 more levels worth of spells and has domain spells, but their list is lacking in offense though they certainly still have it.
RM gets doublecast.

Duskblade comparison:
Same HD
Duskblade gets BAB
RM gets skills
Duskblade gets saves
Duskblade gets channeling
RM gets healing
Duskblade gets buffs, though not on a clerics level
Offensive Magic goes to RM I suppose due to their better spell progression, but it should be noted that DBs get spells like polar ray and disintegrate at reduced levels.
RM gets doublecast
RM gets fighter feats
Duskblade gets quick cast
Duskblade gets spell power
Duskblade gets better armor

And lets not forget all the PrC options available to clerics, druids, bards, etc... while few would really boost a red mages power because much like a duskblade they would need a fighter mage prestige class, but most are tailored to full casters.

P.S. I'm not tallying RM 1 Cleric 2, etc... cause the differences aren't all of equal value, but pointing em out is still needed to compare them of course.

arkanis
2007-12-31, 04:54 AM
I take it you don't think doublecast is as strong as I do. I cannot tell you how easily one could wipe out creatures of twice their challenge rating with doublecast and quickened spell. Let alone how much doublecast + bonus fighter feats is more powerful than anything else I've seen in the spellcasting base classes. Wouldn't be a big deal had you chosen a crappier spell list or put less spells but you chose a really good one so it makes a big difference.

The bard was the best comparison due to the similar concept and closely related general stats.

Clerics get better armor, but not bonus fight feats. The reason bonus fighter feats are so incredible is not only because they are bonus feats, but because you get to select which ones and maximize their capability. Clerics are a lot more restricted than this Red Mage class, believe me I play them half the time. They have to prepare their spells, their turning abilities are very limited to only affect weaker creatures (only a very rare few exceptional or lucky clerics has the capacity to affect equal or stronger creatures), and their summoning abilities are not impressive, any other caster can match or even outdo them. Now as far as healing and buffs goes, clerics are indeed the masters of the base PHB classes, only Druids can match them. However, the issue is that clerics are specialized. They're supposed to be darn good at what they do. Red Mages are not. They're supposed to be adequate at everything, not a master of everything. Or at least that's the impression I got from your description and from the Final Fantasy games.

I actually know little to nothing about the duskblade other than that I've heard both complaints and compliments that its overpowered from friends who have the PHB2.

Prestige class options are definately powerful things. You're absolutely right. However, you can't use that for your base class. A base class should be compared to other base classes.

But you may be on to something there. This class as it is may do well as a Prestige class. Because it is slightly overpowered, it's already on par with other prestige classes. All you'd have to do is cut off level 11+ and put requirements.

Necromas
2007-12-31, 12:01 PM
I take it you don't think doublecast is as strong as I do. I cannot tell you how easily one could wipe out creatures of twice their challenge rating with doublecast and quickened spell. Let alone how much doublecast + bonus fighter feats is more powerful than anything else I've seen in the spellcasting base classes. Wouldn't be a big deal had you chosen a crappier spell list or put less spells but you chose a really good one so it makes a big difference.

I fail to see how quicken spell makes doublecast overpowered, when the red mage has to take 2 feats just to be able to prepare quickened spells, and would only be able to quicken level 1 or 2 spells by burning their highest level spell slots. Doublecast + Fighter feats don't compliment eachother at all because one only benefits the caster focus and one only benefits the fighter focus. I looked at the duskblades quick cast ability and purposely made doublecast weaker because with quick cast they really are getting free quickened spells.

I also wasn't aware that the warmage spell list was considered so powerful (that's where I mainly based the black magic from), well actually I have seen a couple people try to claim a warmage was overpowered but they just got laughed at by people who pointed out their spell list and the complete lack of anything but nukes.

arkanis
2007-12-31, 01:20 PM
Burning spell slots is no big deal for a caster who gets massive amounts of spells per day as this class does. Why don't you try testing it if its not so clear to you. Might make them clearer. That's what I do when I'm in doubt about variant material.

This class has a lot of everything, I'd say that does compliment one another. If you're insistent not to improve or edit it that's fine, but don't get upset about it when people critique or correct you or offer suggestions. I'm not saying your material isn't good, on the contrary its a great idea. It's just overpowered a bit as it is.

If a warmage has a specialized spell list then they're balanced in the fact that they can't buff themselves in addition to having the increased battle statistics of the class. Or so I'd assume on that point anyway. I've gotten mixed messages about warmages but I never took much interest in battle arcanists since a good buff cleric should do better in battle. That is assuming they don't give the arcanists heal spells and good fortitude saves and/or bonus fighter feats (or something of equivalent battle-value). Then the clerics and druids would become obsolete by comparison in nearly every way. Heck, every base class would become obsolete by comparison except the stealth-based ones.

Necromas
2007-12-31, 03:07 PM
Then the clerics and druids would become obsolete by comparison in nearly every way. Heck, every base class would become obsolete by comparison except the stealth-based ones.

Are you saying that half fighter bonus feats make a cleric obsolete that can buff himself to a point that makes him a better fighter then a real fighter? Or a druid that can wildshape into forms well beyond a real fighters capability? Let's not forget they are still much stronger casters as well (even if a red mage gets as many spells per day as a lower level sorcerer) and are simply loaded with other abilities.

P.S. Modified/clarified doublecast and armored mage.

Neek
2007-12-31, 03:53 PM
Alright. I'll throw in my two cents. We're looking at a Jack-of-all-Trades in crunch, not flavor. You've presented a caster-class with combat abilities... hrm... Your idea is to blend healing with blasting with sword-swinging; a very interesting combination!


The HD is a bit too high for my taste. It's the same as a Cleric, Monk, and Ranger. I don't see it being a problem, it's just different. Let's see how the abilities compare.
We have 3/4 BAB progression, which is the same as Bard, Cleric, Monk, and Rogue. It's not bad for the flavor.
The saves are high Will, but low Fort and Ref. This is the same as a Wizard and Sorcerer, but somehow I feel that isn't justified by the fluff. A Red Mage is portrayed much flashier, as last as I can recall. Add Reflex save in there as high.
Skill points seems appropriate. 4's not high; there's no chance a Red Mage will compare as a skill monkey to Rogues or Bards. I've no complaints about the skills themselves.
Weapon proficiencies[/b aren't bad. I'm not a fan of the "choose which martial weapons you're proficient in" (only one NPC class gives you one martial weapon proficiency). I'd just list some weapons that they're proficient in, but that's not necessary. Three's enough, so not bad here.
[b]Armored Mage is a standard gish ability. Moving on.
Fighter feats aren't a bad prize. I don't think they're overpowering, just that they don't fit with the flavor: I don't see Red Mages being built on feat chains, but appropriate equipment and spell selection. You also give them Weapon Specialization (if I read that right, a level sixth level Red Mage classifies as a 4th level Fighter); I'd remove this. Weapon Specialization rests for Fighters.
Double Cast makes Red Mages interesting. Casting two spells that have a casting time equal to or less than one standard action, but greater than a swift action (duh). It doesn't progress horribly in uses per day.
There's no grand capstone for this class, but with caster levels added to it, not a problem.
Spell progression isn't bad. It's better than the Bards, however. How the Red Mage knows spells irks me. He gains two every level, as per Wizard. But he lack the versatile Spell Book a Wizard has. Spontaneous casters don't have a free-form spells per level. I'd feel more comfortable with a chart similar to the Bard's or Sorcerer's.
Red Mage spells is also irksome. The list is built on flavor, not functionality. It would be nice to have a much broader list to chose from; there are more "Black Mage" spells for D&D than there are "White Mage" spells.


It isn't a class I hate. Rather, I enjoy it. Red Mages are a fun class to toy with, because it allows you to create the ultimate knower of all, master of none. The only true recommendation I can make is drop the Fighter level equivalence for Fighter Feats and don't dump the D&D spell list into Final Fantasy concepts.

BloodyAngel
2007-12-31, 04:17 PM
For a game I was running, I made up an NPC who was basically supposed to be a Red Mage. In actuality, he was a Cleric/Warmage/Mystic Theurge. A cleric of Sharess technically, but that has less to do with mechanics and more to do with his character and backstory.

Regardless... by getting the Practiced spellcaster feat twice, and using cleric buffs prior to entering combat... you can play a damned fine jack-of-all trades class that functions best in a support role. Just like Red Mage is supposed to. The NPC in question was invaluable in the mid-leveled game that he was a part of (it only ran up to level 12, so I'm not sure how sharply his use would have declined). He was backup healer and saved many a life, giving the party's main cleric more breathing room to do her thing without having to worry about healing the party's knight/paladin everty round. (She used Test of Mettle with reckless abandon) If push came to shove, his full caster level with low-leveled spells meant that he could huck around magic missiles and Lesser orbs of *insert element here* and contribute to the damage-dealing... without overshadowing the party's arcane caster.

I agree that your home-brewed Red Mage might be a bit too potent. It's basically a full caster with less spells known, (Though more than a sorcerer, I would add) and less spells to choose from, but a very nice list to use regardless. It also has the HP of a Cleric and fighter feats. It's basically a warmage with healing spells, better HP, bonus feats, and a choice of better weapons. If you wanted to balance it out... change it's unique spell list to a mush of the duskblade and paladin lists... change the weapons to ALL martial weapons, and give them medium armor.

What you'll end up with is a less heavily armored paladin, lacking his extra HP and class perks... who can throw explosive spells, and has more feats. Unlike the wizard, he can't do much in the way of area effect spells... but he can heal and buff, and can unleash a nasty magic hurt on single targets. That's the best I can suggest.

arkanis
2008-01-01, 02:01 AM
Are you saying that half fighter bonus feats make a cleric obsolete that can buff himself to a point that makes him a better fighter then a real fighter? Or a druid that can wildshape into forms well beyond a real fighters capability? Let's not forget they are still much stronger casters as well (even if a red mage gets as many spells per day as a lower level sorcerer) and are simply loaded with other abilities.

P.S. Modified/clarified doublecast and armored mage.
No no. I said IF they added healing and buff spells to that combo it would. Since that's what makes clerics and druids such good combat casters.

See, since warmages don't have buff spells and only have "nuke" spells as you say, then there's no problem with their improved HD, attack bonus, etc. because they can't stack those benefits with a spell.

IF they could THEN it would be overpowered.