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Talic
2007-12-30, 01:35 AM
Ok, everyone's been ragging on the monk, so I thought I'd give everyone the opportunity to help a monk shine. Using any non-diplocheese, non-infinite method, build a character (all classes must be monk or monk-themed PrC) that can singlehandedly, and reliably, defeat in single combat, an....

Ancient White Dragon.

Use any level you like up to 20.

Please utilize the balance skill in your builds, as most white dragons love icy lairs, given their icewalking ability.

RULES:
* Monk is the ONLY base class allowed.
* All PrC's must be explicitly monk-themed. Any PrC that "could be" monk-themed with proper choices is not enough.
* It must be Single combat. The dragon isn't taking leadership, neither are you.
* No Diplo-cheese.
* Nothing infinite.
* No Use Magic Device wins.
* All magic items must be from sources published by WotC.
* Levels are 1-20, and lowest level reliable build wins.
* Character does get WBL, no more than 25% WBL on any single item.
* Alternate races are allowed, but let's try to make the class shine, not the race. Lowest total ECL wins.

Cuddly
2007-12-30, 01:40 AM
Suggested rules modfications:
No UMD or custom magic items
Get rid of the 75% monk levels, so you can take 10 or 15 levels in monk PrCs.

Talic
2007-12-30, 01:50 AM
Original post edited, and suggestions factored in. Good idea, both of them.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-12-30, 01:58 AM
Something like Factotum - 3, Monk -3, Psionic Fist - 10, Tattooed Monk - 3, Sword Sage -1 without transparency.

Talic
2007-12-30, 02:00 AM
Something like Factotum - 3, Monk -3, Psionic Fist - 10, Tattooed Monk - 3, Sword Sage -1 without transparency.

Is Factotum monk-themed? And Sword Sage is neither Monk, nor a monk-themed PrC.

13_CBS
2007-12-30, 02:18 AM
Is Factotum monk-themed? And Sword Sage is neither Monk, nor a monk-themed PrC.

It can be if the Sword Sage is unarmed.

Alleine
2007-12-30, 02:25 AM
Factotum is the ultimate jack of all trades, and can be monk themed if it wants/needs to be.

Kaelik
2007-12-30, 02:57 AM
I will enter with the Ultimate Monk (adding a new rule of what not to do) and the perfect defense of the "Core is balanced" fan club (IE Giamoco).

Monk 20. Maxed Charisma.

Leadership. Improved Cohort.

Wizard 19 Cohort battles White Dragon.

CompositeSanta
2007-12-30, 03:02 AM
^
He said singlehandedly in single combat.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-12-30, 03:04 AM
Is Factotum monk-themed? And Sword Sage is neither Monk, nor a monk-themed PrC.

It depends on where you draw the line. I was responding to the original post which I understood to allow up to 25% non monk levels.

IMO most people can build a monk capable of defeating most specific monsters in a combat by using suggested wealth by level. The 3 Factotum levels mostly give the PC monk a boost or an edge in most other unknown encounters by taking advantage of utilizing Inspiration Points during the encounter.

IMO utilizing Inspiration Points with the Factotum special abilitie in combination with existing Monk abilities is similar to taking Rogue levels and having Sneak Attack stack with Unarmed Damage using the Ascetic Rogue feat, there is a nice synergy between the class abilities.

I disagree the Monk is the original unarmed specialist Martial Adept who can also use weapons.

The Sword Sage is another type of martial adept who can be an unarmed martial adept.

Xefas
2007-12-30, 03:04 AM
^
He said singlehandedly in single combat.

Well, Leadership is a feat, and the cohort doesn't even factor into XP division like a separate entity would.

Plus, that's probably the most effective Monk build possible without an infinite loop.

Talic
2007-12-30, 03:33 AM
Factotum is not specifically monk themed, therefore it is out. This test is here to help monk shine. Not to fall back on the same crutches people use for every character build.

And single combat does mean single combat. Take leadership if you want, but assume all your cronies are washing dishes at your monk bed and breakfast.

If it is a base class and its title does not start with "M" and end in "onk", it's out. This includes Sword sage, and all other ToB base classes.

If it is a prestige class and is not explicitly for monk, then it is out. We're not using monk to complement another class. Monk IS the class being used here.

Yami
2007-12-30, 03:38 AM
Wait what!? Swordsage is not monk themed?

Take a good long look at that class. Maybe even play it a bit. Swordsage is the monk of ToB. Just like warblade is the barbarian and crusader the paladin. Fighter of course, still gets relegated to 2 level dips, but I digress.

Talic
2007-12-30, 03:47 AM
Wait what!? Swordsage is not monk themed?

Take a good long look at that class. Maybe even play it a bit. Swordsage is the monk of ToB. Just like warblade is the barbarian and crusader the paladin. Fighter of course, still gets relegated to 2 level dips, but I digress.

The point is not whether Sword sage is the "monk of ToB". This test is specifically to try to show some good in the MONK class. Not the Monk of ToB. Therefore, the only base class allowed in the Challenge is Monk.

We're not arguing if Swordsages make better monks than monks. They do. We all know this. That's not the point of the challenge. The challenge is seeing what you can do with an handicap. This is your chance to shine. Don't fall back on the power classes. The spirit of this challenge is making a bad class look good. That's what the goal is.

Not whether or not Sword Sage is monk themed.

mabriss lethe
2007-12-30, 04:01 AM
I'm thinking ratling monk 20 Lawful evil

exotic weapon proficiency with tail spikes.
Multi-whatever fighting that seems to fit best with the DM.
fiery fists, lots of extra stunning. ability focus (stunning fist) Vile ki strike.
flaming burst gauntlet and a curse spewing tailspike., vile weapon ring, (maybe...) A basic suite of protective items.

max ranks in tumble, jump, balance and whatever else I feel like filling in the blanks.

theory: lots of attacks per round with minimized penalties. 1st round fiery strikes and curse spewing, second round, stunning fist. lather, rinse, repeat.

There are some grey areas about how many attacks, etc. (haven't seen dragon mag's updated ratlings, so...shrugs.)

Nebo_
2007-12-30, 04:43 AM
Since this is level 20 and not ECL 20, my entrant is an Ancient Gold Wyrm Monk 20.

Talic
2007-12-30, 05:16 AM
Sigh. Some people just don't understand the concept behind "making a bad class shine". The race is doing all the work. While alternate races ARE allowed, please, please keep it reasonable. I left them open so that you all can run illumians, half-ogres, and the like without worrying overmuch about ECL adjustments. Try not to abuse that overmuch, k?

Talic
2007-12-30, 05:20 AM
I'm thinking ratling monk 20 Lawful evil

exotic weapon proficiency with tail spikes.
Multi-whatever fighting that seems to fit best with the DM.
fiery fists, lots of extra stunning. ability focus (stunning fist) Vile ki strike.
flaming burst gauntlet and a curse spewing tailspike., vile weapon ring, (maybe...) A basic suite of protective items.

max ranks in tumble, jump, balance and whatever else I feel like filling in the blanks.

theory: lots of attacks per round with minimized penalties. 1st round fiery strikes and curse spewing, second round, stunning fist. lather, rinse, repeat.

There are some grey areas about how many attacks, etc. (haven't seen dragon mag's updated ratlings, so...shrugs.)

Interesting, and I think the first serious entry. Hitting the AC might still be a bit rough, but doable. Question... Why Vile? It always seemed to me that vile damage was really only good for long term. If you're planning on wrecking shop, vile ain't quite as hot...

Kurald Galain
2007-12-30, 05:21 AM
If it is a base class and its title does not start with "M" and end in "onk", it's out.

Isn't there a Master Gronk class out there somewhere? :smallbiggrin:

Anyway, the two obvious solutions to this puzzle are (1) polymorph cheese, and (2) using as many levels as possible in some combination of races and templates. In the last monk contest, it turned out that the most effective "monk" was one who tried the hardest at being "not a monk".

Talic
2007-12-30, 05:38 AM
Isn't there a Master Gronk class out there somewhere? :smallbiggrin:

Anyway, the two obvious solutions to this puzzle are (1) polymorph cheese, and (2) using as many levels as possible in some combination of races and templates. In the last monk contest, it turned out that the most effective "monk" was one who tried the hardest at being "not a monk".

And in this one, the biggest goal is: "Make monk look good." I want to see if someone can find a way to cheese the monk abilities, not rely on the same tried and true cheese.

Kurald Galain
2007-12-30, 05:53 AM
And in this one, the biggest goal is: "Make monk look good." I want to see if someone can find a way to cheese the monk abilities, not rely on the same tried and true cheese.

Yes, I get that, but someone will be along shortly to tell you that the game is soooo balanced because monks can polymorph.

Frankly, I don't think this challenge can be won by fighting fair; the monk does not seem to have much of a chance against the dragon, except by resorting to leadership cheese / gating cheese / poly cheese or other kinds of gouda.

Kurald Galain
2007-12-30, 06:04 AM
For the record, here are the dragon's stats (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#whiteDragon).

Some highlights: 375 hp, +39 attack, +49 base grapple, saves 23/17/19, and a frightful presence DC of 27. AC 37, casts as 9th level sorcerer. Note also that it has a Burrow speed.

In particular, this means that Stunning Fist is not going to work unless you invest heavily in wisdom. With a DC of 20 + wis mod (at level 20) against the dragon's save of 23+1d20...

(edit) This means that if you end your turn within 10 feet of the dragon, you are subject to its full attack routine of bite (14), claw (12), claw (12), wing (9), wing (9), tail (22), for an average total of 78 damage. Since its BAB is more than likely higher than your armor class, these will all hit. Plus, the dragon has Power Attack listed as a favored feat, which means it can, say, take -10 to hit, still hit pretty much automatically, and up the damage to 138 average.

Assuming 16 con, the monk has 164 hit points. It would seem that getting close to the dragon is not such a viable strategy.

Talic
2007-12-30, 06:20 AM
Considering that a level 20 monk has a BAB of 15, that AC of 37 will be a tough nut to crack without at least a +10 in other bonuses... Quite attainable. Monks have high movement, so that can be a defense, maybe with spring attack? Unarmed strike is perhaps one of the only attack styles which benefits both from Weapon Finesse AND Power Attack.

Monks have:
Good saves
High number of attacks
High movement
Lots of immunities

If you can reliably get to melee, then perhaps something can be done. Bear in mind also, ToB maneuvers are ok to use, by non ToB characters.

WBL items can more than make up for some of the dragon's good stuff...

Things to think about:
Dealing with Fear.
Dealing with Breath Weapon.
Preventing Full Attacks.
Dealing with HP.

Now, the first two can be handled by a good cloak of resistance, as the monk's saves are already pretty stout.

Staying out of Full Attack range will deal with number 3...

How to get damage up, with 1 attack per round?

Fenix_of_Doom
2007-12-30, 06:24 AM
How to get damage up, with 1 attack per round?

House rule flurry as a standard action?

Talic
2007-12-30, 06:29 AM
House rule flurry as a standard action?

For two attacks, sounds reasonable. Not for Full Attack.

Kurald Galain
2007-12-30, 06:49 AM
It would seem that the dragon can nullify the monk's speed through its Solid Fog ability, usable three times per day. Also, if you're going to play the Spring Attack game, note that the dragon's fly speed is higher than the monk's.

White dragons also prefer sudden assaults. They have decent stealth skills, are liable to ambush from under water or underground (burrow speed), and have enough sorcerer levels to take Greater Invisibility.

I believe that if the monk can "reliably get to melee", then so can the dragon - and the dragon easily outdamages the monk.

(edit) another nasty dragon strategy is to simply land on the monk, possibly after trapping him in a web or solid fog or something. This means the monk must make a DC 31 ref save or be pinned, and take an average of 24 automatic damage per round.

MammonAzrael
2007-12-30, 06:58 AM
Staying out of full attack range will be probably trigger some AoO, might need to handle that.

Don't forget that the Monk gains SR at lv 13: 10+Class Level. a SR 30 neuters any offensive spells from the dragon.

A Large lv 20 Monk has base unarmed damage of 4d8, which is nice. How much is it to get +5 Greater Magic Fang Permanenced onto the Monk?

Where can I find how much gp you get for items?

A Ring of Energy Resistance(Cold) could be worth looking into, though the Monk does get Improved Evasion, and great saves.
Boots of the Winterlands can help counter the grease effect from Freezing Fog.
Ioun Stones can provide another small boost.
Manuel/Tome of X?
Cloak of Resistance. Amulet of Mighty Fists/Natural Armor/Wisdom (maybe combine them). Bracers of Armor. Yawn.

I'm assuming Vow of Poverty help also defeats the purpose of the challenge.

Talic
2007-12-30, 07:02 AM
It would seem that the dragon can nullify the monk's speed through its Solid Fog ability, usable three times per day. Also, if you're going to play the Spring Attack game, note that the dragon's fly speed is higher than the monk's.

White dragons also prefer sudden assaults. They have decent stealth skills, are liable to ambush from under water or underground (burrow speed), and have enough sorcerer levels to take Greater Invisibility.

I believe that if the monk can "reliably get to melee", then so can the dragon - and the dragon easily outdamages the monk.

True, but the monk isn't trying to prevent all melee. Just charges and full attacks. Through some WBL items, I'm sure you can increase his survivability, and such. Since the att bonus of the dragon is ridiculous, perhaps things that offer miss chances? Blindsense doesn't negate concealment, after all.

You bring a valid point. The monk needs to boost damage. Ideas?

Kurald Galain
2007-12-30, 07:02 AM
Don't forget that the Monk gains SR at lv 13: 10+Class Level. a SR 30 neuters any offensive spells from the dragon.
Except for conjuration effects, which don't allow spell resistance. The grease effect isn't what matters for solid fog - the lockdown is.

I don't think energy resistance is all that necessary, because a white dragon's breath weapon is only 10d6 damage (as opposed to 20d10 from his red cousin).

I don't think VOP defeats the purpose, really. It is commonly said to be not all that great, except for druids, warlocks and sorcerers. I don't have the BOED at hand, but it would seem it makes it difficult for you to e.g. fly or see invisible opponents - such as our flying invisible white dragon.

(edit) while miss chances sound like a good strategy, note that the dragon has Blindsense.

Talic
2007-12-30, 07:06 AM
Staying out of full attack range will be probably trigger some AoO, might need to handle that.

Don't forget that the Monk gains SR at lv 13: 10+Class Level. a SR 30 neuters any offensive spells from the dragon.

A Large lv 20 Monk has base unarmed damage of 4d8, which is nice. How much is it to get +5 Greater Magic Fang Permanenced onto the Monk?

Where can I find how much gp you get for items?

A Ring of Energy Resistance(Cold) could be worth looking into, though the Monk does get Improved Evasion, and great saves.
Boots of the Winterlands can help counter the grease effect from Freezing Fog.
Ioun Stones can provide another small boost.
Manuel/Tome of X?
Cloak of Resistance. Amulet of Mighty Fists/Natural Armor/Wisdom (maybe combine them). Bracers of Armor. Yawn.

I'm assuming Vow of Poverty help also defeats the purpose of the challenge.

DMG has WBL guidelines. Cloak of Resistance +5 is pretty much a must, as it's dual purpose on the dragon. Ring of Free action fits, and protects against any attempt to stop the monk. Ring of Invisibility, perhaps, to grant at least a 50% concealment, when maneuvering between attacks? Perhaps something that doesn't dismiss itself every attack.

Vow of poverty wouldn't be too out of line, though your WBL goes to 0.

I wouldn't go too heavy into cold resistance, as the dragon's breath weapon isn't likely to be used (inefficient against single enemies compared to attacks, likely to save for 0 damage anyway, and 50% even if he doesn't).

As far as AoO goes, either Tumble (monk skill) or Spring Attack would work well.

Kurald Galain
2007-12-30, 07:15 AM
Ring of Invisibility, perhaps, to grant at least a 50% concealment, when maneuvering between attacks?

That wouldn't work all that well. The dragon notes an invisible creature is nearby (through blindsense), then casts See Invisible, which lasts longer than the fight does.

Talic
2007-12-30, 07:17 AM
That wouldn't work all that well. The dragon notes an invisible creature is nearby (through blindsense), then casts See Invisible, which lasts longer than the fight does.

If his limited sorceror spells include it, sure. That said, there are other ways to get concealment. Smoke, for example. Items that do illusion effects. etc.

Nebo_
2007-12-30, 07:27 AM
The dragon can cast as a sorcerer. That means it can make use of scrolls - many scrolls due to its vast, vast wealth. Played intelligently, the dragon will win.

I really don't see a point to this exercise. Monks are weak, get over it.

Kurald Galain
2007-12-30, 07:27 AM
If his limited sorceror spells include it, sure. That said, there are other ways to get concealment. Smoke, for example. Items that do illusion effects. etc.

Yep. I'd suggest those other effects, then.

The dragon knows 5/4/3/2 spells. While what he picks is up to debate, I'd say that for a beast that enjoys guerrilla warfare, any "core" effect that causes or counters invisibility would be very fitting.

So. The irony is that the monk, who is often falsely claimed to be the master of grappling, will need a ring of free action to avoid being grappled to death by the dragon.

I agree that the +5 save cloak is a must. The monk also needs a way of detecting an invisible, hidden, or burrowed dragon, because that is whitey's common strategy. A way of flying is also necessary, because the dragon is not obliged to actually land. And an enchanted gauntlet of some sort, because you simply don't deal enough damage otherwise. How much gold does that require, and what does it posit for the monk's minimum level?

(edit) I'd disallow the dragon from using scrolls, frankly because I find the image of a huge magical beast reading a tiny piece of paper to be quite ludicrous.

(edit) The dragon can max out eight skills to a +33 bonus each. In particular, with his class skills, this means he can diplomance the monk :smallbiggrin: or UMD anything he likes (but let's not cheese that). It also means he has a Hide check of +25, after accounting for his size. The monk had best take up spotting as a hobby.

lord_khaine
2007-12-30, 07:36 AM
claiming a monk is The master of grappling is a false claim, saying he is A master of grappling is not.

but since it actualy state in the description of the dragon that it does not favor grappling, and since it normaly dont have improved grapple then i dont think the ring is nececary.

Talic
2007-12-30, 07:38 AM
1st, dragons don't prefer magical treasures. They actually prefer nonmagical pieces of value to magical ones (Source: Draconomicon). Go figure. So likely no arcane libraries of the ages there. Some scrolls, perhaps, but not an organized, easily referenced trove of scrolls conveniently located in the haversack under the left wing.

To Kurald Galain:
I agree that guerilla spells will be favored. See invisibility is a likely choice. Invisibility, possibly so. Certainly damage spells won't be favored, given the white's formidable damage abilities. Multiple layers of detection foiling may be in order, including perhaps the feat to foil special senses?

Talic
2007-12-30, 07:39 AM
claiming a monk is The master of grappling is a false claim, saying he is A master of grappling is not.

but since it actualy state in the description of the dragon that it does not favor grappling, and since it normaly dont have improved grapple then i dont think the ring is nececary.

Ring also bypasses the dragon's Solid Fog ability.

Kurald Galain
2007-12-30, 07:45 AM
claiming a monk is The master of grappling is a false claim, saying he is A master of grappling is not.
Both are completely false. But that's a matter for another thread.


but since it actualy state in the description of the dragon that it does not favor grappling, and since it normaly dont have improved grapple then i dont think the ring is nececary.
You forget the dragon's crush attack.

lord_khaine
2007-12-30, 07:55 AM
Ring also bypasses the dragon's Solid Fog ability

ok thats another matter.

but talking about grapple, i think its possibel to make a halfgiant monk 12/psionic fist 8 that can beat the dragon in a grapple.


+4 improved grapple
+10 from augumentet expansion
+8 from augumentet grip of iron (with practiced manifester)
+4 half giant
+12 bab
+10 str
gives a grapple bonus of +48, with the advantage of flurry of blows, this is more than enough to beat the dragon.

not to mention that the feat weakening touch would give the dragon a -3 penalty to grapple if the monk hits with it, or that the monk could have taken expandet knowlede and picked up metamorphis if he had chosen to go for it.

Edit. the monk would usualy be to big for a crush attack, Crush attacks are effective only against opponents three or more size categories smaller than the dragon

Armads
2007-12-30, 08:01 AM
Monk 10/Psionic Fist 10

Pick up Expanded Knowledge (metamorphosis), Metamorphic Transfer, abuse as you wish.

Renx
2007-12-30, 08:16 AM
Ehg... how exactly do you grapple a dragon? :P Souds like God of War to me.

A Vorpal Kama, and a Ring of Spell Storing with that silly cleric spell that allows you to make any roll into a nat 20. Instant dead dragon.

Ring of Spell Storing, with 5 lesser shivering touches for 5d6 dex damage. Hmm no wait, they're cast at the minimum spellcaster level, so they'll only last 1 round each. A shivering touch (3d6) that lasts 5 turns + 2x lesser shivering touches. Just hit two times with touch...

meh, you'll still have an unconscious dragon for max 4 effective rounds. That's 20 (24 with flurry of blows) attacks at +4 (as the dragon is Helpless), but you'll be getting +8 or so from the size difference anyway, or one Coup de Grace per round ie automatic critical. At 2d10+str a blow you just might kill it :P

Kurald Galain
2007-12-30, 08:24 AM
but talking about grapple, i think its possibel to make a halfgiant monk 12/psionic fist 8 that can beat the dragon in a grapple.
That's still less than the dragon's base grapple score, and you didn't account for the various penalties that Expansion gives, nor for the Half Giant's level adjustment, nor for the fact that if you get a full attack, so does the dragon (which has a good chance of downing you in one round).

This means that once more the way to make the monk effective is to make him as little a monk as possible, in this case by making him a spellcaster. However, given the fist's low manifester level, the dragon can wait a few rounds for his spells to time out, or, assuming magic/psionic transparency, dispel them.

(edit) going Vorpal would be a viable strategy, I suppose. However, shivering touch is as cheesy as polymorph, and really has nothing whatsoever to do with monks.

Renx
2007-12-30, 08:50 AM
(edit) going Vorpal would be a viable strategy, I suppose. However, shivering touch is as cheesy as polymorph, and really has nothing whatsoever to do with monks.

Not my fault they put a flat 10 on all dragon dexes ;)

//Edit1: It's a viable weak spot. And you still have to have a beefed-up monk so he can actually kill the dragon in 4 rounds or less.

F.L.
2007-12-30, 10:04 AM
Ring of Spell Storing, with 5 lesser shivering touches for 5d6 dex damage. Hmm no wait, they're cast at the minimum spellcaster level, so they'll only last 1 round each. A shivering touch (3d6) that lasts 5 turns + 2x lesser

White dragons are immune to [cold] spells. Guess what descriptor shivering tough has?

lord_khaine
2007-12-30, 10:46 AM
That's still less than the dragon's base grapple score, and you didn't account for the various penalties that Expansion gives, nor for the Half Giant's level adjustment, nor for the fact that if you get a full attack, so does the dragon (which has a good chance of downing you in one round).

yes it is a little lower than the dragons score, though it should proberly be possibel to increase it even more if nececary, and though Expansion gives some penalties, they dont affect the grapple bonus so nothing is forgotten there.

and i didnt forget anything about level adjustment either, if you read the rules of the challenge you will see it says 20 levels of monk, and make a specifik comment about ECL.

also Lions charge will make sure that the psion gets the first full attack, giving a good chance of getting the dragon pinned before it can make its own full attack.


This means that once more the way to make the monk effective is to make him as little a monk as possible, in this case by making him a spellcaster. However, given the fist's low manifester level, the dragon can wait a few rounds for his spells to time out, or, assuming magic/psionic transparency, dispel them

well the dragon has a caster level of 9, versus a manifester level of 12, combined with a ring of counterspelling and the monk should be pretty save from dispelling.
also waiting a few rounds wont help the dragon anything as the buffs last a bit longer than that.

also i would disagree about this making the char less a monk and more a caster, since it is relying on some of the basic parts of the monk, and then just augument them with manifesting to be able to actualy grapple a huge opponent.

Kurald Galain
2007-12-30, 11:24 AM
Okay, so you're claiming that an epic monk with eight spellcaster levels can grapple an ancient dragon. Even so, there's a number of things wrong with your plan.

First, you haven't explained how you would locate the hidden, invisible, burrowed dragon.
Second, you require two rounds to buff yourself; the dragon can of course act during those rounds.
Third, your buffs last one round per manifester level, i.e. less than a minute, which means the dragon can easily outlast them if he really wants.
Fourth, if you succeed in pinning the dragon, he may escape the pin by making an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. The dragon still gets six attacks per round. That gives him a good chance to succeed, letting him damage you with the remaining attacks.
Fifth, from its wording, it is unclear whether the ring of counterspelling works on area effect spells, so you need the DM to rule in your favor there. Assuming it doesn't work, I'm not sure how your manifester level is 12 rather than 8, but even if it is, that gives the dragon a better than even chance to dispel at least one of your buffs.

And yes, you are making your character less a monk and more a caster. You even admit so yourself, because you say in your post that "the psion gets the first full attack".

It would seem that going vorpal is still a better approach.

F.L. - good catch on the shivering touch :)

Arbitrarity
2007-12-30, 11:44 AM
ML 12 is probably from practiced manifester. Much more useful than practiced spellcaster, especially with prestiege casting.

I think a vampire shadow sun ninja (using Balance of Light and Dark) would be interesting. Eat 2 + 1/hit negative levels, flurry, snap kick, TWF, haste, and vampire slam, for 10 attacks. 14 negative levels in one full attack, and start chain-stunning.

(I know this doesn't actually help monk much, and LA is pretty obscene. However, it is thematically probable!)

Finding the dragon is a different story :smallbiggrin:

Drider
2007-12-30, 12:30 PM
White dragons are immune to [cold] spells. Guess what descriptor shivering tough has?

Fire?
Why does the monk need to beat a cr 20 ALONE to validate his existance, maybe a lower cr?


...Electric?

EphU437
2007-12-30, 01:17 PM
What attributes? Point buy - if so, how many?

Arbitrarity
2007-12-30, 01:52 PM
Now, let's try a "martial adept" type monk, without swordsage levels. Incidentally, magic items qualifying for prerequisites is sad, yet funny.

Jermaline (MM2) (LA +0) Monk 10/Shadow Sun Ninja 10.

Tiny Size.
(assumes 32 pt buy)
Str 3
Dex 38
Con 20
Int 6
Wis 32
Cha 2

Well, he's a tiny, weak, ugly moron. So? :smallbiggrin:
550K
Tome of Dexterity +5, Tome of Wisdom +4, Permanency GMF (CL 20), Amulet of Health and Wisdom (combined, using MIC pricing), ring of Freedom of Movement, Gloves of Dexterity +6/Shadow Hands (Master, One With Shadow), Boots of Haste/Slippers of Setting Sun (Master, Fool's Strike), Wings of Flying, vest of resistance +5, Bracers of armor +6 (I THINK this is a light load, but I'm not sure :/. Meh, throw a belt of giant strength on if needed.)

1) Martial Study (Counter Charge)
3) Weapon Finesse
6) Martial Study (Shadow Jaunt)
9) Snap Kick
12) Falling Sun Attack
15) Shadow Blade
18) Rapid Stunning

Bonus Feats: Stunning Fist, Deflect Arrows, Improved Trip.

Manuvers:
Items/Feats: One with Shadow, Counter Charge, Fool's Strike, Shadow Jaunt
Shadow Sun Ninja: IL 6: Strength Draining Strike
IL 8: Strike of the Broken Shield
IL 11: Ghost Blade
IL 14: Hydra Slaying Strike

Manuvers Readied: Counter Charge, Cloak of Deception, (These have to be, as they're item based), Ghost Blade, Hydra Slaying Strike, Strength Draining Strike

Stance: Giant Killing Style

Qualification by magic items, which were later upgraded. (cheeeese)

DC on stunning fist is 32, which is 40% failure. AC 50. Attacks at +34/+34 (incl on strikes, as snap kick is awesome), 2d6+19, or full attack of +34/+34/+34/+29/+24. Add 2 to hit if opponent is small or larger, and +4 to damage.

Speed 100 ft. Reach: N/a (120 ft fly (good))

46 skill points
Tumble +30 (14 ranks)
Jump +31 (5 ranks)
Balance +21 (5 ranks)
Hide +35 (12 ranks)
Move Silently +35 (20 ranks)

Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike, Improved Evasion, Ki Strike (Magic, Lawful), Still Mind, Purity of Body, Wholeness of Body, Slow Fall 50 ft, Touch of the Shadow Sun, Flame of the Shadow Sun, Light Within Darkness, Void of the Shadow Sun, Child of Shadow and Light, Balance of Light and Dark.

HP: 20d8+100 (190 hp).
Fort: +24
Ref: +33
Will: +30

Tactics: Somehow, he finds the dragon (no comment, I'm thinking hire a wizard :smallwink: ). Win initiative (+14 vs +0? No contest), activate Balance of Light and Dark, and wail on him. If you have to move, do so, and use Hydra Slaying Strike, along with a stunning fist. Two hits with Snap Kick, and you are unlikely to miss. Two negative levels, so he has 45% failure on saving throw for the first fist, 50% for the second, almost 75% of being stunned. Also, you deal an average of 60 damage. If you stun him, Full attack flurry, stunning fist, keep draining levels, which will wipe him out for the rest of the fight. If he isn't stunned, his single counterattack has 50% chance of miss, if he does that. He'd be wiser to run. If he does so, hope he's in an enclosed space, so he can't :smallbiggrin: .

So long as the dragon doesn't have a buckler of heavy fortification :smallbiggrin:

Does incoporeality negate blindsense? If so, you could use One with the Shadow to sneak up, unleash your attack in surprise round, then full attack with stuns, level drains.

Also, where are we fighting, can I get surprise, how far apart are we, and how does the dragon react to having his life force drained, and being stunned?

Sad he can't keep this up, with Balance of Light and Dark being 1/day. Ah well. He can use other abilities on things without blindsense.

Incidentally, edited some skills to deal with flatfootedness on ice.

Kaelik
2007-12-30, 03:24 PM
Can anyone with Book of Exalted Deeds let me know how Touch of Golden Ice works?

You could build a Monk with Pounce (Item? Psionic Lions charge from Psionic Fist? Feats? 1 level Barb dip if it were allowed.) Then get Touch of Golden Ice, Then get Rapid Stunning (I think Touch of Golden Ice is a stunning feat.) Then get something to make all your attacks Touch attacks. (Wraithstrike? Anyway to pull that off?) Get some item of flying and See invis. Fly into the air. Full Attack Dragon when he comes within range, five attacks that all auto hit (Why would he Shimmering Scales when facing I guy standing around trying to punch it?)

Do more then 10 dex damage.

Alternatively, just fly up in the air, let the Dragon close and Standard action attack you. Now you don't need Pounce, just Full attack. Note that this fails if Touch of Golden Ice is cold negated or if it requires a Save (or well, pump Wisdom really high.)

Arbitrarity
2007-12-30, 03:29 PM
It's a flat DC 14 fort save, bypasses poison immunity, only works on evil creatures, and is supernatural. It deals 1d6+poisoned creature's charisma initial DEX damage, and 2d6+poisoned creature's charisma secondary damage.

It does a bit more damage to evil clerics, and elementals and undead.

In other words, not horrifyingly applicable. The save makes it inconsistient, unless you can make a LOT of attacks.

Requires 13 CON, and applies whenever you touch something.

FlyMolo
2007-12-30, 03:43 PM
Touch of Golden Ice says that when you touch an evil critter, it's affected by Golden Ice. Save DC 14, 1d6 dex initially, secondary 2d6 dex. (It's slightly unclear whether the subject gets a save. I lean towards not.)

Arbitrarity
2007-12-30, 03:48 PM
Touch of Golden Ice says that when you touch an evil critter, it's affected by Golden Ice. Save DC 14, 1d6 dex initially, secondary 2d6 dex. (It's slightly unclear whether the subject gets a save. I lean towards not.)

Actually, if you look at the descriptions for ravages, you'll note that
Any evil creature takes damage equal to that listed on either Table 3.2 (ravages) or Table 3.3 (Afflictions) plus its charisma bonus. An evil elemental or evil undead takes an extra point of damage, and an evil outsider or an evil cleric of an evil deity takes an extra 2 points of damage

deadseashoals
2007-12-30, 06:30 PM
Numbers McGee is nothing special. No polymorph cheese, nothing particularly abusive, just a psionic fist with a bunch of buffs and gear. Naked and without buffs, he's pretty much a weakling (a monk).

However, when things go Numbers' way, he can easily beat the dragon. His AC is 75, which means the dragon needs a natural 20 to hit him. His attack bonus is +38, and he gets four attacks at this bonus, which means he needs a 3 to hit the dragon before buffs. He can easily get these attacks in, thanks to a 90 foot fly speed with good maneuverability and hustle. His saves are +23/+36/+33, which means he can only fail against the dragon's abilities on a natural 1, and he has evasion for the breath weapon. He has a ring of freedom of movement for the grapple and solid fog, and if the dragon were to cheese out and use a scroll of forcecage on him, he can easily shadow jaunt or dimension door out of it.

Edit: He's also got touchsight for illusions and invisibility, since the dragon can do that. If the dragon tries to dispel his buffs, he's going to have to punch through Numbers' lavender and green ioun stone first, and even if he does, Numbers' manifester level is 16, so it's not easy.

Numbers McGee
LG Human Monk 11 / Psionic Fist 9
Str 12 Dex 32 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 28 Cha 8 (32-pt)
HD 20d8+40 (133 hp)

AC: 10 + 11 (armor) + 7 (shield) + 11 (Dex) + 9 (Wis) + 5 (natural) + 5 (deflection) + 6 (enhancement) + 6 (insight) + 1 (dodge) + 4 (monk) = 75

Saves:
+10 + 2 + 5 (resistance) + 6 (insight) = +23 Fort
+13 + 11 + 5 (resistance) + 6 (insight) + 1 (haste) = +36 Ref
+13 + 9 + 5 (resistance) + 6 (insight) = +33 Will

Attacks:
+14 + 11 (Dex) + 5 (enhancement) + 6 (insight) + 1 (haste) = +38/+38/+38/+38/+33/+28
4d8 + 1 (Str) + 11 (Dex) + 5 (enhancement) = 4d8+17 = 35

Psionics:
113 pp

1st - thicken skin, inertial armor, defensive precognition, force screen, offensive precognition
2nd - hustle
3rd - touchsight, danger sense
4th - psionic dimension door

Daily Routine (23):
inertial armor (15)
danger sense (8)

Precombat Routine (66):
thicken skin (16)
defensive precognition (16)
force screen (13)
offensive precognition (16)
touchsight (5)

Items:
red dragonhide bracers +5
ring of protection +5
ring of freedom of movement
vest of resistance +5
gloves of dexterity +6
periapt of wisdom +6
manual of quickness of action +5
tome of understanding +5
boots of speed
helm of teleport
belt of battle
wings of flying
pale green ioun stone
lavender and green ioun stone

Other:
permanencied greater magic fang (CL 20)

Feats:
Wild Talent
Overchannel
Talented
Practiced Manifester
Martial Study (shadow jaunt)
Martial Stance (child of shadow)
Shadow Blade
Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike)
Weapon Finesse

olelia
2007-12-30, 06:35 PM
Would Swallow hole be a problem? Or do white dragons not get that?

tyckspoon
2007-12-30, 06:47 PM
Swallow Whole attacks involve grappling, so the Ring of Freedom of Movement is sufficient protection. Even if it weren't, Psionic DimDoor or the Helm of Teleport would get him out of the dragon's stomach. Or he could just tank the damage for a few rounds and Flurry the dragon to death from the inside before making unopposed grapple/escape checks to climb back out. Numbers should be able to win handily, but then he's 2 levels above the recommended CR for an ancient white. What does he look like at level 18? Does the WBL drop cut out any truly necessary equipment?

Kurald Galain
2007-12-30, 06:51 PM
Why does the monk need to beat a cr 20 ALONE to validate his existance, maybe a lower cr?


Well, he could start with a blind, one-legged orc (http://goblinscomic.com/d/20050822.html)...

olelia
2007-12-30, 06:52 PM
Well no...I actually meant this challenge is quite easy with swallow hole...Dim door into the stomach and just make sure you have an acid resistance ring and kill the dragon from the inside since he couldn't touch you.

Edit..Dang..just read the post :smallannoyed:

deadseashoals
2007-12-30, 06:54 PM
Swallow Whole attacks involve grappling, so the Ring of Freedom of Movement is sufficient protection. Even if it weren't, Psionic DimDoor or the Helm of Teleport would get him out of the dragon's stomach. Or he could just tank the damage for a few rounds and Flurry the dragon to death from the inside before making unopposed grapple/escape checks to climb back out. Numbers should be able to win handily, but then he's 2 levels above the recommended CR for an ancient white. What does he look like at level 18? Does the WBL drop cut out any truly necessary equipment?

Oh, I was assuming it was a great wyrm... Well, Numbers has a ton of unnecessary crap. He only needs 59 AC for an ancient to need a 20, for example.

Kurald Galain
2007-12-30, 06:57 PM
Now, let's try a "martial adept" type monk, without swordsage levels. Incidentally, magic items qualifying for prerequisites is sad, yet funny.

I'm quite sure point buy doesn't allow you to go below 8 (i.e. you can't drop a score to 6 for an additional 2 points).



Numbers McGee is nothing special. No polymorph cheese, nothing particularly abusive, just a psionic fist with a bunch of buffs and gear. Naked and without buffs, he's pretty much a weakling (a monk).
While I feel this is the best build so far (despite being a spellcaster), I think it's problematic that it assumes the presence of four buffs that last about 12 minutes each. Unless you know exactly where and at which moment you will be encountering the dragon (which seems unlikely), you need to cast those at the beginning of combat, with the dragon charging at you.

deadseashoals
2007-12-30, 07:34 PM
I'm quite sure point buy doesn't allow you to go below 8 (i.e. you can't drop a score to 6 for an additional 2 points).



While I feel this is the best build so far (despite being a spellcaster), I think it's problematic that it assumes the presence of four buffs that last about 12 minutes each. Unless you know exactly where and at which moment you will be encountering the dragon (which seems unlikely), you need to cast those at the beginning of combat, with the dragon charging at you.

That would be the problem. He has a little bit of slack, since defensive precognition can be cast as a swift action (for 2 fewer AC/saves), thicken skin lasts 160 minutes, and he has far more AC than he needs. He also doesn't need offensive precognition immediately, since he's much more of a defensive build, so assuming the dragon doesn't get surprise and then win initiative, he can probably swing it.

deadseashoals
2007-12-30, 07:46 PM
Here's a lower level version of my previous entry. This one has pretty much no slack, he has to know where the dragon is ahead of time. Assuming this is the stereotypical "enter the dragon's lair" scenario, he can prevail. The dragon still needs a natural 20 to hit him, he still needs a natural 1 to fail against the dragon's abilities, and he can hit the dragon fairly consistently with 3 of his attacks. He's got touchsight for trickiness and freedom of movement for grapples.

There's also just something awesome about a Fine-sized ratman with 2 strength beating the crap out of an ancient white dragon.

Little Numbers
LG Jermlaine Monk 6 / Psionic Fist 7
Str 2 Dex 33 Con 12 Wis 26 Int 6 Cha 2 (32 pt)

Armor Class:
10 + 11 (Dex) + 8 (Wis) + 9 (armor) + 2 (natural) + 2 (monk) + 4 (insight) + 7 (shield) + 1 (haste) + 8 (size) = 61

Saves:
+7 + 1 (Con) + 4 (insight) + 3 (resistance) = +15 Fort
+10 + 11 (Dex) + 4 (insight) + 3 (resistance) + 1 (haste) = +29 Ref
+10 + 8 (Wis) + 4 (insight) + 3 (resistance) = +25 Will

Attack:
+9 + 3 (enhancement) + 11 (Dex) + 8 (size) + 1 (haste) - 1 (flurry) = +31/+31/+31/+26
1 + 3 (enhancement) + 2d6 (bane) - 4 (Str) + 1d6*1.5 (fire) = 2d6 + 1d6*1.5 = 12.25

Psionics:
99 pp

4th - psionic freedom of movement
3rd - touchsight
2nd - hustle
1st - inertial armor, defensive precognition, force screen, compression

Daily Routine (11):
inertial armor (11)

Precombat Routine (38):
psionic freedom of movement (7)
touchsight (5)
force screen (13)
defensive precognition (13)
compression (9)
activate boots of flying

Items:
periapt of wisdom +2
gloves of dexterity +4
ring of counterspells (greater dispel magic)
ring of counterspells (dispel magic)
red dragonhide bracers +2
+1 flaming dragonbane kama
cloak of resistance +4
vest of speed
boots of flying

Feats:
Wild Talent
Overchannel
Talented
Weapon Finesse
Practiced Manifester
1 open feat

Shraik
2007-12-31, 02:20 PM
okay Basically make a Monk and give him maxed wisdom. Give him the POrestige class from Faerun that allows a Monk to flurry of blows with any weapon. Make him LG and give him the feat from BoXD that allows him to use wisdom instead of strength for attacks. Make him a Goliath and Give him Monkey Grip and a keen, huge weapon. Do this then give him Better Lucky Then good. So whenever he roles at nat 1, he can make it a nat 20. So He crits in a very high range, with flurry blows, with a huge non-monk weapon, using wis instead of strength. The battle should be over rather quick

tyckspoon
2007-12-31, 02:34 PM
Oh, hey, it's another Monkey Grip Morbo! Which is to say, It Does Not Work That Way. Monkey Grip doesn't stack with Powerful Build; you use a Large creature-sized greatsword And you're presumably ditching Strength in favor of Wisdom, so even with crits your damage output is lacking, especially since all Flurry strikes are one-handed for purposes of strength bonus. And you need some protection to stop the dragon from eating you when he returns the favor with his own six-attack Full Attack sequence.. and I'm betting the dragon's got more HP, does more damage, and probably has a better attack bonus.

Adumbration
2007-12-31, 02:59 PM
Hey, deadsealshoals, you could also give him Vorpal Butterfly Sword (perfectly monkish) and watch a Fine-sized ratman decapitating an ancient dragon. Would be over much faster, too. (Yes, I can see it in my mind)

My own newbieish build (still using vorpal, though - it's the best idea I have):

Raptoran Monk 20
This gives me a flying monk with the ability to Dimension Door and Etherealness, if necessary. With WBL, I should get the usual AC and save throw-improving items, plus Ring of Free Movement, maybe a ring of spellstoring (greater invisibility, maybe Surge of Fortune if everything goes wrong), Vorpal Butterfly Sword, Monk Belt, Amulet of Mighty Fists, Periapt of Wisdom, Boots of Teleportation, etc etc. Not sure how much Monk's WBL is, but I'm pretty sure it's enough.

Taking that at level 20 a monk has 5 attacks per round with Flurry of Blows, you have 25% of chance to decapitate the dragon each round. Sooner or later you'll get lucky. One time is enough.

I'm not sure though - can you wield 2 butterfly swords to get 10 attacks per round? If so, I would go straight for something four-armed, wield 4 Vorpal Butterfly Swords, making it very unlikely to a natural 20. Even if this fails, there's always the Surge of Fortune. (Yay for automatical 20!)

Draz74
2007-12-31, 03:50 PM
*applauds deadseashoals* I like Numbers. I think he's a perfectly valid answer to the contest's demands -- and hard to beat for anyone else. ECL 13 and so non-cheesy, what's not to like?

Yes, he's a manifester, but he is a very Monk-ish manifester. (This thread is about the Monk, not about non-casters vs. dragons in general, right?) Yes, tons of his power comes from his items, but that's true of any high-level character, Wizards and Clerics included. (Maybe not Druids. :smallyuk:)

Edit: I haven't gone over the idea in detail, but I wonder if he could be better using Claws of the Beast and Metaphysical Claw. With Unarmed Strike as an off-hand attack. Probably not -- would require the TWF feat tree, and doesn't stack with Flurry.

Edit again: I think the "open feat" on the ECL 13 version needs to be Expanded Knowledge. Touchsight isn't on the Psychic Warrior power list.

Kaelik
2007-12-31, 04:09 PM
New build.

Monk X,

WBL spent on:
+1 Vorpal Dagger
2 Rings of Spell Storing
Hire a Cleric to cast a Surge of Fortune into both of them.
Activate both of them on sight of the Dragon.
Get of a single attack, Expend First Surge. Expend Second on Crit Confirm.
Kill Dragon.

Probably the lowest level is determined by WBL, since all you need is to take one hit from a Charge.

Or maybe add a Belt of Battle to give you the actions to activate faster then move and attack.

lord_khaine
2007-12-31, 05:10 PM
Okay, so you're claiming that an epic monk with eight spellcaster levels can grapple an ancient dragon. Even so, there's a number of things wrong with your plan.

First, you haven't explained how you would locate the hidden, invisible, burrowed dragon.
Second, you require two rounds to buff yourself; the dragon can of course act during those rounds.
Third, your buffs last one round per manifester level, i.e. less than a minute, which means the dragon can easily outlast them if he really wants.
Fourth, if you succeed in pinning the dragon, he may escape the pin by making an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. The dragon still gets six attacks per round. That gives him a good chance to succeed, letting him damage you with the remaining attacks.
Fifth, from its wording, it is unclear whether the ring of counterspelling works on area effect spells, so you need the DM to rule in your favor there. Assuming it doesn't work, I'm not sure how your manifester level is 12 rather than 8, but even if it is, that gives the dragon a better than even chance to dispel at least one of your buffs.

And yes, you are making your character less a monk and more a caster. You even admit so yourself, because you say in your post that "the psion gets the first full attack".

first of all finding the dragon has newer been part of the challenge, and since noone else has bothered to deal with it i dont see any reason why i should do so, still i find it kinda funny my suggestion is the only one you feel the need to point this out on (not to mention there are lots of options for it).

as for buffs, if you would look the powers up before commenting on them, you would have seen that one of them can be manifestet as a immediate action, and the other can last 120 min when nececary.

this both answers your concerns about manifesting time and the duration of the buffs.

and i have actualy noted the use of practiced manifester on my entry, since its required for the build, also even if one of the buffs get dispelled, then it means a wasted action for the dragon, and the buff can be put up again with a swift action or better.

as for what i have admitte and not, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and sometimes the word psion is used instead of the word monk according to what levels where addet last.

Jakezor
2008-01-01, 12:05 AM
Well, you could go a large (or huge) sized Gist Monk/Cleric 10, then go Kensei/Whatever (monk? i forget how gist works) 10
Make your fists permanently +5 magical weapons with another +5 of various magical abilities for free.
Buff yourself up with your divine spells, and swing your little jukes around.

But I suppose that *technically* uses a non monk base class, but heck, the focus is on the monk punching things instead of the cleric right?

At least I didn't suggest a gist monk/wizz...

I'm on vacation, stranded from my mini-library of d&d books, so I can't come up with something less general and, well, stupid that this right now, I'll get back to you on the 5th.

Kaelik
2008-01-01, 12:28 AM
Gish. Not Gist.

huyneo
2008-01-01, 12:42 AM
New build.

Monk X,

WBL spent on:
+1 Vorpal Dagger
2 Rings of Spell Storing
Hire a Cleric to cast a Surge of Fortune into both of them.
Activate both of them on sight of the Dragon.
Get of a single attack, Expend First Surge. Expend Second on Crit Confirm.
Kill Dragon.

Probably the lowest level is determined by WBL, since all you need is to take one hit from a Charge.

Or maybe add a Belt of Battle to give you the actions to activate faster then move and attack.

Vorpal only works on an NATURAL 20

Armads
2008-01-01, 12:58 AM
If you expend surge of fortune, the next attack roll/skill check/save/ability check/SR check is treated as a nat 20. Also, expending it is an immediate action, so you should get true strike into ring 1 and surge into ring 2.

Talya
2008-01-01, 01:00 AM
The way I see it, you need four things here, and you only need a single class (Monk) to do it.

1. Freedom of Movement.
2. An ability to full attack while moving. (What's that feat that lets you full attack at the end of a charge?)
3. The ability to fly.
4. Touch of Golden Ice. (BoED).

The save on touch of golden ice is low, but a natural 1 still fails. Monks get a lot of attacks, and despite the medium BAB are going to land a lot of hits...especially if they make those hits just touch attacks. Eventually the dragon fails.

As tempting as VoP is here, it makes us rely on another racial choice for flight, and I don't want to do that, keeping the ECL to +0 is my intent. This is unfortunate, as VoP grants everything else we need and more (the exalted feats, freedom of movement, huge bonuses to attack.) I'm leaving the option open there if I can come up with a way for him to fly cheaply.

An ancient white dragon has a touch AC of 8. If that monk gets in close, he's landing easily 5-6 attacks in a round, every time (Can we boost the number of attacks?) Each of them does no damage, but force a fortitude save on the part of the dragon. The DC of golden ice is only 14, and while you can boost it, you can't boost it far enough for it to matter against the dragon's +23 fort save. Still, a roll of 1 fails. Within a couple rounds, he's going to start taking dex damage. With the poor dexterity of a dragon, a single touch of golden ice has a chance of incapacitating it (1d6+2d6 dex damage).

We can do this easily on a human monk with gear. With VoP, we need a method of flight, although if we get that, VoP makes this idea even easier and simpler.

Kaelik
2008-01-01, 01:24 AM
If you expend surge of fortune, the next attack roll/skill check/save/ability check/SR check is treated as a nat 20. Also, expending it is an immediate action, so you should get true strike into ring 1 and surge into ring 2.

True Strike doesn't allow you to choose which attack to apply it to. And I need to hit on the Crit Confirm, and Natural 20 the first one, I see no way for True Strike to work out.

But it doesn't need to because you can expend your swift action to Natural 20 the first attack, then Expend the second one using your immediate action. Yeah you won't have a swift action next turn, but you will have a dead Dragon.

Cuddly
2008-01-01, 01:27 AM
The way I see it, you need four things here, and you only need a single class (Monk) to do it.

1. Freedom of Movement.
2. An ability to full attack while moving. (What's that feat that lets you full attack at the end of a charge?)
3. The ability to fly.
4. Touch of Golden Ice. (BoED).

The save on touch of golden ice is low, but a natural 1 still fails. Monks get a lot of attacks, and despite the medium BAB are going to land a lot of hits...especially if they make those hits just touch attacks. Eventually the dragon fails.

As tempting as VoP is here, it makes us rely on another racial choice for flight, and I don't want to do that, keeping the ECL to +0 is my intent. This is unfortunate, as VoP grants everything else we need and more (the exalted feats, freedom of movement, huge bonuses to attack.) I'm leaving the option open there if I can come up with a way for him to fly cheaply.

An ancient white dragon has a touch AC of 8. If that monk gets in close, he's landing easily 5-6 attacks in a round, every time (Can we boost the number of attacks?) Each of them does no damage, but force a fortitude save on the part of the dragon. The DC of golden ice is only 14, and while you can boost it, you can't boost it far enough for it to matter against the dragon's +23 fort save. Still, a roll of 1 fails. Within a couple rounds, he's going to start taking dex damage. With the poor dexterity of a dragon, a single touch of golden ice has a chance of incapacitating it (1d6+2d6 dex damage).

We can do this easily on a human monk with gear. With VoP, we need a method of flight, although if we get that, VoP makes this idea even easier and simpler.

The problem there is trading blows with a dragon.

Armads
2008-01-01, 01:57 AM
True Strike doesn't allow you to choose which attack to apply it to. And I need to hit on the Crit Confirm, and Natural 20 the first one, I see no way for True Strike to work out.

Oops, you're right on that one. Wraithstrike, maybe?



But it doesn't need to because you can expend your swift action to Natural 20 the first attack, then Expend the second one using your immediate action. Yeah you won't have a swift action next turn, but you will have a dead Dragon.

Swift actions don't work that way.



Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action, and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn). You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.

EDIT:
@ Talya, the dragon could take Steadfast Determination, and you need at least 20 attacks to get a nat 1 reliably.

Kaelik
2008-01-01, 02:07 AM
Oops, you're right on that one. Wraithstrike, maybe?

Indeed. Wraithstrike would probably manage it. It only has two problems:
1) You need to have a Wizard and a Cleric cast into your rings (Not a big deal.)

2) It means you have to activate it that round, IE you'd still be using a swift action that round, and then not be able to use the immediate.

You could get an extended Wraithstrike. But that's still awkward. (You need exactly one round warning on the Dragon, and if you buff a round early it doesn't work.)

Level20Commoner
2008-01-01, 02:21 AM
I made this build the other day, Human Monk 2/ Fighter 2/ Shou Disciple 2 (unapproachable east)/ Thayan Gladiator (champions of ruin) 10/ Weapon Master 4 (oriental adventures). I hope you will give a pass to the 2 levels of fighter as they are necessary for acquiring prerequisite feats. If you think about it, 14 of the levels are optimizing the monk's unarmed strike, while the other levels of Weapon Master are included to further increase the critical hit range of his attacks. To be honest I was a little unsure how to take the various prestige class levels to ensure the biggest damage die possible but maybe someone can help me with this. I do think however that rather than sticking with flurry of blows, this hypothetical truly mad monk of yours would want to go with the class feature alternative decisive strike found in PHB II, which gives you 2 attacks that do double damage if they hit. For the capstone of thayan gladiatior I would go with the speed, flaming burst, or wounding qualities. Like other posters have said, the main problems with overcoming a dragon are as follows: it is stronger, faster, and tougher than you, and it can bend reality to its will. I also think you should take heart and not be discouraged, fighting trolls (especially the forum dwelling variety) is a time honored adventuring tradition. I would appreciate any opinions on whether my non-spellcasting/manifesting kentaro-esque monk is viable or not!

Talya
2008-01-01, 09:32 AM
@ Talya, the dragon could take Steadfast Determination, and you need at least 20 attacks to get a nat 1 reliably.

Steadfast determination would suck, yes. It's pure cheese, especially on a +23 fort save dragon, but yeah. I generally dislike the PHB2, but still, even if you allow it, most people don't end up taking it. (Especially when it's primary ability would be to boost an already very high will save.)

As for natural ones, in 6 hits (1 round), the dragon has a 26.5% chance of rolling a natural 1. In 12 hits (2 rounds), He has a 46% chance of rolling a natural 1 (and could easily have rolled 2 of them by now.) By 18 hits (3 rounds), he has a 60% chance of rolling a natural 1...etc. It's a matter of how long the monk can last making the attempts. While dragons do a lot of damage, monks can have some of the best armor class and defenses in the game, so I'm not all that worried about that. And that's assuming the dragon just full attacks (they tend to at least try spells and breath weapons and stuff, all of which would be a waste against a monk.)

Talya
2008-01-01, 09:56 AM
Oh, a shadow-sun ninja (monk PrC from Tome of Battle) would have great success vs. the dragon...but...they'd be damned when the battle was over.

F.L.
2008-01-01, 10:13 AM
Steadfast determination would suck, yes. It's pure cheese, especially on a +23 fort save dragon, but yeah. I generally dislike the PHB2, but still, even if you allow it, most people don't end up taking it. (Especially when it's primary ability would be to boost an already very high will save.)

As for natural ones, in 6 hits (1 round), the dragon has a 26.5% chance of rolling a natural 1. In 12 hits (2 rounds), He has a 46% chance of rolling a natural 1 (and could easily have rolled 2 of them by now.) By 18 hits (3 rounds), he has a 60% chance of rolling a natural 1...etc. It's a matter of how long the monk can last making the attempts. While dragons do a lot of damage, monks can have some of the best armor class and defenses in the game, so I'm not all that worried about that. And that's assuming the dragon just full attacks (they tend to at least try spells and breath weapons and stuff, all of which would be a waste against a monk.)

To successfully kill a gold dragon with golden ice, you must be able to hit it at least twice with golden ice. It's going to make its second save against the ravage 10 entire rounds later, so golden ice is only going to deal 1d6 dex damage, ever, on the roll of a 1 on its save. There are only decent odds of this well into 6 rounds of combat later, which even the dumb white dragon can probably kill you in.

Edit: Forgot that you add the enemy's CHA bonus to the damage, which for a Wyrm White dragon is +3, still requiring 2 hits. (Damage is 4-9 dex).

Talya
2008-01-01, 10:38 AM
To successfully kill a gold dragon with golden ice, you must be able to hit it at least twice with golden ice.
You can't kill a (good) gold dragon with golden ice. however, I assume you meant white dragon, since that's what's being discussed. Yes, i'm aware of that. There are good odds of affecting it twice, even three times, before it kills you.


It's going to make its second save against the ravage 10 entire rounds later, so golden ice is only going to deal 1d6 dex damage, ever, on the roll of a 1 on its save. There are only decent odds of this well into 6 rounds of combat later, which even the dumb white dragon can probably kill you in.


I think I could get 24-30 attacks off before this happened. The odds are somewhat random.


Anyway, I've been revising this build.


Race: Aasimar. Use either the Lesser Aasimar Faerun variant, or the Savage Progressions level 0 variant (substituting wisdom for charisma as the starting bonus, since the progressions rules are just guidelines on how to break up level adjustments.)

Flaws: Need at least two starting feats. Shaky or Inattentive come to mind. Perhaps both.

Starting feats: Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty
Later Feats: Celestial Bloodline, Outsider Wings, and whatever the feat is that allows a full attack on a charge. I would also advise some flight boosting feats (improved flight, diving charge).
Exalted Feats: You get 10 bonus exalted feats, you can pretty much load up on everything you want here. Golden Ice is the obvious one.

VOP is also going to give you freedom of movement, truesight, +8/+6/+4/+2 to abilities of your choice, huge armor bonuses, more bonuses to your saves, +5 enhancement bonus to your fists, and a lot more.

This thing could last toe-to-toe with the dragon for a while, and if he lands golden ice even 3 times, the dragon is very likely to be down.

F.L.
2008-01-01, 12:48 PM
Whoops.

Also, due to the CHA bonus, which I neglected earlier, you're probably going to drop the dragon in 2 golden ice hits.

Though there are probably faster and safer builds to accomplish this.

Talya
2008-01-01, 01:08 PM
Whoops.

Also, due to the CHA bonus, which I neglected earlier, you're probably going to drop the dragon in 2 golden ice hits.

Though there are probably faster and safer builds to accomplish this.

Probably, but I wanted to do it with pure monk, no PrCs or level adjusted races.

Lokey
2008-01-01, 07:09 PM
If we were talking fighter or a cleric type that doesn't use spells for attacks much v. Ancient White I don't think we'd want to get up in his face.

Are there options for arrows/bolts that aren't available for sling (slaying, etc)? While most monk abilities are melee (stunning fist, palm, flurry), I don't think you can toe to toe dragons very often and have a very good life expectancy ;)

SurlySeraph
2008-01-01, 11:28 PM
Hmm. I don't have an entire build thought out, but I'm thinking Duergar Monk 19 for a start. I'd take Magic in the Blood (lets you use your spell-like abilities 3/day instead of 1/day) and Quicken Spell-like ability (Invisibility). After making a full attack, he can go invisible as a free action to keep the dragon from attacking him. Of course, he can only do that 3 times initially. I'd also take the Two-Weapon Fighting tree and dual-wield kamas; you can combine Improved Flurry and Greater TWF for 8 attacks per round. Having the kamas both be speed weapons would get that up to 10 attacks per round. Next step, of course, is to make the kamas vorpal. Two +1 Vorpal Speed Kamas would cost 324,000 gp.

Round 1: Full attack, getting 10 attacks. After the full attack, uses his quickened Invisibility spell-like ability to disappear so the dragon can't attack him.
Round 2: Same thing.
Round 3: Same thing.
Round 4: Full attack again, but now he's out of Invisibility uses. However, by this point he's made 40 attacks. It is statistically probably that at least 1 of them was a natural 20, and since he's using vorpal weapons that means the dragon is dead. If not, he's in trouble now.

Alternate way: get kama versions of the Lifedrinker greataxe, which deals 2 negative levels to its target and 1 negative level to its wielder whenever it deals damage. Wear an amulet of Death Ward.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-01-01, 11:41 PM
Round 1: Full attack, getting 10 attacks. After the full attack, uses his quickened Invisibility spell-like ability to disappear so the dragon can't attack him.
Round 2: Same thing.
Round 3: Same thing.
Round 4: Full attack again, but now he's out of Invisibility uses. However, by this point he's made 40 attacks. It is statistically probably that at least 1 of them was a natural 20, and since he's using vorpal weapons that means the dragon is dead. If not, he's in trouble now.



Don't forget Dragons have blindsight with a range of 30 feet times age level so expect to be attacked if the dragon hasn't been put down.

Talic
2008-01-02, 01:01 AM
...Wow.

Lotta activity in my absence. So far, Numbers McGee by DeadSeaShoals is far and away in the lead, at able to kill an Ancient White dragon fairly reliably at ECL 13, with the dragon needing a nat 20 to hit, and numbers doing an average of 39.2 damage per round on a full attack. The likely spells for an ancient white would be pretty useless against him (detection, mobility hindrance), as it doesn't matter if the dragon can see him, he can't hit, and the other stuff will fail on a save. The PrC is a monk-designed PrC, everything looks good.

Several other good honorable mentions, though a couple things to note.

Unless you're pinning the dragon, which limits your attacking ability, a dragon can still make a full attack in a grapple, with each attack taking a -4 to hit.

Unless you have the feat from the Aberrations book that allows you to evade special senses, blindsense will still pick up your square, allowing for 50/50 attacks... Probably a bit more dangerous than I'd like without an exceptional AC.

Vorpal needs confirmation... If the Nat 20 comes at the low end of the attacks, better hope you have a Surge of Fortune cast on ya, else, there's a very low chance of confirming.

Question to Shoals, what was the original stat array used for the monk?

Draz74
2008-01-02, 02:05 AM
2. An ability to full attack while moving. (What's that feat that lets you full attack at the end of a charge?)

Dire Charge. It's Epic.

If it weren't, then dipping one level in Barbarian (Lion Totem) wouldn't have become such a popular (cheesy :smallyuk:) strategy ever since Complete Champion came out.

I don't think you were thinking of an Epic level Monk. And Barbarian dipping isn't allowed in this contest, what a shame. So I think your best move is actually a Martial Study feat, so you can pick up some Maneuver from ToB that will let you move and make a full attack in the same turn. (Sudden Leap, perhaps, and cheese up your Jump check.)

Fawsto
2008-01-02, 02:12 AM
Ok... How about some of those weapons the Monk can wield and Flurry with? Pehaps a Dragonbane Fire Burst +2 Staff?

Another thing... This dragon, I doubt any non caster could take such a creature alone...

Dude... Consider a Younger Dragon or things won't go well for the Monk... A 20th level fighter couldn't take it, neither a 20th lvl ranger, neither a 20th lvl Barbarian neither a 20th lvl Paladin. No non-ToB meleer can take a bigger monster all alone without some pesky feat combo or class combo, or even class/feat combo. Otherwise, If you consider that a Monk can become a decent Archer or Thrower, you should use it... Going near that thing isn't smart at all...

Is the same thing as trying to let a lone Swordsage against the "Big T" (a.k.a the Tarrasque) without a group helping him.

Also, Leadership for a 19 lvl Cleric so he can Buff the hell out of you before the fight can help a little.

Talic
2008-01-02, 02:24 AM
Ok... How about some of those weapons the Monk can wield and Flurry with? Pehaps a Dragonbane Fire Burst +2 Staff?

Another thing... This dragon, I doubt any non caster could take such a creature alone...

Dude... Consider a Younger Dragon or things won't go well for the Monk... A 20th level fighter couldn't take it, neither a 20th lvl ranger, neither a 20th lvl Barbarian neither a 20th lvl Paladin. No non-ToB meleer can take a bigger monster all alone without some pesky feat combo or class combo, or even class/feat combo. Otherwise, If you consider that a Monk can become a decent Archer or Thrower, you should use it... Going near that thing isn't smart at all...

Is the same thing as trying to let a lone Swordsage against the "Big T" (a.k.a the Tarrasque) without a group helping him.

Also, Leadership for a 19 lvl Cleric so he can Buff the hell out of you before the fight can help a little.


It's actually been done at ECL 13 with Monk/Psi Fist. A dragon isn't nearly as kill-resistant to melee-types as the big T. The build that wins so far is actually 1 page previous to this one.

Level20Commoner
2008-01-02, 06:59 AM
It's actually been done at ECL 13 with Monk/Psi Fist. A dragon isn't nearly as kill-resistant to melee-types as the big T. The build that wins so far is actually 1 page previous to this one.

That's 'Mr. T' to you. :smallsmile:

Talic
2008-01-02, 07:12 AM
That's 'Mr. T' to you. :smallsmile:

I prefer to think of him as RedMister T.

Frosty
2008-01-02, 11:34 AM
The way I see it, you need four things here, and you only need a single class (Monk) to do it.
...
3. The ability to fly.
...


As tempting as VoP is here, it makes us rely on another racial choice for flight, and I don't want to do that, keeping the ECL to +0 is my intent.

Tayla. There is a LA +0 race with Flight. They're called Raptorans and they're about on par with Dwarves as far as power-level for a LA+0 race. It's from Races of the Wild.

Talya
2008-01-02, 11:46 AM
Tayla. There is a LA +0 race with Flight. They're called Raptorans and they're about on par with Dwarves as far as power-level for a LA+0 race. It's from Races of the Wild.

I think Raptorans are LA +1.

Arbitrarity
2008-01-02, 11:54 AM
No, they aren't.

Also, draconomicon or Savage specheese has the Amulet of Natural Weapons, which would let you give the various special enhancements to fists for about regular price.

Frosty
2008-01-02, 03:04 PM
Raptorans would be pretty worthless at LA+1

F.L.
2008-01-02, 03:07 PM
No, they aren't.

Also, draconomicon or Savage specheese has the Amulet of Natural Weapons, which would let you give the various special enhancements to fists for about regular price.

If you're going to use Savage Specheese, you may as well grab an anthropomorphic bat to use as the base race at the same time. +6 wis, +4 dex, -2 str, and a natural fly speed, enabling the use of VOP if you feel like it, and by extension, intuitive strike.

Arbitrarity
2008-01-02, 03:20 PM
Necklace of Natural Attacks. Yes, it is from Savage. But I wouldn't put it on the same level as the bat, regardless. Though giving it to the dragon is cruel and unusual:smalleek:

Sir Giacomo
2008-01-02, 08:13 PM
Ok, everyone's been ragging on the monk, so I thought I'd give everyone the opportunity to help a monk shine. Using any non-diplocheese, non-infinite method, build a character (all classes must be monk or monk-themed PrC) that can singlehandedly, and reliably, defeat in single combat, an....

Ancient White Dragon.

Use any level you like up to 20.

Please utilize the balance skill in your builds, as most white dragons love icy lairs, given their icewalking ability.

RULES:
* Monk is the ONLY base class allowed.
* All PrC's must be explicitly monk-themed. Any PrC that "could be" monk-themed with proper choices is not enough.
* It must be Single combat. The dragon isn't taking leadership, neither are you.
* No Diplo-cheese.
* Nothing infinite.
* No Use Magic Device wins.
* All magic items must be from sources published by WotC.
* Levels are 1-20, and lowest level reliable build wins.
* Character does get WBL, no more than 25% WBL on any single item.
* Alternate races are allowed, but let's try to make the class shine, not the race. Lowest total ECL wins.

Hi, and happy new year to all.

Let me make a good start by rising to this challenge.

The core build below should suffice, so no non-core cheese needed (fair also since the monster is also core material!). It may be doable for lower levels as well, but I liked the idea that at 20th level the monk gains damage reduction 10/magic and thus resistance to the cold weather likely in the area of the white dragon.

Some points of note:
- maxed knowledge arcane should give a good start to gain knowledge about the enemy- great hide (+43) and spot (+32) skills are helpful for spying out the dragon's lair once found. Due to flying ability, no balance skill is needed.
- base tactics is buff first and then to teleport near dragon- but outside his reach, win initiative (highly likely) and open up with a ranged attack volley. The dragon after this attack has his one action left to do something that helps, or he could well perish in the second attack by the monk. As outlined already above, breath weapons and magic all are to no avail vs a monk (who may trick the dragon via his disguise self effect to appear like a full-armoured archer), and also the fog cloud concealments will not help vs the seeking bolts.
- This monk can also easily go melee, avoiding grapples with his high touch AC if needed, but more importantly with his ring of blinking. If the dragon ever gets into full attack range of the monk (say, because the monk charged and the dragon simply responded with a full attack), the dragon will likely not survive the full attack routine, served together with stunning fist, massive damage at one point or another and quivering palm.
- The only way out for this white dragon with his few spells is to retreat via a dimension door spell or faster movement (needs total cover in his caves vs more bolt attacks). Hard maybe for such a dragon to leave behind his treasure...The dragon is not automatically beaten by this monk build, but it is clearly at a big disadvantage. Even if the white dragon would be able to surprise the monk, the monk could escape more easily than the other way round.
- what the build below definitely once again shows is that the core rules are remarkably balanced. Bear in mind that the monk was never meant to fight big critters in melee or even archery- that is the role of full BAB classes. But even though the monk below on top of this is not able for this challenge to use UMD and leadership to get easier access to magic, it still nicely showcases how the non-caster classes can use magic item synergies with their class abilities to shine.

- Giacomo



*************

Dragonhunter Monk

20th level human monk, 28 pt buy

STR 12, DEX 28 (+6 enhance, 5 stat gains, +3 inherent), CON 20 (enhance +6), WIS 16 (+1 inherent, +1 age), INT 15 (+1 age), CHR 9 (+1 age)
INITIATIVE +17 (DEX, feat, +1 luck, +2 morale)
AC 28 (DEX, monk +8, +1 insight), 38 with mage armour, protection from evil and shield up, 42 with full defensive +4 sai up (unnamed bonus), 50 with full expertise and fighting defensively
HITPOINTS 193 (max lvl 1, +100 CON), +1d8+6 temporary from Hero’s feast
SAVES Fort +20, Refl +25, Will +18/+20 vs enhance (incl. +1 luck, +2 morale) optional +2 vs evil spells from holy sword effect
SPELL RESISTANCE 30
MOVE 120ft flying (good maneuverability)
FEATS: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Stun, Deflect Arrows, Improved Disarm (monk bonus feat), Improved Initiative (human bonus feat), Improved Grapple, Weapon Finesse, Blind-Fighting, Improved Natural Attack, Flyby Attack, Rapid Reload, Expertise
ABILITIES: immunity to poison, immunity to disease, immunity to ageing, improved evasion, stunning fist DC 23 (21/day), quivering palm DC 23, etheralness up to 20 rounds per day, dimension door 1/day as supernatural ability, tongues as extraordinary ability
SKILLS (161 total): Maxed Spot (+34!), Listen, Knowledge Arcane, Hide +45 (!! with robe of blending), Move Silently.
5 ranks in Jumping and in tumbling. Rest for sense motive and diplomacy as needed for synergy, cross-class spellcraft etc.
EQUIPMENT
162,335 Light Crossbow +5, seeking, holy, bane-dragons
82,500 DEX +3 manual
73,500 Helm of Teleportation
54,000 Wings of Flying
50,000 Ring of Spell Storing with Divine Power, Enlarge
50,000 Ring of Spell Storing with Holy Sword, Shield
50,301 Sai +4, defending
36,000 CON +6 amulet
36,000 DEX+6 gloves
30,000 Robe of Blending
27,500 Ring of Blinking
20,000 Stone of Good Luck
17,500 WIS +1 manual
13,500 Monk’s Belt
12,000 Boots of Speed
11,000 Rod of Cancellation
11,000 Rod of Metamagic-Extend (normal; used for divine power and holy sword; possibly for either hero's feast or shield)
5,400 Eversmoking Bottle
5,000 Ioun Stone of insight AC +1
2,500 Goggles of Spot +5
1050 Potion of Good Hope
50 gp Potion of Mage Armour

Spells cast by npcs prior to combat:
Flame Arrow x2 (720), Hero’s Feast (720 gp)
The items should be below the wbl for 20th level altogether, and some are not really necessary.

Attacks with buffs on...
RANGED +37 (+20 BAB/divine power, +9 DEX, +5 enhance, +2 bane, +2 morale from potion of good hope, +1 haste from boots, -2 due to enlarge-DEX and size penalty). Full attack: +37/+37/+32/+27/+22
Damage 2d6+5enhance+2bane+2morale+2d6holy+2d6bane+1d6fire =7d6+9 or 33 dmg on average per hit.
MELEE +37 (+20 BAB/divine power, +9 DEX, +5 enhance from holy sword, +2 morale from potion of good hope, +2 from blinking, +1 haste from boots, -2 due to enlarge-DEX and size penalty).
Flurry +37/+37/+37/+37/+37/+32/+27
Damage 6d8 (enlarged improved nat. attack monk base damage) +6 (STR from enlarge and divine power increase) +5 enhance, +2d6holy, +2 morale = 47 on average per hit
Grapple: +34

EDIT: Time for the caster power believers to show the same with a full caster core build...:smallcool:
EDIT2: ability focus replaced with rapid reload; courtesy Tyckspoon

tyckspoon
2008-01-02, 11:47 PM
You forgot Rapid Reload. You know, for Full Attacking with a crossbow. I'm.. not going to touch the rest of it, to avoid cloning any of the other four threads where everybody else argues about your ideas about balance.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-01-03, 12:08 AM
it still nicely showcases how the non-caster classes can use magic item synergies with their class abilities to shine.

- Giacomo

Dragonhunter Monk

20th level human monk

The problem here is that WBL jumps very dramatically at level 20 (the level that sees the least playtime, generally; in 1-20 or 11-20 or 15-20 or any such campaigns, you're not level 20 for long before the big showdown) specifically and for the last three or four more generally. Mind doing me a favor and showing what this monk would look like at level, say, 15?

Edit: especially since an Ancient White Dragon is CR 18, and "boss" enemies tend to be CR +2 to 5.

I also think you're underestimating the dragon, which casts up to 4th level spells (like Greater Invisibility--good look targeting it now), Wind Wall (good luck shooting it now), Prot. From/Resist Energy (Fire), Tiny Hut (again with the anti-shooting), Sleet Storm, etc, and has equipment of his own.

Talic
2008-01-03, 01:16 AM
Some highlights: 375 hp, +39 attack, +49 base grapple, saves 23/17/19, and a frightful presence DC of 27. AC 37, casts as 9th level sorcerer. Note also that it has a Burrow speed.



Hi, and happy new year to all.

Let me make a good start by rising to this challenge.

The core build below should suffice, so no non-core cheese needed (fair also since the monster is also core material!). It may be doable for lower levels as well, but I liked the idea that at 20th level the monk gains damage reduction 10/magic and thus resistance to the cold weather likely in the area of the white dragon.

Some points of note:
- maxed knowledge arcane should give a good start to gain knowledge about the enemy- great hide (+43) and spot (+32) skills are helpful for spying out the dragon's lair once found. Due to flying ability, no balance skill is needed.
- base tactics is buff first and then to teleport near dragon- but outside his reach, win initiative (highly likely) and open up with a ranged attack volley. The dragon after this attack has his one action left to do something that helps, or he could well perish in the second attack by the monk. As outlined already above, breath weapons and magic all are to no avail vs a monk (who may trick the dragon via his disguise self effect to appear like a full-armoured archer), and also the fog cloud concealments will not help vs the seeking bolts.
- This monk can also easily go melee, avoiding grapples with his high touch AC if needed, but more importantly with his ring of blinking. If the dragon ever gets into full attack range of the monk (say, because the monk charged and the dragon simply responded with a full attack), the dragon will likely not survive the full attack routine, served together with stunning fist, massive damage at one point or another and quivering palm.
- The only way out for this white dragon with his few spells is to retreat via a dimension door spell or faster movement (needs total cover in his caves vs more bolt attacks). Hard maybe for such a dragon to leave behind his treasure...The dragon is not automatically beaten by this monk build, but it is clearly at a big disadvantage. Even if the white dragon would be able to surprise the monk, the monk could escape more easily than the other way round.
- what the build below definitely once again shows is that the core rules are remarkably balanced. Bear in mind that the monk was never meant to fight big critters in melee or even archery- that is the role of full BAB classes. But even though the monk below on top of this is not able for this challenge to use UMD and leadership to get easier access to magic, it still nicely showcases how the non-caster classes can use magic item synergies with their class abilities to shine.

- Giacomo



*************

Dragonhunter Monk

20th level human monk, 28 pt buy

STR 12, DEX 28 (+6 enhance, 5 stat gains, +3 inherent), CON 20 (enhance +6), WIS 16 (+1 inherent, +1 age), INT 15 (+1 age), CHR 9 (+1 age)
INITIATIVE +17 (DEX, feat, +1 luck, +2 morale)
AC 28 (DEX, monk +8, +1 insight), 38 with mage armour, protection from evil and shield up, 42 with full defensive +4 sai up (unnamed bonus), 50 with full expertise and fighting defensively
HITPOINTS 193 (max lvl 1, +100 CON), +1d8+6 temporary from Hero’s feast
SAVES Fort +20, Refl +25, Will +18/+20 vs enhance (incl. +1 luck, +2 morale) optional +2 vs evil spells from holy sword effect
SPELL RESISTANCE 30
MOVE 120ft flying (good maneuverability)
FEATS: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Stun, Deflect Arrows, Improved Disarm (monk bonus feat), Improved Initiative (human bonus feat), Improved Grapple, Weapon Finesse, Blind-Fighting, Improved Natural Attack, Flyby Attack, Ability focus, Expertise
ABILITIES: immunity to poison, immunity to disease, immunity to ageing, improved evasion, stunning fist DC 25 (21/day), quivering palm DC 23, etheralness up to 20 rounds per day, dimension door 1/day as supernatural ability, tongues as extraordinary ability
SKILLS (161 total): Maxed Spot (+34!), Listen, Knowledge Arcane, Hide +45 (!! with robe of blending), Move Silently.
5 ranks in Jumping and in tumbling. Rest for sense motive and diplomacy as needed for synergy, cross-class spellcraft etc.
EQUIPMENT
162,335 Light Crossbow +5, seeking, holy, bane-dragons
82,500 DEX +3 manual
73,500 Helm of Teleportation
54,000 Wings of Flying
50,000 Ring of Spell Storing with Divine Power, Enlarge
50,000 Ring of Spell Storing with Holy Sword, Shield
50,301 Sai +4, defending
36,000 CON +6 amulet
36,000 DEX+6 gloves
30,000 Robe of Blending
27,500 Ring of Blinking
20,000 Stone of Good Luck
17,500 WIS +1 manual
13,500 Monk’s Belt
12,000 Boots of Speed
11,000 Rod of Cancellation
11,000 Rod of Metamagic-Extend (normal; used for divine power and holy sword; possibly for either hero's feast or shield)
5,400 Eversmoking Bottle
5,000 Ioun Stone of insight AC +1
2,500 Goggles of Spot +5
1050 Potion of Good Hope
50 gp Potion of Mage Armour

Spells cast by npcs prior to combat:
Flame Arrow x2 (720), Hero’s Feast (720 gp)
The items should be below the wbl for 20th level altogether, and some are not really necessary.

Attacks with buffs on...
RANGED +37 (+20 BAB/divine power, +9 DEX, +5 enhance, +2 bane, +2 morale from potion of good hope, +1 haste from boots, -2 due to enlarge-DEX and size penalty). Full attack: +37/+37/+32/+27/+22
Damage 2d6+5enhance+2bane+2morale+2d6holy+2d6bane+1d6fire =7d6+9 or 33 dmg on average per hit.
MELEE +37 (+20 BAB/divine power, +9 DEX, +5 enhance from holy sword, +2 morale from potion of good hope, +2 from blinking, +1 haste from boots, -2 due to enlarge-DEX and size penalty).
Flurry +37/+37/+37/+37/+37/+32/+27
Damage 6d8 (enlarged improved nat. attack monk base damage) +6 (STR from enlarge and divine power increase) +5 enhance, +2d6holy, +2 morale = 47 on average per hit
Grapple: +34

EDIT: Time for the caster power believers to show the same with a full caster core build...:smallcool:

Non-viable, I think. AC is firstly, way too low. At 20th level, you need to be a tough target before temp buffs. You can buff, then teleport, but what if the dragon has his lair defended magically? At the age category we're talking, a Dimension Lock effect isn't out of line. That would pretty much mean character death for this guy, as the dragon could hide burrowed until the spells wore off, then eat you alive in a grapple. (grapple advantage of +15 for dragon, and it wins ties, due to a higher modifier. That means about a 2.3% chance of winning grapple, as your high roll must come in conjunction with a low roll from the dragon).

Further, the majority of your boosts are coming from the cleric buff build, cheesed in with little room for error (short durations). The dragon has one innate ability that nerfs ranged attack (Solid Fog), and likely at least one cast ability (Improved invisibility, Wind Wall, etc).

The dragon WILL be able to effectively melee this character. Especially under a spell effect like improved invisibility, which you'll have a rough time getting through. At best, this build has a 50/50 shot, which isn't enough for level 20. At level 20, you should be able to solo a CR 18 as a standard encounter. If you got a 50/50 at level 15? Then we're talking.

Further, even if this build was 100% reliable and effective, it's still out of the running, as the current reliable monk build for victory is sitting at ECL 13.

Armads
2008-01-03, 03:25 AM
Stuff about core is balanced blah blah

Dragonhunter Monk



The Dragonhunter Monk uses no Monklike abilities. It could well be an expert with the same amount of wealth buying the same magical buffs. You're not even using a monk weapon. You're using a CROSSBOW.

Also, what if the dragon has a scroll of disjunction? Can you do anything without your buffs?

Talic
2008-01-03, 03:44 AM
The Dragonhunter Monk uses no Monklike abilities. It could well be an expert with the same amount of wealth buying the same magical buffs. You're not even using a monk weapon. You're using a CROSSBOW.

Also, what if the dragon has a scroll of disjunction? Can you do anything without your buffs?

You forget a few points of AC and the occasional chance of flurry.

Though, since one only gets 1 free action a round, there will be no more than 2 crossbow shots a round, ever.

Sir Giacomo
2008-01-03, 08:15 AM
Hi again,

first of all, thanks @tyckspoon for pointing out the lack of rapid reload feat. Simply forgot it - arg! Will correct it! (replaces the ability focus).


The problem here is that WBL jumps very dramatically at level 20 (the level that sees the least playtime, generally; in 1-20 or 11-20 or 15-20 or any such campaigns, you're not level 20 for long before the big showdown) specifically and for the last three or four more generally. Mind doing me a favor and showing what this monk would look like at level, say, 15?

Edit: especially since an Ancient White Dragon is CR 18, and "boss" enemies tend to be CR +2 to 5.

Hmm...I can try to do that. But likely the balancing of the rules does not back up a character soloing a creature of a CR three levels ABOVE your own. It can be done with same level characters, likely (due to the higher specialisation possible and more items).



I also think you're underestimating the dragon, which casts up to 4th level spells (like Greater Invisibility--good look targeting it now), Wind Wall (good luck shooting it now), Prot. From/Resist Energy (Fire), Tiny Hut (again with the anti-shooting), Sleet Storm, etc, and has equipment of his own.

That's why I mentioned above that it is not a safe win of the monk.
But the dragon will have to come up with more than what you mentioned. First of all, he will have to cast the stuff first, costing him a standard action as no rod or feat of quicken could help his spontaneous spells in that respect (this might go against the nature of such a monster not to retaliate after around 80-100 damage from a puny intruder).
Then, the seeking bolts ignore all concealment, including improved invisibility or sleet storm (which does not impede the movement of a flying monk), provided the monk will be able to pinpoint the dragon (with his high listen check not that unlikely).
Wind wall would be quite good, but "freezes" (pun intended) the white dragon in his place and that dragon would then still be open to melee/flyby attacks of the monk where he is likewise superior.
As a DM I would likely let the dragon dimension door away - against which I do not have that much of a strategy so far (OK, if the monk is able to hear from afar in the cave where the dragon his, he could dim door after him). Will think on that. Maybe shouting out to destroy the dragon's treasure would get the dragon back - but likely also buffed :smallbiggrin:



Non-viable, I think. AC is firstly, way too low. At 20th level, you need to be a tough target before temp buffs.

Hmm. Unbuffed, that's AC 40 when the monk is defensive. That is not too bad for level 20, in particular with the ability to go etheral when needed and with a ring of blinking.


You can buff, then teleport, but what if the dragon has his lair defended magically? At the age category we're talking, a Dimension Lock effect isn't out of line.

Dimension Lock is 8th level spell, which that dragon can only cast from items (scrolls for non-custom items only, or a too expensive greater ring of spell storing). It also would prevent the monk from entering the lair via teleport in the first place, but only in 20ft radius area. The rest is OK. And the area can still be entered etherally.


That would pretty much mean character death for this guy, as the dragon could hide burrowed until the spells wore off, then eat you alive in a grapple. (grapple advantage of +15 for dragon, and it wins ties, due to a higher modifier. That means about a 2.3% chance of winning grapple, as your high roll must come in conjunction with a low roll from the dragon).

You do not seem to realise that this is not about the monk able to escape the dragon or survive. It is the other way round.
Burrowing does not help the dragon, since the monk can move after him etherally easily. Grappling does not help the dragon, since the monk can simply blink out of the grapple. Moreover, the dragon then has made a fatal mistake: the monk is now within full flurry full attack melee range for the monk.


Further, the majority of your boosts are coming from the cleric buff build, cheesed in with little room for error (short durations). The dragon has one innate ability that nerfs ranged attack (Solid Fog), and likely at least one cast ability (Improved invisibility, Wind Wall, etc).

The key buffs are up 14 rounds, enough for most high-level combats. The solid fog may come up after the first ranged attack, but the monk can simply move etherally through it.


The dragon WILL be able to effectively melee this character. Especially under a spell effect like improved invisibility, which you'll have a rough time getting through.

No. Seeking arrows (ranged) or blind-fighting (melee). The dragon will have to overcome the blink effect, most of all. Ghost touch or see invisiblity effects would help, but cost time to get up.


At best, this build has a 50/50 shot, which isn't enough for level 20. At level 20, you should be able to solo a CR 18 as a standard encounter. If you got a 50/50 at level 15? Then we're talking.

50/50 may be done at level 15, although that would surprise even me. Will try it.


Further, even if this build was 100% reliable and effective, it's still out of the running, as the current reliable monk build for victory is sitting at ECL 13.

It is not out of a running since you specified a lvl 1-20 build to showcase that a monk is powerful enough at high levels. This the above build has shown.
That someone outside core rules has developed a monk at ECL 13 to overcome a CR 18 dragon, though, deserves my full-hearted applause. And it showcases also that the monk is not an underpowered class even outside core.

And finally, Armads...


The Dragonhunter Monk uses no Monklike abilities. It could well be an expert with the same amount of wealth buying the same magical buffs. You're not even using a monk weapon. You're using a CROSSBOW.

Do you even believe yourself what you write here?
- monk abilities: monk AC, monk greater flurry in melee, etheralness, move, dimension door, stun, quivering palm, SR shutting down dragon spell attacks, saves doing more of the same, improved evasion negating breath weapon...I guess pretty much all abilities excepting the immunity to disease and poison will matter in this combat vs the ancient white...:smallamused:
- the expert using the same amount of wealth would have less AC, less hp, less saves, no SR, no non-dispellable way out of trouble, no move matching the dragon's burrowing option, less attacks, no special attacks. I may have missed out more, but I tire explaining the same stuff again and again to you.
- the monk uses a monk weapon. The sai and unarmed strikes. You cannot go more monk than that. Ah, and the monk has the crossbow weapon proficiency - why again shouldn't he use it?


Also, what if the dragon has a scroll of disjunction? Can you do anything without your buffs?

Now THAT is quite a good idea - but not as easy as it seems. First of all, will the dragon be able to use it? But let us assume he has enough UMD to reliably emulate the missing ability score (the dragon has maybe a CHR enhancer +4 like a rod of splendour, still that is only CHR 18). Then, he has to have it at hand...er claw. To retrieve it, a move action. And to cast it, a standard action. Which means that the monk will have to be within 40ft- unlikely since the monk is in crossbow range to avoid meleeing at first. And since the dragon had to retrieve the scroll first, he can no longer move more closely.
The scroll COULD be used during combat at point or another, but will the dragon really use that scroll? Or rather use his breath weapons, solid fogs, burrowings etc. before it realises it cannot win this way?

- Giacomo

Talya
2008-01-03, 08:32 AM
Neat, but one minor issue.
AC40 vs. dragon attack bonus of +39. See an issue yet? (I think you're better off focusing on wisdom, then grabbing the +wis to attack feat instead of weapon finesse...but that's not in core, of course.)

Your saves are such that disjunction is not likely to cost you many items.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-01-03, 08:51 AM
Hmm...I can try to do that. But likely the balancing of the rules does not back up a character soloing a creature of a CR three levels ABOVE your own. It can be done with same level characters, likely (due to the higher specialisation possible and more items).
A spellcaster would have no problem, I'd like to point out, but the point isn't to solo a CR 18 dragon at level 15.
The point is that your build uses about 700,000 gp worth of items. This is possible at level 20, but at level 15 you've only got, what, 200,000?
You can dismiss flight, Freedom of Movement, spell storing, etc. as being effects availible in item form... but up until levels 18-20 you've got to make some VERY tough choices--especially since you have to maintain your AC, too.



That's why I mentioned above that it is not a safe win of the monk.
But the dragon will have to come up with more than what you mentioned. First of all, he will have to cast the stuff first, costing him a standard action as no rod or feat of quicken could help his spontaneous spells in that respect (this might go against the nature of such a monster not to retaliate after around 80-100 damage from a puny intruder).
The white dragon, under assault by fiery bolts, is very likely to burrow down, cast a few buffs, and then come back up. When it comes up, it's invisible, fire-resistant, blinking (it can cast it straight up)... and has waited for your buffs to expire.


Then, the seeking bolts ignore all concealment, including improved invisibility or sleet storm (which does not impede the movement of a flying monk), provided the monk will be able to pinpoint the dragon (with his high listen check not that unlikely).
Wind wall would be quite good, but "freezes" (pun intended) the white dragon in his place and that dragon would then still be open to melee/flyby attacks of the monk where he is likewise superior.
Your monk is not superior to the dragon in melee. Seeking bolts negate concealment, but you have to have a square to fire them at; hide/move silently are class skills for the dragon, it can burrow, and sleet storm has a 40' radius and cuts off all vision--you can't see it. Similarily, pinpointing a far-away invisible enemy with Listen is nearly impossible (range penalties).

Trading Flyby Attacks with the dragon would end poorly for you.


Hmm. Unbuffed, that's AC 40 when the monk is defensive. That is not too bad for level 20, in particular with the ability to go etheral when needed and with a ring of blinking.
What do you do in fights when you don't have ten rounds to put up all your buffs? Why does anyone care about your "defensive" AC when you're not *doing* anything while fighting with combat expertise?


You do not seem to realise that this is not about the monk able to escape the dragon or survive. It is the other way round.
Burrowing does not help the dragon, since the monk can move after him etherally easily. Grappling does not help the dragon, since the monk can simply blink out of the grapple. Moreover, the dragon then has made a fatal mistake: the monk is now within full flurry full attack melee range for the monk.
With its buffs, many of them long-duration, the dragon isn't really afraid of your melee flurry. It can blink, too, meaning it hits you no problem, and it can be both blinking and Greater Invisible.
Mage Armor, likely the first spell any dragon picks up, is hours/level, boosting its AC to 41. A Ring of Protection +3 is easily affordable, the AC becoming 44. An amulet of Natural Armor +3 makes it 47, which means that even fully buffed, your first attack only hits its AC half the time.

Burrowing helps the dragon, because you can't hit it while you're ethereal and you can't stay inside the ground while you're not. The dragon's burrowing doesn't leave a tunnel.


The key buffs are up 14 rounds, enough for most high-level combats. The solid fog may come up after the first ranged attack, but the monk can simply move etherally through it.
The dragon casts spells and has Spellcraft. He can tell you have spells up and identify many of them; he can tell you're not a spellcaster yourself, so they're probably low-CL/short-duration.


No. Seeking arrows (ranged) or blind-fighting (melee). The dragon will have to overcome the blink effect, most of all. Ghost touch or see invisiblity effects would help, but cost time to get up.
The dragon can deal with Blink by casting Blink. Even if it misses 50% of the time, though, it's got, what, six attacks on a full attack, and it hits you on anything but a 1 when you have AC 40 (and this being before the dragon buffs)?


It is not out of a running since you specified a lvl 1-20 build to showcase that a monk is powerful enough at high levels. This the above build has shown.
That someone outside core rules has developed a monk at ECL 13 to overcome a CR 18 dragon, though, deserves my full-hearted applause. And it showcases also that the monk is not an underpowered class even outside core.
The power of the ECL 13 build comes from stacking AC buffs and Psionic Fist (entering Psionic Fist without monk would make the build better, not worse); it also assumes the dragon trades attacks futilely.

I'm afraid you haven't really shown the monk is powerful enough at high levels. You're expending once-per-day resources like the spells in both of your Rings of Spell Storing, NPC-cast spells (how are you going to get those once you're *not* in a city and teleporting to a lair you know the exact location of?), you're starting the fight after spending seven rounds or so buffing up (this is NOT a luxury you have in 90% of games), you're two levels higher than the monster's CR...

...and you're still not guaranteed a win (if anything, the dragon is, because as soon as your buffs run out you're screwed and it can wait you out).

Sorry, but this isn't terribly convincing. In fact, I'm wondering how you're managing to hold this up as an example of monks being strong, when even with a use of resources (NPC-cast buffs and four spell-stored spells) that in no way resemble how encounter after encounter in games go and a level advantage (and not even just any level advantage--18 to 20 brings a HUGE wealth increase), you're outmatched by the monster if it's played at all intelligently (and with an INT of 14, it's not exactly dumb).
Edit: In fact, looking over things, I underestimated how much prebuffing you had to do--stuff like a Potion of Good Hope is definitely not take-before-every-encounter fare, and with the low CLs of most of your buffs, a single dispel from the dragon would blow most of them out like candles.

Sir Giacomo
2008-01-03, 08:54 AM
Neat, but one minor issue.
AC40 vs. dragon attack bonus of +39. See an issue yet? (I think you're better off focusing on wisdom, then grabbing the +wis to attack feat instead of weapon finesse...but that's not in core, of course.)

Thanks! Yes, vs a dragon with +39 attack an AC of 40 is not that much help. The ring of blinking or concealment (like from the eversmoking bottle) would help, though. But higher WIS may be an idea...in particular for the 15th level monk attempt.


Your saves are such that disjunction is not likely to cost you many items.

Yep - Armads likely referred to the buff dispelling part, though. Which is good if the monk is in range.

- Giacomo

Sir Giacomo
2008-01-03, 02:44 PM
A spellcaster would have no problem, I'd like to point out, but the point isn't to solo a CR 18 dragon at level 15.

A spellcaster would have problems, if the dragon does all the stuff you would think it should do if it is not dumb (solid fog, burrowing, buff etc.).


The point is that your build uses about 700,000 gp worth of items. This is possible at level 20, but at level 15 you've only got, what, 200,000?
You can dismiss flight, Freedom of Movement, spell storing, etc. as being effects availible in item form... but up until levels 18-20 you've got to make some VERY tough choices--especially since you have to maintain your AC, too.

Note that the OP said something about wbl guidelines. I chose lvl 20 because some posters – including you – would even deny that at that level a monk could shine. It can.
I’ll post a level 15 monk able to have at least a chance vs that dragon, but something tells me that there will still be complaints about the items attacking the dragon, and not the monk.
It is hard for some to accept the wbl as a balancing factor in the game- I also do not like it. But at least I would admit it is houseruling to handle it differently and then not whine about class imbalance.


The white dragon, under assault by fiery bolts, is very likely to burrow down, cast a few buffs, and then come back up. When it comes up, it's invisible, fire-resistant, blinking (it can cast it straight up)... and has waited for your buffs to expire.
Your monk is not superior to the dragon in melee. Seeking bolts negate concealment, but you have to have a square to fire them at; hide/move silently are class skills for the dragon, it can burrow, and sleet storm has a 40' radius and cuts off all vision--you can't see it. Similarily, pinpointing a far-away invisible enemy with Listen is nearly impossible (range penalties).

Well, a huge creature inside a cave – it is not exactly as if the monk could miss that much. Hide needs 1) a move-equivalent action and 2) cannot be done while observed. Then, the monk could also attack when the dragon is flying around, or attacking a nearby village or some such.
All the good buff spells and even solid fog needs TIME to cast in this situation and simply do not last long be already active at 9th level sorcerer spellcasting (i.e. unlikely that they have been „by chance“ cast at the moment the monk appears in the cave). Exception to the rule: mage armour. A good point you made.
Also quite good is burrowing, but if moving silently, it is reduced to 15ft. – not enough to be completely gone. And to be honest, if the dragon burrows in cave through rock and ice, as a DM I would put quite a hefty penalty on remaining silent, if it can be even considered possible (the buffed listen check of the monk at that time is at +29)


Trading Flyby Attacks with the dragon would end poorly for you.

Not necessarily. Here’s why: In every single attack, the monk adds a stunning fist and does more damage (possibly even massive damage). Even if somehow the white dragon also has a blink effect on (the spell known is not enough, it will need an item to stay even) AND a blind-fighting feat, the monk will win eventually. Note that the key buffs are on the monk for 14 rounds. A lot can happen in that time.


What do you do in fights when you don't have ten rounds to put up all your buffs? Why does anyone care about your "defensive" AC when you're not *doing* anything while fighting with combat expertise?

The high mobility, spot, hide, listen, move silently and etheralness as well as dimension door all enable the monk to choose the time of the combat. It is not 100% safe (for instance, the dragon may not be in its lair), but it is a good advantage.
When using expertise and fighting defensively you can still attack, either as a standard action attack or full attack. This „not doing anything“.


With its buffs, many of them long-duration, the dragon isn't really afraid of your melee flurry. It can blink, too, meaning it hits you no problem, and it can be both blinking and Greater Invisible.

For this, after having lost the first round to the superior initiative of the monk, the dragon needs two standard actions. It is unlikely the dragon had this buffed beforehand since the duration is so short. But true, a blinking effect also makes improves the dragon’s defenses. Will think on that.


Mage Armor, likely the first spell any dragon picks up, is hours/level, boosting its AC to 41. A Ring of Protection +3 is easily affordable, the AC becoming 44. An amulet of Natural Armor +3 makes it 47, which means that even fully buffed, your first ranged attack only hits its AC half the time.

Mage armour is good, as is a ring of protection (could be that a CR 18 dragon hoard is about 47,000 gp on average-I’m not sure if this DMG guideline applies to a dragon hoard; if that is the case, a ring of blinking would be quite unusual). Hmmm. This means the level 20 monk has to invest more money in getting higher to hit bonuses (and abandoning the enlarge pre-combat buff, netting another +2 to hit). But I think instead I’ll concentrate on doing a level 15 monk to be able to face the dragon.


Burrowing helps the dragon, because you can't hit it while you're ethereal and you can't stay inside the ground while you're not. The dragon's burrowing doesn't leave a tunnel.

If the dragon used a blink spell before, it can be hit by an etheral creature or it has to end the blink spell with a standard action. While blinking, it is impossbile to burrow, I daresay. Probably while burrowing it can likewise not cast buff spells with somatic components since there is no room to maneuver for delicate spellcasting. The monk going etherally after the dragon that burrows can observe where it is going and then continue to attack.



The dragon casts spells and has Spellcraft. He can tell you have spells up and identify many of them; he can tell you're not a spellcaster yourself, so they're probably low-CL/short-duration.

He can only identify spells up with spellcraft that have visible effects. Blinking, enlarge are visible effects. Divine power or holy weapon is not. Plus, the monk with disguise self effect can pose as anything to confuse the dragon, for instance into believing it IS a spellcaster (say, a cleric or good outsider).


The dragon can deal with Blink by casting Blink. Even if it misses 50% of the time, though, it's got, what, six attacks on a full attack, and it hits you on anything but a 1 when you have AC 40 (and this being before the dragon buffs)?

Likely it will not be able to full attack the tumbling monk if the monk does not allow it.


The power of the ECL 13 build comes from stacking AC buffs and Psionic Fist (entering Psionic Fist without monk would make the build better, not worse); it also assumes the dragon trades attacks futilely.

Hmmmm...maybe. I'm no psionics expert. So far, I take Talic’s opinion on this that it is a viable monk build - but to make sure I'll try the 15th level monk.:smallsmile:


I'm afraid you haven't really shown the monk is powerful enough at high levels. You're expending once-per-day resources like the spells in both of your Rings of Spell Storing, NPC-cast spells (how are you going to get those once you're *not* in a city and teleporting to a lair you know the exact location of?), you're starting the fight after spending seven rounds or so buffing up (this is NOT a luxury you have in 90% of games), you're two levels higher than the monster's CR...
...and you're still not guaranteed a win (if anything, the dragon is, because as soon as your buffs run out you're screwed and it can wait you out).
Sorry, but this isn't terribly convincing. In fact, I'm wondering how you're managing to hold this up as an example of monks being strong, when even with a use of resources (NPC-cast buffs and four spell-stored spells) that in no way resemble how encounter after encounter in games go and a level advantage (and not even just any level advantage--18 to 20 brings a HUGE wealth increase), you're outmatched by the monster if it's played at all intelligently (and with an INT of 14, it's not exactly dumb).


You see, normally I make the point of balanced core classes and non-caster (including) monk power not in a houseruled setting like this where no leadership, no polymorph and no UMD and no diplomacy is allowed to play a role. When using wands to get the nice lvl 1-4 buffs that the monk build used, it is much cheaper, already available at much lower levels and certainly not „once per day“.
Then, even the rings of spell storing hardly are once-per-day items. In a group, the pc spellcasters can greatly help their monk friend by filling up the ring slots regularly. Alternatively, refilling the spells regularly by npcs like a 7th level cleric and 16th level paladin are likewise not that expensive. The monk could even teleport away, refill, rebuff and come back in the same day with his helm of teleportation.
Buffing for 2 rounds (in this case, really only the divine power and holy weapon are needed and maybe enlarge) is not that unusual, in particular at times when you can teleport next to someone and win the initiative. And CERTAINLY it is more common than the 10% you think when the party goes against a BBEG.
Similarly, a lvl 12 cleric npc is not thaat unlikely in a setting when the lone monk needs to go against such a monster (maybe the cleric is the priest of a nearby viking community that asked for help?). But similarly, the cleric buffs are not that important (although that npc cleric easily can regularly help out with refilling the divine power spell).
Now FINDING the dragon’s lair is another matter – a knowledge arcane skill of +25 is not necessarily enough for this, the monk needs to do a real adventure to find out more about it (or could ask npc spellcasters or bards for more information- with UMD, of course, a simple wand of legend lore can do the trick).

But thanks for the feedback, I’ll try a level 15 monk build that includes it.

- Giacomo



Edit: In fact, looking over things, I underestimated how much prebuffing you had to do--stuff like a Potion of Good Hope is definitely not take-before-every-encounter fare, and with the low CLs of most of your buffs, a single dispel from the dragon would blow most of them out like candles.

Concerning your edit: It would not vs a blinking monk, since the targeted dispel would not work (additionally, the dragon at caster level 9 hardly blows out the level 1-7 caster level buffs out "like candles"). Similarly, a sleet storm or solid fog blocks targeted dispel. And area dispels only get rid of one buff at a time.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-01-03, 05:33 PM
A spellcaster would have problems, if the dragon does all the stuff you would think it should do if it is not dumb (solid fog, burrowing, buff etc.).
A spellcaster's buffs don't run out in 7-14 rounds. A spellcaster also has more ability to cope with the dragon's tactics and to disable it.


Note that the OP said something about wbl guidelines. I chose lvl 20 because some posters – including you – would even deny that at that level a monk could shine. It can.
Sure, at level 20, when you have 760,000 gp to throw around, even a monk can shine. But you haven't exactly shown that.
And that's level 20. Maybe you don't play at low levels, but it's not like characters can continually spare 10,000 gp here and 10,000 gp there throughout their careers. That's why I mention a level 15 monk--because at level 15 you're working with 200,000 gp (and still have the advantage of not having any of it spent on consumables).


I’ll post a level 15 monk able to have at least a chance vs that dragon, but something tells me that there will still be complaints about the items attacking the dragon, and not the monk.
It is hard for some to accept the wbl as a balancing factor in the game- I also do not like it. But at least I would admit it is houseruling to handle it differently and then not whine about class imbalance.
WBL is not a balancing factor, because spellcasters get it, too, and can do their own things with it (metamagic rods, anyone? A quickened Greater Dispel plus a rod-maximized, rod-empowered Meteor Swarm is going to annihilate the white dragon in one round, and the wizard can do that thrice a day, from 300 feet away, for the price of two spell slots and two rod charges each). What's more, even if you can cover all of your weaknesses with your WBL, you can't do it until level 20. Wings of Flying are over 50,000 gp; ring of Freedom of Movement, 40,000 gp; Ring of Spell Storing, 50,000 gp; if you're using a Wand of Holy Sword on a regular basis, that's 21,000 gp over and over. And let's not forget the AC, ability score, and saving-throw increasers, as well as weapons, which generally come first.


Well, a huge creature inside a cave – it is not exactly as if the monk could miss that much. Hide needs 1) a move-equivalent action and 2) cannot be done while observed. Then, the monk could also attack when the dragon is flying around, or attacking a nearby village or some such.
The dragon can burrow into the ground wherever it is. Locating a dragon that's flying around (and can out-fly you, I note) is not an easy task.
The dragon's Huge size means a -8 hide penalty, but an Ancient white has 30 HD, which gives it 33 ranks. It may have a circumstance bonus for being a white dragon in a snowy/icy cave, and with the distance Spot penalty, it can easily hide from people outside.


All the good buff spells and even solid fog needs TIME to cast in this situation and simply do not last long be already active at 9th level sorcerer spellcasting (i.e. unlikely that they have been „by chance“ cast at the moment the monk appears in the cave). Exception to the rule: mage armour. A good point you made.
The dragon has little to do with its spell slots other than amuse itself and keep itself buffed Using regular (90-minute) and extended (3-hour) resist energy spells to keep myself fireproof is definitely something I'd consider, if I were a white dragon. Basically, you can definitely expect at least some 10-minute-per-level spells to be up, too.

Also quite good is burrowing, but if moving silently, it is reduced to 15ft. – not enough to be completely gone. And to be honest, if the dragon burrows in cave through rock and ice, as a DM I would put quite a hefty penalty on remaining silent, if it can be even considered possible (the buffed listen check of the monk at that time is at +29)




Not necessarily. Here’s why: In every single attack, the monk adds a stunning fist and does more damage (possibly even massive damage). Even if somehow the white dragon also has a blink effect on (the spell known is not enough, it will need an item to stay even) AND a blind-fighting feat, the monk will win eventually. Note that the key buffs are on the monk for 14 rounds. A lot can happen in that time.
The power-attacking dragon will outdo you damage-wise, and its stunning fists aren't bothering you. The white dragon doesn't need an item, since it casts the Blink itself. The key buffs also aren't on for 14 rounds. For example:
-You get Enlarge Person and Shield, which are minutes/level, cast.
-You cast Extended Holy Sword from your ring. 14 rounds left on the Holy Sword.
-You cast Extended Divine Power from your ring. 14 rounds left on the Divine Power, 13 on the Holy Sword.
-You give your Ring of Blinking the command word. HS 12, DP 13.
-You Teleport on over and look around. HS 11, DP 12, Blink 6.
-You fire some shots at the dragon, maybe hitting. HS 10, DP 11, Blink 5.
-The dragon throws a Freezing Fog onto you in response. You activate your etherealness and move out. HS 9, DP 10, Blink 4.
-The dragon casts Greater Invisibility and moves.
-You do... whatever it is you do. Listen for it and fire at it, let's say, or use See Invisibility from an item. HS 8, DP 9, Blink 3.
-Surprised, the dragon casts Blink.
-You take the advantage to full attack! With at least 20% of your shots missing and even the first only hitting half the time, plus with its Resist Energy ablating your fire damage, you definitely don't hurt it too much. HS 8, DP 9, Blink 3.
-The dragon throws a Dispel at you. You lose, let's say only the Divine Power.
-You full attack it again, without the Divine Power. HS 7, Blink 2.
-The dragon throws up a Wind Wall.
-You flyby attack it in melee. HS 6, Blink 1.
-The dragon, say, casts Shield.
-You flyby attack it again, with Stunning Fist. Either you miss (you don't have Divine Power, it has Shield and Greater Invisibility) or it saves. HS 6, blink's gone.

So without any active stalling tactics whatsoever, just the dragon getting its buffs up and the like, you're down to 5 rounds (presumably you put your Blink back up the next round) and have a spell gone--or are down to 5 and 6 rounds if the dispel didn't happen. Oh, and if your Enlarge Person was CL 1 or 2, it's gone. Your Mage Armor got wiped out by the dispel, too. As the rounds pass, your buffs wind down while the dragon's wind up, and trading attacks becomes more and more favorable for it. Maybe it casts Mirror Image next, not concerned about your single attacks (between its high AC and your high miss chance). By the time it wades out to start biting at you, you're out of buffs and are frantically teleporting away. And now it's more familiar with you.

And that's if it DOESN'T just sit underground for, say, 15 rounds.



The high mobility, spot, hide, listen, move silently and etheralness as well as dimension door all enable the monk to choose the time of the combat. It is not 100% safe (for instance, the dragon may not be in its lair), but it is a good advantage.
When using expertise and fighting defensively you can still attack, either as a standard action attack or full attack. This „not doing anything“.
And if you choose the time of the combat, the dragon can burrow into the ground where you can't follow--etherealness will let you pass through the ground, but not attack the dragon.


For this, after having lost the first round to the superior initiative of the monk, the dragon needs two standard actions. It is unlikely the dragon had this buffed beforehand since the duration is so short. But true, a blinking effect also makes improves the dragon’s defenses. Will think on that.
The dragon can burrow and then spellcast, or go invisible and then spellcast. And every round it spends buffing is a round closer to your buffs running out.


Mage armour is good, as is a ring of protection (could be that a CR 18 dragon hoard is about 47,000 gp on average-I’m not sure if this DMG guideline applies to a dragon hoard; if that is the case, a ring of blinking would be quite unusual). Hmmm. This means the level 20 monk has to invest more money in getting higher to hit bonuses (and abandoning the enlarge pre-combat buff, netting another +2 to hit). But I think instead I’ll concentrate on doing a level 15 monk to be able to face the dragon.
Dragons have "triple standard" treasure for their CR, so odds are the dragon can afford a few items and has them.


If the dragon used a blink spell before, it can be hit by an etheral creature or it has to end the blink spell with a standard action. While blinking, it is impossbile to burrow, I daresay. Probably while burrowing it can likewise not cast buff spells with somatic components since there is no room to maneuver for delicate spellcasting. The monk going etherally after the dragon that burrows can observe where it is going and then continue to attack.
How does the monk attack the burrowed dragon, which sits in the ground? Blink definitely does NOT stop it from burrowing; I have no idea where you're getting that. Burrowing also does not stop it from spellcasting, that's also an invention of yours. If it has room enough to move, it has room enough to waggle its claws, and the rules certainly don't back you up.


He can only identify spells up with spellcraft that have visible effects. Blinking, enlarge are visible effects. Divine power or holy weapon is not. Plus, the monk with disguise self effect can pose as anything to confuse the dragon, for instance into believing it IS a spellcaster (say, a cleric or good outsider).
After feeling a single hit, Holy Sword's definitely an effect he can identify with spellcraft--maybe even after feeling the Magic Circle Against Evil effect.


Likely it will not be able to full attack the tumbling monk if the monk does not allow it.
You were talking about trading full attacks. Trading attacks one-to-one is also going to work out in the dragon's favor; its Fort save shrugs off Stunning Fist nineteen times out of twenty and it's capable of massive damage, too (since it can afford to Power Attack).


You see, normally I make the point of balanced core classes and non-caster (including) monk power not in a houseruled setting like this where no leadership, no polymorph and no UMD and no diplomacy is allowed to play a role. When using wands to get the nice lvl 1-4 buffs that the monk build used, it is much cheaper, already available at much lower levels and certainly not „once per day“.
Leadership is a non-factor. If you're arguing that a class is balanced because it can take Leadership, commoners are balanced--a commoner whose cohort is a wizard, cleric, or druid is going to be contributing at least as much(through the cohort) as the party fighter or rogue.
A wizard taking a cleric or druid as a cohort is going to almost double his contributions--meanwhile, the monk apparently needs Leadership just to make him able to contribute at all. Two spellcasters doing the usual thing is a lot more effective than one monk and one spellcaster buffing the monk all the time. In fact, the commoner taking Leadership and getting a wizard who acts like a normal wizard is going to contribute more than the monk whose cohort focuses on buffing him. That same commoner can also raise Use Magic Device, more easily than the monk (since he has no particular need for all the stats the monk does), and if UMD is all he does, he can spend far, far more on it than the monk can.

Polymorph is a non-argument. The spell is so broken it's the only thing WotC has actually admitted that about (well, it and its greater brother, Shapechange); if you have to use it to do your job, you're doing something wrong. Arguing that polymorph makes your class OK is like arguing that getting infinite wishes through efreeti cheese makes your class OK. Yes, Polymorph can turn into a monk into a melee character--that's lovely. It can do as much for other front-line classes.
And what happens when you don't have one availible? For example, before you can get the 21,000 gp wand, if you're providing your own?

Diplomacy is, again, a broken rule. Being able to make a DC 20 check with the penalty for a standard action means you can turn ANYONE friendly. If your DM allows this, you can bet any enemy he wants you to fight will be mindless, deaf, or otherwise immune.


Then, even the rings of spell storing hardly are once-per-day items. In a group, the pc spellcasters can greatly help their monk friend by filling up the ring slots regularly. Alternatively, refilling the spells regularly by npcs like a 7th level cleric and 16th level paladin are likewise not that expensive. The monk could even teleport away, refill, rebuff and come back in the same day with his helm of teleportation.
Getting NPCs to cast spells for you is likely to require you to wait a day, since odds are they don't have the one you want prepared (NPCs in cities have little reason to prepare Holy Sword or Divine Power).

As for PC spellcasters, I'm amazed. If I'm playing a cleric (say), what on earth makes you entitled to four of my fourth-level spell slots every day? And then some of the wizard's and the paladin's (who gets how many fourth level spells, anyway?), too?
The fact that you need them to contribute? Sorry, it doesn't work that way. As a cleric, I'm glad to toss a Magic Vestment spell your way. Greater Magic Weapon might be a possibility. But if you want me to feed you a Divine Power after every fight... well, I think I'd rather just keep my spell slots. If I'm not using those Divine Powers, it's because I'm using Quickened Divine Powers and my fourth-level slots are going to help the whole party via things like Freedom of Movement, Death Ward, Air Walk, and Greater Magic Weapon.

Maybe the people you play with don't mind taking a background role and are inordinately generous, I don't know... but you can absolutely not typically rely on your party giving you whatever spells you want for your ring. That's not to say everyone only worries about themselves; if you're trapped in a paralysis effect, I'll Freedom of Movement you--that doesn't mean you get to eat all of my fourth-level spell slots. The wizard will almost certainly spare you a Mage Armor... but you're not getting four Shields out of him. And if you do, the party suffers, because those are Silent Image and Ray of Enfeeblement slots.
You don't get to decide that your allies do nothing but buff you, especially when the party becomes *less* effective overall as a result.


Buffing for 2 rounds (in this case, really only the divine power and holy weapon are needed and maybe enlarge) is not that unusual, in particular at times when you can teleport next to someone and win the initiative. And CERTAINLY it is more common than the 10% you think when the party goes against a BBEG.
Divine Power, Holy Sword, Enlarge, Shield, activating your ring of blink (it's a command-word item)... that's not two rounds. You definitely can't do that in a game most of the time--at least in my games, we rarely have enough of a drop on the enemies to be able to buff as much as we'd like. If we do, they're probably pretty tough enemies to make up for it! This is why clerics aim for setting up for melee in one round. And if you've spent two rounds buffing, that's two rounds (the second of which is an important exchange of full attacks, most likely) not hurting anything. I'm sorry, but relying on using two wands at the start of every combat just isn't viable financially or time-wise.


Similarly, a lvl 12 cleric npc is not thaat unlikely in a setting when the lone monk needs to go against such a monster (maybe the cleric is the priest of a nearby viking community that asked for help?). But similarly, the cleric buffs are not that important (although that npc cleric easily can regularly help out with refilling the divine power spell).
The problem with NPC spellcasting is that while it's fine while you're in the city (and possibly can afford to wait a day for them to prepare it), you don't have access to it while you're adventuring... which is, presumably, most of the time. Level 12 cleric NPCs don't just follow adventuring parties around buffing them for craps and giggles, y'know... at least, they don't in my games. They have things to do.


But thanks for the feedback, I’ll try a level 15 monk build that includes it.

- Giacomo
Not having 700,000 gp to throw around... like you don't at any level except 20... is definitely going to make things a lot harder for you.


Concerning your edit: It would not vs a blinking monk, since the targeted dispel would not work (additionally, the dragon at caster level 9 hardly blows out the level 1-7 caster level buffs out "like candles"). Similarly, a sleet storm or solid fog blocks targeted dispel. And area dispels only get rid of one buff at a time.
Why wouldn't a targeted dispel work against a blinking monk? Dispel hits the ethereal plane. And the buffs may not go out "like candles", but it's definitely going to get more than half of them, especially CL 1 Mage Armor and Enlarge Person.

Sir Giacomo
2008-01-07, 06:23 PM
Sorry guys,

it took a while (work starting again and all that)

Here's my attempt at a core monk 15h level taking on an ancient white dragon. The 20th level version above was not really well optimised, I must say, raising the 15th level guy below to level 20 would be truly awesome.

It is somewhat atypical for the monks I would build (it is relying most on STR), but that is likely the only route for a monk trying to emulate a fighter or barbarian in direct attack.

If anyone has improvement ideas or different tactics, pls feel free to comment!

*******

Dragonhunter Monk II

15th level human monk, 28 pt buy

STR 22 (17 start, 3 stat gains, +2 size), DEX 12 (-2 size), CON 12, INT 10, WIS 13 (+2 enhance), CHR 8
INITIATIVE +5 (DEX, feat) +4 once potions of heroism and cat’s grace are up
AC 17 (DEX, monk +4, WIS), 25 with mage armour and shield up, 28 with fighting defensively
HITPOINTS 90 (max lvl 1, +15 CON), +1d8+6 temporary from Hero’s feast
SAVES Fort +12, Refl +12, Will +12/+14 vs enhance (cloak +2) +2 once potion of heroism is up.
SPELL RESISTANCE 25
MOVE 80ft, 110ft flying (good maneuverability)
FEATS: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Stun, Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip (monk bonus feat), Improved Initiative (human bonus feat), Improved Grapple, Blind-Fighting, Improved Natural Attack, Weapon Focus – Unarmed Strike, Improved Critical-Unarmed Strike, Martial Weapon Proficiency- Composite Longbow
ABILITIES: immunity to poison, immunity to disease, improved evasion, stunning fist DC 18 (16/day), quivering palm DC 18, dimension door 1/day as supernatural ability
SKILLS (90 total): Spot +24 (18 ranks, +5 competence, WIS), Listen +19 (18 ranks, WIS), Knowledge Arcane +5 (5 ranks), Tumbling +12 (9 ranks, DEX, jump synergy). Jumping +36 (5 ranks, STR, +20 move, +2 tumble syn), Sense Motive +7 (5 ranks), Spellcraft +11 (9 ranks cross-class, knowledge-Arcane synergy), Diplomacy +2 (1 ranks, CHR, +2 sense motive syn). Move Silently +12 (11 ranks, DEX). +2 to all skill checks once potion of heroism is on.
EQUIPMENT
50,000 Ring of Spell Storing with Divine Power, Bless Weapon
32,302 Gauntlet +3, dragon bane
27,000 Ring of Blinking
20,000 Ring of Invisibility
13,500 Monk’s Belt
12,000 Boots of Speed
11,000 Rod of Metamagic-Extend (normal)
9,000 Composite Longbow +1, STR 22, dragon bane
4,000 Cloak of Resistance +2
4,000 Periapt of WIS +2
3,100 Permanencie’d enlarge at 10th level
2,500 Goggles of Spot +5
2,500 Boots of the Winterlands (worn for journey to dragon’s lair)
1,800 Hat of Disguise (for instance, Ogre or tall wizard)
5 potions each of
1500 Potion of Heroism
1500 Potion of Cat’s Grace
1500 Potion of Flying
1500 Potion of Silence
1500 Potion of See Invisibility
250 Potion of Shield
250 Potion of Mage Armour

Spells cast by npcs prior to combat:
Hero’s Feast, extended with monk’s rod (720 gp)

Attacks with buffs on...
RANGED +23 (+15 BAB/divine power, +3 DEX, +1 enhance, +2 bane, +2 morale from potion of heroism, +1 haste, -1 size penalty). Full attack: +23/+23/+18/+13
Damage 2d6+1 enhance+6 STR, +2 + 2d6 bane=4d6+9 or 23 dmg on average per hit

MELEE +32 (+15 BAB/divine power, +9 STR, +2 morale from potion of heroism, +3 enhance, +2 bane, +1 haste, +1 weapon focus, -1size penalty).
Flurry +32/+32/+32/+32/+27/+22 (+4 in surprise round due to charge and invisibility, +2 in subsequent rounds if blink is activated)
Damage 6d8 (enlarged, improved nat. attack plus monk belt giving lvl 20 base damage) +9 (STR from divine power increase) +3 (enhance) +2 (bane) +2d6 = 48 on average per hit
Grapple: +33


NOTES
- this build will not satisfy Rachel much more, I guess, since it is buff- dependent (I guess around 5-7 potions need to be imbibed, plus two extended castings from the ring of spell storing which after that will get replaced with the ring of blinking (that also needs to get activation, if wanted)
- in this case, though, I guess the buffing for taking on a monster of 3 CR higher ALONE is a highly epic event and should be OK.
- even without all potion or ring buffs, this monk is quite powerful in combat imo and can also be quite a pain for casters at that level (although it is not optimised for that, he has too low initiative and too low saves; and without UMD and various wands for versatility the monk cannot really go casterhunting, anyhow)
- one attack in the surprise round (moving in magic silence AND invisible within 110ft and then partial charging is not THAT unlikely) plus up to 6 attacks in the 1st round (likely initiative is won vs dragon) could do well up to 250-300 damage. This means that on the dragon's turn it WILL realise that it could well die if the unknown attacker strikes again. So it WILL have to retreat somehow. A dimension door, though, is blocked by the silence, and moving away from the monk with reach will mean an attack of opportunity that could mean the end of the dragon. If the dragon, though, at that point does something - in that case- foolish like full attacking the (likely blinking) monk, or breathing on him, or using solid fog, then it could well die.

Overall, not guaranteed to kill the dragon, certainly not perfectly built, but giving the monk a good chance in solo combat vs a monster 3 CR higher, which was what was asked for to illustrate less dependence on expensive items.

- Giacomo

EDIT: actually to try to build any character to solo a creature 3 CR higher than the own level should not be possible but in the rarest of circumstances - in this case, the build is rather specific with two bane weapons and a lot of buffs. It was surprising for me, though, that the monk was able to compete likely with caster builds of 15th level who are also likely to take on a white dragon of that CR with specific spell choices/builds

Talic
2008-01-09, 12:53 AM
That's why I mentioned above that it is not a safe win of the monk.
But the dragon will have to come up with more than what you mentioned. First of all, he will have to cast the stuff first, costing him a standard action as no rod or feat of quicken could help his spontaneous spells in that respect (this might go against the nature of such a monster not to retaliate after around 80-100 damage from a puny intruder).

First, Rods do benefit spontaneous casters.


Then, the seeking bolts ignore all concealment, including improved invisibility or sleet storm (which does not impede the movement of a flying monk), provided the monk will be able to pinpoint the dragon (with his high listen check not that unlikely).

Solid Fog will impede the movement, and an ancient dragon gets it. It also stops projectiles, along with several other abilities.


Wind wall would be quite good, but "freezes" (pun intended) the white dragon in his place and that dragon would then still be open to melee/flyby attacks of the monk where he is likewise superior.

Hardly. Flyby attack grants no immunity from attacks of opportunity. On the first pass, you'd be grappled, and against that grapple mod, you lose.


As a DM I would likely let the dragon dimension door away - against which I do not have that much of a strategy so far (OK, if the monk is able to hear from afar in the cave where the dragon his, he could dim door after him). Will think on that. Maybe shouting out to destroy the dragon's treasure would get the dragon back - but likely also buffed :smallbiggrin:

You assume it needs to DD to run.


Hmm. Unbuffed, that's AC 40 when the monk is defensive. That is not too bad for level 20, in particular with the ability to go etheral when needed and with a ring of blinking.

That means when the monk is defensive and not hitting accurately, the dragon only needs a 3 to hit. Ring of Blinking confers a miss chance to you as well, and dragon will likely as not have a ghost touch like ability.


Dimension Lock is 8th level spell, which that dragon can only cast from items (scrolls for non-custom items only, or a too expensive greater ring of spell storing). It also would prevent the monk from entering the lair via teleport in the first place, but only in 20ft radius area. The rest is OK. And the area can still be entered etherally.

Lair enchantments are featured in Draconomicon. Check it out. It would not be a 20' radius.


You do not seem to realise that this is not about the monk able to escape the dragon or survive. It is the other way round.

Those are intrepid last words of a failed monk.


Burrowing does not help the dragon, since the monk can move after him etherally easily. Grappling does not help the dragon, since the monk can simply blink out of the grapple. Moreover, the dragon then has made a fatal mistake: the monk is now within full flurry full attack melee range for the monk.

Burrow holes close behind the creature unless it wishes otherwise. This means you'd have nowhere to go unethereal, and thus unable to attack. It can wait you out.


The key buffs are up 14 rounds, enough for most high-level combats. The solid fog may come up after the first ranged attack, but the monk can simply move etherally through it.

You rely far too much on ethereal movement. Offense, defense, reaction... You don't have enough of it for all three.


No. Seeking arrows (ranged) or blind-fighting (melee). The dragon will have to overcome the blink effect, most of all. Ghost touch or see invisiblity effects would help, but cost time to get up.

Dragons can blink too. Also, you still only get 2 shots per round, even with rapid reload. 1 on subsequent rounds.


50/50 may be done at level 15, although that would surprise even me. Will try it.

50/50 is Generous. Dragons don't live for hundreds of years by being dumb. The typical white would eat that monk for lunch. Which is still beside the point, as a more viable monk has been created at LEVEL THIRTEEN.



It is not out of a running since you specified a lvl 1-20 build to showcase that a monk is powerful enough at high levels. This the above build has shown.

A superior level 20 build has also been done. I also specified that lowest ECL wins. This is not. Thus, it is out of the running.


That someone outside core rules has developed a monk at ECL 13 to overcome a CR 18 dragon, though, deserves my full-hearted applause. And it showcases also that the monk is not an underpowered class even outside core.

Irrelevant. Contest never specified core rules. You are artificially restricting yourself when you need not. Don't lessen his superior build with such talk, it's not fair to him.
[/QUOTE]

Frosty
2008-01-09, 01:38 AM
Going non-core, deos the Monk get left behind even more? Or the other way around?

horseboy
2008-01-09, 02:40 AM
Thanks! Yes, vs a dragon with +39 attack an AC of 40 is not that much help. The ring of blinking or concealment (like from the eversmoking bottle) would help, though. But higher WIS may be an idea...in particular for the 15th level monk attempt.
- Giacomo
Eversomoking bottle? Do dragons not wing buffet this edition?

Talic
2008-01-09, 02:44 AM
Eversomoking bottle? Do dragons not wing buffet this edition?

Indeed they do. Also, the Draconomicon also has guidelines for the effects of wind on a low-hovering dragon. Smoke doesn't last long in that situation.

Khanderas
2008-01-09, 10:10 AM
That someone outside core rules has developed a monk at ECL 13 to overcome a CR 18 dragon, though, deserves my full-hearted applause. And it showcases also that the monk is not an underpowered class even outside core.

Irrelevant. Contest never specified core rules. You are artificially restricting yourself when you need not. Don't lessen his superior build with such talk, it's not fair to him.

He was not ragging on using non-core, he applauded it.
He limited himself because if he didn't you could bet any viable extremity someone would dismiss his build because it was "noncore-cheese". He knows that, and used core accordingly.

Also, I find G.'s builds well made. Has tactics and anticipations on what the dragon would do (example: alter self like illusions to look like a non-monk class, so the dragon would waste time using breath weapons).
That he needs WBL and buffs to do it, matters not. The object was to make a monk character, without übercheese, that stood a good chance vs the white dragon. Weather you think some other class could do it better matters not. The challenge was made and adequatly I feel.
(Saying "The dragon has a counter for that" is not enough. It is not schrodingers dragon here, who would cast disjunction on the lone archer as the first action instead of a nice breath attack.)

Ne0
2008-01-09, 10:35 AM
Not planning on adding anything big, but I saw some comments about the monk needing the ability to fly. At 20th level, a monk can go ethereal - and thus gains the ability to fly - 20 rounds/day. Just mentioning. :smallsmile:

Frosty
2008-01-09, 12:27 PM
SG's monk character is good. It's not my personal style, but it's good. I don't like relying too much on dispellable buffs myself because there has been many times when my DM surprises us with combat and there's nothing you can do to prepare for it, due to plot or other things. There *will* be times when you need to fight from round 1 or round 2, and I don't like characters that need 7 rounds to buff.

tyckspoon
2008-01-09, 08:25 PM
Also, I find G.'s builds well made. Has tactics and anticipations on what the dragon would do (example: alter self like illusions to look like a non-monk class, so the dragon would waste time using breath weapons).

(Saying "The dragon has a counter for that" is not enough. It is not schrodingers dragon here, who would cast disjunction on the lone archer as the first action instead of a nice breath attack.)

Breath weapons are actually very poor choices for an attack against a single opponent, especially for dragons with poor ones like the White. 10d6 damage allowing a Ref save at CR 18? Laughable- the dragon could get almost as much damage by casting a fireball or lightning bolt, albeit it at a much lesser DC. A non-stupid first move would involve something like casting Bloodwind (our dragon reads the Spell Compendium) to make a full attack, using one of the dragon's spell-like abilities to try and contain the opponent while moving up to prepare for a full attack, or just moving up and making a bite attack, which does more reliable damage than the breath attack and puts the dragon in position to potentially make a full attack next round (if said dragon has Snatch, it also functions to control the opponent by pitting him against the dragon's +49 grapple check.)

Khanderas
2008-01-10, 02:19 AM
Breath weapons are actually very poor choices for an attack against a single opponent, especially for dragons with poor ones like the White. 10d6 damage allowing a Ref save at CR 18? Laughable- the dragon could get almost as much damage by casting a fireball or lightning bolt, albeit it at a much lesser DC. A non-stupid first move would involve something like casting Bloodwind (our dragon reads the Spell Compendium) to make a full attack, using one of the dragon's spell-like abilities to try and contain the opponent while moving up to prepare for a full attack, or just moving up and making a bite attack, which does more reliable damage than the breath attack and puts the dragon in position to potentially make a full attack next round (if said dragon has Snatch, it also functions to control the opponent by pitting him against the dragon's +49 grapple check.)

Of course it sucks, thats why he wants to trick the dragon to use it. If a lone archer shoots you in the snout while you were sleeping would you expect a trap ? Yes you would. Is it very possible that the trap involves you running after the bait (the archer) ? Yes very much so.

In this case it isn't but we are running the assumption the dragon does not know everything you do and can't go shrödringer on us. SG specifically mentioned he problebly would put on a disguise to fool the dragon to think he was infact NOT a monk with evasion, but problebly a wizard or other person with poor reflex/fort saves in general.

Then I also have an opinion on weather dragons get to read the Spell Compendium, due to:
a) being NPC's
b) not belonging to a Wizards guild
c) picking their spells growing up, not just "Im an ancient white dragon. For that age I pick the following spells to know..."

Talic
2008-01-10, 02:23 AM
Point is, most dragons know that for breath weapons to be effective, they have to be used on multiple targets. Otherwise, melee is usually the better choice for a dragon, both in accuracy and in overall damage dealt.

When there's only one foe, monk or not, the inclination of a dragon is to AVOID the breath weapon. Whites do like frozen food, but a corpse can be breathed on just as effectively.

In addition, there are basic rules faults with Sir G's level 15 build. First, it uses dragonbane gauntlets with improved natural attack. Gauntlets are weapons, not natural attacks. The two do not stack with that feat, nor with monk unarmed attack damage. That's just glancing at the build. There are likely a few other basic misunderstandings in it. It's not a bad attempt, but I'd like the errors taken care of before I seriously evaluate it.

Khanderas
2008-01-10, 02:57 AM
Point is, most dragons know that for breath weapons to be effective, they have to be used on multiple targets. Otherwise, melee is usually the better choice for a dragon, both in accuracy and in overall damage dealt.

When there's only one foe, monk or not, the inclination of a dragon is to AVOID the breath weapon. Whites do like frozen food, but a corpse can be breathed on just as effectively.

Agreed, but if I was that dragon I would assume there was hidden / invisible foes in range. You and I know the monk comes for single combat. The dragon does not. Not being suspicious enough to suspect a trap would problebly have gotten that dragon killed centuries earlier, it MUST think it is a trap as its initial reaction, and charging towards the only visible target is problebly not logical.

Either the dragon think that the foe is an easy fool. -Blast him dead. Not likely though since the first hit was an aweful lot of damage.
Then the dragon must think it is a seriuos threat, and by extension it's a trap.


Now, I'm not saying the dragon is forced to use a breathweapon, I'm just saying it is a fair possibility, and a favorable to the monk to boot (given saves and evasion).
If I was said dragon, I would, if cornered like that, put up a wall of some kind to buy time to ascertain there was noone else there. THEN go in to smash him up but good. It should be noted that the monk dont really want the option of melee, but is prepared in that as well.



My main problem with this thread was just the blatant dismissal rampart in the thread on that monkbuild.
Very few "nice job, could work, perhaps the dragon could do X though"
Lots of "Nuh uh, dragon casts X, wins and you lose". Because all dragons are batman, always knows the monk got evasion and great saves, never suspects a trap (unless it IS a trap, then they always knows it's a trap).

tyckspoon
2008-01-10, 03:05 AM
It's got that nifty Freezing Fog spell-like three times a day. It uses that. If whatever is attacking it is *not* a threat, the enemy is now stuck in the middle of the fog, probably also greased to the floor, and can be eaten at the dragon's leisure. That's a win for the dragon- it gets to play with its food before eating it. If it *is* a threat, the fog will force the enemy to show its hand in using an ability that can get it out of the fog or dispel it, and the dragon will be able to react appropriately. That's also a win for the dragon; it has retaken the initiative that was lost when somebody ambushed it, assuming it was successfully ambushed. White dragons are dumb, as dragons go, but the one under discussion is at 14 int. It's as smart as a well-above average human and it's been gathering practical life experience for hundreds of years. There's no reason for the dragon to use a breath attack as an opening move against *any* single opponent, and the dragon knows this.

Now, if you could get more illusions together and present the appearance of a large attacking group instead of a solo lunatic, you might be able to bait a breath attack.

Edit: Also, invisible and/or hidden foes? Blindsense 60 feet and maxed Spot/Listen skills. The dragon can be fairly confident it will know about anybody who is trying to stay hidden, short of high level stealth-types equipped with Darkstalker.

Khanderas
2008-01-10, 03:12 AM
It's got that nifty Freezing Fog spell-like three times a day. It uses that. If whatever is attacking it is *not* a threat, the enemy is now stuck in the middle of the fog, probably also greased to the floor, and can be eaten at the dragon's leisure. That's a win for the dragon- it gets to play with its food before eating it. If it *is* a threat, the fog will force the enemy to show its hand in using an ability that can get it out of the fog or dispel it, and the dragon will be able to react appropriately. That's also a win for the dragon; it has retaken the initiative that was lost when somebody ambushed it, assuming it was successfully ambushed. White dragons are dumb, as dragons go, but the one under discussion is at 14 int. It's as smart as a well-above average human and it's been gathering practical life experience for hundreds of years. There's no reason for the dragon to use a breath attack as an opening move against *any* single opponent, and the dragon knows this.

Now, if you could get more illusions together and present the appearance of a large attacking group instead of a solo lunatic, you might be able to bait a breath attack.
Good point. More of that kind :)

Yup the fog thing does seem like a good move, enterainment value as bonus for the dragon as well. But with all the buffs to the first shots (dragonbane, several shots almost at once all that stuff) it should hurt enough to be called on as a serious threat (the dragon knows it was hit for a heckofalot of damage). A lone figure standing confidently just reeks of trap.

Illusions are cheap to get and would help alot in using a turn for a breath attack so great idea there.

Edit:

Edit: Also, invisible and/or hidden foes? Blindsense 60 feet and maxed Spot/Listen skills. The dragon can be fairly confident it will know about anybody who is trying to stay hidden, short of high level stealth-types equipped with Darkstalker.
60 feet isnt all that far away perhaps they got a team of wizards 300 feet behind the "archer" and just want the dragon to move away from his pile o' treasure so the loots wont be hit by the incoming fireballs (yes there are better spells to fight with, yes evocations lags behind, yes WOTC increased health on creatures without upping the damage on spells that do damage)

Talic
2008-01-10, 03:20 AM
Agreed, but if I was that dragon I would assume there was hidden / invisible foes in range. You and I know the monk comes for single combat. The dragon does not. Not being suspicious enough to suspect a trap would problebly have gotten that dragon killed centuries earlier, it MUST think it is a trap as its initial reaction, and charging towards the only visible target is problebly not logical.

Fallacy. Dragon would likely trust its senses until given a reason to not do so. Blindsense will trump any hide checks.
Further, if something IS foiling its blindsense, then it's not a run of the mill opponent. Randomly breathing blindly is not the way to go there.


Either the dragon think that the foe is an easy fool. -Blast him dead. Not likely though since the first hit was an aweful lot of damage.
Then the dragon must think it is a seriuos threat, and by extension it's a trap.

Not quite. Your reasoning that the dragon would not think that it's a run of the mill encounter is accurate. Thus, no Breath weapon.
However, a trap in its home lair isn't likely. More likely is a trap laid by it. Blindsense, at the very least, will note a complete absence of anything in the silenced area. The dragon will be alerted before the attack. Movement will likely be limited for the monk, due to icy conditions and forced balance checks. Further, nothing prevents the dragon from sleeping on the ceiling. It's got spider climb for ice. Even reaching the dragon will be difficult, and, even if that happens (certainly no full attack there), it can simply burrow and buff. The extremely short duration and non-renewable nature of the buffs make it hard to really take it to the dragon.

Of course, going for its treasure will likely draw it out, but how much can you really get before spells start wearing off? Likely action for the dragon would be to collapse the lair entrance if you attempted that tack.


Now, I'm not saying the dragon is forced to use a breathweapon, I'm just saying it is a fair possibility, and a favorable to the monk to boot (given saves and evasion).

I'm saying that the use of a breath weapon as a first reaction to an enemy that trumps its defenses and its senses, as well as reaching its lair, is slim. If the monk fails to do both, then the breath weapon is at a healthy range, and thus the monk isn't doing a whole lot to the dragon during that time. Thus, in a situation where the dragon would use a breath weapon on a single foe, it's no wasted action.


If I was said dragon, I would, if cornered like that, put up a wall of some kind to buy time to ascertain there was noone else there. THEN go in to smash him up but good. It should be noted that the monk dont really want the option of melee, but is prepared in that as well.

10 feet of solid ground is the wall in question. Burrowing is a powerful ability. Without blink, the monk will lose in grapple.


My main problem with this thread was just the blatant dismissal rampart in the thread on that monkbuild.
Very few "nice job, could work, perhaps the dragon could do X though"
Lots of "Nuh uh, dragon casts X, wins and you lose". Because all dragons are batman, always knows the monk got evasion and great saves, never suspects a trap (unless it IS a trap, then they always knows it's a trap).
No, it's dismissed because he fails to take into account basic dragon abilities, and doesn't have a buffer ability to keep his buffs up. He (and you) misunderstand how to run a dragon. Intelligent use of burrow, and spell like abilities is more than a recommendation when running one. Intelligent selection of spells is a need. Dragons are going to choose spells that detect, hinder, and debuff. Why? Because there is almost nothing out there that trumps their combat abilities, and any spells they could pick up for that would be less effective than its innate powers.

Thus, you can expect to see things like See Invisibility, Improved Invisibility, Blink, Glitterdust, Obscuring Mist, and the like. Why? Because they are effective, and other spells aren't.


Good point. More of that kind :)

Yup the fog thing does seem like a good move, enterainment value as bonus for the dragon as well. But with all the buffs to the first shots (dragonbane, several shots almost at once all that stuff) it should hurt enough to be called on as a serious threat (the dragon knows it was hit for a heckofalot of damage). A lone figure standing confidently just reeks of trap.

Point. Solid fog also stops range attacks though, so it's still effective. Though why is it a high damage 1st round? If the monk gets a surprise round, and wins initiative, here are the rolls needed for each attack:
Surprise round - 14 or better
Main round 14, 14, 19, 20.
There's actually about a 23.5% chance of missing every single attack. For each that hits, there's an average of 23 damage. On average, 2 should hit. 46 or so damage is good, but hardly an imminent threat.


Illusions are cheap to get and would help alot in using a turn for a breath attack so great idea there.
Illusions that fool blindsense aren't weak or cheap. They've got to create light, sound, heat, smell, vibrations in the ground... In other words, it'd be easier to use Summon Monster type abilities to draw a cone of pain-flavored Slurpee.

Khanderas
2008-01-10, 04:32 AM
Blindsense is indeed great and foils much. Within 60 feet. Illusions that stand behind the monk and more then 60 feet away from the dragon would work, to create the appearance of an army (where a breath attack would be useful opener to take out decoys and mooks).

Same thing extends to the ambush setup. I still maintain that if you teleport in, your friends can too and behind you (away from dragon blindsense).

Blindsense does nothing when all you do is change your appearance. Make him look like a well armored Fighter. Lessens the attraction of melee, and ups the attraction to breathe or use magic. If you want a "tank" for the dragon, send first in a Fighter to keep the dragon busy in melee while Casters and Flankers close ranks.
That is the logic choice, coming alone is stupid. If you do come alone (and for this challenge you are) anyone in the dragons paw would suspect a trap of some kind. Call Fallacy all you want, I'm not budging that the dragon would suspect he might be pulled into a trap when faced with a lone archer.

As for burrowing and solid fog, I cede those point, abilities the dragon has and would be very efficient to use and there is little the monk can do vs the burrowing as it is now. The fog should be easy to Abundant Step out of, though then it will be the dragons turn.

As for trapped lairs. Naturally his lair should be trapped with all kinds of nasty stuff. But we cannot assume that the monk teleports onto one. He might be tricked to move into one if the battle becomes mobile however.

Talic
2008-01-10, 04:51 AM
Blindsense is indeed great and foils much. Within 60 feet. Illusions that stand behind the monk and more then 60 feet away from the dragon would work, to create the appearance of an army (where a breath attack would be useful opener to take out decoys and mooks).

At distances over 30 feet, the amount of damage the monk can do is so limited that the breath weapon is one wasted dragon action in exchange for a wasted monk action.


Same thing extends to the ambush setup. I still maintain that if you teleport in, your friends can too and behind you (away from dragon blindsense).

Likely, groups teleport together, to save a multi-round entry. True. Again, at range, the monk's attack is simply not effective, and all that will happen is that they trade a wasted action, and the monk loses the surprise advantage.


Blindsense does nothing when all you do is change your appearance. Make him look like a well armored Fighter. Lessens the attraction of melee, and ups the attraction to breathe or use magic. If you want a "tank" for the dragon, send first in a Fighter to keep the dragon busy in melee while Casters and Flankers close ranks.

Hardly. The attraction of melee is that it deals large damage, which is key for taking out high HP tanks. Breath weapons won't do much to such tanks. It's more likely to drop a solid fog and do a flyby above it to get good coverage with blindsense,


That is the logic choice, coming alone is stupid. If you do come alone (and for this challenge you are) anyone in the dragons paw would suspect a trap of some kind. Call Fallacy all you want, I'm not budging that the dragon would suspect he might be pulled into a trap when faced with a lone archer.

One does not suspect a trap. Perhaps an ambush, but that's a totally different thing. I call fallacy, because you make an effor in judgement. While it's prudent for the dragon to act under the assumption that he doesn't have all the information here, it's not an instant conclusion to assume that there's an army of mid-high level wizards sitting 61 feet away with fireballs.


As for burrowing and solid fog, I cede those point, abilities the dragon has and would be very efficient to use and there is little the monk can do vs the burrowing as it is now. The fog should be easy to Abundant Step out of, though then it will be the dragons turn.

Solid fog is 3x per day. How many abundant steps does the monk get?


As for trapped lairs. Naturally his lair should be trapped with all kinds of nasty stuff. But we cannot assume that the monk teleports onto one. He might be tricked to move into one if the battle becomes mobile however.
No, we cannot. However, the point is, if there are any traps in effect, they are set up in the dragon's lair, by the dragon. Portable traps is not a concept that exists currently in D&D.

mostlyharmful
2008-01-10, 06:51 AM
A monk that tries to use expendable magic items against an ancient dragon has to close it down quickly. If it's still standing/reacting in the second round you're essentially screwed. You're standing on it's home turf which it has turned into a death trap, with it's battlefield control abilites (spell-like, Iceclimb, etc..) combined with its buffing spells (any dragon that doens't pick up blood wind and scintillating scales if they have acess to the SpellComp, and Improved Invis always just isn't worth talking about) it'll make mincemeat out of any noncaster. The monks got to sneak up to it while it's asleep and end the encounter before it begins or they're toast (or maybe a popsicle:smallsmile: ), arrows and trying to stay out of close combat ends in a red smear on the wall of the cave.

And the dragon will be in a reasonably confined space given we've surprised it in its lair, there won't be any lines of sight more than a couple hundred feet away from it before you turn a corner of a tunnel going outside, a dragons listen score will be enough for it to be reasonably sure that there isn't anyone else in the cave but the monk, at least no-one without a maxed out move silently check which rules out full casters. So while there may be twenty rogues waiting just outside it's blindsense they'd also be outside sneak attack range and have blown their best shot at sneak attack when it woke up. The dragon can be sure within a round (maybe two dependant on the DM) that the monk is alone and a listen check should provide it with information on the monks appearance as a fighter being false (armour creaks/jingles/tings off itself).

Eldritch_Ent
2008-01-10, 09:53 AM
Haven't read the thread, just the original post, but here's what I think-


The problem with this challenge is, well, trying to solo an Ancient White Wyrm as a monk is like running up to a dragon and trying to beat it to death with your bare hands... In fact, it's pretty much exactly that!

Flurry Attack won't help you, as it's a full attack... And full attacking a dragon means a dead monk, most likely.

A monk can abundant step 1/day... A white dragon can Solid Fog 3/day...

An Ancient dragon has an AC of 37, and an attack bonus of 39... It's hard to imagine a monk being able to beat one of those reliably, let alone both of those, given they can't wear armor, and have a BAB of 15 at best.

I'd say the monk's best bet is to run away and find a Wizard, Cleric, and Fighter to do it for him...

Airenus
2008-01-10, 03:33 PM
DMG has WBL guidelines. Cloak of Resistance +5 is pretty much a must, as it's dual purpose on the dragon. Ring of Free action fits, and protects against any attempt to stop the monk. Ring of Invisibility, perhaps, to grant at least a 50% concealment, when maneuvering between attacks? Perhaps something that doesn't dismiss itself every attack.

Vow of poverty wouldn't be too out of line, though your WBL goes to 0.

I wouldn't go too heavy into cold resistance, as the dragon's breath weapon isn't likely to be used (inefficient against single enemies compared to attacks, likely to save for 0 damage anyway, and 50% even if he doesn't).

As far as AoO goes, either Tumble (monk skill) or Spring Attack would work well.

Are incarnum based prestiges allowed ? because a monk with a incarnum prestige and vow of poverty could durely do the job

Sir Giacomo
2008-01-10, 06:57 PM
Hi again everyone,

only little time, so I keep it short for now:
Thanks a lot for your comments (in particular the positive ones, in particular @Khanderas!)

@Mojotech - read the build(s), then comment, pls.

@MostlyHarmful: yes you're correct in that the monk better gets the fight finished in 2-3 rounds; beyond that the many defenses and offenses of the dragon are too unfathomable to risk your life on as a lvl 15 character vs a ECL 18.

Overall, some remarks on what I read here and there:
- the dragon will not get AoO from monk movement since the monk has tumble.
- the dragon will not blindsense a monk approaching, since the monk uses the surprise round to do a partial charge outside the 60ft (other classes have to use haste/fly combo to achieve that).
- solid fog is overcome with 1-2 rounds of blinking, but it does not matter in the above build scenario, since the dragon likely has only one action to decide on before it bites the dust - and that action may well be the wrong one. Once the monk is close to the dragon (as in: initiative won, full attack close) the dragon cannot cast solid fog between it and the monk (does not help), and if it moves away first, it cannot do so without provoking two AoOs. (moving outside the first 5ft of reach, then the second 5ft, remember the combat reflexes monk bonus feat and his large size).
- with all the damage likely done by the monk, it must not be forgotten that there will be a stunning fist, quivering palm and likely massive damage shock save in the surprise round (3 total), and then another stunning fist fort save plus some massive shock saves in the initiative round. The dragon likely saves on anything but a "1", but it may still happen on the 5th or 6th roll...
- the big weakness of the build is to wonder whether the monk will be able to find the dragon at all - it does have know arcane and spot as class skills which help, but is still questionable if the monk is able to get within 110ft partial charge range with his buffs all still active before the dragon or his defenses (minions were ruled out by Talic in the beginning) and traps stop the monk. (a bit cheesy vs alarm spells would be for the monk to simply add a dozen or more detect magic level 0 spells into the ring of spell storing :smallsmile: )

- Giacomo

Edit/PS @Talic: in a different thread I'm discussing with Lord Silvanos whether monk unarmed damage also applies to gauntlets or not. I would argue it does - since the gauntlet description says it is like an unarmed attack except for doing lethal instead of non-lethal damage. That also makes intuitive sense to me. So the build above is perfectly legal and core (reduced by your additional requirements)
If you are still not convinced, it is fairly easy to achieve the same results with another ring of spell storing and a holy sword spell inside (that is DEFINITELY allowed to use on the monk's hands), as for the lvl 20 build. The 18,000 more gold would then be deducted from some other non-key items.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-10, 07:07 PM
Edit/PS @Talic: in a different thread I'm discussing with Lord Silvanos whether monk unarmed damage also applies to gauntlets or not.

I hope you know that we are not discussing that.
Monks deal Unarmed Strike damage with gauntlets, but they cannot be used in a FoB and the Monk is not proficient with gauntlets.

calebcom
2008-01-10, 07:27 PM
I remember seeing in the rokugan book something about allowing monks to take "tattooed monk" tattoos as feats.

If you spent all your extra feats on those, and took the prestige class, you'd have somewhere in the neighborhood of 12 tattoos, and being as most of those tattoo powers are "blah blah number of tattoos you have" that'd make a nice little boost.

Just a thought.

Wordmiser
2008-01-11, 12:27 AM
So Vow of Poverty is "go"?


Old Strongheart Halfling Monk 20

Str:6
Dex:15:13+2
Con:18:12+6
Int:15:13+2
Wis:34:15+5+8+4+2
Cha:16:10+4+2

Feats:
1:Darkstalker
R:Sacred Vow
Flaw:Ability Focus--Stunning Fist
3:Sanctify Ki Strike
6:Martial Study--Cloak of Deception
[7:Size Matters Not]
9:Words of Creation
12:Martial Stance--Assassin's Stance
15:Ascetic Rogue
18:Vow of Poverty
18:Intuitive Strike
20:Fist of the Heavens

Stunning Fist DC:
10+10 (1/2 Hit Dice)+2 (Ascetic Rogue)+2 (Fist of the Heavens)+12 (Wisdom)+4 (Size Matters Not)+4 (Words of Creation)+(Ability Focus)=44

Dragon Fortitude on a roll of 19=42

Skills:
Diplomacy:23 ranks
Hide:23 ranks
Listen:23 ranks
Move Silently:23 ranks
Spot:23 ranks

Base Attack: +15
Flurry: +13/+13/+8/+3

Equipment:
215,000gp
Draconic Buffeting Wings Graft (100,000gp)
Manual of Wisdom +4 (110,000gp)
Talking Friendly Wizard into helping While Researching Dragon's True Name (15,000 gp)


...Eh. I don't care enough to finish this, to sneak out the flaw, or to tighten up the implausibilities (He had an item of +4 Charisma for a little while, okay? He had to give something up for Vow of Poverty to work, right? Right?). Stupid Stunning Fist Weasel-Up-ing.


Golly Gee! My Monk could surely Kill a Dargon! Monks and Vow of Poverty sure are the "Win-zors."

Talic
2008-01-11, 02:04 AM
I hope you know that we are not discussing that.
Monks deal Unarmed Strike damage with gauntlets, but they cannot be used in a FoB and the Monk is not proficient with gauntlets.

Cite source for dealing unarmed strike damage with gauntlets, as Gauntlets have a specific damage listing on the weapon tables of the 3.5 PHb.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-01-11, 02:06 AM
Cite source for dealing unarmed strike damage with gauntlets, as Gauntlets have a specific damage listing on the weapon tables of the 3.5 PHb.

The text of the gauntlet. Text Trumps Table.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-11, 03:56 AM
The only thing the gauntlet weapon does is to turn your unarmed strike damage from nonlethal to lethal.


Gauntlet: This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes

Unfortunately the monk is not proficient and since the gauntlet is not a special monk weapon it cannot be used in a FoB.

Allowing it would make a very reasonable house rule though.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-01-11, 04:21 AM
Wait a minute!

If the monk is doing unarmed damage because he's attacking with his unarmed strike, not the gauntlet (which doesn't do damage on its own), then why would magical enhancements on the *gauntlet*, which he isn't attacking with, apply to the Unarmed Strike?

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-11, 05:13 AM
Wait a minute!

If the monk is doing unarmed damage because he's attacking with his unarmed strike, not the gauntlet (which doesn't do damage on its own), then why would magical enhancements on the *gauntlet*, which he isn't attacking with, apply to the Unarmed Strike?

He is still attacking with it, damage is just determined by other factors than the weapon itself, namely how much damage you would deal with an unarmed strike.

Talic
2008-01-11, 06:34 AM
He is still attacking with it, damage is just determined by other factors than the weapon itself, namely how much damage you would deal with an unarmed strike.

So you get a +1 to hit with gauntlets if you have weapon focus (unarmed strike)? After all, you are performing an unarmed strike. If a gauntlet modifies unarmed strikes, and that's all it does, then there should be no need for a proficiency or a focus in it. He's technically using an unarmed strike.

That is the logical extension of the "text trumps table" arguement. The text states that you are using an unarmed strike, after all.

Most entries with variable damage based on special modifiers include the possibility for that in their table entries.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-11, 06:57 AM
If a gauntlet modifies unarmed strikes, and that's all it does, then there should be no need for a proficiency or a focus in it. He's technically using an unarmed strike.

It is still listed as a weapon, which have a set of requirements. You could say that he is using this weapon to deliver his unarmed strike changing it from nonlethal to lethal damage in the process.
He is, however, still using the gauntlet.

Talic
2008-01-11, 07:06 AM
It is still listed as a weapon, which have a set of requirements. You could say that he is using this weapon to deliver his unarmed strike changing it from nonlethal to lethal damage in the process.
He is, however, still using the gauntlet.



Gauntlet: This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes


By the literal interpretation of this line, you are not using the gauntlet. You are using an unarmed strike, the gauntlet just adds an option for lethal damage. Thus, by that interpretation of the Rules as Written, the following should be inferred:

Enhancement bonuses and weapon enhancements on the gauntlets should not modify the attack.
All proficiencies should be taken from the unarmed strike category, as that is the attack method used.

After all, if you have an ability that allows you to do additional damage with a grapple attack, it only works when you declare a grapple attack, right?
And if you have an ability that allows you to deal damage with a touch attack, it only works when you make a touch attack, right?
So why is it that you say that when you have an item which gives you the ability to change a damage type with an unarmed strike, you're kinda making an unarmed strike but not really? Either you get the damage, and it IS an unarmed strike, or you don't get the damage, and it's not.

Which is it, Mr. Silvanas? Which is it?

Rachel Lorelei
2008-01-11, 07:33 AM
He is still attacking with it, damage is just determined by other factors than the weapon itself, namely how much damage you would deal with an unarmed strike.

No, he's not. He's attacking with an unarmed strike, which attacks with gauntlets are considered to be.

Talic
2008-01-11, 07:40 AM
No, he's not. He's attacking with an unarmed strike, which attacks with gauntlets are considered to be.

Then if they are considered to be unarmed strikes, they go by the Weapon Proficiency: Unarmed Strike.

Soulknife's weapons aren't actually shortswords and longswords. But they can use the shortsword and longsword feats (as well as mindblade), because they are considered to be.

If it said that it was considered to be an unarmed strike for damage, I'd see your point. But it doesn't. If it is just "considered to be" an unarmed strike, then all things which modify unarmed strikes, which include damage AND feats, should modify it. If it's not, then fine. But you can't have it both ways. Either it IS considered to be, or it's not.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-11, 08:04 AM
By the literal interpretation of this line, you are not using the gauntlet.

You are not using the gauntlet you say? What is that metal glove you are wearing on your hand then? :smallamused:


You are using an unarmed strike, the gauntlet just adds an option for lethal damage.


It is not an option. Since you are using the gauntlet you are dealing lethal damage by default.



Thus, by that interpretation of the Rules as Written, the following should be inferred:

Enhancement bonuses and weapon enhancements on the gauntlets should not modify the attack.
All proficiencies should be taken from the unarmed strike category, as that is the attack method used.



By the RAW such an interpretation has some problems. First of all, proficiency with unarmed strikes is not really treated in detail and such a kind of proficiency may not even exist. I am fairly certain that the monk would have been given it if it did.
Gauntlets are listed as weapons both in the equipment section and also in the section for magic items where you can enhance them etc. or make masterwork versions.


After all, if you have an ability that allows you to do additional damage with a grapple attack, it only works when you declare a grapple attack, right?
And if you have an ability that allows you to deal damage with a touch attack, it only works when you make a touch attack, right?
So why is it that you say that when you have an item which gives you the ability to change a damage type with an unarmed strike, you're kinda making an unarmed strike but not really? Either you get the damage, and it IS an unarmed strike, or you don't get the damage, and it's not.


It is not something I made up. It is hardly my fault that this area of the rules is treated in this way.
You are using a gauntlet and you are dealing the same damage as you would with your unarmed strike.
The attack is, however, not considered an unarmed strike. If that was the case the description would have to say so.


Which is it, Mr. Silvanas? Which is it?

It is either Lord Silvanos, Silvanos, Popcorn Tyrant, Eye Tyrant or similar, nor Mr.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-11, 08:14 AM
No, he's not. He's attacking with an unarmed strike, which attacks with gauntlets are considered to be.

He is not attacking with the gauntlet you say?

But is the gauntlet not a simple weapon? Yet you say it cannot be used for attacking?

Nowhere does it say that an attack with a gauntlet is considered to be an unarmed strike.

new1965
2008-01-11, 08:41 AM
He is not attacking with the gauntlet you say?

But is the gauntlet not a simple weapon? Yet you say it cannot be used for attacking?

Nowhere does it say that an attack with a gauntlet is considered to be an unarmed strike.

Its one of those MINOR differences in wording that gets overlooked (and im guilty of it as well)

A gauntlet is considered and unarmed attack in the PHB and not an unarmed strike(which also includes kicks knees, head butts, etc...). I argued the point to0 until it was pointed out in the D&D 3.5 FAQ (20-21) and i just bowed to the fact that it was the rule (even if it didn't really make sense to me)

Charity
2008-01-11, 09:07 AM
Its one of those MINOR differences in wording that gets overlooked (and im guilty of it as well)


you just lack the requisit number of eyes.

Sir Giacomo
2008-01-12, 10:29 AM
Posted something similar in the "monk fix" thread above.

Rachel Lorelei and Talic are correct imo.

the first sentence of the gauntlet description says "...you deal lethal damage...(....)... with unarmed strikes". So in this description the wording of "unarmed strike" and "unarmed attack" (used in the second sentence) appears to be used synonymously.
No need to go to lengths to say that the monk needs to take the simple weapon proficiency feat to use a gauntlet.

So this is how the rules consider unarmed attacks:
1) everyone is proficient in unarmed attack/unarmed strike. However, you only deal non-lethal damage and trigger AoO vs armed foes.
2) the gauntlet allows you to deal lethal damage (without being a monk and/or have the improved unarmed strike feat), but ONLY lethal damage, and you are still considered unarmed (so you still triger an AoO vs armed foes)
3) the monk or everyone who has improved unarmed strike has both: ability to CHOOSE to do lethal damage and avoid AoO vs armed foes.
If a monk uses a gauntlet, it gives him no additional advantage, but he can enhance it (or may opt for a magic gauntlet with all the usual stuff) and all his other unarmed strike gadgets (including ki stuff) apply.

- Giacomo

PS: anything else on the monk lvl 15 vs ancient white issue?:smallsmile:

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-12, 10:48 AM
Posted something similar in the "monk fix" thread above.

It is interesting how you ignore arguments and then just keep posting the same arguments over and over again.


the first sentence of the gauntlet description says "...you deal lethal damage...(....)... with unarmed strikes". So in this description the wording of "unarmed strike" and "unarmed attack" (used in the second sentence) appears to be used synonymously.
No need to go to lengths to say that the monk needs to take the simple weapon proficiency feat to use a gauntlet.


In that case appearances can be deceiving.
An Unarmed Strike is a kind of Unarmed attack just like a Light Mace is a kind of light weapon.
If they meant for your gauntlet attacks to be considered Unarmed Strikes they would say so.
Instead they choose to tell you that you are still making an unarmed attack even weapon your are using a gauntlet as a weapon.


3) the monk or everyone who has improved unarmed strike has both: ability to CHOOSE to do lethal damage and avoid AoO vs armed foes.
If a monk uses a gauntlet, it gives him no additional advantage, but he can enhance it (or may opt for a magic gauntlet with all the usual stuff) and all his other unarmed strike gadgets (including ki stuff) apply.


It is not a choice, dealing lethal damage is the default use of the gauntlet. If you want to deal non-lethal you have to take the penalty.
A gauntlet can be enhanced and the Monk uses his Unarmed Strike damage, but since a gauntlet is not a special monk weapon it cannot be used in a FoB.

Signmaker
2008-01-12, 01:00 PM
[QUOTE=Lord_Silvanos;3780866]Gauntlet/Monk disscussion[QUOTE]

You know, it'd be a whole lot easier if The Wizards on the Coastline just made enchantable gloves that could be kata'd with. (Still requiring SWP debatable)

Simplification for the stress-relief.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-12, 01:06 PM
Gauntlet/Monk disscussion

You know, it'd be a whole lot easier if The Wizards on the Coastline just made enchantable gloves that could be kata'd with. (Still requiring SWP debatable)

Simplification for the stress-relief.

Indeed.

And make it gloves, so that the poor monk won't have to worry about proficiency.

Ne0
2008-01-12, 01:09 PM
I blame the lack of supplements with monk material. :smallannoyed:

horseboy
2008-01-16, 05:53 AM
Is there a feat that allows monk levels to stack towards sneak attack?

Talic
2008-01-16, 06:22 AM
Au Contrair. The SRD entry for Gauntlets SPECIFICALLY states that it allows you you deal lethal damage with unarmed strikes. Thus, in order to use the gauntlet's TEXT (which trumps the table entry for Simple Weapon), you must make an unarmed strike.

Thus, when you are using a gauntlet, you are making an unarmed strike.

Since no character, from the humble wizard to the exalted fighter, ever takes a -4 non-proficiency penalty for attacking with an unarmed strike, it can be reasonably inferred that no character is non-proficient with the unarmed strike.

Since no character is non-proficient with unarmed strikes, and attacks with gauntlets are unarmed strikes, it follows that all characters can use gauntlets without a non-proficiency penalty.


It is interesting how you ignore arguments and then just keep posting the same arguments over and over again.

I read arguements. I refute them as being irrelevant to the inescapable point that is the fact of the matter, the simple logical progression above, which completely invalidates EVERYTHING you've posted on this. Giacomo's arguement, for once, is sound.



In that case appearances can be deceiving.
An Unarmed Strike is a kind of Unarmed attack just like a Light Mace is a kind of light weapon.

Correct, and SRD allows you to "Gauntlet: This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes". Unarmed Strikes are specific attacks within the category of unarmed attacks, much as an attack with a light mace is a specific attack with a light weapon. Whether you're tripping, disarming, sundering, or whacking, it's all covered. Unarmed Strike is like Slam, or Claw. It is a SPECIFIC ATTACK. All attacks with unarmed strikes use the rules for them. If it were not so, it would be listed. But it doesn't. All it says is that you can deal lethal damage with unarmed strikes if you are wearing gauntlets. That's it. Adding more to it may be fine homebrew, but it is NOT RAW.


If they meant for your gauntlet attacks to be considered Unarmed Strikes they would say so.

Then how would you interpret "lets you deal lethal damage with unarmed strikes." ??? I see that as, "you make unarmed strikes, and these unarmed strikes deal lethal damage if they hit."


Instead they choose to tell you that you are still making an unarmed attack even weapon your are using a gauntlet as a weapon.

Close, you are making an unarmed STRIKE. Now, tell me, by the rules of making an unarmed attack, does any character in all of D&D, by RAW, take a -4 non-proficiency penalty for making an unarmed strike?


It is not a choice, dealing lethal damage is the default use of the gauntlet. If you want to deal non-lethal you have to take the penalty.

Odd, by the text, it states that it allows you to deal lethal damage. It does not say it requires you. For example, could a monk or other player wearing gauntlets not attack with a knee, or an elbow? It would still be an unarmed strike, correct? You follow the simple fallacy that most who are not conversant with unarmed strikes follow. Unarmed Strike does not equal Punch.


A gauntlet can be enhanced and the Monk uses his Unarmed Strike damage, but since a gauntlet is not a special monk weapon it cannot be used in a FoB.
Can monks make unarmed strikes without penalty? Yes? Then monks can use gauntlets. You say that there is no mention of a weapon proficiency with unarmed strike. Show me weapon proficiency (gauntlet), specifically listed in the book. Sure, it's listed as a simple weapon, and could fall under simple weapon proficiency. Then again, the text SPECIFICALLY trumps that, by stating that it deals lethal damage with an unarmed strike.

Unarmed Strike is listed as a specific attack form in NPC entries. Just like Short Sword, Long Bow, and the like. It is a specific form of attack with a light weapon, normally made with natural weapons. The text of the gauntlet specifically bypasses the natural weapon part, and gives the monk an ability he already has with an attack he already uses. The text states that monks may flurry with unarmed strikes. Thus, monks may flurry with gauntlets. You can obfuscate the simple points made above all you like, but, when all is said and done, the SRD entry still states that characters wearing gauntlets are allowed to deal lethal damage with Unarmed Strikes. Nothing you can say or do will change the simple truth of those words.

Kurald Galain
2008-01-16, 07:26 AM
Au Contrair. The SRD entry for Gauntlets SPECIFICALLY states that it allows you you deal lethal damage with unarmed strikes. Thus, in order to use the gauntlet's TEXT (which trumps the table entry for Simple Weapon), you must make an unarmed strike.

Well, then it follows that, like the fighter gets an enchanted flaming sword, the monk now needs an enchanted flaming unarmed strike, since that's what he's attacking with. So in the end your reasoning circles back to the same problem.

Of course, that's precisely what the Amulet of Mighty Fists is for, but note that it is a lot more expensive, and has a lot less options, than an enchantable sword.

McMindflayer
2008-01-16, 07:28 AM
Are Dragon Magazine's Available for the Challenge that everyone has forgotten about? I have the compendium and have a class or two from it that would benifit the monk build I want to make for this thing.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-16, 07:56 AM
I read arguements. I refute them as being irrelevant to the inescapable point that is the fact of the matter, the simple logical progression above, which completely invalidates EVERYTHING you've posted on this. Giacomo's arguement, for once, is sound.

Well, I wrote that in response to Giacomo, so unless you have two accounts, that was not directed at you.
Your "progression" ignores certain arguments and makes assumptions that allows you to reach your conclusion.
My interpretation does not ignore your points and does not assume that the RAW is wrong before I can reach a conclusion that also happens to be supported by the FAQ.



Correct, and SRD allows you to "Gauntlet: This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes". Unarmed Strikes are specific attacks within the category of unarmed attacks, much as an attack with a light mace is a specific attack with a light weapon. Whether you're tripping, disarming, sundering, or whacking, it's all covered. Unarmed Strike is like Slam, or Claw. It is a SPECIFIC ATTACK. All attacks with unarmed strikes use the rules for them. If it were not so, it would be listed. But it doesn't. All it says is that you can deal lethal damage with unarmed strikes if you are wearing gauntlets. That's it. Adding more to it may be fine homebrew, but it is NOT RAW.

I am not sure what you are trying to say here.
The point is, however, that the Gauntlet description tells us that even though it deals lethal damage it is still considered an unarmed attack and you suffer the same consequences as if you were trying to make an Unarmed Strike, namely to provoke an AoO without the right feat etc.
The point about the light mace was to say that the text refers to a weapon group, they are not using Unarmed Strikes and Unarmed Attacks synonymously.


Then how would you interpret "lets you deal lethal damage with unarmed strikes." ??? I see that as, "you make unarmed strikes, and these unarmed strikes deal lethal damage if they hit."


Again you are responding to my quote out of context. I was referring to the second sentence of the description and you are treating it like I am responding to the first.


Close, you are making an unarmed STRIKE. Now, tell me, by the rules of making an unarmed attack, does any character in all of D&D, by RAW, take a -4 non-proficiency penalty for making an unarmed strike?


No, the monk at least does not take a -4 penalty for making an Unarmed Strike. So either Unarmed Strike was never intended to be a proficiency as you claim or it is an omission as others claim.
In any case, it is irrelevant for the current argument.

The point is that the gauntlet is a weapon that allows you to deal lethal damage with your unarmed strikes.

Weapons require proficiency if you want to use them without penalty, even simple weapons like the gauntlet.


Odd, by the text, it states that it allows you to deal lethal damage. It does not say it requires you. For example, could a monk or other player wearing gauntlets not attack with a knee, or an elbow? It would still be an unarmed strike, correct? You follow the simple fallacy that most who are not conversant with unarmed strikes follow. Unarmed Strike does not equal Punch.


Obviously I was referring to an attack with a fist actually wearing a gauntlet, hence the explicit mention of the gauntlet in the quote. I thought the whole point of this was to attack with magically enhanced gauntlets? Instead of talking about how you would attack with the dagger hidden in your boot.


Can monks make unarmed strikes without penalty? Yes?

Yes.


Then monks can use gauntlets.

I have never claimed they could not.


You say that there is no mention of a weapon proficiency with unarmed strike. Show me weapon proficiency (gauntlet), specifically listed in the book. Sure, it's listed as a simple weapon, and could fall under simple weapon proficiency. Then again, the text SPECIFICALLY trumps that, by stating that it deals lethal damage with an unarmed strike.


Yes, why go with the logic and inconsistent interpretation that a simple weapon like the gauntlet would actually require simple weapon proficiency?
Instead we assume that it is not a weapon and the text calling it a weapon must be in error, even though it is listed as a weapon several other places?


Unarmed Strike is listed as a specific attack form in NPC entries. Just like Short Sword, Long Bow, and the like. It is a specific form of attack with a light weapon, normally made with natural weapons. The text of the gauntlet specifically bypasses the natural weapon part, and gives the monk an ability he already has with an attack he already uses. The text states that monks may flurry with unarmed strikes. Thus, monks may flurry with gauntlets. You can obfuscate the simple points made above all you like, but, when all is said and done, the SRD entry still states that characters wearing gauntlets are allowed to deal lethal damage with Unarmed Strikes. Nothing you can say or do will change the simple truth of those words.


You have yet to show that the gauntlet is not a specific manufactured weapon and therefore does not require proficiency.
Alternatively you can show that an attack with a gauntlet is considered an Unarmed Strike.

Until you can do that you don't have a case.

The fact that you deal lethal damage with your Unarmed Strikes when using your fists is not enough, since you are also still using the gauntlet as part of the attack.






Is the main function of the gauntlet the ability to turn Unarmed Strike damage from non-lethal to lethal?

Yes.

Is my monk not proficient with gauntlets then?

No, because the Gauntlet is clearly listed as a weapon and weapons require proficiency if you want to use them without penalty. (The monk does not have Simple weapon Proficiency (Gauntlet))

Could my monk not use the Gauntlet as part of a FoB attack at least?

No, because a FoB has to be made with either Unarmed Strikes or special monk weapons and the Gauntlet is neither.

lord_khaine
2008-01-16, 09:14 AM
No, because a FoB has to be made with either Unarmed Strikes or special monk weapons and the Gauntlet is neither.

this is unfortunately true, apperently they have changet that part of the faq that said you could make a flurry with a gauntlet, those bastards!

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-16, 10:00 AM
this is unfortunately true, apperently they have changet that part of the faq that said you could make a flurry with a gauntlet, those bastards!

Yes, the FAQ is at least consistent now (if not overly precise), although the proficiency was still an issue in the question to which you refer.

I think they should have included weapon enhanced gloves or cloth wraps at a non-increased price. The fact that they did not does not prevent a reasonable group to house rule their existence.

Kurald Galain
2008-01-16, 11:51 AM
I think they should have included weapon enhanced gloves or cloth wraps at a non-increased price. The fact that they did not does not prevent a reasonable group to house rule their existence.

Except that, as we all know, Core D&D is perfectly balanced as written, and even the most minor houserulings or changes to that will detrimentally upset this delicate balance.

Reel On, Love
2008-01-16, 12:05 PM
Except that, as we all know, Core D&D is perfectly balanced as written, and even the most minor houserulings or changes to that will detrimentally upset this delicate balance.

This must be the Counter-D&D that originated with NullAshton.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-16, 12:10 PM
Except that, as we all know, Core D&D is perfectly balanced as written, and even the most minor houserulings or changes to that will detrimentally upset this delicate balance.

Weak sarcasm. I was expecting something along the lines of the monk being overpowered and that this would break the multiverse.

horseboy
2008-01-16, 03:01 PM
Alright, a bout of insomnia last night had me playing around with Heroforge. Now I don't have, well any of the books other than PHB and DMG, so there's a good chance some of this is off. It's also ECL 20, but it's more heavy on the monk than most stuff.

Name: Bruce Leeroy Alignment: Lawful Good Race: Catfolk Monk 16 Rogue 3
STR: 13, Dex: 18, Con: 12, Int: 13 (12+1lvl), Wis: 18 (15+3 lvl), Cha: 15 32 pt buy
HP: 113, AC: 37, Touch: 24, Flat footed: 33 Move:90'x4 DR: 5/magic 10/evil SR: 26 Init:+4, Fort +15, Will: +18, Reflex: +20

Languages: Common, Sylvan, Feline

Unarmed Strike Primary: +22/+17/+12
Unarmed Strike Secondary: +17/+12/+7

Skills: Balance: +11, Climb +10, Concentration +10, Decipher Script +3, Diplomacy +12, Disable Device +20, Escape Artist +6, Heal+5, Hide +14, Jump +34, Listen +14, Move Silent +20, Open Lock +13, Sense Motive +11, Spellcraft +2, Swim +2, Tumble +20

Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, 2wf, I2wf, Fiery Fist, Fiery Ki Defense, Axiomatic Strike, Deft Strike, Catfolk Pounce, Exalted Spell Defense, Gift of Faith, Intuitive Attack, Nymph's Kiss, Sacred Strike, Sacred Vow, Vow of Obedience, Vow of Poverty, Sanctify Ki Strike, Holy Ki Strike, Sanctify Natural Strike
Now there's one ability that it didn't take actually factor it, the "Ability Score Enhancement" so I'm not sure how many of what I've got to work with on that. Here's how I'm seeing it work, stop me when I'm wrong.

The crux is the dragon has to be flat-footed.

BAB gives 3 attacks, flurry give +2, I2wf gives +2 more for a total of 7 attacks. Catfolk pounce allows you to make a full attack after charging a flat-footed target. So I get all 7 attacks. Deft Strike means I'm basically doing touch attacks vs the dragon. That means all 7 attacks will hit.

Now, I'm going with max damage on rolls first
Sneak Attack damage 2d8 (Sacred Strike+1 dice size)x7=112
Holy strike 2d6x7 =84
Axiomatic 2d6x7 =84
Str and "enchant" bonus 5x7 =35
Strikes themselves 2d8x7 =112
Fiery Fists 2d6x7 =84
Sanctified Normal Strike 1x7 (These probably don't ) =7
Sanctified Ki Strike 1x7 (stack but I don't know) =7
Total max damage in a round: =525
That's 3 points more than the listed one. So it's possible, but not probable.
Average damage in a round: 357 Impressive, but not good enough. I misread Aesthetic Rogue and thought it added monk to sneak attack progression. Average then was around 570. So if anyone knows of a feat that does that, let me know and that would actually mean it would work.

Signmaker
2008-01-16, 04:18 PM
Alright, a bout of insomnia last night had me playing around with Heroforge. Now I don't have, well any of the books other than PHB and DMG, so there's a good chance some of this is off. It's also ECL 20, but it's more heavy on the monk than most stuff.

You've got rogue levels. =/

Emperor Tippy
2008-01-16, 04:25 PM
My contribution to this thread.

Buy 5 Advanced Shadesteel Golems and a Ring of Invisibility. Blow the rest of your funds on defensive items.

Order your golems to take out the dragon. Wait.

You win.

I think I even kept within all of the OP's constraints. 20 levels of monk, no UMD cheese, no more than 25% of my WBL on any single item.

horseboy
2008-01-16, 05:00 PM
You've got rogue levels. =/
Just three, I needed sneak attack for deft strike.

Chronos
2008-01-16, 08:04 PM
I'm not up to putting together a full build, but a few things to note:

First, Stunning Fist is usable only once per round, barring some non-core feat to change that. So Sir Giacomo's monk, at least, is not using a Stunning Fist on every attack, and Flurry and related tactics don't do too much good if you're building around Stunning Fist.

Second, the monk can probably beat the dragon at the stealth game. The dragon has a +25 Hide, which the monk can probably beat with 23 ranks of Spot and a high Wisdom (which the monk probably wants, anyway), while the dragon's Spot and Listen are around +37, which the monk can beat with some effort (23 ranks, dex boosters, racial and/or size bonuses, masterwork tools, the Stealthy feat, elixirs...).

The monk's tactics should probably include moving five feet at a time, then taking 20 on Spot checks to hopefully find the dragon from outside Blindsense range (range penalties apply for both spotting each other), then buffing up while still hidden. The dragon's lair might have enough twisty passages (all alike) that there are no clear lines of sight beyond blindsense range, though, in which case Darkstalker is a must. Note also that the stealth arms race is probably going to use up all of the monk's skill points, or close to it, so any plan relying on both stealth and some other skill(s) is going to require some Intelligence.

Theli
2008-01-16, 08:08 PM
One minor point:

Wouldn't taking 20 on spot checks take about 10 rounds barring some other way to get extra move actions?

tyckspoon
2008-01-16, 08:49 PM
One minor point:

Wouldn't taking 20 on spot checks take about 10 rounds barring some other way to get extra move actions?

Yes, since you have to be doing it with the active Spot instead of the reaction checks, but that's not necessarily a problem. The challenge provides no required time frame to complete the attempt, so unless the dragon has minions going through his lair or it is otherwise risky for the monk to go slowly, he can take the time he needs to be confident of securing an ambush. It'd be annoying as all heck and probably get you random encountered in a standard game, but it appears valid in terms of this specific challenge.

Chronos
2008-01-16, 09:51 PM
It'd be annoying as all heck and probably get you random encountered in a standard game,Not a problem. Nothing else in the dungeon is likely to have Spot/Listen checks high enough to detect you (dragons are one of the few things in the game which present any difficulty for optimized stealthers). If some kobolds or winter wolves or frost giants come wandering by, just stop and let them past.

Besides, you wouldn't tell the DM "My action now is to take 20 on a Spot check. Do I see anything? OK, now my action is to move 5 feet. OK, now my action is to take 20 on another Spot check...". You'd just tell the DM the same thing I said, and tell him to let you know when you see something.

Talic
2008-01-17, 02:50 AM
I am not sure what you are trying to say here.
The point is, however, that the Gauntlet description tells us that even though it deals lethal damage it is still considered an unarmed attack and you suffer the same consequences as if you were trying to make an Unarmed Strike, namely to provoke an AoO without the right feat etc.
The point about the light mace was to say that the text refers to a weapon group, they are not using Unarmed Strikes and Unarmed Attacks synonymously.

Close. The gauntlet description tells you that you deal lethal damage with Unarmed STRIKES. It specifically states Unarmed Strikes. Thus, other unarmed attacks are unaffected. Only Unarmed STRIKES. That is a specific attack. Incidentally, the reason that unarmed strikes provoke attacks of opportunity is that they don't present a credible threat. When you store a touch spell in them, or they deal lethal damage, they generally do not provoke.

Further, you don't suffer the same consequences as if you were making an unarmed strike. You ARE making an unarmed strike. Gauntlets allow you to deal lethal damage when making unarmed strikes. That's what it says. That's all it says.

They are not using unarmed strike and unarmed attack synonymously, agreed. They use the term unarmed strike, and unarmed strike only. This shows that it's not any unarmed attack, but the SPECIFIC unarmed strike.



Again you are responding to my quote out of context. I was referring to the second sentence of the description and you are treating it like I am responding to the first.

How can I take that in context, when the second statement hasn't been posted. The only SRD excerpt in this thread is the part I've cited. In order for your statement to be in context, you must provide the context. In other words, please post the portion of the SRD entry you are referring to.


No, the monk at least does not take a -4 penalty for making an Unarmed Strike. So either Unarmed Strike was never intended to be a proficiency as you claim or it is an omission as others claim.

Or all creatures are treated as being proficient with their natural weapons? Hmm. I do recall seeing something about that. Unarmed Strike is the natural attack for an unarmed human. Thus, they are proficient. Gauntlets have special text, much like rapier and weapon finesse, that bypass rules and allow for a natural weapon attack to be made with a manufactured weapon (though monk fists are treated as both natural and manufactured weapons, and thus benefit from anything that improves either).


In any case, it is irrelevant for the current argument.

As is everything other than the SRD entry, which states that an attack with a gauntlet IS an unarmed strike.


The point is that the gauntlet is a weapon that allows you to deal lethal damage with your unarmed strikes.

Correct. When making an unarmed strike, and while equipped with a gauntlet, you deal lethal damage.


Weapons require proficiency if you want to use them without penalty, even simple weapons like the gauntlet.

Then show me where a tiger is listed in having weapon proficiency (claw). Creatures are automatically proficient with their natural weapons. Again, text of the gauntlet showing that an attack with a gauntlet is an unarmed strike TRUMPS the table listing of Simple weapon. Text trumps table. That's the primary source takes precedence ruling.


Obviously I was referring to an attack with a fist actually wearing a gauntlet, hence the explicit mention of the gauntlet in the quote. I thought the whole point of this was to attack with magically enhanced gauntlets? Instead of talking about how you would attack with the dagger hidden in your boot.

I know. However, by RAW, even when dealing nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes, while wearing gauntlets, you add the enhancements of the gauntlets. Make sense? not really. Rules don't always make sense. But that's RAW for ya. It's counterintuitive, no doubt, but it is the correct interpretation.


Yes, why go with the logic and inconsistent interpretation that a simple weapon like the gauntlet would actually require simple weapon proficiency?
Instead we assume that it is not a weapon and the text calling it a weapon must be in error, even though it is listed as a weapon several other places?

Well, rapier is a medium weapon. Medium weapons cannot benefit from weapon finesse, it says in in several places. But the text says it can. TEXT OVERRULES ALL OTHER SOURCES. You're making the mistake of trying to apply the pattern to the exception. Is it logical? No. Is it inconsistent? Yes. Is it the ONLY CORRECT INTERPRETATION of the tect entry in the SRD for gauntlet? You bet your sweet hindquarters.


You have yet to show that the gauntlet is not a specific manufactured weapon and therefore does not require proficiency.

It is a specific manufactured weapon. Never disagreed. However, by its own text, attacks with it are unarmed strikes. Thus, any creature that can make an unarmed strike without penalty can do so with a gauntlet.


Alternatively you can show that an attack with a gauntlet is considered an Unarmed Strike.

SRD: "Gauntlet: This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes."

It's not "considered" an unarmed strike. It IS an unarmed strike. When attacking with a gauntlet, you are dealing lethal damage WITH AN UNARMED STRIKE. That's listed, RIGHT THERE IN THE SRD. There's no way to deny it. Are you actually READING that part? You've never refuted this point, but you seem to consistently ignore it to dance around the issue.


Until you can do that you don't have a case.

Well, I did about 4 posts ago, so I've had this same case for a while. Maybe the case is invisible. Maybe that's why you're not seeing something so glaringly obvious.


The fact that you deal lethal damage with your Unarmed Strikes when using your fists is not enough, since you are also still using the gauntlet as part of the attack.

You're now making the mistake of trying to cherry pick the parts of Unarmed strike and simple weapon proficiencies. You're taking the damage from unarmed strikes, the provoke attacks from unarmed strikes, but the proficiency requirements from simple weapons!? And you say this agruement of yours is somehow logical!? Unarmed Strike is a SPECIFIC attack (for the THIRD TIME), with SPECIFIC rules (considered proficient, provoke attack of opportunity, 1d3 damage, nonlethal damage). Monks change rules 2-4 on that. Gauntlets change rule 4 on that (nonlethal damage). The gauntlet's text is listed to SPECIFICALLY MODIFY Unarmed Strikes. Thus, you modify it where it states to, and you modify nothing else without RAW telling you to. It doesn't. You don't. What's so hard to understand here?



Is the main function of the gauntlet the ability to turn Unarmed Strike damage from non-lethal to lethal?

Yes.

Correct. You've now acknowledged that Gauntlets modify unarmed strikes.


Is my monk not proficient with gauntlets then?

No, because the Gauntlet is clearly listed as a weapon and weapons require proficiency if you want to use them without penalty. (The monk does not have Simple weapon Proficiency (Gauntlet))

Ah, no they do not. They require you have a proficiency to ATTACK with them without penalty. You'll never see an entry in any book "Full Attack: Gauntlet +19/+14/+9". You'll see "Full Attack: Unarmed Strike +19/+14/+9". You are not attacking with the gauntlets. You are attacking with your unarmed strike. The gauntlets merely MODIFY that (as you already agreed).


Could my monk not use the Gauntlet as part of a FoB attack at least?

No, because a FoB has to be made with either Unarmed Strikes or special monk weapons and the Gauntlet is neither.
Ah, but attacks with gauntlets ARE unarmed strikes, by your own admission. All oranges are round, but not all round things are oranges.

All attacks with gauntlets are unarmed strikes (by RAW and SRD entry), but not all unarmed strikes are made using gauntlets.

Think of it this way. You buy a chainsaw. It's a nice chainsaw, but it cuts a bit slow. You see a product listing that says, "Diamond tipped saw-blade: These finely crafted blades let you cut through lumber 50% faster with your chainsaw."

Now, by the logic of your last statement, you're not using your chainsaw when you use those blades.

I mean really, if the gauntlet is so exactly like a fist, that the monk's special ability of knowing how to attack with a fist so well that he gets extra damage with one applies, why do you try to say that he doesn't know how to use it really, and, even though he can hit more sensitive spots for greater damage, he isn't really as accurate as someone who took a level of rogue, wizard, sorceror, fighter, barbarian, bard, ranger, or paladin. He is so precise that his punches hurt more, but really, he doesn't know how to use that glove at all.:smallconfused:

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-17, 05:10 AM
Close. The gauntlet description tells you that you deal lethal damage with Unarmed STRIKES. It specifically states Unarmed Strikes. Thus, other unarmed attacks are unaffected. Only Unarmed STRIKES. That is a specific attack. Incidentally, the reason that unarmed strikes provoke attacks of opportunity is that they don't present a credible threat. When you store a touch spell in them, or they deal lethal damage, they generally do not provoke.

You are aware that gauntlets do provoke an AoO even though they deal lethal damage, right?


Gauntlet: ... A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack.




Further, you don't suffer the same consequences as if you were making an unarmed strike. You ARE making an unarmed strike. Gauntlets allow you to deal lethal damage when making unarmed strikes. That's what it says. That's all it says.

They are not using unarmed strike and unarmed attack synonymously, agreed. They use the term unarmed strike, and unarmed strike only. This shows that it's not any unarmed attack, but the SPECIFIC unarmed strike.


If you read past the first sentence of the description of the gauntlet you will see the reason why some people have been confusing the two.
You will see that they do in fact not only mention Unarmed Strike, but actually tell you that your gauntlet attack is considered an Unarmed Attack.


Gauntlet: This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack.


How can I take that in context, when the second statement hasn't been posted. The only SRD excerpt in this thread is the part I've cited. In order for your statement to be in context, you must provide the context. In other words, please post the portion of the SRD entry you are referring to.


I was responding to the post by Giacomo where he was referencing the second sentence (without quoting it, but it was ok, since I was aware of the wording and I knew where to find it in case I had forgotten).
You then proceeded to quote me as if it was a response to the first sentence.

Above I have provided the SRD quote containing both sentences so we can all familiarize ourselves with the gauntlet description.


Or all creatures are treated as being proficient with their natural weapons? Hmm. I do recall seeing something about that. Unarmed Strike is the natural attack for an unarmed human. Thus, they are proficient. Gauntlets have special text, much like rapier and weapon finesse, that bypass rules and allow for a natural weapon attack to be made with a manufactured weapon (though monk fists are treated as both natural and manufactured weapons, and thus benefit from anything that improves either).

Unarmed Strikes are not Natural Weapons. Natural weapons are clearly defined in the rules and does not include Unarmed Strikes.
They are both part of the creature, but that is just about the only thing they have in common.


As is everything other than the SRD entry, which states that an attack with a gauntlet IS an unarmed strike.


You actually have to consider all relevant text. You cannot just take one sentence and ignore everything else.


Then show me where a tiger is listed in having weapon proficiency (claw). Creatures are automatically proficient with their natural weapons. Again, text of the gauntlet showing that an attack with a gauntlet is an unarmed strike TRUMPS the table listing of Simple weapon. Text trumps table. That's the primary source takes precedence ruling.

Neither the Unarmed Strike or the gauntlet is a natural weapon.
And to invoke the primary/secondary source rule there has to be a conflict, which I am afraid there is not in this case.


I know. However, by RAW, even when dealing nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes, while wearing gauntlets, you add the enhancements of the gauntlets. Make sense? not really. Rules don't always make sense. But that's RAW for ya. It's counterintuitive, no doubt, but it is the correct interpretation.

I generally think that common sense and RAI at least should be considered when making such decisions.
The RAW does not exist in a vacuum.


Well, rapier is a medium weapon. Medium weapons cannot benefit from weapon finesse, it says in in several places. But the text says it can. TEXT OVERRULES ALL OTHER SOURCES. You're making the mistake of trying to apply the pattern to the exception. Is it logical? No. Is it inconsistent? Yes. Is it the ONLY CORRECT INTERPRETATION of the tect entry in the SRD for gauntlet? You bet your sweet hindquarters.

If you read the text you will see that it is clearly noted that it is an exception to the general rule. Specific rules and exceptions are generally noted.
You assume that there is a conflict between the entry and the text, because your interpretation requires that there is one.
The other interpretation that is also supported by the Sage has the benefit that it does not require that the RAW is incorrect, inconsistent and illogical (not to that extend at least).

And luckily I am not endowed with hindquarters making such a bet without any cost for me.


It is a specific manufactured weapon. Never disagreed. However, by its own text, attacks with it are unarmed strikes. Thus, any creature that can make an unarmed strike without penalty can do so with a gauntlet.

SRD: "Gauntlet: This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes."

It's not "considered" an unarmed strike. It IS an unarmed strike. When attacking with a gauntlet, you are dealing lethal damage WITH AN UNARMED STRIKE. That's listed, RIGHT THERE IN THE SRD. There's no way to deny it. Are you actually READING that part? You've never refuted this point, but you seem to consistently ignore it to dance around the issue.


Let me start by assuring you that I have read the entire description of the gauntlet and I have also read the weapon proficiency rules and looked at the table that classify gauntlets as simple weapons.

When using a gauntlet as a weapon you determine the damage of your attacks based on your unarmed strikes, which makes a lot of sense since the gauntlet, if used properly, if not with proficiency, should be wrapped around your hands like a metal glove.

Logically you must be using your Unarmed Strikes, or your fists at least, as part of this attack? Certainly.
However, and this is the crux of the argument, you are also using the gauntlet.
The gauntlet is a manufactured weapon that like all weapons (except where "noted" otherwise) requires proficiency.

This is not contradicted by the RAW anywhere and the FAQ even supports it.


Well, I did about 4 posts ago, so I've had this same case for a while. Maybe the case is invisible. Maybe that's why you're not seeing something so glaringly obvious.

An argument that requires the RAW to be in error, so you have to invoke the primary/secondary source rules, reclassify gauntlets as non-weapons, possibly change Unarmed Strikes to Natural weapons and ignore the FAQ, I would not call glaringly obvious.

In fact, I would prefer an interpretation that did not require any of the above.


You're now making the mistake of trying to cherry pick the parts of Unarmed strike and simple weapon proficiencies.

Using the existing rules as they apply is not cherry picking. You cannot just ignore the part of the rules that does not support your argument.


You're taking the damage from unarmed strikes,

Yes, it is the line from the gauntlet description that you have been quoting all along.


the provoke attacks from unarmed strikes,

That is not from the Unarmed Strikes. That comes from the second sentence in the gauntlet description telling us that a gauntlet attack is considered an unarmed attack.
(The second sentence is quoted above)


but the proficiency requirements from simple weapons!?

Yes, the gauntlet is listed as a simple weapon and as such requires the correct weapon proficiency as manufactured weapons normally do.


And you say this agruement of yours is somehow logical!?

Yes, it follows the letter of the RAW.


Unarmed Strike is a SPECIFIC attack (for the THIRD TIME), with SPECIFIC rules (considered proficient, provoke attack of opportunity, 1d3 damage, nonlethal damage). Monks change rules 2-4 on that. Gauntlets change rule 4 on that (nonlethal damage). The gauntlet's text is listed to SPECIFICALLY MODIFY Unarmed Strikes. Thus, you modify it where it states to, and you modify nothing else without RAW telling you to. It doesn't. You don't. What's so hard to understand here?

And gauntlets are specific weapons with specific rules.

If it were as you say they should not have included the second sentence of the gauntlet description (Quoted above for your convenience) and they should not listed it as a simple weapon or at least have written that the attack was considered an Unarmed Strike rather than a Gauntlet attack.


Correct. You've now acknowledged that Gauntlets modify unarmed strikes.


Yes, the gauntlet is a weapon that modifies another weapon.


Ah, no they do not. They require you have a proficiency to ATTACK with them without penalty. You'll never see an entry in any book "Full Attack: Gauntlet +19/+14/+9". You'll see "Full Attack: Unarmed Strike +19/+14/+9". You are not attacking with the gauntlets. You are attacking with your unarmed strike. The gauntlets merely MODIFY that (as you already agreed).

Ah, but attacks with gauntlets ARE unarmed strikes, by your own admission. All oranges are round, but not all round things are oranges.

All attacks with gauntlets are unarmed strikes (by RAW and SRD entry), but not all unarmed strikes are made using gauntlets.

Well if I am not attacking with the gauntlets I cannot gain any benefit from weapon enhancements and such, which I thought was the whole point of this exercise.
A correct entry for an attack with a Gauntlet would read "Attack: Gauntlet ..."

The Gauntlet entry itself reads:

A strike with a gauntlet...

So clearly someone is using the Gauntlet to attack.

The Sage also like to use Gauntlet attacks in the FAQ.


Think of it this way. You buy a chainsaw. It's a nice chainsaw, but it cuts a bit slow. You see a product listing that says, "Diamond tipped saw-blade: These finely crafted blades let you cut through lumber 50% faster with your chainsaw."

Now, by the logic of your last statement, you're not using your chainsaw when you use those blades.


The problem is that you are not acknowledging that you are also using those special saw-blades.

Perhaps they require a special technique before they can be utilized in the most efficient way.


I mean really, if the gauntlet is so exactly like a fist, that the monk's special ability of knowing how to attack with a fist so well that he gets extra damage with one applies, why do you try to say that he doesn't know how to use it really, and, even though he can hit more sensitive spots for greater damage, he isn't really as accurate as someone who took a level of rogue, wizard, sorceror, fighter, barbarian, bard, ranger, or paladin. He is so precise that his punches hurt more, but really, he doesn't know how to use that glove at all.:smallconfused:


It is not my fault that the monk was not made proficient with gauntlets. The wizard is not proficient with them either though.
If you want to know the reason you would have to ask the designers.
The monk also cannot punch any harder while wearing the gauntlets. He already has the ability to deal lethal damage with Unarmed Strikes.

Prowl
2008-01-17, 05:31 AM
Let's face it...


... the class 'fails to achieve its basic design intent'.


However, if I would venture a starting point, I'd say equip him with...


... a big honking greatsword, of course.

Talic
2008-01-17, 06:11 AM
I'm not up to putting together a full build, but a few things to note:

First, Stunning Fist is usable only once per round, barring some non-core feat to change that. So Sir Giacomo's monk, at least, is not using a Stunning Fist on every attack, and Flurry and related tactics don't do too much good if you're building around Stunning Fist.

Second, the monk can probably beat the dragon at the stealth game. The dragon has a +25 Hide, which the monk can probably beat with 23 ranks of Spot and a high Wisdom (which the monk probably wants, anyway), while the dragon's Spot and Listen are around +37, which the monk can beat with some effort (23 ranks, dex boosters, racial and/or size bonuses, masterwork tools, the Stealthy feat, elixirs...).

The monk's tactics should probably include moving five feet at a time, then taking 20 on Spot checks to hopefully find the dragon from outside Blindsense range (range penalties apply for both spotting each other), then buffing up while still hidden. The dragon's lair might have enough twisty passages (all alike) that there are no clear lines of sight beyond blindsense range, though, in which case Darkstalker is a must. Note also that the stealth arms race is probably going to use up all of the monk's skill points, or close to it, so any plan relying on both stealth and some other skill(s) is going to require some Intelligence.

Taking 20 takes 20 times as long, each take 20 would take several rounds (around 4, at least), and would require the thing you're trying to spot remaining pretty unmoving for that time. Not feasible. Taking 10 would be allowed, however. Further, how does the monk deal with finding a burrowed dragon? After all, you can't see what isn't there. Further, the dragon's spot check is 40+... That gives the dragon a very good chance of spotting monk.

The biggest problems that monk has is dealing damage to the dragon and dealing with a retreating dragon.

Talic
2008-01-17, 07:06 AM
You are aware that gauntlets do provoke an AoO even though they deal lethal damage, right?

Hence the term "generally". It's not a 100% thing.


If you read past the first sentence of the description of the gauntlet you will see the reason why some people have been confusing the two.
You will see that they do in fact not only mention Unarmed Strike, but actually tell you that your gauntlet attack is considered an Unarmed Attack.

Correct. It is otherwise considered an unarmed attack. And earlier in the SRD entry it states that it is an unarmed strike. What's in the middle, I wonder? Something stating that you need proficiency (Gauntlet) to make this specialized unarmed strike? If not, then you're barking up mistake tree in Incorrectville.


I was responding to the post by Giacomo where he was referencing the second sentence (without quoting it, but it was ok, since I was aware of the wording and I knew where to find it in case I had forgotten).
You then proceeded to quote me as if it was a response to the first sentence.

No, I was showing you the quote of the first statement, without particularly caring what you were replying to, since it is the first sentence that completely proves you wrong.


Above I have provided the SRD quote containing both sentences so we can all familiarize ourselves with the gauntlet description.

And it states that it allows you to do lethal damage with unarmed strikes. Otherwise, it is an unarmed attack.

Thus, it is treated as an unarmed attack for ALL purposes other than nonlethal damage (second sentence), and it IS an unarmed strike (first sentence). Correct? Based on this, I will ask this one question:

Does a character making an unarmed attack suffer from a -4 penalty if he does not have Simple Weapon Proficiency: Gauntlet?
Hint: The answer is no. This is yet another reason why you are wrong.



Unarmed Strikes are not Natural Weapons. Natural weapons are clearly defined in the rules and does not include Unarmed Strikes.
They are both part of the creature, but that is just about the only thing they have in common.

It is ruled that unarmed strikes benefit from Magic Fang, which improves natural weapons. Thus, Unarmed Strikes must be natural weapons. Unless you're saying that Wizards CustServ, the SRD, and the FAQ are wrong, hmm?


You actually have to consider all relevant text. You cannot just take one sentence and ignore everything else.

The other part of the text states that for every other purpose, it is an unarmed attack. Thus, it is an unarmed attack for the following purposes (not all inclusive): Damage. enhancement eligibility. Feat requirements. Feat benefits. Special Abilities. Not so special abilities. How it interacts with kitchen sinks. How it interacts with non-kitchen sink items.

The second sentence is telling you that the ONLY difference between gauntlet attacks and non-gauntlet attacks is the option to deal lethal damage. This should be fairly evident to anyone who reads english at a high school level or better.


Neither the Unarmed Strike or the gauntlet is a natural weapon.
And to invoke the primary/secondary source rule there has to be a conflict, which I am afraid there is not in this case.

Wrong. SRD states that unarmed strikes are both natural and manufactured weapons. Thus, they can be affected by both Magic Fang and Magic Weapon. There is a conflict. Text states that this is an unarmed attack for every purpose other than the dealing of nonlethal damage.
And if the unarmed strike is not a natural weapon, PLEASE, pray tell, in whatever warped world you're living in, what type of weapon is it?? Is a fist natural or manufactured? (Hint: By D&D rules for monks, it's both)



I generally think that common sense and RAI at least should be considered when making such decisions.

Which is why you state that a fist isn't a natural weapon?:smallamused:


The RAW does not exist in a vacuum.

And yet, for purposes of common ground rules interpretation, it does! Imagine that.


If you read the text you will see that it is clearly noted that it is an exception to the general rule. Specific rules and exceptions are generally noted.

Yup. It's a simple manufactured weapon that allows you to deal lethal damage with your natural attacks. That's a pretty special exception, and the reason that there is text for it. Otherwise, it's considered unarmed (as in NOT armed, as in, what proficiency applies to an unarmed person?)


You assume that there is a conflict between the entry and the text, because your interpretation requires that there is one.

No, I state that there is a conflict between the text and the table because there is one.


The other interpretation that is also supported by the Sage has the benefit that it does not require that the RAW is incorrect, inconsistent and illogical (not to that extend at least).

No, it just requires blatantly ignoring the RAW when they don't say what you want them to. They involve unarmed attacks to not be natural weapons, and "otherwise are considered to be unarmed attacks" to mean "unarmed attacks for the purposes of damage, but not for the purposes of attack proficiency because I want to add an extra stipulation that isn't supported by the text at all".



Let me start by assuring you that I have read the entire description of the gauntlet and I have also read the weapon proficiency rules and looked at the table that classify gauntlets as simple weapons.

Ah, I'm sorry, I was under the impression that anyone who has read that would have to be a glaring idiot to not understand it. I appear to be mistaken in that regard. However, i've explained it clearly, and simply, and it should be straightforward.


When using a gauntlet as a weapon you determine the damage of your attacks based on your unarmed strikes, which makes a lot of sense since the gauntlet, if used properly, if not with proficiency, should be wrapped around your hands like a metal glove.

Agreed.


Logically you must be using your Unarmed Strikes, or your fists at least, as part of this attack? Certainly.

You'd think, yes. However, that's not how RAW shows it. Unarmed strikes can be punches, kicks, knees, and the gauntlet, oddly enough, by RAW, gives you lethal damage on them all, if you want it.


However, and this is the crux of the argument, you are also using the gauntlet.

The gauntlet is a manufactured weapon that like all weapons (except where "noted" otherwise) requires proficiency.
[/quote]
As is a monk's unarmed attack. And yet you stated earlier that there is no mention anywhere of weapon proficiency for that attack. Does this mean that all monks take a -4 to hit when not using monk weapons?


This is not contradicted by the RAW anywhere and the FAQ even supports it.

It is, and I've shown it.
Unarmed attacks for monks are natural and manufactured weapons. Which weapons, Silvanas, require proficiencies, and which do not? Please be a little less arbitrary this time.


An argument that requires the RAW to be in error, so you have to invoke the primary/secondary source rules, reclassify gauntlets as non-weapons, possibly change Unarmed Strikes to Natural weapons and ignore the FAQ, I would not call glaringly obvious.

and one that states that fists are not natural weapons is hardly better.


In fact, I would prefer an interpretation that did not require any of the above.

And your preference is fine for homebrew. But it isn't RAW. RAW sometimes does contradict itself, no matter how much we want to close our eyes real tight and wish it weren't so. That is why the primary/secondary rule exists, because Wizards knows there are conflicts.


Using the existing rules as they apply is not cherry picking. You cannot just ignore the part of the rules that does not support your argument.

When it allows you to ignore the text of the entry, yes it is. That's exactly what you're doing.

However, frankly, I'm tired of arguing the point. So get your pithy little response in, flawed and hopelessly incorrect as it will be, and that will be the end of it.

For the purposes of THIS challenge, however, monks will not receive a -4 penalty to attack when using gauntlets. You can label that homebrew if you like, I have ceased to care about your flawed opinions. I know it's fact by RAW, the people reading these statements should also. Your opinion will no longer matter in this thread. Argue your point elsewhere.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-17, 09:22 AM
Hence the term "generally". It's not a 100% thing.

Just making sure that you were aware that gauntlet attacks did provoke AoO, because that is what the second sentence tells us.


Correct. It is otherwise considered an unarmed attack. And earlier in the SRD entry it states that it is an unarmed strike. What's in the middle, I wonder? Something stating that you need proficiency (Gauntlet) to make this specialized unarmed strike? If not, then you're barking up mistake tree in Incorrectville.


I have not been in this place you describe and I certainly do not bark up trees of a species which I am unfamiliar with.
Where I in such a place, I think I would leave as soon as possible.
Every weapon entry does not mention which proficiency is needed to use the weapon. That is stated in the general rules.
The Gauntlet is still the weapon used when making an attack with the Gauntlet.


No, I was showing you the quote of the first statement, without particularly caring what you were replying to, since it is the first sentence that completely proves you wrong.


Well I urge you to read the fairly long debate I had with Giacomo on this very subject in the other thread then.


And it states that it allows you to do lethal damage with unarmed strikes. Otherwise, it is an unarmed attack.

Thus, it is treated as an unarmed attack for ALL purposes other than nonlethal damage (second sentence), and it IS an unarmed strike (first sentence). Correct? Based on this, I will ask this one question:

Does a character making an unarmed attack suffer from a -4 penalty if he does not have Simple Weapon Proficiency: Gauntlet?
Hint: The answer is no. This is yet another reason why you are wrong.

The Gauntlet proficiency only covers gauntlets.
You might as well be asking: "Does a character making an attack with ligth weapon suffer from a -4 penalty if he/she does not have Simple Weapon Proficiency: Light mace.?


It is ruled that unarmed strikes benefit from Magic Fang, which improves natural weapons. Thus, Unarmed Strikes must be natural weapons. Unless you're saying that Wizards CustServ, the SRD, and the FAQ are wrong, hmm?

It is true that you can benefit from the effects of Magic Fang on your Unarmed Strikes even though they are not Natural weapons. I am aware the spell descriptions calls them that, but the spell description is not the primary source in this case and is in fact in error, although the error is of no consequence unless someone wants to try and use this error for other purposes, such as claiming that Unarmed Strikes are natural Weapons.


The other part of the text states that for every other purpose, it is an unarmed attack. Thus, it is an unarmed attack for the following purposes (not all inclusive): Damage. enhancement eligibility. Feat requirements. Feat benefits. Special Abilities. Not so special abilities. How it interacts with kitchen sinks. How it interacts with non-kitchen sink items.


No damage is considered in the first sentence. It is not enhanced like an unarmed attack, it is enhanced like a magic weapon, Gauntlet.
The others depend on the text of the feats and abilities in question.
The main thing however, is that you are considered unarmed and thus provoke AoOs.


The second sentence is telling you that the ONLY difference between gauntlet attacks and non-gauntlet attacks is the option to deal lethal damage. This should be fairly evident to anyone who reads english at a high school level or better.


And the fact that you have to use a gauntlet, which carries its own requirements.


Wrong. SRD states that unarmed strikes are both natural and manufactured weapons. Thus, they can be affected by both Magic Fang and Magic Weapon. There is a conflict. Text states that this is an unarmed attack for every purpose other than the dealing of nonlethal damage.
And if the unarmed strike is not a natural weapon, PLEASE, pray tell, in whatever warped world you're living in, what type of weapon is it?? Is a fist natural or manufactured? (Hint: By D&D rules for monks, it's both)

Which is why you state that a fist isn't a natural weapon?:smallamused:


Unarmed Strikes seems to live their own life. They are closer to manufactured weapons, but share traits with natural weapons too.
However, the main reasons that they are not natural weapons are that natural weapons do not grant iterative attacks and does not provoke AoOs.

I have provided the description of Natural Weapons so you can see they are clearly not the same except for being a natural part of the creature.


Natural Weapons: Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature. A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Likewise, it threatens any space it can reach. Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons.

You will find other entries and questions in the FAQ saying the same thing.

Obviously the monk does things a little differently:


A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

But that is only for the purpose of spells and effects and clearly an exception.


And yet, for purposes of common ground rules interpretation, it does! Imagine that.


Not quite, a basic understanding of English is also required as you yourself pointed out.


Yup. It's a simple manufactured weapon that allows you to deal lethal damage with your natural attacks. That's a pretty special exception, and the reason that there is text for it. Otherwise, it's considered unarmed (as in NOT armed, as in, what proficiency applies to an unarmed person?)


No, if you look at the Spiked Gauntlet you will se teh reason for including it. The purpose is not proficiency, but rather AoO.
(See above for explanation of the Natural Weapon issue)


No, I state that there is a conflict between the text and the table because there is one.


Only if you want have the RAW fit your argument.


No, it just requires blatantly ignoring the RAW when they don't say what you want them to. They involve unarmed attacks to not be natural weapons, and "otherwise are considered to be unarmed attacks" to mean "unarmed attacks for the purposes of damage, but not for the purposes of attack proficiency because I want to add an extra stipulation that isn't supported by the text at all".


Unarmed Attacks are not natural weapons. (see above)

Gauntlet damage is derived from Unarmed Strikes, not Unarmed Attacks.
Just like Longsword damage is not derived from a group called "armed attack".

Proficiency is covered by the weapon groups as per the proficiency rules.


Ah, I'm sorry, I was under the impression that anyone who has read that would have to be a glaring idiot to not understand it. I appear to be mistaken in that regard. However, i've explained it clearly, and simply, and it should be straightforward.


I think the history of this question shows that it is not simple and straightforward.


As is a monk's unarmed attack. And yet you stated earlier that there is no mention anywhere of weapon proficiency for that attack. Does this mean that all monks take a -4 to hit when not using monk weapons?


I certainly don't think that is the intend and I have previously explained the two possible explanations:
- Either everyone is assumed to be proficient with Unarmed Strikes. (IMHO this one is the most reasonable)
- It is an omission.


It is, and I've shown it.
Unarmed attacks for monks are natural and manufactured weapons. Which weapons, Silvanas, require proficiencies, and which do not? Please be a little less arbitrary this time.

As can be seen from my quote about the Monk' Unarmed Strikes you statement is not very precise.
It is only the Unarmed Strikes that get special treatment and only for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve them.
Again I am not arbitrary, but WotC was a bit sloppy when they left out Unarmed Strikes.
However, all manufactured weapons certainly require proficiency, including the Gauntlet.


and one that states that fists are not natural weapons is hardly better.


No?
Even though it is clearly RAW?
(See the definition of natural weapons above)


And your preference is fine for homebrew. But it isn't RAW. RAW sometimes does contradict itself, no matter how much we want to close our eyes real tight and wish it weren't so. That is why the primary/secondary rule exists, because Wizards knows there are conflicts.


Conflicts exist and errors were made, quite a few actually. (Take the spell description that got confused about the status of Unarmed Strikes as a good example (even if it would pose no problems in a normal game))
However, when faced with two different interpretations and one of them is only viable if we ignore parts of the RAW and the FAQ I tend to go with the other one.


When it allows you to ignore the text of the entry, yes it is. That's exactly what you're doing.


It is not ignored. It just does not create a conflict with the proficiency rules like you need it to.


However, frankly, I'm tired of arguing the point. So get your pithy little response in, flawed and hopelessly incorrect as it will be, and that will be the end of it.


If you knew my response before it was typed couldn't you just have posted it and saved me the trouble of typing it out? :smallamused:


For the purposes of THIS challenge, however, monks will not receive a -4 penalty to attack when using gauntlets. You can label that homebrew if you like, I have ceased to care about your flawed opinions. I know it's fact by RAW, the people reading these statements should also. Your opinion will no longer matter in this thread. Argue your point elsewhere.


I think that makes a very reasonable and balanced house rule, although people that by RAW consider the monk to be overpowered might find it completely broken. :smallwink:

It is possible that my opinion will not matter to you anymore, but I hardly think that you can guarantee that one else who might be reading this thread will at least consider any point or argument I might make. :smallsmile:

Theli
2008-01-17, 11:37 AM
Wow, I don't believe I've ever seen one side of an internet argument insult the other so much while the other side continues to maintain civility. It's amazing.

For what it's worth, I'd like to lend support to Silvanos' argument. (I think I might have made a post really early in this thread which stated much the same thing.) It might not be fair, or reasonable, but by RAW the gauntlet is indeed considered a simple weapon with significant restrictions for the monk.

It's really nothing a very reasonable house rule couldn't fix, as this is quite possibly a design oversight.

Sir Giacomo
2008-01-17, 06:34 PM
Wow, amazing exchange of thoughts on the gauntlet thing (and no, Theli, there were not many insults involved imo).

I think that actually both Lord Silvanos and Talic made valid points. And I believe that the rules are simply highly confusing in this respect.

Yes, unarmed strike is listed as a simple weapon, and, as such, wizard, druid and monk are NOT proficient in it (and will get -4 malus on attacks).

On the other hand, the monk is apparently considered proficient with unarmed strike (check the flurry tables. No penalty for non-proficiency included).

Then, the text of the gauntlet CLEARLY (in core rules the clearest you will get in this respect) says that it is an unarmed strike in everything except lethal damage. So the unarmed strike rules should apply in full (including abilility to flurry, damage, proficiency).

But then, for some reason, in the FAQ there are strong hints that the designers (or custserv?) see things differently. In a response to getting enhancement bonus to unarmed strikes, they do not see gauntlet and spiked gauntlet as monk weapons (would agree with the 2nd part here btw), but apparently as weapons. Thus, no monk special abilities with gauntlets would apply at all. And of course, the monk would thus need the simple weapon proficiency - gauntlet (useless to him now, though). And the FAQ pinpoints the amulet of mighty fists. An item that is quite stupid since it is expensive and takes up the neck space already slotted for WIS, CON or natural AC enhancers. Great.

The RAW point toward's Talic's and my (original) viewpoint, the FAQ towards Lord Silvanos' interpretation (actually to more, it would render the whole gauntlet as useless for the monk while Lord Silvanos would argue so far only that a simple weapon proficiency is needed, while everything else goes.

Ach, just get UMD and a wand of holy weapon and your'e set.:smallsmile:

- Giacomo

PS: good anti-dragon monk, horseboy! Never thought a multiclass monk would kick so nicely!
PPS: @Chronos-good ideas on the anti-dragon tactics of sneaking up. Yes, dragon minions against the powerful sneaky monk would not be that much of a problem. And the dragon hardly is always burrowed somewhere (and the moment it moves, it cannot move silently burrowing since it may be silent, but the collapsing tunnel makes noise).
More of a problem may be stuff like alarm spells and traps.

Chronos
2008-01-17, 10:00 PM
Quoth Talic:
Further, the dragon's spot check is 40+... That gives the dragon a very good chance of spotting monk.I make it 37: 33 ranks, +2 Wis, +2 Alertness (and the same for Listen). Which is indeed tough to beat, but still doable. Let's look at the Move Silently, since it's the tougher one to beat:

Dark halfling 19/LA 1
22 ranks
+2 racial
+6 Dark template
+2 Stealthy
+10 Dex (give or take, depending on the build)
+10 competence from Elixir of Sneaking
+2 circumstance from masterwork slippers
+1 minimum roll on d20
55 total
So the dragon has no chance to hear him until he's within 30 feet, and probably not even then. Hide is the same story, except that it's a +4 size modifier instead of the +2 racial, and +8 from the template instead of +6.

I had forgotten about Alarm and other traps, though... I'm used to thinking in terms of rogues, who can just find and disarm them, but that's not an option for a monk. And while there are other ways of dealing with traps, most of them aren't very stealthy.

And I also agree that the dragon's burrowing is a serious problem. We need to either incapacitate the dragon before it realizes it's up against a significant challenge, or to have some way of following it, and I don't really have any good ideas on either of those scores.

Theli
2008-01-17, 10:51 PM
Wow, amazing exchange of thoughts on the gauntlet thing (and no, Theli, there were not many insults involved imo).

Perhaps insult was the wrong word. More like "snark" and "rudeness". Looking back the only technical insult was "glaring idiot", though there were several statements which seemed to blatantly question the other party's rudimentary reasoning and comprehension skills. Although perhaps that's a more common element of the typical debate than I realized.

Anyway, I probably did read more into the vehemence of Talic's post than he, perhaps, intended.

horseboy
2008-01-18, 12:30 AM
It is ruled that unarmed strikes benefit from Magic Fang, which improves natural weapons. Thus, Unarmed Strikes must be natural weapons. Unless you're saying that Wizards CustServ, the SRD, and the FAQ are wrong, hmm?

Given that pages 19&20 of the FAQ is all about how a monk can NOT flurry with a natural weapon, let's hope not. Then on page 20&21 is how gauntlets don't count as a monk weapon so you can't flurry with them. Here I'll quote:


Can a monk get her unarmed strike enchanted as a magic weapon?
No. Even a magic gauntlet or spike gauntlet isn't the answer, since these aren't listed as special monk weapons (and therefore aren't as versatile as unarmed strikes.

Exactly how often can a monk attack with a single manufactured weapon when using the flurry of blows ability? For example, if I have a +1 alchemical silver dagger, and I'm allowed three attacks in a flurry, how many of those are a dagger attack? What if I have two daggers? How about with natural weaponry, such as a claw or bite? For example, if I have a vampire monk, can I flurry with a slam attack and drain energy multiple times from one living foe? If natural attacks don't work with flurry, why not?
You can't use a dagger in a flurry of blows at all. When you use the flurry ability, you must attack with either unarmed strikes or special monk weapons. Only six are included in the Player's Handbook (kama, nunchuka, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). A natural weapon (any natural weapon) is neither an unarmed strike nor a special monk weapon, so you can't use it in a flurry.
...
It might seem a tad strange that you cannot use a natural weapon, such as a slam or a claw when you can use a monk weapon such as a sai or kama. However, natural weaponry isn't as handy as natural weaponry. You never get extra attacks from a high base attack bonus with natural weaponry, and the monk's flurry ability is another way to get extra attacks from your base attack bonus. Please note that a vampire monk using its unarmed strike ability is not using its slam attack and cannot drain energy.

Talic
2008-01-18, 01:32 AM
Wow, I don't believe I've ever seen one side of an internet argument insult the other so much while the other side continues to maintain civility. It's amazing.

If you'd care to level accusations, by all means, do so. I do believe I was quite careful not to direct any insults at Silvanas specifically, though I do believe that you're likely not referring to him. I decided to end the whole arguement when I realized I was making more than 10 entries per response, and going nowhere. Both points had been completely made, neither of us is willing to concede the other's view, and thus there's no point of continuing it.
Well, that and I firmly believe that internet arguing is not unlike special olympics racing. Even if you win, you're still retarded. I didn't wish to be a retard any longer.


For what it's worth, I'd like to lend support to Silvanos' argument. (I think I might have made a post really early in this thread which stated much the same thing.) It might not be fair, or reasonable, but in my opinion by RAW the gauntlet is indeed considered a simple weapon with significant restrictions for the monk.

Edited for correctness.
And you are welcome to believe that. By RAW, the weapon also specifically states that you are making unarmed strikes, which Silvanas has already stated that all characters are proficient in. I personally agree with him in this regard. Now, there is enough wiggle room, I suppose, to argue it either way, and both sides are using RAW to support their opinion. Thus, the arguement won't likely be resolved without a definitive ruling from an authorized source.


It's really nothing a very reasonable house rule couldn't fix, as this is quite possibly a design oversight.
And, for your arguement, one would be needed. For mine, no houserule is required.



Can a monk get her unarmed strike enchanted as a magic weapon?
No. Even a magic gauntlet or spike gauntlet isn't the answer, since these aren't listed as special monk weapons (and therefore aren't as versatile as unarmed strikes.

Exactly how often can a monk attack with a single manufactured weapon when using the flurry of blows ability? For example, if I have a +1 alchemical silver dagger, and I'm allowed three attacks in a flurry, how many of those are a dagger attack? What if I have two daggers? How about with natural weaponry, such as a claw or bite? For example, if I have a vampire monk, can I flurry with a slam attack and drain energy multiple times from one living foe? If natural attacks don't work with flurry, why not?
You can't use a dagger in a flurry of blows at all. When you use the flurry ability, you must attack with either unarmed strikes or special monk weapons. Only six are included in the Player's Handbook (kama, nunchuka, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). A natural weapon (any natural weapon) is neither an unarmed strike nor a special monk weapon, so you can't use it in a flurry.
...
It might seem a tad strange that you cannot use a natural weapon, such as a slam or a claw when you can use a monk weapon such as a sai or kama. However, natural weaponry isn't as handy as natural weaponry. You never get extra attacks from a high base attack bonus with natural weaponry, and the monk's flurry ability is another way to get extra attacks from your base attack bonus. Please note that a vampire monk using its unarmed strike ability is not using its slam attack and cannot drain energy.

So for most purposes, Unarmed strikes are neither considered natural or manufactured weapons. Fair enough.

Underlined statements will now be discussed.

1st statement, Gauntlets aren't as versatile as unarmed strikes? By RAW, they ARE unarmed strikes. Methinks the person who posted this answer was not WotC approved.

2nd statement. Natural weaponry isn't as handy as natural weaponry... Hmm. I'm gonna have to disagree with this one, and state that natural weaponry is EXACTLY as handy as natural weaponry. Anyone want to challenge that one?
Yes, following statements show that unarmed strike is a specific attack, like slam, and you cannot take elements from another attack (such as Slam) without RAW specifically allowing you to. Luckily, gauntlets have text enabling you to use them with an Unarmed Strike, so they are different in this regard from a slam attack, or other natural weaponry. Exactly how they are different is what WAS being debated.

Talic
2008-01-18, 01:56 AM
Perhaps insult was the wrong word. More like "snark" and "rudeness". Looking back the only technical insult was "glaring idiot", though there were several statements which seemed to blatantly question the other party's rudimentary reasoning and comprehension skills. Although perhaps that's a more common element of the typical debate than I realized.

Anyway, I probably did read more into the vehemence of Talic's post than he, perhaps, intended.

You certainly did, considering the fact that I specifically admitted I was mistaken when I previously assumed that only a blatant idiot would fail to understand that. I did so because there was a RAW interpretation, however tenuous, that supports his view.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-18, 02:23 AM
1st statement, Gauntlets aren't as versatile as unarmed strikes? By RAW, they ARE unarmed strikes. Methinks the person who posted this answer was not WotC approved.

The answer was posted by lead designer Andy Collins, the official Sage.

The language and entries of the FAQ was "recently" changed, so now only this answer to the question about Gauntlets used by a monk is featured.
(Earlier two answers about Gauntlets contradicted each other. One allowed for use in a flurry while the other said it could not be used. The need for proficiency was never questioned even in the answer supporting the use of a Gauntlet in a FOB.)

Personally I think that the most reasonable interpretation would be that a gauntlet can be used in a FoB attack, but the change in the FAQ has forced me to reconsider my interpretation.

The need for proficiency is not and has never been in question though

Talic
2008-01-18, 02:29 AM
The answer was posted by lead designer Andy Collins, the official Sage.

The language and entries of the FAQ was "recently" changed, so now only this answer to the question about Gauntlets used by a monk is featured.
(Earlier two answers about Gauntlets contradicted each other. One allowed for use in a flurry while the other said it could not be used. The need for proficiency was never questioned even in the answer supporting the use of a Gauntlet in a FOB.)

Did I not mention several posts ago that I was through with the arguement? See horse.
Horse dead.

Why do you persist in beating it, Silvanas? You've already gotten the xp.

horseboy
2008-01-18, 02:34 AM
1st statement, Gauntlets aren't as versatile as unarmed strikes? By RAW, they ARE unarmed strikes. Methinks the person who posted this answer was not WotC approved.How would the person writing the FAQ for WotC not be WotC approved?


2nd statement. Natural weaponry isn't as handy as natural weaponry... Hmm. I'm gonna have to disagree with this one, and state that natural weaponry is EXACTLY as handy as natural weaponry. Anyone want to challenge that one? Yeah, that second one should have been manufactured. I lost my spot while typing.


Yes, following statements show that unarmed strike is a specific attack, like slam, and you cannot take elements from another attack (such as Slam) without RAW specifically allowing you to. Luckily, gauntlets have text enabling you to use them with an Unarmed Strike, so they are different in this regard from a slam attack, or other natural weaponry. Exactly how they are different is what WAS being debated.
First, let's define what it is you're trying to do with it. You can't flurry with it, since it's not a monk WEAPON. Nor apparently do enchants on it count.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-18, 02:37 AM
Did I not mention several posts ago that I was through with the arguement?

Yet you seemed to be arguing still. :smallamused:

In any case, I will correct false statements and errors as I see them for the benefit of everyone reading this thread.



See horse.
Horse dead.

Why do you persist in beating it, Silvanas? You've already gotten the xp.


In a world with regeneration, undeads and powerful healing magic capable of bringing the dead back it is often wise to make sure that even dead horses don't rise again.

McMindflayer
2008-01-18, 02:41 AM
And here's my monk build that only lacks flight. It has some sense on how to find the dragon, and can deal damage, not only from afar, but when close up.
I even helped nullify the full attack of the dragon - Reverse hand says I get an AoO when my opponent succesfully strikes me., at a-5 penalty. With my gloves, that's a -3 penalty. So I get +20 to my attack, and I use stunning fist. He's stunned and stops his round. And he also takes fire damage and 1d4 force damage.

so this should kick a White dragons butt.
http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=38945

Talic
2008-01-18, 02:43 AM
How would the person writing the FAQ for WotC not be WotC approved?

So this isn't the GitP Q&A? That makes a difference. There is more than one of those Q&A things. Evidently no shortage of people who don't know answers and people who think they have them all.


Yeah, that second one should have been manufactured. I lost my spot while typing.

Out of curiousity, was there some effect prohibiting cut and paste?


First, let's define what it is you're trying to do with it. You can't flurry with it, since it's not a monk WEAPON. Nor apparently do enchants on it count.
Therein lies the debate that was had here. You say: "Gauntlet not monk weapon. Flurry bad." I say: "Flurry allowed with unarmed strike. Gauntlet attack unarmed strike. Flurry good."

The RAW are approached from two different directions on the issue. Oh, and forgive the half-orc with an int of 4 speak. I wanted to emphasize how stupid I think all of this is, to begin with. For a question to actually be worth 2+ pages of arguements, at least in my opinion, it must either directly affect my paycheck or my love life. This does neither.

Rule it however the heck you want at home, and treat it as the "Flurry good" for the purposes of the challenge I put forth.

Talic
2008-01-18, 02:48 AM
Yet you seemed to be arguing still. :smallamused:

I was arguing that the point is open to interpretation, not that mine or yours was correct. And I was not arguing with you on the issue, exactly as I stated I would not.


In any case, I will correct false statements and errors as I see them for the benefit of everyone reading this thread.

And I shall point out the abuse of dead horses as I see it, for the benefit of whatever it is I am benefiting.


In a world with regeneration, undeads and powerful healing magic capable of bringing the dead back it is often wise to make sure that even dead horses don't rise again.
Beating will not prevent a dead horse from rising later as an undead. I recommend blessing the corpse, or burning it, if you will, but beating it merely prevents you from spending your time beating things that you CAN gain xp from.
As far as raising? It is my most heartfelt opinion that this particular horse is not of enough value to justify a 5000gp diamond.

horseboy
2008-01-18, 02:53 AM
Out of curiousity, was there some effect prohibiting cut and paste?It's a .pdf and I don't have Adobe Writer, only Reader.


Therein lies the debate that was had here. You say: "Gauntlet not monk weapon. Flurry bad." I say: "Flurry allowed with unarmed strike. Gauntlet attack unarmed strike. Flurry good."

The RAW are approached from two different directions on the issue. Oh, and forgive the half-orc with an int of 4 speak. I wanted to emphasize how stupid I think all of this is, to begin with. For a question to actually be worth 2+ pages of arguements, at least in my opinion, it must either directly affect my paycheck or my love life. This does neither.

Rule it however the heck you want at home, and treat it as the "Flurry good" for the purposes of the challenge I put forth.
LOL, I'm just arguing to show how retarded D&D is. *mumble* stupid, inconsistent, no sense making game *grumble*

He did specifically state that both types of gauntlets were not monk weapons and not as versatile as a unarmed strikes. So that would certainly imply the designer is a dumb-ass that doesn't want monks wearing gauntlets.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-18, 03:04 AM
And I was not arguing with you on the issue, exactly as I stated I would not.

I merely wanted to correct a misunderstanding, not continue any line of argument.

And since I was making a post I thought I might as well recount the iterations of the FAQ for anyone interested.


Beating will not prevent a dead horse from rising later as an undead. I recommend blessing the corpse, or burning it, if you will, but beating it merely prevents you from spending your time beating things that you CAN gain xp from.
As far as raising? It is my most heartfelt opinion that this particular horse is not of enough value to justify a 5000gp diamond.


Disintegrate. :smallwink:

But sometimes you will be surprised just how much love people seem to be showing for their dead horses. :smallamused:

McMindflayer
2008-01-18, 03:09 AM
Can we get back to the topic of monks kicking a white dragon's butt. I think I made a pretty good one, though if anybody has any ideas on how to make him fly without adding too much more La...

tyckspoon
2008-01-18, 03:09 AM
And here's my monk build that only lacks flight. It has some sense on how to find the dragon, and can deal damage, not only from afar, but when close up.
I even helped nullify the full attack of the dragon - Reverse hand says I get an AoO when my opponent succesfully strikes me., at a-5 penalty. With my gloves, that's a -3 penalty. So I get +20 to my attack, and I use stunning fist. He's stunned and stops his round. And he also takes fire damage and 1d4 force damage.

so this should kick a White dragons butt.
http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=38945

Not bad. I've been wanting to do something with the Enabled Hand monk for a while. I assume you'd use a Mind over Hand use to guarantee that your AoO hits the dragon. What's the DC of your Stunning Fist? The base DC is only 29; does any of your gear or class levels increase that? As is, the dragon has in the area of a 75% chance of saving against it. That seems to be the weakest point of your build; your AC is exactly where it needs to be to force the unbuffed dragon to roll 20s, your saves are (naturally) more than high enough, and your to-hit is favorable by several points.

What caster level did you have the Permanence'd spells provided at? Dispel effects could strip some of your benefits (Especially the Enlarge Person), even at the fairly low caster levels usually provided by dragons.

Talic
2008-01-18, 03:13 AM
And here's my monk build that only lacks flight. It has some sense on how to find the dragon, and can deal damage, not only from afar, but when close up.
I even helped nullify the full attack of the dragon - Reverse hand says I get an AoO when my opponent succesfully strikes me., at a-5 penalty. With my gloves, that's a -3 penalty. So I get +20 to my attack, and I use stunning fist. He's stunned and stops his round. And he also takes fire damage and 1d4 force damage.

so this should kick a White dragons butt.
http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=38945

Not bad on the AoO ability, though you'll need a 14 to hit on that attack, if it's at a -5. I didn't check your save DC on stun, but could the dragon's Fort reliably pass it? Further, if it attacks from outside your reach, wouldn't you not get those attacks? Further, with a 38.5 average damage per hit, and likely only 2 hits landing (the dragon doesn't quite need 20's to hit you, but will likely average about the same in a stand up fight), it seems to be a battle of attrition. As the dragon has greater mobility than you, so at this stage could still retreat if things go badly.

Your spot and listen are rather atrocious. The white dragon could sneak and move silent circles around you, and, at distances over 40 feet, would have a better than average chance to snipe you at a -20 penalty to hide and still remain unseen. Still, the concrete bonuses are rather nice, including a decently high AC, requiring the dragon actually make decent rolls to hit you, a decently high attack bonus, giving you a decent shot of hitting it, and good hp.

Any method of dealing with non-save cold? Whites can breathe underwater, I believe, or at the very least, hold their breath for a very long time. One likely situation would be water tunnels between areas of the lair. Numbingly cold water tunnels. Other environmental cold hazards would exist near a white's lair as well.

Kurald Galain
2008-01-18, 04:16 AM
However, frankly, I'm tired of arguing the point. So get your pithy little response in, flawed and hopelessly incorrect as it will be, and that will be the end of it.


I have ceased to care about your flawed opinions. I know it's fact by RAW, the people reading these statements should also. Your opinion will no longer matter in this thread. Argue your point elsewhere.

Wow, Talic, that was completely uncalled for.

(edit) and so was the nasty private message you sent me in response to this. Such language really has no place in a discussion about game rules.

McMindflayer
2008-01-18, 08:03 AM
In Order:
Actually for Mind over Fist, since I only get 4/day, I was going to use it for slap of forgetfulness or when I need a stunning fist to hit. This will knock out his spells and allow me a chance to stun him.

I don't actually know of any magical ability that increases the DC of the stunning fist. I know of how to increase it via feats. and I know I can increase the number. But I don't how how to increase the save.
Note: I just realized something. May damage is off by 2d6. The Fist of the forest class increases my damage die along the monk's progression. It should knock me up to 2d10. Thu huge makes it 4d8, +improved natural attack makes it 6d8 damage. So I... could spare a feat.

All the Cl's for permancy and the spells themselves are 20. But dispel should be hard with slap of forgetfulness, which knocks out 2d4 spells/spell slots from any wizards repotraire for one day.

Actually, because of the gloves, I not only have a ton of AoO's, but I get a +2 bonus to hit with them. So I only take a -3 to hit. So I need a 12 or higher. Plus, if he does hit me, he gets a nasy shock of 1d6+1d4+7, where 1d6+7 is fire. So it deals 50% more damage. Not only that, but when I frenzy, which I can activate twice and lasts 3+con mod, so 12 rounds. Which increases my dex, +2 unarmed damage, and I get a bite attack at my full AB for 1d6+str. Now admittadly magic fang doesn't work on that. Plus I can flurry with my fists, so I can make 3-5 attacks hitting sicne I will have 3 fist and a bite at my full attack bonus. Add in teh fact that I can use a stunning fist to make my hands fire for one round (I.e. for all attacks.), which deal 50% extra damage...

I didn't actually do my skills. It was 5:30 in thte morning and I wasn't really in the mood to go through all the skill lists and figureing out waht I needed, so I maxed out two and said "meh." I can flesh them out... just not right now.

As for Mobolity, I'm trying to figure that out. Since I would like the ability to fly, but most methods of flight are in boot or cloak form, and those are to help me in other areas. My head and face are clear, and I can lose the Robe of the archmagi. It only increases my saves( which isn't hard to add to antoehr robe.) an additional +1 to Armor(outside of my other things).

I do have resistance 5 to cold damage, and Endure elements to Cold enviroment as well ast he ability to make torches and create 15 foot cones of fire for 5d4(dc 11 save though) and touch attacks that deal 1d6+5 fire 5/day

If things get really rough, I have my scarab of invulnerability that will save me from all damage in a round.

Fenix_of_Doom
2008-01-18, 08:29 AM
Yes, unarmed strike is listed as a simple weapon, and, as such, wizard, druid and monk are NOT proficient in it (and will get -4 malus on attacks).

On the other hand, the monk is apparently considered proficient with unarmed strike (check the flurry tables. No penalty for non-proficiency included).


This makes no sense, a monk can make a flurry with monk weapons as well right? So why does not taking the -4 into account in the table makes the monk "clearly proficient". Don't get me wrong, I think they should be considered proficient, just like every other class, I just don't see the logic in your argument.

Adumbration
2008-01-18, 09:18 AM
Quoth Talic:I make it 37: 33 ranks, +2 Wis, +2 Alertness (and the same for Listen). Which is indeed tough to beat, but still doable. Let's look at the Move Silently, since it's the tougher one to beat:

Dark halfling 19/LA 1
22 ranks
+2 racial
+6 Dark template
+2 Stealthy
+10 Dex (give or take, depending on the build)
+10 competence from Elixir of Sneaking
+2 circumstance from masterwork slippers
+1 minimum roll on d20
55 total

If you make it a Skulk monk, you get something like +15 racial to Move Silently and Hide for the cost of some hitdice and LA (2-3). And if I remember correct - a friend of mine made an assassin character, so I'm not sure if it comes from there instead of racial - you get the ability to hide while running, which is convenient.

You could also use Boots and Cloak of Elvenkind to up it by +5 each.

Chronos
2008-01-18, 08:31 PM
You could also use Boots and Cloak of Elvenkind to up it by +5 each.They don't stack with the +10 each from Elixirs of Hiding and of Sneaking. There are other continuous magic items which give bonuses that high or higher, but elixirs are enough cheaper that the continuous items would probably never pay for themselves (for most, non-dragon enemies, you don't need the extra +10), and they also don't use up item slots.