uh... how about no?

[Chaman]

Dominate person says "Obviously, self-destructive orders are not carried out" so despite pattycake is a harmless game the consequences wouldn't be. So I guess there is not going to be many claping there you know?

[Tempest Fennac]

Would the spell make him forget about the Energy Drain attack? Alternatively, could she convince him that the ight is a different creature?

[TRM]

I think that dominate monster would allow her to order Thanh to play pattycake. In my mind playing a harmless clapping game that would kill him would be along the same lines as ordering him to eat a fish that happened to be poisoned, it would end up hurting him but she could force him to do it under the spell.

my, poorly worded, 2cp

[Chaman]

Would the spell make him forget about the Energy Drain attack? Alternatively, could she convince him that the ight is a different creature?

even if that could happen it wont last after the first touch, you cant convince him the wight "didnt just drained a level from him"

[Chaman]

Dont get me wrong Im all about seeing Haley kick Tsukiko's ass but if the necrophilic B[word] wants to threaten with killing the pali she has to do a lot better

anyway, since haley is hidden tsukiko is vulnerable to SA, so I guess its time to hear the nicest three words set Haley can come up with (no I aint talking about "Consider me yours") I mean "Sneak Attack Bitch (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0396.html)"

[Saph]

No, it's an obviously self-destructive order. At the very least it wouldn't be carried out, and it might well qualify for 'against his nature', giving him a new save against the spell.

Haley might not know that, though, as she probably doesn't have any ranks in Spellcraft.

- Saph

[Kish]

Vaarsuvius was able to Suggest a black dragon become the complete slave of a lizard. Mind-affecting spells are a lot more powerful in OotS than in D&D.

[Freelance Henchman]

She can just order Tanh to stand still holding his hands out.

[Chaman]

She can just order Tanh to stand still holding his hands out.

again, not after the first clap, if hold hands still is in order to get drained levels he can refuse and he should get a new saving throw just because you insist on suggesting that kind of things

[Saph]

Vaarsuvius was able to Suggest a black dragon become the complete slave of a lizard. Mind-affecting spells are a lot more powerful in OotS than in D&D.

True, but he didn't order it to kill itself.

And we know that there are some limits - after all, Belkar wouldn't kill his teammates when charmed, at least not without keeping their loot for himself. :)

- Saph

[OverWilliam]

From the way she said 'walk a mile in their shoes' I get the impression that she is not going to kill Thanh (immediately). She's going to treat him like one of her own undead in hopes of changing his mind. Try not to think too long about that.

...Yup, you're thinking about it now, aren't ya? :smallamused:

[BisectedBrioche]

From the way she said 'walk a mile in their shoes' I get the impression that she is not going to kill Thanh (immediately). She's going to treat him like one of her own undead in hopes of changing his mind. Try not to think too long about that.

...Yup, you're thinking about it now, aren't ya? :smallamused:

Or maybe she was planning to use him to lure out Haley, kill them both and reanimate them as undead?

[OverWilliam]

Yeah, or that too.

[Admiral_Kelly]

...Or Tsykiko could be pulling a clever bluff. Maybe she cannot make the paladin suicide but she can make Haley and friend think she can and will.

[monty]

I think she's just betting against Haley's most likely 0 Spellcraft.

[Barbolanero]

Or maybe not all characters in oots can refer to the rules or even be conscious of them and therefore while Than would feel dizzy but not know that a spell has been drained and therefore continue to play.

[Pastel]

Or maybe by "Pattycake with the wight" she simply meant that she was able to easily kill him?
(Read the "maybe" as "rolleyes")

[monty]

It's a euphemism.

Yeah, now you're thinking about it...:smallbiggrin:

[FujinAkari]

There is nothing inherently harmful about playing pattycake, and as a result, pattycake does not count as an "obviously harmful action. Ordering a charmed person to defend you against an attacking dragon is also allowed by the spell, despite it likely ending as suicide.

[Niknokitueu]

There is nothing inherently harmful about playing pattycake, and as a result, pattycake does not count as an "obviously harmful action. Ordering a charmed person to defend you against an attacking dragon is also allowed by the spell, despite it likely ending as suicide.
In itself, no.
Just as being told to 'take two steps forward' is not an obviously harmful action.
However, if you are standing at a cliff edge, it is an obviously harmful action.
Likewise, playing patty-cake with something you know drains you is obviously harmful. If Tsykiko spent some time trying to persuade him that the 'wight' was actually someone wearing white face-paint, then she would have a chance. As she has referred to them as 'created things', and mentioned them as being undead, and he has already seen one drain Belkar's life force, there is no chance of him being 'bluffed' in this way.

...But as has been mentioned, Haley knows nothing of this, and will act as if Tsykiko's threat is a real possibility.

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

[factotum]

Likewise, playing patty-cake with something you know drains you is obviously harmful.

Well, as I said in the main thread for #517, how do you know Thanh is as up on his knowledge of undead as you clearly are? He might not know Wights drain levels, and as far as we can tell his back was turned when the wight drained Belkar in #515. Sure, he might learn after the first clap that things aren't so good, but even if that's enough to snap him out of it, that still leaves him injured and level drained with a high level Mystic Theurge and a wight still to be dealt with!

[Porthos]

Strange. I seem to recall seeing this debate before when it appeared that someone was asked to do something obviously harmful. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html)

But I must be mistaken. After all, we wouldn't be repeating arguments on things that we have already seen in the comic, now would we? :smalltongue:

[FujinAkari]

Just as being told to 'take two steps forward' is not an obviously harmful action.
However, if you are standing at a cliff edge, it is an obviously harmful action.

Knowing that a wight can drain levels requires a DC 15 Knowledge (Religion) check (I believe, it may be a different kind of knowledge, but every type of creature is tied in with a specific check). As a Knowledge check is REQUIRED to be aware of that information, then by definition it is -not- obvious.


Likewise, playing patty-cake with something you know drains you is obviously harmful. If Tsykiko spent some time trying to persuade him that the 'wight' was actually someone wearing white face-paint, then she would have a chance. As she has referred to them as 'created things', and mentioned them as being undead, and he has already seen one drain Belkar's life force, there is no chance of him being 'bluffed' in this way.

There is no reason to think he saw Belkar get drained, he had his back turned. Additionally, when charmed, you follow simple instructions, not perform complex feats of deductive reasoning. Walking off a cliff is obviously harmful. Pulling a lever that causes a trap door under you to fall out is just harmful, but there is nothing obvious about it. Even if you -know- that that is what the lever does, I would still rule the result to be non-obvious.

[The Extinguisher]

Wait, you mean they aren't actually playing by the rules as written?

When did this happen!

[Spiky]

People like to think of Rich as the DM of OOTS. But he is not. He is more akin to the creator of D&D than a simple DM. So rules are what he makes of it. Comedy being rule #1.

Also, people like to think of OOTS as being based on D&D, including its rules. It is not. It is based on making fun of D&D and its rules.

[vrellum]

It would work for no more than one touch. After he was touched and drained a level the act would be obviously destructive and he would refuse to do it again. So it wouldn't kill him.

[brilliantlight]

If I were DM I would have him obey until he lost a level then he snaps out of it. Even if dominated again he wouldn't do so again as it is now obviously self-destructive.

[Lamech]

I'm pretty sure that actually playing pattycake wouldn't be obeyed for more than one or possibly two levels, assuming of course it is obeyed at all.

Of course, "pattycake" might just have been a funnier way of saying, I'll have the paladin give me his weapon and armor, go to sleep, tie him up and let the wight drain all of his levels.

[David Argall]

Thanh can probably resist the command to play pattycake with the wight. But Tsukiko can easily order him to do something just about as deadly, such as just tie himself up, after which the wight has a lot of fun. So the difference is technical.

Recall this is a 5th level spell, with the name Dominate. That should tell us that the victim is normally helpless. We need to find quite solid reasons for the victims to get out from under.

[Alex Warlorn]

If I were DM I would have him obey until he lost a level then he snaps out of it. Even if dominated again he wouldn't do so again as it is now obviously self-destructive.

Ironically, there are many DMs out there with the same policy.

[sikyon]

Playing pattycake with the wight is not a harmful action, as the wight does not have to drain his levels. He could play patty cake with it all day long if the wight didn't slam attack him.

[monty]

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/the_difference.png

Obviously, he's a scientist.

[NikkTheTrick]

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/the_difference.png

Obviously, he's a scientist.

As a gradiate student in chemistry, I can say that this is 100% correct.

[WarriorTribble]

Knowing that a wight can drain levels requires a DC 15 Knowledge (Religion) check (I believe, it may be a different kind of knowledge, but every type of creature is tied in with a specific check). As a Knowledge check is REQUIRED to be aware of that information, then by definition it is -not- obvious.That is true, but the wights did talk about draining his levels (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0514.html) in earshot, so he already knows.

[sikyon]

Playing pattycake is fine, as long as the wight doesn't slam attack. If he does, then that's not the result of playing pattycake, it's the result of the wight attacking, so there's no break at all. Though he'll stop playing pattycake.

If an order is not self destructive to start with, but then becomes self destructive, then it's not really a self-destructive order. Ie. attacking someone who's been dominated doesn't give them a new save. The order itself, whatever it was, that the person was carrying out was not dangerous until you attacked them.