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Mr.Bookworm
2007-12-31, 04:42 PM
Inspired, obviously, by the worst PrC thread.

I was wondering, what PrCs are the best, in your opinion?

Let me clarify "best" for the purpose of this thread. By "best" I mean PrCs that are both fun to play, and are mechanically sound.

If anyone has a better word, I'm open to changes to the title.

Anyway, I'm a fan of the Alienist, and the Blood Savant. Both are interesting, and fun to play as.

Roderick_BR
2007-12-31, 04:51 PM
People'll claim any fullcaster PrC that gives you full progression.

Other than that, one fave is the War Priest. If you actually read the fluff & the crunch, you'll see it's more a PrC for paladins than clerics, since you get full bab and several spells as spell-like abilities that you could get more going full cleric.

TomTheRat
2007-12-31, 05:10 PM
Despite being mentioned in the worst PrC thread, I'm throwing my vote in for Thief-Acrobat.

Get Roll With The Punches twice a day (level 11+ rogue ability)? check.
Get Improved Evasion? check.
Tumble, Balance at full movement? check.
Climb at half? check.
Charge over rough terrain? (fine, not awesome, but good for mobility) check.
Free +2 to AC, with another +1 when you're being defensive? check.
Get up from prone as a free action, no AOO? check.
Fight without penalty while prone, climbing, or kneeling? check.

Sure, you lose a little sneak attack, and 2 skill points per level, but in terms of maneuverability and defence, it's great.

Shas aia Toriia
2007-12-31, 05:12 PM
Chameleon. A sound mechanical class, and the flavour is absolutely delicious.

Solo
2007-12-31, 05:14 PM
Fatespinner, or the first four levels of it at least. Very flavorful and mechanically sound.

Archmage. Iconic and cool

Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil (How does it *not* lose caster levels?) for being very powerful

Incantrix again, very powerful

Mage of the Arcane Order (well, for sorcerers) it's nice to have as a sorcerer because it gives you greater flexibility with your spells known, even if by just a little.

Shas aia Toriia
2007-12-31, 05:15 PM
One thing though, people are likely to read only the title, not the OP. Therefore it would be wise to stress that first post a bit more.

Mr.Bookworm
2007-12-31, 05:17 PM
Good idea.

*changes*

BardicDuelist
2007-12-31, 05:18 PM
Well, I like Virtuoso and Sublime Chord. Of course I play bards mostly. The Chameleon is a ton of fun to play.

TheGrimace
2007-12-31, 05:18 PM
I adore the Halfling Rock Skipping Champion!

Loremaster.

Frenzied Beserkers are also a hoot.

Occult slayer is pretty well balanced too.

Kaelik
2007-12-31, 05:26 PM
Occult slayer is pretty well balanced too.

Only if by well balanced you mean utter suck. In which case I recommend Monk to get into it. That way you can pile the "balance" on top of itself.

RandomFellow
2007-12-31, 05:28 PM
Pale Master. Being able to punch people so hard they fall over and rise as zombies under your control rocks.

If you want a massive undead army. Otherwise, it is kind of marginal.


I also like Thrallherd and Great Captain.

I like building Armies rather than just a single character. =) Can you tell?

The Great Skenardo
2007-12-31, 05:33 PM
I like the Green Star Adept. I know that it's quite expensive to progress and dependent upon plot, but there's just something about gradually turning into a golem that appeals to me, and I've made more than one effective melee character using it. A little Power Attack, a little Improved Critical, and suddenly the strength increase and the natural armor makes a Wizard/ToB character quite interesting to play, as well as distinctive!

Rachel Lorelei
2007-12-31, 05:46 PM
I like the Green Star Adept. I know that it's quite expensive to progress and dependent upon plot, but there's just something about gradually turning into a golem that appeals to me, and I've made more than one effective melee character using it. A little Power Attack, a little Improved Critical, and suddenly the strength increase and the natural armor makes a Wizard/ToB character quite interesting to play, as well as distinctive!

Fun to play and mechanically sound. Green Star Adept definitely isn't the latter.

I like Chameleon and Unseen Seer.

Mr.Bookworm
2007-12-31, 05:48 PM
Yeah, I also meant PrCs that don't screw you over for playing as them.

Green Star Adepts definitly fit into this category.

Newtkeeper
2007-12-31, 05:55 PM
For great fluff supported by adequate crunch, I like the Horizon Walker. To boldly go where no one has gone before, and all that.


Archmage is definitely up there. Perhaps not *the* most powerful PrC for wizard, but it has style. It's all "I'm a Wizard, man!".

Xefas
2007-12-31, 06:09 PM
Dunno if I think it's the "best" but I've always liked the Apostle of Peace.

It makes a hellish nightmare for PCs who like to go around smashing stuff to solve their problems if you can pump the DCs of their calming aura or shatter skin thingy. Not to mention freakishly powerful Hold Person for great justice, following by a Coup de Grace throat punch to unconsciousness.

Great way to remind players they aren't the biggest fish around without killing them.

Iku Rex
2007-12-31, 06:09 PM
Neither the Occult Slayer nor the Green Star Adept are notably underpowered. I don't understand why anyone would think otherwise.

Newtkeeper
2007-12-31, 06:16 PM
Neither the Occult Slayer nor the Green Star Adept are notably underpowered. I don't understand why anyone would think otherwise.


Well, compared to a fighter, or even a barbarian, they can certainly shine. But a wizard with full caster levels (i.e., every class or PrC level advances his spellcasting as a wizard) can outshine them by far, in just about anything. I agree, however, that this isn't much of an argument, as a wizard with full caster levels outshines everything.

In general, giving up caster levels is bad for your power. Greenstar adept, however, has one very important fluff bonus- immortality! And really, who doesn't want that?

Hyfigh
2007-12-31, 06:29 PM
Chameleon. A sound mechanical class, and the flavour is absolutely delicious.

I agree with this mostly. While I love the class and all it offers, I absolutely despise that none of it's class features or abilities allow it to qualify for feats or other PrC's. This means you can't obtain metamagic feats, item creation feats (if you need to meet CL), reserve feats, etc. I know it's easy enough, and completely reasonable to bypass this rule, but following RAW for this drives me nuts.

Solo
2007-12-31, 06:31 PM
Well, compared to a fighter, or even a barbarian, they can certainly shine. But a wizard with full caster levels (i.e., every class or PrC level advances his spellcasting as a wizard) can outshine them by far, in just about anything. I agree, however, that this isn't much of an argument, as a wizard with full caster levels outshines everything.

In general, giving up caster levels is bad for your power. Greenstar adept, however, has one very important fluff bonus- immortality! And really, who doesn't want that?

Reach level 20 and become a lich or just start off as an Elan

Either way, you 'd get immortality without becoming addicted to space crack.

Conjurer
2007-12-31, 06:42 PM
I'm a fan of the Master Specialist and the archmage.

Master Specialists give a nice touch to those who choose specialization and Archmage is just very flavourfull.

Shas aia Toriia
2007-12-31, 06:43 PM
Reach level 20 and become a lich or just start off as an Elan.

Why is it that everytime I hear somebody talk about Elan's I think about an entire species of our dimwitted bard? :smalleek:

*shudders*

Riffington
2007-12-31, 06:46 PM
Reach level 20 and become a lich or just start off as an Elan

Either way, you 'd get immortality without becoming addicted to space crack.

I'm sorry, did you just suggest that it's better to kill yourself and put your soul in an unholy gem than to shoot up a little kryptonite?

Shas aia Toriia
2007-12-31, 06:48 PM
I agree with this mostly. While I love the class and all it offers, I absolutely despise that none of it's class features or abilities allow it to qualify for feats or other PrC's. This means you can't obtain metamagic feats, item creation feats (if you need to meet CL), reserve feats, etc. I know it's easy enough, and completely reasonable to bypass this rule, but following RAW for this drives me nuts.

Agreed. I've always found that as a bit odd. I guess just house-rule in that you can take the feat, but you don't gain the benefits unless you're in the proper class techniques.

Signmaker
2007-12-31, 06:51 PM
Ruathar.

Let's see...

Elfiness? Ding.
Free magical item? Ding.
Lifespan increase? Ding.
Full Caster Progression? Always a ding.

Being able to win a CR10 Encounter, saving an Elf's life by using your own, or performing a great deed to the elven community in to the current roleplay to fufill the prereq? Priceless.

Also in the midst, Invisible Blade and Master Thrower are quite potent for the dagger-obsessed, and the prideful arrogance of the Invisible Blade with the haughtiness of a Master Thrower is always a fun topic.

On a more darkish note, Whisperknife. Not exactly the greatest PrC (Take plenty of levels to actually utilize well, and 10th level's practically useless), but the halfling revenge angle is fun.

Xefas
2007-12-31, 06:52 PM
I'm sorry, did you just suggest that it's better to kill yourself and put your soul in an unholy gem than to shoot up a little kryptonite?

I hear anti-drug commercials like that all the time.

Signmaker
2007-12-31, 06:57 PM
I hear anti-drug commercials like that all the time.

:xykon: "Lichdom: My anti-drug"

The Great Skenardo
2007-12-31, 06:58 PM
I stand by Green Star Adept; You might not be able to go toe-to-toe with Captain Optimised, but the abilities complement well any arcane/martial class such as Duskblade or Hexblade, if you don't mind dipping one level in rogue to fulfill the skill requirements.
Anyways.

Another fun PrC is Nature's Warrior.

WrstDmEvr
2007-12-31, 06:59 PM
Why is it that everytime I hear somebody talk about Elan's I think about an entire species of our dimwitted bard? :smalleek:

*shudders*

I feel your pain.:smallbiggrin:

Icewalker
2007-12-31, 07:00 PM
Well I got Frostburn for Christmas, and, while I'm not sure of the balance, the story around Winterhaunts of Iborighu is awesome. Probably going to have a BBEG one.

Solo
2007-12-31, 07:01 PM
I'm sorry, did you just suggest that it's better to kill yourself and put your soul in an unholy gem than to shoot up a little kryptonite?
Yes I did.




Hippy.

Drascin
2007-12-31, 07:04 PM
Master Specialist is very cool, and helps add a tad of flavor to the individual mage.

Jade Phoenix Mage is awesome, and from the same book, Shadow Sun Ninja is neat.

In the same vein, Anima Mage is also cool, though I tend to reflavor it a bit on my campaigns.

Psionics has some nice material as well - Pyrokinetic, Thrallherd and Elocator are favorites at my table, plus pretty much every one in Untapped Potential (special mention to the Sighted Seeker for being so much concentrated awesome)

Hasivel
2007-12-31, 07:06 PM
I like Shadowdancers both for flavor and crunch. They're not highly optimized but not as bad as many people think. The thing is, due to a very poorly worded bit, many people only give a Shadowdancer one shadow. In fact, every time it says "Summon Shadow" you don't just get more HD for your shadow, a whole 'nother shadow (with the bonus HD) pops up and joins you too. At 10th level you've got 3 and epic Shadowdancers have 4 or more shadows at their sides.

I recently played a 10th level Shadowdancer. It rocked on a grand scale. When the BBEG showed up I Hid in plain sight and my shadows (Who I equipped with the spring attack tree) popped up from the floor, drained him, and then sank back into the floor where he couldn't touch them as a single action. 3d6 str gone every single round with no chance of counter attack, which is pretty bad for a gish wizard fighter. And when he got smart and reserved an action to fry the shadows with his last points of str I sneak-attacked him in the kidneys with a rapier instead.

Kaelik
2007-12-31, 07:09 PM
Neither the Occult Slayer nor the Green Star Adept are notably underpowered. I don't understand why anyone would think otherwise.

1) Occult Slayer is severely underpowered. Continuing your original class, whether it be Fighter/Barbarian/Rogue/Ranger/Paladin/or even Ninja makes for a better character. Everything they get can be obtained by other classes better.

2) Green Star Adept could make a decent Gish, under some circumstances. But the problem is you pay through the but for crap. The full caster level and half spell progression is nice, but Abjurant Champion/Eldritch Knight and other PrCs are better for it. A higher CL, better spells, more HP. The benefits just don't pay out, you get fewer spells and less HP for being slightly harder to hit and having some DR. Just the Money for the Starmetal could buy you the same thing at the cost of no class levels. Maybe if they got full Construct immunities it would be better, but still crappy.

Jack_Simth
2007-12-31, 07:15 PM
I agree with this mostly. While I love the class and all it offers, I absolutely despise that none of it's class features or abilities allow it to qualify for feats or other PrC's. This means you can't obtain metamagic feats, item creation feats (if you need to meet CL), reserve feats, etc. I know it's easy enough, and completely reasonable to bypass this rule, but following RAW for this drives me nuts.
The trick to getting around that is to use a Bard (or similar) to enter, then take Practiced Spellcaster(Bard). About the only actual crafting feat you'll want is Craft Rod - so that you can use the flexible feat slot for metamagic feats, and craft the metamagic rods.

Worira
2007-12-31, 07:16 PM
I like Shadowdancers both for flavor and crunch. They're not highly optimized but not as bad as many people think. The thing is, due to a very poorly worded bit, many people only give a Shadowdancer one shadow. In fact, every time it says "Summon Shadow" you don't just get more HD for your shadow, a whole 'nother shadow (with the bonus HD) pops up and joins you too. At 10th level you've got 3 and epic Shadowdancers have 4 or more shadows at their sides.


Uh... No. This just isn't the case at all.
Every third level gained by the shadowdancer adds +2 HD (and the requisite base attack and base save bonus increases) to her shadow companion.


Nowhere does it mention summoning more.

Bag_of_Holding
2007-12-31, 07:18 PM
I really like Walker in the Waste from Sandstorm; it's not overpoweringly broken, yet it is very flavourful and fun to play. One thing to note though; how does one make a salt mummy? I'm guessing it means you can create Salt Mummy instead of normal Mummy via Mummify spell, but it doesn't specify that (not even the monster entry from MM3) :smallannoyed:

Newtkeeper
2007-12-31, 07:20 PM
Reach level 20 and become a lich or just start off as an Elan

Either way, you 'd get immortality without becoming addicted to space crack.


A lich's problem is the annoying adventurers who keep knocking at your door- that and the LA costing you, in the long run, about as many spell levels.

An elan's is that, fluff-wise (and really, if you care about dieing of old age, you probably care about fluff), a man does not choose his race- what of all those humans who want immortality-, and, while one can become an Elan, it removes your memories.

Anyway, if you are a caster, there are plenty of ways to make easy money. Casting Wall of Iron and selling scrap metal is just the start. The lost caster levels, admittedly, are a annoying, but you're a *caster*. Even if, at level 20, you only cast as a level 15 wizard, you outshine everyone else.

And it's not an addiction! I can quit whenever I want, I just don't want to!:wink:

Signmaker
2007-12-31, 07:30 PM
Immortality?

Anyone tried Killoren for that one? Be oooone with naaature, plus health benefits.

How's that for hippiness. =P

Hasivel
2007-12-31, 07:39 PM
Uh... No. This just isn't the case at all.

Nowhere does it mention summoning more.
Sigh, you found the poorly worded bit I mentioned, and are taking it at face value instead of bothering to do the slightest bit of research. Let's cite the proof I'm right, shall we?

1. The Epic Shadowdancer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/prestigeClassProgressions.htm#epicShadowdancer), which I already mentioned in the previous post. Notice that it's Summon Shadow has been properly labeled, as the non-epic wasn't. Why, strangely, does the Epic Shadowdancer suddenly get 4 shadows with 13HD each and another shadow every Summon Shadow point? If the non-epic Shadowdancer also got one it would form a perfect pattern wouldn't it? 3 Shadows pre-epic, a fourth shadow when you go epic, and it goes up from there.

2. The Wizards of the Coast Website (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20000101e) where we find Ryershil: Tiefling Shadowdancer. The important line? In version 3 (as 6th-level Shadowdancer), Ryershil has two shadow companions. Note that this isn't a rewrite or a special character or even eratta, Wizards policy has always been to give Shadowdancers multiple shadows.

Shadowdancers get, and always have, multiple shadow pals to fight with. As long as the DM realizes that only a typo makes it seem otherwise the Shadowdancer is playable, if not exactly almighty. Only if you look at the shallow surface and don't bother to do any digging can you conclude that the shadowdancer gets only one shadow, at which point he's uselessly weak.

Necromas
2007-12-31, 07:41 PM
Chameleon. A sound mechanical class, and the flavour is absolutely delicious.

I'll have to second that.

Signmaker
2007-12-31, 07:43 PM
Rawr, I'm right

Second link is the same as the first.

And it's not so much as poorly worded but entirely omitted.

The_Snark
2007-12-31, 07:53 PM
Havsiel: The Epic-level Handbook is 3.0, and not all of it has been brought up to date. Similarly, the article you're meaning to reference is from January in 2000, a few years before 3.5 came out. In the 3.5 Shadowdancer description, there's absolutely nothing to indicate that they get multiple shadows; every reference to the shadow companion is singular. I think the shadowdancer has been the victim of edition changes.

Even if we go by the older version, keep in mind these shadows aren't especially durable even with the bonus HD, you lose experience every time one dies, and they can't be replaced for a month.

I_am_an_undead
2007-12-31, 07:59 PM
Second link is the same as the first.

And it's not so much as poorly worded but entirely omitted.

I think he's talking about the table. The epic Shadowdancer's table, at level 12 for example, says "Summon shadow (four of 9 HD each), shadow jump (320 ft.)". Strangely, it isn't written in the normal shadowdancer entry

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-12-31, 08:00 PM
2) Green Star Adept could make a decent Gish, under some circumstances. But the problem is you pay through the but for crap. The full caster level and half spell progression is nice, but Abjurant Champion/Eldritch Knight and other PrCs are better for it. A higher CL, better spells, more HP. The benefits just don't pay out, you get fewer spells and less HP for being slightly harder to hit and having some DR. Just the Money for the Starmetal could buy you the same thing at the cost of no class levels. Maybe if they got full Construct immunities it would be better, but still crappy.

Umm... you DO get full Construct immunities with GSA, except mind-affecting, which you can get elsewhere.

Krimm_Blackleaf
2007-12-31, 08:00 PM
I'm rather fond of the Jade Phoenix Mage, but then again I have a bias for ToB and gishes of most sorts.

There's a lot of homebrew stuff around here that I'm really fond of, particularly the works of The Demented One and The Vorpal Tribble.

Signmaker
2007-12-31, 08:01 PM
I think he's talking about the table. The epic Shadowdancer's table, at level 12 for example, says "Summon shadow (four of 9 HD each), shadow jump (320 ft.)". Strangely, it isn't written in the normal shadowdancer entry

Which is what I meant by 'Entirely Omitted'.

Frankly, I don't know which theory is correct, so forgive me for attempting to have a point in posting this.

Hasivel
2007-12-31, 08:29 PM
Second link is the same as the first.

And it's not so much as poorly worded but entirely omitted.My apologies if I've somehow offended you with my post. It was not intended to do so.

I've fixed the typo that make the links the same. Quite odd.

If you want to rule that the multiple shadows are a DM ruling so be it. So are all rules. However allowing the multiple shadows does make a Shadowdancer a playable and fun character. Reducing them to one causes the Shadowdancer to turn into a gimp.

Shadows are indeed still vulnerable even with those extra HD. The spring attack tree is pretty much a must for keeping them safe under cover.

Signmaker
2007-12-31, 08:34 PM
My apologies if I've somehow offended you with my post. It was not intended to do so.

I've fixed the typo that make the links the same. Quite odd.

If you want to rule that the multiple shadows are a DM ruling so be it. So are all rules. However allowing the multiple shadows does make a Shadowdancer a playable and fun character. Reducing them to one causes the Shadowdancer to turn into a gimp.

Shadows are indeed still vulnerable even with those extra HD. The spring attack tree is pretty much a must for keeping them safe under cover.

I wasn't offended at all, actually. Just trying to add my own silliness to the fray.

Perhaps Multiple Shadows are actually an add-on from going Epic? Though, that wouldn't make sense with your second bit of evidence.

Hasivel
2007-12-31, 09:10 PM
Actually I think the multiple shadows makes perfect sense on the regular Shadowdancer table, particularly when put next to other classes.

At first and second level the fighter table says "Bonus Feat." Does that mean at second level you have the same feat as at first? No, you get a new, second bonus feat there even though it uses the singular "bonus feat." A druid has only one animal companion, and only one entry on the table for "animal companion" even though the animal companion gets bonus HD in a similar way to the shadow companion.

And thus when the shadow companion table indicates that you can "Summon Shadow" it doesn't mean that you're summoning the same shadow you already summoned, you get to summon a new shadow companion and all shadows gain new HD according to the table.

Kaelik
2007-12-31, 10:26 PM
Actually I think the multiple shadows makes perfect sense on the regular Shadowdancer table, particularly when put next to other classes.

At first and second level the fighter table says "Bonus Feat." Does that mean at second level you have the same feat as at first? No, you get a new, second bonus feat there even though it uses the singular "bonus feat." A druid has only one animal companion, and only one entry on the table for "animal companion" even though the animal companion gets bonus HD in a similar way to the shadow companion.

And thus when the shadow companion table indicates that you can "Summon Shadow" it doesn't mean that you're summoning the same shadow you already summoned, you get to summon a new shadow companion and all shadows gain new HD according to the table.

Read the text. Text trumps the Table. They get one Shadow. That's all. Both your examples are 3.0. Change happens.


Umm... you DO get full Construct immunities with GSA, except mind-affecting, which you can get elsewhere.

That isn't full immunities. Poison and Disease are incredibly easy to get. And the Death effects can be achieved so much better by becoming undead, then you at least get mind immunity. Keep in mind you are giving up your only shot at full immunity (Mindblank) by taking full levels.

Ultimately you still payed gp to be a gish with fewer hitpoints and fewer spells.

Belteshazzar
2007-12-31, 10:27 PM
Sand Shaper is pretty good. Of course you have to take your environment (sand or waste) with you but if you have spellcasting this shouldn't be a problem. Especially with your newly expanded spell list.

Forrestfire
2007-12-31, 10:38 PM
I've always thought that Heir of Syberys was a very good PRC. Specifically, the marks of making and handling. For the mark of making, you get a 2/day True Creation without experience costs, and with the mark of handling, you get awaken. It's also really fun to play.

Cuddly
2007-12-31, 11:07 PM
Warforged Juggernaught.

"Quiet, fleshling."

SadisticFishing
2007-12-31, 11:20 PM
Anima Mage, Acolyte of the Ego, Arcane Hierophant, Archmage.

Wow... All of them started with A O_O

Kaelik
2007-12-31, 11:54 PM
The thing I accidentally said in the other thread:

Why is IotSFV not one of the best PrCs? It is mechanically sound and flavorful. Sure it's more powerful then the average, but the Wizard class is more powerful then the Average. If you aren't toning yourself down, you'll be too powerful anyway. If you are, then you can make IotSFV fit into a party just fine. In fact, IotSFV's nice Flavor tones down Wizards for you. Be a counterspell focused Wizard, or a protection based buffer.

Sure you won't ever die, but you don't want to anyway, and this way you don't have to upstage the party.

Talya
2008-01-01, 12:03 AM
Dervish. It's lost some of its lustre since giving pure melee types other ways to make full attacks while moving, but I still love it. It's mechanically decent, as far as melee classes go, and the flavor of it is just wonderful. And I mean as intended, with the dual scimitars as light weapons, not the big power-attacking (and probably more effective) dervish weilding a 2h reach weapon. It also stacks nicely with fun builds involving some intense (but logical, fluffwise) multiclassing.

Heartwarder. FR-specific PrC based on the Goddess Sune (Faiths & Pantheons.) Makes sorcerors a whole lot of amazing fun. Full caster progression for any arcane or divine spellcasting class of your choice, 3/4 BAB, two good saves (Fort, Will), some nifty freebies (greater spell focus: enchantment, spell penetration), and +5 worth of inherent bonuses to Charisma. Costs some highly un-optimized feat choices to get in, though.

Cuddly
2008-01-01, 12:06 AM
The thing I accidentally said in the other thread:

Why is IotSFV not one of the best PrCs? It is mechanically sound and flavorful. Sure it's more powerful then the average, but the Wizard class is more powerful then the Average. If you aren't toning yourself down, you'll be too powerful anyway. If you are, then you can make IotSFV fit into a party just fine. In fact, IotSFV's nice Flavor tones down Wizards for you. Be a counterspell focused Wizard, or a protection based buffer.

Sure you won't ever die, but you don't want to anyway, and this way you don't have to upstage the party.

If you like the Care Bear Rainbow Power flavor, sure. Otherwise, it's really, really stupid. So stupid, I can only see powergamers playing it.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-01-01, 02:02 AM
Master Specialist, Arch Mage, Thaumaturgist, Mage of the Arcane Order and the Loremaster. Ultimate Magus is pretty powerful mechanically. Slayer for Psions. Sand Shapers for Sorcerers (especially Kobolds). The Fiend Blooded PRC and MotAO are both interesting for sorcerers.

Solo
2008-01-01, 05:01 AM
A lich's problem is the annoying adventurers who keep knocking at your door- that and the LA costing you, in the long run, about as many spell levels.



That's why you hold off lichdom until level 20, which is the cap for any non-epic adventure.

If you're going epic, yo don't need to bother with finding immortality; chances are, immortality will find you!

If adventurers, come, be sure to welcome them in and offer them cookies.

Chances are, they will like you better than the Paladin leading and join with you.

If all goes right, the Paladin will then make the fatal error of mistaking the elf in the team for a woman, get thrown out of the tower window into a pool filled with decorative koi, and you will find yourself with a new group of adventuring buddies.



If you like the Care Bear Rainbow Power flavor, sure. Otherwise, it's really, really stupid. So stupid, I can only see powergamers playing it.


But the Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil is simply fabulous!

Chronicled
2008-01-01, 05:10 AM
That's why you hold off lichdom until level 20, which is the cap for any non-epic adventure.

If you're going epic, yo don't need to bother with finding immortality; chances are, immortality will find you!

If adventurers, come, be sure to welcome them in and offer them cookies.

Chances are, they will like you better than the Paladin leading and join with you.

If all goes right, the Paladin will then make the fatal error of mistaking the elf in the team for a woman, get thrown out of the tower window into a pool filled with decorative koi, and you will find yourself with a new group of adventuring buddies.

A fellow former reader of Mind Flayed, I see. A pity that it's stopped.

Xefas
2008-01-01, 05:22 AM
If you like the Care Bear Rainbow Power flavor, sure. Otherwise, it's really, really stupid. So stupid, I can only see powergamers playing it.

I always imagined it more as a Skittles-based class. Something like: "Taste the rainbow, bitch!" right before the attacker bursts into flame and disintegrates.

Treguard
2008-01-01, 07:43 AM
Any love for Champion of Corellon Larethian? I thinks it's a little bit sexy personally.

Talya
2008-01-01, 08:27 AM
Any love for Champion of Corellon Larethian? I thinks it's a little bit sexy personally.

2 levels of it are part of one of my favorite dervish builds.


That said, yes, it's sexy, even on its own. Fully armored, dexterity based, mobile juggernaut is rather fun.

ghost_warlock
2008-01-01, 10:32 AM
My favorite PrCs: shadowcraft mage, dread witch, nightmare spinner, master of shadow, daggerspell mage (starting to see a trend?), and wild mage.

Some may not be the best cruch-wise, but I enjoy the flavor of these and they aren't as bad as many other PrCs out there. :smallsmile:

Iku Rex
2008-01-01, 10:39 AM
1) Occult Slayer is severely underpowered. Continuing your original class, whether it be Fighter/Barbarian/Rogue/Ranger/Paladin/or even Ninja makes for a better character. Everything they get can be obtained by other classes better.That's nonsense. In addition to the "minor" abilities, like nondetection, +1d6 damage against most major opponents, and a +3 unnamed bonus on all saves against magical attacks, Occult Slayers get some very powerful abilities.

At level 2 they get spell turning 1/day (2/day at level 4). Fortunately that ability has a price - it's a +5 armor ability ("reflecting") and would normally only be available at high levels (15+). Occult Slayers get it for free around character level 7. Yikes.

Then, at level 5 they get immunity to mind-affecting effects. That's the kind of thing high level casters, with Will as their primary save, happily spend high level spell slots (mind blank) to accomplish. Getting it at character level 10 as a melee character is borderline broken.

2) Green Star Adept could make a decent Gish, under some circumstances. But the problem is you pay through the but for crap. The full caster level and half spell progression is nice, but Abjurant Champion/Eldritch Knight and other PrCs are better for it. A higher CL, better spells, more HP. The benefits just don't pay out, you get fewer spells and less HP for being slightly harder to hit and having some DR. Just the Money for the Starmetal could buy you the same thing at the cost of no class levels. Maybe if they got full Construct immunities it would be better, but still crappy.A +6 unnamed bonus to Str for a melee character is "crap". Permanent DR 10/admanatine is "crap". Darkvision, low-light vision, +4 [correction: +6] natural armor, endless list of immunities - all "crap" I take it?

There is no way to get that for 10 000 gp. Even if you factor in a little extra for the starmetal (which the "adaption" section suggests can be replaced with almost any hard substance) you're way off budget.

Yes, you lose some caster levels comparted to a full caster, but a better way of looking at it is that you gain caster levels compared to a non-caster.

It's greatest weakness is the loss of a Con score at level 10 if you choose to finish the PrC, but you get a lot in return.

Prophaniti
2008-01-01, 11:08 AM
The only character I've really loved playing in a PrC was my dwarf Cleric/Warpriest. I loved being a melee-focused character who would occasionally smite foes with the might of Moradin (Harm, flamestrike, ect). I had a couple people complain that I should have focused more on healing, being the party's only cleric, but I just point out- Nobody died on my watch, which is more than the Healer can say!:smalltongue: Granted the only deaths then were in situations where an already wounded character takes enough damage that they're down around -50hp, but still...

shaka gl
2008-01-01, 12:15 PM
Im running a gampaign based on Frostburn, and I think most PrCs there are awesome:

Stormsinger Storm-themed class for bards. Resistance to Electricity, full caster progression and Thunderstrike are great.

Disciple of Thrym Predicting the end of the world is always fun. This PrC actually made my players run for their lives. Immunity to fire, full BAB and nifty spells (including frostburn, shivering touch, stoneskin and wall of ice, among other).

Frost Mage Full caster progression, natural armor, piercing cold feat for free and Resistance to Cold at the cost of 1 feat, 1 maxed skill and surviving for 24 hours in the cold? Yes, please.

Winterhaunt of Iborighu Already mentioned earlier here. Nice class.

Rimefire Witch Not great, but full caster progression, rimefire bolt and word of recall are kinda nice. Also, a Rimefire Eidolon is a powerful ally at low levels.

Besides Frostburn, I read Spellwarp Sniper recently, and it seemed pretty cool to me (im already making a Whisper Gnome with that PrC for me).

marjan
2008-01-01, 12:47 PM
I always liked CW Kensai. I don't like equipment dependancy so anything that at least partialy removes it is fine by me. I also like Unseen Seer and most of gish PrCs.

Solo
2008-01-01, 03:24 PM
I always imagined it more as a Skittles-based class. Something like: "Taste the rainbow, bitch!" right before the attacker bursts into flame and disintegrates.

You, sir, win.


That quote was simply fabulous.

Shraik
2008-01-01, 03:36 PM
I personally like Cryokineticist and Primeval.
Crykineticist you can walk on air when its old.
Primeval lets you turn into a dinosaur :smallbiggrin:

VeisuItaTyhjyys
2008-01-01, 03:42 PM
Reach level 20 and become a lich or just start off as an Elan

Either way, you 'd get immortality without becoming addicted to space crack.

This brings up the Greenstar's other massive fluff bonus: Space Crack.

WrstDmEvr
2008-01-01, 04:45 PM
A +6 unnamed bonus to Str for a melee character is "crap". Permanent DR 10/admanatine is "crap". Darkvision, low-light vision, +4 natural armor, endless list of immunities - all "crap" I take it?


Minor nitpick: Its actually +6

CactusAir
2008-01-01, 07:53 PM
Unseen Seer.

+9000
Arcane trickter was gimped, but Unseen Seer is awesome, and makes rogue casters capable enough to stand up to other caster types.

I also second Virtuoso, Master Specialist, and Sublime chord.

I can't believe no one has mentioned the Divine Oracle. It's just about the best PrC for wizard in a cheese-restricted game, while it's capstone ability is a lifesaver in a high-cheese game. Plus, it makes an awesome 2 or 4 level dip.





Besides Frostburn, I read Spellwarp Sniper recently, and it seemed pretty cool to me (im already making a Whisper Gnome with that PrC for me).

Spellwarp sniper is a trap... unless you have dragon magic and are a sorceror in which case, it suddenly becomes great fun with Wings of Flurry.

It does NOT go with whisper gnome and the -CHA.

If you like raygunning, Unseen Seer/Archmage is your best bet for a wizard.

Zeal
2008-01-01, 08:17 PM
I'm personally a big fan of the Stormlord (Complete Divine). Great for a weather and storm based cleric.

seedjar
2008-01-01, 08:19 PM
Flavor-wise, I like the Swiftblade from this wizards.com article:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327
I also got a big kick out of Rich's Halfling Rock-Skipping Champion:
http://www.giantitp.com/articles/CsORDNEyp2GRLIhacLj.html
So far as published stuff goes, I thought Seeker of the Misty Isle from Complete Divine was kind of cool. Too many dead levels, if you ask me, but it's got some nice features and gives non-cleric divine casters access to real teleportation magic. (Wild Shape + Travel domain ability = rockin'.) I don't really know too many PrCs though, so it's hard for me to say that any of these are 'best' in their respective niches. Still, they stood out to me.
~Joe

Fawsto
2008-01-02, 02:36 AM
If Kensai could get a full BAB progression it would be cheesy...

d10 HP, 4+int skill points, almost 4 free +10 weapon (c'mon, by lvl 15 who has such thing as 200k GP to use in a single item?) that you can re-enchant (since there is not in the book that says this class cannot spend another XP pool to enchant it again), gets some NICE class features... Damn, just Max Concentration and you'll get almost infinite strg Gish... (By now I am going for kensai and it is my maxed skill), you can get your concentration to become your reflex save, meaning that I am maxing this before you guys can say "Half Damage!", you can be the group's face (+ level on all social skills), and you, by level 10, automaticaly give your friends a +1 to attacks and some skill checks.

This PrC is worth of ToB if I can say.

Also, It can be a nice archer combo.

Talic
2008-01-02, 03:01 AM
Elemental Savant? After all, who wouldn't give up one l'il caster level to become an elemental? Combine with Elemental immunity to lose your vulnerability, and everyone should be having some tasty fun.

marjan
2008-01-02, 03:06 AM
Elemental Savant? After all, who wouldn't give up one l'il caster level to become an elemental? Combine with Elemental immunity to lose your vulnerability, and everyone should be having some tasty fun.

Yes, that one is nice. The thing that hurts me most is that every elemental spell is of the same type as their chosen element. Still it is interesting class.

Armads
2008-01-02, 03:08 AM
That's nonsense. In addition to the "minor" abilities, like nondetection, +1d6 damage against most major opponents, and a +3 unnamed bonus on all saves against magical attacks, Occult Slayers get some very powerful abilities.

At level 2 they get spell turning 1/day (2/day at level 4). Fortunately that ability has a price - it's a +5 armor ability ("reflecting") and would normally only be available at high levels (15+). Occult Slayers get it for free around character level 7. Yikes.

Then, at level 5 they get immunity to mind-affecting effects. That's the kind of thing high level casters, with Will as their primary save, happily spend high level spell slots (mind blank) to accomplish. Getting it at character level 10 as a melee character is borderline broken.

Spell Turning takes a free action to activate it. Which means, if you don't win initiative, you're screwed. Also, it's twice per day, which means, 2 encounters per day. And Mind Blank lasts 24 hours, so high level spellcasters expend just 1 slot (and melee guys they could take the funny feat from Exemplars of Evil or Elder Evils that gives immunity to mind affecting effects at the cost of -4 to wisdom (which isn't really important for fighters or barbarians anyway).

Ganurath
2008-01-02, 03:15 AM
Yes, that one is nice. The thing that hurts me most is that every elemental spell is of the same type as their chosen element. Still it is interesting class.Energy Admixture (Sonic) or use spells that don't deal energy damage, like magic missile or a save or suck. Even if you do go pure energy blaster, though, it's worth it to get the air elemental's movement mode at tenth level without magic. Being able to fly of your inate ability... the RP potential and fluff is nigh irresistable.

Of course, that's assuming you don't go Green Star Adept as a route to immortality, eventually getting into Epic Spellcasting, creating a Genesis/Time Stop combo to create an accelerated alternaplane where you can rule for millenia/minutes. Getting bored? Leave for a day, then come back after you're a myth and reclaim godhood.

Talic
2008-01-02, 03:16 AM
Spell Turning takes a free action to activate it. Which means, if you don't win initiative, you're screwed. Also, it's twice per day, which means, 2 encounters per day.

If you're getting hit by an "I win initiative, Save or Die, Sucka", there's not much that WILL save you.

Justiciar... Bring 'em in alive, it's a good concept.

Crypt Lord... Alternate ways to Lich, good stuff... and Full casting progression. It's like Dragon Disciple, without the suck.

Armads
2008-01-02, 03:19 AM
Eh? Where's Crypt Lord from?

Yeril
2008-01-02, 03:28 AM
I always imagined it more as a Skittles-based class. Something like: "Taste the rainbow, bitch!" right before the attacker bursts into flame and disintegrates.

Wow, Simply Wow.

Talic
2008-01-02, 05:38 AM
Eh? Where's Crypt Lord from?

Originally in Relics & Rituals, a Scarred Lands Supplement.

Reprinted in Ultimate Prestige Classes.

As you progress, you gain rebuke/command undead, full arcane progression, nonintelligent undead ignore you, you can eventually cast any transmutation spell that changes living things as a necromancy spell, with ghoulish looking effects (Bull's Strength gives you huge rotting muscles, etc)... At level 10, you make a half-price phylactery, and when you next die, POOF, you're a lich.

Penguinizer
2008-01-02, 05:47 AM
Hmm, let's see, I tend to like the Bloodclaw Master. Can you say RIP AND TEAR!

Seriously, it's like they wanted it to be like that...

There are also some other prc's I like but I can't remember them at this time.

Talic
2008-01-02, 05:52 AM
Energy Admixture (Sonic) or use spells that don't deal energy damage, like magic missile or a save or suck. Even if you do go pure energy blaster, though, it's worth it to get the air elemental's movement mode at tenth level without magic. Being able to fly of your inate ability... the RP potential and fluff is nigh irresistable.

I wasn't aware the Substitution/Admixture feats could be chosen for Sonic.

Iku Rex
2008-01-02, 01:01 PM
Spell Turning takes a free action to activate it. Which means, if you don't win initiative, you're screwed. Also, it's twice per day, which means, 2 encounters per day.You don't cast the spell turning spell 2/day, you "cause a spell or spell-like ability targeted against you to rebound onto the originator as a free action" 2/day. So unless the dominate person and destruction spells are tossed around like copper pieces you'll rarely run out of uses.

The part about a "free action" is a designer goof, since per RAW you can only take free actions as part of another action. IMO the intent is clearly that you can use the ability in response to an attack. It would probably be an immediate action in a more recent book, so I agree you want to win initiative.


(and melee guys they could take the funny feat from Exemplars of Evil or Elder Evils that gives immunity to mind affecting effects at the cost of -4 to wisdom (which isn't really important for fighters or barbarians anyway).You mean the Deformity (madness) feat. I haven't seen the text of the feat in Elder Evils, but based on the WotC preview (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20071203a&page=3) it requires the Willing Deformity feat, and can only be taken if you don't mind your character being Evil, insane and willing to mutilate himself. If that, and -4 Wis, is an cheap price to pay for immunity to mind-affecting effects then I think you just made my point.

Talya
2008-01-02, 01:04 PM
I wasn't aware the Substitution/Admixture feats could be chosen for Sonic.

Heheheh. Little bit of a loophole, there.

In 3.5, the energy substitution feats wisely avoided sonic energy substitution. However, it existed in 3e, and they didn't officially REMOVE it. 3.0 material is still valid if it doesn't conflict with 3.5.

marjan
2008-01-02, 01:16 PM
Heheheh. Little bit of a loophole, there.

In 3.5, the energy substitution feats wisely avoided sonic energy substitution. However, it existed in 3e, and they didn't officially REMOVE it. 3.0 material is still valid if it doesn't conflict with 3.5.

But since the same feat in 3.5 doesn't mention sonic as possibility shouldn't that be illegal by RAW?

Talya
2008-01-02, 01:22 PM
But since the same feat in 3.5 doesn't mention sonic as possibility shouldn't that be illegal by RAW?

Meh. You could interpret it that way, or not. The feats are essentially separate feats. Energy Substitution [acid] and Energy Substitution [fire] are not the same feat. If a 3.5 book says you can have Energy Substitution [fire], [cold], [electricity], and [acid], but fails to mention [sonic], but an older book has Energy Substitution [sonic] in it, it could be argued to be additive. It will depend on your DM.

Obviously, it was the intent of the designers to remove it from 3.5, because Sonic resistance or invulnerability is extremely rare.

That said, my DM let me have it on a sorceror that I play in his game, for multiple reasons. (1) it was thematically appropriate to the character -- she has bard levels. (2) sorcerors have very limited spell selections, so they can't diversify against different opponents as easily. (3) Because she had bloodline of fire, and most of her evocations were fire-based, she actually takes a 2 level dip in spellpower when she substitutes to a sonic spell anyway.

valadil
2008-01-02, 01:29 PM
A not particularly well known PrC that I'm fond of is the Incarnate. The idea behind it is that the character is very actively True Neutral, striving to maintain a balance between good/evil and law/chaos.

I think there was something in there about the character dying and being reincarnated, but always striving for neutral balance. In crunch terms, as you level you gain access to different past lives and your wild shape becomes those instead. It was limiting, but I liked it a lot more than shifting into whatever form is convenient. I think there was also something about choosing a domain and getting to spontaneously cast off it.

Ganurath
2008-01-02, 01:30 PM
Heheheh. Little bit of a loophole, there.

In 3.5, the energy substitution feats wisely avoided sonic energy substitution. However, it existed in 3e, and they didn't officially REMOVE it. 3.0 material is still valid if it doesn't conflict with 3.5.Wait, wait, wait.

Wait.

*gets out Arms & Equipment Guide, calculates cost of two sets of Fharlanghn's Lines and a Keelboat*

I would like to add Dread Pirate to the list of fun PrCs.

*begins calculating when it would be a good time to add a Cloud Keel, Planar Sails, a Lightning Turbine, and a druid teammate for control weather*

"There be a storm coming..."
"Always a storm when we're coming to raid."

Signmaker
2008-01-02, 01:31 PM
Wait, wait, wait.

Wait.

*gets out Arms & Equipment Guide, calculates cost of two sets of Fharlanghn's Lines and a Keelboat*

I would like to add Dread Pirate to the list of fun PrCs.

*begins calculating when it would be a good time to add a Cloud Keel, Planar Sails, a Lightning Turbine, and a druid teammate for control weather*

"There be a storm coming..."
"Always a storm when we're coming to raid."

Epic.

Twiggy twiggy

marjan
2008-01-02, 01:33 PM
Meh. You could interpret it that way, or not. The feats are essentially separate feats. Energy Substitution [acid] and Energy Substitution [fire] are not the same feat. If a 3.5 book says you can have Energy Substitution [fire], [cold], [electricity], and [acid], but fails to mention [sonic], but an older book has Energy Substitution [sonic] in it, it could be argued to be additive. It will depend on your DM.

That is almost in the realm of Weapon Proficiency(Gnome), isn't it?:smalltongue:

Sledge_bro
2008-01-02, 01:33 PM
I always imagined it more as a Skittles-based class. Something like: "Taste the rainbow, bitch!" right before the attacker bursts into flame and disintegrates.


Pure gold (well, Rainbows) :smallbiggrin:

Talya
2008-01-02, 01:34 PM
That is almost in the realm of Weapon Proficiency(Gnome), isn't it?

Ooooh. I like that one...makes me want to create a goliath or larger character just so I can weild one.

marjan
2008-01-02, 01:56 PM
Ooooh. I like that one...makes me want to create a goliath or larger character just so I can weild one.

Just don't forget Fling Ally/Enemy, depending on your personal connection with the said gnome. And go Kensai after that.:smallbiggrin:

Draz74
2008-01-02, 03:54 PM
Just don't forget Fling Ally/Enemy, depending on your personal connection with the said gnome. And go Kensai after that.:smallbiggrin:

Make sure you pick up some Setting Sun throwing maneuvers too.

Sucrose
2008-01-02, 03:55 PM
Just don't forget Fling Ally/Enemy, depending on your personal connection with the said gnome. And go Kensai after that.:smallbiggrin:

This is my gnome. There are many like it, but this one is mine. I must master it as I master my life. Without me, my gnome is useless. Without my gnome, I am useless.

More on topic, I'm always a fan of the gish prestige classes: Spellsword, Eldritch Knight (mostly to fill in holes) and so on.

Mr.Bookworm
2008-01-02, 08:07 PM
This is my gnome. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

My gnome is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life.

My gnome, without me, is useless. Without my gnome, I am useless. I must fling my gnome true. I must throw straighter than my enemy who is trying to kill me. I must hit him with an airborn gnome before he hits me with an airborn gnome. I WILL...

My gnome and myself know that what counts in this war is not the gnomes we fling, the splats of their impacts, nor the dead gnomes we make. We know that it is the hits with airborn gnomes that count. WE WILL HIT...

My gnome is human, even as I, because it is my life. Thus, I will learn it as a brother. I will learn its weaknesses, its strength, its parts, its accessories, its weight, and its trajectory. I will ever guard it against the ravages of weather and damage as I will ever guard my legs, my arms, my eyes and my heart against damage. I will keep my gnome clean and ready. We will become part of each other. WE WILL...

Before (Good Deity of Choice), I swear this creed. My gnome and myself are the defenders of my country. We are the masters of our enemy. WE ARE THE SAVIORS OF MY LIFE.

So be it, until victory is (Insert Eberronian/Faerunian country) and there is no enemy, but peace!

=D

---

Also, to keep this on topic, I love the Cancer Mage. Dunno why, but I just think being a walking Black Death is cool, for some reason.

Fax Celestis
2008-01-02, 08:22 PM
I'm a personal fan of Totem Rager, myself. Scary blue-glowing raging channeler of totems? Sweet.

Also awesome is the Spellwarp Sniper. It's really only good for blasters, but it's got some nifty control applications as well. Great thunderclap, for instance, becomes "touch attack to be prone, plus Fort save or be deaf and Will save or be stunned."

Noctumancer, for having one of the coolest pieces of art this side of The Kobold Butler.

Assassin, if you add in Spell Compendium or some other books. That spell list is sweet if you go outside of core.

Mr.Bookworm
2008-01-02, 08:53 PM
Where's the Noctumancer from?

Never heard of it.

WrstDmEvr
2008-01-02, 09:48 PM
Where's the Noctumancer from?

Never heard of it.

Tome of Magic, I think. Was just looking it up earlier today

Toliudar
2008-01-02, 09:58 PM
I can't believe no one's mentioned the Alienist. Full of itch-at-the-base-of-your-spine fun. Slow descent into creepiness, a few flavourful abilities (which would become much more if only the CA version of pseudonatural weren't so nerfed), caster progression. What's not to love?

Draz74
2008-01-02, 10:13 PM
I can't believe no one's mentioned the Alienist.

Me neither. Literally can't believe. Because it has been mentioned. (Yes, in this thread.)

Toliudar
2008-01-02, 10:22 PM
Okay, no one's expanded on it, then. The OP mentioned liking the PrC. I guess I'm just a bandwagon jumper then. :smallwink:

Sleet
2008-01-02, 10:27 PM
I'm partial to good, old-fashioned duelist, myself.

Collin152
2008-01-02, 10:45 PM
I've heard it mentioned a couple of times, but where is Sand Shaper found?

bugsysservant
2008-01-02, 10:46 PM
I've heard it mentioned a couple of times, but where is Sand Shaper found?

Sandstorm, naturally. :smallwink:

Ryuuk
2008-01-02, 10:49 PM
At the moment I'm pretty fond of the Deepstone Sentinel from Tome of Battle. Moving the ground around you on a whim just seems pretty badass.

Guy_Whozevl
2008-01-03, 12:38 AM
Any of the taint related classes in Heroes of Horror, as the premise for those is very awesome; one gives themselves to the taint and corruption of evil in order to best combat it. However, stray a little too far from the path of light and you can never find your way back as you decend into madness and evil.
The Tainted Scholar can get an immense amount of spells per day and spell save DCs, but that's just the icing on the cake.:smallbiggrin: