Jedi vs. Space Marines

[Cyclone231]

Who would win - a force of fully equipped Space Marines, or an equal force of fully equipped Jedi?

I ask because I'm curious and have little idea who would win.

[loopy]

I'd have to go with Space Marines, as they seem to operate by the Inverse Ninja effect. Single Jedi are badass, but whenever an army of Jedi go anywhere they get absolutely slaughtered. Cases in point: Order 66, Geonosis Arena.

While a single Space marine is badass, small squads of them have been known to take down armies.

[Eita]

Space Marines. By a huge margin.

[kpenguin]

Depends on how powerful the Jedi are and whether they have the plot limits on their powers taken off.

[konfeta]

They have a point, it really does depend on how powerful the Jedi chosen are. Puny Padawans and Knights would be probably be eradicated without a second thought.

Certain, Jedi Masters (*cough*KyleKatarn*cough*) are walking Jedi versions of Duke Nukem, Doom Marine, Gordon Freeman, Master Chief, etc.

Simply put, the Space Marines, short of a Librarian, don't have a way to fight enemies that can ignore their armor (force; especially those who don't shy away from using the Dark Side) or utilize retardantly super powered tricks (force speed, dodging nearly instantenous beams, use of force to counter-act effects of G forces or physics period, various mind tricks; special note going to Rage, which if allowed, is an I win button; etc.).

Pretty much, this is dependent entirely on which Jedi and which Space Marines you use.


*If you use the movie Jedi though, they lose, period. They got SLAUGHTERED by farking Clone Troopers. If you use game jedi, such as those from Jedi Knight series, they could actually stand a chance.

[WNxHasoroth]

Depends on armaments. Are the Space Marines equipped with power weapons? What rank are the Jedi?

I'd give it to Space Marines tbh. Massed Bolter fire, equal reflexs, more experience, power weapons.

Stick in a Librarian or a Terminator Squad and phewww it gets really one sided.

[kpenguin]

*If you use the movie Jedi though, they lose, period. They got SLAUGHTERED by farking Clone Troopers. If you use game jedi, such as those from Jedi Knight series, they could actually stand a chance.

Like I said, plot limits.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

I'd go with the SM, they're just better than the Jedi, hell they'd win due to sheer bad-assery :smalltongue:


A side discussion, who would win, the same group of Jedi, or a single middle powered SM librarian

[Talkkno]

*If you use the movie Jedi though, they lose, period. They got SLAUGHTERED by farking Clone Troopers. If you use game jedi, such as those from Jedi Knight series, they could actually stand a chance.

Sigh....thats because they precon didn't tick off that you know, these have been people that have been fighting with Jedi for years, they know there weakness and strength inimatly, and that they did have not any emotional response when they were killing off...
Obi-wan managed to defeat Grevious who was attacking 40 attacks per second.

[Rutee]

I'm going with the Jedi, tentatively. Nobody in the WH40k universe seems to operate at the speed Jedi with their plot limiters taken off can move at. Combo'd with the fact that Lightsabers likely laugh at Space Marine armor.. doesn't look good for the Marines.

[Jakezor]

Space Marines.
Exterminatus.
That being said, Jedi would be screwed:
1) Blocking lasers is fine, they bounce, whatever. Blocking .45 calibre exploding rounds full of shrapnel/napalm? Kaboom.

2) Psychic Hoods. GG force.

Then again, I'm not really a Jedi-fan. People always seem to have fangasums at them and assume they're epic win for some reason.

If Jedi get Luke/Kyle/Whoever. The Space Marines get Mephiston, or 'Zeke.

[Rutee]

2) Psychic Hoods. GG force.
Psychic Hoods? Dare I ask what these do specifically?

[Eita]

Hoods that Librarians have that block your opponent from using psychic powers.

[Rutee]

Heh. Do they work by blocking the connection to the Warp? And uh, I'm /pretty sure/ that they're not psychic powers...

[Eita]

They pretty much say "Nuh-uh!" when anyone uses psychic powers.

The Force most likely would still be viable.

[Talkkno]

Space Marines.
Exterminatus.
That being said, Jedi would be screwed:
1) Blocking lasers is fine, they bounce, whatever. Blocking .45 calibre exploding rounds full of shrapnel/napalm? Kaboom.

2) Psychic Hoods. GG force.

Then again, I'm not really a Jedi-fan. People always seem to have fangasums at them and assume they're epic win for some reason.

If Jedi get Luke/Kyle/Whoever. The Space Marines get Mephiston, or 'Zeke.
Can a Space Marines do this?
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Image:Force_Wave.jpg
Or drain entire planet's life away? Start supernovas? Coordainte and improve fleets efficiencies by up to 30% and with perfect arrucary despite both fleets being several light years away? Come back from the dead?(More then once.) See up to several thousand years into the future with nigh prefect accuracy? The list goes on...

[Rutee]

They pretty much say "Nuh-uh!" when anyone uses psychic powers.

The Force most likely would still be viable.

I'm thinking the same. Probably block mental interference, but shouldn't really touch the rest.


Or drain entire planet's life away? Start supernovas? Coordainte and improve fleets efficiencies by up to 30% and with perfect arrucary despite both fleets being several light years away? Come back from the dead?(More then once.) See up to several thousand years into the future with nigh prefect accuracy? The list goes on...
...When do Jedi do any of the above?

[Artemician]

I'm thinking the same. Probably block mental interference, but shouldn't really touch the rest.


...When do Jedi do any of the above?

Expanded Universe. Do not ask.

[Talkkno]

...When do Jedi do any of the above?

Darth Nithlus did the planet life draining thing, Jorrus'CBoath did Battle Mediation Heir to the Empire, Paplatine came back to life several times in Dark Empire, though he said he learned it from a Jedi, seeing in the future, Luke got a pretty good sense of what was going to happen at Bespin, though i'll get some better examples later...

[Eita]

Palpatine came back to life thanks to his clones.

[Alex Knight]

On a related topic...how well do you guys think the Dinachrome Brigade would do against the forces of the Imperium?

(Dinachrome Brigade = Keith Laumer's Bolos)

My bet is Bolos against anything up to Titans/orbital fire, and then it might be a tossup :smallbiggrin:

[warty goblin]

Space Marines all the way. Jedi block blasterfire, the path of which can be traced and predicted by normal people, but canonically have trouble with massed fire (from battle droids no less....). Bolterfire is supersonic I believe, and certainly faster than blasterfire. The bit where the bolts explode on impact sort of sucks as well...and that's before we even get into squad heavy weapons.

If the Jedi can close to melee they might have a chance, although honestly I'm really not sure that even then they'd fare that much better. Marines' combat knives are what, two feet long with a monomolecular edge? Lightsabers are better, but only just. Power weapons just make things worse yet, as they are basically light sabers, but with blade mass, meaning that weilded by the obscenely strong Space Marines they will simply bat lightsabers out of the way (think of trying to parry a wooden baseball bat with a wiffleball bat).

[Tyrant]

Darth Nithlus did the planet life draining thing, Jorrus'CBoath did Battle Mediation Heir to the Empire, Paplatine came back to life several times in Dark Empire, though he said he learned it from a Jedi, seeing in the future, Luke got a pretty good sense of what was going to happen at Bespin, though i'll get some better examples later...

The Battle Meditation thing also comes up in KotoR. It's also implied (or outright stated) that Vader willed himself to keep living through pure hatred and dark side energy after being incinerated. Similar to how Darth Sion could keep himself from dying (or just keep reanimating) through pure anger and hatred despite taking enough damage to kill dozens of men if not more. There are also more mundane things like using the dark side to maintain a state of alertness well past the point of exhaustion for normal people and to hold one's breath for hours or days if need be (if I remember that bit correctly, I believe it was also mentioned in KoToR). And, at least in Vader's case, the force can be used directly to block or deflect blaster shots.

[kpenguin]

I remember a novel stating that Vader actually absorbed the energy from those blaster shots to fuel his TK, but I'm not sure.

[Nibleswick]

The OP said that the Jedi are fully armed, does that include fighters, blasters, a repeating blaster, a long blaster, concussion grenades, thermal detonators, shaped charges, med-kits, and combat armor? Does it matter what species the Jedi are? Well, thats all I can think of at the moment.

^Yes, that was in I, Jedi, but that ability is rare. It's darn handy though, one fellow survived being at the center of an explosion that would have leveled a city.

[Ominous]

If the Jedi are from the expanded universe, have their plot limits taken off, and have access to any and all equipment, the Jedi would win. Some of the Jedi in the expanded universe seem to be superman/dark pheonix hybrids on crack.

If we're using the six movies as our basis for Jedi, then the Space Marines easily win.

[Wizzardman]

Can a Space Marines do this?
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Image:Force_Wave.jpg
Or drain entire planet's life away? Start supernovas? Coordainte and improve fleets efficiencies by up to 30% and with perfect arrucary despite both fleets being several light years away? Come back from the dead?(More then once.) See up to several thousand years into the future with nigh prefect accuracy? The list goes on...

You know, if we're going to start using Expanded Universe hax, we really have to include Primarchs to be fair.

We're not talking the best of the best of the best Jedi here. We're talking an average Jedi from--let's assume Old Republic era, as everyone is familiar with them--fighting average Space Marines. Otherwise, we're just going to crash into "heroes do this and that" and "plot armor".

Personally, I'd vote for Space Marines. Space Marines are generally more experienced with combat (especially in squads) than your average Jedi, and their equipment is more effective against Jedi than most SW universe weapons (bolters fire their grenade-like shots very quickly, and are difficult to block, force weapons equal lightsabers, etc). Space Marines also have their intense training and conviction to protect them from most mental assaults, such as Jedi Mind Tricks and the like.

Additionally, Space Marines are far too stubborn and well-made to die like normal people, so they would be able to continue to fight after any lightsaber wound that doesn't automatically kill them--this is important, because a surprising number of people in the SW universe have 'died' from arm shots, leg shots, and stab wounds that a Space Marine would survive. This stubbornness also applies to several force powers, such as lightning or choking, that would have a lot less of an effect on a Space Marine then these powers have on normals. Jedi are more resilient than others of the SW universe, but Space Marines are still much tougher.

That's not to say it wouldn't be a hard fight. Even if you consider the Space Marines enhanced reflexes and training as on par with Jedi force-enhancements, general force powers will still be very useful against Space Marines. But in the end, I gotta go with Space Marines.

[Fuzzy_Juan]

Jedi win hands down...lightsabers can reach longer than 24" :smallbiggrin:

Against equal numbers of jedi, marines lose. Jedi are the equivalent of a temple assasin...Callidus? The one with the c'tan blade that as the 3+ invulnerable save and can whoop some serious err...donkey. And that is just the knights...masters like Windu and Kenobi are more like the special characters with even more attacks, special effects and what not.

So...same number...jedi will be able to close, and once in combat cut them to pieces...a few might get killed, but they win...masters get involved...then the special characters of WH40K need to be present to challenge them and it is a toss up.

[Dervag]

Sigh....thats because they precon didn't tick off that you know, these have been people that have been fighting with Jedi for years, they know there weakness and strength inimatly, and that they did have not any emotional response when they were killing off...Yeah. We think of the clone troopers as faceless mooks in the movies because there are so many of them and they get killed off on a number of occasions, but they're supposed to be clones of one of the galaxy's greatest non-Jedi warriors. Remember- the guy who actually managed to gun down a Jedi in Episode II? With a blaster? Which is kind of like taking down an armored knight with his shield and broadsword while clad in a loincloth and armed only with an iron dagger?

Even if it was just an 'ordinary' Jedi, or even just a half-trained padawan, that's still not going to be easy.


Obi-wan managed to defeat Grevious who was attacking 40 attacks per second.I thought it was twenty.

Of course, based on the novelization, Obi-Wan was possibly the only Jedi swordsman able to defeat Grievous, because his style emphasized defense that Grievous would have to penetrate (making his lack of Force sensitivty a weakness by pitting it against the full benefit of Jedi precognition), rather than an offensive style Grievous could exploit for weaknesses found in his great experience of Jedi fighting styles.


Personally, I'd vote for Space Marines. Space Marines are generally more experienced with combat (especially in squads) than your average Jedi, and their equipment is more effective against Jedi than most SW universe weapons (bolters fire their grenade-like shots very quickly, and are difficult to block, force weapons equal lightsabers, etc). Space Marines also have their intense training and conviction to protect them from most mental assaults, such as Jedi Mind Tricks and the like.The Jedi's biggest problem against Space Marines will be that the Space Marines have many types of ranged weapons the Jedi cannot deflect with their lightsabers or easily avoid, such as flamers and plasma weapons. Since Jedi can be struck and killed by weapons fired by non-Force users, we know they would have some trouble dealing with large numbers of men firing weapons that have a distinct area of effect.

This relates to a question I've always had- with all the cases in the Star Wars universe where people had to fight a Jedi, why didn't they ever think of using a shotgun loaded with buckshot? A big shotgun? Or a blaster-style weapon that fires a large volley of bolts?

I mean, there's clearly an upper limit on the number of simultaneous attacks a Jedi can evade or deflect at once.


That's not to say it wouldn't be a hard fight. Even if you consider the Space Marines enhanced reflexes and training as on par with Jedi force-enhancements, general force powers will still be very useful against Space Marines. But in the end, I gotta go with Space Marines.Given adequate numbers and armament for the Marines, yes.

In melee, a Jedi would cut a Space Marine to ribbons (eventually). But it isn't likely to come to melee if the Marines fight at all intelligently.

[Eita]

If the Masters get involved then the Masters on both sides get involved. A Space Marine Chapter Master is a veteran of thousands of campaigns and is hundreds of years old. He is equipped with the Chapter's most potent wargear and entire sectors live and die from his orders.

[Deadmeat.GW]

Top end basic (non-plot protected or plot-killable Jedi) Jedi Master will take on a combat squad and have fifty/fifty odds.

A Jedi Knight will die.

And EU Uber powers are one-offs which require either very specific reasons or origins.
Some of them are also purely plot powered or powering.

That Jedi Knights 2 guy that keeps coming back?

A perfect example of a plot-advancer :).

And a combat squad is 5 marines with either the sergeant or the heavy/support weapon.
Bolter, bolt pistol, mono-edged combat blades which are made of adamantine, fragmentation grenades, krak grenades, power armour which gives in the fluff a small amount of protection against power weapons (and I would put light sabers in power weapons category) if the opponent is fairly strong, life support, inbuild sensors and comms.

The gear makes the odds even against a master and it is likely several marines will go down or die against a master.

Secondly remember that lightsabers do not cut everything immediately.
Given what you have in Knights of the Republic and what the combat knives (and at 2 feet is a short sword actually for the normal people, only marines call that a knife) are made off that they could parry with them at least a couple of times before the light saber goes through.
The ceramic armour layers are rather heat resistant also which would give the armour normally an edge but I am going to keep it simple and say Jedi skill compensates for this and they get to use the lightsabers as actual power weapons.

[WNxHasoroth]

Given that I think EU is a bit, crap lets make the numbers a bit smaller.

One Space Marine Librarian, armed with a force weapon (light saber that sucks souls) against a Jedi Master with a light saber. Who wins?

To put it simply, the Librarian. Psychic powers meant to a) strip souls, b) flay people, c) tear holes open in reality and d) conjure the essence of a Chapters martial pride and history into a massive monster that rampages across battlefields (not to mention e) slow down time for Jedi-esque reflexes and agility).

Not to mention to become a Librarian requires centuries of effort, and when you become a Librarian you get a Psychic Hood which nullifies psychic attacks. If you argue the Force does not count as any sort of psychic energy the Librarian smacks around the Jedi Master with his force weapon and burns his mind.

And if Light Sabers can only cut through ceramics slowly, may I remind you that Space Marine Power Armor is made of Ceramite for a reason?

[Eita]

Only one thing could conceivably bring down a Space Marine Chapter Master, and that is Yoda. And even then, there are 999 other Chapter Masters (well, actually 998 what with the Grey Knights and their organizational shenanigans).

[Destro_Yersul]

Can a Space Marines do this?
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Image:Force_Wave.jpg
Or drain entire planet's life away? Start supernovas? Coordainte and improve fleets efficiencies by up to 30% and with perfect arrucary despite both fleets being several light years away? Come back from the dead?(More then once.) See up to several thousand years into the future with nigh prefect accuracy? The list goes on...

To answer your questions in order: Some of them can, yes, unknown, yes, yes (and yes), some of them can.

As a second thing to note, certain materials are lightsaber resistant, notably cortosis and phrik. Who's to say the stuff power armour is made of can't have the same properties? Oh, and one other thing. Space Marines keep fighting no matter what, ignoring injuries that would kill lesser men. Chop off a marines legs and he will strangle you with his intestines, prop himself against a wall, and fire until he runs out of ammo. He will then get fitted with bionic legs, come back, and kill you again to make sure you're dead.

[Deadmeat.GW]

Given that I think EU is a bit, crap lets make the numbers a bit smaller.

One Space Marine Librarian, armed with a force weapon (light saber that sucks souls) against a Jedi Master with a light saber. Who wins?

To put it simply, the Librarian. Psychic powers meant to a) strip souls, b) flay people, c) tear holes open in reality and d) conjure the essence of a Chapters martial pride and history into a massive monster that rampages across battlefields (not to mention e) slow down time for Jedi-esque reflexes and agility).

Not to mention to become a Librarian requires centuries of effort, and when you become a Librarian you get a Psychic Hood which nullifies psychic attacks. If you argue the Force does not count as any sort of psychic energy the Librarian smacks around the Jedi Master with his force weapon and burns his mind.

And if Light Sabers can only cut through ceramics slowly, may I remind you that Space Marine Power Armor is made of Ceramite for a reason?

I was willing to let that slide as the armour does not give as much protection as a blast door and a lightsaber could stab into that pretty much in a moment notice.
I would say a master's skill would be enough to just go through if he is fairly fit.

On the other hand I am sure the combat knifes would not just be sliced through, those are not ceramics usually.

[factotum]

I was willing to let that slide as the armour does not give as much protection as a blast door and a lightsaber could stab into that pretty much in a moment notice.


The lightsaber can stab point-first into a blast door, but it doesn't seem able to cut it very fast once you've done that; essentially most of its energy seems to go into heating the metal around the blade rather than cutting it.

[TheOtherMC]

Only one thing could conceivably bring down a Space Marine Chapter Master, and that is Yoda. And even then, there are 999 other Chapter Masters (well, actually 998 what with the Grey Knights and their organizational shenanigans).

Dont forget some chapter Masters are..er...."special cases" like the Iron Hands having Venerable Dreadnaughts as their chapter masters :P

[Prophaniti]

This depends on two things. The main one is how or if the Force and Psyker powers interact. Do they counter each other, like if one throws psykic energy to knock the other down and the other tries to use the Force to knock the one down, what happens? Do they both fall down? Do neither fall down, as they counteract each other? Or does something else entirely happen, like a Warp daemon showing up for the show?

The second is, as mentioned, whether the Power of Plot is involved. Because if so then this is just a 'nu uh! Yu huh!' argument, as both SMs and Jedi exibit some ridiculous power levels when the plot suits it (It's over 9000!!!).

As long as we keep the Power of Plot out of the debate and stick with standard Jedi knights and standard Space Marines, it's actually a pretty fair contest. For sake of my post, I'm going to go with Force and Psyk powers being different and not interacting. Now, SMs don't generally have psykers with every single squad, so there's advantage Jedi.
They do have vastly superior firepower that a standard Jedi wouldn't be able to avoid or block all of. Advantage SMs.
Jedi are pretty dang good in close combat, and setting a lightsaber equivelant to a Power Weapon... Which I should note that despite someone's earlier post, power weapons are constantly described as carving right through power armor as though it were . Advantage Jedi.
SMs are extremely tough and even standard ones can survive and fight for a period of time after severe trauma, such as losing a limb. Scenario: Jedi comes up and chops off the SMs arm, this leaves him temporarily expose and the SM either returns the favor, or just caves in the Jedi's skull with a single punch. Yes, SMs [I]are fast enough to do that, and strong enough as well.

All in all, a pretty close fight. Given the advantages in survivability, firepower and physical strength, I'd bet on Astartes, but it's at least possible for the Jedi to win.

[Shas aia Toriia]

The space marines can just mass fire on the jedi, wiping most of them out before they're in lightsaber range, and the SM "knives" are several feet long, and could probably stop a lightsaber one or two times before being chopped open.

The force should be treated as using Warp powers to even things out a bit.

Regardless, I still think that the SM win with massed fire.

[Eita]

The SM win with Bolters. The Jedi would be mowed down.

[Zenos]

I think the SM's win, with some fair casualties. I think I've heard about the Imperium once having the tech to make power weapons without any physical blades, essentialy light sabers. So power weapons are light sabers but need more materials to make.

[Talkkno]

I think the SM's win, with some fair casualties. I think I've heard about the Imperium once having the tech to make power weapons without any physical blades, essentialy light sabers. So power weapons are light sabers but need more materials to make.

The thing is that lightsabers operate not a sheer cutting power like a power weapon, but something much more complicated...
"According to physicist Yakov Borisovich Zel'dovich, a rapidly spinning
conductor will cause the creation of virtual particle radiation at its
surface. Particle production is controlled by the charge, angular
velocity (of rotation) and radius of this charged conductor.

Taking that idea, if we imagine a rod shaped charged field of
atomic-scale cross-section, which is superconducting and rotating at
near-lightspeed, then charge regulation becomes the control for the
particle emission type and quantity. Such charged fields would tend to
repel one-another (if they are of like polarity), which means the
blades would BLOCK one another.

The glow of the sabre blade consists of virtual-photons energised by
the rotating field into real photons ... virtual light make real! The
opaque 'thumb-thick' blade shape may be a swirl of ionised atmospheric
particles (the AIR) drawn in and swirling about the core. When you
IONISE a gas, you actually have a PLASMA (as it is meant by
terrestrial physics) ... and this would glow JUST LIKE A FLUORESCENT
TUBE (which is ALSO a plasma!) ... BUT this thumb-thick plasma zone is
merely a by-product ... the REAL cutting is performed by minuscule
core of the true blade ... leaving almost microscopically thin cuts.
(The blade would STILL glow fiercely in even in a vacuum, as it throws
off 'virtual photons - made real' ... but the thumb-thick core may not
be visible.)

NOTE: I call the colors a "tracer" effect - it allows the weilder to
easily track the motion of his own weapon and helps avoid accidental
self-inflicted injury.

Such a tight rapidly spinning charged superconducting field would rend
(tear) through most matter by stripping off electrons which bind atoms
together. The ionized matter about the 'cut', as well as field-excited
atomic movement in the localized area of the 'cut', would mimic great
point-of-contact heat. A wound to a soft-tissue organic being would
appear to be a microscopically thin BURN - and such a wound would
usually tend to be cauterised (depending on how slowly the blade
passed through - a large blood vessel cut too quickly may not be
sufficiently 'burned' to cauterise).

Dense metals which have loosely bound electrons (which are free to
wander about their lattice structure) would be more resistant to
cutting. The 'atom stripping' effect would take a little longer to cut
through, because such materials have more electrons 'to spare' before
their lattice structure becomes 'torn'. Metals are also more highly
conductive, and the localized 'heat' effects are minimized because the
heat is carried away and dispersed through the material more quickly.

This means that even though with varying amounts of effort, a
lightsabre could cut through virtually anything, some materials would
offer more resistance to a sabre blade, and therefore we can now
understand how Lord Vader's armor was able to ward off most of Luke's
glancing blow, saving his life.

This model fits all of the available movie evidence:
# it SPINS - providing the "repulsion" effect when two sabres come into contact
# no 'plasma' or 'fuel' required other than raw power
# the blade is effectively PURE energy (thus being effectively massless)
# the blade is opaque
# there is a sensible 'focusing' (tuning) role for crystals which
COULD see them able to adjust the color!
# the blades would block one another AND blaster bolts!
# it hums
# it glows, even in a vacuum!
# the cuts are microscopically thin
# it cuts by 'shearing away' the electrons in the substance, leaving a
locally 'induced' heat-like reaction - things heat themselves, which
is consistent with how the door on the TradeFed BB was melting in EpI.
- in other words: .. leaving burns & cauterized wounds!
# dense metallic surfaces with many stray electrons in their matrix
would provide higher resistance to the 'electron stripping' cutting
action ... thus Vader's armour stops the glancing blow from killing
him!"

[Talkkno]

I thought it was twenty.

Of course, based on the novelization, Obi-Wan was possibly the only Jedi swordsman able to defeat Grievous, because his style emphasized defense that Grievous would have to penetrate (making his lack of Force sensitivty a weakness by pitting it against the full benefit of Jedi precognition), rather than an offensive style Grievous could exploit for weaknesses found in his great experience of Jedi fighting styles.



The thing is, in the Clone Wars cartoon, Dooku specifically noted the only way Grievous was going to beat any Jedi was threw fear and surprise, otherwise he lost it he was instructed to run with his tail on his behind.
" "If you are to succeed in combat against the best of the Jedi, you must have fear, surprise, and intimidation on your side. For if any one element is lacking, it would be best for you to retreat. You must break them before you engage them. Only then will you ensure victory, and have your trophy."
―Count Dooku to Grievous

[WhiteKnight777]

This is a rather interesting question. I think, however, that if the Jedi get their uber-powered plot-armor heroes on their side, it's only fair that the Space Marines get a Primarch or Two. I'd like to see Yoda or Windu take on the likes of The Lion El'Jonson, Sanguinius or, Emperor help them, Leman Russ.

[Kojiro Kakita]

Ahh, Rus, now he would be an intersting character for the Jedi's to fight. However, why not use Warmaster Horus himself. HE could provide a challange for any one.

[WhiteKnight777]

Ahh, Rus, now he would be an intersting character for the Jedi's to fight. However, why not use Warmaster Horus himself. HE could provide a challange for any one.

if we're going to go with Traitor Legionaires, Magnus the Red would be interesting. The guy's a psychic titan, and I think he would outclass most Jedi in both the esoteric and in raw physicality.

[Solo]

if we're going to go with Traitor Legionaires, Magnus the Red would be interesting. The guy's a psychic titan, and I think he would outclass most Jedi in both the esoteric and in raw physicality.

I would like to see that heretic scum overcome his lack of depth perception.

[Raiser Blade]

Here is how I see it.

Regular Jedi Knights = No contest Space Marines destroy them


One Jedi Master such as Master Windu or Yoda = Jedi destroys a squad of Space Marines.

The Master Jedi are incredibly powerful.
Example:
The Space marines would try to mow Windu down from range

A. He can force push their arm to fire on their comrades
B. He is too fast to hit with anything but spray fire which he can force push away from him

Once he gets up close it would be chop chop and it's over.

Or he can just mind crush them all...

[ShadowSiege]

I'm going to have to say Adeptus Astartes win the day versus the Jedi as long as they don't immediately start in melee. The hail of bolter fire would win the day against all but the heaviest plot armored Jedi. And even if the fight started in melee, the Jedi would have a hard fight on their hands against the greatest warriors of the Imperium. It's been shown time and again that a marine will fight long after a normal man would have slipped into oblivion.

[Dervag]

The thing is, in the Clone Wars cartoon, Dooku specifically noted the only way Grievous was going to beat any Jedi was threw fear and surprise, otherwise he lost it he was instructed to run with his tail on his behind.
" "If you are to succeed in combat against the best of the Jedi, you must have fear, surprise, and intimidation on your side. For if any one element is lacking, it would be best for you to retreat. You must break them before you engage them. Only then will you ensure victory, and have your trophy."
?Count Dooku to GrievousBut according to the novels, he fought Mace Windu to a standstill on Coruscant, didn't he?

Dooku would tend to overestimate Jedi powers, being both arrogant and possessed of about half a century of Jedi training. And Grievous would become much more effective against Jedi once armed both with a lightsaber and some experience of Jedi swordsmanship.

[WhiteKnight777]

Here is how I see it.

Regular Jedi Knights = No contest Space Marines destroy them


One Jedi Master such as Master Windu or Yoda = Jedi destroys a squad of Space Marines.

The Master Jedi are incredibly powerful.
Example:
The Space marines would try to mow Windu down from range

A. He can force push their arm to fire on their comrades
B. He is too fast to hit with anything but spray fire which he can force push away from him

Once he gets up close it would be chop chop and it's over.

Or he can just mind crush them all...

The Imperium has ways of dealing with psychically powerful individuals. The Officio Assassinorium has some very, very nasty guys with skull helmets who eat psykers alive.

That said, At least on Chapter would annihilate the Jedi with no problem: Grey Knights. every one of 'em is psychically gifted, probably at least on the level of a Padawan, and they carry some extremely nasty weaponry. Their armor is warded against psychic abilities, and their fighting skills are unparalleled.

All that said, it should also be considered that any Jedi fighting a space marine in hand to hand is going to have to invest a significant amount of his Force in just boosting his physical abilities in order to keep up with the ten-foot-tall genetically engineered killing machines, which is going to keep them from using their full force potential on mental attacks.


I would like to see that heretic scum overcome his lack of depth perception.

You don't need depth perception to make someone's skull pop open like a party favor with raw psychic power.

[Verruckt]

Simple, simple simple simple. You can have all of the Jedi, all of them, EU movies etc. no plot limitations or armor and full standard Jedi gear (essentially, their lightsabers). Space Marines get the Daemon Hunters, geared as their chapter would be, including any mechanized divisions and artefacts they're likely to have.

Step 1:

The necessary plot hole opens up, every single Jedi anywhere and anytime is ported onto a planet on the 40k side of the plot hole, the gray knights on the opposite side of the planet.

Step 2:

Wait about 3.5 seconds for the Arch Enemy to notice the veritable disturbance in the warp.

Step 3:

Once the Grey Knights stop giggling they move to the other side of the planet and begin cleaning up a very sticky pile of Jedi remains and finishing off the lingering daemon hosts and Slaanesh/Nurgle demonic STD piles. The few Jedi strong enough to resist the darkside made manifest and the ensuing blood/ other unseemly fluids bath that follows their arrival are easily dealt with in their tired states by the Knights.

Step 4:

A quick shove to push said planet into nearest sun, and then off to Titan for tea and crumpets for a job well done.

[WhiteKnight777]

Simple, simple simple simple. You can have all of the jedi, all of them, EU movies etc. no plot limitations or armor and full standard jedi gear (essentially, their lightsabers). Space Marines get the Daemon Hunters, geared as their chapter would be, including any mechanized divisions and artefacts they're likely to have.

Step 1:

The necessary plot hole opens up, every single jedi anywhere and anytime is ported onto a planet on the 40k side of the pot hole, the gray knights on the opposite side of the planet.

Step 2:

Wait about 3.5 seconds for the Arch Enemy to notice the veritable disturbance in the warp.

Step 3:

Once the Grey Knights stop giggling they move to the other side of the planet and begin cleaning up a very sticky pile of jedi remains and finishing off the lingering daemon hosts and slaanesh/nurgle demonic STD piles. The few jedi strong enough to resist the darkside made manifest and the ensuing blood/ other unseemly fluids bath that follows their arrival are easily dealt with in their tired states by the Knights.

Step 4:

A quick shove to push said planet into nearest sun, and then off to Titan for tea and crumpets for a job well done.

This is actually a very good point. If the fight is in the 40k 'verse, the Jedi are going to get mentally violated by all manner of very, very hungry demons. If it's in the Star Wars verse, suddenly the psychically powered among the Marines can unleash their full potential without worrying about the Warp....

[Raiser Blade]

Who says force powers are in any way connected to the warp?

[Verruckt]

no one did, but minds are, and the 4 gods would probably find minds as powerful as those of the Jedi rather tasty.

[Zenos]

no one did, but minds are, and the 4 gods would probably find minds as powerful as those of the Jedi rather tasty.

Yeah...

If Yoda showed up, would Tzeench or Khorne manifest to have a snack?

[Smeik]

Yeah...

If Yoda showed up, would Tzeench or Khorne manifest to have a snack?

No, as they never show up in person. But many, many of their great demons want to have a word with him...

[Selrahc]

The chaos gods wouldn't notice a thing. Since the jedis aren't psykers they won't create much of a warp presence. Since they don't create much of a warp presence, the chaos gods won't know how powerful they are. Certainly not inside of 4 and a half seconds!

And the jedis have minds which are pretty heavily resistant to chaos. Since they spend their whole lives living to a strict code, which is pretty much the antithesis of Chaos, and they almost universally have high willpower. So they probably won't get possessed easily... otherwise Space Marines should get possessed easily.

I think Space Marines have the definite edge myself, but you shouldn't rely on demons to do the job for them.

[warty goblin]

The Imperium has ways of dealing with psychically powerful individuals. The Officio Assassinorium has some very, very nasty guys with skull helmets who eat psykers alive.

That said, At least on Chapter would annihilate the Jedi with no problem: Grey Knights. every one of 'em is psychically gifted, probably at least on the level of a Padawan, and they carry some extremely nasty weaponry. Their armor is warded against psychic abilities, and their fighting skills are unparalleled.

All that said, it should also be considered that any Jedi fighting a space marine in hand to hand is going to have to invest a significant amount of his Force in just boosting his physical abilities in order to keep up with the ten-foot-tall genetically engineered killing machines, which is going to keep them from using their full force potential on mental attacks.



You don't need depth perception to make someone's skull pop open like a party favor with raw psychic power.

Indeed, see my earlier point about the superiority of a power sword to a light saber. One on one between a Space Marine of reasonable seniority (Sergeant +) with a power sword and a jedi with a light saber, I'd give the fight to the Space Marine, for the following reasons.

1) Space Marines nearly always pack some form of ranged weapon, light saber blocking a bolter shot is not smart, for the same reason standing two feet away from a grenade detonation is not smart.

2) The Space Marine is bigger and far stronger, even without power armor, than the jedi. In power armor he's got massive advantages in protection, strength and endurance.

3) The above strength advantage is even more exaserbated by the difference between a power sword and a light saber. The light saber, lacking any blade mass, will be incrediably difficult to block with against massive weapons that aren't cut in half, like a power sword. Again, think of blocking somebody swinging a wooden baseball bat with a plastic nerf bat. Now add in that the guy with the baseball bat is an olympic class bodybuilder and the guy with the nerf bat is not.

4) Jedi tend not to fight well after losing arms/legs. Astertes just keep on going. If the Jedi gets off a lucky delimbing hit, he'll almost certainly leave himself open against a swordsmen as good as a SM, and the two just can't trade hits and have the Jedi come out on top.

5) The only advantage I'm seeing for the Jedi here is probably speed due to their massless light sabers, but glancing hits won't work to kill somebody in power armor- they need solid torso or head hits.

[puppyavenger]

I'd say the jedi get possesed a bit more than the eldar.
The jedi spend most of their lives focusing their minds
The eldar spend most of their (milenui long) lives learnming how to avoid the detection and defend the mind against chaos.
however the eldar have a chaos god with a large intrest in getting all their souls.

[WhiteKnight777]

The chaos gods wouldn't notice a thing. Since the jedis aren't psykers they won't create much of a warp presence. Since they don't create much of a warp presence, the chaos gods won't know how powerful they are. Certainly not inside of 4 and a half seconds!

And the jedis have minds which are pretty heavily resistant to chaos. Since they spend their whole lives living to a strict code, which is pretty much the antithesis of Chaos, and they almost universally have high willpower. So they probably won't get possessed easily... otherwise Space Marines should get possessed easily.

I think Space Marines have the definite edge myself, but you shouldn't rely on demons to do the job for them.

I don't see how you can say that "Jedi's aren't psykers" Certainly, they're not called such in universe, because the warp doesn't exist there... but let's see... Jedi tap into the semi-sentient energy field that connects all living things. The warp/immaterium is the coterminous dimension that contains the lifeforce/anima/soul reflection of all creatures. They sound fairly tasty to me. Also, anyone with a strong mind shows up in the warp. And though the Jedi might be trained to follow a strict code in general, they're certainly not expecting to have their minds suddenly rushed by lots and lots of hungry ethereal entities. It's something they would simply have no effect against.

I'd also like to point out that the Space Marines would be a lot more willing to start killing, whereas the Jedi are mostly a bunch of space hippies.

[Eita]

Jedi can only do basic mind tricks and push stuff. So... Yeah. Not that powerful compared to psykers.

Also, if a Jedi Master is there, then a Chapter Master or Space Marine Captain is there.

[Neftren]

Okay, lets say there are 10 jedi and 10 marines.

Jedi can do a massive force push and push all the bullets shot at them back at their owners. Or they can do a bunch of deflecting and send laser bolts back. Now if this had more technology, lets give the Jedi a Star Destroyer. Each turbolaser does several metric kilotons worth of just impact. Then we add in the heat from the laser... and well.

[Selrahc]

I don't see how you can say that "Jedi's aren't psykers" Certainly, they're not called such in universe, because the warp doesn't exist there... but let's see... Jedi tap into the semi-sentient energy field that connects all living things. The warp/immaterium is the coterminous dimension that contains the lifeforce/anima/soul reflection of all creatures. They sound fairly tasty to me. Also, anyone with a strong mind shows up in the warp. And though the Jedi might be trained to follow a strict code in general, they're certainly not expecting to have their minds suddenly rushed by lots and lots of hungry ethereal entities. It's something they would simply have no effect against.

They don't tap into the warp. They use the force. So they aren't psykers. So they don't generate a larger presence in the warp. So they don't attract large hordes of daemons eager to force their way into the physical universe using the psyker as a conduit.

And the Chaos beings living in the warp don't mass take over the minds of non psychic people. Because most imperial citizens are fairly lax in their mental defence. Certainly much much more lax than Jedi.


Also, if a Jedi Master is there, then a Chapter Master or Space Marine Captain is there.

Which is one of the reasons they lose even without being mindraped by hordes of daemons.

[Eita]

Okay, lets say there are 10 jedi and 10 marines.

Jedi can do a massive force push and push all the bullets shot at them back at their owners. Or they can do a bunch of deflecting and send laser bolts back. Now if this had more technology, lets give the Jedi a Star Destroyer. Each turbolaser does several metric kilotons worth of just impact. Then we add in the heat from the laser... and well.

Correction Mace Windu can do a massive force push.

Also... WTF? You went straight from just Jedi and SM, to Jedi with SDs and SM with nothing.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Yeah, I've got to say there's not much of a contest, no matter your scale. Remember that 40K was designed with all the Star Wars superweapons in mind, so by definition anything done in Star Wars has at least an analog in the 40K universe.

Additionally, Space Marines would be unaffected by a change of venue, vis-a-vis psykers. Even without Librarians, your typical Space Marine packs firepower (not to mention armor) designed to take out anything George Lucas thought up, and some improvements thereafter. Hell, a chapter of Space Marines could probably take out any massed force in the Star Wars universe, save for your Death Star (though they would be able to easily infiltrate and take over said space station).

But the main reason that this is not a fair fight is that Jedi fight alone (or in very small teams), while Space Marines always fight in squads. Jedi are the warrior-monks, samurai (and now ninja) of the Star Wars Universe, they just don't fight wars. Space Marines are, well, marines, and they tackle the heaviest fighting anywhere. They are War incarnate, they have no other purpose. The same is not true of Jedi.

Now, a better match up might be Jedi vs. Eldar, perhaps even Harlequins. Both have similar philosophies, fighting styles, and use of psychic/force powers.

EDIT: Oh, and how come nobody has even mentioned Terminator armor for goodness sake? Tactical Dreadnought Armor is at least bulkhead grade and it mounts the nastiest weapons the Imperium can think up. A friggin' Assault Cannon is more than enough to settle this debate! :smallbiggrin:

[Eita]

@Termies: We're trying to at least be somewhat fair.

[warty goblin]

Okay, lets say there are 10 jedi and 10 marines.

Jedi can do a massive force push and push all the bullets shot at them back at their owners. Or they can do a bunch of deflecting and send laser bolts back. Now if this had more technology, lets give the Jedi a Star Destroyer. Each turbolaser does several metric kilotons worth of just impact. Then we add in the heat from the laser... and well.

The Space Marines don't use laser weapons as a rule, and deflecting a bolter round will just explode it, which would be the rough equivilant of balancing a grenade on one's hand and lighting it off.

And I'll see your Star Destroyer and raise you a battle barge

[Solo]

How do you deflect a laser bolt?

[Rutee]

The Space Marines don't use laser weapons as a rule, and deflecting a bolter round will just explode it, which would be the rough equivilant of balancing a grenade on one's hand and lighting it off.
Wouldn't it just melt the Bolter round? I mean, the time span between it hitting the saber and it melting seems /too/ small for it to meaningfully discharge it's ammunition.


How do you deflect a laser bolt?
Ask the Jedi; They do it all the time.

[Solo]

The Jedi deflect plasma bolts.

I haven't seen any deflect lasers though.

[Rutee]

Same crap, different day. Honestly, why bother with that?

[warty goblin]

Wouldn't it just melt the Bolter round? I mean, the time span between it hitting the saber and it melting seems /too/ small for it to meaningfully discharge it's ammunition.


Ask the Jedi; They do it all the time.

Bolter rounds are designed to explode inside the target I believe, so exploding pretty much right after impact is sort of what they do. Even if the lightsaber does merely melt the round, it doesn't reduce its momentum, so the Jedi will get spattered with red hot pieces of shrapnel, not fun.

And I'm not entirely convinced that a Jedi could deflect much bolterfire (assuming for a moment that the rounds don't explode when blocked) anyway, since they clearly have trouble with massed blasterfire, which is much much slower than bolterfire, and a space marine squad with attached heavy bolter could pretty easily put out a truly overwhelming amount of firepower, and one missed dodge/parry and the jedi will literally explode.

[warty goblin]

Same crap, different day. Honestly, why bother with that?

The difference is actually fairly important. Plasma (blaster) bolts, particularly in Star Wars, move really rather slowly- they don't require precognition to block, just good reflexes.

Laser beams however move at light speed, so in order to intercept them the Jedi has to be precognizant, which the highest level Jedi can be, but most (correct me if I'm wrong) are not.

We also know that sufficient concentrated fire from weapons visable to the naked eye can kill Jedi, hence it is only reasonable to suppose that considerably less far harder to avoid weaponfire can do the same thing. That's right folks, the Jedi lose to the Imperial Guard.

[Rutee]

Bolter rounds are designed to explode inside the target I believe, so exploding pretty much right after impact is sort of what they do. Even if the lightsaber does merely melt the round, it doesn't reduce its momentum, so the Jedi will get spattered with red hot pieces of shrapnel, not fun.
Well, there /is/ no impact, firstly. More to the point, if it melted the round, it would get the shrapnel inside. While I suppose it'd be a great trick (In the spectator sense) to melt the ammunition case but not the shrapnel (Like the one trick that Penn and Teller do where they set a flag on fire from inside a copy of the constitution, without burning the constitution), I don't see how you could do it on accident.


And I'm not entirely convinced that a Jedi could deflect much bolterfire (assuming for a moment that the rounds don't explode when blocked) anyway, since they clearly have trouble with massed blasterfire, which is much much slower than bolterfire, and a space marine squad with attached heavy bolter could pretty easily put out a truly overwhelming amount of firepower, and one missed dodge/parry and the jedi will literally explode.
This I have no frame of reference for, so I won't contest it; I simply felt it really freaking weird to say they wouldn't destroy what amounts to the entirety of a grenade if they got the outside.

[Rutee]

The difference is actually fairly important. Plasma (blaster) bolts, particularly in Star Wars, move really rather slowly- they don't require precognition to block, just good reflexes.

Laser beams however move at light speed, so in order to intercept them the Jedi has to be precognizant, which the highest level Jedi can be, but most (correct me if I'm wrong) are not.

We also know that sufficient concentrated fire from weapons visable to the naked eye can kill Jedi, hence it is only reasonable to suppose that considerably less far harder to avoid weaponfire can do the same thing. That's right folks, the Jedi lose to the Imperial Guard.

Oh for gods' sakes. The thought didn't occur to you that it's for /the exact same reason/ that you can see bullets or whatnot in movies? Let me find the precise trope name, but good god, man.

[Solo]

Oh for gods' sakes. The thought didn't occur to you that it's for /the exact same reason/ that you can see bullets or whatnot in movies? Let me find the precise trope name, but good god, man.

You can't see bullets in movies unless there's a slow motion scene, or they're using tracer ammunition.


Or at least that's how all the movies I've seen handle it.

[Captain van der Decken]

So every time you see Storm Troopers failing to shoot people, that's in Bullet Time?

[WhiteKnight777]

Okay, lets say there are 10 jedi and 10 marines.

Jedi can do a massive force push and push all the bullets shot at them back at their owners. Or they can do a bunch of deflecting and send laser bolts back. Now if this had more technology, lets give the Jedi a Star Destroyer. Each turbolaser does several metric kilotons worth of just impact. Then we add in the heat from the laser... and well.

Really? Are you sure Jedi can reverse bullets in such a manner? Because telekenetically reversing a projectile traveling at supersonic speeds is probably a lot different than throwing a stationary object.

And, as has already been pointed out, the Warhammer 40k universe is a whole different level from Star Wars. Everything just tends to be more... well.. Metal, I suppose is a good word. Things are just bigger, meaner, tougher, and more powerful. A good example: One rogue Alpha-plus psyker was capable of literally controlling hundreds of people at one time like puppets, while at the same time launching psychic assaults that could instantly kill highly trained troops and inquisitors. Since this is the sort of thing Space Marines deal with, and I don't think that sort of raw power is within the purview of the Jedi Knights, I think we can give this to the Adeptus Astartes.

[Raiser Blade]

Since when does star wars use plasma guns?

The blasters in the movies look like they are shooting lasers to me.

[warty goblin]

Since when does star wars use plasma guns?

The blasters in the movies look like they are shooting lasers to me.

The bit where you see the bolt move from the gun to the target (or, if a stormtrooper's using it, the wall) says that they are not in fact using lasers. In fact, the bit where you see the bolt in space says that they are not using lasers, since if they were, there would be no visable weapons fire between ship, merely explosions as beams hit.

Star Wars calls its weapons 'blasters' but they are described as firing heated gas contained in a magnetic field- aka plasma.

[TheOtherMC]

The bit where you see the bolt move from the gun to the target (or, if a stormtrooper's using it, the wall) says that they are not in fact using lasers. In fact, the bit where you see the bolt in space says that they are not using lasers, since if they were, there would be no visable weapons fire between ship, merely explosions as beams hit.

Star Wars calls its weapons 'blasters' but they are described as firing heated gas contained in a magnetic field- aka plasma.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Blaster

Just read past the word laser first....:smallyuk:

[Oracle_Hunter]

Since when does star wars use plasma guns?

The blasters in the movies look like they are shooting lasers to me.

The wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Star_Wars_ranged_weapons) says otherwise, though you're not alone in thinking those things were laser weapons. I only know 'cause I played the old RPG game, which had an extensive description of Blaster physics.

(EDIT: Ninja'd! :smallfrown:)

And in case anyone cared, Energy Weapons (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EnergyWeapons) for all your TV Troping needs. :smallbiggrin:

In conclusion: Heavy Flamers FTW :smallcool:

[puppyavenger]

If the Jedi get a star destroyer..
What Jedi use star destroyers?
Anyway if the Jedi get a SD than the SM gets a battle barge.
Battle barges come with exterminatus weaponry as standard.
Also if they get windu then the SM get a librarian who opens a portal into the warp and Windu is tortured by the demons for the rest of eternity.

[Zenos]

SM's throw Vortex Grenade. 'Nuff said.

[Rutee]

The wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Star_Wars_ranged_weapons) says otherwise, though you're not alone in thinking those things were laser weapons. I only know 'cause I played the old RPG game, which had an extensive description of Blaster physics.

(EDIT: Ninja'd! :smallfrown:)

And in case anyone cared, Energy Weapons (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EnergyWeapons) for all your TV Troping needs. :smallbiggrin:

In conclusion: Heavy Flamers FTW :smallcool:

While a good entry, it's not what I'm looking for. It's the one about how nothing exists if you can't see it, on TV. It was related to Convection Schonvection and Avoid the Funnel Cloud, but TVTropes refuses to work for me so this is /slightly/ difficult to search for.

Edit: FInally, it had the decency to work;

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfPerception:
Notably..
Lasers are visible to show their path, and may be slowed down so the audience can follow the direction they move.

[Oracle_Hunter]

While a good entry, it's not what I'm looking for. It's the one about how nothing exists if you can't see it, on TV. It was related to Convection Schonvection and Avoid the Funnel Cloud, but TVTropes refuses to work for me so this is /slightly/ difficult to search for.

Edit: FInally, it had the decency to work;

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfPerception:
Notably..
Lasers are visible to show their path, and may be slowed down so the audience can follow the direction they move.

Ah, Rule of Perception (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfPerception). This is what happens when I get lazy with my searches :smallredface:

[Skjaldbakka]

So, how many Space Marine would the following Jedi be worth each:

Yoda
Obi-Wan Kinobi (ep. 1-3)
Obi-Wan Kinobi (ep. 4)
Luke Skywalker (ep. 6)
Mace Windu
Anakin Skywalker (ep. 3)
Darth Vader (ep 4-6)
The Emperor (ep 4-6)

[Illiterate Scribe]

So they aren't psykers. So they don't generate a larger presence in the warp. So they don't attract large hordes of daemons eager to force their way into the physical universe using the psyker as a conduit.

One word for you: Bloodthirsters. They're not psykers, but I'm fairly sure that they have a powerful warp presence :smallwink: .

[Eita]

Bloodthirsters are Daemons, so it really doesn't count.

[Verruckt]

Oh yes, we know that jedi are very powerful and disciplined, which is why they seem to pop off to the darkside with such regularity that why the council even tries stopping them is a mystery. Grey Knights on the other hand... I'd say your average spacemarine has equivalent mental resistance to corruption as a jedi does. The Grey Knights are chosen on 2 criteria: 1, they are individually very powerful psychers, each and every last one of them, 2, they are incorruptible. End of story.

So, we have about 1,000 men who are at base as capable as any jedi master.
In addition they are centuries old, genmodded to the point of inhumanity, and are trained to be nothing less than war gods.
Pile onto that: A lightsaber, a double barreled high velocity micro-grenade machine gun, and a suit Masterwork grade Space Marine power armor that makes a dark trooper look like an unshielded droideka.

That's the least of the Grey Knights.

[Ghast_Eyeson]

Well, the Force makes things difficult to say. Does it work like psychic energy or what? if so, a SM can usually resist it (Psycho-Indoctrination or psychic hoods), if not, it could make things interesting. I see it this way:

Jedi Advantages:
-Maneuverability (Flips, Acrobatics, Etc.)
-Lightsabre
-Training
-Speed
-The Force

SM Advantages:
-Strength
-Protection
-Speed
-Training
-Durability

A jedi that could get in close could win if they managed to hit a joint or the like. But other than decapitation, A jedi probably could not kill a SM in one hit. Further, a SM has a lot of natural protection and weapons. Even an unarmored, unarmed SM is powerful. Super-Strong, Sheet-steel like skin (in the form of a black carapace), instantly cauterizing wounds, super fast, and acid spitting would all help the marine. I don't think a jedi would stand a chance...

[Talkkno]

A jedi that could get in close could win if they managed to hit a joint or the like. But other than decapitation, A jedi probably could not kill a SM in one hit. Further, a SM has a lot of natural protection and weapons. Even an unarmored, unarmed SM is powerful. Super-Strong, Sheet-steel like skin (in the form of a black carapace), instantly cauterizing wounds, super fast, and acid spitting would all help the marine. I don't think a jedi would stand a chance...
Can space marines throw over 20 attacks per second? If not a Jedi could problery block/evade there mellee attacks.

[Eita]

A jedi that could get in close could win if they managed to hit a joint or the like. But other than decapitation, A jedi probably could not kill a SM in one hit. Further, a SM has a lot of natural protection and weapons. Even an unarmored, unarmed SM is powerful. Super-Strong, Sheet-steel like skin (in the form of a black carapace), instantly cauterizing wounds, super fast, and acid spitting would all help the marine. I don't think a jedi would stand a chance...

Err... The Black Carapace is the neural uplink from a Space Marine's brain to his power armor.

[Destro_Yersul]

Can space marines throw over 20 attacks per second? If not Obi-wan could probably block/evade there melee attacks.

Fixed it for you. Obi-wan was the only Jedi with a chance of defeating Grievous, due to his mastery of the most defensive form of lightsaber combat. Most jedi used more agressive forms, which left less room for being defensive. I'd also like to note that Obi-wan almost lost, and would have if there hadn't been a blaster there.

Oh, and 20 attacks per second seems to be an exaggeration. More like 5-6 attacks per second.

[Talkkno]

Fixed it for you. Obi-wan was the only Jedi with a chance of defeating Grievous, due to his mastery of the most defensive form of lightsaber combat. Most jedi used more agressive forms, which left less room for being defensive. I'd also like to note that Obi-wan almost lost, and would have if there hadn't been a blaster there.


Eh, look for the quote I put up earlier, Grievous wins mostly because he scares the *** out of them and surprise, and if he lost it he was supposed to run.

[Wizzardman]

Well, there /is/ no impact, firstly. More to the point, if it melted the round, it would get the shrapnel inside. While I suppose it'd be a great trick (In the spectator sense) to melt the ammunition case but not the shrapnel (Like the one trick that Penn and Teller do where they set a flag on fire from inside a copy of the constitution, without burning the constitution), I don't see how you could do it on accident.

Well, first, you're attempting to destroy an explosive by... heating it up a lot. Depending on the type of explosive used, that's got a pretty decent chance of making it explode, then and there, the instant it touched the blade.

Second, each shot is about the size of your fist, so just blocking it won't do--the Jedi would have to swing completely through each shot, which is far different than they are normally trained to do [i.e. just block the thin shot of laser/plasma/whatever]. As Jedi have to train fairly hard to be able to block blaster shots repeatedly, the change in tactics that requires will cause a lot of problems for them--especially since they have to move fast in order to block the shot. Instincts and reflexes (to simply block it, without having to wave the saber around, and clear it all up) will be fighting with their own thoughts on the subject.

Third, every shot that misses explodes. Right beside the Jedi. Considering how many shots those things fire per second, that's a lot of dodging the Jedi will have to do--while blocking and trying to get into melee. That's a lot of work for your average Jedi.


Can space marines throw over 20 attacks per second? If not a Jedi could problery block/evade there mellee attacks.

Nope. Can most Jedi? No. If we're going to bring in Mace Windu, Kenobi, or any of the various Skywalkers, who are the only Jedi who could pull that off, then the Space Marines should receive assistance from the Primarchs or their Chapter Leaders, who would be able to pull off that many attacks. Easily.

Edit: Blast! Simu-jedi'd.

Also, again, most Jedi aren't as acrobatic as the main heroes of the movies are. Remember how Luke fought Darth Vader on Cloud City? Luke's abilities there are probably the best you'd be able to expect from your average, run of the mill Jedi.

[Solo]

Wait, so you aren't supposed to disable an explosive by slicing it open?

That seems kinda counter-intuitive.

[Talkkno]

Well, first, you're attempting to destroy an explosive by... heating it up a lot. Depending on the type of explosive used, that's got a pretty decent chance of making it explode, then and there, the instant it touched the blade.

Second, each shot is about the size of your fist, so just blocking it won't do--the Jedi would have to swing completely through each shot, which is far different than they are normally trained to do [i.e. just block the thin shot of laser/plasma/whatever].

Third, every shot that misses explodes. Right beside the Jedi. Considering how many shots those things fire per second, that's a lot of dodging the Jedi will have to do--while blocking and trying to get into melee. That's a lot of work for your average Jedi.
Err...It mimicks the effects of heat, but it isn't actulyl heat, just thorwing something in there.
"
Such a tight rapidly spinning charged superconducting field would rend
(tear) through most matter by stripping off electrons which bind atoms
together. The ionized matter about the 'cut', as well as field-excited
atomic movement in the localized area of the 'cut', would mimic great
point-of-contact heat. A wound to a soft-tissue organic being would
appear to be a microscopically thin BURN - and such a wound would
usually tend to be cauterised (depending on how slowly the blade
passed through - a large blood vessel cut too quickly may not be
sufficiently 'burned' to cauterise)."





Also, again, most Jedi aren't as acrobatic as the main heroes of the movies are. Remember how Luke fought Darth Vader on Cloud City? Luke's abilities there are probably the best you'd be able to expect from your average, run of the mill Jedi.

Luke and Vader use Djem So, a form noted for its aggressiveness and emphasis on strength, not for acrobatics. It really depends on what form a Jedi uses, as it can vary a lot.

[Wizzardman]

Wait, so you aren't supposed to disable an explosive by slicing it open?

That seems kinda counter-intuitive.

...

Darn it, Solo! I don't have enough room left in my signature to quote you!


Err...It mimicks the effects of heat, but it isn't actulyl heat, just thorwing something in there.

Really? Funny how it 'melts' the blast door in Episode 1.

Honestly, let's avoid this. We don't need another Star Wars physics argument--they end up going nowhere. Even if the lightsaber can block a few bolter shots, Jedi have always been bad at blocking large amounts of fire.


Luke and Vader use Djem So, a form noted for its aggressiveness and emphasis on strength, not for acrobatics. It really depends on what form a Jedi uses, as it can vary a lot.

Even so, that means few of the Jedi involved will use heavily acrobatic techniques. And not all who use it will be effective with it.

[Destro_Yersul]

Eh, look for the quote I put up earlier, Grievous wins mostly because he scares the *** out of them and surprise, and if he lost it he was supposed to run.

You mean this one?


"If you are to succeed in combat against the best of the Jedi, you must have fear, surprise, and intimidation on your side. For if any one element is lacking, it would be best for you to retreat. You must break them before you engage them. Only then will you ensure victory, and have your trophy."
―Count Dooku to Grievous

I notice it uses the word "Best" in there. I take that to mean Jedi masters, not just regular Jedi. Which is the case in point here. Regular Jedi. If you get masters, the Marines get Librarians, or Terminators with assault cannons. I'd like to see a Jedi block THAT.

[Solo]

...

Darn it, Solo! I don't have enough room left in my signature to quote you!


Clearly we must petition the moderators to allow people more space in their signatures to do justice to my awesomtude.

[Talkkno]

I notice it uses the word "Best" in there. I take that to mean Jedi masters, not just regular Jedi. Which is the case in point here. Regular Jedi. If you get masters, the Marines get Librarians, or Terminators with assault cannons. I'd like to see a Jedi block THAT.

Note, that Obi-Wan is merely a Jedi Consuler, I.E, one not focused on combat, and on negotiation and its like.

[Wizzardman]

Clearly we must petition the moderators to allow people more space int heir signatures to do justice to my awesomitude.

If you start a petition, I'll sign. :smallsmile:


Note, that Obi-Wan is merely a Jedi Consuler, I.E, one not focused on combat, and on negotiation and its like.

He's also, as noted in the movies, one of the two most effective Jedi warriors in the entire galaxy, as well as being a hero, with plot armor that literally guarantees his survival until episode IV. What he can't do, no one can--save maybe Anakin.

[Rutee]

Wait, so you aren't supposed to disable an explosive by slicing it open?

That seems kinda counter-intuitive.

When what you're basically trying to disable is a frag grenade? Yes. The part that hurts isn't the explosion, it's the shrapnel.

Now when they throw incendiary explosives, yes, get the hell out of the way.

[Solo]

When what you're basically trying to disable is a frag grenade? Yes. The part that hurts isn't the explosion, it's the shrapnel.

Now when they throw incendiary explosives, yes, get the hell out of the way.

Space marines have incendiary rounds too, you know.

[Rutee]

Space marines have incendiary rounds too, you know.

I don't think that's a problem as ammunition in a projectile weapon (THINK). I said /explosives/. As in, grenades and whatnot.

[Solo]

I don't think that's a problem as ammunition in a projectile weapon (THINK). I said /explosives/. As in, grenades and whatnot.

A bolter fires .75 caliber rocket propelled rounds that are usually explosive tipped.

Effectively, bolters are handheld rocket launchers.

Does that make them "explosives"?

[warty goblin]

Given that Jedi are all about peace and understanding, I'd imagine that the first contact would go something like this:

Jedi: Hail strange armored dudes! I bring come in peace and wish to learn more about you.

Space Marine Sergeant: Halt in the Glorious name of the Emperor of Mankind!

Jedi: What is this Emperor you speak of? I wish to know mor-eearrg! My sweet precious organs!

Space Marine Sergeant: Eat Chainsword heretic scum!

Jedi 2: Oh my god! But we're PG rated! There's no way *that* was PG, or even PG-13 for the darker feel.

Space Marine Sergeant: Yeah well we're R rated biyotch, and your "darker" themes can sniff my armor's armpit. Scout Marine Huggins! Fetch the Holy Armor Swab. There's heretic all over me.

Scout Marine: At once my Commander.

Space Marine Sergeant: You! Stop being sick and tell me, does the Emperor light your way?

Jedi 2: Empe *chainsword revs*- I mean of course! I was just bringing him in to report him for heresy...?

Space Marine Sergeant: Good man, now go in His Glorious Name and may the heretic fall before you!

[Rutee]

While cute, I'm pretty sure their precog/reflexes would kick in the second he drew.


A bolter fires .75 caliber rocket propelled rounds that are usually explosive tipped.

Effectively, bolters are handheld rocket launchers.

Does that make them "explosives"?
As a matter of fact, it would. I was thinking Incendiary Ammunition would work a bit more like RL, not be a term for rocket launcher.

[tyckspoon]

I don't think that's a problem as ammunition in a projectile weapon (THINK). I said /explosives/. As in, grenades and whatnot.

hmm. Standard bolter round: det-cap on the nose. Behind that is a penetrator core, and packed behind that is the main explosive charge. The intent, I think, is that the det-cap goes off, setting off the main charge, which accelerates the core forward. If it's a soft target, the close-proximity explosion does damage while the core penetrator probably overpenetrates and gives a (relatively) clean and non-damaging wound, although it's still a big chunk of metal punching through a body. That could be the main problem for the Jedi- if the lightsaber isn't powerful enough to completely destroy the penetrator in brief contact, then they have to deal with a fast moving and *hot* chunk of (probably deformed) metal coming at their face after cutting down the bolter shell.

Alternate bolter shells include:
Frag- penetrator core replaced with more explosive, shell casing is thickened a little and scored in order to fragment more easily. Soft-target round, likely choice for trying to shoot down Jedi at least until it is determined whether or not lightsaber defences work well against them.
Incendiary- core and most explosive replaced with Promethium, a napalm like substance that ignites on contact with air. Cutting open this round gives you a glob of fire, still going at high speeds. Either a continued threat or no threat, depending on whether or not a lightsaber can incinerate all the fuel before it reaches the Jedi and if the saber is broad enough to intercept all of the fuel.
Penetration- heavier explosive charge, core replaced with extra-dense version for extra anti-armor power. I think this one has the best chance of having part of the projectile maintain lethality after being swiped at with a saber, what with the extra durable penetration core.
Hellfire- core replaced with a capsule of a hideous mutagenic bioweapon. Casing is ceramic; designed to shatter, releasing a bunch of mutagen-covered shards. Nasty and lethal; I don't know a Jedi would deal with this one. If they're lucky, smacking it with a saber destroys the mutagen.

[WNxHasoroth]

Inquisitor Eisenhorn is capable of throwing attacks that cannot be captured on film. He's a normal un-enhanced human, what does that speak for Space Marines?

So then someone throws up some stupid EU crap about how everyone can drain a planet of its energy. If you pull that sort of stunt in 40k you will either attract a) the Chaos Gods, b) the Ctan or c) (if done on a big enough scale) you'll awake the Enslavers.

I can see force push etc as being to small or not count as Psychic usage, but the stuff the do in EU? Thats got to count.

Anyway, light saber vs bolt round. Bolt round wins. Lets assume that slicing a self propelled explosive in half will disable it. Can you block sixteen of them on rapid fire?

Or how about a power sword? They aren't all metal blades sheathed in energy, Inquisitor Eisenhorn uses a blade that "generates coherent light" with use of a fusion cell.

In short, Space Marines win. One ton, eight foot, tank armored super soldiers with ossified ribs, neural uplinks to their arms and armor, acidic spit, night vision and spare organs beat out pacifist hippies with laser swords.

[Hawriel]

I love jedi and star wars but I also hate how the EU writers have turned them into superman, dark pheonix, lobo, magnito hybrids. Jacen Solo any one. Still super uber Jacen Solo still is junk in the wind when a space marine shows up with a meltagun, meltacannon, flame thrower, plasma rifle or plasma cannon. Armor that will take a hit from force lightnening, will give a lightsaber pause. Then there are the variety of power weapons and shield. And all the rest of it. Sure the Jedi would have star wars blasters, exposives vehicles and what not, but the space marines toys are tougher and dish out more fire power.


edit. PS

forgot blocking shots. Alot of peaple have stated it already but here I go any way. A jedi may block one bolt, but the bolt will not evaporate its moving to fast what is left will get through. Also the heat of the lightsaber will egnight the explosive in the bolt and any propelant left. Might as well block a hand grinade with a lightsaber.

[Verruckt]

Here, a couple sample fights if you will:

Jedi Z, Defensive style, Obi-Wan level skill.
Space Marine A, Assault cannon.

Marine opens fire, lightsaber deflects the first 20 rounds, the next 80 one inch diameter solid slugs rip him limb from limb.

Jedi X, offensive style, makes it into melee combat.
Space Marine B, power fist, meets him in melee combat.

Powerfists are inherently slow weapons, so even without the improved reflexes the Jedi gets first strike. Jedi gets to cut off one appendage of his choice,for the sake of argument the marine has 2 power fists. Marine gets the second move, Jedi takes a couple seconds to realize what was his head is now a burnt sticky mess welded to the marine's fingers.

[Rutee]

Here, a couple sample fights if you will:

Jedi Z, Defensive style, Obi-Wan level skill.
Space Marine A, Assault cannon.

Marine opens fire, lightsaber deflects the first 20 rounds, the next 80 one inch diameter solid slugs rip him limb from limb.

Jedi X, offensive style, makes it into melee combat.
Space Marine B, power fist, meets him in melee combat.

Powerfists are inherently slow weapons, so even without the improved reflexes the Jedi gets first strike. Jedi gets to cut off one appendage of his choice,for the sake of argument the marine has 2 power fists. Marine gets the second move, Jedi takes a couple seconds to realize what was his head is now a burnt sticky mess welded to the marine's fingers.
Or just deflect the entire stream of fire? It's not like a spray of autofire is actually 20 seperate attacks; It's all coming from the same direction and should be using an extremely similar vector/point of origin.

[Destro_Yersul]

Sweep the assault cannon back and forth. There are now several hundred bullets headed at the jedi, all with slightly different trajectories and all fired within a few milliseconds of each other.

Block THAT.

[Rutee]

Sweep the assault cannon back and forth. There are now several hundred bullets headed at the jedi, all with slightly different trajectories and all fired within a few milliseconds of each other.

Block THAT.

ASide from a force shield, I already accoutned for that. Hence, the comment on "Similar trajectories" as opposed to "Identical".

[Wizzardman]

Or just deflect the entire stream of fire? It's not like a spray of autofire is actually 20 seperate attacks; It's all coming from the same direction and should be using an extremely similar vector/point of origin.

Right, right, and your theory would be great except that in the films, mass fire from merely two or three stormtrooper-equivalents give the Jedi problems. Destroyer droids fired their dual weapons fairly slowly compared to a bolter, and yet the Jedi had trouble blocking all of their shots.

And the 'autofire is one attack' argument only works in D&D. The bullets being sprayed at you have similar trajectories, yes, but each one can be up to several inches apart vertically, and feet apart horizontally and timewise. Sure, they're near each other, but they aren't arriving at the same time, and they don't arrive in a nice, easy to block pattern. And considering the Jedi has to block each and every bolt with a blade that's about 1 inch wide, and thus has to move the blade each time to block each bolt no matter how spread out the bolts are, they might as well be separate attacks.

The Jedi has to move the lightsaber to block each one--he can't just hold the blade in place and expect to hold the blasts off (as demonstrated in the films, whenever a Jedi fights anyone with an autofire blaster), and so each shot requires about as much energy, effort, and time to block as an equal number of shots from individual weapons.

Really, autofire is the only reason why Jedi ever got killed by battledroids. Space Marine autofire is much worse--at least blaster fire will ricochet, and not explode if it misses.

[Fay Graydon]

It all depends on whether the space marines are fluff based.
if they are, that makes them, effectivly, unkillable.
but still the jedi do have niffty force powers and are incredably adgile(?spelling).
Hard one to call, but seeing as i hate the space marines (I'm a chaos fan) i'm gonna go with the jedi.

[Eita]

Fluff Marines are killable. Remember the whole "If the Bell of Terra were to ring for each Space Marine who died it would toll itself hoarse." thing?

[Oslecamo]

ASide from a force shield, I already accoutned for that. Hence, the comment on "Similar trajectories" as opposed to "Identical".


In the movies jedis have trouble blocking a few dozen lasers from mindless droids. I really don't see how well will they fare against several hundred bullets. Mind you, we're talking about heavy bolter fire here. Those bullets are BIG. The best you can do will be to partially melt the round and be hit by molten burning metal.

But ok. The jedis are immune to projectiles. The marines bring their flamers, wich it's what they would bring against lightly armored melee enemies anyway. Block raging flames with a laser stick, please.

Or rocket launchers. Or laser cannons. They all fire things that are bigger than lightsabers and can kill whitout hiting the jedi, thus being quite hard to block.


Also, space marine heros have faith shields. Their own will is so strong it can actually deflect bullets, lasers and whatnot.

Finnally, jedis are awfully outnumbered. From what I see in the movies anf fluff, there are only a few hundred jedis in the entire galaxy, while space marines count themselves in the thousands.

[Verruckt]

Fluff Marines are killable. Remember the whole "If the Bell of Terra were to ring for each Space Marine who died it would toll itself hoarse." thing?

right, but considering what they have to fight daily, that's not exactly surprising.

If all they had to fight were Jedi knights, the bell would ring like, twice.

Edit: I just had an extremely amusing mental image of the look on a Jedi's face when a Las Cannon round plows straight through his lightsaber and leaves a smoking hole where his torso used to be :smallbiggrin: .

[Ossian]

Lo and despair. Too bad I missed this thread from post 1. I'm really a pro jedi, but I realize that they are also tragic heroes, while SMs are professional lives enders and butchers of armies of aliens 10x more wicked than Scott's and Cameron's Xenomorphs.

The Vs thread, IMHO, are not destined to go anywhere near a satisfactory ending (especially in a Group Vs Group contest) without a proper scenario. Jedis are Guardians of Peace, not soldiers. While a pimp J.Master can take down a freighter with telekinesis (and land it on a whole chapter) that definitely is not the average joe the jedi.

Full scale field battle? Sweet...Ground goes to the Marines, and quickly. With vehicles? Hmmm...possibly the Sm experience a few unconsequential casualties.

Small band stumbles upon small band in a cramped dungeon/space hulk? Hmmm...I see lightsaber and jedi tricks of speed and close combat fight deal some damage. Perhaps the Jedis escape with their lives.

Jedis have to steal gizmo from the Chapter's HQs? Hmmm...lvely. they can do it.

SM attack the Temple with fully prepared Jedis and all the Masters there? Argh...the lame clone troopers made it, guess that the SM can make it too..

[Destro_Yersul]

ASide from a force shield, I already accoutned for that. Hence, the comment on "Similar trajectories" as opposed to "Identical".

Aside from a force shield nothing is stopping that. While the Jedi blocks the first shot the other 49 shots are busy shredding him into fleshy lumps.

[Eita]

Lo and despair. Too bad I missed this thread from post 1. I'm really a pro jedi, but I realize that they are also tragic heroes, while SMs are professional lives enders and butchers of armies of aliens 10x more wicked than Scott's and Cameron's Xenomorphs.

The Vs thread, IMHO, are not destined to go anywhere near a satisfactory ending (especially in a Group Vs Group contest) without a proper scenario. Jedis are Guardians of Peace, not soldiers. While a pimp J.Master can take down a freighter with telekinesis (and land it on a whole chapter) that definitely is not the average joe the jedi.

Full scale field battle? Sweet...Ground goes to the Marines, and quickly. With vehicles? Hmmm...possibly the Sm experience a few unconsequential casualties.

Small band stumbles upon small band in a cramped dungeon/space hulk? Hmmm...I see lightsaber and jedi tricks of speed and close combat fight deal some damage. Perhaps the Jedis escape with their lives.

Jedis have to steal gizmo from the Chapter's HQs? Hmmm...lvely. they can do it.

SM attack the Temple with fully prepared Jedis and all the Masters there? Argh...the lame clone troopers made it, guess that the SM can make it too..

Dude, a Chapter's Stronghold is the most guarded place in the sector. The Chief Librarian is often there, leaving any chance to disguise themselves ineffectual.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Quite possibly from a Battlefield HQ, or one of the many, many, Black Templar little rubbish forts.

Also, I'm not an internet swordsman (literally half the people I have ever conversed with on the internet claim to have badass martial skills with the sabre, epee, or katana), but isn't the ability to block reliant on strength as well as speed?

A space marine wielding a powersword, even one-handed, is probably going to be able to just stove their way through most of the lightsaber blocks open to humanoid Jedi.

[WNxHasoroth]

block reliant on strength as well as speed?

Yeah, but agilities needed to get the sword in place to block xD

Beginner with the epee here :P

[Oslecamo]

Also don't forget the strongest space marines of history, like Horus or the Emperor himself were able to do some strong stuff, like literally eradicating an enemy(body and soul) from existence with just a tought.

Jedis aren't exactly battlefield soldiers. They are more like "pretend to be regular guy" and sneack behind enemy lines to attack vulnerable spots(like generators or leaders), or perform as professional bodyguards to said vulnerable spots.


At least, it seems like whenever a lot of jedis team up to take down an enemy, it's the jedis that end up screwed.

[warty goblin]

Yeah, but agilities needed to get the sword in place to block xD

Beginner with the epee here :P

Space Marines, at least those not wearing Terminator Armor, are I believe pretty agile, and unlike Jedi, can use their entire bodies as weapons (helo, power armor punch...)

[Talkkno]

In the movies jedis have trouble blocking a few dozen lasers from mindless droids. I really don't see how well will they fare against several hundred bullets. Mind you, we're talking about heavy bolter fire here. Those bullets are BIG. The best you can do will be to partially melt the round and be hit by molten burning metal.

.

Ugh...."Few dozen" such a misconspection, go frame by frame when a B-2 goes full auto, its at least several hundred shots per second.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Full scale field battle? Sweet...Ground goes to the Marines, and quickly. With vehicles? Hmmm...possibly the Sm experience a few unconsequential casualties.

Small band stumbles upon small band in a cramped dungeon/space hulk? Hmmm...I see lightsaber and jedi tricks of speed and close combat fight deal some damage. Perhaps the Jedis escape with their lives.

Jedis have to steal gizmo from the Chapter's HQs? Hmmm...lvely. they can do it.

I think the small-scale conflicts raise the most interesting question, personally.

If we were to "port" Jedi to 40K stats, they would have power-sword equivalents (possibly with strength enhancement, but probably not) which would effectively nullify power armor. Yes, they could take Storm Shields or something for the invulnerable save (and characters would have fancier gear, naturally) which balances things somewhat.

But what about Jedi physical stats? I'd give them (basic Jedi) at least WS 4, with Masters at 5-6, but more importantly, high natural initiative. I 4 is Space Marine (I think) and probably with Force awareness, Jedi might have I 5-6 as well. This means that, provided no charging, Jedi would get the first attack, and could probably take a Marine out like that.

But if the Marine gets an attack back, the Jedi is squished. No armor save, Toughness of 3? Doesn't stand a chance, even if the Marine needs to roll 5's to hit.

But again, that assumes one-on-one with no chance for shooting. Squad battles or fights on open fields have to go to Marines - you just can't "deflect" a supersonic light artillery shell, with a proximity fuse. One explosion near you and suddenly your face is full of burning shrapnel (or inferno sauce, or acid, or whatever they're loading today). And Space Marines will Rapid Fire you in the face before you close to close combat.

As for the "Raid" mission, I don't think even Jedi Masters would be able to make it through to anything important. Space Marines are smarter than Stormtroopers, and the Imperium is one of the most paranoid forces imaginable. Maybe an isolated firebase somewhere random, but a Chapterhouse? Nah.

[Ghast_Eyeson]

The Black Carapace, while being a neural interface, also hardens, making a punch to an unarmored marine similar to a punch to sheet metal.

And if we're going for all resources here (planet draining force powers and whatnot), I give you several Marine Options:

Any 40K Ship. A SM strike cruiser is approx 3 KM long, and is one of the smaller Marine vessels. Also capable of destroying a planet through a number of means.

Vortex grenade: Opens a portal into the warp, sucking anything near it into the warp, killing them instantly.

A marine can also survive a grenade blast quite easily. All he has to do is pull the pin on a fragmentation grenade and throw himself on the jedi. Or he hoses himself in fire and attacks.

And are we only talking loyalist Marines? A jedi vs. a deathguard or beserker would be messy....

[Ossian]

I see some unfairness going on.... :smallfrown: :smallfrown:

SM and the Imperium are just so much darker and edgier (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DarkerAndEdgier) compared to Star Wars.

This is just not....right! Oh, come on!

Jedis and their enemies were written by George Lucas! this is like running the 100 meters sprint with a spear in your shoulders!!!

[Lorn]

But what about Jedi physical stats? I'd give them (basic Jedi) at least WS 4, with Masters at 5-6, but more importantly, high natural initiative. I 4 is Space Marine (I think) and probably with Force awareness, Jedi might have I 5-6 as well. This means that, provided no charging, Jedi would get the first attack, and could probably take a Marine out like that.

But if the Marine gets an attack back, the Jedi is squished. No armor save, Toughness of 3? Doesn't stand a chance, even if the Marine needs to roll 5's to hit.
I'd have thought your average Jedi more equal to an Aspect Warrior, to be honest. For the purposes of arguement, let's say:

Average Jedi:
WS 5 (force reflexes)
BS 5 (force helps)
S 4 (force strength)
T 3 (still human)
W 1 (IG commanders can have three, so let's be fair here)
I 6 (force reflexes)
A 4 (if they're using an agressive style of combat, they will get a lot of attacks)
Ld 9 (know when to run)

Plus, an Inv. save of 4+ in the same fashion as the Assassins in the Inquisition - essentially a dodge save.

Jedi Master:
WS 6 (force reflexes)
BS 6 (force helps)
S 5 (force strength)
T 4 (still human)
W 3 (IG commanders can have three, so let's be fair here)
I 7 (force reflexes)
A 5 (if they're using an agressive style of combat, they will get a lot of attacks)
Ld 10 (know when to run)

3+ invunerable save.

Let's say the lightsabers hit at S5 (shooting OR assault), allowing them to take out tanks, ignore armour, and can be used as a range weapon with a range of 12" (can move and fire, cannot assault and fire.) Give the Jedi a blaster as well - same stats as a hellgun.

Let's then give them a couple of force powers - Force Push, Mind Trick, Jump, and Force Speed.

Push works as Sanctuary but can only be used in assault - all enemies within 2" are immediately moved to out of 2". If they're blocked in, everything else moves as well. They cannot move in or shoot the Jedi next turn.

Jump allows the Jedi to move for his next turn as if he has a jump pack. Used in the Movement phase instead of moving.

Speed allows the Jedi to move (normal movement and/or assault) twice normal distance. Cast turn before instead of moving.

Mind Trick is used on one model; both the Jedi and the enemy model roll one dice and add it to their leadership. If the enemy model wins, nothing happens. If the Jedi wins, that model is treated as under Jedi control for two turns or until it makes a successful Leadership test (whichever sooner.) Range of 6", used in Shooting phase. Cannot be used in assault under any circumstances.
If the enemy model attacks another of its own side in assault, then the two models count as being in assault till one dies.
This ability cannot be used on enemy named characters or anything with Ld 10 or above and does NOT affect vehicles. It can also only be used every other turn.

Those stats should just about cover a Jedi, to be honest. I mean, I've had 40K games involving a Gretchin surviving a direct hit from a lascannon; the rules don't cover every eventuality. And those rules are pretty basic, I just thought them up now. May be overpowered.


In short, the Marines would win at a range. No question. In close, though... it may be a very different story.

[Hallavast]

Depends on the skills and force powers of the Jedi. Jedi skilled in energy negation can mitigate pretty much anything shot at them. A jedi skilled in Form V (shien) is going to have a lot better time against opponents with ranged weapons.

Jedi guardians (blue lightsabers) are in general more combat savvy than Jedi consulars (green lightsabers). Jedi lightsaber combat Forms I, II, and IV, Are all weak against "blasters" and similar ranged weapon attacks. Forms III and V, however are particularly well suited agianst them.

I don't know much about space marines, but I know that a force of Jedi similar to the one on the Battle of Geonosis would be creamed by them.

Jedi aren't really trained to fight in large units. They make much better support and commanders than traditional soldiers.

[Robz_defheadz]

hmmm an interesting question

I'd have to go with the marines for a simple reason.

Marine squads regulary employ flamers and rocket launchers, two types of weapon jedi in the films seem to have no counter against

[Hallavast]

hmmm an interesting question

I'd have to go with the marines for a simple reason.

Marine squads regulary employ flamers and rocket launchers, two types of weapon jedi in the films seem to have no counter against

Can you say energy negation? Darth Vader episode V. Han Solo shoots him, and he uses the force to negate the damage. Same with fire or explody boomers of death.

[sikyon]

Can you say energy negation? Darth Vader episode V. Han Solo shoots him, and he uses the force to negate the damage. Same with fire or explody boomers of death.

Actually the blaster bounces off his armor, if you look closely it impacts his armor and you can see it impacting the wall after it's deflected.

I'd give this to space marines, but only because bolters are magnitudes greater in firepowre than blasters. In close combat, a lightsaber jedi could probably school a standard space marine, and kill a sergeant with a power weapon breaking only a minor sweat. Jedi are pretty good close combat. The force empowers their movments as well, giving them enhanced strength/speed/stamina/clairvoyance. They simply have better reactions than space marines, who already have amazing reactions. It's like spider-man vs wolverine, wolverine may have amazing reflexs but spider-man has spider sense and you can't react faster than if the other person knows what you are going to do before you do it.

The problem is ranged combat. Lightsabers can't deflect bolter rounds, as bolt shells have a tendancy to explode (shooting shrapnel) considering that they are actually small armor-pericing gernades. This takes away the jedi's ability to close effectivly with their enemy.

So basically:

In CC: Jedi win, due to superior reflexs, lightsabers and the force granting them clairvoyance and boosting all their physical abilities

In shooting: Space marines >> Jedi

In war: Without overwhelming CC numbers the shooters tend to win.

It also depends heavily on terrain. Jedi would probably win in a forest, considering ambushes, but space marines would probably win in a savanah. ETC.

[Verruckt]

Can you say energy negation? Darth Vader episode V. Han Solo shoots him, and he uses the force to negate the damage. Same with fire or explody boomers of death.

Las Cannon > E-11

Heavy Flamer > E-11

Heavy Melta >>> E-11

A heavy melta would turn even Vader into a melted black puddle of plastic and evil.

And all of those are Man-Portable space marine weapons.
They pale in comparison to the things they can mount on vehicles:

Hurricane bolters (6 fire-linked heavy bolters in a stack)
Cyclone rockets
Hellfire rockets
Plasma Cannon
Twin linked las cannons
Twin Linked assault cannons
Twin Linked (Pretty much anything)


the list goes on, but any of the above would easily fry any Jedi unfortunate enough to get in the way.

[Oracle_Hunter]

I'd have thought your average Jedi more equal to an Aspect Warrior, to be honest. For the purposes of arguement, let's say: *snip*

4 base attacks is a bit much for a basic Jedi. I mean, the Avatar of Khaine, God of War, has (if I recall) 4-5 attacks. Exarchs only have 2, and they spend multiple lifetimes perfecting their skills. I'd give 3 at most, then 4 for the Master.

I don't know about that "Force Strength" though. Has anyone used the Force to enhance their physical strength?

The invulnerable saves are also a bit high. Yes precognition, but the 4+ assassin save is based on brutal training and various other enhancements. Jedi don't actually seem to do much combat training outside of swordplay. I'd say 5+ for Jedi, 4+ for Masters - or just a 4+ base Force Save.

The Lightsaber stats are a bit hardcore. Why not use Witchblade rules - always wounds on a 4+, triple strength against vehicles. I can't support ranged lightsaber attacks though - it's silly on the Sword of Khaine, and there's no support in Star Wars fluff. Yes, allow them a blaster (Hellpistol) for balance reasons, but note that Lightsabers are two-handed weapons.

Finally: Mind Trick cannot work for 2 turns. That's ludicrously overpowered, even with all the balancing things thrown in. I'd say ditch Mind Trick altogether, since no Jedi has used it in the middle of a combat setting, and it's not quite Dominate Person.

If you want to keep it around, save it as a special rule for Raid Missions (only usable by Masters) to "nullify" a sentry for one turn, with an 18" range.

Otherwise, I'm impressed - that's a pretty good statting-out, and it gives the Jedi a ghost of a chance.

[Lorn]

^ Obi Wan, in the ROTS book (though also noticeable in the film) - when he ahs the force "flowing through" him he's almost godlike. In the film, he literally bends Grievous' chest plates backwards with his bare hands, which kind of suggests that the force is involved. I see no reason why others can't do the same; the books are full of stuff that suggests the Force enchances a Jedi's strength.

Aside from that, I would give the saber Witchblade stats - but then again, Witchblades (last time I read the Eldar 'dex, which was admittedly previous edition...) allowed armour saves. Meanwhile, in the films, sabers slice battle droids in half with absolutely no effort.

As far as Mind Trick goes, have you played Jedi Academy? It's overpowered, but it can serve as a distraction for a reasonable length of time (enabling the jedi to close in) so it does have a combat use - though probably overpowered in the rough stats up there.

Again with Jedi Academy, saber throw. Vader also uses this in ROTJ. It's not longrange though, and I can't see it being used too often (bit dodgy leaving oneself 12" away from Marines.)

Agreed about most of the other stuff, I drew those stats up half an hour after I woke up :p

[Oracle_Hunter]

^ Obi Wan, in the ROTS book (though also noticeable in the film) - when he ahs the force "flowing through" him he's almost godlike. In the film, he literally bends Grievous' chest plates backwards with his bare hands, which kind of suggests that the force is involved. I see no reason why others can't do the same; the books are full of stuff that suggests the Force enchances a Jedi's strength.

Fair enough - I honestly wasn't sure of the force boosting. Maybe we'd want to save it for Masters though, since the above sound like The Power of Plot Compels Me, rather than routine Jedi powers.


Aside from that, I would give the saber Witchblade stats - but then again, Witchblades (last time I read the Eldar 'dex, which was admittedly previous edition...) allowed armour saves. Meanwhile, in the films, sabers slice battle droids in half with absolutely no effort.

Yeah... that's true though you could argue that the Droids are, in fact, lightly armored but have high toughness (they do look kind of spindley after all). Lightsabers are good and all, but 4+ wounds with no Armor Save is pretty hardcore still. Yeah they are awesome, but maybe not that awesome. How about giving them Choppa powers - no armor saves higher than 4+?


As far as Mind Trick goes, have you played Jedi Academy? It's overpowered, but it can serve as a distraction for a reasonable length of time (enabling the jedi to close in) so it does have a combat use - though probably overpowered in the rough stats up there.

After reading the Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_Trick) I still think you would get the most use of this out of a Raid Mission. If you want to use it for actual combat, it would have to be more resistible, or require greater focus by the Jedi.

Perhaps to gain control of a single model, you must Mind War it, and this takes place during the movement phase (so you cannot move the Jedi unit if you want to use this power). Yes, that makes it fairly useless, unless you take control of the plasma gunner and he shoots his commander :smallbiggrin:


Again with Jedi Academy, saber throw. Vader also uses this in ROTJ. It's not longrange though, and I can't see it being used too often (bit dodgy leaving oneself 12" away from Marines.)

Agreed about most of the other stuff, I drew those stats up half an hour after I woke up :p

12" is pretty long, and I think it'd be silly to see a squad of Jedi throw their sabers, return them, and then move back 6" to throw on the next turn. It seems more like a desperation/flashy move and not something I'd like to codify. If you must have it, make it a Move or Fire ability (that is, Heavy 1, 12") so that it would be a desperation move.

[Midnighter1021]

The only real experience I have with SM is in the 40k game for PC ( which by the way i really thought was awful) and i really think the only way that the jedi could really beat them would be through guerrilla tactics and ambushing them so they would be forced into close quarters, like in a building or a very confining alleyway ( very small streets in europe as an example), I do think that the main masters ( Yoda, Kenobi, Windu, etc) would be a decent match to the heroes, that i know of because of my lack of experience with the subject, that the SMs could get in a moments notice.

[Wizzardman]

^ Obi Wan, in the ROTS book (though also noticeable in the film) - when he ahs the force "flowing through" him he's almost godlike. In the film, he literally bends Grievous' chest plates backwards with his bare hands, which kind of suggests that the force is involved. I see no reason why others can't do the same; the books are full of stuff that suggests the Force enchances a Jedi's strength.

But again, that's primarily Obi-Wan, and any Jedi who tries to beat a Space Marine by Force-enhanced physical strength has a lot of catching up to do.

[Hallavast]

Las Cannon > E-11

Heavy Flamer > E-11

Heavy Melta >>> E-11

A heavy melta would turn even Vader into a melted black puddle of plastic and evil.

And all of those are Man-Portable space marine weapons.
They pale in comparison to the things they can mount on vehicles:

Hurricane bolters (6 fire-linked heavy bolters in a stack)
Cyclone rockets
Hellfire rockets
Plasma Cannon
Twin linked las cannons
Twin Linked assault cannons
Twin Linked (Pretty much anything)


the list goes on, but any of the above would easily fry any Jedi unfortunate enough to get in the way.

"The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the force." -Vader

[warty goblin]

"The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the force." -Vader

Given certain Jedi's performance in Ep. 3, the power of the force is insignificant next to the power of three blaster rifles on full auto.

[Oslecamo]

"The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the force." -Vader

Other famous Vader quotes:

"Don't worry, dear, I'll protect you."-Anakin, to his wife

"We can't kill Palpatine!"-Anakin, shortly before condeming millions of inocents to death

"NOOOOOOOO"-Anakin, before geting 3 limbs chopped off.

"(muffled voice sound)"-Vader, with the best technlogy of the empire.

"The dark side is too strong"-Vader, shortly before betraying his dark master and redeeming himself.

Seriously, the guy is no sage. I would say he must have a wisdom of 5. I wouldn't take much of anything he says.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Fair enough - I honestly wasn't sure of the force boosting. Maybe we'd want to save it for Masters though, since the above sound like The Power of Plot Compels Me, rather than routine Jedi powers.

Yeah... that's true though you could argue that the Droids are, in fact, lightly armored but have high toughness (they do look kind of spindley after all). Lightsabers are good and all, but 4+ wounds with no Armor Save is pretty hardcore still. Yeah they are awesome, but maybe not that awesome. How about giving them Choppa powers - no armor saves higher than 4+?

After reading the Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_Trick) I still think you would get the most use of this out of a Raid Mission. If you want to use it for actual combat, it would have to be more resistible, or require greater focus by the Jedi.

Perhaps to gain control of a single model, you must Mind War it, and this takes place during the movement phase (so you cannot move the Jedi unit if you want to use this power). Yes, that makes it fairly useless, unless you take control of the plasma gunner and he shoots his commander :smallbiggrin:

12" is pretty long, and I think it'd be silly to see a squad of Jedi throw their sabers, return them, and then move back 6" to throw on the next turn. It seems more like a desperation/flashy move and not something I'd like to codify. If you must have it, make it a Move or Fire ability (that is, Heavy 1, 12") so that it would be a desperation move.

Inquisitor might be a better system to model this in, since it doesn't involve as many abstractions. I'll dig out my books, although I can say that things will be grim for the Jedi.

[Inhuman Bot]

jedi vs. Space marines? we all lose. one problem though, is that would power armor be able to block lightsabers, or terminator armor for that matter? and would the space marines be vulnerable to force powers? it sort of like a psion vs. a wizard.

[Fuzzy_Juan]

Do note that force enhanced strength has been a staple of more than just the RotS book. In the d20 star wars rpg the force could be used to boost strength and dex, a holdover from other books and the saying that a jedi's 'strength' flows from the force...perhaps metaphorically...perhaps literally.

The stats on the jedi and the masters seem about right, maybe 3 and 4 for the number of attacks for knights and masters...+1 if you give them 2 or a double bladed lightsaber :smallbiggrin:

I would have the lightsabers be the same as the c'tan blade, or warscythe. Their precognitive ability combined with the nature of the blade would make an atatck that no armor could defeat, only getting outskilled (missing the roll).

Perhaps for 'force jump' just give them 'leaping', and have force speed just give them fleet and a 12" charge when they use fleet.

I do think that in a 40k game jedi knights and masters would be better represented as independant characters that can join squads.

Perhaps infiltrate (as part of their mind trick) even if scenario doesn't allow, and an array of 'force powers' that represent the individuals way of fighting (easiest to use existing powers at the same cost). Say, knights get 1 power free and can buy another and masters get 2 and can buy a third. The powers would be akin to current powers...Psychic scream/the horror (force fear effect/mind control), warp blast (force lightning), wrath of the emporer (whatever the small blast is, simulate force push), Veil of Time (battle meditation, precog stuff), toxic miasma (telekinetic storm)...stuff like that.

With those stats...measure jedi against marines and then things will probably seem more equal...

Knights would be about what...40-50 pts +powers...masters would be 100 or so + powers. In combat they would be a real menace and change the corse of battle...but alone in the open they are vulnerable to massed fire.

Maybe a special rule that says any energy based weapon that wasn't heavy uses the 'get's hot' rule when fired at a jedi to simulate their ability to redirect fire from blasters...pretty much only effects las guns and las pistols. Not too important, a guard hoser...but very inportant for fluff.:smallwink:

[Talkkno]

Maybe a special rule that says any energy based weapon that wasn't heavy uses the 'get's hot' rule when fired at a jedi to simulate their ability to redirect fire from blasters...pretty much only effects las guns and las pistols. Not too important, a guard hoser...but very inportant for fluff.:smallwink:

What about plasma weapons?

[Ghast_Eyeson]

There's no way even a strength enhanced lightsaber strike could breach terminator armor. A single stab through definitely, but little more. Tactical Dreadnought Armor (Terminators for short) is designed specifically to take fire from ship-based weapons, tank/artillery fire, etc.

The Obvious disadvantage of the Termie would be speed. A normal marine could probably keep up with a jedi, while a termie is slowed brutally by his armor. Of course, The terminator has access to things like Assault Cannons and Heavy Flame Throwers...

[Oracle_Hunter]

*snip*

Those are 2nd Edition Assassin levels of special rules! While we're at it, we should give them a good ol' D66 table for random Force effects before the battle.

This is exactly what happens when Lucas tries to make even more cash off his Universe, but everyone only wants to play Jedi.

I don't recall the rules for C'Tan blades, but I'm sure they're hella-cheesy (boo Necrons! And Assassins!) so maybe we should use them. After all, the poor Jedi need all the help they can get :smallbiggrin:

EDIT:

There's no way even a strength enhanced lightsaber strike could breach terminator armor. A single stab through definitely, but little more. Tactical Dreadnought Armor (Terminators for short) is designed specifically to take fire from ship-based weapons, tank/artillery fire, etc.

The Obvious disadvantage of the Termie would be speed. A normal marine could probably keep up with a jedi, while a termie is slowed brutally by his armor. Of course, The terminator has access to things like Assault Cannons and Heavy Flame Throwers...

Now, let's not overplay the power of Terminator Armor. It's a 3(?)+/5+ Invulnerable Armor - very strong, yes, but not AV 20 stuff. Remember that a standard power weapon, even when swung by a Tau, automatically bypasses that 3+ save (and a 5+ save isn't so much fun, believe you me).

That's why I'm in favor of Lightsabers as Power Weapons. On reflection, I think giving them the 4+ To Wound / 3x STR to penetrate is fair enough - making them phase blades is probably a bit too far.

[warty goblin]

In game, which is to say, massively nerfed yes. In fluff, not so much...

[Fuzzy_Juan]

What about plasma weapons?

plasma weapons get hot anyways...though you must be referring to the tau then...not sure...depends on how they fluff the tech working. Loose plasma would be more akin to a flamer blast, but a cohesive plasma ball might be deflected due to the charge...hard to say.


Those are 2nd Edition Assassin levels of special rules! While we're at it, we should give them a good ol' D66 table for random Force effects before the battle.

This is exactly what happens when Lucas tries to make even more cash off his Universe, but everyone only wants to play Jedi.

I don't recall the rules for C'Tan blades, but I'm sure they're hella-cheesy (boo Necrons! And Assassins!) so maybe we should use them

c'tan blades are the same ones used for the necron lord warscythe...a weapon that allows for no save invulnerable or otherwise and gets 2d6 against vehicles to penetrate armor...I think.

Making homebrew jedi in 40k wouldn't be too much more than having independant psykers running around. Librarians have a nice big list of powers the can use, hive tyrants and other tyranids have an even larger list of special abilities psychic and biomorphic. A list of standard 'special abilities' that all jedi have plus a short list of 6-8 special powers that represent the individual's specializations aren't too over the top. And besides...in a 40k game...most everything would be equalled out by the point cost of any such model. While a jedi woud be fairly expensive, especially a master, they would be very strong. On par with other independant characters gamewise, and still subject to heavy weapons and force weapons, monsterous creatures, psychic powers...the whole shebang...

For the power level comparison...I think that would make them in the TT game about equal to where I think the theoretical debate is. Standard knights outclass standard marines, equal to low ranking SM commanders with force powers who have yet to reach their potential...these knights are hellish in close, and capable of deflecting fire, but will fall if pressed by too many or from a lucky shot. They are good, but still only human...and no real match for the strongest of the imperium...A master however is a holy terror, capable of feats that would make the librarians pause...able to stand toe to toe with the strongest in the universe...maybe win...maybe not...but give them a fight.

In the fluff, a force commander or librarian can mow through dozens or even hundereds of foes...in fluff a jedi master can do the same...in the game a force commander or librarian alone can get cut down by a single squad on a bad roll or two...might as well stat the jedi as such.

Hmm...I wonder how those jedi would fare in a game of 40k...Star Wars(mageknight inspired game, or normal minis) miniatures would be about the right size...would be fun to figure out some fair point costs and use a few. Paint up some guardsmen...Use IST painted like clone troopers led by jedi...now that would be fun.

[Eita]

Juan, it's already been done (http://www.fightingtigersofveda.com/fitr2a.html).

[Fuzzy_Juan]

Juan, it's already been done (http://www.fightingtigersofveda.com/fitr2a.html).

it's been done by more people than that...but still...for a fun home game(non-tourney) it would be a blast to tweak out some homebrew rules for 'actual' jedi and use them. It would be fun...you have to admit that.

[Hallavast]

Other famous Vader quotes:

"Don't worry, dear, I'll protect you."-Anakin, to his wife

"We can't kill Palpatine!"-Anakin, shortly before condeming millions of inocents to death

"NOOOOOOOO"-Anakin, before geting 3 limbs chopped off.

"(muffled voice sound)"-Vader, with the best technlogy of the empire.

"The dark side is too strong"-Vader, shortly before betraying his dark master and redeeming himself.

Seriously, the guy is no sage. I would say he must have a wisdom of 5. I wouldn't take much of anything he says.

Bah! You totally missed the point.

Anyhow the first three quotes didn't have the authority of James Earl Jones behind them. :smallbiggrin:

The last one was just dramatic stage-setting, trying to dissuade Luke from forcing him to look into his own soul.

And btw, he actually has a 14 wisdom according to Star Wars Saga ed. :smallwink:

In short, James Earl Jones > Space Marines. :smallcool:

[Duke Malagigi]

For some strange reason I just remembered Kain Darkwind's D&D stats for Darth Vader. Especialy this tidbit.



The Force (Su):

Vader can use the Force to do stuff.

She/he went into further detail, but you get Kain's sense of humor from this description.

[Destro_Yersul]

I would have the lightsabers be the same as the c'tan blade, or warscythe. Their precognitive ability combined with the nature of the blade would make an atatck that no armor could defeat, only getting outskilled (missing the roll).

But armour CAN defeat it. Specifically armour with Cortosis in it. And there's not much that precog can do about an energy shield. I'd give marine armour, which is ridiculously good, maybe a 50-50 chance of stopping it.

Unless of course you use the Movie Space Marines. Then the jedi get owned so very badly.


In game, which is to say, massively nerfed yes. In fluff, not so much...

Precisely. Terminators have survived being stepped on by Titans.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Precisely. Terminators have survived being stepped on by Titans.

Fellows, "have survived" is not "always survived." It is true that Terminators have survived being stepped on by Titans, and Grots have survived being shot by lascannons. A single instance is not proof of a generality.

Aside from concerns about Plot Armor (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlotArmor) and Cutscene Power to the Max (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CutscenePowerToTheMax), you shouldn't be so quick to dismiss the in-game mechanics of 40K. It is by far the most canonical of cannon, since it is the primary source of all 40K fluff. If the game designers decided to "balance" the armies, then it must be reflected in the fluff world - in the same way that depictions of things in Star Wars because they were "cool (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool)" are equally canonical.

I raise this issue to make two points. The first is that Terminator Armor is very strong, but it is not made of Unobtainium (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.Unobtainium). Things can and do breech it, and Terminators do die in combat. The second is that Power Weapons are special, just like Plasma and Melta weapons. They are singularly powerful enough to cut through most man-portable armor like cheese, but some things can resist it. The invulnerable save of the Terminator Armor reflects this, as well do other energy shields and other types of defenses - the invulnerable saves.

EDIT: Man, I've been getting lazy with my TV Tropes linkage. Fixed now!

[Oslecamo]

Unless of course you use the Movie Space Marines. Then the jedi get owned so very badly.


Wait, there are movie space marines?????? Where? I must have it!

[Eita]

It's an expression for fluff marines.

Really, I like to think that the people who wrote the fluff care nothing of the game mechanics and care only for fluff already written.

[Destro_Yersul]

Wait, there are movie space marines?????? Where? I must have it!

It's a special ruleset released in White Dwarf 300 and only usable with your opponents express permission. This is because if you use the Movie Marines, you will be shot if you don't win.

The Sergeant (HQ choice) Costs 200 points. He has 4 wounds, Initiative, Strength and Toughness 6, 5 attacks with a power weapon, counts as double his wounds for the purpose of being outnumbered, has both a 3+ invulnerable and a 3+ armour (rerollable if it fails), Fleet of Foot, Move through cover, infiltrate, an auspex and an assault cannon that is assault instead of heavy.

Most of this is also true for the "regular" marines. Everyone gets grenades (range 6, str8 ap3 assault 1 blast) and you can buy stunt doubles for 10pts each. Stunt doubles are basically allocatable extra wounds. The rocket launcher fires twice per turn, either str6 ap4 large blast or str10 ap1. It can move and fire. The lascannon (twin linked) hits everything in a 60" line drawn from the barrel. It inflicts instant death regardless of toughness.

I played the list against Necrons once. The Sarge spent 4 turns chewing his way through a Necron lord (warscythe included), 2 squads of warriors, a squad of flayed ones and a squad of destroyers. Yes, he killed them all. admittedly he had help for the last two turns.

[Oslecamo]

I played the list against Necrons once. The Sarge spent 4 turns chewing his way through a Necron lord (warscythe included), 2 squads of warriors, a squad of flayed ones and a squad of destroyers. Yes, he killed them all. admittedly he had help for the last two turns.

Now those are bad ass marines! If a sarge costs so much how much would it cost a comander/chaplain/librarian? Oh, well, they really are closer to the space marine fluff of 1 man counts as an army. I really don't want to think what are the stats of a fully equiped elite HQ.

Maybe you could make the battle balanced if the oposing force was able to buy troops at 1/5 of the price. This way it's indeed some men against an army.

But wait. Weren't the necrons the only thing in the universe that were actually tougher than space marines whitout being at least twice as large?

[Illiterate Scribe]

For everyone wondering about the proper stats, I again reiterate a more verisimiltudinous system, as laid down by GW. (http://specialist-games.com/inquisitor/rulebook.asp)

Space Marines just got a whole lot nastier.

[Ghast_Eyeson]

You can NEVER use game rules when having an argument involving 40K. The Space Marines are vastly underpowered to maintain game balance, a fact that the games developers themselves stress frequently.

In game, a basic imperial guard sergeant (equivilent to a reasonably athletic human male) armed with a powered sword can easily kill a terminator in close combat.

In the fluff, a terminator can be stepped on by a Warlord battle Titan and survive. Note that a warlord is at least 180 Ft tall, and covered in tank-equivelant or heavier armor and totes thousands of pounds in guns and ammunition. They can easily survive just about any small arms fire in existance (even melta weapons must fire upon one for several seconds) and commonly survive ship-based orbital fire.

Again, it has been stated by multiple games designers (notably Jervis Johnson and Andy Chambers, at different times head of GW games development) that the game in no way reflects the fluff or vice versa.

[Eita]

The Warhound is the smallest one. It actually isn't that tall.

Also, Terminators have survived being stepped on by Imperator titans, which is far more impressive.

[Oslecamo]

You can NEVER use game rules when having an argument involving 40K. The Space Marines are vastly underpowered to maintain game balance, a fact that the games developers themselves stress frequently.

In game, a basic imperial guard sergeant (equivilent to a reasonably athletic human male) armed with a powered sword can easily kill a terminator in close combat.

In the fluff, a terminator can be stepped on by a Warlord battle Titan and survive. Note that a warlord is at least 180 Ft tall, and covered in tank-equivelant or heavier armor and totes thousands of pounds in guns and ammunition. They can easily survive just about any small arms fire in existance (even melta weapons must fire upon one for several seconds) and commonly survive ship-based orbital fire.

Again, it has been stated by multiple games designers (notably Jervis Johnson and Andy Chambers, at different times head of GW games development) that the game in no way reflects the fluff or vice versa.

But just imagine how awesome it would be a WH40k game where the space marine player gets around 30 guys, and the enemy has around 300, and they still have the same average power. Hmm maybe not.

[warty goblin]

But just imagine how awesome it would be a WH40k game where the space marine player gets around 30 guys, and the enemy has around 300, and they still have the same average power. Hmm maybe not.

I'm just trying to imagine the poor guy who has to do all the painting and assembling of the 300 dudes. Nobody would play orcs/IG/Tyrranids anymore, if the SM only took 1/10 the money and effort...

[Lord Herman]

Also, Terminators have survived being stepped on by Imperator titans, which is far more impressive.

What's with the titans stepping on people, anyway? *stomp* *stomp* *stomp* *crunch* "Oops, sorry!"

[Fuzzy_Juan]

I'm just trying to imagine the poor guy who has to do all the painting and assembling of the 300 dudes. Nobody would play orcs/IG/Tyrranids anymore, if the SM only took 1/10 the money and effort...

people would...but not too many...people play all infantry guard knowing they will be using 150-200 models and do it just for the hell of it...the same point grey knight or chaos army is like 50 models...still happens.

[The_JJ]

The problem here is that Jedi's, on average, are preety much overblown international peacekeepers/diplomats. Space marines win, jedis die under hails of gunfire.

[GoC]

Does everyone at least agree that the version of Mace Windu from Clone Wars (and his far-better-than-the-movies lightsaber) would easily defeat your average Space Marine squad?
His speed and force powers are completely and stupidly ridiculuous.

I think the jedi are suffering from somethng similar to what Sauron suffered. People basing there opinions on the most well known canon where the jedi/Sauron are far weaker than is the norm. Clone Wars Mace Windu would take on every jedi, sith and storm trooper from all six movies AT THE SAME TIME!

For instance I'm pretty sure Destro_Yersul never saw Clone Wars.

[Destro_Yersul]

I saw a couple episodes and some of the trailers.

Marines are still pretty damn badass though, and will fight you as long as they maintain consciousness and control of their limbs.

[GoC]

I saw a couple episodes and some of the trailers.

Marines are still pretty damn badass though, and will fight you as long as they maintain consciousness and control of their limbs.

The problem is that it doesn't matter how badass they are, Clone War jedis are speed force users and as anyone can tell you: Wally West ALWAYS wins vs. threads.

I personaly think the power level in Clone Wars is almost as high as the EU. Sure in the latter they destroy planets but in the former you can actualy see how damn fast they're moving!

[LordVader]

Clone Wars Mace Windu makes babies cry.

I saw him take down at least 2000 Super Battle Droids...at once. With Force powers. Arrgh.

[GoC]

Clone Wars Mace Windu makes babies cry.

I saw him take down at least 2000 Super Battle Droids...at once. With Force powers. Arrgh.

And then destroy a city sized spaceship...
And PUNCHED HOLES THROUGH THE ARMORED SUPER DROIDS!:smalleek:
He was also deflecting what... 200 shots per second? At least?

Amazing how his lightsaber went through 5ft thick armor as though it was butter...

[LordVader]

They might as well have him wearing blue-and-red tights and a red cape with a big, red "S" on his chest. :smalltongue:

That being said, it was cool as hell to watch.:smallcool:

[GoC]

They might as well have him wearing blue-and-red tights and a red cape with a big, red "S" on his chest. :smalltongue:

That being said, it was cool as hell to watch.:smallcool:

Agreed.:smallcool:
To both.