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View Full Version : Ultimate power at first level?



Idea Man
2007-12-31, 10:13 PM
Let's see, the current formula for ultimate first level power is to have a high knowledge (outer planes), know of the demon lord Pazuzu, and call his name three times. He'll appear, grant you a wish (in the hopes of corrupting you), you ask for a candle of invocation, then leave. You use the gate ability to call an efreet, make it grant you a wish, and *BOOM* Pun Pun appears.

Now, I'm just nitpicking at the details here, but I'm not entirely sure this will work. For one, Pazuzu is under no compulsion to actually help you. Oh, he's a sucker for dewy eyes and a hard luck case, but you still have to convince him to fork over the wish. Wouldn't that require a bluff or diplomacy roll? You have to convince Pazuzu, and his sense motive is +37. Oh, and you can't be CE to start, or he'll just beat you up for wasting his time.

Now, let's say you've convinced him to give you a candle of invocation. Do you know how to use it? Knowledge (arcana) doesn't work as an identify spell, so you have to remember to ask Pazuzu how to use it when asking for your wish, or cast identify. The average starting cash for a wizard/sorcerer is 3d4x10gp, or about an 11% chance to get enough cash to buy a pearl. If you had to, you can get the instructions from Pazuzu when you ask for the wish. This makes it harder to hide your intentions, since he'll get a chance to cross-examine your plans for the candle.

You also need to get the right candle, after all (alignment-based), and I'll bet the immortal demon-lord has heard a lot of requests.

Basically, unless you can fool an ancient demon, I don't see him handing out any candles.

Sorry, it's been bugging me. It would be a hell of a one-shot session, though, if you pulled it off. :smallcool:

ocato
2007-12-31, 10:23 PM
Well, if you were just going Pun-Pun, a L1 wizard can sell his spellbook for some high number of gold, that I cannot recall. It's enough. Other than that, yes, I agree that the whole she-bang is subject to the DM laughing at you, and then Pazuzu eating your virgin soul.

Armads
2007-12-31, 11:00 PM
That's why Pun-Pun is just a theoretical curiosity, and requires your DM to be a rug to pull off.

tyckspoon
2007-12-31, 11:06 PM
It's also why you be a 1st level *Paladin*. Pazuzu takes special care not to screw with requests from Paladins, in order to make it more likely that they will turn to him again in the future and corrupt themselves (er.. even more than they did by calling on a demon prince once already.) Not that Pun-Pun the Paladin cares whether or not he falls; he's just gaming the system. Once he gets the necessary Wishes to ascend, he'll retrain his level to whatever he wants.

Keld Denar
2008-01-02, 02:48 PM
The problem with Pun-Pun as a paladin is that you don't have a familiar, and isn't having a tiny viper familiar one of the stepping stones for abusing the Manipulate Form Ex of the Sarruk? To the best of my knowledge, you also need CL for the Obtain Familiar feat, and a paladin has no CL until level 4.

Emperor Demonking
2008-01-02, 02:51 PM
You can use the retraining rules.

Keld Denar
2008-01-02, 03:16 PM
You can use the retraining rules.

Have you even read the retraining rules in PHBII?

a) you can only retrain when you level up...its supposed to be fully pun-punized at 1st level.

b) you can only retrain class features, not whole classes

c) you don't even qualify for Obtain Familiar regardless of what you retrain from/to.

So, the question still stands, if Pun-Pun starts as a level 1 Kobald Paladin, where does his tiny viper familiar come into play?

Emperor Demonking
2008-01-02, 03:21 PM
I remembered it wrong.

You don't have a familiar.

Arbitrarity
2008-01-02, 03:33 PM
He doesn't need one. He gets the ability from a Sarrukh, literally, and after that, you don't need a familiar. You can give a creature an ability like "enslaved" (ex), i.e. acts exactly as you will, then give it manipulate form, for example.

You have to word the stuff right, but it definately works. The only issue is Pazuzu himself, but according to his personality, it should work. Or, you can just make a normal, everyday wizard, until he hits level 17. Or a psion. Or the older build, at level 5. But the level 1 build is more efficient, and has the added bonus of being exactly in line with a monsters personality.

Douglas
2008-01-02, 03:40 PM
The familiar is only needed in the level 5 build because you need a non-Sarruhk scaled one to grant Manipulate Form to and you are a Sarruhk yourself at the time. In the level 1 build, you are Gating in a Sarruhk and can have it grant Manipulate Form directly to you. Granted, you still need a partner to do the ability score shenanigans, but gaining one is trivial once you grant yourself an unlimited use Gate spell-like ability.

Maerok
2008-01-02, 10:38 PM
DM: "Pazuzu? I thought you said Hastur three times..."
Player: "Huh? Who's that?!?!"
DM: "Hehe. It doesn't matter anymore. Start rolling."