Non-INT- or -CHA-based spellcasters

[nargbop]

What spellcaster classes are not based on INT or CHA? Any d20 books are OK. Last semester our DM sprung the BBEG's evil wife on us : a CON-based caster from the Book of Erotic Fantasy.
I was wondering if there was a more mainstream version of the same.
And, of course, a STR-based caster class' fluff would be just silly.

[Galathir]

Are you looking for arcane spellcasters? Because Druids and Clerics are two core classes that are based on wisdom.

I've never seen an arcane caster not based on either Int or Cha, but I think a Con based one would be pretty cool.

[ghost_warlock]

This may be inviting some flames, but in 3.0 the psion's "spellcasting" attribute was based off of what discipline was chosen. For instance, egoists (psychometabolism) used Str for their manifesting and I believe shapers (metacreativity) used Con and nomads (psychoportation) used Dex. :smallconfused: In 3.5 all psions now use Int. The psychic warrior (psionic gish) uses Wis, though.

Otherwise, I think most 3.5 classes use Int or Cha if arcane and Wis if divine; although there are the occasional oddity like the archivist (divine caster using Int).

[CASTLEMIKE]

The UA SRD "Spellcaster" can be Wisdom based the Ur Lord or Ur Priest PRCs are Wisdom based casters.

[Talya]

a CON-based caster from the Book of Erotic Fantasy.

I was going to mention that one--the Tantrist.

It still relies on INT though. It's a split casting stat, like the Favored Soul...Constitution for determining how many spells she can cast, but intelligence for the DC of the spells.

On the other hand, they get wizard spells, plus two domains and a domain slot per level.

Spell-recovery is a bit more complicated than merely 8 hours rest, and could be awkward to work into a campaign, like everything else in that book.

[Aquillion]

And, of course, a STR-based caster class' fluff would be just silly.Hmm...

I present for you the Student of the Atlas School, a Str-based spellcasting class!

The Students of Atlas scorn the weak ivory-tower mages who ignore their physical bodies to leech power via magical rites; they are equally contemptuous of sorcerers who rely on inheritance and personality to gain sorcerous might. To a Student of Atlas, the power of both is a sham; the only true power in this world is the power of a lean, muscular body. The Students of Atlas devote themselves to developing their beautiful muscles; they are so strong that, with a mere flex and a few boastful words, they can produce magical effects, as reality itself reshapes around their toned, muscular form. However, they are narcissistic, and must devote a certain percentage of their magic to improving their own body. Their study of bodybuilding is also focused almost entirely on the sheer, raw effect that a muscular body has, embodied in a physical presence not unlike the power a sorcerer normally gains from the strength of their personality; they do not normally study arms or physical combat, although it is not uncommon for them to branch out in that direction once they feel their studies in the Atlas school itself are complete.

A student of the atlas school is an arcane caster who casts Str-based spells. They learn and cast spells as a sorcerer, with the additional restriction that a certain percentage of their spells must be devoted to personal or touch-range buff spells (from a list.) There are some spells, such as Bull's Strength, that they are absolutely required to take; these still take up spells-known slots. Additionally, they are barred from learning or using evocation or necromancy spells (and derive no benefit from this). Finally, they refuse to cast any spell that will weaken their prestine bodies, viewing it as a bad trade in any circumstances; specifically, they will not cast any spell with an XP cost, and can learn such spells only when they have (and only for use with) a non-xp-costing option, such as Gate for travel.

Aside from these restrictions, they can fill their remaining slots with whatever they wish.

They do get some other advantages to make up for the restrictions. They have a whopping d10 for HP, and both good fort and will saves; they have a slightly expanded skill list over a sorcerer, including skills such as intimidate, climb, jump, and swim (however, they still only get 2 + int mod skill points per level, and with no real use for int, they are unlikely to be good at much.) They eventually get abilities that let them apply their Str modifier as an (additional) bonus to many charisma-based checks and bonuses, such as intimidate or diplomacy; and to substitute it for their con for the purposes of calculating their fort save. Although they are suitable to develop into a gish caster with the proper training, the class itself provides no special advantages in this direction beyond Str-based spellcasting itself.

To recover their spells, they must rest for eight hours, followed by 10-15 minutes of rigorous exercise and flexing.

[Witch]

Could you give a good world-based motivation for muscles creating magical effects? Because frankly, I don't think your write-up made the idea any less silly.

[Tempest Fennac]

There is a Shugenja variant rule which allows Con to be used as the primary spellcasting stat if they are an Earth specialist: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shugenja_%28Dungeons_%26_Dragons%29 .

[The Faceless]

Could you give a good world-based motivation for muscles creating magical effects? Because frankly, I don't think your write-up made the idea any less silly.

Why would you want it to be less silly? That's brilliant.

[Witch]

Why would you want it to be less silly? That's brilliant.
To the contrary, it degrades the ability score system, much like feats that replace ability score X by ability score Y for mechanic Z. Strength involves your muscle power and general build. It has no effect on your ability to control the powers of the arcane. Similarly, scores like Charisma play no role in affecting the damage you deal on an attack, because that does not make any sense.

[The Faceless]

To the contrary, it degrades the ability score system, much like feats that replace ability score X by ability score Y for mechanic Z. Strength involves your muscle power and general build. It has no effect on your ability to control the powers of the arcane. Similarly, scores like Charisma play no role in affecting the damage you deal on an attack, because that does not make any sense.

You're saying that a set of washboard abs won't let me bend the arcane forces of the universe to my whim? Who's to say that flexing and grunting doesn't get you magical powers in D+D land, being smarter than average or having a winning personality do the same.

[Witch]

Studying ancient books of arcane lore in order to replicate a spell? Yes. Forcing your will upon the universe? Yes. Flexing your muscles, thereby summoning a celestial badger? No.

[vegetalss4]

i agree with witch
(i was || that close to be ninjaed there)

[The Faceless]

Flexing your muscles and saying an incantation, thereby releasing the power within, as stored during your daily exercise and flexing arcane ritual, to summon a celestial badger, perhaps?

[Drascin]

...Why am I getting Fullmetal Alchemist flashbacks? :smalltongue:

More exactly, that Atlas School stuff reads like it was written by Alex Louis Armstrong himself. Which is awesome :smallamused:

And, Witch, really, it makes about as much sense that a person is able to twist the weave of magic by throwing bat poop around, and that another person is just trained to see this weave and then just grapples it and twists it himself with his powerful muscled body! to force it as he wants. Which is absolutely none, of course. But then, magic makes no sense per se, if it did it wouldn't be magic, after all - it's kind of a prerrequisite.

[Witch]

Which is absolutely none, of course. But then, magic makes no sense per se, if it did it wouldn't be magic, after all - it's kind of a prerrequisite.
Ehm, no. Magic may not be right or true, but it is supposed to make sense. That is what made people believe it in the real world. Particularly the law of sympathy was important in that (cfr. sympathetic magic).

Now, I don't know whether you see it this way, but D&D functions in a body/soul-dualism. A human's body passes away and is natural, while the soul is relatively eternal and supernatural. Mental statistics are aspects of the soul, while physical statistics are aspects of the body. Unless a creature is inherently magical, magic makes more sense deriving from the already supernatural soul, rather than from the purely natural body.

[Chronicled]

...Why am I getting Fullmetal Alchemist flashbacks? :smalltongue:

More exactly, that Atlas School stuff reads like it was written by Alex Louis Armstrong himself. Which is awesome :smallamused:

Exactly what I thought when I read it through. :smallamused:

[Captain van der Decken]

To be honest, being able to physically manipulate reality (if you know how) makes about as much sense as strange words, hand waves and bat guano managing the same thing. I.E. None.

[Ralfarius]

I say let the musclemen reap the rewards of reality manipulation! I mean, really, are you going to argue with those guns?


http://www.timboucher.com/journal/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/body-builder.jpg
GA-DOOOOOSH!

[Witch]

To be honest, being able to physically manipulate reality (if you know how) makes about as much sense as strange words, hand waves and bat guano managing the same thing. I.E. None.

Bat guano is a major component of gunpowder.
The spell that requires bat guano is fireball.
Firebal - gunpowder.

Are you really saying there's the same degree of sense between the relationships "fire - gunpowder" and "fire - muscle"?

[Captain van der Decken]

Bat guano is a major component of gunpowder.
The spell that requires bat guano is fireball.
Firebal - gunpowder.

Are you really saying there's the same degree of sense between the relationships "fire - gunpowder" and "fire - muscle"?

The magic words and gestures are as big a part of it as the bat guano. Are you suggesting that them making a huge explosion out of small amount of a component of gunpowder makes much sense?

They're an even bigger part of it, come to think of it, given how easy it is to replace the guano and how difficult it is to replace the verbal and somatic components.

[Uncle Festy]

I say let the musclemen reap the rewards of reality manipulation! I mean, really, are you going to argue with those guns?


http://www.taurai.co.zw/wwwimages/bodybuilder.jpg
GA-DOOOOOSH!

Thou hast exploded mine brain.
Congrats.

Oh, and @ everyone who's been arguing about how stupid it is to make musclecasters cast fireball,
A. They can't. Atlas casters are barred from evocation.
B. Even if they could, who says that the Atlas casters don't use bat guano? :smalltongue:

[Witch]

Thou hast exploded mine brain.
Congrats.

Oh, and @ everyone who's been arguing about how stupid it is to make musclecasters cast fireball,
A. They can't. Atlas casters are barred from evocation.
B. Even if they could, who says that the Atlas casters don't use bat guano? :smalltongue:
It's an example. Any summoning spell is equally silly. Doing cool stuff with muscles involves maneuvers, feats or raging. Not spellcasting.




The magic words and gestures are as big a part of it as the bat guano. Are you suggesting that them making a huge explosion out of small amount of a component of gunpowder makes much sense?

They're an even bigger part of it, come to think of it, given how easy it is to replace the guano and how difficult it is to replace the verbal and somatic components.
Yes, the gestures are very relevant. And if they were more thoroughly described, they might just be more thoroughbly explainable, but they're not. But what is possible is to interpret them as "Analyzing loopholes in the law of nature and exploiting them" (Intelligence) or "Instinctively exploiting loopholes in the law of nature by your very force of personality".

[The Faceless]

Bat guano is a major component of gunpowder.
The spell that requires bat guano is fireball.
Firebal - gunpowder.

Are you really saying there's the same degree of sense between the relationships "fire - gunpowder" and "fire - muscle"?
Is bat guano required? I thought that all gunpowder was was charcoal, sulfur and saltpeter.

[Witch]

Is bat guano required? I thought that all gunpowder was was charcoal, sulfur and saltpeter.
No, it's not required. But it was a major source of saltpeter.

[Irreverent Fool]

Hmm...

I present for you the Student of the Atlas School, a Str-based spellcasting class!

I can smell my hair roasting from the 'too anime' stuff already, but that reminds me of the 'Armstrong' character from 'Full Metal Alchemist'. I absolutely love it. I don't think I can work it into my current campaign... a bit too silly, but I'm definitely saving it for later!

I believe I may have come across a con-based caster in one of my third party books. Stuff's a bear to find in those though since I don't have any handy Crystal Keep indexes to use. I'll add info in an edit if I find any.

Edit: Man, I need to read the whole thread before I reply... Witch is taking this thing WAAAY too seriously. Game balance and all that. Pah!

[The Faceless]

No, it's not required. But it was a major source of saltpeter.

So, would any source of saltpeter do, or is it bat guano (a rather specific type of guano) and bat guano alone?

[Emperor Demonking]

I like the altlas school thing. Don't think it works, how does an 11 strength help you cast spells.

[Catch]

Generally, I think the reason that spellcasting--arcane or otherwise--is based otherwise useless stats is because Str, Dex and Con are already good for something else.

A Con-based caster is going to get a wealth of hit points just for investing in his primary casting ability, and a Str or Dex-based caster in going to have a significant advantage in melee or ranged combat, considering their casting stats are also combat stats. I suppose the rationale for mental stats as casting abilities, aside from the fluff, is that in order to be good at something besides magic, you have to put points into something besides your magic.

Single Ability Dependence is good sometimes, just not all the time. And casters are strong enough, I'd say. I mean, when compared to a warrior in plate who's been swinging an axe his whole life, party's spellcaster is just as strong and can cast spells, doesn't that cheapen the value of melee even more?

[Newtkeeper]

I'm not sure I can see a ST based caster, but I can sorta imagine a (partly) CON based one. He bends the forces of the universe in a very tiring manner, and needs a healthy body to withstand it. Too much power on too little strength of body, and he would die!


Wait, wait, I've got it! The STR based caster is Chuck Norris! He roundhouse kicks the laws of physics, and they sit down and shut up!

[Witch]

So, would any source of saltpeter do, or is it bat guano (a rather specific type of guano) and bat guano alone?
Personally, I'm inclined to the idea of there being several culturally different methods of casting a specific spell, having different gestures, vocal components and material components that all make some degree of sense. So, in my opinion, there may well be another source of saltpeter, another type of guano, or even something different that emulates the idea of a fireball.

[Irreverent Fool]

Generally, I think the reason that spellcasting--arcane or otherwise--is based otherwise useless stats is because Str, Dex and Con are already good for something else. A Con-based caster is going to get a wealth of hit points just for investing in his primary casting ability, and a Str or Dex-based caster in going to have a significant advantage in melee or ranged combat, considering their casting stats are also combat stats. I suppose the rationale for mental stats as casting abilities, aside from the fluff, is that in order to be good at something besides magic, you have to put points into something besides your magic.

Single Ability Dependence is good sometimes, just not all the time. And casters are strong enough, I'd say.

You're not saying that having a high charisma or intelligence is useless, are you? Because I know several diplomancers and skillmonkeys that are waiting in the trees with flamethrowers.

[Starsinger]

Bat guano is a major component of gunpowder.
The spell that requires bat guano is fireball.
Firebal - gunpowder.

Are you really saying there's the same degree of sense between the relationships "fire - gunpowder" and "fire - muscle"?

Material components are a joke. While the one for Fireball is somewhat scientifically accurate, for the Tongues spell you destroy a small Tower of Babel. Now admittedly, a Tower of Babel was used to produce the opposite effect in the Bible, but there's no actual "laws of physics" reason how that would work. Are you saying there's some degree of sense between the relationships "fire - gunpowder" and "small clay tower - omnilingual" ?

[Emperor Demonking]

Tarts to faces are funny, though. So it seems tounges is the odd one out.

[The Faceless]

Personally, I'm inclined to the idea of there being several culturally different methods of casting a specific spell, having different gestures, vocal components and material components that all make some degree of sense. So, in my opinion, there may well be another source of saltpeter, another type of guano, or even something different that emulates the idea of a fireball.
So, i could (hypothetically, in a rather silly campaign geared towards this sort of humour) pull down my trousers and start pissing great gouts of flame?

[Riffington]

Bat guano is nitrates. It is explosive, but not directly used in gunpowder.

I think that the usual sleep-based recovery system should be replaced for muscle casters, however. Instead, they must spend a full hour each day exercising, and must eat at least five meals per day. Liquid meals are available directly from the school for only 2 gp each

[Irreverent Fool]

Material components are a joke.

All the more reason to burn a feat for Eschew Materials... that is, if your DM doesn't effectively grant that to all spellcasters anyway.

[Catch]

You're not saying that having a high charisma or intelligence is useless, are you? Because I know several diplomancers and skillmonkeys that are waiting in the trees with flamethrowers.

Apparently, literalists are hiding in the trees too.

No, Int and Cha aren't useless, but they're not as all-around useful. D&D is a combat-based game, for the most part, and Int and Cha don't contribute nearly as well to combat as decent physical stats.

Besides, Diplomancers are cheesier than spellcasting and if you're using UMD to solve all your problems, you probably should have rolled up a Wizard.

[Riffington]

So, i could (hypothetically, in a rather silly campaign geared towards this sort of humour) pull down my trousers and start pissing great gouts of flame?

Yes, if you have chlamydia.

[Witch]

Material components are a joke. While the one for Fireball is somewhat scientifically accurate, for the Tongues spell you destroy a small Tower of Babel. Now admittedly, a Tower of Babel was used to produce the opposite effect in the Bible, but there's no actual "laws of physics" reason how that would work. Are you saying there's some degree of sense between the relationships "fire - gunpowder" and "small clay tower - omnilingual" ?
It's sympathetic magic. Not scientifically accurate. By doing symbolical activities, you bring forth an analogy in the world. It's basic magical thinking.



So, i could (hypothetically, in a rather silly campaign geared towards this sort of humour) pull down my trousers and start pissing great gouts of flame?

Is there any reason why urine would cause flames?

[Starsinger]

Tarts to faces are funny, though. So it seems tounges is the odd one out.

Yeah, watching someone get a tart in the face is funny. But if someone (who most likely you already view as an enemy) throws a tart in your face are you going to be laughing?

[The Faceless]

Is there any reason why urine would cause flames?
The exact same reason bat guano does. Used to be a major export of Newcastle.

[Emperor Demonking]

Yeah, watching someone get a tart in the face is funny. But if someone (who most likely you already view as an enemy) throws a tart in your face are you going to be laughing?

Well as a generally nice guy, with a brilliant sense of humour. I would.

I would also be blinded if someone threw glitter in my eyes.

[Irreverent Fool]

Apparently, literalists are hiding in the trees too.

No, Int and Cha aren't useless, but they're not as all-around useful. D&D is a combat-based game, for the most part, and Int and Cha don't contribute nearly as well to combat as decent physical stats.

Besides, Diplomancers are cheesier than spellcasting and if you're using UMD to solve all your problems, you probably should have rolled up a Wizard.

Granted, but having a strength-based spellcaster isn't going to be all that gamebreaking, is it? As long as you have full casting progression, who's going to be in physical combat?

[Starsinger]

It's sympathetic magic. Not scientifically accurate. By doing symbolical activities, you bring forth an analogy in the world. It's basic magical thinking.

Well can't that work for a strength based caster? I mean you're strong. Bears are strong. By being strong and doing symbolic activities you bring forth a bear.

[Witch]

Well can't that work for a strength based caster? I mean you're strong. Bears are strong. By being strong and doing symbolic activities you bring forth a bear.
No, no. By being strong and doing symbolic activities, you become a bear. You now have the Bear Warrior prestige class.

[The Faceless]

What about symbolically tearing a phone book in half to get the real effect of tearing a hole in reality (dimension door)?

[Catch]

Granted, but having a strength-based spellcaster isn't going to be all that gamebreaking, is it? As long as you have full casting progression, who's going to be in physical combat?

Point. But it'd make a ridiculous gish.

Anyway, my point is that if a caster has a physical stat as a casting ability, it upstages the classes that already use that ability. Sure, the barbarian isn't as useful as the Batman, but he can break down a door or lift something heavy. When the wizard can do that too, Krusk will cry himself to sleep at night.

More than normal, anyway.

[Starsinger]

No, no. By being strong and doing symbolic activities, you become a bear. You now have the Bear Warrior prestige class.

How is that different from a strength based caster casting polymorph? I personally agree that a strength based caster shouldn't be casting certain spells. Actually, a more appropriate thing to say, is that I think Psychometabolism powers are entirely appropriate for what I think a strength based caster should do. But I don't particularly see a problem with casting off a stat other than the mental stats.

[Emperor Demonking]

Out of level 0 spells, where can you do your strength symbolic activities.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

If it hasn't been mentioned, the Incarnate, Soulborn and Totemist from Magic of Incarnum are Constitution based. Well, actually yhe Incarnate is both Wisdom and Con based, but it still fits the poster's criteria.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Spell-recovery is a bit more complicated than merely 8 hours rest, and could be awkward to work into a campaign, like everything else in that book.

Like size penalties for elves?


So, i could (hypothetically, in a rather silly campaign geared towards this sort of humour) pull down my trousers and start pissing great gouts of flame?

They wouldn't be so great if you were an elf, if you know what I'm sayin'.

[The Faceless]

They wouldn't be so great if you were an elf, if you know what I'm sayin'.

This is why i play Gnomes.

[Valairn]

No, no. By being strong and doing symbolic activities, you become a bear. You now have the Bear Warrior prestige class.

You may think you have a strong argument, but really, what you are saying is, you have a vision of how magic works, and you think it should apply to everyone. While its nice that you long for verisimilitude, you have to realize that when it comes to verisimilitude, magic breaks every rule. Maybe in your campaign setting magic can't be bent by physical strength, thats fine, its your campaign setting, but as for the rest of us, we are in fact free to choose whatever way we feel like.

[Chronicled]

You may think you have a strong argument, but really, what you are saying is, you have a vision of how magic works, and you think it should apply to everyone. While its nice that you long for verisimilitude, you have to realize that when it comes to verisimilitude, magic breaks every rule. Maybe in your campaign setting magic can't be bent by physical strength, thats fine, its your campaign setting, but as for the rest of us, we are in fact free to choose whatever way we feel like.

Quoted for Truth.

[SofS]

The Atlas Caster clearly replaces all normal material components and foci with round dumbbells that have their weights clearly printed on the side. I'll bet they make great magical belts, too.

[The Faceless]

Are they required to dress in leapordskin leotards and grow luxuriant handlebar mustaches as well?

[BRC]

Are they required to dress in leapordskin leotards and grow luxuriant handlebar mustaches as well?
Of course, the mustache has it's own stats on the character sheet, and in many cases is more powerful than the Atlas Caster themselves.

[The Faceless]

Of course, the mustache has it's own stats on the character sheet, and in many cases is more powerful than the Atlas Caster themselves.
My mustache is epic level!

[BRC]

My mustache is epic level!
That may be so, but YOU just got beat up by a pair of gnolls.

[The Faceless]

That may be so, but YOU just got beat up by a pair of gnolls.

Reminds me of the paladin spell silverbeard. you grow a beard so epic it grants +2 armor class.

[bbugg]

I love the Atlas caster and see no problem with it at all.

Of course, they'd get very limited weapons, and I'd add that they'd lose their spellcasting ability if wearing any armour of any kind. If you can't properly flex, how can you cast?? I might even go so far as to say they can't wear clothes more concealing than modesty dictates.

And there's certainly no such thing as still spell.

I love it. I'm going to run it by my DM...