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Thanatos 51-50
2008-01-01, 08:57 AM
It seems that upon this board, the Mystic Theruge gets alot of hate. When I'm looking at the class, I fail to see any major problems, but that could be because I'm not big on optimizing, but I fail to see the problem.

IIRC (I don't have the book sitting next to me), all of the MT's class features every level are "+1 to existing Arcane Spellcaster Class/+1 to existing Divine Spellcaster Class". And here is where my question comes into play.

The quickest entry into MT is Wiz3/Clr3, correct? Assuming quickest entry, then Wiz3/Clr3/MT2 would allow you to cast third-level spells, right? It doesn't seem like - from this interpretation - you loose the ability to cast 9th-level spells at all.

So whats with the hate? Am I reading the rules wrong?


--- All of the sudden, the above post seems very fractured and not clear to me, and I wrote it. I'll try to clarify if anyone has questions.

Emperor Demonking
2008-01-01, 09:00 AM
You need to commit the greatest sin of all to get it. You loose spell caster levels.

Fenix_of_Doom
2008-01-01, 09:07 AM
MT has a number of problems:
1) it's a though road getting there, assuming you first got 3 cleric levels and then 3 wizard levels, this means that your character is lagging behind for 3 whole levels. In game, that can be very long time.

2) assuming you end up as a cleric3/wizard7/MT10, you'll have lvl 13 cleric spell casting and level 17 wizard spell casting, which gives you one whole level 9 spell, a level 20 wizard get 4, without taking bonus spells into account.

3) it gives you MAD, you now need both wisdom and intelligence for your spell casting, which means both sides will likely be sub-optimal.

4) you don't gain most of your clericzillaness because of the inability to wear armour etc.

It is definitely playable at higher levels, just sub-optimal, I guess it can be very good if your DM enjoys throwing lots of encounters per day at you.

Edit: and yes a cl3/wiz3/MT2 can cast 3rd level spells, the problem is that all the other full-casters could already do that 3 levels ago.

Emperor Demonking
2008-01-01, 09:09 AM
Er, you can go sorcerer/favored soul or wizard/archivist. No I'm not pretending a wrote it right before.

Fenix_of_Doom
2008-01-01, 09:15 AM
Er, you can go sorcerer/favored soul or wizard/arcanist.

sorcerer/favored soul, yes let's take two inferior classes(compared to wiz/cl) and combine them!
BTW, this still has MAD because favoured soul has MAD build in.

wizard/arcanist, if you meant wizard/archivist then it actually works in regard with MAD, the rest still stands though.

Edit: to clarify, MAD=multiple ability dependencie.

Thanatos 51-50
2008-01-01, 09:26 AM
I'm aware of what MAD is. Still, two abilities isn't really too MAD, is it? Look at the MAD, MAD, monk.

I've always personally preferred the Sorceror over the Wizard (Spontaneous casting FTW!).

Loosing caster levels isn't a big sin in my book - but then again, I'm not heavy into optimizing.

Starsinger
2008-01-01, 09:30 AM
but then again, I'm not heavy into optimizing.

Unfortunately, the majority of posts on this forum are all about optimizing. If it were a busier time of day, this post would already have someone telling you that MT sucks because it's a wizard, but it's not Batman, and therefor you're wasting your time. :smallsigh:

Now personally, I don't see a problem for MT if they know what they're getting in to. If they're happy being a Redmage, and they know that that's what they're doing, then it's cool. Especially if there's a primary arcane/divine caster in the party.

Fenix_of_Doom
2008-01-01, 12:31 PM
I'm aware of what MAD is. Still, two abilities isn't really too MAD, is it? Look at the MAD, MAD, monk.

I've always personally preferred the Sorceror over the Wizard (Spontaneous casting FTW!).

Loosing caster levels isn't a big sin in my book - but then again, I'm not heavy into optimizing.

Two abilities isn't too MAD, but you also need a decent CON end DEX always helps for initiative and AC, it's not fatal on it's own, it's just one of the things that make a MT suboptimal.

Sorcerer is inferior because of it's slower spell progression, lessened versatility and loss of efficient metamagic. It's still good, just not as good as the wizard.

Devils_Advocate
2008-01-01, 10:52 PM
So whats with the hate?
Basically, because building a Mystic Theurge is actively nerfing your character. Replacing a spellcaster with two spellcasters three levels lower just isn't a good move, and a MT isn't even as good as an actual pair of a cleric and a wizard each of whom is three levels behind the party. Yet building a MT is more complicated than building a single-class wizard or a single-class cleric. A barbarian may not be as powerful as a spellcater, but at least he isn't a spellcaster you went out of your way to depower.

That said, spellcasters could actually do with some active nerfing, and there's no real reason that that should have to come from the DM and not the player. A Wiz 3/Clr 3/MT 10 could easily fit in fine with a group of ECL 16 non-casters, so if you're playing a game at around that level, feel free to go ahead and trade away raw power for versatality if you think it makes a more interesting character. The thing is just that trading away raw power makes a character, well, less powerful (duh), so players who want powerful characters are gonna dislike that.

I think that another reason the Mystic Theurge PrC is disliked is that it just doesn't do anything special. It lets you play a multiclassed arcane caster/divine caster without utterly sucking, and that's it. Many other PrCs grant shiny special abilities that you can't otherwise get, but MT just lets you not even fill in for two characters three levels behind you (because an actual wizard & cleric duo would get a total of twice as many actions per round as you).

One comparison often given when dicussing MTs is to the Leadership feat. It can give you an actual additional caster who can be just two levels behind you at the cost of, well... a feat. Granted, Leadership is overpowered, to the point where they basically acknowledge that it should require special DM permission. But still...

TheOOB
2008-01-01, 11:10 PM
Starting at level 3, and continuing until level 20(which is the vast majority of your career as an adventurer), a MT is at least one(oftentimes two) spell levels below their single class casting companions. Sure you have more spells, but your allies spells are way better then yours, especially since having more spells doesn't really help you, you can still only cast one spell a round, which means you can't be a wizard and a cleric at the same time, and you will never run out of spells before your party needs to rest.

Solo
2008-01-01, 11:22 PM
I'm aware of what MAD is. Still, two abilities isn't really too MAD, is it? Look at the MAD, MAD, monk.



Hahahaha.....

Crow
2008-01-02, 01:03 AM
The MT ends up lacking if you play to level 20 and stop, but it can be an excellent part of an epic build.

Valiena
2008-01-02, 01:23 AM
Essentially, having alot of less powerful spells are not helpful. You can only do so much each round, and you want to burst in it. Most DnD combat at higher levels is only a few rounds long. If you need lower level spells you get scrolls or wands.

Talic
2008-01-02, 01:24 AM
If you're a necromancer, you can also finish off with True Necromancer to get 9th level spells in both areas by level 20.

MT is suboptimal, though, in that whenever you're casting 3rd level spells, they're casting 4th. You have a limited number of spells per combat, so without rods of quicken, it's hard to keep up with just having 2 dedicated casters.

What MT DOES allow for, though, is a lot of utility, out-of-battle spells. Since you'll likely be casting no more battle spells than the wizard or the cleric in any one fight, you can afford to branch spells that do other useful things.

MT is at its best when... the party is caster light, or otherwise well-rounded and just needs a Booster. In the capacity of buffing and boosting, MT can be quite effective. Just not as uber as a single class caster.

Archivist/Wizard offers the fastest entry, I believe, especially with the Illumian Race, with Improved Sigil: Krau. That can get in at Wiz 1/Archivist 3. Practiced spellcaster once for wizard, and you're in business. You're 1 spell level behind for divine spells, and 3 for arcane. You're 1 caster level behind in divine spells, and 0 for arcane. Finish off with True Necromancer, and you can have a level 20 slinging 9th level on both sides of the fence.

Aquillion
2008-01-02, 01:37 AM
The MT ends up lacking if you play to level 20 and stop, but it can be an excellent part of an epic build.MT is actually extremely powerful a few levels post-epic (considerably moreso than most other casters), since they can get triple the number of epic-magic uses other classes do as long as they manage to max the necessary skills (which will require some tricks).

But, really, who worries about balance at epic levels?

To get back to non-epic MT, though, one major problem with the class -- which a few people have touched on, but I didn't notice anyone saying explictly -- is that, as with all PRCs, you can only take 10 levels of it max pre-epic. Without wrangling in entrance to another double-progression class, this leaves a MT sort of screwed over at level 16, and it's just bad design at fault (Why did they let MT end at that point? It certainly isn't overpowered, and there's no background reason why it would.)

Of course, that's pretty easily houseruled away, but it's still bad design. If a PRC is going to become the entire point of your character after you get in, and it does something that (when it was printed, at least) can't be continued anywhere else, of course you should be able to take it for the rest of your progression.

Talic
2008-01-02, 02:16 AM
MT is actually extremely powerful a few levels post-epic (considerably moreso than most other casters), since they can get triple the number of epic-magic uses other classes do as long as they manage to max the necessary skills (which will require some tricks).

But, really, who worries about balance at epic levels?

To get back to non-epic MT, though, one major problem with the class -- which a few people have touched on, but I didn't notice anyone saying explictly -- is that, as with all PRCs, you can only take 10 levels of it max pre-epic. Without wrangling in entrance to another double-progression class, this leaves a MT sort of screwed over at level 16, and it's just bad design at fault (Why did they let MT end at that point? It certainly isn't overpowered, and there's no background reason why it would.)

Of course, that's pretty easily houseruled away, but it's still bad design. If a PRC is going to become the entire point of your character after you get in, and it does something that (when it was printed, at least) can't be continued anywhere else, of course you should be able to take it for the rest of your progression.

Because after that, you dip into another dual progression class... They're out there.

marjan
2008-01-02, 02:23 AM
Because after that, you dip into another dual progression class... They're out there.

Not in the core. Even with splatbooks you only have two: Arcane Hierophant and True Necromancer. And both of those require something more specific than MT. AH - elf druid arcane caster (no clerics), TN - not sure but if I remember some crapy domains or something like that and on top of that PrC sucks.

horseboy
2008-01-02, 02:32 AM
A buddy of mine had one of these in LG. Think it was Wiz 3/We Jus Cleric 4/ MT 3. He had enough gear that he still turned at 9thish level. There wasn't much in the game he couldn't make. Also, since he was a squirrelly SOB, was one of the characters he used to routinely break the game.

tyckspoon
2008-01-02, 02:38 AM
Not in the core. Even with splatbooks you only have two: Arcane Hierophant and True Necromancer. And both of those require something more specific than MT. AH - elf druid arcane caster (no clerics), TN - not sure but if I remember some crapy domains or something like that and on top of that PrC sucks.

If you're looking for Mystic Theurge cheese, you want a prestige class that gives rapid spellcasting advancement first. Ur-Priest is the standard, with full 9 levels of Divine spells crammed into a 10-level class. Wiz X/Ur-Priest 1/MT 10/Wiz X reaches full divine and arcane casting easily.. there's a lot of Ur-priest cheese.

marjan
2008-01-02, 02:48 AM
If you're looking for Mystic Theurge cheese, you want a prestige class that gives rapid spellcasting advancement first. Ur-Priest is the standard, with full 9 levels of Divine spells crammed into a 10-level class. Wiz X/Ur-Priest 1/MT 10/Wiz X reaches full divine and arcane casting easily.. there's a lot of Ur-priest cheese.

One exactly - Arcane Caster/Ur-Priest. And that doesn't mean that MT is good it just means that Ur-Priest (aside from being stupid class as far as fluf goes) is very cheesy.

TheOOB
2008-01-02, 03:15 AM
One exactly - Arcane Caster/Ur-Priest. And that doesn't mean that MT is good it just means that Ur-Priest (aside from being stupid class as far as fluf goes) is very cheesy.

Thats about right. MT the way it was intended(using two base classes, most likely wizard and cleric) is fairly weak. You don't need MT to make Ur priest overpowered. Heck, you can make a sublime cord/ur priest build and get massive spell progression with MT, the fact that such a horrible class can also be used to make broken things more broken is just another nail in the horrible design coffin.

Cuddly
2008-01-02, 03:30 AM
Isn't Epic MT really, really bad, or am I missing something?

tyckspoon
2008-01-02, 03:43 AM
Isn't Epic MT really, really bad, or am I missing something?

*looks it up* Oh, gods, yeah. The spellcasting progression drops to half (it alternates arcane and divine advancement instead of both every level), it only gets a bonus feat every 6 levels, and the hit die and skill points *still* suck. You'd probably be better off taking True Necromancer to round out your levels if you really want to keep the dual-progression thing, and True Necromancer ain't good to start with..

Cuddly
2008-01-02, 03:49 AM
Or just taking 3 levels wizard/3 levels cleric. You get the same thing, but with bonus feats twice as fast and the cleric's bigger HD and turning.

Talic
2008-01-02, 05:36 AM
Or just taking 3 levels wizard/3 levels cleric. You get the same thing, but with bonus feats twice as fast and the cleric's bigger HD and turning.

You only get bonus feats for Wizard level 21+ and cleric level 21+. A Wiz3/Drd3/MT10/ArcHeir4 that gains 3 levels of wiz and 3 levels of Druid doesn't get a single bonus epic feat, as he is only a Wiz 6 and a Druid 6. What he will get is Wildshaping and a bonus metamagic/Item creation feat (for level 5 in both classes).

Witch
2008-01-02, 05:57 AM
Isn't Epic MT really, really bad, or am I missing something?
Yes. It's commonly houseruled, at epic, given the stupidity of the epic progression. The method of houseruling, on the other hand, varies. Some people change it to full. Personally, I take the existing version and add "+1 to spellcaster level of choice" every two levels.

Aquillion
2008-01-02, 07:33 AM
Isn't Epic MT really, really bad, or am I missing something?Not the point. The purpose of going MT in a build aiming for epic isn't to take Epic MT levels, but to take advantage of this:


Epic Spellcasting [Epic]
Prerequisite
Spellcraft 24 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 24 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level arcane spells. OR Spellcraft 24 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 24 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level divine spells. OR Spellcraft 24 ranks, Knowledge (nature) 24 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level divine spells.

Benefit
You may develop and cast epic spells. If you are an arcane spellcaster, you may cast a number of epic spells per day equal to your ranks in Knowledge (arcana) divided by 10. If you are a divine spellcaster, you may cast a number of epic spells per day equal to your ranks in Knowledge (religion) or Knowledge (nature) divided by 10.

Special
If you meet more than one set of prerequisites, the limit on the number of spells you may cast per day is cumulative.
It can be a bit tricky to max all those skills (you'll probably need to use a human cleric with the animal or plant domains to get knowledge (nature), and take able learner), but if you do, you get three times the epic spellcasting after you hit epic levels. It doesn't really matter whether or not you're advancing your traditional spellcasting in both your classes anymore, when you're essentially advancing your epic casting as if you had three classes. You just have to bring one to 9th level casting beforehand, and at least finish the other shortly after going epic... that's no problem even without an early-entry trick.

Another fun thing is that Cleric 20 with the plant or animal domain can do this trick to get double epic spellcasting without... doing anything else. They just have to max both knowledge (nature) and knowledge (religion) along with spellcraft, and at epic levels they get twice the epic spellcasting.

I don't think they ever seriously tried to balance the epic levels. If you're going epic, it's not like you really care about balance anymore anyway...

Witch
2008-01-02, 07:37 AM
I don't think they ever seriously tried to balance the epic levels. If you're going epic, it's not like you really care about balance anymore anyway...
Nonsense. People that go epic do care about balance. And one of those little balances that people that play epic add is that you have to take Epic Spellcasting once for every set of epic spells you want. So no free stuff for the Mystic Theurge.

Aquillion
2008-01-02, 07:50 AM
Nonsense. People that go epic do care about balance. And one of those little balances that people that play epic add is that you have to take Epic Spellcasting once for every set of epic spells you want. So no free stuff for the Mystic Theurge.That... doesn't really balance it. At all. Even with that houserule, the benefit gained from taking Epic Spellcasting multiple times in that fashion is still so far beyond anything that any other epic feat could offer that it simply isn't funny. You slow them down a bit as they set it up, but that's all.

Witch
2008-01-02, 07:55 AM
That... doesn't really balance it. At all. The benefit gained from taking Epic Spellcasting multiple times in that fashion is still so far beyond anything that any other epic feat could offer that it simply isn't funny. You slow them down a bit as they set it up, but that's all.
Describe the benefit. Try and base it on the epic spells in the ELH, given that all developed spells need DM approval, and need to be in line with the already described spells. To be honest, feats like Improved Metamagic and Improved Spell Capacity are far better. So's Multispell, but that one is overly broken.

Keld Denar
2008-01-02, 10:36 AM
One of the biggest problems with MT is that spell power increases expotentially as levels increase. Also, the range at which each level of spells is most effective tends to correlate to when a wizard aquires them. Therefore, when you get those spells 3 levels later, they are already on their way out the door as far as power level is concerned. You are always playing catchup, but never able to get caught up. You will always be overshadowed by a single class caster, not to mention one with a bunch of other nifty prclasses such as archmage, loremaster, or radiant servant. MT is also cursed by blandness, since your only defining class ability is spell casting, which is already behind par.