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UserClone
2008-01-01, 10:10 AM
Where would I find those "Lesser Aasimar/Tiefling" races I read so much about?

Illiterate Scribe
2008-01-01, 10:26 AM
Players guide to Faerun, I believe. They're utterly unbalanced.

Soepvork
2008-01-01, 10:28 AM
Player's Guide to Faerun.

Basically, they are the same as the "standard" aasimar and tiefling, except their type is changed from Outsider (Native) to Humanoid (Planetouched)

Tengu
2008-01-01, 10:46 AM
Basically, they are the same as the "standard" aasimar and tiefling, except their type is changed from Outsider (Native) to Humanoid (Planetouched)

And they lose their LA. Which makes them stupidly imbalanced.

Talya
2008-01-01, 10:48 AM
Sean K. Reynolds Savage Progressions has a better way of taking the level adjustment out of Aasimar.

Witch
2008-01-01, 11:13 AM
And they lose their LA. Which makes them stupidly imbalanced.
I'd like some proof for that claim.

Newtkeeper
2008-01-01, 11:23 AM
I'd like some proof for that claim.

Well, same abilities as a race with LA, but no LA themselves.

That would suggest to me that either the original has an LA to high, or the lite-version has an LA to low.

Tengu
2008-01-01, 11:29 AM
I'd like some proof for that claim.

Minor bonuses aside, do you really think that +2 to wisdom and charisma, or +2 to dexterity and intelligence and -2 to charisma are balanced ability bonuses for a 0 LA race?

Witch
2008-01-01, 11:38 AM
Well, same abilities as a race with LA, but no LA themselves.

That would suggest to me that either the original has an LA to high, or the lite-version has an LA to low.
The original has an LA too high, yes.


Minor bonuses aside, do you really think that +2 to wisdom and charisma, or +2 to dexterity and intelligence and -2 to charisma are balanced ability bonuses for a 0 LA race?
Yes, I do think that those are balanced ability score bonuses, given the absolutely crappy other abilities Aasimar get.

Let's compare a bit.



# +2 Wisdom, +2 Charisma.
# An aasimar’s base land speed is 30 feet.
# Darkvision: Aasimars can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
# Racial Skills: Aasimars have a +2 racial bonus on Spot and Listen checks.
# Special Attacks (see above): Daylight.
# Special Qualities (see above): Resistance to acid 5, cold 5, and electricity 5.



# +2 Constitution, -2 Charisma.
# Dwarf base land speed is 20 feet. However, dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load (unlike other creatures, whose speed is reduced in such situations).
# Darkvision: Dwarves can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and dwarves can function just fine with no light at all.
# Stonecunning: This ability grants a dwarf a +2 racial bonus on Search checks to notice unusual stonework, such as sliding walls, stonework traps, new construction (even when built to match the old), unsafe stone surfaces, shaky stone ceilings, and the like. Something that isn’t stone but that is disguised as stone also counts as unusual stonework. A dwarf who merely comes within 10 feet of unusual stonework can make a Search check as if he were actively searching, and a dwarf can use the Search skill to find stonework traps as a rogue can. A dwarf can also intuit depth, sensing his approximate depth underground as naturally as a human can sense which way is up.
# Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves may treat dwarven waraxes and dwarven urgroshes as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons.
# Stability: A dwarf gains a +4 bonus on ability checks made to resist being bull rushed or tripped when standing on the ground (but not when climbing, flying, riding, or otherwise not standing firmly on the ground).
# +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison.
# +2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects.
# +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against orcs and goblinoids.
# +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type. Any time a creature loses its Dexterity bonus (if any) to Armor Class, such as when it’s caught flat-footed, it loses its dodge bonus, too.
# +2 racial bonus on Appraise checks that are related to stone or metal items.
# +2 racial bonus on Craft checks that are related to stone or metal.

I don't see that big a difference.

Newtkeeper
2008-01-01, 11:47 AM
I don't see that big a difference.


Hmmm. The dwarf gets a +2 to CON (and -2 to CHA, but that doesn't hurt him much, except by keeping him from sorcery) , a bunch of situationally useful abilities, and +2 on saves against spells.

The Aasmir gets +2 to WIS, and +2 to CHA, and a few minor abilities. Really, for +0 LA, why *wouldn't* a cleric be an aasmir? And let's face it, LA should be based on the *best* classes for the race, not the worst.

Admittedly, unless he's a cleric, the aasmir doesn't come out *too* far ahead. But isn't a dwarf also a fairly (I do not, however, say overly), strong LA+0? At the other extreme, compare him to the .5Orc! Even compared to the fairly average gnome, the aasmir, I think, comes out way ahead.

In general, bonuses to spellcasting stats are very valuable. The aasmir gets two!

Witch
2008-01-01, 11:57 AM
Hmmm. The dwarf gets a +2 to CON (and -2 to CHA, but that doesn't hurt him much, except by keeping him from sorcery) , a bunch of situationally useful abilities, and +2 on saves against spells.
Situationally very useful abilities, yes. Good saves against spells as well.


The Aasmir gets +2 to WIS, and +2 to CHA, and a few minor abilities. Really, for +0 LA, why *wouldn't* a cleric be an aasmir? And let's face it, LA should be based on the *best* classes for the race, not the worst.
1) Level Adjustment is an out-of-game balancing mechanism. This is important to remember. In the game world, Aasimar level just as quickly as anyone else. If seen like this, there is no reason why the cleric aasimar needs the same level adjustment as the fighter aasimar.
2) A cleric may want better protections versus spells. He may want a better Constitution score. He may want to have access to a number of weapons without an exotic weapon proficiency feat. He may want a bonus feat. He may want immunity to sleep effects. He may want to be Small, and get all the bonuses from that. He may want more strength.


Admittedly, unless he's a cleric, the aasmir doesn't come out *too* far ahead. But isn't a dwarf also a fairly (I do not, however, say overly), strong LA+0? At the other extreme, compare him to the .5Orc! Even compared to the fairly average gnome, the aasmir, I think, comes out way ahead.

In general, bonuses to spellcasting stats are very valuable. The aasmir gets two!
Spellcasting stat boosts are overrated. They're good, yes. But let's see what a 1st level caster gets from an increase in Wisdom. First, a +1 to save DCs, but the cleric is likely focusing more on buffing than on that, so this won't matter much. Then, bonus spells. At 1st level, we could say he went from 16 to 18. This makes no difference at all. Let's go with 10th level, and assume the change is from a 24 to a 26. The only difference is a single 4th level spell. Once again, I'm not impressed.


All in all, an Aasimar cleric is not a lot more powerful than a human cleric, and certainly not particularly more powerful than, say, a Half-Orc barbarian (other than by the abusability of the cleric class at higher levels - race will have nothing to do with this.)

Tengu
2008-01-01, 12:07 PM
Remember that stat bonuses will let you improve other stats much more in point buy - an aasimar cleric with 18 wisdom and 16 charisma has other stats much higher overall than a human cleric with 18 wisdom and 16 charisma. That's worth much more than a bonus feat.

Tieflings have a net stat bonus of +2 instead of +4, but that doesn't mean they are less overpowered for 0 LA - since the classes they are best suited for have little use for charisma anyway.

A race really has to have severe weaknesses to have a net total stat bonus more than 0 and have 0 LA. Neither lesser aasimar nor lesser tiefling has them.

Starsinger
2008-01-01, 12:09 PM
All in all, an Aasimar cleric is not a lot more powerful than a human cleric, and certainly not particularly more powerful than, say, a Half-Orc barbarian (other than by the abusability of the cleric class at higher levels - race will have nothing to do with this.)

And then at higher levels, a standard Aasimar cleric is worse than a LA 0 race cleric. Especially when the LA 0 Cleric is level 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17. Doubly so for an Aasimar sorcerer (only then it's even levels). Being a spell level behind isn't fun.

Witch
2008-01-01, 12:09 PM
Remember that stat bonuses will let you improve other stats much more in point buy - an aasimar cleric with 18 wisdom and 16 charisma has other stats much higher overall than a human cleric with 18 wisdom and 16 charisma. That's worth much more than a bonus feat.

Tieflings have a net stat bonus of +2 instead of +4, but that doesn't mean they are less overpowered for 0 LA - since the classes they are best suited for have little use for charisma anyway.

A race really has to have severe weaknesses to have a net total stat bonus more than 0 and have 0 LA. Neither lesser aasimar nor lesser tiefling has them.
Once again, I think you people are assessing stat boosts as too important, while, when compared to other abilities, they aren't all that special.

Lady Tialait
2008-01-01, 12:15 PM
Dwarves i personally think should have been LA 1, as such in game they are. They are VERY powerful for a non-LA race.

Compare Aasimar to the Elf, shall we?

Tengu
2008-01-01, 12:19 PM
Once again, I think you people are assessing stat boosts as too important, while, when compared to other abilities, they aren't all that special.

What's so strong about (for example) dwarves then, if stats aren't so special? Stonecunning? +2 to saves versus poison? Stats ARE important, and there are very few races that have racial abilities that are more important than stats - from core ones, the only ones are human (bonus feat) and small races.


And then at higher levels, a standard Aasimar cleric is worse than a LA 0 race cleric. Especially when the LA 0 Cleric is level 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17. Doubly so for an Aasimar sorcerer (only then it's even levels). Being a spell level behind isn't fun.

We're talking about the lesser, 0 LA aasimar here. Normal aasimar and tiefling are rather weak for LA +1 races.

lord_khaine
2008-01-01, 12:20 PM
i do think they are a lot closer to a LA of 0 than to 1.
think of it the other way, who would give up a level of cleric for +2 wis and
+2 char?

Newtkeeper
2008-01-01, 12:22 PM
i do think they are a lot closer to a LA of 0 than to 1.
think of it the other way, who would give up a level of cleric for +2 wis and
+2 char?

Very few.

However, as I said, who wouldn't give up, say, an Elf's bonus, for +2 WIS/+2 CHA.

Better underpowered than overpowered, I think.

Starsinger
2008-01-01, 12:26 PM
We're talking about the lesser, 0 LA aasimar here. Normal aasimar and tiefling are rather weak for LA +1 races.

I know. Someone mentioned that Aasimars get caster stat boosts, which are "extremely powerful." So I countered with an example of how it hurts a regular aasimar, trying to show that they're better off as strong LA 0s than Weak LA 1s.

Tengu
2008-01-01, 12:37 PM
Normal aasimar and tiefling belong to the same category as whisper gnome (except that they are on the other side of the fence) - too weak for LA +1, too strong for LA 0. I agree with Talya that Savage Species handle them the best way.

Chronicled
2008-01-01, 02:47 PM
If you really think that they're overpowered, drop the Daylight special attack and energy resistances. Then they're easily within the middle range of LA+0.

The only classes that can make use of both their ability bonuses anyways are a paladin (which need all the help they can get) or a turn-undead abusing cleric (which is a problem regardless).

Witch
2008-01-01, 02:53 PM
Very few.

However, as I said, who wouldn't give up, say, an Elf's bonus, for +2 WIS/+2 CHA.

Better underpowered than overpowered, I think.
Rogues?

It's like asking "Who wouldn't give up, say, a Half-Orc's bonuses for a +2 Con?" Casters. Or "Who wouldn't give up, say, an elf's bonuses for a +2 Str?" Barbarians.

Different races are suited to different classes more. Lesser Aasimar happen to be good clerics.

Tengu
2008-01-01, 04:37 PM
If you really think that they're overpowered, drop the Daylight special attack and energy resistances. Then they're easily within the middle range of LA+0.

The only classes that can make use of both their ability bonuses anyways are a paladin (which need all the help they can get) or a turn-undead abusing cleric (which is a problem regardless).

Actually, if I were to balance the lesser variants, I'd drop aasimar's wisdom bonus and tiefling's intelligence or dexterity bonus.

Talya
2008-01-01, 05:02 PM
Normal aasimar and tiefling belong to the same category as whisper gnome (except that they are on the other side of the fence) - too weak for LA +1, too strong for LA 0. I agree with Talya that Savage Species handle them the best way.



Sorry, I'm unfamiliar with Savage Species. It may also have a good way of dealing with them.

I'm referring to Sean K. Reynolds' Savage Progressions collumn on the WotC website. In particular, he did one section on level adjusted races. It can be found here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a)

Note that while these rules are "official," in the same sense as Unearthed Arcana alternate rules are official WotC published ideas, (/barbosa on) they are more like "guidelines" than actual rules.(/barbosa off). He doesn't show every possible level adjusted race or template, nor are the examples he gives ironclad and unalterable (for instance, you could swap the aasimar's wisdom or charisma bonus at level 0 depending on your character concept.) They just provide an example for how to divide up a level adjustment over time.

Tengu
2008-01-01, 07:32 PM
These are what I meant - I thought they are from Savage Species. Guess I was mistaken.

LibraryOgre
2008-01-06, 04:07 AM
I'll point out one of the primary advantages of being an outsider: immunity to the wide range of lower-level spells that are designed to affect humanoids. Sure, a dwarf or elf gets a +2 to save against that Charm Person spell, but an Aasimar is immune, because it's not technically a person.

Gorbash
2008-01-06, 09:24 AM
Umm, where exactly in Player's Guide to Faerun are those Lesser Aasimar/Tieflings? I can't seem to find them...

Illiterate Scribe
2008-01-06, 09:32 AM
I'll point out one of the primary advantages of being an outsider: immunity to the wide range of lower-level spells that are designed to affect humanoids. Sure, a dwarf or elf gets a +2 to save against that Charm Person spell, but an Aasimar is immune, because it's not technically a person.

Lesser Aasimar are humanoid (planetouched), rather than outsider.

Also, we are underestimating the utility of the energy resistance, especially at low levels. The tiefling's fire resist, in particular.

Curmudgeon
2008-01-06, 10:06 AM
At LA +1, Aasimar is a good race choice for a Bard, Cleric, Sorcerer, or Favored Soul (which relies on both WIS and CHA). With LA buyoff this ends up being only 3,000 XP behind LA +0 races -- meaning at higher levels, the Aasimar character is mostly at the same class level as other party members.

Given that the LA +1 choice is a fine option, the LA +0 version does seem excessively good.

Witch
2008-01-06, 10:20 AM
At LA +1, Aasimar is a good race choice for a Bard, Cleric, Sorcerer, or Favored Soul (which relies on both WIS and CHA). With LA buyoff this ends up being only 3,000 XP behind LA +0 races -- meaning at higher levels, the Aasimar character is mostly at the same class level as other party members.

Given that the LA +1 choice is a fine option, the LA +0 version does seem excessively good.
The usefulness of LA you propagate is contingent on accepting LA buyoff, which is an optional rule as well. A sorcerer with level adjustment gets 2nd level spells at ECL 5. At that ECL, the wizard has access to 3rd level spells. I don't consider that very good.

Talya
2008-01-06, 10:26 AM
The value of +2 to an ability score will also vary relative to your point buy or amount rolled.

If your total ability score bonuses are +5 (elite array), the Aasimar's +2 represents a 40% increase in ability score bonuses. However, if your total ability score bonuses are, say, +12 (36 point buy gets you 14 to all scores), the aasimar is only giving you a 17% boost. The higher your ability scores start, the less of a relative difference ability modifiers make.


Now that's assuming both charisma and wisdom are useful to your build. Obviously it will vary with class. Paladins and clerics see the most benefit. Some gestalt combos may really make good use of it as well.

Ne0
2008-01-06, 11:22 AM
The value of +2 to an ability score will also vary relative to your point buy or amount rolled.

If your total ability score bonuses are +5 (elite array), the Aasimar's +2 represents a 40% increase in ability score bonuses. However, if your total ability score bonuses are, say, +12 (36 point buy gets you 14 to all scores), the aasimar is only giving you a 17% boost. The higher your ability scores start, the less of a relative difference ability modifiers make.

That's a bit of an awkward statement. I don't really know what's wrong with it, but it's moot somewhere.

Talya
2008-01-06, 12:01 PM
That's a bit of an awkward statement. I don't really know what's wrong with it, but it's moot somewhere.

Let me simplify it for you. We'll use one ability score as a time, and we'll use physical ones since mental ones are a bit more abstract and harder to value.

Who benefits more from a +2 bonus to strength? The human fighter with 16 strength, or the storm giant fighter with 39 strength? What is the bigger proportional boost to attack and damage: from +3 to +4? or from +14 to +15?

Who benefits more from a +2 bonus to Constitution, a level 20 wizard with 80 hit points? Or a 20HD young adult gold dragon with 230 hit points?

See my point? Proportionally, the more you have, the less adding a fixed amount benefits you.

LibraryOgre
2008-01-06, 04:41 PM
Lesser Aasimar are humanoid (planetouched), rather than outsider.

Yes, and being switched from outsider to humanoid makes them vulnerable to person-oriented spells (and still vulnerable to plane-oriented spells). It specifically mentions that on page 192 of PGtF, where Lesser Planetouched are found. Prior to that, you couldn't Charm Person them... your tiefling wasn't a "person".

LibraryOgre
2008-01-06, 04:44 PM
See my point? Proportionally, the more you have, the less adding a fixed amount benefits you.

Very good point.

RukiTanuki
2008-01-07, 04:24 PM
To me, one of the greatest Planetouched strengths wasn't the imbalanced ability scores; it was their outsider status (and, as others have mentioned, the immunity to many common spells that it brings). Lesser Planetouched turn that strength into a weakness: they're not only vulnerable to those spells now, they're still vulnerable to spells that target outsiders (for example, banishment).

I don't mind lesser planetouched in my campaign. There's far more potential for imbalance elsewhere. :)

The_Snark
2008-01-08, 02:16 AM
Actually, planetouched are no more vulnerable to banishment than other characters. They're native outsiders, which means they can only be banished if they're travelling on other planes... which is exactly like everyone else. No special vulnerability at all. They're vulnerable to outsider-bane weapons, I suppose... except that all outsider-bane weapons are keyed to subtype, and they don't have any alignment subtypes... so really, outsider vulnerabilities means almost nothing.

I should point out that dwarves are considered one of the stronger player races. And keep in mind that while +2 to a casting stat doesn't matter so much at 1st level, it does matter at, say, 15th. The difference between a 22 and a 24 is a 3rd-level spell and a 7th-level spell, plus an increase to all their save DCs—fairly significant.

I've always felt that planetouched are underpowered as LA +1, but as written are a bit more powerful than player races are intended to be. The aasimar has no actual drawbacks. The tiefling does, but only in Charisma, which has almost no mechanical effect unless you play a class that relies on it. Energy resistance is quite a valuable situational resistance, easily equalling the dwarf's bonus on saves against spells.

They're not incredibly overpowered by any means, but they're a little stronger than normal. I imagine I'd allow them, because I don't want to punish a player for playing one, but I'd take away a few of their abilities (one of the stat modifiers, or possibly the energy resistances).

Nebo_
2008-01-08, 02:29 AM
The whole point of lesser planetouched was to make Genasi stop sucking so hard. I don't think the person that came up with the idea actually considered Teiflings and Aasimar.

Roog
2008-01-08, 02:47 AM
That's a bit of an awkward statement. I don't really know what's wrong with it, but it's moot somewhere.


Let me simplify it for you. We'll use one ability score as a time, and we'll use physical ones since mental ones are a bit more abstract and harder to value.

Who benefits more from a +2 bonus to strength? The human fighter with 16 strength, or the storm giant fighter with 39 strength? What is the bigger proportional boost to attack and damage: from +3 to +4? or from +14 to +15?

Who benefits more from a +2 bonus to Constitution, a level 20 wizard with 80 hit points? Or a 20HD young adult gold dragon with 230 hit points?

And that is where it becomes moot (to a degree).

You should not be comparing the size of bonuses to to each other, you should be comparing the final effect with the two bonuses. In most cases simply comparing the proportional increase of the bonus with and without the additional racial bonus, overestimates the rate in drop off of relative effect.
In some cases (for example with contested checks) the effect of changing the bonus is largest when check is evenly matched, and if the point of a roll is to avoid failure (rather than to achieve success, eg with saves or die effects) the value of a bonus increases as the modified total approaches 100%.

LibraryOgre
2008-01-08, 10:45 PM
Actually, planetouched are no more vulnerable to banishment than other characters. They're native outsiders, which means they can only be banished if they're travelling on other planes... which is exactly like everyone else.

No.

They cannot be dismissed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dismissal.htm), because that sends them back to their home plane, which is the Prime Material. They can be Banished (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/banishment.htm), which just sends them away from yours.