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View Full Version : How Powerful Are HD, BAB, Armor, Saves, and Skill Points?



Goober4473
2008-01-01, 03:58 PM
The name pretty much says it. How much more powerful should the special abilities of a class with low BAB, no or light armor, one good save, and 2 + Int skill points be compared to various other combinations?

My current math (or, more accurately, numbers I made up to look smart) goes something like this (full/medium/low armor in ths case does not necessarily mean heavy/medium/light):

d10, full BAB, full armor, one good save, low skills: 1
d8, medium BAB, medium armor, all good saves, low skills: 2
d6, medium BAB, low armor, one good save, high skills: 2
d8, medium BAB, low armor, one good save, medium skills: 2
d8, medium BAB, full armor, two good saves, low skills: 2
d6, Low BAB, low armor, one good save, medium skills: 3
d6, Low BAB, medium armor, one good save, low skills: 3

The number represents the power of the class's special abilities, in relation to feats. Classes get 10 special abilities, plus 10 bonus feats. So a 1 ends up with 20 feats worth of power, a 2 ends up with 30, and a 3 ends up with 40.

Does this make any sense?

Gardakan
2008-01-01, 04:00 PM
Yes it's make sense... the special abilities goes with the entire class...

Reinboom
2008-01-01, 04:11 PM
Things to note:
Different saves are not worth the same. A good will save I would put above a good reflex save.
Increase of hit die is relative to what you are increasing from. Upgrading a character from d4 to d6 is significant. Upgrading a character from d10 to d12.. not so much.

How much something is worth is dependent on a level to level basis.
For both medium, and low BAB, that first level is always 0. Multiclassing emphasizes this - since - you get even less than "low" BAB in many cases.
The same applies to good saves, but in reverse.
Example: Druid 1/Wizard 1 = +2 Fort, +4 Will, +0 Reflex, +0 BAB

The same applies to armor, as well, unless class features are also restricted to them. Since, just taking a class means you always have that armor proficiency now. This applies to weaponry too.


With those aside, may I request why you are trying to map these out?

ZeroNumerous
2008-01-01, 04:14 PM
Lets not forgot d4 HD, 2+INT skills, 1 good save, and low BAB makes the most powerful class in the game.

Goober4473
2008-01-01, 04:17 PM
I'm making entirely new classes, and I want to have a baseline for balancing special abilities. I don't want to end up with Wizards that are gods and fighter that suck, but I don't want to screw characters with low base stats by not giving them good enough special abilities.

Also, I use fractional BAB/saves, so a Wizard 1/Druid 1 would be: Fortitude +2 (+2 1/2 from Druid, +1/3 from Wizard), Reflex +0 (+1/3 from Druid, +1/3 from Wizard), Will +3 (+2 1/2 from Druid, +1/2 from Wizard [the +2 applies only once, no matter how many classes you have with a good save]), and +1 BAB (+3/4 from Druid, +1/2 from Wizard).


Lets not forgot d4 HD, 2+INT skills, 1 good save, and low BAB makes the most powerful class in the game.
I'm not using any classes save Commoner with a d4 hit die, as of right now.

Level20Commoner
2008-01-02, 06:07 AM
I'm making entirely new classes, and I want to have a baseline for balancing special abilities. I don't want to end up with Wizards that are gods and fighter that suck, but I don't want to screw characters with low base stats by not giving them good enough special abilities.

Also, I use fractional BAB/saves, so a Wizard 1/Druid 1 would be: Fortitude +2 (+2 1/2 from Druid, +1/3 from Wizard), Reflex +0 (+1/3 from Druid, +1/3 from Wizard), Will +3 (+2 1/2 from Druid, +1/2 from Wizard [the +2 applies only once, no matter how many classes you have with a good save]), and +1 BAB (+3/4 from Druid, +1/2 from Wizard).


I'm not using any classes save Commoner with a d4 hit die, as of right now.

I have a pdf on this subject if you're interested. The author goes into great detail about the value of everything from saves and hp to class features.

Talic
2008-01-02, 06:50 AM
For Saves:
Fort > Will > Reflex

Reasoning: Fort includes most Save or Die Effects, as well as several save or suck effects (strong toxins, etc). Will includes the remaining Save or Die effects, and most Save or Lose Effects. Also in here is a lot of Save or Suck. Reflex is almost all Save or damage, which is by far the least important.

Attack: BAB > AC

Reasoning: On a 1 for 1 basis, AC is less important, even though both skew the same odds the same amount. BAB can be spent, as is, to gain several things, including AC, Damage, and the like. AC requires specialized abilities to spend on anything, and is more of a defense than anything else.

AC: Touch > Flat-Footed.

Reasoning: Things that boost your Touch AC (Dex, Deflection, etc) are more universally applied than things which boost Flat footed AC only (Nat armor, Armor). Further, a higher ratio of debilitating effects occur from touch attacks.

Other Special abilities vary.

Kioran
2008-01-02, 07:04 AM
Generally speaking, I rate the qualities of HD (Every aspect of the lvl apart from the class Features) in descending order:

- BAB
- Saves (in order of importance: Will, Fort, Ref - but all saves are useful and needed)
- Skill ranks/lvl (but consider the difference in power in the class skill lists - they are important as well)
- HD-size

Generally speaking, class Features outwiegh all of these - see Core-PC classes by HD (excerpts):

- Ranger (Full BAB, two good Saves, 6 Skill ranks, d8 - everything´s decent or excellent)
- Monk (Yes, the master of suck - but he has decent skill points, BAB and all good saves)

If I were to rate the HD-Features on a point scale, I´d assign the following values:

BAB: 1 (7 points) 0.75 (3 points) 0.5 (0 points)
Saves: Any good save 3 points
Skill ranks: 1 points per rank above 2
HD: 1.5 points per size increase.

That would put the Rogue at (3 + 3 + 6 + 1.5 = 13.5 Points), Monk at ( 3 + 9 + 2 + 3 = 17 points), Fighters at (7 + 3 + 0 + 4.5 = 14.5 points).

Generally speaking, I´d place classes with poor class features (Monks, Fighters and other primary Fighting classes) at about 20, Skilled classes with a few tricks(Bards, Rogues and somesuch) at 15, , Divine Caster at 10, and Arcane casters at 5 (nerf divine Casters if you use Splatbooks by the metric ton).
Casters do not utterly suck, but should have bad HD, skillful characters have some power besides their HD and should be squishy, Fighters need any help they can get, so they get good HD.

Incidentally, I houserules the Fighter into a Good will save and two additional skill ranks - making him worth 19.5, Ranger is already worth exactly 20, Barb is worth 18, and monks are worth 17 (to little - I gave them two additional skill points).
Bards are worth 14.5, and thus a little better than rogues, HD-wise - but within reason.
And so on.
NPC - classes (except for adept and commoner) are all worth in the range of 11-13 points - also fair, I think.

Anyway, this is just a quick and dirty method, but hey - maybe you like it.

Talic
2008-01-02, 07:09 AM
Will > Fort?

Hrm, I was always of the mindset that Flesh to Stone and Disintegrate were nastier to a PC than Dominate Monster and the like.

Granted, from a party standpoint, the Dominate is certainly the worse immediate threat.

Cuddly
2008-01-02, 07:14 AM
Buffing fort tends to be a byproduct of a high constitution.

Kioran
2008-01-02, 07:21 AM
Will > Fort?

Hrm, I was always of the mindset that Flesh to Stone and Disintegrate were nastier to a PC than Dominate Monster and the like.

Granted, from a party standpoint, the Dominate is certainly the worse immediate threat.

That one´s close - but I as a player would rather be killed outright than Tasha´d, so maybe it´s a matter of taste. Anyway, I wouldn´t say any of these two is massively more important than the other.

Goober4473
2008-01-02, 09:16 PM
I have a pdf on this subject if you're interested. The author goes into great detail about the value of everything from saves and hp to class features.

That would be really useful. Can you send it over PM or email?

Aquillion
2008-01-03, 01:23 AM
I'm making entirely new classes, and I want to have a baseline for balancing special abilities. I don't want to end up with Wizards that are gods and fighter that suck, but I don't want to screw characters with low base stats by not giving them good enough special abilities.Remember that, to be useful, a classes' BAB, HD, etc have to support their role. A wizard's low combat stats don't matter so much (and it usually isn't worth giving up even a single caster level to increase them dramatically) because their abilities are generally designed to be used from safely out of melee anyway, when most of those stats don't come into play.

Conversely, a monk's 3/4ths BAB is crippling because it's a class built for melee play, but lacking one of the key statistics needed to support that.