PDA

View Full Version : Warblade Build - please critique.



Saph
2008-01-01, 05:49 PM
So our long-running high-level game has finally ended, and our group is starting off a new campaign at low levels. The plan is that we'll keep running this game into the New Year until 4th Edition comes out. Everyone's had a week or two to think about their new characters, and is quite keen on getting to start afresh and plan some games where one combat round doesn't last 25 minutes anymore.

Then we got the character creation guidelines yesterday. We're starting at level one, despite several requests to make it at least level 2-3 or so.

Meh.

Annoyed but undaunted, I'm setting out to make a character who's got enough flexibility and options to be interesting, despite being only first-level. The DM is notoriously lethal (you can check out the link in my sig for the diary in our last campaign, if you like reading PC death stories), so I'm trying to make him as tough as possible to up my survival chances.

At the moment the rest of the party consists of a rogue-type, an arcane caster, and a cleric. I've been playing a spellcaster for ages, so I'd like a change, and the one bit of good news in the character creation guidelines is that we're allowed ToB. So I'm going for a warblade. Here's what I've got at the moment. Any suggestions appreciated.

Creation Guidelines

Books Available: Core, EPH, ToB
Stats: Point buy 28
Skills/Feats/Equipment: Standard
Other books available by request, ie maybe. The DM seems dubious about the EPH stuff, but not the ToB, at least not yet.

Current Character

Race: Wood Elf
Stats (after adjust): Str 17 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 8
Level build: Warblade 1 / Fighter 2 / Warblade 3+
Feats:

1st: Martial Study (Crusader's Strike)
2nd: Combat Reflexes (Fighter bonus feat)
3rd: Power Attack (Fighter bonus feat), Hold the Line
4th:
5th:
6th: Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades)

Maneuvers/Stances:

1st: Steel Wind, Moment of Perfect Mind, Wolf Fang Strike, Hunter's Stance
2nd:
3rd:
4th: Emerald Razor
5th: (2nd level maneuver?)
6th: Absolute Steel, (3rd-level maneuver?)

Skills: Jump, Concentration, Tumble, Listen (cc), Spot (cc)

Notes

- Wolf Fang Strike is in there to qualify for Hunter's Sense. I'll never use the maneuver, but I can only ready three anyway.
- I'm thinking of using a sword and shield at level 1, switching to a glaive once I get Combat Reflexes at level 2.
- The main focus is on AoO's/lockdown, which I'll be able to do at full power once I get Thicket of Blades at level 6, but I can also do a fair bit of damage with Emerald Razor. I can't think of any really good maneuvers for levels 5 and 6, so suggestions appreciated.

Requests

Mostly I'm looking for build suggestions and ideas. Remember that the campaign's starting at level one, so the character has to be fully effective right out of the gate.

I'd like to play a warblade - I know Crusaders are strong, but their recovery mechanic bugs the hell out of me and I don't feel like playing a devoted religious type. Beyond that, any suggestions/alternatives appreciated, as long as they're effective and fun to play. Build ideas up to about level 6-10 would be good, but anything beyond that is unnecessary (actually, anything beyond level 6 is probably unnecessary).

That's all I can think of right now. Thoughts?

- Saph

Chronicled
2008-01-01, 06:34 PM
Since EPH is allowed, finding a way to get a psionic focus will prove to be extremely effective in conjunction with Diamond Mind maneuvers, allowing you to "Take 15" on a Concentration check. Swapping a level of Fighter for a level of Psychic Warrior is one possibility.

Also, you can get Combat Reflexes as a Warblade bonus feat at your fifth Warblade level.

Edit: Also, swap out Wolf Fang Strike for Sudden Leap if you really want Hunter's Sense. The extra mobility can prove very handy.

NEO|Phyte
2008-01-01, 06:37 PM
Since EPH is allowed, finding a way to get a psionic focus will prove to be extremely effective in conjunction with Diamond Mind maneuvers, allowing you to "Take 15" on a Concentration check. Swapping a level of Fighter for a level of Psychic Warrior is one possibility.

It's not a possibility in this case, you need a PP reserve of at least 1 to be able to gain Psionic Focus, and a Wis 10 Psychic Warrior 1 has 0 power points. A two-level dip would work, although you wouldn't be able to use your two powers without a Wis of at least 11.

As for your edit, Sudden Leap ALSO requires another maneuver known to take it.

Chronicled
2008-01-01, 06:41 PM
It's not a possibility in this case, you need a PP reserve of at least 1 to be able to gain Psionic Focus, and a Wis 10 Psychic Warrior 1 has 0 power points.

Dang, you're right. Well, there's other ways to get that focus.

A level of Psion would net you a bonus psionic feat, the power point reserve needed for the focus, and 3 first level powers. With good power selection, this could be a fair choice.


As for your edit, Sudden Leap ALSO requires another maneuver known to take it.

:smalleek: That ought to teach me to check the books before I start spouting suggestions.

Saph
2008-01-01, 06:45 PM
Also, you can get Combat Reflexes as a Warblade bonus feat at your fifth Warblade level.

I've been thinking about this too, but the problem is that first to fifth level is a long way. I'd effectively be playing without the feat for most of the character's likely career.

- Saph

CASTLEMIKE
2008-01-01, 06:48 PM
Consider taking the Hidden Talent feat from EPH page 67 which is nice with the Flaws variant for a Warblade since it will give your PC a 2PP reserve and a power (Lots of useful powers like Astral Construct, Mind Thrust, Shield or Vigor).

Core usually includes the SRD so taking a Bloodline with the various benefits and how easy they are to pay down compared to standard LA buydown can be nice. Various Giant Blood lines have Power Attack at level 2 and a +1 St at level 3.

Edit: I'd consider delaying a Warblade level just to pick up a level of Swordsage to fulfill meeting some of the Diamond Mind, Stone Dragon and Tigerclaw base prerequisite manuevers (Things like Wolf Fang Strike) if not PRCing in the future (or for any future PRC disciplines).

Probably not going to be hitting upper levels so multiclassing could be interesting going Warblade -1, Barbarian -1, F- 2, Swordsage -1 (For future high level manuever base foundation (Before or after F-2)), Warblade+ or Barbarian -1, Swordsage -1, F-2, Warblade+

Chronicled
2008-01-01, 06:51 PM
I've found that Sapphire Nightmare Blade and Emerald Razor make a nice combo, as it lets you adjust for either a high armor or high dex opponent. Punishing Stance is quite useful at lower levels, especially with a reach weapon; I'd argue that it's better than Hunter's Sense early on.

Wall of Blades is quite nice for a 2nd level maneuver.


Consider taking the Hidden Talent feat from EPH page 67 which is nice with the Flaws variant for a Warblade since it will give your PC a 2PP reserve and a power (Lots of useful powers like Astral Construct, Mind Thrust, Shield or Vigor).

I think that more utilitarian powers would be better options, such as Burst, Create Sound, Detect Psionics, Far Hand, Precognition, Psionic Grease, Matter Agitation, or Missive.

Cuddly
2008-01-01, 06:53 PM
I'd feel naked with such low constitution.

Brawls
2008-01-01, 07:20 PM
I'd feel naked with such low constitution.

Also, several of the future warblade abilities add Int modifiers to crit confirmation, attack rolls & damage rolls. You might want to bump your Int up a bit if you want to take advantage of them down the line. Also, your Concentration skill is based on Con. and many of the Diamond Mind abilities require a Conc. check.

Brawls

Saph
2008-01-01, 07:28 PM
If you can think of a way to have a really high Str, Dex, Con, and Int all at the same time with a 28 point buy, please tell me. :P I'm already starting with 14 in Con and Int (before racial mods).

- Saph

CASTLEMIKE
2008-01-01, 07:34 PM
+0 Planetouched Tiefling but it's another source book PGtF.

Cheesy 4 source books: +0 LA Mage Bred, +0LA Planetouched, Hengeyokai (ECS and PGtF for the templates, Oriental Adventures for the shape changing animal and Dragon magazine which made the Hengeyokai a +0 LA shapechanger instead of +1LA)) 28 point buy would give you base scores of 15, 14, 14, 14,10 and 8 or 14, 14, 14, 14, 12 and 8 before magebred adds +4, +2, +2 to physical attributes along with +2 to Intelligence and +2 to Dexterity for the planetouched Tiefling along with a -2 to charisma with no wisdom modifier to the hengeyokai due to the Dragon magazine.

Cuddly
2008-01-01, 07:40 PM
Don't play an elf? Wear heavier armor?

Mage bred is for animals, not humanoids, so I see no real way to get that to work. It's also Eberron, which is not a source she listed.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-01-01, 07:43 PM
I posted it was cheesy and took a lot of source books: FRCS, ECS and OE along with a Dragon magazine article.

Saph
2008-01-01, 07:45 PM
Remember that we're starting at level 1.

I'll have 13 HP. A Con of 14 would mean my HP was 14, instead. I'm not sure one or two HP will make that much difference.

As for the templates . . . sorry, and I do appreciate the effort, but I'm not even going to ask. I already know what the answer would be. Besides, I want to be a character, not some sort of genetic experiment. :P

- Saph

CASTLEMIKE
2008-01-01, 07:50 PM
Sorry I couldn't resist I like to think something like that is what Mordain the Fleshweaver could be cooking up in one of his experiments in his ECS, Droaam stronghold.

Barbarian -1, Warbalde -1, F- 2 (F-1, Cruasder or SS -1), WB+ would be pretty tough, move fast +10 mv, plus Rage 1/Day is really nice at lower levels bumping up strength and constitution at WB-2 the PC would learn a new 2nd level manuever plus could swap out a known 1st level WM manuever for a second level WB maneuver which is a good reason to take that single level dip in Crusader or Swordsage for a maneuver foundation.

Hidden Talent Vigor would give the PC +5 Hit Points in 2 encounters or +10 in a single tough encounter.

Cuddly
2008-01-01, 08:04 PM
Exp penalties would be a bitch, though.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-01-01, 08:07 PM
True but no experience penalties if the PC starts PRCing only if the PC stays in the Warblade class and that rule is enforced in their game and it could be delayed quite a few levels in a leveling up game starting at first level which doesn't seem to apply based on her first post example using a multiclassing build with fighter levels.

Hunter Noventa
2008-01-01, 08:24 PM
For a second I thoguht the title said Warmage build. I'll move along now.

Hecore
2008-01-01, 08:44 PM
I'd either consider dropping Hold the Line or choosing Human - if you do, pick up Wild Talent with your freed up/extra feat. It'll let you focus psionically without having to take a psionic class.

Lemur
2008-01-01, 09:36 PM
I'll second Wall of Blades as your maneuver, especially if you're interested in boosting your survivability. Nothing like a chance at saying "noyadin't" to some ogre, or mage, or ogre mage's attack. Similarly Iron Heart Surge is a good 3rd level maneuver at level 6.

Alternatively, you could pick up a White Raven maneuver at level 5 in order to get White Raven Tactics at level 6, which can help your party out significantly.

One thought would be to take one level of barbarian instead of fighter in order to qualify for Tiger Blooded, which has some synergy with Thicket of Blades. However, that loses you a feat, and it doesn't become viable until level 7, which sounds too far off for your consideration. One level of barbarian does net you a fair amount of good abilities on its own, so it might be tossup between rage and power attack. Edit: this could also be done without the barbarian level by taking shifter as a race, but that seems contingent on DM permission.

Xyk
2008-01-01, 10:48 PM
wow. I just built myself a level 1 wood elf warblade before i looked at this. Alot of the same stuff. I went with punishing stance, a shield and a bastard sword though, for a different flavor. No help here, sorry!

Saph
2008-01-02, 06:47 AM
Hmm. All right, what if I drop Hold the Line and just stick to Warblade? That'd give:

1: Martial Study - Crusader's Strike
2:
3: Power Attack/Adaptive Style (can't decide which)
4:
5: Combat Reflexes
6: Martial Stance - Thicket of Blades

Maneuvers:

1: Steel Wind, Moment of Perfect Mind, Wolf Fang Strike, Hunter's Sense
2: Steely Strike
3: Emerald Razor
4: Wall of Blades (replace Steely Strike), Stance of Clarity
5: Iron Heart Surge
6: Thicket of Blades and replace WFS with some Tiger Claw maneuver.


A lot of people seem to be recommending the psionic option. What's the draw? I know it synergises with Concentration checks, but I won't really have anything to use it with to start off except Moment of Perfect Mind. I suppose I could go human and dip a couple of levels into Psionic Warrior, but then I'd need to boost Wisdom as well.

- Saph

Talic
2008-01-02, 06:53 AM
It's not a possibility in this case, you need a PP reserve of at least 1 to be able to gain Psionic Focus, and a Wis 10 Psychic Warrior 1 has 0 power points. A two-level dip would work, although you wouldn't be able to use your two powers without a Wis of at least 11.


Doesn't the Wild Talent Feat give you a PP reserve of 1?

Rachel Lorelei
2008-01-02, 06:59 AM
Using Psychic Warrior 2 instead of Warblade 2 is a great idea. You can pick up an extra feat and Psionic Meditation, and expend your psionic focus to "take 15" on Diamond Mind concentration checks--when you pick up Insightful Strike, say, that'll be useful, and it really helps with Moment of Perfect Mind. On top of that, you'll be able to use dorjes of Force Screen.

You can't actually take Martial Study(Crusader's Strike) at 1 and Martial Stance(Thicket of Blades) at 6--you need *crusader* ILs of 1 and 5 for them, which means you need to be non-Crusader 2 to get Crusader's Strike and non-Crusader 10 to get Thicket of Blades. If you want AoOs, I really suggest a Crusader.

Don't forget White Raven Tactics--you should be picking IHS and WRT up at levels 5 and 6, in whichever order. Protip: snag Moment of Perfect Mind, too, with a Ring of the Diamond Mind.

I'd forget Hunter's Sense; pick up Punishing Stance--at low levels, it helps you offensively, i.e. 5d6+6 with a greatsword, Punishing Stance, and Mountain Hammer at level 3.

Wall of Blades is a good defensive maneuver; use it against touch attacks.

I'd pick up Extra Readied Maneuver; it's just that good for a Warblade. I'd even take it over Adaptive Style.

If you pick up Combat Reflexes, snag Stand Still too.

Saph
2008-01-02, 07:16 AM
You can't actually take Martial Study(Crusader's Strike) at 1 and Martial Stance(Thicket of Blades) at 6--you need *crusader* ILs of 1 and 5 for them, which means you need to be non-Crusader 2 to get Crusader's Strike and non-Crusader 10 to get Thicket of Blades.

Are you sure about this? I can't find anything in the Martial Study text of my copy of ToB about needing Crusader ILs.


I'd pick up Extra Readied Maneuver; it's just that good for a Warblade. I'd even take it over Adaptive Style.

Extra Readied Maneuver has a prerequisite of Swordsage level 1+, unfortunately.

Would like White Raven Tactics, but not sure I have the space.

- Saph

Ikkitosen
2008-01-02, 08:02 AM
I think you can take Crusader's Strike at 1st, I just wouldn't bother.

Human:

Str 15 (+1 at 4th)
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 14
Wis 10
Cha 10

Level1: WB1: Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise

Level2: WB2:

Level3: WB3: Improved Trip

Level4: WB4:

Level5: Crusader1: Some maneuvers you don't care about + Thicket of Blades (since stances aren't selected by the stupid random selection thing)

Level6: WB5: Warblade bonus feat, Stand Still (for stopping big things)

Does this work? I think so, unless there's some reason you have to take L1 maneuvers for your L1 crusader abilities..?

Saph
2008-01-02, 08:14 AM
I thought about that as well, but I think my initiator level wouldn't be high enough - for my crusader maneuvers, it'd only be crusader level + 1/2 warblade level.

Getting Thicket of Blades is real difficult. It almost makes me want to give up on it, but it's such a cool ability that it's worth the effort.

- Saph

Ikkitosen
2008-01-02, 08:25 AM
In that case (and you are correct about the Initiator Level problem) could you not take a Crusader level at some point and then take Martial Stance for Thicket at 6th? In this case it seems to me that a level of Crusader rather than Warblade is a less onerous requirement than one of your feats.

Saph
2008-01-02, 08:32 AM
In that case (and you are correct about the Initiator Level problem) could you not take a Crusader level at some point and then take Martial Stance for Thicket at 6th? In this case it seems to me that a level of Crusader rather than Warblade is a less onerous requirement than one of your feats.

But Warblades can't take Devoted Spirit maneuvers, so I wouldn't be able to pick that stance. A Crusader level would let me skip Martial Study and go straight to Martial Stance, though.

- Saph

Ikkitosen
2008-01-02, 08:37 AM
...A Crusader level would let me skip Martial Study and go straight to Martial Stance, though.

Yeah, this is what I meant. Battlefield control builds tend to be rather feat-intensive, so strangely taking a different full-BAB class is less of a bind than using up a feat. Plus you get +1 to hit and damage in any round after one in which you've been injured, which is better than a poke in the eye.

I'm actually not a big fan of dipping in real games, but then having read your last character's diary I reckon it's allowed with that DM :smallamused:

Lycar
2008-01-02, 08:39 AM
Well Saph, from my own experience i can say that on the lower levels, every HP counts. That does not mean that you should put any attribute score higher then 14 though, but i did the following:

I took human as race and spent both feats on Martial Stance and Martial Training. For my Warblade i took Crusader Strike and Martial Stance.

Martial Stance means you heal yourself or a nearby ally for 2 points each time you hit an opponent. It is not much and if you live to see higher levels, it is a stance you will probably never use again. Also a strike manouver that you cannot exchange and that will outlive it's usefullnes eventually.

But in our campaign, those 2 points and the occasional 1d6+1 or 2 or 3 made us live through fights we otherwise wouldn't have survived.

Remember that a Warblade does NOT need a great stregth or dexterity to be effective. Sure, some abilities have save DCs that depend on your Str and Str helps hitting stuff but ultimatly, your manouvers define your potency.

On other hands, if you really only get one feat, Crusader Strike should suffice.

With higher levels, you could later add the higher versions to your list of available manouvers. Yes it costs a feat but unless healing is no issue for your party, it may well be worth it.

Then again, Adaptive Style is nice to have too and it's first level or never, sadly.....

Lycar

Saph
2008-01-02, 08:49 AM
Hmm. All right, so it's a choice between taking a couple of levels of Psionic Warrior or doing something complicated with Crusader. Either way I'm going to have to go with human, for the feat.

Psionic Warrior would give me force screen and a couple of feats, but I'd lose a BAB and have horrible MAD. Crusader could work, but the RP aspect doesn't grab me.

What was that feat from the XPH, Hidden Talent? That might work.

- Saph

Keld Denar
2008-01-02, 10:03 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I read in ToB, IL is IL, regardless of what class advances it. Can anyone cite a source proving otherwise?

If not, grab that crusader level at 5. Crusader 1 requires that the stance you take is a 1st level one, so you can't go grabbing a 3rd level stance until you pick up another stance known. Then you only need to take Martial Stance to get thicket, or grab a couple more levels of crusader until you get your 2nd stance. Taking it at 5 will net you WRT along with some other nifty manuvers.

I highly recommend Adaptive Style. Playing a warblade without it now feels neutered.

Good luck and have fun Saph!

Ikkitosen
2008-01-02, 10:09 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I read in ToB, IL is IL, regardless of what class advances it. Can anyone cite a source proving otherwise?

ToB P39 under multiclass characters.

Lemur
2008-01-02, 11:50 AM
Maneuvers don't work like feats in the sense that you stop being able to use them if you lose the prerequisites, at least as far as I can tell. You only need the prerequisite to learn the maneuver in the first place, not retain use of it. That might help with swapping things out.

For example, instead of picking up Steely Strike, you could take Douse the Flames or Leading the Attack. At fourth level, you can swap out Wolf Fang Strike. At fifth level you could then take White Raven Tactics. Then at sixth level you can swap out the level one White Raven maneuver for Iron Heart Surge.

Jacob Orlove
2008-01-02, 12:03 PM
As long as you'll be taking Crusader or Psychic Warrior levels fairly soon, going with Human is fine. If you'll be taking a lot of Warblade levels first, though, you should really consider staying with Elf, because Warblades don't get proficiency with the Longbow.

Having a good ranged attack is really useful, especially at low levels. There are a lot of monsters (giant scorpions, for example) where you'd rather shoot it full of arrows from the safety of up in a tree or on horseback, because trying to melee it will get you killed.

Arbitrarity
2008-01-02, 12:03 PM
You're OK with Martial Stance. Martial Study says the manuver can be taken if you meet the prerequisite, and the intention seems to be adding a manuver from another discipline. Martial Stance, however, is clear. The IL for Martial Stance is "equal to your level in martial adept classes (if any) + 1/2 your levels in other classes"

Telok
2008-01-02, 12:19 PM
People are suggesting the feat Wild Talent (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#wildTalent) to gain access to the psionic aspects of the Concentration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/skills/concentration.htm) skill. Notably the psionic focus and the ability to expend that focus to take 15 on a Concentration check.

The option of taking a level or two of Psychic Warrior (instead of Fighter) would replace the feat with the PsyWar power points at the cost of one point of BAB and d8 hit die. The problem with taking only one level of PsyWar is that they don't get any power points from the first level unless you have a Wisdom bonus of +2 or better.

Another option could be to change your race to one of the psychic races (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm). Which would get you power points at the expense of being a wood elf. I must admit here to a strong preference for Xeph.

If you don't mind the "You're doing what?!?!" factor then taking one level of Fighter and one level of Soulknife could work. You would lose one BAB but gain +2 Reflex and Will, always have a magic short sword, and get Wild Talent as a bonus feat. Plus it has the d10 hit die.

What you may find to be an important help is the skill Autohypnosis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/skills/autohypnosis.htm). It has synergy with Concentration so you only need three or four points in it to... Resist Dying!

Good luck!

cupkeyk
2008-01-02, 12:46 PM
Why not just take a psionic race to getthe pp for that psionic focus without multiclassing, kalashtar?

CASTLEMIKE
2008-01-02, 12:54 PM
What was that feat from the XPH, Hidden Talent? That might work.

- Saph

Hidden Talent (General feat) page 67 EPH must be taken at first level the other drawback is you need a Charisma of 11 or better but as other posters have stated with a Warblade you don't need a maxed out strength.

Saph
2008-01-02, 12:56 PM
Alright, I'm probably going to go with human after all. At the moment the choice is between Warblade 1 / Fighter 2 / Warblade 3+, and just a straight-classed Warblade. The fighter variant gets Combat Reflexes and Power Attack as bonus feats; the straight warblade gets a better maneuver progression and marginally better skills and HP. Either way, I'll take Adaptive Style and Martial Study at first-level, then Stand Still at third.

I've thought about it and can't see a very good reason to take psionic feats or levels. The only benefit I'd get would be the ability to take 15 on Concentration checks, and I can probably get Concentration high enough that I'll normally make the rolls anyway. I will take Autohypnosis, though.

At the moment I'm leaning towards the straight Warblade, for the greater maneuver variety. Being able to switch out maneuvers as Lemur says will help a lot.

- Saph

CASTLEMIKE
2008-01-02, 12:59 PM
Have fun with the PC.

Chronicled
2008-01-02, 01:13 PM
Alright, I'm probably going to go with human after all. At the moment the choice is between Warblade 1 / Fighter 2 / Warblade 3+, and just a straight-classed Warblade. The fighter variant gets Combat Reflexes and Power Attack as bonus feats; the straight warblade gets a better maneuver progression and marginally better skills and HP. Either way, I'll take Adaptive Style and Martial Study at first-level, then Stand Still at third.

I've thought about it and can't see a very good reason to take psionic feats or levels. The only benefit I'd get would be the ability to take 15 on Concentration checks, and I can probably get Concentration high enough that I'll normally make the rolls anyway. I will take Autohypnosis, though.

At the moment I'm leaning towards the straight Warblade, for the greater maneuver variety. Being able to switch out maneuvers as Lemur says will help a lot.

- Saph

Without a focus in the Diamond Mind discipline, you don't have to worry about the focus (it works bst with things like Ruby Nightmare Blade).

Either of the races that you're looking at would work well; the low Int and Con are not devestating to a Warblade--the Int bonuses early on aren't spectacular, and you have a d12 HD.

If you want to have a glaive controller, Stand Still is a must, even without Combat Reflexes.

I'll mention again that I think Hunter's Sense isn't worth taking a Tiger Claw maneuver that you won't use, nor giving up Punishing Stance.

Rachel is right about needing Crusader IL to get Crusader maneuvers. Have you considered a Warblade/Crusader mix?

Draz74
2008-01-02, 01:14 PM
Sounds good. I think you're ignoring a lot of suggestions here that were just too complicated, or were intended to benefit the character more at a later level than you're expecting on reaching. So I think your simple choice is a good one.

You could still think about doing the Psionic thing, simply by (eventually) taking the Wild Talent feat. If the campaign gets that far. You don't have to prioritize it above other feats that are crucial to your character concept. When making the decision, think of it as a feat that basically just gives you +5 to a Concentration check once per encounter. Which is actually pretty weak; Skill Focus: Concentration may actually be better.

Jacob Orlove
2008-01-02, 01:22 PM
Don't forget that Fighter levels will also give you proficiency with the normal and composite Longbow (and Shortbows). Otherwise, you'll be stuck with some disappointing combination of Javelins, Sling, and Crossbow.

If you do go for straight Warblade, definitely carry around a sling and some javelins, though. They're much better than nothing.

Saph
2008-01-02, 02:50 PM
I'll mention again that I think Hunter's Sense isn't worth taking a Tiger Claw maneuver that you won't use, nor giving up Punishing Stance.

Rachel is right about needing Crusader IL to get Crusader maneuvers. Have you considered a Warblade/Crusader mix?

Yeah, I'm really tempted to get Punishing Stance . . . but Hunter's Sense means that I can actually detect enemies (since my Listen/Spot is going to be basically zero) and can do something out of combat. It's a tough one - still haven't made up my mind, and Punishing Stance does go a lot better with Stand Still, practically guaranteeing that they'll need natural 20s on their Reflex.

I don't know why Rachel thinks I need Crusader IL to get Devoted Spirit maneuvers. I can't find any reference to it in my copy of ToB, and there's no official errata as far as I know.

- Saph

CASTLEMIKE
2008-01-02, 03:24 PM
I don't know why Rachel thinks I need Crusader IL to get Devoted Spirit maneuvers. I can't find any reference to it in my copy of ToB, and there's no official errata as far as I know.

- Saph

Probably ToB page 48 Table 4-1 (unless using something like Martial Study)

Devoted Spirit: Crusader Yes, Warblade No, Swordsage No

Draz74
2008-01-02, 03:31 PM
Probably ToB page 48 Table 4-1 (unless using something like Martial Study)

Devoted Spirit: Crusader Yes, Warblade No, Swordsage No

But Saph is using Martial Study.

Lemur
2008-01-02, 04:19 PM
I think the confusion comes from page 39, which describes how initiator level works with multiclassing. You only count half your levels in one martial adept class towards initiator levels in another one, when multiclassing. So a 4th level warblade who takes a level of crusader at character level 5 cannot qualify for any 3rd level maneuvers from crusader.

Martial Study works differently, however. With martial study, any levels in a single martial adept class can qualify you in terms of initiator level according to the feat. You're getting the maneuver from the feat, not from multiclassing, so multiclassing rules on initiator level don't apply. The feat adds the maneuver to your list of maneuvers known for a particular martial adept class, even if it's from a school you couldn't ordinarily learn.

I was originally confused about how this all worked out myself, so I think I can see where the idea that you can't take devoted spirit maneuvers without being a crusader or being higher level comes from. After examing the text more carefully, I think the above description is the correct understanding, unless there's something else that contests it.

Summary: You should be fine taking devoted spirit maneuvers with martial study. :p