Why doesn't Roy multiclass already?!!!

[paladinofshojo]

I'm just wondering if you guys think Roy should multiclass already, since the god's didn't give him a wisdom score better then the freaken party wizard's for wasting talent!!Seriously, he even said himself that he's not taking down Xykon anymore to prove his dad wrong but to save the world. So WHY DOESN'T HE MULTICLASS!!!:smallfurious: I mean comeone, it was due to his incompetence that Azure City fell, he could of atleast taken 1 level in wizard to "featherfall". If he doesn't want to be a wizard, fine he could atleast take a level in Eidritch Knight or Paladin, but COMEONE HOW THE HELL CAN A SINGLE CLASS FIGHTER TAKE ON AN EPIC LEVEL LICH SORCERER PROBABLY 6 LEVELS ABOVE HIM!!!:smallfurious: . He would of already been done with this stupid quest to destroy Xykon if it wasn't for his "common sense".

[Glyde]

Because he's dead.

[Goats_o_Mjolnir]

ZING!, also it might be hero worship of his grandfather + rebelling against his ornery dads wishes

[Mauve Shirt]

He wants to prove to his father that a fighter CAN beat an epic level lich sorcerer.

[Green Bean]

I agree completely. Sure, a single-class Wizard would have been killed much earlier in the fight with Xykon, thanks to the opening Finger of Death. And maybe the reason Roy lost has more to do with the six level gap than anyone's class choice. And maybe he can't become a Paladin, mainly because Belkar would cause him to instantly fall. And yes, switching to a spellcasting class now would mean he wouldn't be able to cast spells above level four until he hits Epic levels. But you can't let little things like logic and (fictional) reality get in your way when you're saving the world. :smalltongue:

[Zencao]

Because he's a character with thoughts and emotions influencing his decisions. Not a jumble of stats and numbers.

[Porthos]

Because Roy is an actual "person" and not a player running a character. And the actual "person" in this case wants to be a pure fighter, even though there are other avenues available to him.

Personal desires and motivations, in other words. :smallsmile:

[Orzel]

ZING!, also it might be hero worship of his grandfather + rebelling against his ornery dads wishes

That and his personality wouldn't fit any of the other classes because of the above.

[Fanatic-Templar]

Because Roy is an actual "person" and not a player running a character. And the actual "person" in this case wants to be a pure fighter, even though there are other avenues available to him.

Personal desires and motivations, in other words. :smallsmile:

Bingo.

Roy is free to choose the life he wants to. Just the same as Belkar is free to continue being evil in a group of good or close-to-good characters. Choice over fate.

[memnarch]

Because he's dead.

If I read and understood this right, it's because Roy happened to have died and now really has no way of multiclassing atm?



Because Roy is an actual "person" and not a player running a character. And the actual "person" in this case wants to be a pure fighter, even though there are other avenues available to him.

Personal desires and motivations, in other words. :smallsmile:

Personally, I think Porthos hit the nail on the head here.

[the_tick_rules]

because OOTS is not about power gaming.

[Bel_Bel]

because OOTS is not about power gaming.

Of course it is! What is this silliness I hear about "actual person" and "personal reasons". Bah! Humbug! I say Roy should design his next few levels to maximize his ability to combat the evil lich sorcerer trying to take over the world, not waste them in petty "fighter" levels. It is an insult to power-gamers everywhere!

As you can probably tell, that was a satirical rant. Yeah, the reasons listed above pretty much sum it up.

[tenguro]

even though it probly never happen I wouldn't mind Roy taking some levels in warblade, who knows, maybe that feat that his grandfather knows isn't really a feat, but a maneuver. I know most of my theories are...not so intelligent.

[monty]

Of course it is! What is this silliness I hear about "actual person" and "personal reasons". Bah! Humbug! I say Roy should design his next few levels to maximize his ability to combat the evil lich sorcerer trying to take over the world, not waste them in petty "fighter" levels. It is an insult to power-gamers everywhere!

Exactly. What's all this crap about "motivation"? He should've been a druid from the start.:smallbiggrin:

[Charles Phipps]

Because first level spells suck for a High Level Fighter vs. the slow crawl to EPIC LEVEL.

[Gitman00]

Because Roy is an actual "person" and not a player running a character. And the actual "person" in this case wants to be a pure fighter, even though there are other avenues available to him.


because OOTS is not about power gaming.

That's it. The main gag when the comic started was that the OotS was a dysfunctional group of woefully underoptimized adventurers. You have an archer rogue without a backup melee weapon, which means she can't flank. You have a dual-dagger-wielding halfling ranger with a wisdom penalty and no ranks in Spot or Survival. You have a wizard who specializes in evocation and has conjuration and necromancy as his/her barred schools. And then there's Elan. 'Nuff said. Durkon and Roy have the best "builds" of anyone in the party, but they're not munchkins.

The fact is, and I know this has been pointed out before, this is not a DnD campaign, ergo there are no players saying, "how can I best build a character to defeat an epic-level lich?" It's a story set in a world that happens to run on DnD 3.5 rules. Roy deliberately chose the path of the fighter because that's what he wanted to do. He comes from a long line of warriors, and he sees it as his legacy.

[Alex Warlorn]

Because Roy's being stubborn. There is nothing wrong with multi-classing. It's a perfectly healthy career choice.

[Superglucose]

Q: In Strip #X, why didn.t character Y take action Z? If they had done so, they could have avoided a whole lot of trouble.

A: You just answered your own question. The strip is ABOUT the trouble these characters get in; if a tactic would result in an effortless solution to their latest problem, there would be little point in showing it, see? The characters are woefully inefficient as a result, and often take actions that are rarely seen in a real D&D game, like running away from moderate danger or .forgetting. major abilities for the sake of a joke. But their foibles are what fuel the humor.

Seriously, the question is asked too many times.

A) Roy's dead. Good luck learning stuff when you're pushing up daisies (or whatever flower exists in AC)
B) He doesn't WANT to. He wants to be a greatsword fighter, which is fine.
C) unless your munchkining, you're going to have a hard time beating a lich sorceror six levels over you. Especially one with an army and high level cleric who can keep the lich happy and healthy and buffed, and who also has :mitd: as a backup plan.
D) above quote.

Take your pick for favorite reason.

[brilliantlight]

If Roy took just one level of cleric he could become a hunter of the dead which would mean that the lich could not come back if killed by Roy after Roy made 5th lvl. If Roy is more concerned about saving the world instead of showing up his father he might consider that.

[David Argall]

I doubt a Hunter of the Dead would work, but an Occult Slayer might have a decent chance vs a lich.

[brilliantlight]

Shrug. Depends on DM. It says undead slain not undead slain unless they are liches.

[Icewalker]

Because Roy is an actual "person" and not a player running a character. And the actual "person" in this case wants to be a pure fighter, even though there are other avenues available to him.

Personal desires and motivations, in other words. :smallsmile:

thank you. So few people realize this.

Also, this is what dnd characters should be like. Yeah.

[brilliantlight]

People yes. In Roy's case he should be people going strongly against the undead as his main opponent is a lich. A pure fighter isn't as easily going to stop :xykon: from taking over the world which should be Roy's first goal.

[Porthos]

People yes. In Roy's case he should be people going strongly against the undead as his main opponent is a lich. A pure fighter isn't as easily going to stop :xykon: from taking over the world which should be Roy's first goal.

But the mind is a terrible and wonderful thing to deal with. Wonderful as it gives plenty of avenues to pursue. But terrible as well because it can throw up it's own Road Blocks.

Would it be more "effective" (Gawd, how I hate that word in DnD discussions) if Roy was something other than a Pure Fighter? Sure. But that's not how Roy thinks. Might as well ask Belkar not to stab random people for fun or Xykon to not poke about with dangerous magics while you're at it.

Besides, it's very hard for a 13th level anything to take out a 20th+ level caster. :smallamused: Especially one as single-minded as Xykon.

Besides, when it comes right down to it, Roy likes being a Fighter. And as long as he can rally his troops and use his teammates talents "effectively" then it doesn't matter if he is a Pure Fighter or not. He just has to learn to stay away from Arena Combat. :smalltongue:

[Felius]

People yes. In Roy's case he should be people going strongly against the undead as his main opponent is a lich. A pure fighter isn't as easily going to stop :xykon: from taking over the world which should be Roy's first goal.

He is a player character. Therefore he will.

[The Wanderer]

People yes. In Roy's case he should be people going strongly against the undead as his main opponent is a lich. A pure fighter isn't as easily going to stop :xykon: from taking over the world which should be Roy's first goal.

But it's not as if he's trying to take Xykon down alone, is he? Besides, it wouldn't matter. If he'd been multi-class from the start, he'd just have, say, 7 levels of one thing, 6 of another, and still have plenty of trouble taking down a level 20 lich sorcerer. If he multi-classed now, he'd have to spend a long time building up levels in his second class before it would be effective, while the fabric of the world was unraveling.

That's why he has has a party with different abilities that compliment each other. Besides, not all of Roy's life is dedicated to take down the lich. He'll have other things to do in the meantime, and if he succeeds, afterwards as well. So he's not going to dedicate himself and his every decision to that goal.

[The Extinguisher]

Yeah, that's one problem I find in character discussions.

We don't want a one-man party!

[factotum]

If Roy was purely motivated by a desire to defeat Xykon solo he'd ask someone to resurrect him as a Death Knight--with that Spell Resistance and Damage Reduction he might actually stand a chance! :smallbiggrin:

[Alfryd]

ZING!, also it might be hero worship of his grandfather + rebelling against his ornery dads wishes...
Yeah, but that's allowing his ego to get in the way of effectiveness, when Roy's already admitted that this is about saving the world, not ticking off his Dad.

I agree completely. Sure, a single-class Wizard would have been killed much earlier in the fight with Xykon, thanks to the opening Finger of Death.
A single-class wizard wouldn't have been jumping on dragon-back to duke it out with a greatsword. He'd have zapped Xykon with multiple disintegrate spells and waited for him to fail his Fort save, having buffed himself from head to toe in every protective spell that he and his party cleric could provide. Sure, if he's 6-8 levels lower he's very probably still going to have his ass handed to him, but he'd have had a better chance of doing real damage.

The only reason Roy got a chance to do damage at all, as has been made painfully clear, is because Xykon wanted to evaluate exactly how much amusement could be had by permitting Roy the fleeting illusion of relevance.

It's not just that fighters are uncompetitive compared with primary casters- so are 'most every class- but they don't even compete well in terms of straightforward melee combat at higher levels, versus barbarians or even clerics.

There have got to be plenty of reasonably effective prestige classes, certainly in 3rd-party sourcebooks, that would allow him to cut his losses after 14 levels of fighter. If Roy is willing to set his BAB machismo aside for a moment, he could crack open the Tome of Battle and see about spicing up his repertoire a wee bit. It's time for Roy to get outta that rut.

So he's not going to dedicate himself and his every decision to that goal.
When THE FATE OF THE WORLD is at stake, I'm afraid considerations such as these tend to pale into isignificance.

[Porthos]

When THE FATE OF THE WORLD is at stake, I'm afraid considerations such as these tend to pale into isignificance.

Oh well. I guess it sucks for the rest of the world that Roy is so hard headed, eh?

What's the phrase? Oh yes:

You go to war with the PCs you have, not the PCs you wish you had. :smalltongue:

[Behold_the_Void]

What would he multiclass into? Thus far we've only seen classes out of Core, a homebrew prestige class gleaned from an obscure source book, and a reference to a class in the Expanded Psionics Handbook (personally I'd love to see Roy go Warmind, but we'll let that slide).

As it stands, he doesn't exactly have a lot of options going for him that we KNOW he'd be able to take. Most OotS-verse people tend to be single-classed.

[The Extinguisher]

Your right, a Level 13 Wizard-Roy wouldn't have jumped on the dragon.
Because his corpse would be rotting in the Dungeon of Durokan while Xykon ruled the world.

He's an Epic-Level Sorceror who takes out Epic-Level Wizards and Druids. Roy has the best normal build (normal refering to sensible, not random prestige classes from obscure books) for taking on Xykon.
Sure, fighters may suck compared to magic-users. But do you know what sucks more than fighters? Lower level magic users.

So Roy's pretty optimized to take out the Lich, other than having no chance at all.

[Ancalagon]

I mean comeone, it was due to his incompetence that Azure City fell,
Nope. Azure City fell because the city was attacked by an epic sorcerer and a high level cleric (who used great tatics) and an army which was a few times bigger than the defending one.


COMEONE HOW THE HELL CAN A SINGLE CLASS FIGHTER TAKE ON AN EPIC LEVEL LICH SORCERER PROBABLY 6 LEVELS ABOVE HIM!!!:smallfurious: . He would of already been done with this stupid quest to destroy Xykon if it wasn't for his "common sense".
No class can destroy an epic lich that is 8 levels above your own. It does not matter.
Apart from that, a pure fighter is an insane fighting machine. Believe it or not, a fighter has better chances get someone like Xykon down than a Paladin or... no, Roy should go all the way to 20 as fighter. One or two levels of wizard are a perfect waste, as would be one or two levels of everything else.

PS: Using capslock decreases your credibility.
As a rule of thumb: If you think you have to write in caps-lock, the things you want to write are not as important as you may think. Only a few things are worth to be written in caps. ;)

[Kish]

If Roy took just one level of cleric he could become a hunter of the dead which would mean that the lich could not come back if killed by Roy after Roy made 5th lvl. If Roy is more concerned about saving the world instead of showing up his father he might consider that.
So you're saying, if Roy dedicated his next six levels to a prestige class which may or may not exist in his world but has never been mentioned, and then somehow killed Xykon again, he wouldn't need to bother smashing Xykon's phylactery? Well that certainly sounds worth it.

[Veridian]

I bet though, even if he did consider taking a new class - he'd first have to find someone to teach him (rather than spontaneously gaining the class on the spot). Elan got training (brief training, but training) for his Dashing Swordsman prestige class. So, all these mystical magical wonderful prestige classes might be there, but have we seen any NPC that could possibly teach him? Nope.

So the only choices he could really consider (if he were still drawing breath on the mortal plane) are classes that his team already has. And what use would it be multiclassing to ranger, rogue, cleric, wizard, or bard at this point? A lvl 13-ish fighter/1 cleric? His turn undead would be a joke at best. So would his spells. You get the idea :smallsmile:

If he could find a instructor of some kind, I believe he might take a martial-based prestige class (weapon master, for example), but we have yet to see any such person in the comic yet...

[Hagentai]

Because he's a character with thoughts and emotions influencing his decisions. Not a jumble of stats and numbers.


I agree with everything your saying.. it's perfect and on the mark.

But because Belkar considered multi classing he is just a jumble of stats and numbers? TSK, tsk sir.

[factotum]

Thus far we've only seen classes out of Core, a homebrew prestige class gleaned from an obscure source book, and a reference to a class in the Expanded Psionics Handbook (personally I'd love to see Roy go Warmind, but we'll let that slide).


Don't forget the Shadowdancer they met at the inn.

[Kesnit]

If he could find a instructor of some kind, I believe he might take a martial-based prestige class (weapon master, for example), but we have yet to see any such person in the comic yet...

Weapon Masters are, by definition, just "masters" of their weapon of choice. By using the weapon, they get better and better at knowing how it works and how to use it to optimum performance. So in theory, he could take WM levels without needing a trainer because he gets that training in battle.

Of course, the strength of WM's is their enhanced crits, and :xykon:, as an undead, is crit immune, so...

[Klose_the_Sith]

Because Roy is much too cool too multiclass, although it could be interesting I suspect that the next multiclassing will be done by Belkar.

If Roy had been a wizard then the comic would be ... really lame ... like lamer then the English Premier League.

Firstly, V wouldn't be in the party

Seriously, have you people given that a shred of thought?

Secondly, Roy would be a rubbish character

"I will carry on the honour of my family descended from great warriors ... by being exactly the same as my dad who completely broke my families tradition."

Thirdly, Xykon would've crushed Roy instantly back in the Dungeon of Dorukan, thrillsville, a comic without V, Roy (and by extension) Roys family

woot ...

[Gitman00]

If Roy had been a wizard then the comic would be ... really lame ... like lamer then the English Premier League.

Firstly, V wouldn't be in the party

Seriously, have you people given that a shred of thought?

Secondly, Roy would be a rubbish character

"I will carry on the honour of my family descended from great warriors ... by being exactly the same as my dad who completely broke my families tradition."

Thirdly, Xykon would've crushed Roy instantly back in the Dungeon of Dorukan, thrillsville, a comic without V, Roy (and by extension) Roys family

woot ...

Actually...

(Dungeon Crawlin' Fools)
The Giant originally conceived Roy as a wizard. In the first comic, however, he wanted a pedantic know-it-all to explain the upgrade to 3.5, and he didn't want Roy do do this. So, he came up with Vaarsuvius and made Roy a fighter at the last minute.

Something tells me had Roy stayed a wizard his backstory would have been different. Just a hunch. :smallwink:

[Veridian]

Weapon Masters are, by definition, just "masters" of their weapon of choice. By using the weapon, they get better and better at knowing how it works and how to use it to optimum performance. So in theory, he could take WM levels without needing a trainer because he gets that training in battle.

Of course, the strength of WM's is their enhanced crits, and :xykon:, as an undead, is crit immune, so...

Good point, he possibly could become a weapon master without special training (though it was merely an example of what sort of class I thought he might take - if he takes one at all). I doubt he'd much care for metagaming on whether Xykon was crit immune, he doesn't strike me as the sort to do that.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Actually...

(Dungeon Crawlin' Fools)
The Giant originally conceived Roy as a wizard. In the first comic, however, he wanted a pedantic know-it-all to explain the upgrade to 3.5, and he didn't want Roy do do this. So, he came up with Vaarsuvius and made Roy a fighter at the last minute.

Something tells me had Roy stayed a wizard his backstory would have been different. Just a hunch. :smallwink:

But in doing so it would still totally screw up Roy and ... Roy's dad, and thats just not cool. Although a single class wizard would beat a fighter with a couple useless levels in wizard

Plus, I'm jealous. You can get copies of OOTS books

*sniff*

[Kesnit]

Good point, he possibly could become a weapon master without special training (though it was merely an example of what sort of class I thought he might take - if he takes one at all).

Understood. I was just speculating a little :) We know Roy has a temper, so maybe Frenzied Berzerker..? (Or does that require Barbarian levels?)


I doubt he'd much care for metagaming on whether Xykon was crit immune, he doesn't strike me as the sort to do that.

You're right. However, there is nothing that says readers can't metagame! :smallbiggrin:

[Mugen Nightgale]

I think Roy is no longer concerned about this "all the way Fighter" thing. He loves being a Fighter and he loved when his grand father said he was proud. But he knows that just that won't be enough to kick the sun lights outta Xyckon. In my humble opinion I think he might want to consider taking a PrC. That would be awesome cuz If he managed to get a use for a bag of Tricks what he could do with a whole lot of choices of new powers? But we've seen his grand father talking bout teaching him that weird overpowered feat. So I guess Rich really wants Roy to stay a Fighter.

[bluish_wolf]

Good point, he possibly could become a weapon master without special training (though it was merely an example of what sort of class I thought he might take - if he takes one at all). I doubt he'd much care for metagaming on whether Xykon was crit immune, he doesn't strike me as the sort to do that.

I doubt anyone would spend most of their time learning how to hit vital areas when they are training to fight a creature without organs.

[Crimson Avenger]

Me personally, don't know what the big deal is about him staying a straight fighter. Every party needs a tank, and a fighter is a tank with options. I'd much rather have a fighter in the party than have the cleric or druid be a substitute tank, it detracts from their primary purpose, spellcasting. I don't want my cleric casting power-ups when combat begins, I want him dishing out a Flame Strike or a Balde Barrier, I want the druid casting Briar Web or maybe a Call Lightning.

I may have simple wants, but I want my spellcasters to compliment my melee characters, not compete with them.

Besides, clerics and druids can't move to engage, attack three times, move away, all as a standard action all without provoking AoO's.

Rapid Assult

[Roupe]

Something tells me that Roy has Higher intelligence than Varsuvius -at least at the start of their adventure. So he choose warrior not because he didnt have the stats to be a powerfull wizard, but because he wanted to be a warrior.

[Veridian]

I doubt anyone would spend most of their time learning how to hit vital areas when they are training to fight a creature without organs.

Except, he hasn't been training to fight a creature without organs. At no point has he undergone training for, nor wished for any special fighter-based trick to do this :smallsmile:

Not saying he can't or shouldn't, I don't like 'pure' PC's when I make them myself, so if I were the player of Roy, I would have taken a PrC long ago...but he hasn't, nor has he shown a specific desire to train especially to defeat a lich-sorceror. In fact, the only desire we've seen from him is that he desires to defeat Xykon as a fighter, to prove to his father that fighters are capable too :smallwink:

All of course, is just my opinions and observations.

[Alysar]

Let's split a few hairs, here.

Is it that Roy wants to be a straight fighter, or that he doesn't want to use magic? There are plenty of prestige classes that aren't casters and have no spell-like class feats. One of those could definitely give him an edge.

How does Roy feel about supernatural class feats?

[Nargrakhan]

Bah... Roy should just stay single classed.

When 4th edition rolls around - and he gets all those Wu-shu and Anime inspired powers - Roy will kick serious ass. :smallamused:

[Neftren]

I think the root answer to this is that basically every class or race or NPC you see is in the core rules.

Roy: Fighter
Haley: Rogue
Durkon: Cleric
Belkar: Ranger/Barbarian
Elan: Bard/Flashing-whatever-- Swordsman*

With the exception of Elan's PrC (which most definitely doesn't exist to my knowledge), they're all core classes. Although I think Elan should have taken the Duelist class if he were being trained by Captain Scoundrél.

[Glyde]

If I read and understood this right, it's because Roy happened to have died and now really has no way of multiclassing atm?



That was the joke, yeah. >_>

[Alysar]

I think the root answer to this is that basically every class or race or NPC you see is in the core rules.

Roy: Fighter
Haley: Rogue
Durkon: Cleric
Belkar: Ranger/Barbarian
Elan: Bard/Flashing-whatever-- Swordsman*



Haley would have definitely preferred it if Elan had taken Flashing Swordsman.

A huge chunk of the female readership probably would prefer it too.

[Zenos]

Understood. I was just speculating a little :) We know Roy has a temper, so maybe Frenzied Berzerker..? (Or does that require Barbarian levels?)



You're right. However, there is nothing that says readers can't metagame! :smallbiggrin:

No. It requires BaB and some cleave feats, but not Barb levels.

[CabbageTheif]

#498
roy and his grandfathe are both proud straight fighters. they will keep it that way, out of pride.

[brilliantlight]

So you're saying, if Roy dedicated his next six levels to a prestige class which may or may not exist in his world but has never been mentioned, and then somehow killed Xykon again, he wouldn't need to bother smashing Xykon's phylactery? Well that certainly sounds worth it.

That the prestige may or may not exist is a point but Xykon has TONS of undead underneath him and the prestige class does more then make sure destroyed undead stay destroyed. The class is from The Complete Warrior if you want to look at it.

[Kesnit]

Haley would have definitely preferred it if Elan had taken Flashing Swordsman.

A huge chunk of the female readership probably would prefer it too.

I would say he already did. I can't remember the number, but there was that one strip where Elan went "invisible..."

[roadkiller]

I would say he already did. I can't remember the number, but there was that one strip where Elan went "invisible..."

That would start here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0025.html)

[*Templar*]

Something tells me that Roy has Higher intelligence than Varsuvius -at least at the start of their adventure.

Eh, I doubt it. I wouldn't be surprised if he has higher wisdom, but not intelligence. That's how I always interpreted the way the Mind Flayer visualized the two of them.

[Kish]

But he knows that just that won't be enough to kick the sun lights outta Xyckon.
We've seen 1) Roy's father, and 2) people on this board, say a fighter couldn't possibly beat Xykon. We've never seen Roy show any sign that he believes that, though.

[Solo]

Roy could multiclass into Psychic Warrior.

That way he could be future psychic!

[Rutee]

Haley would have definitely preferred it if Elan had taken Flashing Swordsman.

A huge chunk of the female readership probably would prefer it too.

I'd like tot hink that we're not quite so concerned with Elan as Flashing Swordsman as the boys would be with Haley as Flashing Rogue..

[Kish]

I'd like tot hink that we're not quite so concerned with Elan as Flashing Swordsman as the boys would be with Haley as Flashing Rogue..
He has higher Charisma than she does, so I wouldn't be too sure.

[Alysar]

I'd like tot hink that we're not quite so concerned with Elan as Flashing Swordsman as the boys would be with Haley as Flashing Rogue..

And you'd be right about that. I said a huge chunk of the female readership would prefer it. Nearly all of the guys would be interested in seeing Haley as a flashing Rogue. The only ones that wouldn't would be the guys who would be more interested in Elan (and that's perfectly alright too)

[bluish_wolf]

I'm not sure if I would want to see Haley half-naked. She apparently has really large breasts. Flat-chested girls are better.

[Crimson Avenger]

No. It requires BaB and some cleave feats, but not Barb levels.

I think you need to have Rage or Frenzy from another source at least once a day to get into Frenzied Beserker.

[Behold_the_Void]

Don't forget the Shadowdancer they met at the inn.

Which is Core, it's a DMG Prestige Class :)

[Milandros]

Understood. I was just speculating a little :) We know Roy has a temper, so maybe Frenzied Berzerker..? (Or does that require Barbarian levels?)



That's a stunningly bad idea.

Three strips later a goblin hits him with an arrow for 2 points of damage. Belkar wins the initiative and kills the goblin. Roy then cuts Varsuuvius in two with a full attack, before proceeding to kill Elan and Haley before Durkon and Belkar finally kill him.

Frenzied Beserkers are a seriously bad idea in a PC group. I really don't think they're intended as PC material. Munchkins love the whole "deathless frenzy" thing though, and come up with all sorts of wierd combinations to allow other PCs to survive (or simply "forget" about the berserk attacking ally rules).

[Alysar]

I'm not sure if I would want to see Haley half-naked. She apparently has really large breasts. Flat-chested girls are better.

All breasts are great. Big, small, whatever.

[Kai Maera]

All breasts are great. Big, small, whatever.
Quoted for awesome.

Anyway, Roy's best bet is to gain some sort of wicked template right now, since everyone has pointed out that he's going to lose a level when he is resurrected. But he probably won't multiclass - ever - because he wants to be a warrior (fighter, whatever). I think perhaps the best thing to point out is that Roy's got a disadvantage in trying to cut a skeleton to pieces, as compared to simply crushing it to dust. Get him an enchanted club!

[memnarch]

Wouldn't Roy sword (with it's starmetal) be effective already against Xykon, who is a Lich (undead), not a skeleton?:smallconfused:

[Superglucose]

I agree with everything your saying.. it's perfect and on the mark.

But because Belkar considered multi classing he is just a jumble of stats and numbers? TSK, tsk sir.

Belkar wasn't multiclassing and chosing it based on which recieved the greatest stat bonuses. He chose Barbarian because it sounded cool and seemed cool.

[tyckspoon]

Wouldn't Roy sword (with it's starmetal) be effective already against Xykon, who is a Lich (undead), not a skeleton?:smallconfused:

DR 15/ magic and bludgeoning. Assuming the effect of the green flares is extra damage (typically 1 or 2d6 more for similar enchantments) and doesn't pierce the DR, he's not getting enough from it to break all of the DR- he would have had a more effective weapon if he'd just had Magic Weapon cast on a greatclub.

[The Extinguisher]

He seems to be (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0434.html) doing fine to me (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html)

I mean, until he died that is.

[Rutee]

He seems to be (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0434.html) doing fine to me (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html)

I mean, until he died that is.

I don't think you can say he really did that well. I mean, he was /hurting/ him, sure, but look at how long he lasted after Xykon got serious.

[sun_tzu]

I don't think you can say he really did that well. I mean, he was /hurting/ him, sure, but look at how long he lasted after Xykon got serious.

But they were fighting in an environment that greatly favored Xykon.

[factotum]

I don't think you can say he really did that well. I mean, he was /hurting/ him, sure, but look at how long he lasted after Xykon got serious.

I think the point being made was that Roy's sword was clearly capable of damaging Xykon even through his DR, not that he was doing especially well in the fight...

[Klose_the_Sith]

We've seen 1) Roy's father, and 2) people on this board, say a fighter couldn't possibly beat Xykon. We've never seen Roy show any sign that he believes that, though.

Very True, he already destroyed Xykons body so if he then killed Redcloak it's all over, but when he comes back I expect him to get a ring of feather fall

[Decoy Lockbox]

Roy will most certainly succeed in his quest to destroy Xykon, because he has the awesome power of plot on his side. However, in an actual game of D&D, a single class fighter who wanted to take down a lich would be the laughingstock of the party.

One thing that a lot of people in this discussion might not realize is exactly how massive the difference in power is between fighters and spellcasters in D&D (especially at the mid levels and afterward). The spellcasters have the edge not because of their ability to dish out copious amounts of damage, but because of their ability to alter the very "rules of the game", if you will.
When the enemy spellcaster starts flying, goes invisible, summons a wall of force in your way, surrounds you with a cage made of force, etc, it becomes exceedingly difficult to execute the standard fighter plan of "run up and hack the enemy to pieces".

Based on their fight in skies above Azure City, we already know that Roy is incapable of taking down Xykon in one round, which is all the time that the lich needs to effectively end the fight with a spell like forcecage, dominate person, mordenkainen's disjunction, etc. Heck, he could even use feeblemind on Roy for added comic effect (since Roy has always prided himself on his intellect).

But of course, Roy will ultimately face Xykon with the aid of his friends in the OOTS. Unfortunately, this will likely not be enough to stop him (in a real D&D game that is). Haley's arrows are useless against Xykon due to his damage reduction, and he is immune to sneak attacks since he is undead. Belkar would be unable to pierce the damage reduction as well, or even reach Xykon if the lich decided to start flying (which he totally would). Elan would similarly be unable to damage Xykon.
Vaarsuvius and Durkon would be the party's best hope (notice that the party's spellcasters are the only ones able to really do anything here). The best spell for Vaarsuvius here to use would be Disintegrate, a spell which can easily kill a spellcaster (at least the d4 hit die kind) in one blow...against Xykon, with his lack of a constitution score and low base fortitude save, Disintegrate would be the magic bullet the party needs. Unless of course he was invisible, protected by Ray Deflection, or under the influence of displacement/blink/mirror image/blur. But that would just be mean right?

Alternatively, V and Durkon could use a rather unorthodox strategy that could also work well. Durkon would use the ready action to ready a Heal spell (i.e. the 6th level one that heals 10 HP/level) until he is within range of Xykon, and V would use dimension door to teleport both of them into melee range of the lich. Durkon's spell would go off, and provided Xykon fails his will save, he would most likely be converted into a pile of dust on the ground.

The point I'm trying to get across here is that you can't realistically combat a high level spellcaster using physical means...outside of sneaking up him when the mage is asleep and coup de gracing him.

I predict that the OOTS will defeat Xykon using clever tactics, and that Xykon's own stupidity will be his downfall. But Roy should really just stay a single class fighter. Switching classes at this point would be like throwing bad money after bad. Warblade would be nice though :)

[ShellBullet]

It really depends what Gear Roy has when he faces Xykon. Gave some anti undead items to Oots and they suddenly have much greater chance to win Xykon...

I mean it's fight against +20 level lich sorcerer, so they must have some nice weapons and armors to face him.

[David Argall]

One thing that a lot of people in this discussion might not realize is exactly how massive the difference in power is between fighters and spellcasters in D&D
Based on their fight in skies above Azure City, we already know that Roy is incapable of taking down Xykon in one round,
Xykon had 8 levels on Roy. That means he [with any wimp class] would wipe the floor with Roy [no matter what class]


which is all the time that the lich needs to effectively end the fight with a spell like forcecage, dominate person, mordenkainen's disjunction, etc. Heck, he could even use feeblemind on Roy for added comic effect (since Roy has always prided himself on his intellect).
Xykon doesn't know Mordenkainen's, and his 7ths are likely Finger of Death [used], Prismatic Spray, Powerword Blind, or Delayed Blast Fireball


But of course, Roy will ultimately face Xykon with the aid of his friends in the OOTS. Unfortunately, this will likely not be enough to stop him (in a real D&D game that is). Haley's arrows are useless against Xykon due to his damage reduction,
In a real D&D game, Haley would be tricked up, say with a Holy bow with Undead Bane and shooting blunt arrows that give bludgeoning damage. That still wouldn't make her a real archer that could just down Xykon in a round, but it would be enough to make Xykon spend a round or two neutralizing her.
The rest of the party would also be well able to contribute to the battle, especially if we assume that the party will know a good deal more about Xykon than they will about him. If they get to choose the battleground, and a few levels, Xykon is in real trouble.


The point I'm trying to get across here is that you can't realistically combat a high level spellcaster using physical means.
The fighter gets to use magic toys too. Boots of flying and a ring of invisibility gives the fighter the chance to get close enough to unload 200 hp on the lich.



DR 15/ magic and bludgeoning. Assuming the effect of the green flares is extra damage (typically 1 or 2d6 more for similar enchantments) and doesn't pierce the DR, he's not getting enough from it to break all of the DR- he would have had a more effective weapon if he'd just had Magic Weapon cast on a greatclub.

Roy has Weapon Specialization, and likely some other greatsword centered feats. Add in that he would need a 20th level caster to make that greatclub +5 and he will normally be better off just PA a lot and eat the DR.

[Gitman00]

Xykon doesn't know Mordenkainen's, and his 7ths are likely Finger of Death [used], Prismatic Spray, Powerword Blind, or Delayed Blast Fireball

There is no evidence for this, except for Finger of Death. And frankly, I think it's pretty likely that Forcecage is on his spell list, given the moderately escapable version he created.

[Hallavast]

There is no evidence for this, except for Finger of Death. And frankly, I think it's pretty likely that Forcecage is on his spell list, given the moderately escapable version he created.

Ah, but it is equally likely that Xykon's Moderately More Escapable Forcecage (XMMEF) is a lower level spell than forcecage would be. I mean, it is more escapable... :smalltongue:

[David Argall]

There is no evidence for this, except for Finger of Death.
There is definitely evidence. Not at all overwhelming, but clear evidence. Look at Exkon. He likes to kill things. So we predict he would want spells that do damage, as with Finger of Death.
in SOD we have "You just find the enemy and blast away at it with your magic." and "Your solution to every problem is to hit it with lightning.." "Sometimes I use fire." Clear testimony to his preference for damage spells.
Now I don't think we can find a spell that is more Xykon than Delayed Blast Fireball. The great joke of luring the foe right into their doom. I don't see how he could be persuaded not to learn it.
Not on my list, but an easy addition is of course Limited Wish, which can provide a sorcerer much needed variety in spells.



And frankly, I think it's pretty likely that Forcecage is on his spell list, given the moderately escapable version he created.
Given the limited number of spells he can have, I'd think the opposite. He only gets 3 choices at the higher levels, and so a forcecage at every level seems way too big a percentage. For most purposes, his version will do as well as Forcecage, so why deprive himself of a prime choice just to duplicate it?

[Droodle]

Why doesn't Roy multiclass already?!!!Because he knows they'll be transitioning to fourth edition before the final showdown and figures that single classed fighters will be getting a big boost. :smallsmile:

[Warshrike]

Because he's dead.

I don't know, care, nor intend on finding out how many other people have said this, but I concur.

[Khanderas]

If Roy took just one level of cleric he could become a hunter of the dead which would mean that the lich could not come back if killed by Roy after Roy made 5th lvl. If Roy is more concerned about saving the world instead of showing up his father he might consider that.
Roy is not mad about undeads in general (Durkon might be though with this sleep-turning) only Xyklon for being a threat to reality and his fathers blood oath-bound (he denies he does it for his dad, but Roy is a good guy). Oh and because Xyklon is a jerk who wont remember his name properly.

When Xyklon was killed the first time, they did not know he would respawn. When they did find out time was in short supply. Not enough time to farm XP for 5 (plus 1 cleric) levels more. That is assuming that PrC is available in his world. A PrC, like a magic item, is not something I feel you can pick up just because it exist. You gotta find it (or somone who sells it / trains you).

Roy takes pride in being a Fighter. The end.

[Crimson Avenger]

Have you considered how laughably easy it is to bypass 15 DR by the time you've reached Roy's level. He's weilding a +5 weapon for crying out loud, that does special vs undead. Even if that special is just 2d6 like Undead Bane or Holy, thats 4d6 + ?? every hit (remember that the magical enhancement would be +2 better). Without a Con modifier a lich can't stand that for very long, even an epic lich.

I've got a 9th level fighter with a STR of 22 (magical enhancement +2)

2d6 + 14, and I'm only weilding a +1 weapon. Damn, give me a +5 Holy or Bane weapon

2d6 + 20 + 2d6 that AVERAGES 20 pts of damage per hit after taking the DR 15 into account. A 20th level lich only averages 130 Hp to begin with. If the lich doesn't destroy the fighter or escape the fighter in the first round....he's probably toast. Roy's choice to be a single class fighter, perfectly valid.

Who's seriously afraid of a spellcaster after they've been Greater Dispelled?