Very cheesy Wilder idea

[Draz74]

Stop me if I'm wrong.

A party has two Wilders in it of at least 7th level. (Let's assume after 7 levels they PrC out.) Each of them spends one of their precious, few Powers Known on Bestow Power, which allows them to give another character 2 PP for every 3 PP they spend on manifesting it.

Both of them are low on PP for the day. So Wilder A manifests Bestow Power on his friend. He spends 3 PP manifesting it, plus another virtual 3 PP, courtesy of Wild Surge +3. Wilder B receives 4 PP for the cost of 3. Now he returns the favor, giving Wilder A 4 PP. Each of them now has 1 more PP than they had before the exchange.

Wash, rinse, and repeat. If Psychic Enervation strikes, they are Dazed for 6 seconds, which isn't important because this isn't taking place in combat. I guess Psychic Enervation also makes them lose 7 PP, though. It has a 15% chance of occuring. Someone run the math: on average, will they be gaining or losing PP in this exchange with Psychic Enervation factored in?

If gaining ... wow.

Of course, 2 Wilders with infinite PP per day (with a small risk of getting unlucky too) is only mildly scary, since Wilders tend to be an inflexible lot. But if their party members are also Psionic, and therefore can have Power Bestowed on them ... owch. (And for best effect, combine with Leadership cheese, and make the Wilders just be cohorts anyway!)

[CASTLEMIKE]

Edit: Sounds like it will work with level PCs possesing Wild Surge +3 who have the Enervation Endurance feat.

[RandomFellow]

Stop me if I'm wrong.

A party has two Wilders in it of at least 7th level. (Let's assume after 7 levels they PrC out.) Each of them spends one of their precious, few Powers Known on Bestow Power, which allows them to give another character 2 PP for every 3 PP they spend on manifesting it.

Both of them are low on PP for the day. So Wilder A manifests Bestow Power on his friend. He spends 3 PP manifesting it, plus another virtual 3 PP, courtesy of Wild Surge +3. Wilder B receives 4 PP for the cost of 3. Now he returns the favor, giving Wilder A 4 PP. Each of them now has 1 more PP than they had before the exchange.

Wash, rinse, and repeat. If Psychic Enervation strikes, they are Dazed for 6 seconds, which isn't important because this isn't taking place in combat. I guess Psychic Enervation also makes them lose 7 PP, though. It has a 15% chance of occuring. Someone run the math: on average, will they be gaining or losing PP in this exchange with Psychic Enervation factored in?

If gaining ... wow.

Of course, 2 Wilders with infinite PP per day (with a small risk of getting unlucky too) is only mildly scary, since Wilders tend to be an inflexible lot. But if their party members are also Psionic, and therefore can have Power Bestowed on them ... owch. (And for best effect, combine with Leadership cheese, and make the Wilders just be cohorts anyway!)

The math isn't complicated. .15*7 = 1.05 lost per attempt. With luck, it works...without it you are screwed.

[marjan]

If the Psychic Enervation strikes 15% of the time, they will lose 15% of the 7 pp which is on avg 1.05 pp every time they manifest it. On the other they get 0.85(chance to do it succesfuly)*4 = 3.4pp per manifestation. But for this they spent 0.85*3 = 2.55 pp per manifestation. So they use 2.55+1.05 = 3.6pp per manifestation and get 3.4pp so net gain is 3.4 - 3.6 = -02pp per manifestation.
And the final answer is that they lose pp on average, so you'll need to reduce chance of Psychic Enervation to get some pp.

Edit: Originaly (due to miscalculation) I wrote that you gain pp so I fixed it.

[Talic]

The math isn't complicated. .15*7 = 1.05 lost per attempt. With luck, it works...without it you are screwed.

Not quite. The 15% chance applies both ways. With each full exchange, there is a 25.5% fail chance for one surge out, and a 2.25% chance of both surging out. Assuming a total net gain of 2 (1 per Wilder) 72.25% of the time, there's a percentage-weighted gain of 1.445 pp on every success. The Loss results in a loss of 6 PP (gain 1 wilder, lose 7 the other) 25.5% of the time for a percentage-weighted loss of -1.53 pp. The double surge results in a loss of 14 pp (both wilders lose 7) 2.25% of the time, for a percentage-weighted loss of -.315 pp. Add together our percentage-weighted numbers above, and you get an average loss of 0.4 pp per use. Not bad, but still not a positive gain.

[Draz74]

Hmmm, OK. So my evil idea isn't broken, at least not out-of-the-box. Question now is, what ways are there to reduce the chance of Psychic Enervation or prevent the loss of PP?


The math isn't complicated.

No, it's really not. I was just feeling really lazy and figured someone else would do the easy problem for me. :smallwink: Well, that and I was thinking of doing it in a slightly more complicated way, which was just plain dumb.

[Cuddly]

Not quite. The 15% chance applies both ways.

No it doesn't.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Edit thought it worked with Chaotic Surge but it doesn't

[marjan]

It works at level 8+ with a Wilder - 5, AI - 3 or Wilder - 7, AI - 1 using the Chaotic Surge special.

Dumb question: What's AI and where is it from?

[CASTLEMIKE]

Edit Chaotic Surge doesn't work.

[BlackMage2549]

Isn't there a feat called "Endure Enervation" or somesuch that halves the PP loss to enervation? I believe it's in the Complete Psionic. Wouldn't that bring the Net Gain to just that?

[marjan]

Ok. Can you explain how that Chatic Surge thingy gets you pp via Bestow Power. Right now my brain fuctions at ~5% of it's capacity so I cannot figure it out on my own.:smallsmile:

[CASTLEMIKE]

Isn't there a feat called "Endure Enervation" or somesuch that halves the PP loss to enervation? I believe it's in the Complete Psionic. Wouldn't that bring the Net Gain to just that?

Yes there is good catch. Enervation Endurance page 53 Complete Psionic

[marjan]

Isn't there a feat called "Endure Enervation" or somesuch that halves the PP loss to enervation? I believe it's in the Complete Psionic. Wouldn't that bring the Net Gain to just that?

Yes that would work for 0.85*1 - 0.15*3 = 0.4pp per manifestation. Still slow but better than nothing.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Bummer Chaotic Suge doesn't work.

[NEO|Phyte]

Would a Torc of Power Preservation help? Saves you 1 PP per manifestation.

[Gralamin]

Would a Torc of Power Preservation help? Saves you 1 PP per manifestation.

Torc of Power Preservation and Bestow power on yourself is the original trick.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Would a Torc of Power Preservation help? Saves you 1 PP per manifestation.

Yes but in a suggested wealth by level game at 36,000 gp you would be looking at a level 14 PC unless someone has a crafting feat which would drop it down to level 11 or 12.

[Talic]

No it doesn't.


Yes. It does. Each time a wilder manifests to wild surge, there is a 15% chance. Since one cycle of this ability is TWO wilders each activating a wild surge ability, each of them has a 15% shot at failure. Hence, both parts of the exchange have the 15% chance, thus, it goes both ways.

Optimization isn't my strongest suit. RP isn't either. Nor is rules moderation.

Number crunching is. Statistics isn't a hard field, but it does suffer from oversimplification, by the people who don't fully understand it.

15% failure chance for each wilder.

Chance BOTH will fail is .15 * .15, or 2.25%.
Chance neither will fail is .85 * .85, or 72.25%
Chance one or more will fail is 1 - 72.25% (the chance of none failing), or 27.75%
Chance EXACTLY one will fail is 27.75%(the chance of one or two failing) - 2.25% (the chance of two failing), or 25.5%
Total Chance equals 100% (72.25% + 25.5% + 2.25% = 100%)


Given this, it's fairly easy to determine on any given round, that the average loss is 0.4, by multiplying the percentage chance of each occurrence by the pp gain or loss of that occurrance. Adding all of these together will get the net median gain or loss.

EDIT: With Endure Enervation feat on both wilders, halving your losses.
1 failure: Net loss 3 pp (-4pp for one wilder, +1pp on the other) * 25.5% = -0.765pp, weighted for percentages.
2 failures: Net loss 8 pp (-4 pp for each) *2.25% = -0.18pp
0 failures: Net gain 2 pp (+1 pp for each) *72.25% = +1.445pp

1.445-0.51-0.18=a net gain of 0.5 pp per cycle.

[marjan]

It has 4 effects with an equal chance (25% of each). Either nothing happens +0% to the effect , -50% to the effect, +50% to the effect or double effect.

So spending 3 PP + 3 Freebie WS PP you normally transfer +4 PP, Chaotic Surge changes that to one of four results: +4 PP, +2 PP*, +6PP or +8PP transferred.

*Without a Psychic Enervation there is only one transfer in four that transfer less PP (only a single PP) than the 3PP actually donated because of the Freebie WS PP.

Figure 4 transfers at +12 PP + 12 WS PP = 24 PP (which would normally transfer +16PP to another psion) but because of Chaotic Surge it gets bumped up to +20 PP on the average (Additional +8 PP more than actually deducted from the donating Wilder (15% of the time 1 transfer in 7 there will be an extra +3PP cost to the transfer due to Psychic Enervation but each 8 tranfers each Wilder should Net +16 PP minus Psychic Enervation costs (generally around 3PP with a 15% chance of occurence).


Chaotic Surge states that it changes numeric variables of power. 4pp isn't a variable (variables are expressed in dice if I'm not mistaken). Why do you think it would work?

[CASTLEMIKE]

Chaotic Surge states that it changes numeric variables of power. 4pp isn't a variable (variables are expressed in dice if I'm not mistaken). Why do you think it would work?

Bummer great catch my mistake got to used to using WS+1 with Chaotic Surge.

Taking the feat Enervation Endurance probably the way to go at lower levels and using in conjunction with the Torc at higher levels.

[Talic]

Bummer great catch my mistake got to used to using WS+1 with Chaotic Surge.

Taking the feat Enervation Endurance probably the way to go at lower levels and using in conjunction with the Torc at higher levels.

Exact wording of Torc so I can factor the odds in?

[tyckspoon]

The wearer of a torc of power preservation manifests all powers by paying power points equal to the standard cost minus 1 (minimum of 1).

(SRD, Psionic Items.)

[Talic]

(SRD, Psionic Items.)

Can't access SRD from present location, that's why I asked.

This does mean the following:

Both Fail: 2.25%
Neither Fail: 72.25%
At least one fails: 27.75%
Exactly one fails: 25.5%

Gain for a success, per wilder: 1, 2 with torc.
Loss for a failure, per Wilder: 7, 6 with torc without Endure feat. 4, 3 with Endure Feat.

Assuming 2 wilders with identical feats and items:

Without any boosts: -0.4pp median per cycle.
With Endure Feat: +0.5pp median per cycle.
With torc: +1.6pp median per cycle.
With both: +2.5pp median per cycle.

[Cuddly]

Yes. It does. Each time a wilder manifests to wild surge, there is a 15% chance. Since one cycle of this ability is TWO wilders each activating a wild surge ability, each of them has a 15% shot at failure. Hence, both parts of the exchange have the 15% chance, thus, it goes both ways.

Optimization isn't my strongest suit. RP isn't either. Nor is rules moderation.

Number crunching is. Statistics isn't a hard field, but it does suffer from oversimplification, by the people who don't fully understand it.

15% failure chance for each wilder.

Chance BOTH will fail is .15 * .15, or 2.25%.
Chance neither will fail is .85 * .85, or 72.25%
Chance one or more will fail is 1 - 72.25% (the chance of none failing), or 27.75%
Chance EXACTLY one will fail is 27.75%(the chance of one or two failing) - 2.25% (the chance of two failing), or 25.5%
Total Chance equals 100% (72.25% + 25.5% + 2.25% = 100%)


Given this, it's fairly easy to determine on any given round, that the average loss is 0.4, by multiplying the percentage chance of each occurrence by the pp gain or loss of that occurrance. Adding all of these together will get the net median gain or loss.

EDIT: With Endure Enervation feat on both wilders, halving your losses.
1 failure: Net loss 3 pp (-4pp for one wilder, +1pp on the other) * 25.5% = -0.51pp, weighted for percentages.
2 failures: Net loss 8 pp (-4 pp for each) *2.25% = -0.18pp
0 failures: Net gain 2 pp (+1 pp for each) *72.25% = +1.445pp

1.445-0.51-0.18=a net gain of 0.755 pp per cycle.

I'm not sure why you're counting in twice; the ability only needs to be manifested by one wilder. Once that wilder is empty on pp, the other wilder turns around and feeds it back. So each time one wilder gives the other wilder pp, there's a 15% chance of failure.

At any given time, only 15% of the pp are lost.

Or am I missing something.

[Talic]

I'm not sure why you're counting in twice; the ability only needs to be manifested by one wilder. Once that wilder is empty on pp, the other wilder turns around and feeds it back. So each time one wilder gives the other wilder pp, there's a 15% chance of failure.

At any given time, only 15% of the pp are lost.

Or am I missing something.

I'm factoring if both wilders are low, as in the original explanation, a cycle that allows them to slowly build each other back up.

[Cuddly]

I'm factoring if both wilders are low, as in the original explanation, a cycle that allows them to slowly build each other back up.

Even then, it's just a series of iterations, isn't it, such that at any one time, there's a 15% chance the pp are lost, so a net loss of 15% of the pp?

That is to say, both failing doesn't really matter, since spontaneity isn't involved with this trick.

They COULD activate the power at the exact same time, but that seems like you're tacking on 2.25% more failure for... what, exactly?

[Talic]

Even then, it's just a series of iterations, isn't it, such that at any one time, there's a 15% chance the pp are lost, so a net loss of 15% of the pp?

Because the goal is to fill BOTH wilders up. But, to do it the other way, you still have to weight it by the amount lost and gained.

SUCCESS:
Without Torc: Gain 1.
With Torc: Gain 2.

FAILURE:
Without boost: lose 7.
With Torc: Lose 6.
With Endure: Lose 4.
With Both: Lose 3.

So, let's weight the percentages by the consequences for the failures and successes.

Success:
Without Torc: 85% chance of success * gain of 1 = +.85pp
With Torc: 85% chance of success * gain of 2 = +1.7pp

Failure:
Without boosts: 15% chance * loss of 7 = -1.05pp
With Torc: 15% chance * loss of 6 = -0.9pp
With Endure: 15% chance * loss of 4 = -0.6pp
With Both: 15% chance * loss of 3 = -0.45pp

Averages per activation:
Without boosts: 0.85-1.05 = -.2pp per individual use
With Torc: 1.7-0.9= +0.8pp per individual use
With Endure: 0.85-0.6= +0.15pp per individual use.
With both: 1.7-0.45= +1.25pp per individual use.

Now, I don't like these numbers because they're misleading. The pp gain isn't actually being enjoyed by all parties. One PC is losing pp, the other is gaining more. It's an efficient transfer, with boosts, but it only represents one way exchange. The other numbers reflect overall gain chances for both wilders, factored together. While one wilder can transfer a few PP's to another with 0pp to kick start the process, the overall goal is to fill up both wilders, so you have to factor them together. Seperating them and factoring each seperately, as in a vaccuum, fails to account for the fact that BOTH are needed to make it work. Theoretically, a normal psion could work with a wilder with both a torc and the Endure feat to gain slowly (at a rate of 0.25pp median per transfer cycle), but that's the only advantageous 1 wilder method.

Incidentally, I'm not "tacking on" any additional failure. I'm reflecting the truth that to fill up, BOTH need to succeed the transfter. That's a 72.25% chance, not an 85% chance. One failing and one succeeding is a 25.5% chance, and both failing is a 2.25% chance. The total is 100%. There's no extra chances. It's merely using derived data to account for both wilders, rather than the raw data.

[marjan]

Talic, since Endure Enervation says you lose half your lvl of pp, that means you round down, not up, so with it you lose 3pp if one is not successful.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Talic, since Endure Enervation says you lose half your lvl of pp, that means you round down, not up, so with it you lose 3pp if one is not successful.

I could be mistaken but doesn't the rounding down really refer to the halving the Wild Surge, otherwise there are plenty of time where it would cost more than the Wild Surge and no reason to take the feat to make it cost more it is supposed to halving the costs.

[marjan]

I could be mistaken but doesn't the rounding down really refer to the halving the Wild Surge, otherwise there are plenty of time where it would cost more than the Wild Surge and no reason to take the feat to make it cost more it is supposed to halving the costs.

It says that you pay half your ML in pp instead your ML in pp. And it doesn't state round up so I think that usual rule of rounding down applies.

[Alleine]

If you want to save even more PP on this, two feats from RoS allow it, which stack with the torc of power preservation. First feat is Earth Sense, of the the prerequisites for Earth Power which lets you pay one less PP for your powers if you are in contact with the earth or stone and psionically focused.

[fendrin]

I think I can contribute best with a "real-time" analysis. I think it would be useful to help people understand where Talic's process is coming from (in particular the double Wild Surge).

Both wilders are level 7 wilders, with 10 pp remaining (10 was picked as a simple starting point). Neither have the feat or the torc.

No Enervation
Wilder 1's initiative:
Wilder 1 Wild Surges (+3) and spends 3 pp to manifest Bestow Power (effective 6pp spent), bestowing Wilder 2 with 4 pp (W1: 7pp W2: 14pp)
Wilder 2's initiative:
Wilder 2 Wild Surges (+3) and spends 3 pp to manifest Bestow Power (effective 6pp spent), bestowing Wilder 1 with 4 pp (W1: 11pp W2: 11pp)
delta pp: (11+11)pp - (10+10)pp = 2pp

Wilder One Enervates
Wilder 1's initiative:
Wilder 1 Wild Surges (+3) and Enervates, losing 7pp (W1: 3pp W2: 10pp)
Wilder 2's initiative:
Wilder 2 Wild Surges (+3) and spends 3 pp to manifest Bestow Power (effective 6pp spent), bestowing Wilder 1 with 4 pp (W1: 7pp W2: 7pp)
delta pp: (7+7)pp - (10+10)pp = -6pp

Wilder Two Enervates
Wilder 1's initiative:
Wilder 1 Wild Surges (+3) and spends 3 pp to manifest Bestow Power (effective 6pp spent), bestowing Wilder 2 with 4 pp (W1: 7pp W2: 14pp)
Wilder 2's initiative:
Wilder 2 Wild Surges (+3) and Enervates, losing 7pp (W1: 7pp W2: 7pp)
delta pp: (7+7)pp - (10+10)pp = -6pp

Both Wilders Enervate
Wilder 1's initiative:
Wilder 1 Wild Surges (+3) and Enervates, losing 7pp (W1: 3pp W2: 10pp)
Wilder 2's initiative:
Wilder 2 Wild Surges (+3) and Enervates, losing 7pp (W1: 3pp W2: 3pp)
delta pp: (3+3)pp - (10+10)pp = -14pp

As you can see, if only one wilder fails, it does not matter which it is, the end result is the same. For ease of calculation they are combined for the rest of the post.

Using Talic's well explained percentages:
{table="head"]|%|delta pp|weighted delta pp
No Enervation|72.25|2pp|1.445pp
One Enervates|25.5|-6pp|-1.53pp
Both Enervate|2.25|-14pp|-0.315pp
sum|||-0.4pp[/table]

Given that I came out with the exact same result as Talic, I posit that the rest of his calculations are sound.

So what does this mean, in the end? How effective is this technique really?

Assuming that if either Wilder enervates, they both refrain from manifesting in the next round (if only one is dazed, the other waits for them to recover)

72.25% of the time one iteration takes 1 round (weighted time: .7225 rounds)
27.75% of the time one iteration takes 2 rounds (weighted time: .555 rounds)
for a weighted average of 1.2775 rounds per iteration.

Given that there are 10 rounds per minute, there are 7.8277886497064579256360078277886 or ~8 iterations in a minute.

Using talic's numbers...
{table="head"]| delta pp per iteration | net pp per 8 iterations (~1 minute)| net pp per 8 iterations per wilder
Without any boosts | -0.4 | -3.2 |-1.6
With Endure Feat | +0.5 | +4 | +2
With torc | +1.6 | +12.8| +6.4
With both | +2.5 | +20 | +10 [/table]

I'd call that effective for the investment of one feat and one power, though given that it is one of 11 powers gained, that's a bit harsh.

[Draz74]

Hmmm, with the Torc and the Earth Power feat, you could even pull this combo off without even using Wild Surge. Which means no chance of backlash making you lose PP ... and even means you could pull this off as a Psion rather than a Wilder. Owch!

I'm thinking the ultimate party might be a Psion, an healer-Ardent, a Rogue/Psion/Elocator, and a Psychic Warrior/Slayer. With Rings of Sustenance and the Bestow Power combo, they can go 20 hours a day without ever suffering ill effects. Those extra 6 hours a day of effectiveness add up when you're competing with other adventurers, you know.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Using the Educated Wilder variant with the Hidden Talent feat and the Mantled Wilder variant you end up with quite a few more powers (+5)compared to a standard Wilder with a few more open powers available to be chosen due to the mantle along with the mantle benefits. Here's the article at Wizard's:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a