Elan's Charisma [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

sihnfahl

2008-01-02, 05:10 PM

I'd argue it would be Alignment that's keeping them from ditching him – well that and Haley's personal relationship with him (and she's second in command). Roy tried it, remember? Then his conscious got in the way.
No, Roy's conscience got in the way when Elan was kidnapped and the rest of the party went after him. He, in all good conscience, couldn't let someone he saw as a childlike idiot be the prisoner of bandits.

However, what about those times they were in towns? Like when Roy tore up the contracts after the negotiations with Shojo? He could easily have let Elan go. No more contracts, Elan was in a safe town where people liked him, nothing really tying Elan to the party except Haley. Yes, Haley could have left - but did Roy care? "You're all free to join me or not, as you wish."

Nargrakhan

2008-01-02, 05:11 PM

There is also the angle that Elan has a high Charisma because he is annoying. He has an amazing force of personality in that he is so extraordinarily annoying.

An interesting point of view... however it then cheapens the point of having low Charisma. I mean low CHA would represent being ugly, being forgettable, and being annoying.

Let's take a real world example: Hitler.

There's a guy with massive CHA (for obvious reasons) - and arguably low WIS (racism, attacking russia in winter, his drug addiction, and obsession with mysticism).

I mean people hate him for what he did - but those same people grudgingly must admit he had "charm" for those who listened and believed. Elan (at least as I see it) makes most people want to throttle him... and his charm isn't all that great if his Banjo faith is any lasting indicator. :smallwink:

However, what about those times they were in towns? Like when Roy tore up the contracts after the negotiations with Shojo? He could easily have let Elan go. No more contracts, Elan was in a safe town where people liked him, nothing really tying Elan to the party except Haley. Yes, Haley could have left - but did Roy care? "You're all free to join me or not, as you wish."

I'll answer your question with a question: do you think Roy would have cared if Elan didn't tag along and stayed behind in that safe town?

I doubt it.

Veridian

2008-01-02, 05:25 PM

I consider high charisma to belong to a kind of person with a 'hey! look at me!' attitude and method of actions. Elan certainly fits that bill. So does Xykon - gets people's undivided attention by force of personality (for good or for bad). Sure it might not be the *good* kind of attention, but still :smallbiggrin:

Alfryd

2008-01-02, 05:34 PM

Let's take a real world example: Hitler.
<Summon Godwin VII>

Oh, Jesus, Zoroaster, Buddha and Mohammed, can someone please come up with an historical parallel that doesn't reference nazis? It's not like there was an especial shortage of power-crazed, paranoid, charismatic dictators in the 20th century. Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Papa Doc Duvalier, the list goes on. Beef up your repertoire, people!

Assassin

2008-01-02, 05:47 PM

Put it this way, how many people on this forum are fans of his?

I am a HUGE fan of Elan. If I was in a class-system RPG, I'd definately be a dashing swordsman. And also, I'm a new member, so I'm partly posting this to see what my avatar looks like.

EDIT: sweeet.

Nargrakhan

2008-01-02, 05:54 PM

Oh, Jesus, Zoroaster, Buddha and Mohammed, can someone please come up with an historical parallel that doesn't reference nazis? It's not like there was an especial shortage of power-crazed, paranoid, charismatic dictators in the 20th century. Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Papa Doc Duvalier, the list goes on. Beef up your repertoire, people!

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. And the fact that just mentioning him made this kind of response, speaks for it self.

Unless you wanted me to claim that Jesus, Zoroaster, Buddha and Mohammed had low WIS. :smalltongue:

Lastly some dictators are unknown to people or can be argued against (say Ferdinand Marcos)... but Hitler is a universal historic figure. I wanted someone who everyone knew, and didn't want to get into some argument about his "stats"

Assassin

2008-01-02, 05:58 PM

Bah, stats are no use to a man of his renoun. Try Ryan Secrest. Looks like someone needs more ranks in Skill(Not being a douchebag).

Kai Maera

2008-01-02, 06:04 PM

Elan's high charisma is often thwarted by his low intelligence. But intelligence has nothing to do with sexiness, as we have seen from the numerous women hitting on him, as most 'attractive' people become blubbering fools when confronted with beautiful women anyway.

I am also willing to argue that Buddha and Mohammed had low wisdom in certain fields of their life (living without income and war, respectively) but this does not spread to the whole of a person.

Yes, wisdom and common sense vary by subject, not just people.

Assassin

2008-01-02, 06:21 PM

yes, but most attractive people become blubbering idiots when confronted by beautiful women only if they theoretically have considerably low charisma scores.

*Templar*

2008-01-02, 08:05 PM

The bottom line here is that people are concluding Elan isn't likable because they don't like him personally.

Rutee

2008-01-02, 08:08 PM

The bottom line here is that people are concluding Elan isn't likable because they don't like him personally.

And because he irritates the majority of the cast on a regular basis?

I figure that the irritation is his unique brand of charm, personally, but that's my guess.

The Extinguisher

2008-01-02, 08:43 PM

If Elan wasn't likable, I think the party would have ditched him by now.
Sure he's annoying, but he's still a nice guy.

And yes, Charisma is force of personality, but it also can be looks. If you have 18 charisma, you can still be an attractive, ditzy blond who no one takes seriously.

Oh wait...

sihnfahl

2008-01-02, 10:02 PM

I'll answer your question with a question: do you think Roy would have cared if Elan didn't tag along and stayed behind in that safe town? I doubt it.
You argued that alignment was keeping Roy from ditching Elan. However, when Roy had the opportunity to ditch Elan safely, he did not. He let Elan choose. Elan chose to go with Roy, which was fine with Roy. If Roy didn't like Elan, he wouldn't have extended the offer or accepted Elan's choice to come along to fight Xykon. No matter how 'annoying' Elan can be, Roy still likes him.

monty

2008-01-02, 10:10 PM

You argued that alignment was keeping Roy from ditching Elan. However, when Roy had the opportunity to ditch Elan safely, he did not. He let Elan choose. Elan chose to go with Roy, which was fine with Roy. If Roy didn't like Elan, he wouldn't have extended the offer or accepted Elan's choice to come along to fight Xykon. No matter how 'annoying' Elan can be, Roy still likes him.

Yep, Roy likes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0425.html) him.

Deme

2008-01-03, 11:18 PM

The people who don't like Elan all have one thing in common: they've spent enough time around him to realise he's a blundering idiot. He's annoying to them because he gets in their way...I'd estimate maybe 8 times out of 10.

People who don't know that about him tend to like him quite a bit: heck, most often people who DO know that about him tend to like him anyway. ( http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0153.html )

As far as I can recall, within the comic itself, it actually is just Roy who is perpetually annoyed at Elan. and Hinjo, but that's mostly because Hinjo fills the basic role of Roy in the comedic dynamic there, and so we can say "generally serious-minded, logical LG people currently in charge of Elan" are, as a catagory, perpetually annoyed at Elan, but that's pretty much it.

EDIT: oh, and Miko. but Miko, back when she was....umm....escorting...the Order to AC fits the above catagory, though she makes for a poor example of someone being annoyed at Elan, since she was generally annoyed at everyone except maybe Durkon and sometimes Roy.

SomethingElse

2008-01-03, 11:25 PM

No one "hates" or "doesn't like" Elan - at least not any of the good guys. I think the idea that LG people who are "minding" him may find him annoying is spot on - but we need to remember than Roy loves Elan, like a brother.

In general, my guess is that Elan is someone who grows on people, tending to make a few loyal friends, and annoy pretty much anyone else. Including his enemies, which is quite useful. And, as we've seen many times, he's dead sexy ;)

Khanderas

2008-01-04, 09:53 AM

<Summon Godwin VII>

Oh, Jesus, Zoroaster, Buddha and Mohammed, can someone please come up with an historical parallel that doesn't reference nazis? It's not like there was an especial shortage of power-crazed, paranoid, charismatic dictators in the 20th century. Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Papa Doc Duvalier, the list goes on. Beef up your repertoire, people!
Actually Hitler is a perfect example. Jesus, Buddha and Mohammed are all religious icons and should not really be discussed on theese forums. Also we have no movies or other media (heck even pictures or descriptions from the same century they were alive). Zoro... who ?
Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Papa Doc... none of them manifests any decernable levels of what DnD call Charisma.

Say what you will bout Hitler, he problebly has his own cellblock in hell, but the man could convince. Hardly anyone who met him was left unimpressed. He managed to get himself democratically elected and then disbanded the congress of Germany and that feat makes it more impressive really. Not to mention the propaganda movies. So powerful it's scary.

MoelVermillion

2008-01-04, 10:08 AM

Elan has a low wis/int which makes him a blubbering idiot but if you search around the comic a bit you will find instances where he uses his charisma beyond just looking nice.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0505.html

Here Durkon and V are getting into a pretty hard core argument where all the blame comes out and nasty things are said. However Elan and his high charisma manages to stop them fighting and aplogize to each other.

Edit: Thanks Surfing HalfOrc, nearly made a complete ass of myself there.

Surfing HalfOrc

2008-01-04, 10:28 AM

Elan has a low wis/int which makes him a blubbering idiot but if you search around the comic a bit you will find instances where he uses his charisma beyond just looking nice.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0435.html

Here Durkon and V are getting into a pretty hard core argument where all the blame comes out and nasty things are said. However Elan and his high charisma manages to stop them fighting and aplogize to each other.

I think you linked to the wrong comic. Try this one: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0505.html :smallwink:

Tyrmatt

2008-01-04, 10:53 AM

Charisma doesn't have to be a case of excessive good looks or loud-in-your-face -ness. It's simply to do with the ability to interact with people. I know plenty people who get on with folks because of their looks or sheer force of personality, but the few are the ones who work in a system of controlling people by body language, carefully chosen words and advanced forward planning.
Two of my closest friends planned every social occasion they went to like generals going to battle, gauging reactions, planning dialogues and setting time frames. They both were (and still are) highly liked and one of them is now married because they used their more subtle charisma to influence and alter perceptions of themselves (and others) rather than grab the center of attention. I've watched them do some distinctly nasty things to people they weren't fond of in order to garner affections from girls who were with them that they had created a pathway for several weeks ago. It's like watching a Goldberg machine in motion at times. Incredibly fun when you see how all the parts gel together.
So, yes Elan is adorably naive, optimistic and probably a fairly good singer as well. He grabs the center stage by being deeply likeable as a nice guy with ruggedly handsome looks and a childlike innocence. But when you see someone who is friends with all and doesn't appear to be in any way phenomenally likeable to you, be afraid. Inside lurks a mind that it's better not to delve into.

Surfing HalfOrc

2008-01-04, 11:20 AM

Oh, a high Charisma politician or world leader, other than Herr Hitler, would be Bill Clinton.

Seriously. He was a very charming, very charismatic individual. Whether you believed him when he said he "never inhaled" or any of his other famous lines, he could charm your socks off.

Even Reagan didn't have Clinton's Charisma. :smallamused:

Bayar

2008-01-04, 11:21 AM

Elan's main disadvantage is that he is a Bard...and usually bards are...umm...useless and stupid (well, Elan is an exception...sometimes)

TroyXavier

2008-01-04, 01:10 PM

Nargrakhan

2008-01-04, 01:13 PM

I'd go with what Golden Age Mutants and Masterminds said about Hitler...he didn't really have a high charisma so much as high bluff and perform which allowed him to sway people. In private, a lot of people couldn't stand Hitler.

In that case you'd be saying that Hitler was high level guy. :smalltongue:

What would his classes be?

Failed Artist 1/Soldier 1/Politician 8/Madman 10? :smallwink:

And to be honest... any leader can be disliked in private. Even Churchill and Roosevelt had people who couldn't stand them.

Hitler was liked by people who wanted to like him and felt the same as he did. Hitler was disliked by people who felt the opposite, or who he screwed over.

Gitman00

2008-01-04, 01:57 PM

For the OP and others equating Charisma to likability, I'd point out that Xykon has a Charisma of 28 at the very least (check out Class and Level Geekery if you don't believe me). NO ONE likes him. Not even his allies.

Charisma, I think, would be best described as ability to influence people. That's why it modifies Intimidate and Bluff as well as Diplomacy and Disguise. I really can't think that being really good-looking would always help with those skills. The thing is, when Elan says something, you believe him. When he performs, you're impressed. He intimidated the bejesus out of a teenage goblin, played an ogre masterfully, and befriended the minion of his worst enemy (okay, maybe that one's not so impressive, considering the minion). He's obviously attractive enough to turn heads, but that's not all there is to it.

I imagine if he were real, I'd love hanging around him, but he'd annoy the hell out of me if he were my roommate.

EDIT:

Jesus, Buddha and Mohammed are all religious icons and should not really be discussed on theese forums. Also we have no movies or other media (heck even pictures or descriptions from the same century they were alive). Zoro... who ?

I'm pretty sure he wasn't citing them as examples. He was just venting his frustration by swearing in multiple languages religions.

The Extinguisher

2008-01-04, 03:42 PM

Why can't Charisma just be attractivenes in this case?

You know, as much as everyone saying that it isn't just looks, sometimes it is just looks.

Gitman00

2008-01-04, 04:34 PM

Why can't Charisma just be attractivenes in this case?

You know, as much as everyone saying that it isn't just looks, sometimes it is just looks.

Honestly, I think that's Elan's main schtick... or at least it was when the comic began. He's next to useless, but has one really good stat... Charisma. The knee-jerk assumption in DnD is that a high-Charisma character is physically attractive, and conversely, that a physically attractive person must have high Charisma. So, Rich parodied that with Elan's character, while simultaneously subverting the "dumb blonde" stereotype. Hence, Elan's Charisma really did just represent good looks, and you have Haley making comments about seeing what his Charisma looks like "under the hood". However, as the comic progresses and his character develops, he demonstrates Charisma-related abilities like the ones I mentioned, for which being pretty wouldn't help him.

Now that I think about it, it doesn't really make a lot of sense to get more spell slots for being pretty, either. :smallconfused:

maxon

2008-01-04, 05:50 PM

Elan's high charisma is often thwarted by his low intelligence. But intelligence has nothing to do with sexiness, as we have seen from the numerous women hitting on him, as most 'attractive' people become blubbering fools when confronted with beautiful women anyway.

Just checking here: "most 'attractive' people" - you mean "most 'attractive' men" don't you? I mean, I'm an 'attractive' woman and I don't become a blubbering fool in that situation. I'm just saying. :smalltongue:

In other news, I like Elan. I LOVE Elan. I think he's brim full of charisma.

Klose_the_Sith

2008-01-05, 07:29 AM

Now that I think about it, it doesn't really make a lot of sense to get more spell slots for being pretty, either. :smallconfused:

Welcome to a day in the life of a sorceror :smallamused:

Bavarian itP

2008-01-05, 08:07 AM

In that case you'd be saying that Hitler was high level guy. :smalltongue:

What would his classes be?

Failed Artist 1/Soldier 1/Politician 8/Madman 10? :smallwink:

More like Soldier 3 or 4. He was high-decorated, after all. Politician 8/Madman 10 is an accurate guess, but only if Madman levels stack with Politician levels for the purposes of being a demagogue. Perhaps you could add Political Observer 1 to the list - after WW1, he wrote reports about political parties for the Reichswehr. That's how he came in contact with his later party.

vegetalss4

2008-01-05, 08:13 AM

More like Soldier 3 or 4. He was high-decorated, after all. Politician 8/Madman 10 is an accurate guess, but only if Madman levels stack with Politician levels for the purposes of being a demagogue. Perhaps you could add Political Observer 1 to the list - after WW1, he wrote reports about political parties for the Reichswehr. That's how he came in contact with his later party.

actuly he would be more like level 4-5 like all other exetonal people in our world...

SomethingElse

2008-01-05, 12:34 PM

actuly he would be more like level 4-5 like all other exetonal people in our world...
And, according to what do we decide this? I have no trouble believing that if we were to convert famous, legendary real world people to D&D stats, that they would be quite high-level, especially if we see hit points as more abstract.

Haley_Starshine

2008-01-05, 01:13 PM

He is annoying for his low Intelligence status, and because his Charisma weights more on the physical appearance than the personality, RP-wise...

And that's why only the male characters find him annoying!

:P

factotum

2008-01-05, 03:21 PM

And, according to what do we decide this? I have no trouble believing that if we were to convert famous, legendary real world people to D&D stats, that they would be quite high-level, especially if we see hit points as more abstract.

It's nothing to do with hit points, it's to do with the way the skill system works in D&D. Just take one of the item creation skills, for example--it's possible to make absolutely legendary items, stuff that would be a one-off for a master craftsman, with only the number of skill points you'd get at around level 5. Therefore, if the most skilled craftsmen in the world are only around level 5, there's no reason to suppose that people whose abilities excel in other areas (in fighting, for example) are going to be any higher.

SomethingElse

2008-01-05, 03:39 PM

It's nothing to do with hit points, it's to do with the way the skill system works in D&D. Just take one of the item creation skills, for example--it's possible to make absolutely legendary items, stuff that would be a one-off for a master craftsman, with only the number of skill points you'd get at around level 5. Therefore, if the most skilled craftsmen in the world are only around level 5, there's no reason to suppose that people whose abilities excel in other areas (in fighting, for example) are going to be any higher.

I think the problem here is that D&D isn't exactly equivalent to the real world, because technology replaces magic in reality. I have no problem believing that technological legends of craftsmanship - i.e. jet fighters, supercomputers - might require much higher skill ranks, like those a master wizard would need to craft the equivalent dragon-riding harness or intelligent magic item.

TSED

2008-01-05, 04:29 PM

I saw a huge, incredibly well-done article on how no one in history has ever reached level 6+ in D&D terms.

Really, I'd say Hitler was a level 5 bureaucrat.

factotum

2008-01-06, 02:03 AM

I think the problem here is that D&D isn't exactly equivalent to the real world, because technology replaces magic in reality. I have no problem believing that technological legends of craftsmanship - i.e. jet fighters, supercomputers - might require much higher skill ranks, like those a master wizard would need to craft the equivalent dragon-riding harness or intelligent magic item.

A jet fighter or a supercomputer is not built, or even designed in most cases, by a single person. Modern technological achievements are generally split into smaller pieces that are easier to deal with, then assembled into the whole; as an example, the jet engine from your jet fighter is essentially a "black box" which is delivered from a factory somewhere and then built into the airframe, rather than being an intrinsic part of the fighter that has to be constructed entirely on-site.

You can thank the Industrial Revolution for that--the days when a single craftsman would sit down and build an item (whether it's a piece of furniture or a sword) from base materials all the way up to finished object pretty much died out when the factory system came into play. Therefore, I would say that a typical mediaeval (or D&D) craftsman is probably MORE skilled than any modern equivalent.

Xandro

2008-01-06, 11:31 AM

Actually Hitler is a perfect example.
Really, I think what people made out of Hitler is a perfect example but if you are talking about the historical person Adolf Hitler, he can still learn a lot from Che Guevara or Usama Bin Laden. At least theese two guys turned themselves into symbols.

Say what you will bout Hitler, he problebly has his own cellblock in hell, but the man could convince. Hardly anyone who met him was left unimpressed.

Oh come on! A lot of people were very unimpressed, at least before he took over power. In fact, they underestimated him. Paul von Hindenburg, the Reichs-president of Germany said concerning a potential chancellorship of Hitler in the middle of 1932 after the Nazis became the strongest party: "I won't appoint this Bohemian private to nothing but a Postmaster General."
(I hope my translation is appropriate. But Hindenburg who already had met Hitler was still unimpressed that this guys wasn't able of becoming more than a private in the four years of WWI.)

He managed to get himself democratically elected and then disbanded the congress of Germany and that feat makes it more impressive really.
That's definitely not true. Hitler wasn't democratically elected, his party the NSDAP never got more than 38 percent at a parliamentory election. One time in april 1932 he ran vor presidentship and lost (against Hindenburg :smallbiggrin: ). The only elections the Nazis won were highly manipulated.
In fact, when Hitler took over pover in january 1933 there weren't elections. A group of conspirators including Franz von Papen, a former Reichskanzler and a group of industrials who were sure that they were able to control Hitler (another case of sheer underestimation) convinced Hindenburg who were already very senile at this time, that the current Reichskanzler von Schleicher were going to betray Hindenburg, so Hindenburg had to appoint Hitler to Reichskanzler.
(Look here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machtergreifung) for more information.)

Not to mention the propaganda movies. So powerful it's scary.
Yeah, the propaganda movies of the Nazis were quite powerful, but this is more the work of Josph Goebbels (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Goebbels).

Sorry, please excuse my very bad English, I'm not a native speaker and this is a bit more difficult than friednly banter.

At least concerning Hitler's charisma:

Hitler was a powerful orator. He was also much better in using technical support for psychological effects than his contemporaries.

Hitler was a skilled politician, a least before he became megalomanic. He was good in agitation, intrigue and had a good intuition.

I think that justifies a good bluff check more than a high charisma.

Xandro

2008-01-06, 11:55 AM

Let's take a real world example: Hitler.

There's a guy with massive CHA (for obvious reasons) - and arguably low WIS (racism, attacking russia in winter, his drug addiction, and obsession with mysticism).

1. It's not clear, if Hitler was really a rascist. A few historians doubt it. His anti-semitism was a instrument of agitation (and it's no indicator for a low WIS because it worked), we don't really know if it was his personal belief. At least we know that during his youth, Hitler had a very good relation to the Jewish doctor of his mother. (sorry, no link)

2. Hitler attacked Russia in the winter? I'm not sure but from my point of view june 22 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Barbarossa) doesn't look like winter.

3. Drug addiction? What are you talking about? Hitler was non-smoker and had given up alcohol. Not to mention other drugs.

4. Obsession with mysticism? Are you talking about history or Indiana Jones? Sorry, but I can't find something concerning this in Wikipedia. At least, there were Nazis who were quite obsessed by this stuff...

Xandro

2008-01-06, 12:01 PM

In that case you'd be saying that Hitler was high level guy. :smalltongue:

What would his classes be?

Failed Artist 1/Soldier 1/Politician 8/Madman 10? :smallwink:

:smallbiggrin:

My guess is:

He had the ability to shift his levels in Statesman to Megalomaniac. He startet with Statesman 13, Megalomaniac 5 and ended 1945 in his bunker in Berlin with Statesman 0, Megalomaniac 18. What a pity that nobody of the Red Army gained XPs for him because he killed hisself ...:smalleek:

And of course he was Lawful Evil...

Haley_Starshine

2008-01-07, 11:49 AM

*tries to figure what's the connection between Elan and Hitler*

lol

Nargrakhan

2008-01-07, 12:56 PM

In private, a lot of people couldn't stand Hitler.

I find this statement to be highly amusing, because there were a lot of people who loved Hitler in private. Historic biographies point as such. So which is it: a lot of people like him? A lot of people don't like him? Can't be both now can it?

I assume people who didn't like him, are the ones who got screwed by him... and he screwed a lot of people, as history shows. However people who he treated right or as equals: loved him. Also Hitler's personality deteriorated as his drug problems got worst... no surprise there.

Also if you study Hitler's time in the Reserve Regiment, he was pretty well liked by his comrades in the unit... BEFORE he got into politics. So yea... I still argue natural CHA with lotsa skill points in the respective Skills mentioned.

1. It's not clear, if Hitler was really a rascist. A few historians doubt it.

This really isn't the place for an argument like that. Can get really complex. Long story short: MOST historians and psychologists believe that Hitler didn't like Jews for whatever reason. Since we can't mind probe Hitler, then the real answer will never be known: but his own writings and diaries are the best source. And using them, Hitler was racist.

2. Hitler attacked Russia in the winter? I'm not sure but from my point of view june 22 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Barbarossa) doesn't look like winter.

Sarcastic. Nice.

Yes he attacked in June. Battle of Moscow was in October. Five months, eh? Hitler expected to beat Russia in the Summer alone? And LATE summer at that.

Yea... that's brilliant. MASSIVE Russia... crushed in five months...

Oh... and let's not forget that General Eduard Wagner REPEATEDLY warned Hitler that they would get creamed and should pullout if things bogged down in the August/September time frame. Not to mention Rommel didn't like the idea of fighting against Russia, and knew they would do the winter stall.

3. Drug addiction? What are you talking about? Hitler was non-smoker and had given up alcohol. Not to mention other drugs.

You've never heard of Theodor Morell? Tisk, tisk. Look him up.

4. Obsession with mysticism? Are you talking about history or Indiana Jones? Sorry, but I can't find something concerning this in Wikipedia. At least, there were Nazis who were quite obsessed by this stuff...

History. Try reading some material from Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke. That will give you a good start.

Look. Wikipedia is nice and all: but don't use it as a primary source. Especially on Hitler, because it ain't the end-all-be-all on the guy. Such a complex man takes more than one article.

Crimson Avenger

2008-01-07, 03:02 PM

You've never heard of Theodor Morell? Tisk, tisk. Look him up.

History. Try reading some material from Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke. That will give you a good start.

Look. Wikipedia is nice and all: but don't use it as a primary source. Especially on Hitler, because it ain't the end-all-be-all on the guy. Such a complex man takes more than one article.

I have to agree with this. History supports a methamphetimine habit that was shocking, and a very good case that Hitler may have had a debilitating case of sypholis (sp).

As far as mysticism, Hitler had his own astrologers, among other things.

Xandro

2008-01-07, 04:02 PM

This really isn't the place for an argument like that. Can get really complex. Long story short: MOST historians and psychologists believe that Hitler didn't like Jews for whatever reason. Since we can't mind probe Hitler, then the real answer will never be known: but his own writings and diaries are the best source. And using them, Hitler was racist.
Diaries of Hitler. I heard it was a very big hoax.
Sorry, wikipedia again. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_Diaries)
It was one of the biggest scandals here in Germany in the last 50 years. What a pity I'm too young to remember...

But concerning Hitler's antisemitism - evan if I agree, that it is very probable that he was a real rascist not only for show, he used his rascism for agitation and that very successful.
In my opion that doesn't prove a low WIS, it proofs high WIS and an evil alignment.

Yes he attacked in June. Battle of Moscow was in October. Five months, eh? Hitler expected to beat Russia in the Summer alone? And LATE summer at that.

No he tried to take Moscow before the winter. He hoped that this would be the coup de grace for the Soviet Union. I don't find the exact date that Hitler expected but for a point the Wehrmacht should occupy before attacking Moscow, Hitler planned 21-22 weeks, that's more than five month. It was less than one of his generals Erich Marcks who planned 9 – 17 weeks.
It was not that unrealistic and if Hitler had taken Moscow and captured Stalin than ... no, that goes to far, that too virtual history.
At least, the Wehrmacht was very close to taking Moscow. Hitlers plan wasn't that bad. It just ... failed.

You've never heard of Theodor Morell? Tisk, tisk. Look him up.

Yeah I've already found him. Yes, I've never heard of him before. But he was a doctor and methamphetamine was considered harmless at this time, a medicament. So I think this drug consumption is no indicator for a low WIS at all.

Look. Wikipedia is nice and all: but don't use it as a primary source. Especially on Hitler, because it ain't the end-all-be-all on the guy. Such a complex man takes more than one article.
I agree. And that's why I'm presenting a different point of view. Apologies for my sarcasm, that wasn't good style, I admit that.

O.k., and now one information for everyone who asks hisself what Elan's charisma has to do with Hitler's charisma.

It's a absolut different type of charisma. It shows how much a high stat in CHAR can differ ...

WarriorTribble

2008-01-07, 04:08 PM

Now that I think about it, it doesn't really make a lot of sense to get more spell slots for being pretty, either. :smallconfused:The Dnd universe is no more if one can't sex up the fundamental forces of magic to gain power....

Nargrakhan

2008-01-07, 05:19 PM

Diaries of Hitler. I heard it was a very big hoax.

When I mean "diaries" I mean his journals and political thesis works. Shoulda been more exact there... because yea, there's the major hoax thing.

In my opion that doesn't prove a low WIS, it proofs high WIS and an evil alignment.

Isn't WIS supposed to represent "inner reflection" type stuff, and INT is the raw intellect? For example I might have encyclopedia knowledge (high INT), but lack actual worldly experience (low WIS).

Like say Jesus would have "average" INT (he was only a carpenter), but has high WIS (because all that spiritual stuff).

I don't find the exact date that Hitler expected but for a point the Wehrmacht should occupy before attacking Moscow, Hitler planned 21-22 weeks, that's more than five month.

Aye... but that's well into the infamous Russian Winter. Hitler was living a fantasy, because his own logistics general was practically begging him to not do it: there was no way Germany could do a Winter campaign in Russia at the time.

German fuel would freeze. :smallsigh:

So his worst case scenario should have included a Winter plan... but they obviously didn't. Not reflective at all. In the very least, he should have pulled out: all he had to do was look up Napoleon for a few lessons on what NOT to do. But he remained stubborn and dug-in.

But he was a doctor and methamphetamine was considered harmless at this time, a medicament. So I think this drug consumption is no indicator for a low WIS at all.

That guy was actually a quack, not a really doctor. And he got Hitler on more than methamphetamine. Problem is, the quack didn't keep good records of what he gave Hitler. Whatever made him "feel good" and whatnot.

Also you bring up something that I forgot to mention as a point of low WIS: Hitler was stubborn as hell. Most of his generals advised against going to war in Russia – he only listened to the ones who said it would be easy. Many of his advisers warned him about his quack doctor – he dismissed them. He was told that many "superweapons"(like the Landkreuzer P. 1000 Ratte) were a waste of resources, but he funded them anyways.

A wise man knows when to listen to council... especially when it's the MAJORITY of council. Just check out President Bush #2. ;)

Of course that's all good for us, because a "bad thinking" Hitler lost the war. A "good thinking" Hitler would have won. :smalleek:

I agree. And that's why I'm presenting a different point of view. Apologies for my sarcasm, that wasn't good style, I admit that.

Naw... I was getting a bit snippy there too. We all make mistakes... but at least our WIS is high enough to realize them. :smallwink:

Nerd-o-rama

2008-01-07, 05:43 PM

Well, disregarding the Godwin's Law-exempt posts that comprise most of this thread, let me throw in my two cents on Elan: he's very likeable. He bothers authority figures like Roy and Hinjo, but everyone else he works closely with has a genuine fondness for him.

As my main example, I cite this: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0153.html. Despite it being a moment of weakness for Roy for which he later repents, every other member of the team shows how Elan's charisma affects people when they get to know him:
"He's the heart and soul of the team"
"I would not discard my hard-earned friendship with him so carelessly"
"He makes me laugh"

Authority figures tend to dislike him, because he's just so far out there on the cuckoo scale, and in Roy's case, has latched onto him as a big brother surrogate. Everyone else, though, finds him endearing or attractive. Now, he uses his Charisma poorly, in speeches or bardsongs or puns, because he's a complete moron. That doesn't mean he doesn't have it.

Talya

2008-01-07, 07:17 PM

Elan's highly charismatic. He's just a moron. The lack of wisdom on its own can be highly annoying, but its not due to an unlikeable personality.

I'd stat him as:
Str 11, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 10*, Wis 6, Cha 18.

*-if you can speak clearly, you're at least a 10. 8s and 9s are reserved for half orcs not tok gud, k? thog like puppies.

Kish

2008-01-07, 07:58 PM

*-if you can speak clearly, you're at least a 10.
No. D&D=/=Neverwinter Nights.

Nargrakhan

2008-01-08, 09:34 AM

You guys are still talking about Elan? That's so last week. Hitler is in fashion now. :smalltongue:

SoD

2008-01-08, 10:57 AM

Maybe we should start an evil facist dictator itp thing? Hitler, Pol Pot, etc. Ja?

Irbis

2008-01-08, 06:11 PM

<Summon Godwin VII>

If that's VII...

What SG IX does? :smallconfused:

Kish

2008-01-08, 08:30 PM

If that's VII...

What SG IX does? :smallconfused:
...Actually make people stop talking about Hitler when cast? VII manifestly doesn't do that. :smallwink:

Yoritomo Himeko

2008-01-08, 10:07 PM

Well, personally, I find Elan funny and easygoing, two qualities I like in people. Maybe that's part of his Charisma. That's also why he's one of my favorite characters, along with Haley.

I think here, "charisma", means having a way with people. The kind people either love or hate, no indifference. And Elan certainly has that.

Nargrakhan

2008-01-09, 10:08 PM

...Actually make people stop talking about Hitler when cast? VII manifestly doesn't do that. :smallwink:

That because Godwin is overrated anyways.

Summon Hitler is a Deity level spell. Even your Epic level Summon Godwin is no match for that. :smalltongue:

Yahoo_Serious

2008-01-11, 03:11 PM

Perhaps a better example of Elan-like Cha would be Jon Bon Jovi:

Annoying? Check
Low Int? Check
Hordes of rabid female fans? Check
(Female fans often look like half-orcs? Check)

Ertier

2008-01-12, 11:56 AM

Kai Maera

2008-01-12, 03:52 PM

EverYakEyes

2008-01-12, 09:00 PM

Elan has avery high Cha. Despite being as annoyimg as hell, he draws attention. If he had a low Cha, people would just ignore him. A real world example of this being... say, Paris Hilton; highly attractive but annoying and stupid (relatively), but no one can just ignore her. Force of personality also plays a role.

As for Godwin's Law...
Protection from Thread Laws!

Hitler's Stats:
Str 10, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 20

Paris Hilton's attractiveness and fame are two qualities she doesn't actually seem to possess. I feel she is a poor example of charisma, because most people who are not enamored by her fame (Which seems to be procured by the media time that she buys be it with money or her antics) would punch her in the face if forced to talk to her. I know I would and I'm a fairly patient person.

I think a good measure of Elan's charisma is that people (with reasonable patience) don't simply leave him behind/punch him in the face/try outright to kill him.

I look on charisma as how well your positive qualities beat out your negative ones: The more negative qualities you possess while still being a generally well liked figure, would up your charisma. Of course Elan would be better liked without his annoying nature or foolery, but if he didn't have those... he'd be pretty unstoppable... To me anyway.

I'm probably not making myself clear enough, but this is just my view. ._.