Haley: On her way to Lawful Good?

[AyuVince]

Or at least Neutral Good? By creating a fairly effective resistance movement in just three months, Haley has shown organizational as well as leadership skills. And now she's unwilling to sacrifice one of her comrades because of a guilty conscience. That much responsibility doesn't appear chaotic to me. Do you think she'll move from CG to a more lawful alignment?

[Zordrath]

Interesting thought. But then she won't get the same afterlife as Elan, so that might prevent her :smallwink:

[Assassin]

yeah, but I think Elan is willing to go to the lawful side of things just for love.

[Raistlin1040]

Doubtful. Leadership skills and organization could be attributed to high Charisma, and I don't think many CG characters would sacrifice a comrade any more than a LG one would. Besides, she's leading Freedom Fighters, not a police force.

[Willahad]

Right now she is showing clasic chaotic good. She's working on a resistance to undermine the hobgoblins lawful system. In the PHB the definition on CG, is a rebel

[Assassin]

Who knows? People change.
Xykon, however, does not. (maybe cause he's not a person.)

[bluish_wolf]

If being a leader was lawful, they would be no bards in the world.

[Thrythlind]

Chaotic is not the same as poor organizational skills.

A chaotic person might be very organized. What they will not do is impose their organization on other people.

They will tend to suggest and lead by example. First among equals rather than a leader above the others.

[Hallavast]

I was under the impression that you could still follow your conscience and be Chaotic Good...

[brilliantlight]

Haley is almost the epitome of chaotic good.

[snoopy13a]

Remember that the Chaotic Good archtype is Robin Hood. Chaotic Good characters thrive in rebellions against evil governments.

[Uncle Festy]

Who knows? People change.
Xykon, however, does not. (maybe cause he's not a person.)

[semi-tounge-in-cheek]Blasphemy! Undead are people too![/semi-tounge-in-cheek]

[Carrion_Humanoid]

I Agree, Undead can change! Did you notice i was once a GHOoOoOST!

[monty]

Who knows? People change.
Xykon, however, does not. (maybe cause he's not a person.)

Sanctify! *poke*
1 year later...
:xykon: I feel...happy.

Who says being a person is a prerequisite for changing?

EDIT: Forget the poke. I just looked at my BoED on a whim right after posting, and it's not even a touch attack.

[blackspeeker]

No chance, if she were in a city trying to keep order rather than destabilize it with a resistance then I'd agree, but she is working at overthrowing the law right now, not bolstering it.

[sun_tzu]

Haley is almost the epitome of chaotic good.

Hm...No, I wouldn't say that. She's definitely chaotic, but the "epitome of Chaotic Good" wouldn't make a living robbing people (see: OtooPC). I would, however, say that she seems to be moving toward a more heroic role lately with this resistance movement, so she's more firmly on CG grounds (possibly NG, but I doubt it).

[factotum]

But, as has been pointed out in the arguments about Thanh being a freedom fighter despite being Lawful, a lot depends on whether the person in question considers the law legitimate. In this case it clearly isn't, because the law currently in force arose from an illegal occupation of the city by an enemy power.

However, I think Haley's motivations are deeper than that anyway. I don't think she's fighting the hobgoblins out of any desire to topple authority (a Chaotic desire); she's fighting them to (a) save any humans left in Azure City, and (b) help put a road-bump in Xykon's path to taking over the world. Therefore she is motivated mainly by her Good side, not her Chaotic side.

[MorkaisChosen]

She's not being particularly Lawful, either- she's given up one commitment (finding Roy's body) in order to do something she sees as more important. That looks pretty Chaotic to me.

[BisectedBrioche]

[semi-tounge-in-cheek]Blasphemy! Undead are people too![/semi-tounge-in-cheek]

Undead? I'm quite sure that you mean "differently alive" or "living impaired". Be more PC about NPCs.

[Revlid]

She's essentially a Robin Hood type character, and no-one claims he's Lawful.

[Demented]

And for that matter, it's a pretty disorganized resistance–I mean, Azure City Underground–wrong again, Sapphire Liberation Front–Gah, I've got it right this time, Rebel Alliance–No, maybe it really is The Resistance.

You'd think that by now a Lawful person would've gotten those little kinks all lawed-out.

[sun_tzu]

She's essentially a Robin Hood type character, and no-one claims he's Lawful.

You'd be surprised. I've seen it claimed in several places.

[Coffee_Dragon]

Let's talk about Batman and alignment for a while.


*runs*

[SteveMB]

She's not being particularly Lawful, either- she's given up one commitment (finding Roy's body) in order to do something she sees as more important. That looks pretty Chaotic to me.

Huh? She found Roy's body before the three-month gap. Presumably, she has it stashed somewhere so Belkar knows where he can go without triggering the MoJ.

[Kioran]

Maybe Haley´s finally working her way up to chaotic good instead of CN - hoenstly, constantly robbing/tricking people out of money, even your own party members is, while not necessarily evil, non-good enough to place one firmly in Neutral territory.
Also, Haley did not care too much about people she didn´t have friendly or carnal relations with - rueing the fate of O-Chul is one of the first signs of above-average conscience and compassion.

Honestly, I didn´t even seriously think about her being CG until now - for good reasons. And yes, that means I believe Miko to be more firmly good than her.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Haley's about as likely to become LG as my Rogue 4 Fighter 2 Assassin 1. Seriously.

[Crimson Avenger]

I'll even go so far as to say that LG people are more willing to sacrafice someone than a CG person is. Sacrafice in the name of the greater good. Don't just dismiss the idea out of hand, think about it long and hard.

Chaotic is the lack of want to impose your beliefs on someone else.

They will tend to suggest and lead by example. First among equals rather than a leader above the others. Yeah, Ilike the phrasing on that. Of course that's also how the paladin in the party is supposed to win converts from among friends.

[SomethingElse]

I think the problem here is that we're using L>C thinking here. The way I see it, a lawful good person is exactly as good as a chaotic one. Not more. Which means that loyalty to companions, et cetera is just as common among the chaotic as the lawful - at least on the good end of things, since you could make the argument that loyalty can be either a lawful OR a good trait.

And as for skills, it's skills. Just like a CE character can learn healing, a chaotic character can be a leader.

[Mando Knight]

Let's talk about Batman and alignment for a while.


*runs*

Heh heh... everyone knows that Bats's alignment is Scary Good.


*Dashes off following Coffee Dragon*

[Porthos]

*reads thread title*

*reads OP*

*cries a little to himself*

Look the notion that by being an effective leader and by going out of her way to save a friend, Haley is becoming LG is almost as bad as the idea that a Paladin that becomes a resistance fighter Falls. Almost. :smallwink:

Lawfulness and Chaotic-ness have NOTHING to do with Goodness. Or leadership for that matter. Being LG is not "better" than CG. And a CG commander can be just as inspiring and effective a leader as a LG one. They'll just have different styles, that's all.

And, yes, a Chaotic character can unwilling to let the same mistake repeat itself. The fact that Haley is determined not to let the repeat of the O'Chul incident occur proves that she is Good. It says nothing about her Law/Chaos ideals.

Nothing at all. :smallsmile:

[sun_tzu]

Maybe Haley´s finally working her way up to chaotic good instead of CN - hoenstly, constantly robbing/tricking people out of money, even your own party members is, while not necessarily evil, non-good enough to place one firmly in Neutral territory.
Also, Haley did not care too much about people she didn´t have friendly or carnal relations with - rueing the fate of O-Chul is one of the first signs of above-average conscience and compassion.

Honestly, I didn´t even seriously think about her being CG until now - for good reasons. And yes, that means I believe Miko to be more firmly good than her.

I used to think that, but then I remembered the dirt farmers - one instance of Haley going out of her way to help people for free.
So, not entirely sure about her alignment (and there's some indication she might not be sure herself. "I'm good! -ish!").

[Porthos]

I used to think that, but then I remembered the dirt farmers - one instance of Haley going out of her way to help people for free.
So, not entirely sure about her alignment (and there's some indication she might not be sure herself. "I'm good! -ish!").

The thing is, I think that Haley's alignment has changed over the course of the strips, in no small part to the influence of her friends. :smallsmile: So I don't really think it is fair to point at her actions hundreds of strips ago when she is acting radically different now.

To put it a slightly more exact way, I think she was on the border between CN and CG when On the Origins of PCs started. And, over time, she has gotten more and more CG, until now she is flatly in the CG camp. The whole "Chaotic Good ...ish" was her self-doubt/self-loathing speaking. And, don't forget, she was absolutely convinced that people left her because she wasn't "good enough" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0311.html). That's got to play hell with one's psyche, and indeed shows that her self-doubt and self-loathing was a deep seeded issue long before Elan ever showed up.

But now that she has broken through her little mental traps, she in fact sees that people can and do love her. She sees that people can indeed be good friends and role models. This gives her enough mental confidence to not be afraid and, in fact, be good. Which reinforces her self image, which gives her more mental confidence, et etc.

Call it the Upward Spiral if you will. :smalltongue:

The fact that she has taken upon herself to lead the Resistance for Azure City just goes to show how much her mental confidence (and her goodness) has grown.

Elan (and Roy and Durkon) would be very proud of her. :smallsmile:

[Kyaragwo-kye]

I think that the difference between lawful and chaotic is more a matter of means, rather then ends (the ends are what good and evil are). So to see if Haley is acting more lawful we would have to see how she has structured the AC resistance. So far all we see is that the members defer to her as the most experienced member during a mission, which I don't think means much.

Also, I would expect a chaotic leader would tend to lead by example, and allow the resistance members a great deal of latitude in their behaviour. But since the resistance is made up of people who were living in a city filled with paladins (and probally have a fair number of lawful good types anyway) the resistance may be lawfully structured in spite of Haley's own chaotic tendencies. She gives them the freedom to structure or not the resistance as they want, and their own lawful tendencies cause the resistance to become structured.

So I don't know if we can really conclude anything about Haley's lawful tendencies.

Now, Batman is neutral good :smallbiggrin:

[Droodle]

Now, Batman is neutral goodNaturally. Vigilantes working outside the law are never chaotic, are they?

[monty]

Naturally. Vigilantes working outside the law are never chaotic, are they?

I think that was a joke. And I'd really like to not see a Batman's alignment debate on these forums...

[brilliantlight]

Maybe Haley´s finally working her way up to chaotic good instead of CN - hoenstly, constantly robbing/tricking people out of money, even your own party members is, while not necessarily evil, non-good enough to place one firmly in Neutral territory.
Also, Haley did not care too much about people she didn´t have friendly or carnal relations with - rueing the fate of O-Chul is one of the first signs of above-average conscience and compassion.

Honestly, I didn´t even seriously think about her being CG until now - for good reasons. And yes, that means I believe Miko to be more firmly good than her.

It's been more then three months since she tricked her own party members out of their cash. I think in the three months she has moved to a solid CG.

[brilliantlight]

The thing is, I think that Haley's alignment has changed over the course of the strips, in no small part to the influence of her friends. :smallsmile: So I don't really think it is fair to point at her actions hundreds of strips ago when she is acting radically different now.

To put it a slightly more exact way, I think she was on the border between CN and CG when On the Origins of PCs started. And, over time, she has gotten more and more CG, until now she is flatly in the CG camp. The whole "Chaotic Good ...ish" was her self-doubt/self-loathing speaking. And, don't forget, she was absolutely convinced that people left her because she wasn't "good enough" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0311.html). That's got to play hell with one's psyche, and indeed shows that her self-doubt and self-loathing was a deep seeded issue long before Elan ever showed up.

But now that she has broken through her little mental traps, she in fact sees that people can and do love her. She sees that people can indeed be good friends and role models. This gives her enough mental confidence to not be afraid and, in fact, be good. Which reinforces her self image, which gives her more mental confidence, et etc.

Call it the Upward Spiral if you will. :smalltongue:

The fact that she has taken upon herself to lead the Resistance for Azure City just goes to show how much her mental confidence (and her goodness) has grown.

Elan (and Roy and Durkon) would be very proud of her. :smallsmile:


Seriously, she didn't think she was good enough for ELAN. Any tramp off the street is good enough for that twit!

[Haley_Starshine]

Being lawful has more to do with following the rules in a blind kind of way, like Miko Miyazaki... Germans during National-Socialist Government.... USA during Bush government... Terrorists under brainwashing... Etc... Or just enforcing the rules to maintain the estabilished order... Like a policeman :)

Her ability to lead has only to do with her high charisma... Besides, she is the highest level character in the resistance :)

[Spiky]

When will you people learn to stop mixing up D&D conventions with real life??

(that last post is just frightening)

[Haley_Starshine]

When will you people learn to stop mixing up D&D conventions with real life??

(that last post is just frightening)

Frightening is my middle name :smallfurious: :smalltongue:

[factotum]

Being lawful has more to do with following the rules in a blind kind of way, like Miko Miyazaki...

No it doesn't. Just being Lawful does not turn you into some sort of robot who is incapable of questioning higher authority (unless you're a Modron, which I don't think Haley is... :smallsmile: ).

[SomethingElse]

When will you people learn to stop mixing up D&D conventions with real life??

(that last post is just frightening)

It's a pretty common practice among us D&D geeks to debate various questions regarding alignment as applied to non-D&D things, i.e. Star Wars and real-life. I don't agree that all lawfulness is equivalent to the evil things that Haley_Starshine lists, but I do think that law means that a character acts because of rules instead of personal views.

[TSED]

The reason Robin Hood gets argued as LG on occasion is because he is, in fact, the rightful king and he is opposing a corrupt government that is ruling illegally. I can see why THAT Robin Hood is LG, but the popular notion of RH is "a guy who lives in a forest and steals from the rich to give to the poor", which isn't the same.


And yeah, Haley's just becoming gooder. Not unchaotic.

[Roderick_BR]

She's leading a rebel force, against a established group. Therefore, she's getting chaotic-er :smallbiggrin:
Lawful != Unable to disobey orders, always obey law, do everything on a schedule
Chaotic != Unable to put a group together and make plans in advance.

PS: For non-computer geeks "!=" means "doesn't equal to"

[Lolzords]

Maybe Haley´s finally working her way up to chaotic good instead of CN - hoenstly, constantly robbing/tricking people out of money, even your own party members is, while not necessarily evil, non-good enough to place one firmly in Neutral territory.
Also, Haley did not care too much about people she didn´t have friendly or carnal relations with - rueing the fate of O-Chul is one of the first signs of above-average conscience and compassion.

Honestly, I didn´t even seriously think about her being CG until now - for good reasons. And yes, that means I believe Miko to be more firmly good than her.

I agree, she even says somewhere "I'm Chaotic Good-ish".

While she is collecting the money for a noble cause (rescuing her papa) I still think that originally, she was CN. Some might argue that "that's the only way she knows how to raise the money" but now we know that's not true, as she's shown leadership skills on a few occasions therefore if she wanted she could get an honest job. But she didn't, because she likes the stealing.

Therefore, I reckon she was CN and is now CG.

[Firestar27]

Chaotic is not the same as poor organizational skills.

A chaotic person might be very organized. What they will not do is impose their organization on other people.

They will tend to suggest and lead by example. First among equals rather than a leader above the others.

No. A chaotic character's organization won't be very structured. It will be constantly changing and rearranging itself, and it will be in unusual patterns of hierarchy. A lawful character's organization will be very structured and set, with the same pattern of hierarchy.
Ex: Chaos vs. Law - 1=3=5=6=2 vs. 1=2=4=8=16

[Gundato]

No. A chaotic character's organization won't be very structured. It will be constantly changing and rearranging itself, and it will be in unusual patterns of hierarchy. A lawful character's organization will be very structured and set, with the same pattern of hierarchy.
Ex: Chaos vs. Law - 1=3=5=6=2 vs. 1=2=4=8=16

So how do thieves guilds, priesthoods for Chaotic gods, and Big Bads work? That Barbarian horde all checked the CN box, but they seem to have a pretty well-defined pecking order.

Please learn what the alignments mean, not what the words used to represent the alignments mean.

[Admiral Squish]

I see some people arguing Haley as neutral for hoarding gold. However, I would like to direct your attentions to the following, often-overlooked strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0131.html). As you can see, she has a very good reason for her actions, even if they are a tad... extreme at times.

[Spiky]

The reason Robin Hood gets argued as LG on occasion is because he is, in fact, the rightful king and he is opposing a corrupt government that is ruling illegally. I can see why THAT Robin Hood is LG, but the popular notion of RH is "a guy who lives in a forest and steals from the rich to give to the poor", which isn't the same.


And yeah, Haley's just becoming gooder. Not unchaotic.

You mean he is supporting the rightful, absent king. He is not himself king, or even royalty.

[Flying Platypus]

My opinion is that your alignment has nothing to do with your leadership ability. Hence the CE warlords. My interpretation of chaotic is closer to random than unorganised. Such as on a poster in one of my teachers rooms; I am not unorganised, I'm flexable! (Translated roughly from german to english) This may be totaly inacurate because I'm not a hardcore D&D player but it's my reading.

[factotum]

I think alignment WILL change the way you lead, though. For example, in a group consisting mainly of Chaotic Evil beings, one might expect the one who is simply the toughest to lead, because he can beat up the others if they argue with him! That might be more from the Evil side than the Chaotic one, though, considering Redcloak got leadership of the Lawful Evil hobgoblins using pretty much the same approach.

[Kish]

I think alignment WILL change the way you lead, though. For example, in a group consisting mainly of Chaotic Evil beings, one might expect the one who is simply the toughest to lead, because he can beat up the others if they argue with him! That might be more from the Evil side than the Chaotic one, though, considering Redcloak got leadership of the Lawful Evil hobgoblins using pretty much the same approach.
On the other hand, Redcloak won the absolute, unquestioning, will-die-for-you loyalty of the hobgoblins that way, while with a more Chaotic group, he would have won their loyalty for exactly as long as he was watching them closely.

[Tirian]

I think that was a joke. And I'd really like to not see a Batman's alignment debate on these forums...

There's no need, WotC has declared that Batman is LN. Yeah, really.

Apparently, the rules of alignment change dramatically from one ruleset to the next. In version 1, Robin Hood is the archetype of Chaotic Good because he is opposed to an oppressive regime. Evidently, in later versions, you would say that as a disciplined, effective leader, he must be lawful. Which strikes me as really lame, because then you're either lawful or you're comic relief or a goof-up. Mostly, alignment debates are stupid because alignment itself is stupid.

I don't know what to say about Haley. She does seem to have created a pretty centralized organization, and she doesn't allow much sass from even mid-range underlings (which I presume Thanh is). I don't think that makes her less Chaotic Good, just that she is the sort of person who will do Lawful things when the situation demands it (just as we've seen her do some mildly evil things when she thought the situation demanded it).

[EntilZha]

I don't think so. Rebellion, resistance,and insurrection, are chaotic acts, which fits in with Haley's alignment. If they're successful in kicking out Xykon and his cronies, Haley doesn't have to participate in the reformation of the Azure City government, and would probably be loath to do so.

[monty]

I honestly can't see how rebellion is chaotic when you're trying to replace one lawful society with another. Especially when the one you're trying to put in was already there before.

[Kioran]

I don't think so. Rebellion, resistance,and insurrection, are chaotic acts, which fits in with Haley's alignment. If they're successful in kicking out Xykon and his cronies, Haley doesn't have to participate in the reformation of the Azure City government, and would probably be loath to do so.

Incorrect. In fact, Insurrection can be very lawful if declared and waged mostly in the open. Just the other way round. If you follow any code of conduct or specified treaty in your warfare, it´s mostly lawful, regardless on which side you´re on.

Terrorists, guerilla armies and such are chaotic. They do not declare their intent, follow few rules and work throguh subterfuge. But so is invading a country with a force the strength of several division, bombing the **** out of it and breaking several rules of war, calling the entire shebang a police action. Both are in fact, highly chaotic.

Declaring your intent to fight the invaders and picking up arms, as well as some sort of badge or uniform, and then fighting them, might very well be lawful. Despite having to fight the current authorities for whatever ends you aspire to, you have done your share to make it formal and correct. Even when you kill occupying soldiers on patrol.

So it´s the kind of resistance you lead, not resistance in general, which is lawful or chaotic. I can see the AC-resistance being more of the chaotic tyype, though.......

[MorkaisChosen]

I do think that law means that a character acts because of rules instead of personal views.

Not necessarily. It could be a personal code they follow- "Kill the 27th person who walks past you in the street, then take their body out in your boat, pull out the 2 front teeth and drop them in the exact spot where you drop all your other victims" would be Lawful. Raving nutcase, but still Lawful.

[Alex Warlorn]

Haley was originally Neutral Chaotic with Good tendencies, or True Neutral with Chaotic Good tendencies.

Being forced to actually BE leader, rather than just riding the gravy train, like she had been doing as second in command before, likely HAS effected her alingment.

Like Belkar is being dragged kicking and screaming away from his beloved Chaotic Evil until he can get the stupid mark of justice off and go on a killing spree to restablish his evilness!

[Superglucose]

Being forced to actually BE leader, rather than just riding the gravy train, like she had been doing as second in command before, likely HAS effected her alingment.

Like Belkar is being dragged kicking and screaming away from his beloved Chaotic Evil until he can get the stupid mark of justice off and go on a killing spree to restablish his evilness!

Except... Belkar is still CE as far as we know.

And as for chaotic people not being organized, or being random, that is patently untrue. The difference between the good alignments as I see them:

Person A kills person B because person B was hurting person C.

Lawful Good: Person A is guilty of murder, and punished, using the minimum allowed by the law.

Neutral Good: Person A is guilty of murder, but punished very lightly, more lightly than 'legal' under the law by utilizing loopholes.

Chaotic Good: Person A is guilty of murder, but seems to be a good person, and the law really doesn't cover this kind of situation. If person A is punished at all, it's most likely a slap on the wrist or some other very minor, minor punishment.

Also in CG societies, I have a feeling community service is more often a punishment than flat out imprisonment.

[Fraz-Urb'luu]

I don't think that there has been any change on Haley's alignment. It's possible, but I don't think that Haley would/could/should become lawful.

[Schala]

Except... Belkar is still CE as far as we know.

I'm pretty sure that he is. As was stated previously, most likely the only reason he is helping at all is to eventually get the Mark of Justice off of him.

As for Haley, it seems that the debate has turned from whether she is turning to LG, to whether she was CG in the first place. I think to figure out the answer to this debate is to look at her motivation behind her actions. Is she leading the freedom fighters because it's something she believes in (which would be more CG/LG) or is she doing it because it is essential for her survival (more CN)?

[Spiky]

I honestly can't see how rebellion is chaotic when you're trying to replace one lawful society with another. Especially when the one you're trying to put in was already there before.

Who says that's what Haley's doing? Why do you assume she is changing personality/alignment, there's no evidence of that. She is fighting a chaotic war, and she has a chaotic history. Where's the lawful?

I'll lay any odds she doesn't give a damn about the lawful part of AC, only the good part.

[North]

If she was CG in the first place. Hasnt she hussled her own team enough out of gold or items to justify CG?

[monty]

Who says that's what Haley's doing? Why do you assume she is changing personality/alignment, there's no evidence of that. She is fighting a chaotic war, and she has a chaotic history. Where's the lawful?

I'll lay any odds she doesn't give a damn about the lawful part of AC, only the good part.

I didn't say that was her intent. I said that was the purpose of the rebellion. My point was that rebellion is not chaotic, not that Haley isn't.

[Ranthog]

Her actions would not imply any changes in alignment, especially if she cannot escape the city with Roy's body. A strong resistance movement would hence be in her own personal interests and not necessarily good or evil.

Alignment is about intent and purpose. It is quite possible for an NN or a CE or LE to be doing exactly what Haley is doing. Its all a matter of what their personal stake and what their lawful tendencies are aligned with (personal vs outside influence).

The comic has not given us any real circumstances on the situation.

[JonathanC]

Or at least Neutral Good? By creating a fairly effective resistance movement in just three months, Haley has shown organizational as well as leadership skills. And now she's unwilling to sacrifice one of her comrades because of a guilty conscience. That much responsibility doesn't appear chaotic to me. Do you think she'll move from CG to a more lawful alignment?

It's a resistance movement. Fighting tyranny is basically the definition of Chaotic Good. Lawful Good characters would be more likely to try to fight tyranny within the system, or if that isn't possible, raise an army to fight a more direct war (which is, incidentally, what the Paladins are planning to do). Chaotic characters do not cease being chaotic simply from organizing into groups...otherwise there would be no chaotic PCs, since they almost always fall into adventuring parties. And I don't know about your groups, but every group of PCs I've seen coordinate tactics rather effectively.